No.484498[Last 50 Posts]
Previous thread ( >>210868 ) hit bump limit.
We scientific (STEM) socialism here.
READINGhttp://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/For a complete reading list, see:
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2020/05/01/two-reading-lists/Cockshott's Patreonhttps://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/Cockshott's youtube channelhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQCockshott's Blogshttps://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/http://paulcockshott.co.uk/Cockshott's videos torrent archiveHere's the torrent with all of Paul Cockshott's YouTube channel videos up to 27/10/2020 (i.e. Eliminating inequality):
Magnet link:
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:d5e5cc7a91228fef2ea213f816b27cfea8185961&dn=Paul%5FCockshott%5F%28October%5F27th%5F2020%29&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.opentrackr.org%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.to%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2F9.rarbg.me%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.internetwarriors.net%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.leechers-paradise.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.cyberia.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fexodus.desync.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fexplodie.org%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fp4p.arenabg.ch%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker1.itzmx.com%3A8080%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker3.itzmx.com%3A6961%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.zerobytes.xyz%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.tiny-vps.com%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ds.is%3A6969%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.si%3A1337%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.torrent.eu.org%3A451%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fretracker.lanta-net.ru%3A2710%2Fannounce&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fopen.acgnxtracker.com%3A80%2Fannounce&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.moeking.me%3A6969%2Fannounce
Torrent file:
https://anonymousfiles.io/RileL0Sn/This thread is for the discussion of cybersocialism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and of course the great immortal scientist himself, WILLIAM PAUL COCKSHOTT.
Archives of previous thread 1)
https://archive.is/uNCEY2)
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html3)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1092975361You can make webm related real by contacting Ck on his Facebook or YT channel. No.484500
Can anybody here prove new American left wrong on his analysis of central planning and hakim?
No.484501
<a onclick="highlightReply('392963', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392963">>>392963</a><br/>please link his criticism so we may address it
No.484502
<span class="quote">>viewing webm</span><br/><span class="quote">>>>> "COMPUTER SHIT"</span><br/>nig, are you for real?<br/><br/>are you even living in the 21st century<br/><br/>wtf
No.484504
Okay, comrades. Let's meme this into reality. Does anyone have Cockshott's contact on Patreon/Youtube/Facebook?<br/><br/>If so, please, for the love of god, make this """debate""" happen.<br/><br/>thx
No.484505
<a onclick="highlightReply('392969', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392969">>>392969</a><br/><span class="quote">>His cockshott video </span><br/>watching rn
No.484507
<a onclick="highlightReply('392969', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392969">>>392969</a><br/><span class="heading">ALREADY</span> 00:30 in, I know that this midget NEVER read a single page of Cockshott!<br/><span class="quote"><br/>>muh centralized blanning</span><br/><strong>UYGHA,</strong> STFU, Cockshott makes it *explicit* that his proposed system can work in a non-centralized fashion.<br/><br/><span class="heading">WHAT</span><br/><span class="heading">DE</span><br/><span class="heading">FUG</span><br/><br/>Why are anglo youtubers doing this, for real? Nig, just read like 20 pages from the author you are supposedly criticizing.<br/><br/>HOLY<br/>FUCKING<br/>SHET
No.484508
<a onclick="highlightReply('392969', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392969">>>392969</a><br/>You can contact him via email
No.484509
<span class="quote">>Ludwig Von Mee Sees</span><br/>is this for real?
No.484511
gorilla man is an anglo cuck
No.484513
<a onclick="highlightReply('392990', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392990">>>392990</a><br/>glows in the dark
No.484514
<a onclick="highlightReply('392969', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392969">>>392969</a><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('392963', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392963">>>392963</a><br/>Who the fuck is this guy?
No.484516
<a onclick="highlightReply('392996', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392996">>>392996</a><br/>A vaushite “leftist”
No.484517
<a onclick="highlightReply('393002', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393002">>>393002</a><br/>lmao, will be deleted in 4… 3…. 2…
No.484518
<a onclick="highlightReply('392963', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392963">>>392963</a><br/>Stop posting literal feds
No.484519
<span class="quote">>new thread</span><br/><span class="quote">>immediately derailed by a fed breadtuber and infrared</span>
No.484521
<a onclick="highlightReply('392963', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392963">>>392963</a><br/>Wallmart.<br/>Amazon.<br/>Microsoft.
No.484523
<a onclick="highlightReply('392963', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392963">>>392963</a><br/>Stop shilling SDL's sock puppet account.
No.484525
dialectics
No.484527
<a onclick="highlightReply('393039', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393039">>>393039</a><br/>dayalactax
No.484528
<a onclick="highlightReply('393037', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393037">>>393037</a><br/>I already emailed him with my uni account<br/>just buy him a beer if you meet him don't be wierd
No.484529
<a onclick="highlightReply('393046', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393046">>>393046</a><br/><span class="quote">>just buy him a beer if you meet him don't be wierd</span><br/>I would buy him anything if I actually met him
No.484530
<a onclick="highlightReply('393046', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393046">>>393046</a><br/><span class="quote">>meet anglo computer man </span><br/><span class="quote">>spaghetti jumps out of my pocket </span><br/>how the fuck do you even buy someone else a beer, can't I just show him my meme collection or something like that to break the ice?
No.484531
<a onclick="highlightReply('393046', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393046">>>393046</a><br/><span class="quote">>I already emailed him with my uni account</span><br/>proof? <span class="spoiler">you can censor parts you don't wanna let be public</span>
No.484532
<a onclick="highlightReply('393051', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393051">>>393051</a><br/>more like<br/><span class="quote">>meet Scot computer nerd</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><aged 97</span><br/><span class="quote">>tell him how I enjoyed his books</span><br/><span class="quote">>especially his chapter about "Communes" in TaNS</span><br/><span class="quote">>before I could say anything he goes on a long tirade about how</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><WEE NEED TO HAVE PONIES IN ALL COMMUNAL UNITS</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><WE NEED TO BAN GAY-ITUDE</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><SOCIALISM IS WHEN FAX MACHINES</span><br/><span class="quote">>listen respectfully, then walk out</span><br/>why is Cockshott like this?
No.484533
Sorry to break it to you, but two things basically remove a lot of credibility from the computer guy narrative:<br/>1. in a chat with FinBol a couple of years ago, someone asked him the most dreaded but fundamental question: how do you sustain a system where whatever job you have, you'll get paid exactly the same? He came up with the most underwhelming answer: well, you take pride in doing your job well. Basically a non-answer and something completely disappointing coming from someone that tries to mathematise every bloody thing to then come up with a "because reasons" answer. Also, while he advocate for the complete and total elimination of each and every "market" mechanism whatsoever, he then said that when there are not enough people willing to do some kind of job, you just… paid them more! So, the demand-side for a job goes down, the supply-side just goes up. Totally not a market logic! <br/>2. He made some video a few years ago when he supposedly "debunked" the reasons why people should push for some kind of UBI. I'm not taking a side here, but I'm just bringing to your attention an actual example, not some "because reasons" scholarly assumption. He said in the end that a UBI would be, among other things, a "help to the worst employers" or an "incentive" to them. Well, here in Wopistan, porkies and especially smaller porkies are crying so much because a welfare benefit introduced in the last couple of years - i.e. "giving money to people to don't do nothing" - is basically undercutting the possibility by restaurants and such shit to hire for the shitty wages they were used to pay to waiters. A real life demonstration that something that is not even close to an actual full UBI can nonetheless work very well against "the worst kinds of employers" and not be an "incentive" for them. Beside this, in that video he only considers raising the income tax for low and medium brackets as a mean to finance an UBI, while things like imposing wealth taxes, land taxes and property taxes are apparently not even contemplated.
No.484534
<a onclick="highlightReply('393065', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393065">>>393065</a><br/>Pretty weird copypasta
No.484536
<a onclick="highlightReply('393069', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393069">>>393069</a><br/><span class="quote">>Sent from my Windows 10 device</span><br/>my <span class="heading">GAHWD</span>
No.484537
<a onclick="highlightReply('393072', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393072">>>393072</a><br/><span class="quote">>write long, multi-paragraph email with clearly delineated questions</span><br/><span class="quote">>get single-line response in return</span><br/>every convo with paul
No.484539
<a onclick="highlightReply('393075', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393075">>>393075</a><br/>based, i guess
No.484540
<a onclick="highlightReply('393075', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393075">>>393075</a><br/>I wrote like twice multi paragraph shit to him and he replied in kind.
No.484541
<a onclick="highlightReply('393084', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393084">>>393084</a><br/>based autism, lmao
No.484542
<a onclick="highlightReply('393084', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393084">>>393084</a><br/><span class="quote">> [like the person who shalln't be named].</span><br/>Are you talking about destiny Jesus fucking christ what is this cringy liberal he who shouldn’t be named bullshit just call him by his name faggot
No.484543
<a onclick="highlightReply('393095', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393095">>>393095</a><br/>our mods (PBUH) made it bannable to mention the person in question<br/><br/>keep up with what's going on on leftypol?
No.484544
<a onclick="highlightReply('393095', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393095">>>393095</a><br/><span class="quote">> bannable to mention the person in question</span><br/>Since when?
No.484545
<a onclick="highlightReply('393096', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393096">>>393096</a><br/>who?<br/><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('393069', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393069">>>393069</a><br/>you Swedish, right? Cuz I sent those words of yours thru google translate, so u must be Swedcuck.
No.484546
<a onclick="highlightReply('393098', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393098">>>393098</a><br/>Since radlib mod takeover, lol.<br/><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('393100', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393100">>>393100</a><br/>it's not Swedish<br/><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('393072', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393072">>>393072</a><br/>Cockshott is like 70 years old. He will use whatever shit is put into his hands, fo real.
No.484547
<a onclick="highlightReply('393098', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393098">>>393098</a><br/>long story
No.484548
<a onclick="highlightReply('393103', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393103">>>393103</a><br/><span class="quote">>it's not Swedish</span><br/><br/>definitely Swedish
No.484549
<a onclick="highlightReply('393065', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393065">>>393065</a><br/><span class="quote">>Totally not a market logic! </span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><markets are where supply and demand happens</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><supply and demand only exist under capitalism</span><br/>t. has never read a single page of Marx
No.484550
<a onclick="highlightReply('393115', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393115">>>393115</a><br/>Cockshott solves all of these non-problems
No.484551
cockshot is god, btw
No.484552
<a onclick="highlightReply('393103', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393103">>>393103</a><br/><span class="quote">>Since radlib mod takeover, lol</span><br/>You really don't keep up with the Element, do you? If anything, the mods consistently refuse do ban /pol/yps under the premise of "converting" them, yet will auto ban radlibs immediately, despite both being idpol.
No.484553
<a onclick="highlightReply('393116', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393116">>>393116</a><br/>He does solve many problems and makes people seethe and strawman so hard. Maybe because it flies in the face of (((market socialists))), Dengoids and succdems/demsocs on the right end, and in the face of leftcoms, ultraleft, council communists on the left end. Based marxist centrism.
No.484554
<a onclick="highlightReply('393121', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393121">>>393121</a><br/>Just a simple question, you pseud!<br/><br/>Where does Cockshott (or Michael Roberts) use the term "Dengoid?"<br/><br/>Oh, nowhere?<br/><br/>Maybe you are an absolute pseud.
No.484556
<br/><a onclick="highlightReply('393126', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393126">>>393126</a><br/>He BTFO both BayArea and another guy arguments under the market socialism video, that's for sure.
No.484557
<a onclick="highlightReply('393120', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393120">>>393120</a><br/>The actual makeup of our mod time as of now, you FAGGOT:<br/><span class="quote">>60% non-ML</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><while our community is AT LEAST 60% ML</span><br/><span class="quote"><br/>>literal idpol fags who praised CHAZ</span><br/><span class="quote">>literal idpol fags who think if you crit BLM you are a nazi</span><br/>…<br/><span class="quote"><br/>>fucking idpol lords</span><br/>(no women, btw, lmao)<br/><span class="quote">>vegans</span><br/><span class="quote">>lots of vegans</span><br/>(because it's woke!!)<br/><br/>maybe try familiarizing yourself with said Element before shitting on people who already did.<br/><br/><span class="spoiler">sage, cuz off topic.</span>
No.484558
<a onclick="highlightReply('393120', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393120">>>393120</a><br/>Radlibs possess enough rat cunning to be able to infiltrate and subvert shit, pollacks are too retarded and disorganized to pose a threat.
No.484559
<a onclick="highlightReply('393127', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393127">>>393127</a><br/>We're /plangang/ ITT. Market "socialists" please behave politely or face the wrath of "The Cock"
No.484560
<span class="quote">>Haz in this debate drops the name "Paul Cockshott" like 50 times</span><br/>not even joking
No.484562
<a onclick="highlightReply('393129', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393129">>>393129</a><br/><span class="quote">>60% non-ML</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><while our community is AT LEAST 60% ML</span><br/>Ok, but that's not a point on them being radlibs. The idea that the tendency that dominates the board has to be the tendency that dominates it's moderation is absurd, and this is coming from someone who sees themselves as practically ML and has been extremely critical of the mod team in the past. <br/><span class="quote">>literal idpol fags who praised CHAZ</span><br/><span class="quote">>literal idpol fags who think if you crit BLM you are a nazi</span><br/>I haven't witnessed this being said. <br/><span class="quote">>fucking idpol lords (no women, btw, lmao)</span><br/>Where? If anything, the mod practically instabans liberal idpol, while letting /pol/ idpol stay up<br/><span class="quote">>vegans</span><br/><span class="quote">>lots of vegans (because it's woke!!)</span><br/>Where? Also, having a dietary preference is not the same as being a radlib, for whatever stupid reason. Being a radlibs relates to ones actual politics and lack of actual class analysis.
No.484563
<a onclick="highlightReply('393120', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393120">>>393120</a><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('393202', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393202">>>393202</a><br/>this<br/>mods are fags<br/>caballo is the biggest faggot
No.484564
<a onclick="highlightReply('393202', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393202">>>393202</a><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><veganism is merely</span><br/><span class="quote">>a dietary preference</span>
No.484565
<a onclick="highlightReply('393065', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393065">>>393065</a><br/><span class="quote">>how do you sustain a system where whatever job you have, you'll get paid exactly the same?</span><br/>He doesn't advocate for that. See TANS, chapter two.<br/><span class="quote">>UBI</span><br/>Like with the first issue, it seems you don't remember his actual position. UBI subsidizes employers who pay below living wage. It's wrong to think about this as some given fixed amount of jobs. UBI shifts jobs towards this and generates idiotic prices and so on.<br/><br/>The juxtaposition of these two positions – claiming to be worried there won't be enough differentiation in income while wanting to reduce the income difference between working and not working – looks very odd. The effect is that the post does not look like a genuine inquiry to me.
No.484567
I tried asking this in the last thread but it hit the bump limit so I try asking again. Does anyone know anything about the "China DOS Union"? is it made by an actual union? or something different?
No.484568
<a onclick="highlightReply('393951', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393951">>>393951</a><br/><span class="quote">>it also seems like they deleted the entire channel, and their twitter</span><br/>based
No.484570
<a onclick="highlightReply('392979', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#392979">>>392979</a><br/><span class="quote">>Cockshott makes it *explicit* that his proposed system can work in a non-centralized fashion.</span><br/>How? There cannot be a decentralized legal system, so how can there be a decentralized plan? This doesn't make any sense.
No.484571
<a onclick="highlightReply('394040', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394040">>>394040</a><br/>I don’t the fact that his website is registered to a Florida pedophile with a license to practice law is proof he’s CIA. He definitely affiliates himself with scum and he’s an idiot but that doesn’t make him CIA<br/>[Spoiler]I do believe SDL and Vaush are CIA though[/Spoiler]
No.484572
<a onclick="highlightReply('394072', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394072">>>394072</a><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><Connections to Florida and Ukraine uncovered</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><Emerges within the Vaush/Destiny sphere (he has had "debates" with both under the Pogan moniker that are amicable; i.e. to pull from that same audience from the start)</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><Trotskyite foreign policy</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><Leftist, well-produced aesthetics from the get-go</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><Economically right-wing, pro-market, anti-planning</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><Cites Von Mises, Hayek </span><br/><span class="quote">>Not CIA</span>
No.484573
<a onclick="highlightReply('394085', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394085">>>394085</a><br/>Idk man a lot of people are just rich and independently try to push a right wing agenda without help from the cia. If you get some evidence like what we have on vaush (spooks whispering in his ear during that debate with hinkle telling him what to say on syria) or on SDL (his father worked in the military industrial complex) then I’ll believe you.
