>In speaking of the capitalists who strive only for profit, only to get rich, I do not want to say that these are the most worthless people capable of doing nothing else. Many of them undoubtedly possess great organizing talent, which I would not dream of denying. The Chinese people learn a lot from the capitalists.
>>574213Have a Ford quote for your troubles
“If there is any one secret of success, it lies in the ability to get the other person's point of view and see things from that person's angle as well as from your own.”
>>574218>selectively cut out a quoteIt's called détournement and it is recognized as actually existing praxis and is based on a theoretic line spanning Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao to Debord.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9tournement<People who arent debate bros quotemining Reading theory is quote-mining. Hahaha.
Get a grip, ultra.
>>574213OP cut off the rest of the quote where Stalin ends his paraphrasing of the arguments made by H.G Wells and says "But…" (and he also referenced Ford negatively unlike this reply
>>574214)
> Many of them undoubtedly possess great organising talent, which I do not dream of denying. We Soviet people learn a great deal from the capitalists. And Morgan, whom you characterise so unfavourably, was undoubtedly a good, capable organiser. But if you mean people who are prepared to reconstruct the world, of course, you will not be able to find them in the ranks of those who faithfully serve the cause of profit. We and they stand at opposite poles. You mentioned Ford. Of course, he is a capable organiser of production. But don't you know his attitude to the working class?>Don't you know how many workers he throws on the street? The capitalist is riveted to profit; and no power on earth can tear him away from it. Capitalism will be abolished, not by "organisers" of production not by the technical intelligentsia, but by the working class, because the aforementioned strata do not play an independent role. The engineer, the organiser of production does not work as he would like to, but as he is ordered, in such a way as to serve the interests of his employers. There are exceptions of course; there are people in this stratum who have awakened from the intoxication of capitalism. The technical intelligentsia can, under certain conditions, perform miracles and greatly benefit mankind. But it can also cause great harm. We Soviet people have not a little experience of the technical intelligentsia. >After the October Revolution, a certain section of the technical intelligentsia refused to take part in the work of constructing the new society; they opposed this work of construction and sabotaged it.>We did all we possibly could to bring the technical intelligentsia into this work of construction; we tried this way and that. Not a little time passed before our technical intelligentsia agreed actively to assist the new system. Today the best section of this technical intelligentsia are in the front rank of the builders of socialist society. Having this experience we are far from underestimating the good and the bad sides of the technical intelligentsia and we know that on the one hand it can do harm, and on the other hand, it can perform "miracles." Of course, things would be different if it were possible, at one stroke, spiritually to tear the technical intelligentsia away from the capitalist world. But that is utopia. …
>…the assistance of the technical intelligentsia must be accepted; and the latter in turn, must be assisted. But it must not be thought that the technical intelligentsia can play an independent historical role. The transformation of the world is a great, complicated and painful process. For this task a great class is required. Big ships go on long voyages. >>574221Detournement is when you take something and edit it to convey its opposing meaning.
So you detournementing Stalin and Lenin quotes to attribute them to Deng only shows us your true politics.
>>574224Opposite meaning? Lmao you can't reduce the process of detournement to saying "it's just the opposite bro!"
also it shows you lack dialectical thinking – by stating you can take the opposite of something you admit to a binary of having property A or not having property A which eliminates the tension between their contradiction
also my politics are Marxist-Leninist, of whom Deng was a capable representative. now proceed to call me a troll, a zigger, a multipolarista. those are all water of the camel's back. the slay that broke the buck's back.
>>574227Except not, because Lenin and Stalin and all the others did not advocate for Dengist policies, if you look beyond a surface level.
Allowing the small bourgoiesie to keep operating for the time being, then expropriating them 10 years later, is different from dismantling the planned economy and allowing a billionaire class to grow and simultaniously gain power inside the state.
"Learn the tricks from the capitalists while we need to" is fundamentally different from "White or black cat as long as it catches mice" because the first is primarily concerned still with the abolishment of class society and capitalist production, keeping check in place constantly, rather than vulgar factory building.
>>574210>learning from your enemies is objectively smart thoonly if they know anything worth learning
I'd rather socialists didn't learn about auguring the markets, MBTI, or other such superstitions.
>>574240No no Mao's works are already part of ML cannon
If your way would fix the issue the issue would already be fixed
>>574238Less words more abolishing the power the the bourgoiesie inside china, dengsnorter.
Xi can ghostwrite books about how he pretty promises to reverse in 2050 all the destruction he leveled against the remaining socialist elements in china, but history is full of "communists" who lied big lies so they could help their capitalist buddies win. He is just a modern SPD Freikorps loving traitor like the rest of them.
>>574240>that peak is revisionismis it?
who is being revised?
