>>576144>grainy>black-and-whiteI hate idealists.
I HATE IDEALISTS!
>>576159A: Russia isn't communist, don't care
B: Most countries don't have open Nazis as a core part of their army, and my country isn't giving billions in military aid to them
C: Don't care
D: Of course there are some conspiracy schizos, but it's true that the western media is lying about almost everything nowadays, the western media are the ones that told us all about Ukraine's Nazi issues until 2022 (see B)
E: Ukraine was bombing the land which (mostly) desired to be part of Russia, also Ukraine doesn't have a hope in hell of winning the war so they should seek an exit from it rather than perpetuating pointless slaughter. Also my country sucks balls, no way would I fight for it, and neither would plenty of Ukrainians which is why they fled abroad.
>>576155I'm going to guess that everyone is waiting to see how 2024, as an election year in many relevant places, is shaping the political landscape. A thing to keep in mind is that Ukraine's main utility is to keep Europe under US control and generate grievances to advance the cold war. The military stuff is probably just money changing hands by now.
>>576154Also the author:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Rose>Gideon Rose is a former editor of Foreign Affairs and a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. He served as Associate Director for Near East and South Asian Affairs on the staff of the National Security Council from 1994 to 1995 under the Clinton Administrationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Foreign_RelationsAlso also:
https://swprs.org/the-american-empire-and-its-media/https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2023/06/04/15-reasons-why-mass-media-employees-act-like-propagandists/ >>576159>the communistPure strawman, no one actually thinks Russia is communist, liberals are just fundamentally incapable of engaging a principled anti-imperialist position so they have to deflect with strawmen
>the lefty antifascistThere is plenty of evidence that Ukraine's state involvement with the far-right goes far beyond "just having some neo-nazi problems like any other country". Russia having "as many nazis" is a laughably and blatantly false tu quoque as Putin purged most prominent Russian nazis in the same time Ukraine was promoting them, many of them even ended up fleeing to Ukraine
>the contrarianImagine trusting Western MSM or Ukraine's state propaganda.
>the peacenikI would in fact urge surrender if the choice was between "hundreds of thousands dead and my country's economy and demography ruined forever" and "formally give up a couple of regions that we haven't had any control over for 8 years and stop bootlicking the West so hard"
>>576159>ANobody thinks Russia is communist, nor are they "standing up for the little guy" in an altruistic sense. However their actions are shaking the US grip on global politics, which makes it easier for exploited people to assert their own power as the international bourgeoisie becomes more divided and weaker. Russia is helping the little guy essentially as a side effect of their actions.
>BUkraine is objectively a fascist country, not because it has a lot of fascists, but because fascists have much more power, and this is reflected in their policies. Fascism is best defined as the use of terroristic repression against the left to preserve the power of the ruling class. This far more accurately describes Ukraine (where virtually all socialist parties are outlawed and trade union activity is heavily restricted) than it does Russia (where communists are the largest opposition party). Not to mention the openly Nazi units incorporated into their military, or the state-sponsored veneration of Ukrainian Nazi collaborators. These types have far less influence in Russia, which is why many Russian Nazis are fighting for Ukraine.
>D Won't bother because it's not applicable.
>EThe war is NATO's fault, and most of the world sees it that way. No state would allow a military alliance dominated by a hostile, aggressive power like the US to set up a proxy government on its most vulnerable border. The US literally almost started WW3 over Cuba doing something similar. Many policy analysts in the US itself were warning that Russia would react this way as far back as the 90s, and the war could have been avoided if the US had given guarantees that they would not admit Ukraine into NATO. Russia is reacting in a predictable and rational manner, regardless of how you feel of the morality of it. If I lived in a country with a government like Ukraine's, there's no way I would take up arms to defend it. There's nothing about it worth defending.
>>576156Would it be possible to track who actually calls for expansion of production capacity? Because my personal bias tells me, those articles come almost exclusively from random chumps and the Pentagon itself.
>“We went through six years of Stingers in 10 months,” Gregory J. Hayes, Raytheon’s chief executive, said in an interview earlier this month, referring to 1,600 of the company’s shoulder-fired antiaircraft missiles sent by the U.S. government to Ukraine. “So it will take us multiple years to restock and replenish.”What the fuck are these timetables?
>>576159A. is a strawman that nobody here believes (Russia isn't communist), but Russia is standing up to the hegemonic West and effectively for the little guy, whether Russia likes it or not.
B. Ukraine's issues with neo-nazis are more significant (and disqualifying) than Russia or almost any other state. Polls of randos are irrelevant to the character of the state and security forces.
D. The MSM systematically lies about Ukraine, the war and its causes and history to manipulate people into supporting the proxy war. Russia's case wrt Ukraine also has many valid points, but these all get defined as "propaganda". D is basically just exaggerating and mischaracterizing a reasonable view to discredit it,
E. first sentence is the correct position. second sentence is a non-sequitur that ignores the context and causes of the conflict, and opinions of the people who live in the "occupied land", probably none of which applies to the peacenik's country.
>>576159I mean all of these are about finding some kind of contradiction in a Westerner supporting Russia over Ukraine for pathological reasons. However, only one side here talks about the degeneration of a global system while the other talks about barbaric threats in its absence.
Since this is no longer the 1980s, there are a lot of Westerners willing to talk about the former. There are many different ways left or right of doing this, however what unites them is that they're just small internet fringes of a wider popular dissatisfaction, division, apathy, or what have you with liberal capitalism. The endless wars while the middle class rot is what did it imo, younger generations coming of age from the recession on are so disaffected
So of course there's a variety of Western people who no longer believe in their government's role in the world. It's just, we have to lash out at this instead of reflecting because the empire is declining.
Ukraine is polarizing because it represents bourgeois democracy degenerating into fascism. Right now either you think democracy is being rejuvenated by threats to it or you think it's degenerating into the logic of a global class dictatorship.