No.484574
<a onclick="highlightReply('393129', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393129">>>393129</a><br/>This. Fuck jannies
No.484575
<a onclick="highlightReply('393951', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393951">>>393951</a><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('394040', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394040">>>394040</a><br/>Lmfao @ the faggot cucking out
No.484576
<a onclick="highlightReply('394067', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394067">>>394067</a><br/><span class="quote">>There cannot be a decentralized legal system</span><br/>local ordinances don't real?<br/><span class="quote">>how can there be a decentralized plan?</span><br/>the plan emerges from a set of inequalities (see Kantorovich). these inequalities encode things like maximum allowed greenhouse gas emissions, the length of the working week, technical coefficients for each good that can be produced etc.. this is not something that can be built entirely from above, but would be the collective product of the entire working class. every worker and every workplace "owns" a set of rows in this giant equation<br/><br/>assuming a linear program is enough, it will look like this:<br/>Ax <= b<br/>where A is a sparse matrix containing what I mentioned earlier, b is the right-hand side of each constraint and x is the vector of labour intensities (the "plan" so to say)<br/><br/>in reality a linear program is probably not enough. we need to start looking at non-convex programs.
No.484579
<a onclick="highlightReply('393129', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393129">>>393129</a><br/>None of those points are true with respect to the mod team. The matrix chat is alnost for anybody to join however.
No.484580
<a onclick="highlightReply('394797', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394797">>>394797</a><br/>Yo cockshott is indeed based as fuck I don't care what anybody says.
No.484581
Paul Cockshott:<br/><span class="quote">>"Oi m8 it's dialectical innit bruv"</span><br/>What did he mean by this?
No.484582
Cockshott's been active on twitter lately. Unfortunately he keeps posting his usual anti-trans content. He's gonna get cancelled in no time if he keeps this up lmao
No.484583
<a onclick="highlightReply('394870', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394870">>>394870</a><br/>what is his @
No.484584
<a onclick="highlightReply('394870', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394870">>>394870</a><br/>If Cockshott gets cancelled /leftypol/ goes to war
No.484585
<a onclick="highlightReply('394870', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394870">>>394870</a><br/><span class="quote">>check twitter</span><br/><span class="quote">>all the angry responses are she/hers with anime avys</span><br/>Seems like he struck a nerve.
No.484586
<a onclick="highlightReply('394870', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394870">>>394870</a><br/>based
No.484587
<a onclick="highlightReply('394870', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394870">>>394870</a><br/>oh god, this is going to cause so much of a shitstorm. please paul, leave this to the radfems
No.484588
<a onclick="highlightReply('394870', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394870">>>394870</a><br/>I kneel
No.484589
How do we get Cockshott on the Jimmy Dore Show?
No.484590
<a onclick="highlightReply('394870', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394870">>>394870</a><br/>Is it actually him? LOL
No.484591
<a onclick="highlightReply('396440', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#396440">>>396440</a><br/>Get Cockshott familiar with Mike Gravel and then lean on Jimmy that Cockshott has something similar to Gravel's citizen legislation proposal.
No.484592
<a onclick="highlightReply('394040', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394040">>>394040</a><br/>Who is this guy? Can't find any videos on yt.
No.484593
<a onclick="highlightReply('393951', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393951">>>393951</a><br/>we need to archive<br/>also anyone have the jimmy dore nazbol video
No.484594
<a onclick="highlightReply('396554', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#396554">>>396554</a><br/>He deleted them all and quit the project yesterday after getting cyber-dunked by real socialists and communists from all sides at once the last couple of days.
No.484597
<a onclick="highlightReply('397156', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397156">>>397156</a><br/>Could you be more sensationalist?
No.484599
<a onclick="highlightReply('397298', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397298">>>397298</a><br/>Yeah just researched this a bit quickly and it seems there are scrips too that you can use to work around this problem. Someone should DM the invidious and FreeTube devs and tell them about this, maybe it could be integrated to allow you to choose "I'm 18+" in a setting natively
No.484600
<a onclick="highlightReply('397294', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397294">>>397294</a><br/><span class="quote">>tfw had a Google account before they cared what age you were </span><br/><span class="quote">>tfw I'm 133 and still watching Minecraft let's plays</span>
No.484602
<a onclick="highlightReply('397389', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397389">>>397389</a><br/>No, just Marxism-Leninism. (Of the cybernetic kind, in this case).<br/><span class="spoiler">Nazbol gang meme was a mistake on large part</span>
No.484603
<a onclick="highlightReply('397156', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397156">>>397156</a><br/><span class="quote">>I do hope he shuts the fuck up about this as he is clearly out of depth and it can only be detrimental to the wider recognition of his work. Plus he's getting trolled hard by zoomers as you see in picrel</span><br/>Lmao, who cares about fucking zoomers, they are a fucking joke. They should fuck off to fortnite, twitch or whatever hole they crawled out of with their retarded pronounce word police. Leave theory to Big Boys and go play in your twitter autist corner radlibs.
No.484604
<a onclick="highlightReply('397792', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397792">>>397792</a><br/><span class="quote">>w-we're just fanboying over a retard who can't read hegel (or even marx) b-because economics and computer!</span><br/><span class="quote">>no you are the idpol radlib REEEEEE</span><br/>hang yourself on the nearest tree or jump off the highest building available, retarded /pol/ack "convert"
No.484606
<a onclick="highlightReply('397389', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397389">>>397389</a><br/>Based
No.484607
<a onclick="highlightReply('397805', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397805">>>397805</a><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('397792', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397792">>>397792</a><br/>Both retarded. uyghas old, he should focus on pushing planning technology as far as he can take it, idpol is a social battle for the next generation, but he's right here and many anglos need to hear that queer shit is no longer in anyway even reform, let alone revolutionary, it's pure status quo. And the fact we have leftypolers calling this shit 'pol' shows that it needs to be discussed. We only have so much time on this Earth though
No.484609
<a onclick="highlightReply('397805', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397805">>>397805</a><br/>Brainlet detected
No.484610
<a onclick="highlightReply('397819', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397819">>>397819</a><br/><span class="quote">>Both retarded.</span><br/>you retarded zizekhead<br/><span class="quote"><br/>>he should focus on</span><br/>he should focus on what he wants to focus<br/>what some retarded zizekhead thinks people "should" do is irrelevant because retarded zizekhead is irrelevant<br/><span class="quote"><br/>>And the fact we have leftypolers calling this shit 'pol' shows that it needs to be discussed.</span><br/>Then go make your thread and discuss how you want to be a girl there. Just don't try to enforce your retarded vision on us, ok? Marxism is about economics first, everything else is tangential, and it's surely not about you wanting to cut your dick off zizekhead.
No.484611
<a onclick="highlightReply('397823', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397823">>>397823</a><br/>How can I be irrelevant when I live in your head rent free?
No.484612
<a onclick="highlightReply('397294', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397294">>>397294</a><br/>Why is it age restricted? It's a good video. Cockshott is a closet accelerationist.
No.484613
<a onclick="highlightReply('397830', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397830">>>397830</a><br/>I mean 'war' and 'revolution' are some big no-no words. It is based <span class="spoiler">though</span>
No.484614
<a onclick="highlightReply('397827', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397827">>>397827</a><br/>the lack of self-awareness is staggering
No.484615
<a onclick="highlightReply('397838', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397838">>>397838</a><br/>I know right, this guy is really retarded
No.484617
<a onclick="highlightReply('397846', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397846">>>397846</a><br/>Who do you think got trump elected, huh? The Russians? Hahahahahahaha
No.484618
<a onclick="highlightReply('397830', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397830">>>397830</a><br/>I'm surprised they didn't age restrict the ones where proves the LTV right and exposes neoclassic economics as hokum
No.484619
<a onclick="highlightReply('396493', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#396493">>>396493</a><br/>Mr Gravel died
No.484620
Has any of you sent Paul Krugman any of Cockshott's videos?
No.484621
Have any of these cybernetic plans been tested in the real world, even if on a small scale?
No.484622
<a onclick="highlightReply('403095', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403095">>>403095</a><br/>Walmart
No.484623
<a onclick="highlightReply('403095', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403095">>>403095</a><br/>the USSR before its end
No.484624
<a onclick="highlightReply('403095', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403095">>>403095</a><br/>there was project cybersyn in chile in the early 70s, dont know how well it worked tho
No.484625
<a onclick="highlightReply('397294', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397294">>>397294</a><br/><span class="quote">>communists must serve on the army</span><br/>umm… so what are they gonna do when they're instructed to go and suppress a worker's strike or similar? this doesn't make any sense
No.484626
<a onclick="highlightReply('403486', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403486">>>403486</a><br/>It was never implemented because coup
No.484627
<a onclick="highlightReply('403571', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403571">>>403571</a><br/>It was partly implemented to circumvent the roadsters strike, but yeah, it was never fully implemented because coup.<br/><a onclick="highlightReply('403069', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403069">>>403069</a><br/><span class="heading">F</span>
No.484629
<a onclick="highlightReply('403558', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403558">>>403558</a><br/><span class="quote">>t. admitter of never having studied the October revolution a day in his life</span><br/>Good look.
No.484630
<a onclick="highlightReply('403720', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403720">>>403720</a><br/>You know there was a huge amount of time before the October Revolution where the army did suppress the workers right?
No.484631
<a onclick="highlightReply('403575', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#403575">>>403575</a><br/><span class="quote">>it was never fully implemented because coup</span><br/><span class="spoiler">F</span>
No.484632
Currently reading TANS to get more in depth into cybersoc stuff, and i have a question.<br/>Cockshott says that the calculations for the system would be run by planning softwares on computers, and that a distributed decentralized feedback system for data would be in place.<br/>In such a vision, my question is: Given taht the calculation are to be done in labour hours, how would the SNLT in labour hours for each object be derived?
No.484633
<a onclick="highlightReply('413812', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#413812">>>413812</a><br/><span class="quote">>Given taht the calculation are to be done in labour hours, how would the SNLT in labour hours for each object be derived?</span><br/>I am 99.9% sure this gets answered in the book if you keep reading.<br/>Basically you do what Marx already alluded to and count all the compound labor and make an aggregate.<br/><br/>If you make a wooden chair, the labor isn't just your assembly. It's also<br/>1. Getting the wood<br/>2. Getting the hammer<br/>3. Getting the nails<br/><br/>You can break this up further:<br/>1. Transporting all these materials<br/>2. Someone tending after the trees<br/>3. Someone mining resources for the purpose of building the hammer and the nails<br/><br/>You can break this up further:<br/>1. Materials needed to create mining tools<br/>2. Materials needed to create transportation means<br/><br/>And so on. You can do this over and over again, although you will get accurate results after a few iterations. The calculation problem doesn't exist and was formulated in a time where computers where actual human beings counting things and not data processing machines, certainly not the supercomputers of today (although Cockshott demonstrates that even moderately powerful 90s computers would be up to the task).
No.484634
<a onclick="highlightReply('413831', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#413831">>>413831</a><br/>Doesn't this require firms not to lie on the necessary labour time for things though?<br/>In a sense isn't there an element of trust in all this?
No.484636
<a onclick="highlightReply('415145', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#415145">>>415145</a><br/>So how could that small but crucial trust issues be overcome?
No.484637
I want to start learning about Cuckshoot and cyber socialism but I'm a brainlet, how can I start? There's some easy to understand video?
No.484638
<a onclick="highlightReply('415745', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#415745">>>415745</a><br/>Rigorous investigation and dismemberment the second fuckery of the sort is found
No.484639
<a onclick="highlightReply('415745', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#415745">>>415745</a><br/>this problem is the essence of the transition from socialism to communism I think. communism can only arise when people don't try to cheat the system. getting to that point is likely to take several generations, hundreds of years. until then we'll need incentives of various forms, and in extreme cases punishment<br/><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('415765', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#415765">>>415765</a><br/>did you read TANS? you can skim the math-y parts
No.484640
<a onclick="highlightReply('397792', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397792">>>397792</a><br/><span class="quote">>leave theory to Big Boys</span><br/><span class="orangeQuote"><post on twitter</span><br/>pick one
No.484641
<a onclick="highlightReply('415745', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#415745">>>415745</a><br/>Make the border between the "firm" (production location) and the outside world more permeable, with a constant coming and going of "tourists" (I mean people who may want to work there one day and other interested third parties) and "exchange students" (I mean people doing the same work in another place).
No.484642
<a onclick="highlightReply('416524', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#416524">>>416524</a><br/>this is an interesting idea. meshes well with the notion of wanting a "flow" of people in the political system, via sortition, which probably helps avoid corruption
No.484643
<a onclick="highlightReply('415882', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#415882">>>415882</a><br/>How many twitter posts would it take to post all three volumes of capital
No.484645
It would be dope to have sigma edit of Dickblast. Especially of that clip where he says (paraphrasing): if you believe in Hayeks understanding of informtion theory you should visit Chernobyl and die.
No.484646
<span class="quote">>Talk in some weird Discord group I joined but never wrote in</span><br/><span class="quote">>Troons seethe about Cockshott</span><br/><span class="quote">>They say labor accounting goes against Marx</span><br/><span class="quote">>They claim Marx said that only money can represent value</span><br/><span class="quote">>I argue that money price is just a (sometimes distorted) representation of exchange value which is a representation socially necessary labor time</span><br/><span class="quote">>Ultimately exchange value can be represented in SNLT</span><br/><span class="quote">>They claim only money can represent exchange value, and that direct labor accounting goes against Marx</span><br/><span class="quote">>Im shocked at the retardation</span><br/><span class="quote">>They read some summary of Kapital</span><br/><span class="quote">>I said I just read that chapter in the original German yesterday</span><br/><span class="quote">>They say no, only money can represent value</span><br/><span class="quote">>I say I can get my cock out and point to the pages talking about equivalent form</span><br/><span class="quote">>I call anyone who believes only money can represent value retarded</span><br/><span class="quote">>Get banned instantly</span><br/><br/>What a bunch of fucking morons
No.484647
<a onclick="highlightReply('429109', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429109">>>429109</a><br/>Can someone explain to me how they would even come to that conclusion? Like what went wrong in their mind? How the fuck can you claim that Marx insisted that value can only be represented in money? Is this some weird tendency of Marxism I haven't encountered yet?
No.484648
<a onclick="highlightReply('429109', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429109">>>429109</a><br/><span class="quote">>Doesn't play well with others</span><br/><span class="quote">>Reddit spacing</span><br/>not getting a gold star tonight anon sorry. time for your nap
No.484649
<a onclick="highlightReply('429117', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429117">>>429117</a><br/><span class="quote">>Muh reddit spacing after 10 lines</span><br/><span class="quote">>Getting along well with leftcom retards</span><br/>Shut the fuck up
No.484650
<a onclick="highlightReply('429115', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429115">>>429115</a> me<br/>I assume they have some sort of oversimplified Wertformkritik but I don't even get how they read that from Marx.
No.484651
<a onclick="highlightReply('429119', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429119">>>429119</a><br/>Please refrain from advising others on conduct if you suffer from autism.