>>574246Name some non Maoist China Maoists who have succeeded in taking state power and I'll read those
Utterly sincere gib .pdfs plox
>>574248That's not what I asked for
In fact I worry that your singular focus on Mao removing him from the ML cannon might hinder your understanding for praxis for example mass line
>>574250>literal dengist spew<from the mission statementThe second objective is to develop a correct theoretical line in particular. At the moment this line is best defined in terms of the concrete stances we take in response to various ongoing debates in our shared context. In short: pro-Stalin (against historical nihilism, anarchism, etc.), pro-China (for their chosen road of Reform and Opening Up and against “Maoism” and Sinophobia)
>against “Maoism”>thinks the Maoist posted thisBruh, why are so many of you idiots always like this, do you guys not know your own side?
>>574253>against “Maoism”Yes I'm against historical revisionism
In politics Stalin's
Short Course on Socialism was Mao"s bible
If you don't understand basic shit like this how are you supposed to understand Mao
Marx and Engels work lead to Lenin lead to Stalin lead to Mao
A five year old can understand this so why can't you?
>>574251In China:
China:
1) Never privatised major industries such as energy or steel, which are all public owned. Compare this to the collapse of Yugoslavia, USSR, etc., which were all marked by an immediate devouring of major national industries by private entities: true transitions to capitalism.
2) Land remains collectivised, and leased to private persons or business entities for a maximum of 70 years. This, the absence of land inheritance, and the impossibility of generational land monopolisation, makes possible the extremely high home ownership rates in China (rural: roughly 90%; urban: roughly 80%) compared to other countries.
3) The bourgeois class, while necessary for development and allowed to exist, have no political power over the proletariate, and can not use their fortunes to influence policy, shape laws, or purchase the loyalty of politicians via lobbies and campaign contributions. The CPC is comprised almost entirely of working class representatives, extremely few capitalists. In the highest governing body, the National People’s Congress, there are 26 owners of private enterprises among 2600+ members (2018).
4) In Democratic Centralism, directly democratic decision making through elections proceeds from neighbourhood and local councils up to the National Congress, and from there and above are appointed by elected officials, according to merit. This combines the best of both democracy and meritocracy, while the dangers of both are checked by the other.
5) Never experienced the boom-bust cycles typical of capitalist economies in its 40 years of steady development at a rate of roughly 10% per year.
6) Bottom segments of Chinese society experienced 40% growth since 1979; bottom segments of USA during same period: 1%. If the USA is not a good comparison due to its drastic differences in history and position, a much better one is India, another post colonial nation developing during the same period, which actually transitioned to capitalism: exponentially more inequality, nearly no progress or even regress for the poorest segments of society.
7) CPC representatives are installed in every privately owned corporation, and oversee operations of all enterprises in the private sector. CEOs, capitalists, and the super wealthy are answerable to the state, and are not above the law.
8. 1.5 million capitalists and state officials punished for corruption since 2007, 17% of whom imprisoned or executed. Compare this to capitalist countries that always rewards the excesses and crimes of their elites, such as the Wall Street bankers whose excesses caused the 2008 global financial crash.
9) Very real problems created by economic infrastructure building with capitalist methods, such as uneven development, inequality, bad work conditions, corruption, pollution, etc. are clearly and repeatedly addressed publicly, and in no uncertain terms. Correctional policies addressing each of these problems have been implemented, and already have had significant results.
10) Foreign engagement is always mutually beneficial, guided by the millennia old policy of strict non-interference, in support of independent development of regions dominated by imperialism. The New Silk Road, or Belt and Road initiative, seeks to build an international brotherhood of former colonised nations, together in strength against capitalist hegemony and imperial domination.China:
1) Never privatised major industries such as energy or steel, which are all public owned. Compare this to the collapse of Yugoslavia, USSR, etc., which were all marked by an immediate devouring of major national industries by private entities: true transitions to capitalism.
2) Land remains collectivised, and leased to private persons or business entities for a maximum of 70 years. This, the absence of land inheritance, and the impossibility of generational land monopolisation, makes possible the extremely high home ownership rates in China (rural: roughly 90%; urban: roughly 80%) compared to other countries.
3) The bourgeois class, while necessary for development and allowed to exist, have no political power over the proletariate, and can not use their fortunes to influence policy, shape laws, or purchase the loyalty of politicians via lobbies and campaign contributions. The CPC is comprised almost entirely of working class representatives, extremely few capitalists. In the highest governing body, the National People’s Congress, there are 26 owners of private enterprises among 2600+ members (2018).
4) In Democratic Centralism, directly democratic decision making through elections proceeds from neighbourhood and local councils up to the National Congress, and from there and above are appointed by elected officials, according to merit. This combines the best of both democracy and meritocracy, while the dangers of both are checked by the other.
5) Never experienced the boom-bust cycles typical of capitalist economies in its 40 years of steady development at a rate of roughly 10% per year.