>>576184 (me)
>>576183wait fuck you this is a russian hero being killed
>>576183/k/opers trying to gorepost after what happened to their pet NATO army last week is just so pathetic lmao
like have some self respect
>>576199Used to be that a two years tour of duty of arguing for Communism on /pol/ was required to be an effective /leftypol/ak tankie
Should we bring this one back ?
>>576192recently or overall?
i think things are much worse for ukraine then people generally say outloud because k/d/r posting is cringe
>>576195Wait so
1. NATO claims rockets were fired at Kiev while the African delegation was there
2. Africa claims that no such thing happened and the meeting went on as expected
3. The video evidence clearly shows the African dude in a bomb shelter
So if the video evidence is on the side of NATO, what am I to conclude here?
>>576205The African dude in the video is clearly outside
I assume we're talking of a photo of the president?
>>576208NTA but that's why the comic said "equally
shallow counternarrative". I think they are challenging you to prove that your narrative is deep, not that /pol/'s is shallow
i haven't read the whole conversation though >>576197>I posted on /pol/ under the commie flag for yearsself harm
>I am immune to death threats.people who self harm usually are
>>576197>I posted on /pol/ under the commie flag for yearsyou take posting too seriously. this isn't a tour of duty. if you want to kill nazis go sign up to fight in your home country, ukraine.
>I am immune to death threats.yeah because they were from anonymous faggots on the other side of the planet and not from a lynch mob right outside your house
>Because "stepping outside my echochamber" (lmao) did more to entrench my beliefs than anything ever could.If you needed to talk to retarded nazis on 4chan to become an entrenched communist you're high key retarded, especially if you're working class. the benefits of communism should be obvious to you because of your material interests.
>>576214Technically those mudpies are being produced for use value ;o)
>>576210I think that's a correct reading of their argument, however my counterargument to this is that the effect in question is real, it's part of why various religious groups such as Mormon missionaries, Jehovah's witnesses doorknock
My wager here is that communism is objectively correct and therefore the deepest there is to wit an objective understanding of reality, entrenching it is worth it on its own and therefore exploiting this effect is worthwhile as an initiation for some especially if they already understand the objective correctness of communism and need only hone their rhetorical skills in support of it in dialogue
>>576210I'm pretty sure that they are saying a single narrative is an incomplete description of the world which consists of different competing narratives that come from different perspectives. Its kind of like ethics in that which narrative is important to you is subjective and determined by what ends you are investigating.
So “the history of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggles” is false as a universal proposition because there are different perspectives on history. If you are not interested in changing the way things are then class struggle wont be important to you and history could be about your favorite books and movies instead.
The hidden assumption is that allowing a single narrative to dominate your perspective(such as being committed to human emancipation) leads to a "totalitarian" psychology. In the end it really is just repackaged anti-communism.
>>576206>counter-narratives must be deepNo, they don't. I can argue any opposing point better than my opponents can, that's the real problem with echo-chambers - I give benefit and sympathy to those that don't fucking deserve it. We live in a material reality, and it's viable and
optimal to judge the validity of a position by the crowd around it, and my opponents are absolute imbeciles, scumfucks, degenerates, and gulag fodder.
>>576241Such is the postmodern mind
Unable even to conceive of objective truths and reality
>>576242you needed to go to /pol/ for
years to realize that?
To continue the argument for there being an objective reality ie. Communism that rules over narratives
Notice how ukrainian tank anon is not dying in the kievan regime's volksturm
Is it not a good thing to have objective reality utterly entrenched through the process described in
>>576206 >>576221 ?
In fact could it not be said that it is objectively good to have objective reality entrenched into ones worldview?
>>576211There's nothing inherently wrong with postmodernism beyond the fact that it's difficult to get into, given that it builds on modernism which builds on like, all of western philosophical tradition.
Also is dialectical materialism even modernism? I thought that was later
>>576252So then operation Aerodynamic or whatever that effort was called to use the tiny minority of butthurt Nazi collaborators failed during the cold war… only to succeed decades later in supplanting Ukraine's national identity. And this time it wasn't the rehabilitated Nazi spy apparatus or spycraft, it was done through soy-dripping PR, NGOs and empowering lumpen thugs with surplus junk.
And the part that is so weird about this is these glowops seem to work all the same, even if they are a continuation of something already admitted to and partly declassified as a glowop from 70 years ago.I am not smart or well read, but this stuff defies common sense. If money can exert this sort of power through media even with today's availability of information, then what is the point of political education? What sort of agency can be wrought from the masses if such uncritical control is possible?
The US/NATO is all but declaring war on China pretty much arbitrarily as far as the PR goes and it's just another culture war talking point. Immigrants welfare, abortion oh yeah and a decades long project towards realizing the "BILLIONS MUST DIE" trope. But anyway, let's go back to idpol and celebrity gossip.
>>576269Proof that USSR was too liberal
The only solution to Nazis is complete and utter liquidation
>>576276But it is weird right that when it comes to seething about revisionists, the western left is ranting almost exclusively about Deng Xiaoping and his economic reforms that kept the PRC in existence, whereas Khrushchev and his open placement of America and it's economy on a pedestal as the yardstick for development, making the USSR and USA directly comparable and even placing the US as significantly ahead of the USSR and trying to follow Americas footsteps with that Cornman arc, surely this is so ideologically backwards for a communist leader it's only obvious that a large part of why the USSR no longer exists is because there wasn't a de-Khruschevication of Soviet society after he was removed the idea that Communist and Capitalist nations not only could, but
should be compared. That certainly does more to restore capitalism in a capitalist nation than mere market reforms.
>>576279There is plenty of ranting about Khrushchev when people talk about the USSR. But the USSR is dead so there is no hope there. People just wish the PRC was less revisionist or at least funded revolution like the revisionist USSR did.
The lack of internationalism is my primary issue with the PRC.