No.484652
<a onclick="highlightReply('429124', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429124">>>429124</a><br/><span class="quote">>Treating a zoomer discord like a debate club</span><br/>Shut the fuck up
No.484653
Le dialectical terf IT helpdesk man
No.484654
<a onclick="highlightReply('429121', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429121">>>429121</a><br/><span class="quote">>Wertformkritik </span><br/>Can't be, or it would be extremely ironic because the wertkritik folks are generally well read and obsessed about analyses being truncated. Sounds more like home-brew shitty interpretation to me
No.484655
Plastic Pills created a documentary on Cybernetics and project Cybersyn, it's patreon exclusive for now, but he will eventually release it on his channel. <br/>Here is the trailer: <a href="
https://youtu.be/10aFfl0hrrk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
https://youtu.be/10aFfl0hrrk</a> No.484656
<a onclick="highlightReply('429136', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429136">>>429136</a><br/>I am just finding it a bit hard to find out what the differences are. A lot of the Cockshott criticisms comes from people who assume<br/><br/>1. Exchange value is not transhistorical<br/>2. Labor time and value do not correlate<br/><br/>Am I correct? This seems to be the main disagreements that anti-Dickblastians have
No.484657
<a onclick="highlightReply('413831', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#413831">>>413831</a><br/><span class="quote">>And so on. You can do this over and over again, although you will get accurate results after a few iterations. The calculation problem doesn't exist and was formulated in a time where computers where actual human beings counting things and not data processing machines, certainly not the supercomputers of today (although Cockshott demonstrates that even moderately powerful 90s computers would be up to the task).</span><br/>In the book by Leontief here <a onclick="highlightReply('393027', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#393027">>>393027</a> the first chapter indicates that computations to ascertain the input vectors of the American economy were already being computed on the Harvard Mark II. That is a half century before the 90s. The very first figure in the book, in fact, can be interpreted as a reflection of the aggregate socially necessary labour time of various sectors. So the matter of feasibility of this stuff is quite independent of Cockshott's opinions about computers, the work was being carried out long before he was born.
No.484658
<a onclick="highlightReply('429130', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429130">>>429130</a><br/>You do have autism, don't you anon?
No.484659
<a onclick="highlightReply('429146', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429146">>>429146</a><br/>Thank you, this only proves my point further<br/><a onclick="highlightReply('429148', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429148">>>429148</a><br/>Don't project
No.484660
<a onclick="highlightReply('429150', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429150">>>429150</a><br/>Please try to have a slightly more mature discussion.
No.484661
<a onclick="highlightReply('429154', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429154">>>429154</a><br/>I can have it, but not with you, and not with people who claim to be communists but flatout deny the LTV
No.484663
<a onclick="highlightReply('429158', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429158">>>429158</a> (you)<br/>i saw this
No.484664
<a onclick="highlightReply('429158', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429158">>>429158</a><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('429159', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429159">>>429159</a><br/>I am the same poster as the Cuba flag posts. So what
No.484665
<a onclick="highlightReply('429161', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429161">>>429161</a><br/>You are thanking me in the same breath as you denounce me so that is pretty funny
No.484666
<a onclick="highlightReply('429162', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429162">>>429162</a><br/>I support you when you are on my side and denounce you when you call me an autist. Seems logical
No.484667
<a onclick="highlightReply('429165', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429165">>>429165</a><br/>The remark was not about whether it was logical but whether it was funny. You are very good at acting logically. Very good.
No.484669
<a onclick="highlightReply('394090', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#394090">>>394090</a><br/><span class="quote">>spooks whispering in his ear</span><br/><br/>what
No.484670
<a onclick="highlightReply('429109', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429109">>>429109</a><br/>libs gonna lib<br/><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('429139', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429139">>>429139</a><br/>neato. let us know when it drops, or pirate it and upload it here<br/><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('429627', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429627">>>429627</a><br/>I knew the ancient Egyptians did stuff like that. didn't know the Incas did too<br/><span class="quote">>someone suggests paul should debate agent Kochinski</span><br/>not sure what good would come of this
No.484671
<a onclick="highlightReply('419785', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#419785">>>419785</a><br/>lmao, source?
No.484672
<a onclick="highlightReply('415145', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#415145">>>415145</a><br/>audio quality is 10/10 <span class="heading">FINALLY</span><br/><span class="quote"><br/>>inb4 Cockboom dies in a week</span>
No.484674
<a onclick="highlightReply('433832', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#433832">>>433832</a><br/><span class="quote">>paul should debate agent Kochinski</span><br/>Kochinski would just screaming memes like a monkey the entire time, not letting dickblast speak.
No.484675
<a onclick="highlightReply('397156', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#397156">>>397156</a><br/>lmaooo. his twitter is so cute. someone pls help that man upload his picture
No.484676
Seeing how people respond to Cockshott on Twitter makes me sad. He's an elderly person that isn't stupid and rude, the least you can do is talk to him with respect.
No.484677
<a onclick="highlightReply('440345', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#440345">>>440345</a><br/>I wish we had some kind of hybrid marxist between Cockblast and Richard Wolff, he would BTFO the cuckpitalist normies so hard.
No.484678
Someone tell Cockshott to debunk Contrapoints' latest video. I'm sure he would love dunking on a transhumanist
No.484679
<a onclick="highlightReply('429136', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#429136">>>429136</a><br/><span class="quote">>wertkritik folks are generally well read </span><br/>They apparently haven't read the foreword of the first edition of the first volume of Capital where Marx talks of value as something humans have struggled to understand for <em>thousands of years</em>, meaning value precedes capitalism.<br/><br/><a onclick="highlightReply('440463', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#440463">>>440463</a><br/>That would be like "debunking" poetry. Please don't make him watch that crap.
No.484682
<span class="quote">>Haz: I'm going to give Crockshot the benefit of the doubt.</span><br/>This streaming nobody will give the benefit of the doubt to a revered published theorist. The fucking audacity of this manlet autist.
No.484684
<a onclick="highlightReply('442691', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#442691">>>442691</a><br/>Based Cockshott
No.484685
<a onclick="highlightReply('442691', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#442691">>>442691</a><br/>Yeah but he probably means the soviet military occupation let it slip decades ago.<br/>But he's kinda wrong, military occupation in Afghanistan isn't very realistic because it's really harsh on industrial military gear. The soviets had problems with wearing down the turbines of helicopters and jets because they always got a dose of sand during landing an take off. Their air cooled diesel engines in tanks and trucks ran too hot during the day. They had many other material grind problems like that. Considering that it would take probably more than half a century, to fully secularize Afghanistan, there basically is nobody who can afford it.
No.484686
<a onclick="highlightReply('442707', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#442707">>>442707</a><br/>Nope. He means there should be a bourgeois liberal secular dictatorship. And he's not wrong
No.484687
<a onclick="highlightReply('442691', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#442691">>>442691</a><br/><span class="quote">>opposing Abrahamic reactionaries is neocon imperialism</span><br/>I wouldn't say this is the <em>only</em> solution however. groups like the Taliban don't spring from nowhere. what is the Taliban's base? why do people support them? military occupation is not a good tool for addressing such questions
No.484688
<a onclick="highlightReply('442739', event);" href="/leftypol/res/392953.html#442739">>>442739</a><br/><span class="quote">>Nope. He means there should be a bourgeois liberal secular dictatorship. And he's not wrong</span><br/>The Americans funded the taliban and the isis goons. He can't mean the US occupation because that didn't even intent to create a bourgeois secular anything in Afghanistan, they just wanted managed chaos, to extract resources, to block the BRI, and justify indefinite military expenditure. <br/>The last military occupation that did in earnest try to secularize Afganistan was the Soviet one.<br/>The US occupation continued funding the most reactionary elements during their stay, them getting kicked out isn't a big loss.<br/><br/>The next big player that tries it's hand with Afghanistan is now going to be China, and they probably will not do much to secularize Afghanistan either, because they won't interfere in internal politics. But they also will not fund reactionaries, and probably will squeeze out the foreign operations that do, which might reduce the back warded ness a tiny bit. So basically Afganistan will remain an utterly shit theocratic hell world. Until somebody can build a scifi military that can actually operate in this place, or we get a miracle and Afghanistan gets industrialized enough to produce enough surplus to sustain it's own societal progress.
No.484689
https://sitewithaview.ovh/the-problem-of-scale-in-anarchism-and-the-case-for-cybernetic-communism/After some stuff about Glushkov, Kantorovich, Cybersyn that you can skip even if you have only a very superficial familiarity with them, this gets really technical and weird. The start is around the first mention of
Economic Science Fictions – so ctrl-f for that. Disclaimer: I don't fully understand it myself. I am not a computer scientist, but I have a feeling that there is a leap of faith in the paragraph with the claim
Maximizing our integrated information favors cooperation over competition… My impression is that the author conflates distinct concepts: the independence of people in capitalism as a legal/ideological fiction and actual independence. I think really existing capitalism has no compatibility problems with actually existing strong dependence. In that paragraph the author states something I believe is practically identical to a poor argument for indirect elections: It's about high probability of subsystems being pivotal as something unquestionably good, because people then have a lot of power as long as we define having power as high probability of being pivotal… The problem with that definition is that it leaves out of the picture the probability of getting what you want, which is NOT the same as the probability of being pivotal.
No.484690
>>484689the author using terms like "Stalinism" makes me skeptical that they have an accurate view of history. this passage in particular supports this:
>In [Glushkov's] plan, this completely decentralized, vast computational network would have eventually entirely removed the state from the tasks of economic planning and distribution of services. Needless to say, the project was vehemently opposed by the Soviet government, after an initial phase of mild enthusiasm quickly evaporated.this doesn't square with the reality of OGAS being continually expanded until the end of the USSR
I have no idea why the author goes on about Kolmogorov complexity. the bit about multilayered networks is somewhat interesting, but much too abstract
this Bifo fellow the author cites seems hopelessly lost in idealism
No.484691
Can you give a good estimates how many different items are produced in an economy like that of Sweden? How about an estimate of how many different items a fashion company like Nike is offering within a year? I bet if you ask Paul Cockshott such a question, he will underestimate that by a factor of more than 100. (I admit that is a weird question outside normal experience and most people will fail to give a decent estimate within a factor of ten, and I don't think it makes an insurmountable issue for computer planning, but still.)
Here I found some estimates for Amazon (article is from June 8, 2021):
https://inventlikeanowner.com/blog/the-story-behind-asins-amazon-standard-identification-numbers/Talking about inventing Amazon's internal numbering system back in the nineties:
<I (Rebecca Allen) proposed that we replace the 10-digit ISBN as the key for our catalog with a minimum-impact-on-the-code “ASIN”.<base 36 number (the letters of the alphabet plus the 10 digits)Then after looking at the numbers and release dates of products, she does a little bit of math, and comes to this:
<So, between sometime in 1997 or 1998 (I forget exactly when I created ASINs, but I left in 1998, so it had to be before that, and it wasn’t one of the first things I did, so it was not in 1996) and 2016, Amazon used 100 Billion (with a B, for Bezos) ASINs. Between 2016 and now, they’ve gone through at least 6 times that.Deflating factors:
<They are using a new ASIN for each new expiration date on a given product.<Second, vendors have the option of using a distinct ASIN in each geographic region / market.<scam listings, counterfeit goods and the likeMulti-pack versions of a product also got a distinct ASIN, of course.
No.484692
>>484691I don't think anyone denies that we'll have to deal with billions or even trillions of distinct goods
>They are using a new ASIN for each new expiration date on a given product>Second, vendors have the option of using a distinct ASIN in each geographic region / marketthis kind of info doesn't belong in a product ID
in principle the number of good could be infinite. but in practice you still have to "instantiate" each type of good. think lazy evaluation
No.484693
>>484691This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.
No.484695
>>484526first book is underrated
No.484696
>>484596replace youtube.com with yewtu.be in the link name and you can watch it
also gluglu doesn't demand it from non-europeans afaik
No.484701
>>484699>>484700It's funny how many people conflate the genotype/genome with the genetic code, even a scientific minded individual like Cockshott.
Good video nonetheless and nice takedown by Cockshott.
No.484703
>>484697Too bad Allende fell for the "democratic" socialism meme. Castro tried to warn him even..
No.484704
>>484691Way too many are produced.
>Bro you totally need 6 different variations of ketchup. No.484707
could you plan a minecraft faction economy with cockshott's software?
No.484708
>>484686He's extremely wrong if he thinks that the US' failure to do exactly that isn't indicative of all such imperialist ventures.
>>484683How stupid.
>>484687Turns out that the bourgeois military dictatorship also supported Abrahamic reactionaries in their attempt at "reform"
No.484709
>>484707You don't need Cockshott's software. Games like Factorio, Minecraft, and other games with resource management mechanics, are often reducible to linear programming problems. Almost every major programming language has some library for LP solving.
Oskar Lange has a really good book on dynamic programming called "Optional Decision-making". Lots of neat asides against von Mises, including the fact that he stole the name "praxeology" from a legitimate field of mathematical inquiry and then established it in a completely insane, incoherent, manner. Lange is underrated, especially later Lange.
>>484705Read Marx's journalism for the New York Tribune on the Civil War in the US. See also his writings on the historical events that occurred in his time, like the 18th Brumaire.
No.484710
>>484706I legit don't get it,send help.
No.484711
>>484706Based dickbalst
>>484710The tawantinsuyo didn't use currency, but only a barter system and a highly centralized bureocracy who used the quipu as an accounting tool (and also as a form of books, but the way of reading them has been lost to history)
No.484712
I haven't watched much of him yet, but I noticed he receives a lot of videos criticizing his theories on ECP and shit by market enthusiasts, lolberts, etc. Do they have any merit in them?
No.484715
>>484714Oh shit you meant random lolberts criticising Cockshott? Sorry, I thought you meant the exact opposite, i.e. do Cockshott's videos have merit. Haven't seen any video replies to him, but i've read papers by austrian economists criticising him and they're all shit. I imagine youtube videos aren't much better
No.484716
>>484715yeah makes sense, i haven't yet the time to engage with those hour long videos so i asked in case someone already did
No.484717
>>484716I hope someone here has and can give you a proper answer then. If you look at the first few posts ITT you can see the controversy over some twitter retard who made a few videos criticising Cockshott. Long story short: the critiques were shit and he got made fun of to the point of deleting the videos and all his accounts.
No.484718
>>484707what
>>484709 says. I've experimented with lp_solve, it's quite easy to use, and some of cockshott's projects use it as well. what you want to do is write a generator that generates linear programs that can then be passed to lp_solve
one complication is that you quickly get into integer programming, which lp_solve isn't very good at since it's using the simplex algorithm instead of an interior point method. solving large mixed integer programs is an active field of research
>>484712no, they're mostly useless subjectivists and Klimanfags in some cases like SDL
No.484719
I want to learn the programming, I'm gonna finish some lisp books, algorithms, and then what should I use for introduction to Cockshott's planning? Towards a new socialism?
No.484725
>>484724The Kantorovich book seems very promising. While clear that such methods are subordinated to profit in the capitalist mode of production, he does not seem to have a very clear idea to what end such programming would be put in a socialist economy.
No.484728
>>484725>he does not seem to have a very clear idea to what end such programming would be put in a socialist economyKantorovich suggests that the "planning ray" (typically called c in the literature) should be in the direction of some basket of goods. I disagree with Kantorovich on this. It makes the most sense to optimize in terms of social labour, and introduce constraints based on measured demand.
Glushkov gives a clearer picture of how these things could be put to use in a socialist economy, via his Displan proposal. Unfortunately most of Glushkov's work is still only available in Russian. Perhaps we can get some slavic comrades to translate more of them?
No.484729
>>484728>Kantorovich suggests that the "planning ray" (typically called c in the literature) should be in the direction of some basket of goods.Yeah, I see that. However, if capitalism is focused on profit – that is, the production of surplus value – socialist planning, by definition, must be aimed at freeing the social producer from labor as Marx argued in the Grundrisse. Present wealth is based on the expenditure of human labor power, but in the society of the future wealth must be based on the power of the human mind – on the general intellect of society. This means our planning should focus on replacing living labor with dead labor – replacing labor with machines. Postone went as far as to argue that dead labor was the future.
No.484730
>>484729yeah that's why I say minimizing labour is the way to go
No.484731
>>484719Start with TANS not much background required
No.484732
>>484727thanks anon. i will watch
No.484734
Person A: Money can most definitely buy happiness for most people.
Person B: Meanwhile, some of the happiest countries surveyed live in relative poverty in Africa.