6) Bottom segments of Chinese society experienced 40% growth since 1979; bottom segments of USA during same period: 1%. If the USA is not a good comparison due to its drastic differences in history and position, a much better one is India, another post colonial nation developing during the same period, which actually transitioned to capitalism: exponentially more inequality, nearly no progress or even regress for the poorest segments of society.
7) CPC representatives are installed in every privately owned corporation, and oversee operations of all enterprises in the private sector. CEOs, capitalists, and the super wealthy are answerable to the state, and are not above the law.
8. 1.5 million capitalists and state officials punished for corruption since 2007, 17% of whom imprisoned or executed. Compare this to capitalist countries that always rewards the excesses and crimes of their elites, such as the Wall Street bankers whose excesses caused the 2008 global financial crash.
9) Very real problems created by economic infrastructure building with capitalist methods, such as uneven development, inequality, bad work conditions, corruption, pollution, etc. are clearly and repeatedly addressed publicly, and in no uncertain terms. Correctional policies addressing each of these problems have been implemented, and already have had significant results.
10) Foreign engagement is always mutually beneficial, guided by the millennia old policy of strict non-interference, in support of independent development of regions dominated by imperialism. The New Silk Road, or Belt and Road initiative, seeks to build an international brotherhood of former colonised nations, together in strength against capitalist hegemony and imperial domination.
China:
1) Never privatised major industries such as energy or steel, which are all public owned. Compare this to the collapse of Yugoslavia, USSR, etc., which were all marked by an immediate devouring of major national industries by private entities: true transitions to capitalism.
2) Land remains collectivised, and leased to private persons or business entities for a maximum of 70 years. This, the absence of land inheritance, and the impossibility of generational land monopolisation, makes possible the extremely high home ownership rates in China (rural: roughly 90%; urban: roughly 80%) compared to other countries.
3) The bourgeois class, while necessary for development and allowed to exist, have no political power over the proletariate, and can not use their fortunes to influence policy, shape laws, or purchase the loyalty of politicians via lobbies and campaign contributions. The CPC is comprised almost entirely of working class representatives, extremely few capitalists. In the highest governing body, the National People’s Congress, there are 26 owners of private enterprises among 2600+ members (2018).
4) In Democratic Centralism, directly democratic decision making through elections proceeds from neighbourhood and local councils up to the National Congress, and from there and above are appointed by elected officials, according to merit. This combines the best of both democracy and meritocracy, while the dangers of both are checked by the other.
5) Never experienced the boom-bust cycles typical of capitalist economies in its 40 years of steady development at a rate of roughly 10% per year.
6) Bottom segments of Chinese society experienced 40% growth since 1979; bottom segments of USA during same period: 1%. If the USA is not a good comparison due to its drastic differences in history and position, a much better one is India, another post colonial nation developing during the same period, which actually transitioned to capitalism: exponentially more inequality, nearly no progress or even regress for the poorest segments of society.
7) CPC representatives are installed in every privately owned corporation, and oversee operations of all enterprises in the private sector. CEOs, capitalists, and the super wealthy are answerable to the state, and are not above the law.
8. 1.5 million capitalists and state officials punished for corruption since 2007, 17% of whom imprisoned or executed. Compare this to capitalist countries that always rewards the excesses and crimes of their elites, such as the Wall Street bankers whose excesses caused the 2008 global financial crash.
9) Very real problems created by economic infrastructure building with capitalist methods, such as uneven development, inequality, bad work conditions, corruption, pollution, etc. are clearly and repeatedly addressed publicly, and in no uncertain terms. Correctional policies addressing each of these problems have been implemented, and already have had significant results.
10) Foreign engagement is always mutually beneficial, guided by the millennia old policy of strict non-interference, in support of independent development of regions dominated by imperialism. The New Silk Road, or Belt and Road initiative, seeks to build an international brotherhood of former colonised nations, together in strength against capitalist hegemony and imperial domination.
China:
1) Never privatised major industries such as energy or steel, which are all public owned. Compare this to the collapse of Yugoslavia, USSR, etc., which were all marked by an immediate devouring of major national industries by private entities: true transitions to capitalism.
2) Land remains collectivised, and leased to private persons or business entities for a maximum of 70 years. This, the absence of land inheritance, and the impossibility of generational land monopolisation, makes possible the extremely high home ownership rates in China (rural: roughly 90%; urban: roughly 80%) compared to other countries.
3) The bourgeois class, while necessary for development and allowed to exist, have no political power over the proletariate, and can not use their fortunes to influence policy, shape laws, or purchase the loyalty of politicians via lobbies and campaign contributions. The CPC is comprised almost entirely of working class representatives, extremely few capitalists. In the highest governing body, the National People’s Congress, there are 26 owners of private enterprises among 2600+ members (2018).
