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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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What is happening sociologically when radlib Leftoids in circles stuffed with permagrads endlessly go on about muh 'Strasserism' or 'NazBols'? Here's an answer that may be a bitter pill for some of you, because the Left rarely likes to use its own tools of class analyses on itself

https://tinkzorg.wordpress.com/2020/05/07/on-strasserism-and-the-decay-of-the-left/

>>2749726
>the heckin proles are racist and the heckin PMC leftists are out of touch by not being racist
this essay could have been a stonetoss comic

>>2749738
whitest strasserite

>>2749740
so is alex karp

acp thread

>>2749744
>feminism
woke, idpol, PMC

nationalism is bourugeois, you can't mix it with marxism, you are stupid


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>>2749737
He used to go by Tinkzorg. Is he Juche Respector now? I remember him getting butthurt about National Guard deployments in D.C. after J6.

>>2749726
2008 - universal healthcare is Stalin, 2016 - healthcare is Strasser. System doesn't want you to have cheaper healthcare it's a trillion dollar industry simple as.

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I cringe every time when I see strasserism being described as a "chauvinist" form of "socialism". Strasserism is actually a more reactionary tendency of Naziism. It actually fits Marx's definition of feudal socialism in the Communist manifesto.

To take quote the Essay "The Myth of Strasserite Socialism"

>Discussing at some length. Otto defines his ideological vision as distinct from fascism, capitalism, and communism, which he all judges to be totalitarian.


>His vision was patriarchal, neo feudalist, decentralised, and above all contradictory. It is an awkward mixture of petti bourgeois socialism, pseudo feudalist, and federalist beliefs. Otto makes a distinction between private property ( Eigentum ), which he rejects, and possession Besitz ). Otto defined possession of a thing as usufruct. Based on this definition, an individual was entitled to the use of a thing but does not possess ownership of it. Rather than being allowed to sell to destroy a thing, he ma de use of it und er the supervision of another. The German community was to have sole ownership of the national economy, but in contrast to a command economy the state was not to supposed to run it. Instead, the national economy would be split into different portions and h anded over as an “entail” to different individuals and groups. Otto consider ed this the ideal fusion of general welfare and private initiative. In his manifesto he accused the capitalist system of being responsible for the destructive effects of bureaucratisation and the rise of monopolies, which had led to the “cancer” of proletarianisation, whose “ghastly cultural effects” could not be overcome by establishing a bureaucratic command economy. Here, the manifesto rejects the notion of collectivisation of the peasantry, such as it was practiced in the Soviet Union.



>Ironically, the supposed socialist is highly antiproletarian, seeking to deproletarianise the

proletariat and establish a utopian, neo feudal order that will somehow function without hereditary nobles. In that regard, the assumption that he rejected the N Nazis’ compromise with the old elites is accurate. However, far from taking over the means of production, the workers are supposed to be “rescued” from the “urban Moloch” Otto so detest ed by being turned into landed peasants and craftsmen. This must go hand in hand with a policy of deurbanisation. He openly calls for the reagrarianisation of Germany. Otto argued that being part of the proletariat is incompatible with independence and that it must be the mission of the regime to find possessions for every German.

>radlib Leftoids in circles stuffed with permagrads
Deactivate you twitter account (including the gooning side account), you're obsessing over a demographic of 12 or so total.

>>2749766
Fake history
>We will have to develop the idea of combining a healthy, properly understood nationalism with proletarian internationalism. Proletarian internationalism should be grounded in such a nationalism in the individual countries. Comrade Stalin made it clear that between nationalism properly understood and proletarian internationalism there can be no contradictions. Rootless cosmopolitanism that denies national feelings and the notion of a homeland has nothing in common with proletarian internationalism. Such cosmopolitanism paves the way for the recruitment of spies

I will pick a guy like Boleslaw Piasecki any day over a rat bastard traitor like Mieczyslaw Rakowski

>>2750288
minority inside a minority inside a minority fighting about a minority inside a minority inside a minority
left wing ideological clash

>>2752317
>Stalin
Kill yourself you jewish negro

>>2749745
scp thread

>>2749973
Correct take

>>2750008
Wow what a socialist

>>2752317
and where'd this lead?