Happiness is very complicated. It seems true that in the USA, money is necessary, but not sufficient for happiness. However, there are places where people live in harmony in small communities and in a state we'd consider poverty. They work hard and they have far less luxuries than us, but they also get a lot of joy from how meaningful their lives are.
When an American goes to work, he makes things for strangers. When someone on the west coast of Africa goes fishing, he feeds his family and friends.
When an American grows up, he struggles to keep meaningful friendships. When a west African grows up, they are friends with all their village and they serve an important role in that village that makes they socialize often.
The American lives a less human life than the west African, in a sense. We've created an abomination of manmade experiences that are unnatural and go against our evolved psychology. We are meant to be happy in small tribes where everyone sees everyone fulfill important roles, not massive communities where we do abstract tasks like
Please debunk person B.
No.484735
>>484734You don't have to go back to living in primitive tribal society, to have meaningful lives. The fact that capitalism has caused people to become atomized doesn't mean that complex society have to be like that. Work becomes meaningless in capitalism because of exploitation. Capitalists remove surplus value from society, that is what makes it meaningless. The work in a small tribe appears more meaningful because the surplus is not lost to a ruling class. Doing work for strangers in a complex system with a high degree of division of labor doesn't have to appear meaningless, if you make the economic system transparent enough. the Money based market economy just has too many layers of obfuscation to have this level of transparency.
Live in an advanced mode of production does not necessarily have to feel like living in a fish-bole yearning for the lake and river.
No.484736
>>484734The West African enjoys a backwards mode of production and will be proletarianized sooner or later. They should enjoy it while it lasts.
No.484738
>>484735>The work in a small tribe appears more meaningful because the surplus is not lost to a ruling classTribes don't generate surplus
No.484739
>>484726>>484679>They apparently haven't read the foreword of the first edition of the first volume of Capital where Marx talks of value as something humans have struggled to understand for thousands of years, meaning value precedes capitalism.OMG! Don't tell me Engels actually knew what he was talking about. Chris Arthur must be rolling over in his … theoretical grave:
<"The value-form, whose fully developed shape is the money-form, is very elementary and simple. Nevertheless, the human mind has for more than 2,000 years sought in vain to get to the bottom of it all…" No.484740
>>484690>the author using terms like "Stalinism" makes me skeptical that they have an accurate view of history. this passage in particular supports this:QUESTION: How do you ever get to communism if you cannot manage production and the distribution of services without the state? Communism is a stateless society.
No.484741
>>484691>Can you give a good estimates how many different items are produced in an economy like that of Sweden?I'm confused. Do you need 100 different varieties of athletic shoes before you can free the working class from wage slavery? Or do you just need a decent pair of shoes for everyone on the planet?
No.484742
>>484740Communism is not a government-less society
No.484743
>>484738>Tribes don't generate surplusYes correct, if you don't generate surplus there can't be a ruling class taking it.
No.484744
>>484743Unhappiness doesn't come from exploitation, unhappiness doesn't come from somebody taking your surplus value. If anything, the situation of a wagie and of a tribe hunter are identical, both gather just enough to sustain them and their tribe/family/whatever, so not really good explanation there
No.484745
>>484744>Unhappiness doesn't come from exploitationYes it does
No.484746
>>484741>I'm confused. Do you need 100 different varieties of athletic shoes before you can free the working class from wage slavery? Or do you just need a decent pair of shoes for everyone on the planet?No you don't need it, but cybernetics can definitely accommodate all that variety, it has a lot more capacity headroom for production complexity than money markets.
No.484748
>>484741stop being such a utopian idiot.
No.484749
>>484744>Unhappiness doesn't come from exploitationNot all unhappiness comes from exploitation, but exploitation definitely causes people to become unhappy, and make work feel meaningless.
No.484750
>458701
you are such a stupid pseud moo and you always take these retarded positions and defend them adamantly like you are just looking for argument
No.484751
>>484748>stop being such a utopian idiot.It is not utopian to ask what would allow us to free the working class from necessary labor and set society free to solve the sort of problems that automation can really excel at. Human labor is a pitiful source of material wealth. Planning should be directed at abolishing it.
No.484752
>>484749Obivously yes. It's hard to simply search for evidence that class exploitation causes inequality, for again, obvious reasons, but here greater economic inequality causes unhappiness:
https://hbr.org/2016/01/income-inequality-makes-whole-countries-less-happy No.484753
>>484746>No you don't need it, but cybernetics can definitely accommodate all that varietyOh, I agree with that. It's just that it is hard to really take advantage of that headroom in a system of production that is limited by human labor power.
No.484754
>>484742>Communism is not a government-less societyActually, it is. Government of people is replaced by administration of things. At least this is how it was once phrased.
No.484755
is it truly senpai himself that graces this board?
pwease explain acceleration uwu
domooo
No.484756
PEOPLE INTO CYBERSOC HAVE TO REALIZE THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT MACHINES!
You just can't run a program and make people behave like automatons. They will rebel against you! Detroit exploded in the 1960s over shit like that. To really take advantage of these ideas, you have to remove human labor power from the production process first. Then you can direct machines and exploit this technology fully.
I like this stuff, but get rid of wage labor first.
No.484757
>>484755>pwease explain acceleration uwuSure, if you want to accelerate capitalism into outright collapse, you have to forcibly reduce the rate of profit by shortening hours of labor. Capital always and everywhere responds to the fall in the rate of profit by introducing improved technology to reduce the employment of labor power in production, in order to recover the rate of profit. This sets the stage for a further reduction of hours of labor and further acceleration in the development of the forces of social production.
If you have further questions, consult Capital, volume 1, chapter 15.
No.484758
>>484752good point inequality is what "actuates" the unhappiness.
>>484753>Oh, I agree with that. It's just that it is hard to really take advantage of that headroom in a system of production that is limited by human labor power.So it's future proof ?
No.484759
>>484758>So it's future proof ?No, you just start at the other end. You start by reducing the amount of human labor power available to the system. This forces the system to innovate with improved technology and methods of production.
No.484760
>>484758You have to starve the system of human labor power to get it to innovate with technology.
No.484761
>>484759>>484760oh now i get it, labor supply shortages cause technical innovation in labor productivity.
No.484762
>>484761Yes, And it is possible to artificially (consciously) create this labor shortage simply by reducing hours of labor. Which is what we want to do anyways, since we aim to abolish wage labor entirely.
No.484764
>>484740the state is a tool of class repression. if there is only one class then there is no longer a state. as the other anon said, goberment != state. it's possible that new classes emerge in socialism
>>484753>It's just that it is hard to really take advantage of that headroom in a system of production that is limited by human labor power.literally every mode of production to date, and every mode of production that will ever be, will be limited by human labor power. or are you one of those people who think that robots run themselves? that they never wear out?
we can certainly replace lots of labourers with machines, but you still have to contend with the AM/FM problem, namely living in a world of Actual Machines rather than Fucking Magic
>>484755>is it truly senpai himself that graces this board?I doubt it, but paul has shown himself to be too good a shitposter to not be relatively online
No.484765
>>484764>the state is a tool of class repression. if there is only one class then there is no longer a state. as the other anon said, goberment != state. it's possible that new classes emerge in socialismI believe i was talking about communism, of which Engels said:
<"The interference of the state power in social relations becomes superfluous in one sphere after another, and then ceases of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production. The state is not "abolished", it withers away."Of course, It is all the rage these days to disown Engels, so go ahead and add your voice.
>>484764>literally every mode of production to date, and every mode of production that will ever be, will be limited by human labor power.While you are at it, disown Marx too, who wrote that even under capitalism labor cease to be the well-spring of material wealth:
>" Labour no longer appears so much to be included within the production process; rather, the human being comes to relate more as watchman and regulator to the production process itself. (What holds for machinery holds likewise for the combination of human activities and the development of human intercourse.) No longer does the worker insert a modified natural thing [Naturgegenstand] as middle link between the object [Objekt] and himself; rather, he inserts the process of nature, transformed into an industrial process, as a means between himself and inorganic nature, mastering it. He steps to the side of the production process instead of being its chief actor. In this transformation, it is neither the direct human labour he himself performs, nor the time during which he works, but rather the appropriation of his own general productive power, his understanding of nature and his mastery over it by virtue of his presence as a social body – it is, in a word, the development of the social individual which appears as the great foundation-stone of production and of wealth."Please. Just. Stop.
No.484766
>>484765>I believe i was talking about communism, of which Engels said:I feel this just gets into sophistry about what "government" actually is. feel free to use the anarchist definition if you want. you could read "The government of persons" as being synonymous with the state, for Engels
>the human being comes to relate more as watchman and regulator to the production process itselfthis is still labour. or are you making the case that programmers and sysadmins are not working class? to me it seems Marx changed his mind on this in Capital vol 1. it is still labour, no matter if it is mostly muscle or mostly gray matter that is involved in the process
No.484768
>>484750It isn't retarded to say that exploitation doesn't cause unhappiness, saying otherwise is like hasan tier "ppl are alienated because they don't get the full value of their labor"
>>484751Shortening the work day is one of the general directions of the movement. This is all that is needed to be said about it.
>>484754By "government" i don't mean state, the domination of one class over the other is a state, the simple administrative organ is a government, so yeah, it's not a government-less society.
No.484769
>>484768>By "government" i don't mean state, the domination of one class over the other is a state, the simple administrative organ is a government, so yeah, it's not a government-less society.Frankly, I don't care what YOU or any other anon mean by the term – however well-intended. Show me where the commonly accepted definition of the word is not associated with an organ for exercising control over the actions of members of a community. This is exactly what Engels argued would no longer exist when the state withered away.
In any case, we are not going to settle this here and should be satisfied to simply accept that we disagree.
No.484770
>>484768>Shortening the work day is one of the general directions of the movement. This is all that is needed to be said about it.Marx called the shortening of hours of labor the "modest magna charta" of the working class. I don't recall he framed ANY other demand this way. Perhaps you can school me to the contrary.
No.484771
>>484769just fucking look at yourself:
>>484740>how do you … cannot manage production … the stateobviously here you meant a simple administrative organ, not a tool of class oppression
Then I tell you
<Communism is not a government-less societybecause I tried to tell you that communism doesn't exclude a managerial organ, to which you reply
>Government of people is replaced by administration of thingsSO MAKE UP YOUR MIND ALREADY No.484772
>>484770And Lenin said "He who doesn't work, doesn't eat"
There will be a shitton of work to do after the revolution, if the conditions will be especially shitty, like in pre-WW2 USSR, people will have to do more intense labor for faster industrialization and development of the productive forces. We can't know for sure, and running your entire campaign on "shortening the work day" instead of "political power to the people" is peak retardation. Well excuse me, Jehu, but we don't need a revolution, we can just add a shorter workday reform!
No.484773
>459036
>It isn't retarded to say that exploitation doesn't cause unhappiness
Yes it is, that specifically is retarded.
>459036
>woweee colourful bold text
Seethe pseud. You aren't nearly as intelligent nor compelling as you think you are
No.484774
>>484758>>484752>It's hard to simply search for evidence that class exploitation causes inequalityRather I meant to say it is hard to simply search for evidence that class exploitation causes inequality (since class based criticisms of capitalism are not readily available). Therefore inequality causing unhappiness is a decent substitute metric.
No.484775
>>484773Real life scenario:
- Work at google.
- Exploited, but less
- happy, as far as for materialistic concerns
oh no no anti-work bros how do we ever recover??
Maybe you mean "abuse" and not "exploitation" and if you do use exploitation when you really should be using abuse, then read a fucking book.
Marx spent his youth explaining alienation during capitalism, tying it all together with commodity production, with philosophy and so on, and you come in here saying "nah, fuck that, surplus value extraction is the source of unhappiness"
And then you call me pseuds.
>colourful bold texthey anglo, use PostLeft if you don't like colors
No.484776
>>484771I was originally reacting to this quote:
>In [Glushkov's] plan, this completely decentralized, vast computational network would have eventually entirely removed the state from the tasks of economic planning and distribution of services. Needless to say, the project was vehemently opposed by the Soviet government, after an initial phase of mild enthusiasm quickly evaporated.Since under communism there is no state to manage production. And there is no government to manage production. I wondered aloud how is production managed under communism without a state or a government?
I was throwing a question out for discussion. The fact that the writer's work eventually removed the state from economic planning would not necessarily be a negative if the state itself was supposed to wither away. The question was what would replace it.
No.484777
>>484776>how is production managed under communism without a state or a government?1. Communism as a state-less society means
STRICTLY a society without state as a class oppression tool
2. Glushkov's opposition to the soviet "state" was just an opposition to that specific administrative tool, he obviously proposed a decentralized and separated from "the state" aka the class oppression tool.
Glushkov proposed a managerial/administrative organ that would have removed /the state/ from economic interference. So the class oppression tool wouldn't influence the administrative tool.
What are you wondering about? States and governments don't manage production, administrative organs do. Those organs may be called "state" or "government" but that's misuse of "state" or "government"
No.484778
>459045
economic exploitation causes unhappiness. Literally everyone that has ever worked is aware of this. You are just being retarded because grass is a contact allergen of yours and you think being contrarian makes you look smart for some stupid reason.
>hey anglo
literally an anglo
No.484779
>>484772>And Lenin said "He who doesn't work, doesn't eat"I am not a Leninist. Neither was Lenin, for that matter. He studied Capital.
Even if a political revolution were necessary today, its sole necessary measure upon achieving power would be to immediately reduce hours of labor to eight hours a week or less.
No.484780
>>484778>economic exploitation causes unhappiness. Literally everyone that has ever worked is aware of this.Nope, again, comfy google employees and labor aristocrats are still exploited, but not unhappy.
>literally an anglonope
>>484779>I am not a Leninist.Who cares? Lenin was right. Work is necessary. Promising the proletariat they will have butterflies and fairy dust is only going to result in their frustration after the civil war with the fact that the nation needs rebuilding, and fast.
>Even if a political revolution were necessary todayYou don't consider political revolution necessary? Then you're not a Marxist.
>its sole necessary measure upon achieving power would be to immediately reduce hours of labor to eight hours a week or less.you're not talking about any specific country, any specific conditions and/or any specific way in which revolution would happen. I wonder why. Where is the nation that had a revolution without damaging its productive forces and/or inheriting the broken economy after the disruptive actions taken by workers?
>its sole measureno. If there was as measure, it would be the political power of the proletariat, ideally completely its own.
No.484781
The Internationale says
"Весь мир насилья мы разрушим
До основанья , а затем
Мы наш мы новый мир построим,
Кто был никем тот станет всем!"
~ roughly
"We'll destroy the world of violence
To the ground and after that
Our own, a new world we shall build
Who was nothing will be everything"
----
It's obviously focusing on the fact that the proletariat will seize power, destroy the old world, aka the bourgeois state, and /build/ a new world where people will matter, aka dictatorship of the proletariat. Building the new world means work, they accept that and they know they will have to work after the revolution. It's not
"We'll peacefully seize the means of production
And then we'll plan it and shorten the workday
And ban cops because they are bastards
And also everyone will work less"
No.484782
>>484779this is actually an earlier quote from western history but you yevrei wouldn't be aware of it
No.484783
>>484780>You don't consider political revolution necessary? Then you're not a Marxist.It's not that i don't think it necessary, but I don't think we should wait for one. Revolutions are contingent events. We need to think about how to move ahead without waiting for something that's outside our control. And that initiative is not to be found in bourgeois electoralism. We should be creative with direct action.
>>484780
>you're not talking about any specific country, any specific conditions and/or any specific way in which revolution would happen.I am only talking about the advanced countries, and, in first place, the United States. For too long communists in the advanced countries have sat on their fat asses and done absolutely nothing. They need to act! The less developed countries cannot carry this thing alone.
>>484780
>If there was as measure, it would be the political power of the proletariatThe seizure of state power by the proletariat is not an end in itself. It is only a means to the complete abolition of classes. It is absolutely NOT "completely its own." It is merely a suicide pact of an exploited class.
The proletariat must abolish itself. It has no choice. Any other course leads to disaster!