>>576281Well isn't that ass-backwards
>Let's not critique what failed, let's critique what workedBecause IMO beyond economic critiques a lot of western leftists buy into the idea of China being an authoritarian state and unironically advocate for quasi-Khruschevian social reform and again treating NATO nations as the yardstick for freedom and human rights
>>576282I just said people critique Khrushchev. But the fucking USSR is gone so it offers no hope to revolution now.
Also, most of the critiques of Khruschev apply to post-Mao leadership of the PRC. Deng was just better than Gorbachev as he didn't destroy the Party. But he still ceded ground in the class war to the capitalists, and if the PRC in the future wants to move towards communism it will have to fight inside and outside the Party to do it.
>buy into the idea of China being an authoritarian stateIt is an authoritarian state. And that's a good thing. It's the only way to keep liberals in check.
>>576283>The PRC only exists because not only was it revisionist, it did revisionism very wellTo me this just sounds like you're buying into the idea that "real communism" doesn't work, because every AES ends up being revisionist and therefore the difference between surviving and falling to capitalists is just how successful you are at revisionism.
But China isn't part of NATO, it hasn't handed over its industry to western owners, Marxism is still taught at a university level in China rather than a footnote in Political Economy classes as an example of a wrong interpretation of history and economics, the vast majority of Eastern Europe, who were influenced by Khruschevian "communism" is the opposite. China has preserved some Marxist thought in it's society despite resorting to Markets for further development of productive capacity and has been used to grow the proletariat in China in both terms of size and wealth, whereas the Eastern European Communist parties just completely surrendered to Capitalism and accepted the ruin of millions because "ackshually perhaps the US ain't that bad".
To me European Communism was solely revisionist and went the way it did by either design or not really believing communism to be *that* important when American proles have bananas and porn, whereas China just reformed successfully without revising itself in to actual unironic capitalism.
>>576284>To me this just sounds like you're buying into the idea that "real communism" doesn't workNo, that was Deng when he decided that planning was less effective at economic growth than markets. Thus undercutting the very basis for Marx's theory of the inevitability of communism.
>because every AES ends up being revisionistBecause nearly all AES was dependent upon the USSR and so followed them into revisionism. There was a reason why Mao split with Khruschev. The CPC spent years detailing the exact issues with the revisionism occurring in the USSR. But Maoists lost when the Cultural Revolution failed, and Deng's faction took over the CPC.
>But China isn't part of NATO, it hasn't handed over its industry to western ownersNeither has Iran.
>Marxism is still taught at a university level in China rather than a footnote in Political Economy classesRevisionist Marxism but at least there is a chance some anti-revisionists might try and reform the CPC in the future.
But if you think the capitalist roaders who are benefiting economically from the current "mixed economy" will go quietly into the night you haven't been paying attention to what happened to the USSR.
>whereas China just reformed successfully without revising itself in to actual unironic capitalismKhruschev "reformed successfully" without doing unironic capitalism. It was the next generation that fumbled and destroyed the USSR.
So why is it that Deng set a precedent with his reforms but Khrushchev is innocent when drawing unfavorable comparisons between the USSR and US and it was just his successors who thought "if you can't beat them, join them" that destroyed the USSR but they got this line of thinking out of nowhere?
Y'know the revisionism of Eastern Europe deposited it's proletariat straight back into late-stage capitalism, either as an imperialist state or a colonial state where wages are low and unemployment is high and capital is exported or expropriated, but the "revisionism" of China has seen it through a latent bourgeois revolution where the significant development of the productive forces occur and the China has seen massive improvements in the conditions of the proletariat, albeit as expected no where near as much as their bourgeoisie, but this is all part of the plan, this is how it was always historically destined to work for reasons I surely don't need to explain.
Isn't this just kicking the dirt that China hasn't found a way to short circuit the historical developments considered crucial to the development of the productive forces that drives civilisations forward until resistances get too high to slow it down and revolution occurs? China hasn't changed this and nor does it want to, proles in Eastern Europe will need to "rediscover" Marxism when the time comes, much effort is expended in hoping Eastern European will forget communism for ever, but Chinese proletarians won't need to rediscover anything, the knowledge and the correct interpretation of society is not obscured from them.
>>576291This is true, and I agree that it's less likely China will crumble into something like the former USSR. But why is Khrushchev specifically the one to blame? I've followed these discussions for years and I've never been able to truly understand what was so horrible about Khrushchev. There was no capitalist class to speak of during his leadership and the USSR still actively supported revolutionary movements and socialist states around the world. The cause and effect is not obvious to me.
Meanwhile Gorby's reforms were drastic and destroyed the USSR in just a few short years, there's a clear cause and effect there. I don't think that was inevitable, Gorby fucked everything up either intentionally or by sheer incompetence.
>>576290>So why is it that Deng set a precedent with his reforms but Khrushchev is innocentNo one fucking says that. In fact most (online) Dengists argue the opposite. That Khrushchev was a dangerous revisionist and Deng wasn't a revisionist despite going much further than Khrushchev did.
>Isn't this just kicking the dirt that China hasn't found a way to short circuit the historical developments considered crucial to the development of the productive forcesThis is rejecting Lenin for Plekhanov.
This is what shits me about Dengists. You say Lenin and Stalin where correct when Dengist theory is just Plekhanov and Bukharin re-heated.
Pick a fucking side.
>>576292Khrushchev not only smeared Stalin in his attempt to seize control of the CPSU (from which he was purged for crimes he accused Stalin of). He weakened Leninist discipline, rehabilitated people who had been rightly purged during Stalin's time, and began reforms that were the beginning of marketisation by stealth. Gorbachev never would have been general secretary if it weren't for the reforms of Khrushchev.
