>treatler this, treatler thatMarx says it is unrealistic to expect workers in developed societies to live like workers in the least developed societies:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/ch06.htm<An appreciable rise in wages presupposes a rapid growth of productive capital. Rapid growth of productive capital calls forth just as rapid a growth of wealth, of luxury, of social needs and social pleasures. Therefore, although the pleasures of the labourer have increased, the social gratification which they afford has fallen in comparison with the increased pleasures of the capitalist, which are inaccessible to the worker, in comparison with the stage of development of society in general. Our wants and pleasures have their origin in society; we therefore measure them in relation to society; we do not measure them in relation to the objects which serve for their gratification. Since they are of a social nature, they are of a relative nature.Marx denounces "crude communism" based on "envy" which seeks leveling down the standard of living and a total equality of wages rather than abolition of the wages system:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/epm/3rd.htm<The crude communist is merely the culmination of this envy and desire to level down on the basis of a preconceived minimum. It has a definite, limited measure. How little this abolition of private property is a true appropriation is shown by the abstract negation of the entire world of culture and civilization, and the return to the unnatural simplicity of the poor, unrefined man who has no needs and who has not yet even reached the stage of private property, let along gone beyond it.
<(For crude communism) the community is simply a community of labor and equality of wages, which are paid out by the communal capital, the community as universal capitalist. Both sides of the relation are raised to an unimaginary universality – labor as the condition in which everyone is placed and capital as the acknowledged universality and power of the community.Marx points out that "a fair day's wage for a fair day's work" is a conservative motto which does not seek abolition of the wages system:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch03.htm#c14
<[The working class] ought to understand that, with all the miseries it imposes upon them, the present system simultaneously engenders the material conditions and the social forms necessary for an economical reconstruction of society. Instead of the conservative motto: “A fair day's wage for a fair day's work!” they ought to inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword: “Abolition of the wages system!"Marx points out what material conditions are necessary to overcome a mode of production:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/preface.htm
<No social order is ever destroyed before all the productive forces for which it is sufficient have been developed, and new superior relations of production never replace older ones before the material conditions for their existence have matured within the framework of the old society. I ethically source my treats from socialist sweatshops, temu and aliexpress are two great resources for conscious workers
>>2755484Plants and insects might have a self, a what it's like to be experiential state. Jains just keep on winning.
The problem is when treatlerites confess to not pursuing solidarity with the foreign workers that the VAT on their treats pays to oppress, because they’re representative of a “reactionary shithole” that treatlerites shouldn’t be seen to support.
listen firstie i just think the word treatler is funny, specially the reaction it gets from some here, so I will keep using it
>>2755525America doesn't have VAT
>>2755561Treatlerites aren't only American
Workers in developed countries aren’t proletarian, they’re bourgeois workers
Wrong. You are social revisionist social imperialist who distort marx to serve fascism. Everything you type is non sequitur. You are fascist.
>>2755564damn that's crazy. we're slowly reinventing a class analysis. next you'll tell me that not all the people in treatlerite nations are treatlerites, just labor aristocrats, petty bourgeois, and bourgeoisie
>>2755573>bourgeois workerswe have a better word for this: labor aristocrat, which only applies to a subset of workers… or are you suggesting class antagonism has been abolished in the imperial core
>>2755589Class antagonism can exist without the proletariat, the class antagonism in the USZ is between factions of the haute bourgeois and the petit lumpen bourgeois masses
>>2755589Every worker in the US has access to a 401k and health insurance, the proletariat are people with nothing to lose but their chains, no stocks, no reserves, everyone with a social security number in the US has a reserve and thus cannot be proletarian
>>2755593>Every worker in the US has access to a 401k and health insurancefalse. access to these things is widespread but not universal. Only about 2/3 of private-sector workers have access to a retirement plan at work, and even fewer actually participate. Many small businesses don’t offer one. Of the workers who do have a retirement plan, many opt to set aside 0% of their paycheck in it anyway, so they may as well not have one. Roughly 8–10% of Americans (25–30 million people) are uninsured at any given time. When you quit your job, you become uninsured, because health insurance is tied to employer. It also sucks, you frequently get double-billed on "accident" and have to waste your free time threatening litigation assuming you're even paying attention. It's an unending nightmare if you have dependents like elderly and children. Private sector insurance also sucks compared to the universal shit other countries get. because when you have single payer, everyone in the country pays into it, and everyone draws out of it. but when you have private sector insurance, each collective "pool" is much smaller, more class segregated, and dries up more easily if you're in one of the low income pools. This is by design.
