No.484498[View All]
Previous thread ( >>210868 ) hit bump limit.
We scientific (STEM) socialism here.
READINGhttp://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/For a complete reading list, see:
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2020/05/01/two-reading-lists/Cockshott's Patreonhttps://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/Cockshott's youtube channelhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQCockshott's Blogshttps://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/http://paulcockshott.co.uk/Cockshott's videos torrent archiveHere's the torrent with all of Paul Cockshott's YouTube channel videos up to 27/10/2020 (i.e. Eliminating inequality):
Magnet link:
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:d5e5cc7a91228fef2ea213f816b27cfea8185961&dn=Paul%5FCockshott%5F%28October%5F27th%5F2020%29&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.opentrackr.org%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.to%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.me%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.internetwarriors.net%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.leechers-paradise.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.cyberia.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fexodus.desync.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fexplodie.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fp4p.arenabg.ch%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker1.itzmx.com%3A8080%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker3.itzmx.com%3A6961%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.zerobytes.xyz%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.tiny-vps.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ds.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.si%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.torrent.eu.org%3A451%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fretracker.lanta-net.ru%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fopen.acgnxtracker.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.moeking.me%3A6969%2Fannounce
Torrent file:
https://anonymousfiles.io/RileL0Sn/This thread is for the discussion of cybersocialism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and of course the great immortal scientist himself, WILLIAM PAUL COCKSHOTT.
Archives of previous thread 1)
https://archive.is/uNCEY2)
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html3)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1092975361You can make webm related real by contacting Ck on his Facebook or YT channel. No.485061
>>485060>I find it hard to believe that a science unable to predict its own economic crises is really so rigorous and advancedI mean yeah. bourgeois political economy exists to prop up the current state of affairs, not to actually understand, critique and surpass it
some neoclassical/Keynesian thought has shades of cybernetics, like how the economy can be steered with taxes. but they're still hampered by the need to defend porky
>Also, how many of you guys in here are non-STEM?I'm a huge STEM lord. not sure about the others
also Victor Magariño is a treasure
No.485062
>>485060alot of those guys and the ones on places like /r/neoliberal are really posturing pseuds who pretend they understand Marx or Economics when they don't.
No.485063
y'know i've been wondering about something, in an capitalist market economy, where the account of price is supply and demand, if i where to want something to be free, and where to reduce demand and increase production to raise production untill supply is high enough, what would happen ?.
No.485064
>>485062>/r/neoliberalI had to go and have another look at that place and found this:
https://i.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/qr5ruf/the_world_is_fed_up_with_chinas_belligerence/>Now China just picks fights out of arrogance and bullying>[Xi's] policy shift doesn’t seem calculated in the way I envision world leaders calculating>The future was China's for the taking, but I guess Xi wanted to seize the whole world himself>When China lashed out with trade attacks over Australia said we should investigate COVID origins it became very clear that appeasement was going to become expensiveit's afraid
>>485063this question fits better in a separate thread I think. but I'll bite
>if i where to want something to be freeevery single thing useful to humans requires labour anon. nothing is free
>what would happen ?you'd go out of business
No.485065
>>485064when i mean free i mean a product, let's say for the conversation it's toilet paper.
let's also say i'm bezos rich so money is not a problem
so, it is possible, through messing with supply and demand to make TP free ?.
No.485066
>>485065I'm confused why you would want to continue making anything that was in such abundance as to be literally worthless.
No.485067
>>485066worthless to make money, but it's function still stands, as for the reason, while walking home i tought about a situation where the supply/demand of a market would result in the need to change to a planned economy just because someone cheated it enough to subsitise social programs.
No.485068
>>485065people like Bezos aren't communists, for obvious reasons. I don't even understand what you want said with this. you can buy and give TP to people if you want. but the value of TP will always be non-zero, it will always take some amount of labour to make it
in a socialist economy we could decide to make machines that are even better at making TP than what we have now, lowering the value of TP to far below where it would be profitable. or better yet
install bidets in every home so TP becomes unnecessary No.485069
>>485067I feel like by the time you made that much toilet paper it would be basically useless just because there wouldn't be a good place to store it all
No.485070
>>485069how about you store it
up your butt! No.485071
Can Cockshott not simulate an economy like a video game would?
No.485073
>>485071wdym? we could use model economies and apply planning to them. that's a thing Starcraft bots do
No.485074
>>484948yeah, I read this years ago and Brewster comes across as incredibly lazy in his response. Not a surprise given that this was the early 90s and the fukuyamaist end of history. So there was zero urgency to his critique
No.485075
>>485073Yes but more in-depth and related to the real world. Seems like it would be number one priority.