>>576292It's just a matter of opinion I suppose, IMO Khrushchev introduced that competitive dimension on the Soviet side in the cold war despite being a drastically different society with very different aims, going Ga Ga over American supermarkets was a bad idea because they're a result of imperialism and not anything like American ingenuity or pragmatism or access to lots of corn and the USSR therefore couldn't replicate American 'successes' anyway.
During Leninist and Stalinist times, there weren't really any such comparisons with the US, just a focus on what is needed and plans to achieve whatever it is. Huge expenditure into stuff like the space race, arms race, trying to grow corn just because it grows well in the US, this all comes from competitiveness with a form of society that's by Marxist definitions is in the past when you've got Communism.
While sending the first man in to space is a proud achievement, it doesn't actually prove Communism to be a more advanced society than Capitalism, but then why was so much effort expended on it? The USSR would have secured it's territory with perhaps a couple hundred of nuclear weapons, so why did they build thousands and then also build the largest conventional army in the world on top of that? It was all competing with the western bourgeoisie for bragging rights and I think that was the kernel of counter-revolution that introduced pointless competition with capitalism on silly, irrelevant metrics that ultimately let politicians in the East to think they'll never win against capitalism in these dumb metrics and therefore "if you can't beat them, join them" and thereby allow much more aggressive forms of counter-revolution to exist out of some kind of bizarre understanding and solidarity with them by the end that allowed for bloodless colour revolutions.
China picked markets and chose to make the unpopular decision to not rush or short circuit necessary historical developments, but AFAIK they never adopted markets to compete with the US, their metrics for economic development is still concerned with stuff that actually matters like how much high speed rail has been lain, other than just seeking statistics and shit.
That's why in my opinion, the reforms China made are acceptable, while Khrushchev did not collapse European communism himself, his weird simping for America and desire to compete directly with them was a fatal ideological deviation that was never purged and festered until Communist Parties started thinking capitalism wasn't something worth resisting tooth and nail.
>>576295Calm down, getting angry isn't going to solve anything.
Lenin had his NEP and it's explicitly said by Engles in the principals of communism that private property is not something that can be removed instantly or even prematurely before this revolution is naturally caused by the growth of the productive forces are outgrowing those who own the means of production for private intereste, the reasons for which were discovered during the Cultural Revolution sadly.
>>576285>No, that was Deng when he decided that planning was less effective at economic growth than markets.It was also true
>Thus undercutting the very basis for Marx's theory of the inevitability of communism.No it didn't.
>>576298>Lenin had his NEPWhich he explicitly said was the allowance of a free market and capitalism. And Dengists will piss and moan if you say the PRC has free markets and capitalism.
Stalin was also on the side of ending the NEP and Bukharin was for continuing. Therefore, again, you cannot support the theories of both Stalin and Bukharin.
>Engles in the principals of communism that private property is not something that can be removed instantly or even prematurely before this revolution is naturally caused by the growth of the productive forcesWhich is the line Plekanov took. So, again, you can't support the theories of both Lenin and Plekanov.
Lukashenko quoting Stalin.
https://eng.belta.by/president/view/lukashenko-hosts-meeting-on-hr-policy-159667-2023/
>The president said that such a representative composition of the meeting was absolutely reasonable. “We are going to discuss the most important issue today. Human resources. Cadre are key. They decide everything. It is true,” the head of state said.Stalin said.
>"That is why the old slogan, “Technique decides everything,” which is a reflection of a period already passed, a period in which we suffered from a dearth of technique, must now be replaced by a new slogan, the slogan “Cadres decide everything.” That is the main thing now."duginbased.webm
>>576304The probing will continue until morale improves!
But yeah that's the sort of crap I said they'd come up with weeks ago. The offensive won't be official until it has made a large breakthrough.
>>576274if russia captures 100% won't they be required to pay the debt though
better capture 99.1% and let the westernmost region pay up the blackrock/raytheon shit :^)
>>576311Plekhanov was the "orthodox" Marxist saying Lenin and the Bolsheviks were radicals who would doom Russia by trying to force a proletarian revolution before the "productive forces" were ready.
So, again, you can't support both Lenin and Plekhanov.
>>576319>Why should different nations, histories and epochs matter?I don't need to explain why China is a different case when you've already got three significant material differences there. To think there is one historical truth to implementing Marxism and any variance there is just factionalism where you're for some reason needing to defend the legacy of your favourite revolutionary is really dumb and I'm not entertaining it.
Lenin vs Plekhanov is a retarded framing of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, perhaps you should just go back to liberalism where defending factions is the limit of political thought.
>>576322>where defending factions is the limit of political thoughtThat is exactly what you are doing. You are defending Deng but you can't actually explain why Deng was right and Plekhanov was wrong.
Dengists would be more honest if they just said Pelhanov and Bukharin were right but then they couldn't pretend to support Lenin and Stalin.
>>576323Why is Deng vs Plehkanov even a thing though? Different nation, different history, different global position, different epoch. Lenin and Stalin for example didn't exist in a world where the societies they created ceased to exist, let alone the revisionism of Khrushchev.
Like I said, this is a retarded framing of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, the world didn't end in 1921, the USSR wasn't founded and that was the end of Communist history, but ultimately that's what this seething about
>REEEE NO PLEKHANOV AGREED WITH ENGLES OUT OF ORTHODOXY>YOU HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH ENGLE BECAUSE LENIN DID BECAUSE THE NATION, HISTORY AND EPOCH WAS DIFFERENT!You just want that one interpretation to be a one-size fits all, you're decrying one orthodoxy with an other and though Marxism-Leninism is very good at orchestrating revolutions, the argument between Lenin and Plekhanov was around orchestrating revolution and Lenin was correct, he was correct in Russia and he was correct in China when Mao applied Leninism to China. The modern PRC aren't face with the issue of seizing power over an imperialist state, the CCP are already in control, what their focus on is socialist development and that's why
LENIN VS PLEKHANOV CHOSE ONE is retarded.
Like I said, please return to liberalism if you just want tribalism.