4) In Democratic Centralism, directly democratic decision making through elections proceeds from neighbourhood and local councils up to the National Congress, and from there and above are appointed by elected officials, according to merit. This combines the best of both democracy and meritocracy, while the dangers of both are checked by the other.
5) Never experienced the boom-bust cycles typical of capitalist economies in its 40 years of steady development at a rate of roughly 10% per year.
6) Bottom segments of Chinese society experienced 40% growth since 1979; bottom segments of USA during same period: 1%. If the USA is not a good comparison due to its drastic differences in history and position, a much better one is India, another post colonial nation developing during the same period, which actually transitioned to capitalism: exponentially more inequality, nearly no progress or even regress for the poorest segments of society.
7) CPC representatives are installed in every privately owned corporation, and oversee operations of all enterprises in the private sector. CEOs, capitalists, and the super wealthy are answerable to the state, and are not above the law.
8. 1.5 million capitalists and state officials punished for corruption since 2007, 17% of whom imprisoned or executed. Compare this to capitalist countries that always rewards the excesses and crimes of their elites, such as the Wall Street bankers whose excesses caused the 2008 global financial crash.
9) Very real problems created by economic infrastructure building with capitalist methods, such as uneven development, inequality, bad work conditions, corruption, pollution, etc. are clearly and repeatedly addressed publicly, and in no uncertain terms. Correctional policies addressing each of these problems have been implemented, and already have had significant results.
10) Foreign engagement is always mutually beneficial, guided by the millennia old policy of strict non-interference, in support of independent development of regions dominated by imperialism. The New Silk Road, or Belt and Road initiative, seeks to build an international brotherhood of former colonised nations, together in strength against capitalist hegemony and imperial domination.
>>574213>Tries to make smug gotcha post to ebin pwn le ultras <4 post agree, 1 shitpost>*5 posts in* we..we.well that arkschually a quote by heckin stalerinooooololol I le pwn you leftypool!111!!First as tragedy, then as dengposting.
Low effort gotchas should really be moved to
>>>/siberia/ >>574268No, they don't. They use same metric of "extreme poverty".
Dengoids are always full of shit.
Nah, THIS is the power of dengism
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/02/18/great-wager-spy-soviet-union
<Turner and Deng met for about 45 minutes — a relatively short meeting when you take into account time for interpreters. Still, the meeting marked a turning point in the U.S.-China relationship. Deng and Turner agreed that their two countries would build and run spy stations in Western China to spy on the Soviet missile program, allowing the Americans to keep tabs on the Soviets, and for the Chinese to get technology they’d never had access to before.
<But before the CIA supplied the Chinese with the high-tech gear for the stations, they wanted even more confirmation to ensure that the Chinese would follow through on the agreement.
<A few months after Deng’s visit, a delegation from Congress traveled to China. Among them was Joe Biden, then the junior senator from Delaware.
<Fox Butterfield was The New York Times correspondent in China, the paper’s first to have access to the mainland run by the Communists. He recalls how Biden reached out and grabbed Deng’s hand to shake it.
<“I think that Deng was very perplexed, if not horrified,” Butterfield said. “But Biden grabbed his hand and flashed a big smile and somehow got through.”
<Biden asked Deng whether he’d really build the joint stations. And he got the confirmation the CIA needed: The stations were a go.>>574213>embarassing>literally nobody produces the desired response and "fell for it"Funny given how much seethe was generated from you when I attributed a hitler quote to Xi Jinping
Here is a (you) for your out of context di$ cord screencap "own"
>>574221>detournmentlike with me comparing Xi quotes on ancient Chinese socialism to Hitler and ancient German socialism?.Is that why you spammed reports on it until I got banned?
>ultramaybe don't be an npc and develop actual politics?
>op tries to bait and switch>too bad /leftypol/ actually read stalinheh good thread
>>574280Classic, I've been meaning to 'shop Milley in there from Garrison's other comics but
I'm late to the gym >>574301No it didn't.
See
>>574276>>574273 >>574305No, it's when you decommodify and socialize something. Like public health services or public education. Lenin talked about that too.
Do you have anything of substance to respond to my post or are you just gonna deflect and project?
>>574305No, socialism is when a state has a socialized mode of production, which China does. Through the Chinese state, the Communist Party directs industry on behalf of the people before cold profits, leading to prosperity for all rather than a few coastal elites. Actually learn about socialism in practice before criticizing the CPC from your armchair
>>574317Xi is bad because he didn’t instantly press the communism button, clearly the only way the most powerful nations on earth after Russia can save itself is by listening to white westerners who obviously know better than those backwards Chinamen
>>574333The argument being "what is china"
Not even who you are replying to, just think you people have issues. You should work them out with yourself.
>>574299>China sure has a lot to learn business wiseCapitalists are supplying China the rope they
need to hang the USA. Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.
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