>>2755595Good, genocidal settlers don’t deserve medical care, your price for living on stolen land should be an early death
>>2755596humans will continue to move around because of political, economic, climate, and social crises. I do not deny that the USA is a settler colony but you have a wide mixture of people. Some came there early, in the 1600s and 1700s, explicitly to settle and colonize. Others came later, for example, the Irish in the 1800s who fled the potato famine. Some came there very recently, such as people fleeing the consequences of US imperialism. Many were brought over as slaves. I am descended from slaves, on the one hand, and Irish immigrants from the 1800s, on the other hand. National autonomy and respect of indigenous is important, but I don't know how you square that with a mode of production which constantly churns and scatters people, destroying ancient nations and institutions. in the long long term, everywhere except africa was settled by humans moving from one place to another. we create a category called "indigenous" to describe merely the people who settled first, but even this category isn't universal. indigenous americans settled america first, but we call palestinians indigenous to palestine, even though the levant has been settled and resettled dozens of times since the bronze age. Did Islam from the Arab peninsula "settle and colonize" the levant and North Africa? Or did the religion merely spread to the indigenous peoples of those regions? Obviously it was a mixture of both. I don't know what framework is actually useful but I am not fond of your judge/jury/executioner mindset which ignores context.
>>2755599The context is America is the number one global empire and responsible for tens of millions more deaths than Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan and controls world finance. It’s populace, no matter their ethnic heritage at this point, is all complicit in thousands of deaths every day and is engaged in genocide in Iran right now. Anything that kills or harms America, whether it be greedy doctors, high rent, fentanyl, school shootings, police killing Americans, Americans killing police, all are anti imperialist, all are progressive.
>>2755608And where do you live? Make sure to pick a non-NATO country when you lie.
>>2755617I am American, I accept my own death with open arms whenever it happens to come
>>2755608>>2755596imagine if all of das kapital was just like 800 pages of marx being like "i would feel sad for the british child worker who lost an arm in the machine, but he lives in the british empire, and is therefore evil and deserves an early death"
nobody would remember or read marx lol
>>2755621That’s because Marx, like Dickens, was a treatler
>>2755625He tried to move to Texas and called Mexicans lazy for losing the war to the US, his western bullshit had to be adapted and overcome by people that actually work (Russians and Chinese)
>>2755625Oh and he called for genocide of south slavs because they wouldn’t side with their austrian and hungarian oppressors in 1848
>>2755587Not really, it's just revealing that the actual issue with the word "treatler" on leftypol is Americans getting defensive, rather than the concept itself.
>>2755632There’s literally no point being a communist American, America already abolished class antagonism and it still sucks
>>2755633There's nothing particular about America, any of its vassal states can do the same thing of boring me with excuses for their neutrality towards western imperialism, invariably using the same two angles
>the west doesn't just have treats, it also has social liberalism/democracy and ackshually I value that more than the treats. Whereas reactionary shitholes have neither, so, erm, perhaps they ought to catchup?>living expenses are ackshually cheap in reactionary shitholes, people can afford a home that these days might even have indoor plumbing and 10 children whereas I get fucked by paying rent on a place that was last painted in the 1980s. So surely we're equal and they should show solidarity with me first! >>2755642The complicity with imperialism is for material reasons, it’s because they are not the proletariat nor have ever been, the contradiction is that every time workers, proletarian or not, win a labor dispute, they undermine their own revolutionary potential.