No.484784
>>484783>It's not that i don't think it necessary, but I don't think we should wait for one. Revolutions are contingent events. We need to think about how to move ahead without waiting for something that's outside our control. And that initiative is not to be found in bourgeois electoralism. We should be creative with direct action.Cringe. Revolution doesn't come by itself. You should know it, but you don't, why?
>I am only talking about the advanced countries, and, in first place, the United States. For too long communists in the advanced countries have sat on their fat asses and done absolutely nothing. They need to act! The less developed countries cannot carry this thing alone.Cool, go out and copwatch or something, but that won't do jack shit. You need to inform the masses. You need to organize the masses. You need vanguardism and you need a plan, not just any silly random direct action. You've read what is to be done, right?
>>484783>The seizure of state power by the proletariat>means abolition of classeswhat?
>It is absolutely NOT "completely its own."What do you mean by this? The proletariat shouldn't have al the power? I guess "all power to the councils" is a shit slogan, sorry everyone, we need to give bourgeoisie some power too, you know, just to balance it out.
No.484785
>>484780>nope, again, comfy google employees and labor aristocrats are still exploited, but not unhappyHow do you know? Of course they are directly unhappy with wage cucking to some degree, especially if they are class conscious. They are also uncomfortable with the control their employer and management has over them. It is also not possible to extricate all of the factors that economic exploitation has on a person due to their CLASS. This includes things like alienation from labour and commodification of all aspects of life. All aspects of exploitation.
You claimed
>Unhappiness doesn't come from exploitationWhich is patently false.
No.484786
>>484781Comrade,
The Internationale was written in 1871, when the cutting edge technology of the time was the steam engine and the telegraph. It would be sixty years before production based on exchange value broke down and 100 years before the last commodity money disappeared from circulation. Fifty percent of Europe and America still farmed for a living. Capitalism was still in its infancy; it had not yet laid the material foundation for communism.
Try joining the 21st century with the rest of us for a change, instead of living in the dark ages.
No.484787
>>484785>How do you know? Of course they are directly unhappy with wage cucking to some degreeNope, happy with having good work conditions, work day and manageable work intensity. It's a fact. People don't need to own all the value they produce, and the goal of communism isn't to give them all of it, neither is it the cause of unhappiness and alienation.
>They are also uncomfortable with the control their employer and management has over themOmfg this is literally hasan tier "democratic workplace" shilling. Ah yes, famously, what Marx was advocating for "democratic ownership of the workplace"
>All aspects of exploitationLiterally not, capitalist exploitation is defined in the framework of extraction of surplus value, and that's it. Alienation from products of labor doesn't mean jack shit here, not in this relation. Yeah, it's related, the capitalist then appropriates the products of their labor and sells them on a market, sure, but that's already a bigger picture then exploitation.
>you claimed … which is falseNo, it's not, unhappiness comes from many different aspects, like abuse, where the worker needs to do highly intense labor for a long time, but not exploitation in all and any of its forms.
If you think:
>Worker is very comfy, BUT>Worker knows he doesn't get the full value of his labor>Therefore greedy worker wants moreThen the source of the worker's unhappiness isn't exploitation, nor material insecurity, since as pointed out, worker is very comfy, but the source is the worker's materialistic attitude towards the world, and it's internal, not the system's fault. Capitalism isn't at fault for mommy making you go to sleep early.
Address my Marx point, do you understand alienation as Marx puts it?
No.484788
>>484784Yeah, after 2000+ blog posts, hundred of answers on askFM and god knows how many tweets, I am really disappointed to learn I can't convince you in one response on leftypol.
This is me sad.
No.484789
>>484786>The Internationale was written in 1871This is the Russian internationale, the one written in the 1920s or later.
What is the fundamental change? Nothing, only evolution of automation technology. You may not believe it, but utopians back even before 1850s were making the argument that steam machines and so on can drastically shorten the workday, but the Russian revolution didn't happen because workers decided socialism is better, but because 1. horrible conditions 2. they were persuaded to chase their political power and assisted in their struggle by the vanguard.
>instead of living in the dark agespls utopian
No.484790
>>484788wdym by this??? You think you're an awesome revolutionary for writing blog posts? You want to say that I'm irrelevant and it doesn't matter?? But it's about you, not me dude. Read, more, write less
No.484791
>>484777>States and governments don't manage production, administrative organs do.States have been managing production under capitalism since the Great War. How do you not know this? Britain managed war production and much of early discussion by Keynes is based on this. Hitler's Germany manage production as well. The USG directly built 1800 factories during World War II. Japan as well. Af ter that WWII, the US went over to managing the production of surplus value and took a mostly hands-off attitude toward production of use value. But it still intervened when necessary in various industries, like auto and aircraft given their national defense significance.
Please. Just. Stop.
No.484792
>>484777What the hell do you think is the Defense Production Act? How do you think Operation Warp Speed was organized? That was the state (government) organizing production) for god's sake!
No.484793
>>459181>You can be happy in general or with your job and still be unhappy you are being exploitedMore "bitter at the thought of" being exploited. Unhappiness is a general state that people find themselves in, it's not just when you are saddened by a thought.
>>484791>>484792By your shitty logic, communism isn't a state-less society.
Again, state is only meant as a tool of one class to dominate the other. Statelessness of communism comes from it not having classes and not having anybody to dominate anybody else.
Communism being stateless doesn't mean there won't be a government organ.
How are you two so fucking retarded?
No.484794
>>459198
THE UNHAPPY STATE OF BEING DOESN'T COME FROM EXTRACTION OF SURPLUS VALUE, WHAT'S WRONG ABOUT THIS?
No.484795
>>459211
Okay, it seems that I have misread you. If you claim "Exploitation causes slight inconvenience" and not "long term depression, alienation, lonelyness, anxiety, stress and so on" then I agree with you, capitalist exploitation definitely can cause a slight inconvenience, just like soggy socks.
No.484796
>>459216
China is doing pretty well. USSR too, made their own transistor just 3 years later. USSR had problematic networking, but that's just the struggles it had in its stagnating phase.
No.484797
>>484796>3 years later1 year dumb namefag
No.484798
>>459226
Back to /g/ please.
No.484799
>>459231
Good, thanks.
No.484800
>>459236
china doesnt have the ability to produce semiconductors
No.484801
>>484800>china doesnt have the ability to produce semiconductorshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plantseven the fucking DPRK has silicon foundries, retard
No.484802
Someone remind me why this Jehu brainlet is relevant again? Just seems like a juvenile boomer who thinks that every word that Marx and Engels wrote is sacred and holy.
No.484803
>>484802>Just seems like a juvenile boomer who thinks that every word that Marx and Engels wrote is sacred and holy.Says the retarded egoposter that took the Stirner maymay way too serious and started believing it for real lmao.
No.484804
>>484802> Jehu … Just seems like a juvenile boomer who thinks that every word that Marx and Engels wrote is sacred and holy.Guilty as charged!
Marx, Engels, Einstein, Darwin and Freud: Five thinkers whose ideas are still driving scientific knowledge more than century after their deaths.
No.484806
>>484805Retard. Big talk, no substance.
No.484808
Jehu compares Marx and Engels to Einstein, Darwin and Freud; anon catches vapors and declaims:
>>484807
>omg this jehu bastard thinks that marxism is a religion lmaoNo wonder everyone is anonymous around here. Who would want to be associated with such stupidity.
No.484809
>>484808You don't understand what irony is?
No.484811
take this shit to a separate thread instead please, both of you
No.484812
Does anyone know the relationship between the turn toward cybernetics and the Kosygin (or Liberman) reforms in 1965? And does anyone know how this related to Agengeyan recommendations.
Also, in 1967 Maurice Dobbs did a review of Kantorovich's work on Optimal Planning. Has anyone seen a copy of it? JSTOR won't cough it up for me.
No.484813
This is interesting:
https://sci-hub.st/https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2727266.pdfAn Excerpt:
>As part of the Khrushchev thaw, Kantorovich and his fellow economist V. S. Nemchinov were empowered in 1958 to begin planning and recruiting for a new laboratory for the application of statistical and mathematical methods in economics. This laboratory, to be affiliated with the Siberian Branch of the Soviet Academy of Sciences in Novosibirsk, was to work with the newly created Central Mathematical Economics Institute in Moscow. The geography of the decision is telling. Novosibirsk, some 5,000 kilometers east of Moscow, was a safe place for ideas too radical for the nation's capital. As a nonparty member, Kantorovich was not eligible to direct such a laboratory, but he was named its deputy director. He recruited heavily from his students and colleagues in Leningrad, and soon assembled a talented group to staff the new laboratory. Among those at Novosibirsk, probably the most illustrious today (1989) is Abel Agenbegyan, an important economic adviser to Mikhail Gorbachev.JUST FYI: Abel Agenbegyan, adviser to Gorbachev during the final days of the USSR, was also the brash young economist and protege of Kantorovich who wrote the report that killed off the reduction of hours of labor in the S.U. His recommendation ultimately drove the Soviet Union into Brezhnev-era stagnation, leading to its inevitable demise.
No.484814
Maurice Dobbs in 1967 on Kantorovich's ideas, about three years after the SU wnet back on its promise to reduce hours of labor and about 3 years before the west was about to enter the biggest crisis since the Great Depression:
https://sci-hub.st/https://www.jstor.org/stable/40401275I haven't read it yet. But will do do this week.
No.484815
I am getting a better handle on where K's ideas line up on the spectrum.
>Kantorovich's life can be divided both temporally and geographically into three periods: Leningrad (1912-60), Novosibirsk (1960-71), and Moscow (1971-86). During the Leningrad period, he received his education and made his greatest discoveries; during the Novosibirsk period, he founded an institute from which to propagate his ideas; and during the Moscow period, he had his greatest influence on the economic policy and economic reform of the USSR. We consider these three periods in order.
According to the writer, then, Kantorovich's greatest influence on economic policy in the Soviet Union came precisely at the time when the Soviet Union experienced its greatest stagnation and was tottering on the edge of collapse.
Why is this? And why was this also the time that he was given the Nobel Prize for his discoveries?
No.484817
>His bibliography from [his Siberia Institute] period lists over 100 articles in economic theory, many of them dealing with questions of capital investment and accumulation, paralleling the growth theory so popular at that time in the West.
Of course, K ran into strong criticism that his methods were not Marxist, even bourgeois. To counter such criticism he employed the disingenuous tactic of arguing against the words of western critics:
>By making Western authorities the spokesmen for criticism that was emanating mainly from the Communist party itself, Kantorovich found the perfect foil for his counterthrust.
His aim, as this writer argues was to free prices from the administrative system:
>According to Petrakov, Kantorovich never gave up on the possibility of "a restructuring of the price system on a scientific basis-the very restructuring whose necessity was later declared by the 27th Party Congress."
No.484818
I think Kantorovich's approach might conflate use value and exchange value, or just simply ignore the difference between the two. I will examine this in a post on my blog.
No.484819
>>484818interesting PDF finds
>I think Kantorovich's approach might conflate use value and exchange value, or just simply ignore the difference between the twodo you have a quote where he does this? I know Kantorovich has his "shadow prices" thing but those are not exchange values. from what I know of Kantorovich's work it seems he was mostly focused on calculation in kind. is it perhaps related to Gosplan, which did planning in terms of rubles for certain sectors?
No.484820
>>484819>do you have a quote where he does this?Not from him directly yet, but from a presentation of his argument made at the time of his death on his Nobel Prize winning ideas from the first of the two PDFs
>We are now at Kantorovich's fundamental economic insight: An optimal plan is inseparable from its prices. Even if a plan was entirely in quantities, and said nothing about prices, if that plan was optimal, it would imply the existence of resolving multipliers that function just like prices. The other side of this is that if the wrong prices are used and managers attempt to maximize value, then optimality will not be achieved. Finally, with a suboptimal plan, no such resolving multipliers exist because there is no separation of convex sets. There are no price implications of suboptimality. In the same PDF, the writer says Kantorovich wanted to put prices on what he called a scientific basis according to his colleagues:
>The mounting stagnation and poor economic performance of the Soviet economy under Brezhnev and his immediate successors gave further credence to the forces seeking reform of the Soviet economy. According to Petrakov, Kantorovich never gave up on the possibility of "a restructuring of the price system on a scientific basis-the very restructuring whose necessity was later declared by the 27th Party Congress." So, at least according to this writer, he conflated use value and exchange value. But This does require some confirmation.
No.484821
>>484820that does make it seem like Kantorovich is a bit confused on this issue yes. but on the other hand it might be the result of the way Gosplan was set up, inertia in the system etc
>a restructuring of the price system on a scientific basisthis sounds a bit like "Classical labour values" by Dave Zachariah and Cockshott, where they derive value from first principles:
https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/101915/1/MPRA_paper_101915.pdfTL;DR: value derives from the largest left eigenvector of a matrix R that describes the necessary consumption of the workforce
No.484822
>>484819>do you have a quote where he does this?On page 135 of Kantorovich's book we find this:
>"In principle, prices should approximate to otsenki . . . even an approximate agreement of prices with otsenki would mean that both prices and valuations reflected hire cost, rent, etc. . . . This would result in a change in price relationships in comparison with existing prices- in particular, a certain relative increase in prices for those types of output (and of services) in the production of which large, specialized and also scarce equipment are being used, namely, prices of metal, petrol, coal, cement and railway transport"In other words, prices should more or less conform to his optimized calculations. Dobbs comments on this:
>"We seem to be confronted with yet another kind of price — a novel type of animal – different from those we have known hitherto: one that can be derived only when the particular plan among feasible plans which is optimal has been discovered, and one that when it is arrived at will both indicate what is optimal in methods of production and ensure that optimal methods are maintained. No.484823
>>484822this sounds a bit like Kantorovich is talking about complementary slackness
No.484824
>>484823>this sounds a bit like Kantorovich is talking about complementary slacknessWell, it is clear he is not talking about prices. That is for sure. The relations here reflect a predetermined plan and may be expressed in currency terms, but this is no more money prices than department operating budgets in a single capitalist factory.
No.484825
>>484823You can state so many screws and so many fenders to be purchase for the assembly line in money terms, but that doesn't make the money terms prices.
No.484826
>>484825myeah. we can also just use labour values. but from my experiments it seems it's not actually necessary or even possible to compute and optimal solution. after all, if we have realtime data then the linear program changes all the time. actually reaching an optimal basis is likely impossible when we're dealing with 10⁹ variables, even if we can get within say 1% of optimum
No.484827
>>484826>actually reaching an optimal basis is likely impossible when we're dealing with 10⁹ variablesI think it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish with your planning. Planning that is strictly subordinated to the needs of the community of producers is probably not nearly as complicated as it is made out to be.
No.484828
>>484827Kantorovich is making a mathematical argument. but the argument he makes is probably moot because solving LP optimally is most likely NP-hard. which is why I point out that strict optimality isn't that important. and yeah, what's important is that people are actually able to use the system, as you point out
No.484829
>>484755meant to be directed to
>>484757 No.484830
NEW COCKSHOTT PLANNING BOOK OUT SOONhttps://twitter.com/PaulCockshott/status/1429176060000804869This man building theory for the 21st century nearly all by himself lol.
No.484832
Even though Cockshott hates me (gay) I still think he's unthinkably based.
No.484833
While cockshott is very based I feel a bit bad for him, he's writing all this cybersoc shit and no one is doing that in reality, the guy will be like Marx that when he's alive none of the things he writes about will happen buy maybe (hopefully) in a century some socialist states will adopt cyber socialism and Cockshott will be right there with Marx, Engels and Lenin in the commie hall of fame.
No.484836
cybersocialism is cool until I hack the gibson
we arent ready for the future, not by a long shot
No.484837
thoughts on this?