>>2750008
strasser crawled so pol pot could walk with a limp

>>2750008
Based as fuck I believe this unironically
Take me home

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>>2749726
some scattered thoughts:

because higher education enrollment has increased over time in almost every first world country, this whole thing is engaged in an unspoken compositional fallacy. the "middle class" people referred to as involved in the DSA (or, one suspects, the British Greens or similar) are in fact working class people who've attained "middle class" coded traits like university education or not working in heavy industry as a result of other societal changes. (We will leave aside that "middle class" is a joke category split between proletarians and petit-bourgeoise, or, indeed, that many petit-bourgoise are "working class coded")

the idea that identity politics repels "workers" has also proven fallacious. on the contrary, people love identity politics. those put off by identity politics of the liberal left generally find themselves comfortable with the identity politics of the right. those incensed that you're proud to be black are usually themselves proud to be white, or at least, wish to be told that they should be proud to be white. what such an outlook really shows is that the left is alienated from "workers" for a different reason: because it imagines a certain fixed image of a worker, in his hard hat, at his factory. a starbucks barista on minimum wage? she's not a worker, she's just some middle class woman. what's she going to do? anyway, we should find positions that repel her and attract the bloke in the hard hat.
(this comes up in the thing itself. a "middle class graduate forced to work in a grocery store" is a grocery store worker, you don't get magic not-real-working-class points for resenting it, or for thinking that a university degree would've got you something better! marx didn't have a cutout for you to be bourgeoise if you regard yourself as a temporarily embarrassed millionaire!)

the article's view on why Corbyn lost is also flawed. Corbyn didn't lose the working poor, he lost the old. Every age group under 40 voted more strongly for Labour than for the Conservatives. (Chart 1) The article talks about how he alienated the working poor by promising free shit (no?), but doesn't touch on the central thing that blew up their campaign: Brexit. (Which, incidentally, was also not driven by the working poor as such. It was driven by the best-off people in the worst-off communities. e.g. old buy-to-let retirees, etc.) That is to say, the class element is overhyped.

incidentally: chart related. in the UK, in the 18-34 age range, those in "routine" occupations record the highest levels of green (e.g. lib-left) support. that is to say, if you're a 30 year old office manager, you are less likely to vote green than if you're a 30 year old cleaner.
(we might also add: Labour in power under Keir Starmer tried precisely this kind of socially conservative, anti-immigration, workerist tilt, based on the theory they needed to win back all the hard-hat wearing manual workers they supposedly lost in 2019… the result is that the Labour party is now polling in the death zone because they've bled their actually-existing young, educated support base without picking up any of the 50 year olds who actually vote Reform.)

>The 2020’s will be the decade where more of these figures – people like Sahra Wagenknecht and all the other good socialists who have been vilified and discarded by the liberal left – will return to haunt our political stage once again, and it will be the decade where the left discovers that its own class base is just too weak and small to achieve political power in the face of the angry working class it now fears and despises.

aged like milk since BSW deservedly ate shit at the last election, and ultimately flawed on its own terms: even if we accept the argument that there's some big evil PMC left of downwardly mobile graduates, that group is growing over time while the "traditional" working class is shrinking. every time the daughter of a coal miner goes to university and comes back disappointed she's still got to work in Tesco Grimton she's transmuted under this scheme from lovable worker ('s wife) to a PMC rogue!

anyway, here's my take: people vote based on their dispositions and political parties are an identity-commodity like any other. this is of limited relevance to revolutionary marxists (as marxists anyway - you can quickly see when someone's policy positions are really a matter of disposition. e.g. i don't care about immigration, but i am anti-anti immigration…), except that it lets you see opinion polls as the personality-polls that they are. when you see a lib-left person, instead of thinking "middle class graduates" (wrong) you can think "high openness, high agreeableness, high neuroticism, dislikes social gradation / aesthetically egalitarian", when you see right-wing voters, you can similarly go: low openness, low agreeableness, possibly low neuroticism, and enjoys social gradation. universities are one of many environments that produce this kind of dispositional shift, and with it, shifting voting behaviors. other changing dynamics explain changes on the right, with the old, etc.
for example: the internet allows a free market in nonsense content. the old narrative says that fox news mislead people, which is why they vote republican. i put to you that instead, certain people are drawn to misleading content based on their general disposition - they wish, for example, to read about migrant crimes - and while in the old days fox news was restrained to merely misleading or sensationalistic reporting, today the free market allows people in the market for such stories to read ones that were made up whole cloth by an enterprising indian. that same disposition leads them to vote republican. (and, perhaps, leads them to not read. more liberals read fox news's website than republicans - republicans watch TV and listen to podcasts! or perhaps reading is a PMC affectation, and real proles are illiterate?)