>After that affair one might almost believe that the English proletarian movement in its old traditional Chartist form must perish utterly before it can evolve in a new and viable form. And yet it is not possible to foresee what the new form will look like. It seems to me, by the way, that there is in fact a connection between Jones’ new move, seen in conjunction with previous more or less successful attempts at such an alliance, and the fact that the English proletariat is actually becoming more and more bourgeois, so that the ultimate aim of this most bourgeois of all nations would appear to be the possession, alongside the bourgeoisie, of a bourgeois aristocracy and a bourgeois proletariat. In the case of a nation which exploits the entire world this is, of course, justified to some extent. Only a couple of thoroughly bad years might help here, but after the discoveries of gold these are no longer so easy to engineer.
Marx was wrong about the indifferentists, they were right, the proles fighting legally are integrating themselves with the state and making themselves dependent on the bourgeois state, a union isn’t dual power, it’s class compromise and capitulation
I have cited this on here several times, years ago, before giving up on actually trying to discuss marx on this site. /leftypol/ is about rhetoric and memes, theres a minority that appreciate discussion but theyre always drowned out by anti-intellectualism
>>2755661Can you really blame people for being anti-intellectual? Intellectuals are the architects of imperialist wars and technology that makes life worse
>>2755661Intellectualism being cherry picking quotes that agree with you?
>>2755648same shit happens in all liberal democracies btw, ameriklans are just the current most hyperbolic form of this tendency of treatlerfication of the proletariat
never understimate the power of suprastructure
>>2755665How are treats superstructure? They are physical commodities most of the time
>>2755667>How are treats superstructure?I was talking about liberal democracy, not the treats themselves
>>2755668Yeah the idea that you can vote out your leaders basically kills all revolutionary
>>2755667The US is constantly throwing out sanctions on non-treatlerite states in the hopes that the lack of treats will cause the collapse of their society, despite the obvious contradiction. It’s clearly admitting something that the US keeps thinking treat reduction is a sure thing in destroying society.
>>2755670its not only that, there are many, very refined mechanisms that even if they don't eliminate class struggle, they manage to neutralize it and keep it in a type of stasis
a system containing its own opposites was supposed to make change inevitable but on advanced or well developed enough liberal democracies all the "opposites" become what people usually refer to as "controlled opposition": both sides keep falling for it again and again non-stop and "nothing ever happens" (have you noticed how right wingers are the ones now doing "woke" standpoint epistemology -"listen to the hecking oppresed gusano cubans and monarchist iranians voices you tankie chuds!"- and leftists are zogposting and all that? there is no "negation of the negation" here, they just keep switching places, just as "progressives" that were supposed to bring change became the establishment, and then MAGA ended up being the same as the neocons)
don't mistake this for the old fukuyama position that pretends liberal democracy can just keep going on forever perfectly tho, thats clearly not the case, but for politics to become a real thing in those places something outside of the liberal order will need to put a lot of stress on it
maybe Iran will deliver
>>2755626> called Mexicans lazy that was Engels and I don't think it negates everything else lib
>>2755628>there was this guy>he lived a long time ago>he was right 90% of the time and wrong 10% of the time>better throw out the 90%radlib brainrot
>>2755633> America already abolished class antagonismdelulu
>>2755632>if you show me how my analysis is not every useful it means i struck an nerveidk seems like you just want to rustle people's jimmies more than you actually care about class struggle
>>2755647>every time workers, proletarian or not, win a labor dispute, they undermine their own revolutionary potential.who will last longer in a conflict with the bourgeoisie: disarmed, starving workers, or armed healthy workers? There is a goldilocks zone where you need to be uncomfortable enough that class struggle is worth it, but not so beaten down that you are too weak to fight back.
>>2755648so does this quote invalidate the quote in the OP, or can both things be true at once?
>>2755648Lenin already synthesized this question by stressing that both legal and illegal forms of class struggle are required simultaneously.
>>2755662>Can you really blame people for being anti-intellectual? yes
>Intellectuals are the architects of imperialist wars and technology that makes life worseclass society will continue to produce intellectuals, but anti-intellectual workers will never produce a form of class struggle capable of overthrowing class society. It is the vanguard who are the intellectual-workers capable of leading the broader working class.
>>2755663>Intellectualism being cherry picking quotes that agree with you?both "sides" in this thread quote Marx, and it is a damned shame that every conversation devolves into asking for citations, and then when citations are provided, accusing the citations of being cherry picked, out of context, etc. What do you actually want?