>[Wright] purports to believe that both hands and sex organs 'labor', so if he is consistent then he must believe that both the action of the sex organs and those of hands and brains are abstract labour and thus comparable in quantitative terms>Wanking is widespread and hands are not just used for making thingshttps://www.midwesternmarx.com/articles/reply-to-mr-wright-by-paul-cockshottI for one am excited for a possible future wanking-and-penetration-based mode of production
>>484830sweet. paul is an absolute writing machine. puts my lazy ass to shame
>>484833we need a revolution somewhere before we can put all this stuff into practice. unless things can be built bottom-up somehow, which I suspect is another way to go about this. even succdems can get in on this via a employee funds type of scheme, which is how Allende got things started in Chile
No.484838
>>484833Some brave souls has to translate his works to Chinese or something.
No.484839
>>484838Spanish would be better and easier. Id imagine the Cuban and Venezuelan governments would love this shit especially if these concepts are combined with crypto too sidestep US sanctions..and I think PSUV and CPC cadre are more easy too reach then CCP people….and probably more desperate.
No.484841
>>484840Not larping but how do we get this too psuv people?
No.484842
>>484841I think this board tried this once years ago with no success.
No.484843
>>484841I think it's already being tried, there's spanish-speaking study groups that follow Cockshott's work but idk if they're associated with their local commie parties.
No.484844
>>484830Very interested in this.
>>484838Already exists.
>>484840For Cockshott in Spanish I believe the book he did with Maxi Nieto (Ciber-comunismo) is more up to date.
No.484845
>>484839Eh, Cockshott's ideas and the whole reestructuration of the economy in that way probably requires an immense amount of money (in US dollars) that the cuban and venezuelan governments don't have.
No.484846
>>484498So, when is some madlad going to pit Cockshott against Wolff in a stream debate so Cockshott can rip his coop-capitalism to shreds?
No.484849
>>484848stop using that grotesque pic
No.484850
>>484841The PSUV isn't interested in doing any actual real socialism you fool. You're falling for military social democracy with red flags yet again.
No.484852
>>484851Oh man, operation CyberWiphala, I remember that shit.
I made the middle flag No.484853
>>484840We need to get this to:
>Podemos (Spain)>MAS (Bolivia)>PSUV (Venezuela)>PCC (Cuba)>PL (Peru)>Members of the Constituent Constitutional Assembly (Chile)>PD (Colombia)>Morena (Mexico)>UNES (Ecuador)Who else>
No.484856
>>484854This doesn't belong into this thread, which is about Cybernetics and socialist planning.
But if you have to know, Cockshott thinks that it undermines womens rights.
you can go to his website
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/ and read his articles in the politics sections from after 2010,
obviously i'm not linking directly to it because it's off topicAlso the neoliberals tried to cancel one of Cockshott's lectures about the history of wages under the pretense of related social causes.
No.484857
>>484856it's not off topic schizo
No.484858
>>484854i genuinely do not care and anyone who does care is a complete and utter charlatan who ought to be avoided at all costs
No.484859
>>484853also none of these groups will ever give a shit about some PDF or video being sent to them and the best way to spread Cockshott's ideas is to either create a party for it and hope the platform is "stolen" or join those parties and advocate such a platform yourself
BTW im pretty sure Cockshott supports market socialism as a transitionary stage towards his model, so maybe supporting that instead is a better idea.
No.484860
>>484838TANS is already available in Chinese. pdf related. feel free to spread it with chink comrades
>>484839>>484841>>484843I'm involved with some spanish cyberneticians, and they've said that translating good critiques of Austrian economics would be very useful as there is an active debate around this in Brazil at the moment
>>484846penispew vs dickwolff would be a very interesting debate
>>484854>muh transeswe already know paul has boomer takes on queer stuff anon. no one cares
No.484861
>>484860>no one caresthat's the problem, faggot
No.484862
>>484861class comes first
No.484863
>>484862don't tell me, tell him, stupid bitch
oh wait, you actually don't stand up for class and let this divisive shit pass because you're just a fucking conservative cocksucking little spineless bitch who only wants to appeal to /pol/acks because thats the shithole you fucking rat came crawling out of
bitch
No.484864
>>484862then why is cockshott wasting time on idpol
No.484865
>>484858Paul cockshott has done great work for socialist planning and cybernetics, you ought to be able to recognize this even if you disagree with him on other topics that are unrelated to economic planning.
No.484866
>>484863meds
>>484865cool, also i genuinely do not care and anyone who does care is a complete and utter charlatan who ought to be avoided at all costs
No.484867
>>484863>implying I'm on twitterI've talked to paul a couple of times, and there's more than enough stuff to talk about without bringing dumb idpol shit up. every second you spend pretending this discussion is worthwhile is a second you're not talking about class
>>484864beats me
No.484868
>>469429
meds
No.484870
>>484867>it's not important>let me go on a cope marathon on why it's important that dicksnot keeps spouting that shitlost retard
No.484871
>>484867again
you dense motherfucking bitch
tell him it's not important or you're not to be taken serious
but you wont because you're just a stupid bitch faggot eating the shit right off his ass
No.484874
>>484869Tried listening to it but the episodes are just way too long a bit unstructured and too much off the cuff for my taste.
No.484875
>>484833When their is a socialist revolution in an industrialized nation, hopefully some communists will convince the leadership to implement his ideas and escape the traps the the soviets faced.
No.484876
>>484851Most based thing i did in my life btw, it was epic.
No.484877
>>484851if anyone is a Bolivian here, could you perhaps start a petition to include cockshotts ideas
No.484878
>>484877We have confirmed anons from Mexico, Peru, Chile,Venezuela, Colombia and Brazil, unfortunately none from Bolivia AFAIK.
The sad thing as I said before is that cockshott's plan probably requires a fuckton of money, the governments of Venezuela, Cuba and Bolivia are way too worried about…you know…surviving against the genocidal US to implement cockshott's ideas, and those probably require a fuckton of money on US dollars to implement, and that's exactly the one thing those governments lack the most.
No.484879
>>484854He's so based, literally the perfect Marxist.
No.484880
>>484854He's just telling how it is.
No.484881
>>484879>on the (((trans))) questionMy favorite text of Marx's
No.484882
>>484879the perfect marxist wouldn't care about radlib screeching either way
No.484883
>>484873the way type B photons behave is quite similar to how multi-layer insulation (MLI) blankets work. I've worked a bit with space thermal systems, so that's the way I prefer to explain how the greenhouse effect works. Earth is a space ship and capital is altering Earth's thermal emission properties without realizing it
No.484886
>>484885So the lectures and study material is only available for those that enroll ?
Or are they going to put this stuff online afterwards ?
No.484888
bump
No.484892
>>484855TERF island strikes again
No.484893
>>482171>>484854This is embarrassing init bruv
No.484894
>>484893its not really, transgender should just let it go, he's in his 70s, why cantt they accept that not everyone is going to accept the as real women
No.484895
>>484894because wokeism isn't an ideology built on logic, but a religion built of conformity
No.484896
>>484890Kek, it's also from Rob Thorpe. Don't waste time on him. He admitted that he is too stupid for marxist theory.
No.484899
>>484892you are of course allowed to disagree with Cockshott
but your behavior is that of a bully
the hate-labels that mimic religious persecution, that's cancerous.
what you are doing is using the language of exclusion, when you should be using the language of counter arguments.
should do self criticism and reflect on your bad behavior.
No.484900
>>484895wokies are the wanahabists of the left (if the even are on the left, most of them seem like economic capitalists at best some are socdems)
No.484903
>>484902>What did he mean by this ?ur mum 4chan pls go
No.484904
>>484902going to guess someone stole or vandalized some personal property of his
t. someone who had his moped stolen about a year ago
No.484905
>>484902happy to see paul finally have an avatar
No.484907
>>484902Some people are beyond the property rights spook, but it needs to be all people.
No.484908
>>484902please provide link i went to his account and could not find that tweet
No.484909
Why does cockshot being a basic 2nd wave feminist make you people so mad?
Since when was 2ndvwave feminism not more or less orthodoxy in leftist spaces on the issue of feminism?
No.484910
>>484899holy fucking idealism
No.484911
>>484909>Why does cockshot being a basic 2nd wave feminist make you people so mad? who are you talking to? to me this is just feminist infighting. who gives a shit?
No.484913
>>495577
Good exercise in Marxist political economy, but too theoretical, nigh-utopian for the present day.
(It’s technologically possible, but let’s focus on actually establishing the DotP as the dominant world political force first)
No.484914
>>484913You can only establish DOTP if you establish cybersyn at the same time, the current ML model is purely damage control and defensive in nature
No.484915
>>495577
its mandatory reading for all Marxists imo. It's great for a counterexample to the Austrian arguments against planned economies. However as a practical guide it's a bit dated, relying on 1980s tech.
Any modern planned economy would probably end up implementing something similar but with modern tech.
No.484916
>>484912>shaikhbased
take the shaikh pill bro
No.484917
>>495577
It was written with the USSR still existing in mind. It is a valuable book, boot at the time of writing world communism collapsed.
Also, it is interesting that Cockshott (coming from a more marxist-leninist tradition) and Michael Albert&Robin Hahnel (coming from a more anarchist/horizontal shiet) made a very very similar proposition - democratic planning with the help of IT and computing power etc.
No.484918
Very good book. Even if you completely ignore the suggestions he lays out, there are really good analysis of economics in the former socialist bloc
No.484919
>>484912Cockshot is pushing against Hegel because he thinks it cuts people off from contemporary scientific advances, he called it "people get stuck in a time warp". He's likely right about this.
>Look at his unequal exchange videosI did those are excellent, i would recommend those.
>I also have seen the criticism>Now I have seen his book get called irrelevantWell Cockshott is a socialist, so you have to account for people masking their anti-socialism when they attack his works, there are many such cases where they really just try to socially discredit him without refuting him. Your post could technically fall into this category, because you aren't really making any attempts at refuting what he said.
Anyway thanks for the visual book selection pic
No.484920
what just happened?
No.484921
>>484920Two threads about Cockshott and TANS were merged here.
No.484922
>>484912to add to what
>>484919 is saying, actual criticism of Cockshott & Cottrell's proposal tends to be things like how to deal with renumeration or getting away from TANS' assuming things happen in a single nation. also mathematical arguments
>>495801ah. figured as much just a few seconds later
No.484923
>>484912>But the guy is also seriously retarded. Look at his unequal exchange videos and his takes on Hegel. I also have seen the criticism that his take on the LTV is neo-riccardian and not marxian. Now I have seen his most famous book "Towards a new type of Socialism" get called irrelevant for most socialist parties in this world. Yeah thats pretty much all true.
No.484924
>>484912>I also have seen the criticism that his take on the LTV is neo-riccardian and not marxian.source on this claim? sounds interesting
No.484925
>>484922>actual criticism of Cockshott & Cottrell's proposal tends to be things like how to deal with renumeration or getting away from TANS' assuming things happen in a single nation. also mathematical argumentsSofar nobody was able to poke a hole in their mathematical framework, sometimes people just try to warm up the calculation debate. (Socialists won that decisively) TANS actually has a rather clever scheme for remuneration, it's very resilient against ruthless careerists and power-brokers. Can you at least say what you find problematic about it. I have to ask because i'm finding it rather suspicious that people are dunking on Cockshott but never actually give a clear reason why. TANS has a section where it deals with internationalism and how socialist countries can scale up cybernetics beyond nations, it even deals with how it's possible to interface a cybernetic economy with a capitalist economy.
No.484926
>>484925>Sofar nobody was able to poke a hole in their mathematical frameworkThats because its internally consistent. The problem is not that C&C et al are wrong or even that their conclusions are bad its that their founding assumptions are misdirection and bait made up by liberals in the 1800s. The transformation problem isn't "not a problem" because you can derive prices, its not a problem because Marx never intended to transform values into prices because that is not what his work was about.
The whole thing was was a bourgeoisie misdirection that successfully derailed discourse on abolishing exploitation in favor of a mathematically "fair" redistribution policy so that liberals can endlessly quibble over the details of apportionment instead of seizing control of production. Instead we got decades years of people trying to "prove" nonsense. Political power does not come from being logically consistent or mathematically correct.
No.484927
>>484913No it isn't, you need to know what to do the day after the revolution otherwise all your strugle will be for nothing. A revolution that fails to achive is worse then a fialed revolution. THe Day after the revolution is more important then the revolution itself. Like all wars, when it comes to the class war, the peace is more important then the war itself, when a war ends the victor creates new institutions, if those new institutions fail then the peace is lost and you end up Like America is Saigon of Kabul.
No.484928
>>484913You need a few theorists on Marxist economics so you know what the fuck our concrete plans for after the mode change are. Why do you act like every author has to have the same focus?
No.484929
>>484924It's an absolutely retarded claim that leftcoms make. Leftcoms believe that the LTV doesn't exist, or only exists in the money form under capitalism. They seethe about anyone taking the LTV seriously.
No.484930
>>484912>I've seen>I've heard>Clear up for meCan you think for yourself, you retard? Or do you need your shit spoonfed to you? Wow, a person criticized another person! Now we must abandon him. Surely, nobody ever criticized Marx, right? Oh, someone did? Alright, we must abandon his ideas too!
No.484931
>>484926>muh pricesThe fact of the matter is that labor is not infinite and needs to be rationally allocated in a certain way to achieve certain goals. Instead of letting market anarchy do it, you do it via more democratic means of planning. That's all there is to it.
>Political power does not come from being logically consistent or mathematically correct.Nobody claimed so.
No.484932
I have to ask, what are the best books about planned economies and how they differ from market ones i would like to know more to dispel some spooks in my head.
No.484933
>>484932Well, the main Cockshott book is a good start. Towards A New Socialism.
No.484934
>>484933is there any other to look out for ?
No.484935
>>484934Wolff has a good book comparing different economies.
No.484937
>>484936No I am the real cockshott
No.484938
>>484925>Sofar nobody was able to poke a hole in their mathematical frameworkpaul had fallen victim to the AI meme when writing TANS. his harmony method is just a shitty interior point method. there are better algorithms. I have informed him of this and he's quite grateful for such critique
>TANS actually has a rather clever scheme for remunerationI might have to re-read TANS, but one open question is whether to use social labour or straight labour time. piece rates vs hourly wages
>>484932>books about planned economieshere's some tips I got from paul:
https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691003931/the-socialist-systemhttps://www.amazon.com/Mathematical-planning-structural-decisions-Contributions/dp/0444107347https://1lib.sk/book/2481030/a891e5https://1lib.sk/book/2191598/3affcd No.484939
>>484930Stay mad. I am sorry I'm not completely sold on Dickblast yet. I listed some accusations against him and asked if any of you could clear up the commotion. Is that a crime in your book, retard?
No.484940
>>484938Got the pdfs for those?
No.484941
>>484939why not just read him and make up your own minds instead of secondary sources?
No.484942
>>484941I have read TANS and are in the midst of reading "How the World works", but I hoped to get some insight by "secondary sources"
No.484943
>>484942Tell us when you finish HtWW and we'll give you more sources lad or lass
No.484944
>>484925>TANS actually has a rather clever scheme for remunerationDisagree. It's very rudimentary.
>>484926Sorry if this offends you, but you really sound like you got what you think from twitter memery. I don't believe you have read TANS. That book isn't about the transformation problem and the transformation problem is irrelevant for planning in socialism.
>>484934There will be soon a new book by Cockshott.
>>484938Kornai is an anti-communist.
No.484945
>>484944>Kornai is an anti-communist.yes, but before that he was a communist.
No.484946
Found some good blog posts about socialist cybernetics:
https://www.haerdin.se/tag/cybernetics.html No.484948
https://cdn.mises.org/qjae7_1_6.pdfWorst criticism of cockshott ever. The guy didn't even refute any of Paul's work, he just claimed that "its actually capitalism still."
No.484949
>>484948>expecting any critisism from mises cucks against anything ever.if you go search on that site you will probably find apologia in the defence of slavery.
No.484951
>>484948Cock wrote a response to this, but I don't have it.
No.484952
>>484940I have two of them at least. you could try libgen, sci-hub or kademlia (eMule) for the others
>>484944>Kornai is an anti-communist.so? also what
>>484945 said
>>484948dude austrians are such brainlets that they think means of payment are the same as currency. the only recourse they have at this point is "muh tacit knowledge". nevermind the fact that markets consist of definite quantified trades and are not tacit at all
No.484953
>>484949has their every been a good critique of cyberentic planning from the right?