>>576331TUV
TOTAL UKRAINIAN VICTORY
SOON TRAITORS WILL STARVE TO DEATH - GLORY TO STEPAN BANDERA
>>576334>resorts to profanity when facing some minor challengewhat challenge?
>>576328>Soviets built the dam to withstand small nuclear explosionswhat is the source for this?
>>576333WWG1WGA
Banderites in control
>Putin orders study of gays. 16 Jun, 2023 11:27
>The Russian President has ordered the creation of a special institute focused on examining homosexuality and gender identityhttps://www.rt.com/russia/578142-putin-orders-lgbtq-study/
>Russia is set to create a new psychiatric institute dedicated to studying, among other things, the behavior of LGBTQ people as well as issues dealing with gender roles and identity, Health Minister Mikhail Murashko revealed during a discussion in the State Duma on Thursday.
>Amid a lower parliament discussion of a bill that would ban sex change operations in Russia, Murashko was asked by Deputy Anatoly Wasserman to what extent the Health Ministry was paying attention to studies on psychological and, if need be, psychiatric methods of bringing misconceptions about gender back in line with reality.
>The minister responded by pointing out that there are several medical research centers in Russia that are already studying this issue. He added that President Vladimir Putin has also ordered the creation of “an additional institute on the basis of our federal center of psychiatry to study not only these, but also a number of behavioral areas, including social behavior.”
>According to the Health Ministry, this new institute will be formed on the basis of the Serbsky Center for Psychiatry and Narcology. Murashko noted that LGBTQ research will further be expanded upon and included in the obligatory scientific studies in addition to what is already being done today.
>LGBTQ groups in Russia have decried Murashko’s statement, suggesting that such research is akin to so-called “conversion therapy,” which is a set of physical and psychological methods aimed at treating non-heterosexual orientations and gender identity. Such methods have been condemned by the World Health Organization and the United Nations, which have called them pseudoscientific and likened them to torture.
>However, neither Murashko nor any other representatives of the Health Ministry have explicitly mentioned conversion therapy in their statements and it is unclear if lawmakers have any intent to introduce such methods or legislation.
>On Wednesday, lawmakers adopted a bill in the first reading that would outlaw almost all sex reassignment surgeries as well as gender changes on official documents in Russia. The legislation, if passed, would only allow limited surgical procedures aimed at remedying “congenital anomalies” in children.
>Duma Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin pointed out that the primary goal of the new bill is to protect children and pointed to statistics in the US, where he stated the proportion of transgender people among teenagers is already three times higher than among adults thanks to LGBTQ propaganda. >>576357Ha right, and I think Third World comrades should stop putting
>Death to anglosin their Twitter bios because it's unfair to me and hurts my fee fees lmao
>>576349>The press service of the Ministry of Health of Russia RBC reported that the content of Mikhail Murashko's speech in a speech at the plenary session of the State Duma was distorted. They clarified that "we are talking about the development of the Serbsky Federal Center for Psychiatry, whose program is currently being developed. The Institute will study aggressive human behavior, the influence of environmental and genetic factors on aggressive behavior, as well as the development of predictive behaviors: dependent, autodestructive behavior, victim behavior, behavior under stress, maladaptive behavior, disorganized behavior."Sounds like a case of "scientist rapes journalist" or the guy running his mouth without knowing.
Only news I can find that are specifically framing it as a "LGBT research institute" are from Western and liberast sources.
I am roughly 80% certain nothing will come out of it, but we'll see.
>>576357What about orc/zigga?
>>576359>>576356>>576351>>576350>>576348I found more inform on the bill now. I went to Russia state duma website to have the most precise details and I am translating it to English.
http://duma.gov.ru/news/57290/
>MPs support amendments to ban gender reassignment
>The bill introduces a ban on medical workers to perform gender reassignment surgery, except in cases of treatment of congenital physiological anomalies of sex formation in children. Among the authors of the initiative are Vyacheslav Volodin and leaders of all factions
>At the plenary session on June 14, a draft law was adopted in the first reading , establishing a complete ban on medical interventions aimed at gender reassignment, as well as excluding state registration of gender reassignment without surgery. Almost 400 deputies from all factions headed by the Chairman of the State Duma Vyacheslav Volodin became its authors .
>“The worst thing is the molestation of children,” said Vyacheslav Volodin at the plenary session. “In the United States, where these new pseudo-values are promoted, the proportion of transgender people among teenagers is already three times higher than among the adult population. This is the result of propaganda. The number of children receiving hormone therapy has more than doubled in five years. Pumping up children with hormones begins at the age of eight. Over five years, from 2017 to 2021, more than 2,000 gender reassignment surgeries were performed on children aged 13 to 17.”
>“We do not want this to happen in our country. Let the diabolical policy be carried out in the USA,” the Chairman of the State Duma emphasized.
>Amendments are proposed to be made to the federal laws "On acts of civil status" and "On the basics of protecting the health of citizens in the Russian Federation."
>"Medical workers are prohibited from carrying out medical interventions aimed at changing the sex of a person, including the formation of a person's primary and (or) secondary sexual characteristics of the other sex," the draft law says.
>Also, in accordance with the amendments, "medical interventions related to the treatment of congenital physiological anomalies of sex formation in children are allowed by decision of the medical commission of the federal state healthcare institution." The list of such anomalies will be approved by the Government of the Russian Federation.
>As the Chairman of the State Duma clarified, the final version of the document can be adopted in the spring session. “We will be able to consider the bill in the near future during the spring session. It all depends on us,” he said. >>576363Looks like bourgeois liberal democracy at work
Liberal democracy couldn't possibly be a shit form of government that leads to such things could it?
After all, if it was would not such things also be gaining traction in burgerland or bongland?