No.485076
>>485075for sure. but a huge problem is getting a hold of the actual data. and also people willing to give this stuff a try
No.485077
>>484707Idk maybe. Can any anon in here try something like that and upload it to youtube?
No.485078
>>484707yes but it would have to use a custom server plugin
No.485079
>>485073starcraft economy is very simple compared to real life economies. There are only 3 inputs and no intermediate goods.
No.485080
>>485079of course. there's oodles of other games. Workers & Resources comes to mind
Starcraft is interesting because it is adversarial. you have to do continuous planning. planning investments (building construction) requires integer variables. this makes optimal Starcraft planning NP
No.485081
>>484948<Assume, as do C&C, an economy which generates 10⁶ distinguishable goods and services. A Leontief input/output matrix for such an economy would then need solutions for 10⁶ x 10⁶ x 10⁶ = 10¹⁸ equations to eliminate the variables assuming everything to be an input for everything else.>letting one's mathlet-ness be on full display like thisembarassing tbh. for those who don't notice, it's 10⁶ equations, not 10¹⁸, the system is actually sparse, and we don't need to form an explicit inverse to find a solution. plus it is very parallelizeable
No.485084
>>485082is this just boomerism or is paul secretly a meme slinging teen at heart
No.485085
>>485084my pet theory is that paul secretly posts in here
No.485086
Even if we do in fact have the physical technology to implement planning as described here, we don't have the social technology, people don't trust each other enough for direct democracy.
No.485087
>>485086i call bullshit on this
people trust each other just fine, so much so that the bourgoisie and their lackies actively expend effort sowing distrust amongst people
take that away for even a moment and you see solidarity
No.485089
>>485087>people trust each other just fineThe people immediately around them sure, but in a huge polarized country there's always some outgroup that's to be feared and resented
No.485090
>>485088is that the fucking walmart logo?
No.485091
>>485090Yes, my man is People's Republic of Walmart pilled
No.485092
>>485089who do you think picks and chooses each outgroup?
and when those who decide lose their grip on power, who do you think ends up more often than not becoming the outgroup?
No.485093
Warning:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cockshott#Political_views>Cockshott advocates for a system of a moneyless economy based on computerized central planning and direct democracy called neosocialism*.[2**]* Leads to this article on the fascist ideology of "neosocialism" from the 1930s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neosocialism** Leads to the following source with no such usage of "neosocialism":
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/index.html No.485094
>>485093I recommend to just replace "neosocialism" with "cybernetic communism", with or without hyperlink, sourcing his recent usage of 'cybernetic communism' in the last decade(s) rather than "cybernetic socialism" (in the 90s).
No.485095
>>485093there's a copyright notice on the talk page. do we have a photo of paul with known copyright status?
No.485096
>>485093the only time I remember them naming their ideology was something like "post-Soviet socialism"
No.485097
>>485093The edit was made by a Wikipedia user Comradeka, who uses imageboard lingo and they/them pronouns on the personal user page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Cockshott&diff=prev&oldid=1046646704Definitely a troll edit. That user also edits other articles with left-wing relevance, but does not appear particularly trollish in that. Probably has an axe to grind because of Cockshott's gender views.
No.485098
>>485093It goes deeper there is a subsection on "neosocialism" for the wiki page on TANS
No.485099
>>485098The change was recently done by SnowFire, who appears neither a wingnut nor troll. In the revision history, the user comments: "move passage from Neosocialism here". The user who added Cockshott to the Neosocialism article was WiCoraLee. That was the only contribution WiCoraLee ever made.
No.485100
>>485093its sad, but i have not the willpower to fight the corrupt mountain of administrative shit that is wikipedia
No.485101
>>485099>That was the only contribution WiCoraLee ever madeGlowie confirmed
No.485102
Thanks whoever made the edit.
No.485107
>>485106yeah I listened to it in the car
I think paul should have made clear that planning starts with the base, with the most basic goods. services is something you can bring in later. it's also almost impossible to answer a lot of those questions without actually having cybersocialism in place. he does address some presuppositions however, like a lot of what is now done by the petty bourgeoisie should become effectively salaried work
No.485108
>>485106on the question of people lying to the system, this is something I expect would quickly be made illegal. there are also statistical methods to detect it, possibly even if there's only a single firm in a field, like the rocket example. but there I expect there's heavy involvement from the democratic body. in any heavy capital investment you want oversight
No.485109
seems this thread has reached the bump limit. should I start a new one? if so I'll steal the OP from this one, with minor changes
No.485110
>>485107Distinguishing between "services" and "le base tangible commodities" is completely irrational and arbitrary.
Unique IPs: 21