No.484954
Is there any large community (irc, fbi.gov, whatever) about cybernetic planning? Would love to join the conversation
No.484955
>>484954>irc, fbi.govyeah in guam the fbi does planning
No.484956
>>484953>the right>good critiqueno anon
>>484954email between universities
No.484958
>>484953since when has the right had a good critique of literally anything
No.484959
>>484957damn, beat me to it. watching
No.484960
>>484957how the fuck does (presumably) South Korea have such high shipbuilding capacity? how do the norks compare?
No.484961
>>484960park chung hee was obssed with building shipyards and shipbuilding chaebols
No.484962
>>484961obssesed not obssed
No.484964
How the hell does the USAF have less Bombers then the RAF in the 60's when the military budget is so fucking bloated here? Does it just go to carriers?
No.484965
>>484964might have something to do with the US operating a for-profit war industry
No.484966
>>484964they have less long range bombers because there's no reason to have them when you can just bomb from multipurpose jets from air bases in qatar, etc.
This isn't a cold war context where you'd have to send tuboprop b52's from colorado to the USSR or something. Plus when america had that many long range bombers it was when nukes would have been primarily deployed by b52 and not long range ICBM. In short, there's no reason for it
No.484967
>>484964Like
>>484965 said for profit arms industry, but also they wanted a multitool swiss-army-knife fighter jet with the f35, and that was doomed to go massively over budget regardless of procurement economics.
>>484966The Russians are still experimenting with the tu95 (originally build in the 1950s) they are mounting all sorts of new radar system and rocket launch systems on that thing. Maybe they intent to repurpose ancient bombers as a launchpad in the sky.
No.484968
>>484967the US making more conventional (non nuclear) missiles like tomahawks and shit would be a way cheaper option. If they started stockpiling it now they might have enough by the time the war happens plus no chance of pilots being shot down
No.484969
>>484968the US already has over 7,000 tomahawks, why would they want even more?
No.484971
>>484969according to dickblast its not enough and they'd need 4 time more for a war with China
No.484972
what does /cybersoc/ think about Aurora Apolito? I see the market "socialists" at c4ss.org are angry at her, so that's a plus
I plan on listening to this interview with her later today, curiously hosted by c4ss:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcriZuhGTEU No.484973
>>484972I only listened to the beginning and they are already accepting "the calculation problem" as "a powerful argument against socialist central planning" they even say that bourgeois economists invented this shit.
The reality is that the calculation problem has been refuted and the bourgeois economists that came up with this even have admitted to this defeat.
These people have not done any research if they make such elementary mistakes, I would not listen to this it's not worth your time.
I have added a different talk, that might interest you.
No.484975
>>484972 (me)
>>484973I listened through it, made some notes:
12min market apologism, muh ECP
18min aurora gets to talk
24min aurora criticizes market socialists for cucking to finance capital
32min aurora points out that primitivism is genocidal since it can't support the world population, and that the notion of returning to pre-industrial society is reactionary
34min muh gorillions from the other guy, and the ECP again
49min aurora makes a comparison that in QM physicists has had to apply new mathematical tools
51min aurora compares market socialism to a greek chimera. socialist from the waist up, capitalist from the waist down. also compares to geocentrists adding epicycles on top of epicycles
No.484976
Under a cybersoc system how would workers in hr, pr, marketing, advertising, retial, be retrained to do SNLT?
No.484977
>>484976what makes you think these jobs wouldn't exist? HR will certainly be necessary, and the public stores in TANS need retail workers
either way it's hard to say these things a priori. after all, some form of marketing is necessary even in communism, for letting people know when new goods are available
No.484979
>>484978thanks for the upload anon. I'm ordering books and I'll likely still order this one because dead tree books are easier to read for me. but useful to have a digital copy
No.484980
>>519317
The book has nothing to do with cybernetics and Cockshott is neither a co-author of it nor referenced by it in any way.
You can post about trans here: >>>/siberia/152686
No.484981
>>519317going to agree with
>>484980 here. no one in here cares about the transes. take this 2nd/3rd wave feminist slapfight elsewhere
No.484982
Are there any specific parts of "The Best Uses of Economic Resources" by Kantorovich that are good to read first? Also, what are the main ideas presented and how do you find them useful?
No.484983
>>484982I've only read parts of that book, those referenced by some papers on linear programming I found a while back. it's a thicc one so I wouldn't blame you for wanting good excerpts
No.484987
Anyone have this paper by Cottrell?
https://philpapers.org/rec/CHAACW No.484989
>>484988ancom cyberneticist.
No.484990
>>525674
This is the cybersoc thread. Take your shit boomer-tier anglo idpol analysis to the trash.
No.484991
>>484987google scholar turns up this PostScript version of it:
http://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/zombies.psconversion to pdf attached
No.484992
who's spoilering all the images that have to do with Paul on leftybooru? Seems like all my oc is gone.
https://lefty.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=Paul_cockshott No.484995
Is their any good book about how innovation and R&D and high skilled, low labor manufacturing would operate under cybersoc, as these were the industries that the USA beat the USSR at?
No.484996
Are there any updates on Cockshott's upcoming book? Anybody asked him about it?
No.484997
Interesting critique of the LVT
https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2021/09/11/how-the-labor-theory-of-value-emerges-from-egalitarianism/I specifically mention it because the author makes a point of mocking cockshott and cotrells formulations. His objection to C&C's explanations sound fair enough but I'll admit I dont really understand his proposal
Without trying to smear the author, it sounds like they argue that there is no big-v 'Value' in the marxist sense. Rather, similar kinds of work are compensated at similar rates because of peoples in built egalitarianism. It sounds silly to me but I don't understand the maths enough to make a confident assessment either way
any thoughts on this?
No.484998
>>484997<In the 1860s, Karl Marx declared that all value stemmed from laborMarx didn't invent the labor theory of value, almost all economists at the time agreed with this, bourgeois economists abandoned the labor theory of value when it became clear to them what the political consequences are.
<Nor did Marx think about what his theory implied about human nature.I usually nope out at the muh human nature trope, but i soldiered on reading
>If the labor theory of value were true, one would expect a striking correlation between prices and labor time.Failed at understanding the basics, prices are not the same as value, prices fluctuate around value sometimes above and sometimes below. Market forces as in supply and demand are not actually accurate enough to find the exact equilibrium price.
<Take art as an example. A painting that took a month to create might sell for $1000. Another month-long painting might sell for $1 million.The reason for that is that art has inflated prices because it's used for money laundering. We could probably figure out how that works and what determines the suitability for money laundering of an art piece, but it's irrelevant for the socialist project so nobody bothers. If you want to have pretty pictures to decorate a wall you can get a photo-quality printout and a frame for a few bucks, which behaves like regular commodities in capitalism.
<Cockshott’s thinking works as follows. When we compare things quantitatively, they must have the same dimension. This is a measurement truism. Cockshott’s D-twist is to claim that this truism makes it invalid to compare the prices (or labor times) of different commodities. The reason, he argues, is that all prices come with a different dimension. The price of a pencil has dimensions of $/pencil. And the price of a shirt has dimensions of $/shirt. Faced with these different dimensions, we are not allowed to test the labor theory of value at the commodity level. Dimensions forbid it.Dimensional analysis is just Maths, he's complaining that numbers are communist or something.
To test the LTV at the commodity level, not just the sector level you need capitalist enterprises to hand over the information about how much labor time goes into each product.
<It’s this relative value that gives prices meaning. But according to Cockshott, such a comparison is unsound. By the dictates of dimensional analysis, humans must only compare the prices of identical commodities.here he complains that if you're hungry and want to buy an apple and only compare prices of apple you're doing it wrong. You should behave like homo economicus in bourgeois economic textbooks and forgo the apple because today pencils are on sale and a better deal than apples. This is insane, that's enough self torture I'm not reading another line.
No.484999
>>484997Everything about his equalitarian huersitic s non sense. For starters he says people won't accept starvation wages because they think it is unfair. No, they won't accept starvation wages because if wages are so low as to not even allow for basic survival, there is no reason to work. He also says that this explains why no one would pay very high wages but this is stupidly obvious, people want to pay less for shit, it has nothing to do with fairness. He then goes on to use these bounds as a way to explain why commodity prices can correlate without supporting the LTV. The problem is he's wrong on why these bounds are the way they are, so the theory can't explain why the LTV us wrong. Even if he was right about his equalitarian heuristic it's really a matter of Occam's razor, if commodity prices corelate with labor time, then differences in prices are most likely explained by labor time. He tries to weasel out if this by saying, "That's like saying that height is explained by how tall a skeleton is" but that's a retarded analogy because in one your explaining differences in height by measuring differences in height, but labor isn't like that. We're not comparing the difference of prices by measuring different prices, where looking at prices and the time it takes to make something.
No.485000
https://iteroni.com/watch?v=sioFuw-leAU>Computer Networks in the Soviet Union - Vyacheslav Gerovitch Opinions? Is it a good abstract of what can be considered ciybernetics in the Soviet Union? The bureocracy stricked again?
No.485001
>>484997not feeling confident in this guy's argument when he seems to get Marx' point wrong in the first few paragraphs. predicting the guy will veer into subjectivism
>Take art as an exampleLTV does not apply to art, partly because art is not interchangeable. whereas things like steel and t-shirts are (assuming same quality). not that this necessarily makes the author's point wrong
>We know this because of a widely-studied scenario called ‘ultimatum game’.this isn't how capital works or "thinks". part of Marx' argument is that capital is an emergent gestalt, a thing larger than any of its participants. it doesn't care about what is fair, but what maximizes profit
>When Marx wrote Capital his goal was to explain capitalist incomethis is correct, but I think the author misses Marx' point how one-sided the relationship between worker and capitalist is. the capitalist
needs the workers, but the workers don't need the capitalists
>And yet capitalists seem to take only a small minority of the piedoes the author understand the difference between rate of profit and rate of exploitation?
>competitive egalitarianismthis just sounds like repeating one of the fundamental requirements for LTV to apply - that there is competition
>Real-world humans, it seems, judge ‘value’ using many different dimensionshere comes the subjectivism
I think the author is correct that the LTV is not indispensible. in the concept of cybersoc social labour just a useful thing to economize on. technocrats have an energy theory of value, and it leads to a different way of structuring society. one that I think is not as good for workers
>>485000sounds interesting, will have to give a watch
No.485002
>>485000not great, but not terrible either.
It sounds like he's implying that the soviet union could have build the internet in the 1960s if only the coordination between different bureaucracies had been better, that's ignoring the cost of doing it with 60s tech
>>485001>I think the author is correct that the LTV is not indispensible.The author is incorrect and the LTV should be the basis of socialist planning
>>485001>the technocrats have an energy theory of value, and it leads to a different way of structuring society. one that I think is not as good for workersthe technocrats ?
LTV is based on time, not energy
No.485003
>>485002He means the technocracy movement of the 1950s US who wanted energy accounting.
Cockshott once said: Using windmills would be energy efficient but take up a lot of labor time. This was his argument against energy accounting. It is better to incentivize human lifetime being saved than just energy being saved.
No.485004
>>485002>The author is incorrect and the LTV should be the basis of socialist planningin mixed integer programming, social labour is just one of many constraints. the only question that remains is what to optimize on (the vector c in the literature). and you can let c be any real vector. the renumeration problem ties into this too
>LTV is based on time, not energyI know. but if you read almost anything written by serious technocrats then ETV shows up
>>485003>Using windmills would be energy efficient but take up a lot of labor time. This was his argument against energy accountingI've used the argument of human hamster wheels being rational with ETV, which got the local technocrats to listen to my critiques a lot more
No.485005
>>484997Can anyone find the source for figure 3? He references capital as power but it doesn't look like that's anywhere in the book. I think he's just trying to demonstrate the ideas from capital as power with a visual but it's incredibly misleading because it makes it looks like labor values are uncorrelated to market prices but he himself never makes this claim.
No.485006
>>484997<Muh art muh wine muh YeezysAll goods for which FUCKING DAVID RICARDO said LTV does not apply.
Time and again the SAME tired objection.
No.485007
>>485003>He means the technocracy movement of the 1950s US who wanted energy accounting.>Cockshott once said: Using windmills would be energy efficient but take up a lot of labor time. This was his argument against energy accounting. It is better to incentivize human lifetime being saved than just energy being saved.Ok i get it now, but why is he confusing the technocracy movement with cybernetics ? they're not the same
>>485004>social labour is just one of many constraintsfor planning yes, but not for pricing
>I know. but if you read almost anything written by serious technocrats then ETV shows upYes but what does that have to do with the LTV ?
I get it there are some similarities between cybernetic socialism and technocracy, but it's not the same.
No.485008
>>485007>for planning yes, but not for pricingwhich is why I mentioned the renumeration problem
>Yes but what does that have to do with the LTV ?because in socialist planning you optimize on social labour, whereas in technocratic planning you optimize on energy. these are two different values for c which given the same set of constraints will have different optimal solutions, both of which are in the feasible set given by the constraints
No.485010
>>485009oh boy. what are haz' actual positions?
No.485011
>>485010>"ur a soyboy beta cuck"I hope he makes an absolute fool of himself and of Cockshott
No.485012
>>485011part of me wants to email paul and tell him how useless debating haz would be
the other part is too morbidly curious to do that
No.485013
>>485012Email Cockshott, don't make him waste his time.
No.485014
>>485009the battle of the centuary
No.485015
New cockshott video out.
No.485018
How does Althusser play into Mr. Cockshott's views?
No.485019
>>485018Cockshott seems to have a love-hate relationship with Althusser
No.485020
NEW VIDEOAgainst Machism
https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=KomcVwC40h4 49:38
>Mach was the most significant opponent of materialism in the late 19th century. This examines why his arguments were wrong even then, and how Einstein's papers in 1905 defeated Mach's position on the non-existence of atoms. No.485022
>>485020damn, beat me to it. 1½ minutes in and paul is already making it clear that he's going to lay a beatdown on mach
No.485023
>>485020Imo every leftist should read Lenin's Materialism and empirio-criticism at some point
No.485024
>>485023Didn't Lenin critique Mach for completely different reasons then Cockshott? How is it related?