this also explains why many right wing "nationalist" parties are really the local Trump fan club: because they're selecting for the disposition of the kind of person drawn to Trump and the revulsion he causes respectable people, rather than a meaningful ideological or class-based program. The Tories in Britain are currently making the same "ideological" mistake as Labour, alienating their actually-existing wealthy professional supporters by churning out low-rent Trumpslop to win back the voters who left them for Reform. in fairness, it worked for them in 2017 and 2019 back when Corbyn was there to spook the rich, but now all it does is put up a big banner that says the Tories are not a party for respectable bourgeois people (their traditional self image.), they're a party for yankified louts, or upper-class wankers cosplaying as yankified louts while eying a Reform defection if polls don't turn around soon.

most "PMC" aren't PMC, you just don't like young people. insofar as there is a PMC it is merely insufferable while "populists" against them are driven by man's most base instincts towards cruelty and spite and are - at the risk of sounding hysterical - against the very concept of civilization itself. show me a reform voter and i will show you either an imbecile or a bastard.

Proles don't want to be replaced, they want the ethnic and religious composition of their country to be constant. Simple as that.

Would Chinese be happy if 500 million Indians and Africans immigrated to it? Why doesn't Cuba open it's borders to millions of Haitians who would love to live in it? Why does Venezuela close it's borders to poor Guyanese, Surnimaese, Guatemalans etc? Why doesn't Vietnam allow millions of Indonesians and Filipinos to immigrate? Why doesnt Iran allow millions of Afgans and Pakistanies to immigrate?

Etc etc, the Left will never win if they ignore this reality. But this is all academic of course. The purpose of a thing is what it does : the purpose of the Western Left isn't to win, it's to destroy any kind of sane and consistent communist movement by absorbing potential communists into its retarded self-defeating ideologies.

>>2755878
>for communism to win proles need to be "replaced"
you are a fucking retard

>>2749726
>PMCs as political actors is a blend of political liberalism and cultural progressivism, merged with a political project aimed at increasingly subsidizing their own reproduction as a class, ideally by means of state transfers. The state should forgive student debt. The state should dabble in reparations. The state should hire ”ideas people” to write up reports and thinkpieces about reparations. The state should create new racial justice commissions
Sounds like a strawman.
The whole thing is very confused. PMC is by definition part of the working class. It may be a very unreliable part of it, but they are people who earn a living on a wage. They don't appropriate workers' value, in fact, the value PMCs create is appropriated by capital too. The idea that there is an irreconcilable contradiction between people who want to lower the cost of living and people who want wages to rise is the most moronic thing though, because these two things are the same. Both are necessary. AES put just as much, if not more effort into reducing the cost of goods as raising wages.

>>2749726
Illiteracy actually has nothing to do with whether you own capital or not. Literal fucking kings used to be illiterate. Really what is being discussed is the growing reactionary nature of the capitalist class and the growing progressiveness of the workers. Eventually the capitalists will be stupid filthy drunks, primitive savages, and the workers will be sensible sorts.

nazbol is the brony of political ideologies
started as a joke but now demands to be taken seriously
how about fuck off

>>2755878
  1. lots of policies that the public don't want are implemented. the basic instinct behind the very conception that allowing people to move around constitutes "being replaced" is reactionary and immoral.
  2. millions of people should not live in dire poverty, and the world should not be robbed of the positive results of their labor, simply because you don't like to see ethnic food stores and brown faces.
  3. why, applying the opposite principle, stop at the national level? why should (say) a small english village accept an influx of city people engaged in white flight? why should that town, too, not have veto power and say: "no, you city folk will not replace us!"
  4. every nationally-specific example rests on the basic fallacy that one country, and only one country, opens its borders. (and never, incidentally, the US - both the world superpower, and the shining example of a country that used to take most people from most places) were one to open all the borders at once, the population could redistribute in a more agreeable way.
5. in a grotesque second best, you could also always simply restrict citizenship rights while allowing free movement of labor. there are many moral problems with this, yes, but you'd at least make the poorest better off.