>>576357>It makes absolutely no sense for communists to slander entire ethnic groups/ukraine/ isn’t a thread for communists though
its a thread for Russian nationalists
>>576368it’s a temporary arrangement
we /chug/chinlets will leave when HOHOLS are finally btfo
>>576348It would be kinda funny if the people in this institute make a genuine scientific inquiry on LGBT people and come to same conclusion as people in the West and consequently get their shit kicked in by the FSB.
But in all likelihood they'll just repeat what the people in the Russian government wants to hear.
>>576370>people in the WestAround half of burgeria is Taliban tier on social issues, the rainbow flags painted all over the bombs and embassies that kill innocent children are just an attempt to hide that shame
Don't give the west that kind of credit it doesn't deserve it
>>576326If you believe Bukharin, Plehanov and the mensheviks were all wrong in saying russia wasn't ready for socialism because the productive forces were insufficiently developed (ie. you believe russian productive forces were sufficiently developed for socialism in the 1910s-1930s), then it's incoherent to claim Deng/'Dengism' is correct when claiming China in 1980s-now has insufficiently developed productive forces for socialism unless you want to argue that the China of today is behind the Russia of 1917 in terms of productive forces development. The difference in material conditions is opposite to what it would need to be for this claim to make sense. It's that simple, not a tribalistic defence of a particular theorist or faction, just clarity about the incompatibility of two positions vis a vis eachother.
I think today's self-proclaimed 'dengist' MLs aren't actually cofnused about this or have an internally incoherent view because they don't think of 'Lenin - Stalin - Deng, no contradiction!' in terms of their theory and what they believed about marxism, socialism or productive force, but rather in terms of campism and continuity of power, because in those terms you can draw a direct line between them, the ideas and goals changed dramtically and aren't consistent with eachother but because it's all one camp that doesn't matter. Same way that the same people won't see contraction between third period social fascism and the united front, both came from Stalin so it's all folded in neatly.
At the end of the day for these people political statements, theory, etc. are not sincerely held thoughts about reality but weapons tactically deployed whenever expedient in a constantly shifting campist struggle that their worldview and 'political activity' consists of.
That's the real meaning of 'but the conditions are different' it isn't a statement corresponding to addressing theory in it's actual context and meaning but to a fundamental banality of theory and it's pragmatic use to justify the current state of things, ideology in it's true sense.
>>576373>If you believe Bukharin, Plehanov and the mensheviks were all wrong in saying russia wasn't ready for socialism because the productive forces were insufficiently developed (ie. you believe russian productive forces were sufficiently developed for socialism in the 1910s-1930s), then it's incoherent to claim Deng/'Dengism' is correct when claiming China in 1980s-now has insufficiently developed productive forces for socialism unless you want to argue that the China of today is behind the Russia of 1917 in terms of productive forces development. The difference in material conditions is opposite to what it would need to be for this claim to make sense. It's that simple, not a tribalistic defence of a particular theorist or faction, just clarity about the incompatibility of two positions vis a vis eachother.This ignores that capitalism in its morbid symptoms has generated new needs and desires
Many new needs and desires
>>576373>blah blahI'm not saying China isn't "ready for socialism", what I'm saying is they already have had their revolution in terms of deposing the previous feudal government and have secured control of the state and are progressing through socialist development now in the way they see fit. You still can't compare this to disagreements between Lenin and Plekhanov whether Russia can have a revolution to depose the Tsar and form a Socialist government, that discussion has already come and gone in China with Mao utilising Leninism to bring a Socialist government to China.
Plekhanov died before the USSR was even founded, Lenin didn't really live that long into socialist development once having founded the USSR, that's why the conditions are different, the disagreement you're trying to apply to modern China predate anyone having a Socialist state. You'd have to be either a moron of intellectually dishonest to think the two situations between Pre-Soviet Russia and the modern PRC are so similar, pre-revolutionary debates are applicable to a post-revolutionary state 100 years later.
>>576285>he decided that planning was less effective at economic growth than marketsits not that it's less effective in a vacuum, it was definitely less effective when most of the world capital, technologies and industry was in the capitalist west that straight up refused trading with socialist states except for getting cheap raw resources
allowing the capitalist to come, invest and develop the country was definitely the right choice as long as the party kept its grip on power and could keep them in check
even repelling the iron bowl was because it was the only way to get into the WTO
I believe deng to be a communist, but also someone who was able to think in geopolitical terms and about the place of his country in the global arena
krushev on the other hand was an incompetent buffoon, pretty good at politicking internally but absolutely awful at running a state. The sino soviet split, the shitting on stalin, the retarded meddling in agriculture, the praising of capitalist west, all this is on him and the party of these years.
>>576374The implication being that the 'threshold' at which productive forces are sufficiently developed for socialism has vastly increased? If that is the case then socialism is an eternally retreating horizon like that one radio yerevan joke. Which is very convenient for dengists, 2050 can become 2100 and so on.
Now the response to this can be 'well, of course the threshold is different, capitalism has advanced and built up more advanced productive forces, so for socialism to be possible we must outpace them' so therefore socialism is only possible where there are the most advanced productive forces, a moving threshold, but then you're back to plehanov, kautsky and the mensheviks saying socialism and revolution should only be carried out in the advanced capitalist countries and the Bolsheviks were mistaken, they carried out a historical abberation and setback.
Then there's then issue of the USSR, if you do believe this threshold is shifting and more developed productive forces are neccessary then how can the USSR be claimed to be socialist if it's developement never exceeded the west, certainly not as much as China has today. And yet most MLs obviously uphold the USSR and the eastenr bloc as socialist and its socialism as self-evidently possible despite capitalism in the west continuing to 'raise the threshold'. Moreover the belief is widespread that the failure of the USSR was due sinister revisionist elements and not inability to compete and match the rising threshold of productive forces development for maintaining socialism, so another inconsistency.
And if you do believe that this was the case and the USSR wasn't able to satisfy these needs due to insuffiently developed productive forces then you're back to Bukharin claiming the same and advocating markets and support for the peasantry to continue controlled capitalist development of productive forces.