No.485027
NEW PAPER>Artificial Intelligence inspired methods for the allocation of common goods and servicesSpyridon Samothrakis has released an updated version of his 2020 paper about open-loop planning
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0257399direct link:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0257399&type=printableI'd upload the pdf but I can't because of cloudflare
No.485029
>>485028this reads like schizo ramblings and just makes it more clear that Marx was a mathlet
No.485031
>>485030I could say the same to you anon
No.485032
>>485031https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonstandard_analysis>Much of the earliest development of the infinitesimal calculus by Newton and Leibniz was formulated using expressions such as infinitesimal number and vanishing quantity. As noted in the article on hyperreal numbers, these formulations were widely criticized by George Berkeley and others. The challenge of developing a consistent and satisfactory theory of analysis using infinitesimals was first met by Abraham Robinson.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonstandard_calculus>This approach formalized by Weierstrass came to be known as the standard calculus. After many years of the infinitesimal approach to calculus having fallen into disuse other than as an introductory pedagogical tool, use of infinitesimal quantities was finally given a rigorous foundation by Abraham Robinson in the 1960s. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/cw/pdf/lenin-cw-vol-14.pdf>We are faced, says Poincaré, with the “ruins” of the old principles of physics, “a general debacle of principles”. It is true, he remarks, that all the mentioned departures from principles refer to infinitesimal magnitudes; it is possible that we are still ignorant of other infinitesimals counteracting the undermining of the old principles. Moreover, radium is very rare. But at any rate we have reached a “period of doubt”. We have already seen what epistemological deductions the author draws from this “period of doubt”: “it is not nature which imposes on [or dictates to] us the concepts of space and time, but we who impose them on nature”; “whatever is not thought, is pure nothing”. These deductions are idealist deductions. The break-down of the most fundamental principles shows (such is Poincaré’s trend of thought) that these principles are not copies, photographs of nature, not images of something external in relation to man’s consciousness, but products of his consciousness. Poincaré does not develop these deductions consistently, nor is he essentially interested in the philosophical aspect of the question. It is dealt with in detail by the French writer on philosophical problems, Abel Rey, in his book The Physical Theory of the Modern Physicists (La théorie de la physique chez les physiciens contemporains, Paris, F. Alcan, 1907). True, the author himself is a positivist, i.e., a muddlehead and a semi-Machist, https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/theses/index.htm>The main defect of all hitherto-existing materialism — that of Feuerbach included — is that the Object [der Gegenstand], actuality, sensuousness, are conceived only in the form of the object [Objekts], or of contemplation [Anschauung], but not as human sensuous activity, practice [Praxis], not subjectively. Hence it happened that the active side, in opposition to materialism, was developed by idealism — but only abstractly, since, of course, idealism does not know real, sensuous activity as such. Feuerbach wants sensuous objects [Objekte], differentiated from thought-objects, but he does not conceive human activity itself as objective [gegenständliche] activity. In The Essence of Christianity [Das Wesen des Christenthums], he therefore regards the theoretical attitude as the only genuinely human attitude, while practice [Praxis] is conceived and defined only in its dirty-Jewish form of appearance [Erscheinungsform][1]. Hence he does not grasp the significance of ‘revolutionary’, of ‘practical-critical’, activity.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1883/don/appendix1.htm>Nature operates with these differentials, the molecules, in exactly the same way and according to the same laws as mathematics does with its abstract differentials. Thus, for instance, the differential of x3==3x2dx, where 3xdx2 and dx3 are neglected. If we put this in geometrical form, we have a cube with sides of length x, the length being increased by the infinitely small amount dx. Let us suppose that this cube consists of a sublimated element, say sulphur; and that three of the surfaces around one corner are protected, the other three being free. Let us now expose this sulphur cube to an atmosphere of sulphur vapour and lower the temperature sufficiently; sulphur will be deposited on the three free sides of the cube. We remain quite within the ordinary mode of procedure of physics and chemistry in supposing, in order to picture the process in its pure form, that in the first place a layer of thickness of a single molecule is deposited on each of these three sides. The length x of the sides of the cubes will have increased by the diameter of a molecule dx. The content of the cube x3 has increased by the difference between x3 and x3+3x2dx+3xdx2+dx3, where dx3, a single molecule and 3xdx2, three rows of length x+dx, consisting merely of lineally arranged molecules, can be neglected with the same justification as in mathematics. The result is the same, the increase in mass of the cube is 3x2dx. No.485033
>>485032it's OK to admit that you don't understand calculus anon. if Marx had had a better grasp of it he would have been able to express his ideas much more succinctly using for example differential equations, from which things like business cycles are obvious from eigenvalue analysis
No.485035
>>484498Capitalist software is fucking bullshit, absolute garbage, its architecture, implementation, and use-cases, are themselves infested with and defined by capitalism itself. The only rational way of going about working on software as a species is in a global monorepo where every single line is open source, obviously, and every single line is scrutinized to the utmost before it reaches the codebases of the deep branches of functionality. Where every library is made in an architecturally sound way in a way that can be used in arbitrarily many ways for many purposes, or else it is not written. Where experimentation can be done and anything can be stolen from anywhere, without the need to copy and paste but by directly referring to existing code in the monorepo. Where every build is deterministic, every programmer has ample resources to experiment and learn. And this should extend to all human knowledge. I'm so mad.
No.485036
>>485029>>485033These posters are correct. If anybody still feels a need to discuss how Marx and Engels struggled with math, make another thread for that.
No.485037
>>485036Marx was right. Read Leibniz.
No.485039
>>485038is this project cyberson but chinese
No.485040
>>485039I'm only halfway through reading it but they say they aim to have elements of markets parallel to it. so maybe more dengist cybernetics maybe? gotta go, I can post more thorough comments later
No.485041
>>485040this is blessed and cursed at the same time
I like it :^)
No.485042
>>485041blursed as the kids say
No.485043
>>485020Noob question: Why does it matter if there's a physical world? The connection between politics and this philosophical/scientific question is completely incomprehensible to me. I understand that materialism refers to a thesis about the development of human history but it's obscure to me how it relies on the other thesis by that name being true. Are they somehow the same thesis? It seems perfectly possible to me to be an idealist and a materialist (in the Marxist sense) to me.
No.485044
>>485043Shit happens and people think and do certain things primarily as a result of the material conditions, as opposed to shit happens and material conditions exist primarily as a result of people thinking certain things.
>Why does it matterBecause ideas don't cause material conditions, they can only seek to express them. The social struggle is not a matter of interpreting the world, but changing it.
No.485045
>>485043>Why does it matter if there's a physical world?if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? if a child dies because their parents can't afford food but FOX news doesn't report it, does anyone mourn it?
No.485046
>>485043It's a bit hard to answer this question in a short way but it actually has tons to do with it. Marxists say labor is the main source of value. Labor is alwaya a material act, an interaction with the material world. Marginalists for example will believe a stock rising will also increase its value despite everything happening in the digital sphere, sometimes without humans even micro-trading. You can put more examples like this.
Materialism is the contrast to idealism.
Idealism is the thought that ideas are the most central part of human experience, that ideals guide us, that ideas move history. Citing a negative example, thinking thst group XYZ is criminal because of their culture is idealist.
Materialism is the thought that our material surroundings shape our ideas. To say: The human consciousness does not form his environment - rather the environment forms the human consciousness.
A materialist would say group XYZ is more criminal because poverty pushes people to crime. He explains politics not with supposed inherent qualities of people, but looks at what made them that way.
On a more abstract level, a Marxist can look at the bare bones level of economics (exerting energy, i.e. labor power), not the idealized layer of money+finance on top of it, which is ultimately just a representation, not reality per se. This philosophy is the basis of Marxist economic analysis.
Imagine a tree next to a farm. An idealist might say: The tree belongs to that farmer. The materialist might say: The tree stands next to a farm. There is nothing physical that can show it belongs to the farmer. We might assume it, but it implies private property. In reality they are just two objects standing next to each other. Why do we say it belongs to the farmer? What does it mean if something belongs to someone? How can you own something? What implications does ownership have?
No.485047
>>485043Materialism is the contrast to idealism.
Idealism is the thought that ideas are the most central part of human experience, that ideals guide us, that ideas move history. Citing a negative example, thinking thst group XYZ is criminal because of their culture is idealist.
Materialism is the thought that our material surroundings shape our ideas. To say: The human consciousness does not form his environment - rather the environment forms the human consciousness.
A materialist would say group XYZ is more criminal because poverty pushes people to crime. He explains politics not with supposed inherent qualities of people, but looks at what made them that way.
On a more abstract level, a Marxist can look at the bare bones level of economics (exerting energy, i.e. labor power), not the idealized layer of money+finance on top of it, which is ultimately just a representation, not reality per se. This philosophy is the basis of Marxist economic analysis.
Imagine a tree next to a farm. An idealist might say: The tree belongs to that farmer. The materialist might say: The tree stands next to a farm. There is nothing physical that can show it belongs to the farmer. We might assume it, but it implies private property. In reality they are just two objects standing next to each other. Why do we say it belongs to the farmer? What does it mean if something belongs to someone? How can you own something? What implications does ownership have?
You can guess how dialectical materialism leads to a criticism of capitalism.
The dialectical part pertains to Hegel, a bit more complicated, IDK if you are interested.
No.485048
guys one of our resident drawfriends delivered a /cybersoc/ catboy the other day. check it out! >>>/roulette/974
No.485049
bump
also I'm reading people's republic of walmart. I'll probably read red plenty after that. what is the rest of /cybersoc/ reading?
No.485051
>>485050I notice some typos on that list. emailing paul about them
No.485052
Has Cockshott made any working real life models yet?
No.485053
>>485052you mean putting these things into practice? no
me and some other guys have been discussing how to get a pilot project off the ground
No.485054
>>485053Interesting? What are you going to do?
No.485055
>>485054good question. one idea is to get a bunch of cooperatives to use in-kind calculation between each other. something where we can achieve some level of autarky. problem is that this has to be quite a few firms to make sense
farmers and forestry people might be one place to start. parts of the healthcare system too I think
No.485057
>>485056Well if you're that excited about it, its a good sign.
No.485058
>>485056anon the point is that you don't use markets between workplaces. which is very different from the typical "muh coops" that market "socialists" are usually on about
if you have a better idea then present it
No.485059
>>485056still waiting for this anon to actually deliver a coherent response
No.485061
>>485060>I find it hard to believe that a science unable to predict its own economic crises is really so rigorous and advancedI mean yeah. bourgeois political economy exists to prop up the current state of affairs, not to actually understand, critique and surpass it
some neoclassical/Keynesian thought has shades of cybernetics, like how the economy can be steered with taxes. but they're still hampered by the need to defend porky
>Also, how many of you guys in here are non-STEM?I'm a huge STEM lord. not sure about the others
also Victor Magariño is a treasure
No.485062
>>485060alot of those guys and the ones on places like /r/neoliberal are really posturing pseuds who pretend they understand Marx or Economics when they don't.
No.485063
y'know i've been wondering about something, in an capitalist market economy, where the account of price is supply and demand, if i where to want something to be free, and where to reduce demand and increase production to raise production untill supply is high enough, what would happen ?.
No.485064
>>485062>/r/neoliberalI had to go and have another look at that place and found this:
https://i.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/qr5ruf/the_world_is_fed_up_with_chinas_belligerence/>Now China just picks fights out of arrogance and bullying>[Xi's] policy shift doesn’t seem calculated in the way I envision world leaders calculating>The future was China's for the taking, but I guess Xi wanted to seize the whole world himself>When China lashed out with trade attacks over Australia said we should investigate COVID origins it became very clear that appeasement was going to become expensiveit's afraid
>>485063this question fits better in a separate thread I think. but I'll bite
>if i where to want something to be freeevery single thing useful to humans requires labour anon. nothing is free
>what would happen ?you'd go out of business
No.485065
>>485064when i mean free i mean a product, let's say for the conversation it's toilet paper.
let's also say i'm bezos rich so money is not a problem
so, it is possible, through messing with supply and demand to make TP free ?.
No.485066
>>485065I'm confused why you would want to continue making anything that was in such abundance as to be literally worthless.
No.485067
>>485066worthless to make money, but it's function still stands, as for the reason, while walking home i tought about a situation where the supply/demand of a market would result in the need to change to a planned economy just because someone cheated it enough to subsitise social programs.
No.485068
>>485065people like Bezos aren't communists, for obvious reasons. I don't even understand what you want said with this. you can buy and give TP to people if you want. but the value of TP will always be non-zero, it will always take some amount of labour to make it
in a socialist economy we could decide to make machines that are even better at making TP than what we have now, lowering the value of TP to far below where it would be profitable. or better yet
install bidets in every home so TP becomes unnecessary No.485069
>>485067I feel like by the time you made that much toilet paper it would be basically useless just because there wouldn't be a good place to store it all
No.485070
>>485069how about you store it
up your butt! No.485071
Can Cockshott not simulate an economy like a video game would?
No.485073
>>485071wdym? we could use model economies and apply planning to them. that's a thing Starcraft bots do
No.485074
>>484948yeah, I read this years ago and Brewster comes across as incredibly lazy in his response. Not a surprise given that this was the early 90s and the fukuyamaist end of history. So there was zero urgency to his critique
No.485075
>>485073Yes but more in-depth and related to the real world. Seems like it would be number one priority.
No.485076
>>485075for sure. but a huge problem is getting a hold of the actual data. and also people willing to give this stuff a try
No.485077
>>484707Idk maybe. Can any anon in here try something like that and upload it to youtube?
No.485078
>>484707yes but it would have to use a custom server plugin
No.485079
>>485073starcraft economy is very simple compared to real life economies. There are only 3 inputs and no intermediate goods.
No.485080
>>485079of course. there's oodles of other games. Workers & Resources comes to mind
Starcraft is interesting because it is adversarial. you have to do continuous planning. planning investments (building construction) requires integer variables. this makes optimal Starcraft planning NP
No.485081
>>484948<Assume, as do C&C, an economy which generates 10⁶ distinguishable goods and services. A Leontief input/output matrix for such an economy would then need solutions for 10⁶ x 10⁶ x 10⁶ = 10¹⁸ equations to eliminate the variables assuming everything to be an input for everything else.>letting one's mathlet-ness be on full display like thisembarassing tbh. for those who don't notice, it's 10⁶ equations, not 10¹⁸, the system is actually sparse, and we don't need to form an explicit inverse to find a solution. plus it is very parallelizeable
No.485084
>>485082is this just boomerism or is paul secretly a meme slinging teen at heart
No.485085
>>485084my pet theory is that paul secretly posts in here
No.485086
Even if we do in fact have the physical technology to implement planning as described here, we don't have the social technology, people don't trust each other enough for direct democracy.
No.485087
>>485086i call bullshit on this
people trust each other just fine, so much so that the bourgoisie and their lackies actively expend effort sowing distrust amongst people
take that away for even a moment and you see solidarity
No.485089
>>485087>people trust each other just fineThe people immediately around them sure, but in a huge polarized country there's always some outgroup that's to be feared and resented
No.485090
>>485088is that the fucking walmart logo?
No.485091
>>485090Yes, my man is People's Republic of Walmart pilled
No.485092
>>485089who do you think picks and chooses each outgroup?
and when those who decide lose their grip on power, who do you think ends up more often than not becoming the outgroup?
No.485093
Warning:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cockshott#Political_views>Cockshott advocates for a system of a moneyless economy based on computerized central planning and direct democracy called neosocialism*.[2**]* Leads to this article on the fascist ideology of "neosocialism" from the 1930s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neosocialism** Leads to the following source with no such usage of "neosocialism":
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/index.html No.485094
>>485093I recommend to just replace "neosocialism" with "cybernetic communism", with or without hyperlink, sourcing his recent usage of 'cybernetic communism' in the last decade(s) rather than "cybernetic socialism" (in the 90s).
No.485095
>>485093there's a copyright notice on the talk page. do we have a photo of paul with known copyright status?
No.485096
>>485093the only time I remember them naming their ideology was something like "post-Soviet socialism"
No.485097
>>485093The edit was made by a Wikipedia user Comradeka, who uses imageboard lingo and they/them pronouns on the personal user page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Cockshott&diff=prev&oldid=1046646704Definitely a troll edit. That user also edits other articles with left-wing relevance, but does not appear particularly trollish in that. Probably has an axe to grind because of Cockshott's gender views.
No.485098
>>485093It goes deeper there is a subsection on "neosocialism" for the wiki page on TANS
No.485099
>>485098The change was recently done by SnowFire, who appears neither a wingnut nor troll. In the revision history, the user comments: "move passage from Neosocialism here". The user who added Cockshott to the Neosocialism article was WiCoraLee. That was the only contribution WiCoraLee ever made.
No.485100
>>485093its sad, but i have not the willpower to fight the corrupt mountain of administrative shit that is wikipedia
No.485101
>>485099>That was the only contribution WiCoraLee ever madeGlowie confirmed
No.485102
Thanks whoever made the edit.
No.485107
>>485106yeah I listened to it in the car
I think paul should have made clear that planning starts with the base, with the most basic goods. services is something you can bring in later. it's also almost impossible to answer a lot of those questions without actually having cybersocialism in place. he does address some presuppositions however, like a lot of what is now done by the petty bourgeoisie should become effectively salaried work
No.485108
>>485106on the question of people lying to the system, this is something I expect would quickly be made illegal. there are also statistical methods to detect it, possibly even if there's only a single firm in a field, like the rocket example. but there I expect there's heavy involvement from the democratic body. in any heavy capital investment you want oversight
No.485109
seems this thread has reached the bump limit. should I start a new one? if so I'll steal the OP from this one, with minor changes
No.485110
>>485107Distinguishing between "services" and "le base tangible commodities" is completely irrational and arbitrary.
Unique IPs: 169