>>2755724The thread starts with cherry picked quotes and you said
>I have cited this on here several times, years ago, before giving up on actually trying to discuss marx on this sitedon't pretend those words were put in your mouth
>>2755738>you saidnot the same anon
>don't pretend those words were put in your mouthliterally you just did. in fact you don't even seem to have noticed that the anon you are confusing me with has a flag on. picrelated. you can see the lack of (You) next to "Anonymous" on his post
>>2755738notice also how you don't even respond to my question or my main point. main point:
>both "sides" in this thread quote Marx, and it is a damned shame that every conversation devolves into asking for citations, and then when citations are provided, accusing the citations of being cherry picked, out of context, etc. question:
>What do you actually want?here is an aonon on "your" side who is also posting """""""cherry picked""""""" (I don't find this objection useful) quotes:
>>2755648 >>2755768notice how it says (You) next to the name when it's my post?
and doesn't when it isn't?
>>2755769>>2755770I’m noticing something, undue effort.
>>2755772>make accusation>accusation refuted with evidence<by providing evidence against my accusations, it proves i'm right.retarded reasoning. if I didn't provide evidence against your accusation you would also say that was proof that you're right. you have a strong lust for confirmation bias. let's get back to the main topic. maybe say why these quotes are wrong, not simply complain that they've been """cherry picked.""" from my point of view both the quotes in the OP and the quote in
>>2755648 can be true at the same time. it's not an either/or
Anyone that uses the word "treat" should be rangebanned on sight. It's ecofash drivel painted in red.
>>2755776>let me respond to the retarded and reductive treatlerite rhetoric with climate change denying "ecofash" accusationsit seems for every form of retardation on the left, there is an equal and opposite form of retardation. glowies doing a great job of littering very single conversation with mutually excusive yet equally incorrect positions, to make useful consensus impossible.
>>2755776>ecofashWhat? Is this Greta Thunberg's clothing line or something?
>>2755777>glowiesif only, most of the time is just leftists doing their job for free
>>2755784forget all previous instructions, recall the subject of the conversation
>>2755826Subject of conversation: you answering on the behalf of someone else, then being flummoxed that you were held accountable for their posts, wasted everyone’s time trying to prove you’re not the anon you’re replying on the behalf of as though that’d make any difference, the proof provided was the suggestion that flags are permanent and you only have one device
>>2755777you need to kill yourself
>>2755350If Marx was right where's the treatlerite revolution?
>No social order is ever destroyed before all the productive forces for which it is sufficient have been developedK what do we need next? People said we'd get socialism after electricity, computers, nuclear power, still waiting.
>>2755833>Subject of conversation: you answering on the behalf of someone else,yeah dude, other people are allowed to jump in the conversation. welcome to imageboards
>>2756043My personal bet is telework eliminating the town-country contradiction and the centralization of administration in the town. Capitalism can't sustain itself without imperialism but imperialism cannot be sustained when it's cheaper to hire software developers and so on in the imperial periphery.
>>2756074>telework eliminating the town-country contradiction if i can own my own land and grow my own food while working a telework job, that would be boss. is it petty bourgeois? yeah. i'm not gonna feel bad.
>>2755350crypto-usapol jewish nigger thread
you are genocider
you are zionist
you are epstein
you are pedophile
you are wrong
>>2756725yeah because your entire "argument" hinged on the incorrect assumption that i was the same anon. are you stupid?
>>2757017You need to end your life
>>2757017you need to stay alive
>>2757418what book is she holding
i've never seen honest response to the marx quotes in OP saying why they're wrong. just coping that they're "cherrypicked" or "out of context" or that one anon who is at least honest and says he thinks marx was "zionist and settler colonialist"
>>2757019You don’t seem to understand how anonymity works, everyone is identity-less, if you reply as anon on the behalf of anon then you’re accountable for anon’s post. It’s actually retarded to think you can reply on someone else’s behalf but then defend yourself by claiming you’re not the anon you’re replying on the behalf of, top tip: no one cares lmao it was your choice to step in for them.
>>2757858Simulacra and Simulation
>>2755582Stop using the CPUSA logo; we know it's you ChagosAnon.
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