>>576376This tbqh, I just don't think market reforms as part of socialist development is the crime many ultras think it is, instead I think the revisionism of Khrushchev introduced an idiotic form of competition with Capitalist states based on metrics they've set, that results in shit like the USSR being considered to have been "stagnating" in the 1970s when most other capitalist countries were having economic crashes not seen since the Great Depression. That turned what should have been a resounding victory for Communism, a maintenance of high living standards when all around the USSR is chaos into a perceived failure because
>erm yes but what about the growth? have you even considered the GDP?and that's a far worse crime as an ideological deviation instead of
>need productive forced to be developed>lets use the tried and true method of markets to get thereState capitalism? Sure, but they're not ideologically cucking themselves to the idea that the US is to be envied or even fought based on economic statistics.
>>576328why would russia have blown it ? they loose crimea fresh water, they loose their defensive positions and minefields, they give ukrainians an easier time crossing the river
on the other hand, we know because ukrainians were proudly saying it and russian confirmed it, that ukrops bombed the dam with himars, destroying the machinery, and talked about destroying it.
finally theres the real possibility that the combination of bombardment weakening the structure/creating critical weak points, and very high water level eventually caused it to fail.
but its funny watching dumbfucks with 0 reliable info proudly saying a random fucking dam would need a nuclear charge just to be able to conclude "russia bad"
>>576387>>576385I could go with a hot take on social issues and medical costs but let's keep it clean
The soviet union produced the best hunting shotgun bar none
Hunters in the soviet union needed no other gun other than the one with the soviet stamp of quality on it their needs were satisfied even many USano hunters needs were satisfied by it
Now look at things after the era blackest reaction breaks out after the fall of the soviet union, does one excellent best for purpose shotgun satisfy the need of hunters or are their all sorts of firearms and props for them
needed >>576385There isn't a "threshold" people set and transition to communism at that exact point, Marx has already theorised that under socialism private property and eventually the state withers away due to advance development of the productive forces outgrowing the existing relations of production and private ownership of productive property.
If China is developing their productive forces, and they are, then transition to communism is a matter of material dialectics already defined by Marx, is that Plekhanov thought as well? Was Marx wrong there that this will be a natural development that instead of just needing a "push" with revolution, it ackshually needs ultras like you to say
>That's it! That's enough productive capacity for the next few centuries, I declare communism now! Come on everyone, put the private property in the bowl I'm redistributing it >>576328ukraine plenty of times attacked the dam with himmars. it's been recorded cannister on the dam from the himmars rockets.
it's make no sense for Russia to blow a structure that:
Held water for Crimea
Avoided the terrain to becoming a marsh in areas they want to control.
/k/o(ink)pe.
>>576353>imblying Russia doesn't do overhaul/k/ope.
wow, so much kopers earlier this morning. huh.
>>576252nyt is doing a good job with this shitty historical revisionism. at this point, they are at one step of claiming hitler dindu nuffin wrong, one step too close.
>>576256will we start to ask
when hitler started to be praised again, rather than
when it was permitted to whitewash nazi crimes too much, sooner than I expected.
bonk
>>576414Absolutely no idea from this angle
>>576259>There's nothing inherently wrong with postmodernism beyond the fact that it's difficult to get into, given that it builds on modernism which builds on like, all of western philosophical tradition. Instead of getting angry and shouting, I would like to politely inform you that you are completely mistaken.
Just because something comes after or is "built on" something "good", doesn't mean that something is also "good". Postmodernism is the belief that we can never really know what's going on, in other words, we'll never be able to know "true reality", so we have to invent stories and narratives that best or in the simplest terms describe it.
Postmodernists are against "grand narratives" and categorically reject dialectical materialism, because grand narratives imply that all the individual actions people do, add up to something more, that there emerges a recognisable pattern from seemingly random events.
For postmodernists, life is a series of random events that have no relation to one another. Which is why they love Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, because they believe that means "randomness" is built into the very fabric of matter. But it doesn't and it isn't.
I could also be completely wrong, don't believe meI've attached a book I haven't read, it's on postmodernism. Pretty sure it agrees with me that postmodernism is dumb.
>>576252>accused collaboratorDon't get too offended by the NYT doing this, this is the same sidestepping of the issue that you see with Taiwan which is just a "self-governing island claimed by the mainland". I guarantee people there are well aware that Bandera is not an alleged Nazi just like they know Taiwan's own constitution says it's part of China. They're just interpreting it in a way that doesn't damage the West and its liberalism. Meaning, the West recognizes Bandera as a Nazi collaborator but maybe not the historic Soviet/Russian idea of collaborator.
Keep in mind this is just part of a kind of ideological fragility that's coming into play often these days. The #1 weakness that is the concern here is the penchant for liberal contradictions to be used against liberalism by its enemies. This sensitivity was developed a lot during the Cold War. Meaning, this has nothing to do with Bandera and his victims but what some Westoid is struggling with regarding history and how much, beyond a certain point, their system polarizes history in democratic ways. They fear democracy undoing itself by instead leading history to a very undemocratic contradiction like colonialism rather than being the most resilient system which overcomes such things. They're functionally blind to the crisis of globalization because a lot of it is democracy contradicting itself yet Westoids are eager to fight out its antagonisms. It doesn't represent the world, it doesn't even represent all of Ukraine, and that empowered Russia to reject the West's unilaterally asserted international or democratic mandate to unite Ukraine. They could instead challenge it as NATO expansion coming to threaten rebellious regions of nationalist Ukraine. As a result, any contradiction in democracy has to be lied about because it can never be what actually polarizes us. It's always the preceding conflict between democracy and another form of government, but capitalism develops over time to erode this idealist division of the world.
pic not rel
>>576425I disagree. they rationalize that bander-ack is innocuous as Taiwan is not part of China the same way they believe those things.
you have to bring people that believe these things to have them writing the propaganda very convincingly, or else it will have cracks and could be weak.