>>2749889
Yeah that's him, odd fellow. He is much more sympathetic now than he used to be when he tried to make it as an anti-woke columnist however but i cant teally tell what his deal is.

>>2755878
It's true but without mass automation it wont be possible to maintain a relative upward class mobility or even wage growth without importing millions of people. And most whites, even far-righters, dont want their bloodlines to be serf forever so…

>>2755464
>the idea that identity politics repels "workers" has also proven fallacious. on the contrary, people love identity politics. those put off by identity politics of the liberal left generally find themselves comfortable with the identity politics of the right. those incensed that you're proud to be black are usually themselves proud to be white, or at least, wish to be told that they should be proud to be white.
I wouldn't say the argument is that identity politics is necessarily repellent to workers as individuals, though. Racial pride is obviously "attractive" for some in some sense and not always for the same reasons, but having people organized in terms of identity (as the Black Pride Socialist League, the White Pride Communist Front, etc.) seems counterproductive to collective worker organization and joint action. Really, it sounds like a recipe for toxicity and rancor.

Of course, the example is extreme, but just because people might be attracted to identity politics doesn't say anything about its place in socialism. I don't find the "tu quoque" argument (and bare assertion) of "well, you must support right-wing idpol if you don't like it" very convincing either.

>what such an outlook really shows is that the left is alienated from "workers" for a different reason: because it imagines a certain fixed image of a worker, in his hard hat, at his factory. a starbucks barista on minimum wage? she's not a worker, she's just some middle class woman. what's she going to do? anyway, we should find positions that repel her and attract the bloke in the hard hat.

I've heard this argument off and on for a number of years, but if this sort of "narrow" view of workers had a significant following and a substantial effect on the left in aggregate (I don't think so myself), you'd think that other groups with different views would have had extensive growth and led to a revival of the left at some point in the past decade, but no such thing has happened.

The alienation of the left from workers is more likely related to the general decline of political party participation, even though political stances have become increasingly central to how people identify themselves.


>>2765394
I actually completely wrote a whole big thesis but the janny feds deleted it I swear to God.

>>2749726
I actually agree with a lot of this. Did you write it? But there are some key differences.

1: The right does it too. There's the class you claim to be, the class people see you as, and the class you act upon and internally recognize yourself as. If you actually care about any of this; you are not proletariat. You're petty bourgeois middle class. Third worldists are right about that. What they're not right about is how this interacts with such people.

Most aren't willing to admit leftism is synopsis with nihilism. For me to care about stability, I have to have class interest in that stability. That's why liberals can speak all day long about building cheap housing for inner city folks, and it means nothing. Cheapening goods and services means nothing. You think I care about any of that? Why do you unless you have a vested interest in it?

Let's take for example ice. Ice is le'bad. Just grabbing Latinx and throwing them in vans. Bad stuff. Ok…and? Lots of things are bad. Bad stuff happens to me every day. Why is it my responsibility to care? Because I'm a good person? Why is it my responsibility to be a good person?

It isn't. It's bullshit the other class interests invented. And you acknowledge this and think it means I want them out of my country. I don't as see…that's also not in my class interests. The contradiction of capital is some need those Latinx around working for cheap, others see them as an existential threat. The only thing I see is how upset the situation makes people when I'm not the one working, I'm not the one having sex with some 6/10 Mexicana Trotskyist named Pumfee, I'm not the one who is getting shit out of this. In essence I am the real proletariat and for me this just looks like a purple haired woke gorilla rubbing herself up against an ice agent molesting him and it's all very funny, but ultimately just distraction.

The fact of the matter is, if either side got it's way, my life does not significantly change. The only real leftist position is hoping the lights go out. No hospital care, no food in grocery stores, no gas to drive with, no hope left. Everyone is dead or just wishes they were dead. If that physically repulses you, you have petty bourgeois vested interests.

>>2765371
>you'd think that other groups with different views would have had extensive growth and led to a revival of the left at some point in the past decade, but no such thing has happened.
the group in question is the actually-existing left outside /leftypol/ and a handful of cult parties and boomers. blue haired starbucks union member furries who proclaim a belief in a nebulously defined socialism.


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