>>576321>>576294>>576318the idea was to remember all states of Russia state, but seems everyone was not that happy that other flags weren't included, such as the "grand-ducal" flag with the
Savior (picrel).
>>576252People focus on how the west denies Bandera worship, but even that is anchoring the conversation far from where it should be, because there are tons of openly-revered nazi collaborators
besides Bandera in West Ukraine
>>576427Yup! That's it.
>virgin Ukrop wehraboos LARPing as soldiers from 1944vs
>chad Russian sovietboos LARPing as soldiers from 1944 >>576443>Any artillery nowadays is an "anti-tank gun"Not really. Anti-tank guns work by being pointed
at the tank. Artillery works by lobbing shells.
You'll notice anti-tank guns have that shield, to protect the crew from small arms fire, meaning that they are meant to be deployed where they get in contact with infantry. Artillery is way behind the front, and it has Anti-Aircraft protection, but not small arms protection.
>>576444Probably has to do with how many go into a typical unit
IIRC Versailles numbers were similarly autistic
>>576457mfw the deranged libs have gone from
>"Russia is East Ukraine! China is West Taiwan!" to
<"NATO is West Ukraine!" >>576451Is it me or is that vehicle pile got bigger
again?
>>576466Definitely looks bigger to me too chief
Swear the first time I saw the pile up there were less and wider gaps
>>576477nah the west and their coerced allies aren't ready to demonize the ukrainian nazis,
yet. it won't be Putin, btw.
>>576482Well they didn't try so much as succeed
Unfortunately for us the rot began with Kruschev not actually reading the
Economic Problems and cancelling tractor sharing and artels
>>576385>2050 can become 2100China is already Socialist the '2050' goal is that of modernization.
>how can the USSR be claimed to be socialistThe Soviet Union had access to its own World System so being cut off from the global economy wasnt an instantaneous death sentence for its nation economy, although it later ran into major problems in the '80s.
>>576386Zhou Enlai was one who first proposed to get rid of that, not Deng.
>>576387>Socialism was possible 100 years ago, it's possible now. Yes it is 'possible' to cut your self off from the world economy in order to larp as lower stage Communism, but your country will fall behind and be destroyed. When Marx and Engels talked about achieving full lower stage Communism they thought of it being birthed from the most powerful and developed Capitalist countries (UK,USA,Germany,France, etc), thus they didnt account the fact that Socialism would have to contend with an Imperialist world system that will stop at nothing to destroy Communism. Socialism must be superior to Capitalism, if it isnt it wont survive..
https://twitter.com/johnnyjmils/status/1670073019966926849journo talks to civs in mariupol
nafoid butthurt aplenty in the comments
>>576492>Candace Rondeaux is the Senior Director for the Future Frontlines program at New America, an open-source public intelligence service for next generation security and democratic resilience. She also directs the Planetary Politics initiative, a cross-disciplinary program that aims to find solutions to the wicked problems posed by digitization and decarbonization in a multipolar world.
>Rondeaux is also a professor of practice with the Center on the Future of War at Arizona State University and a faculty affiliate with ASU’s Melikian Center for Russian, Eurasian and East European Studies. She is also lecturer and instructor in security studies at George Washington University and Tulane University. She has covered the rise of the Wagner Group since 2018, traveling to Ukraine and other hotspots frequently for field research. Fluent in Russian, she has testified in Congress on Russia’s strategic use of irregular paramilitaries around the world. Prior to joining New America, she led the RESOLVE Network for the U.S. Institute of Peace, a global research consortium on conflict and violent extremism. She served as a strategic adviser for the Lessons Learned Program at the U.S. Special Inspector General for Afghanistan, where she helped lay the foundations for one of the most comprehensive archives of interviews with decision makers on America’s longest war. She has covered political violence and armed conflicts around the world, including in Afghanistan and Pakistan where she covered the conflict there as bureau chief for the Washington Post and senior analyst for the International Crisis Group in Kabul for five years.
>An award-winning investigative journalist, Rondeaux started her reporting career by covering cops, courts, and crises as a staff reporter for the Post, St. Petersburg Times, New York Daily News, and New York Observer. A regular contributor to the Intercept, Daily Beast, and World Politics Review, she was part of the Pulitzer Prize–winning team at the Washington Post that covered the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007. She started her career in book publishing in New York, handling translations and supporting global rights management for Franklin & Siegal Associates and HarperCollins. She holds a B.A. in Russian Area Studies from Sarah Lawrence College, an M.A. in Journalism from New York University, and a M.P.P. in International Affairs from Princeton University.soooo, a glowie.
>>576492>>576498>Candace Rondeaux is the Senior Director for the Future Frontlines program at New America<As of 2017, the New America had net assets of $26,788,098.[1] Top donors to the organization in 2021 included the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Bloomberg Philanthropies, Ford Foundation, Rockefeller Foundation, and United States Department of State.>Prior to joining New America, she led the RESOLVE Network for the U.S. Institute of Peace, a global research consortium on conflict and violent extremism. <The United States Institute of Peace (USIP) is an American federal institution … USIP was established in 1984 by congressional legislation signed into law by President Ronald Reagan.>She served as a strategic adviser for … the U.S. Special Inspector General for Afghanistan>in Afghanistan and Pakistan … she covered the conflict there as bureau chief for the Washington Post and senior analyst>senior analyst for the International Crisis Group in Kabul for five years<The Swedish ONG Transnational Foundation for Peace and Future Research alleged in 2005 that the ICG board of directors' had close ties to Western governments, a lack of independent scholars, and an absence of an objective standard theoretical framework.GLOW LEVEL OFF THE SCALE
>>576516>wut happen to the ukraine if things keep going in this tragic farcical railroadSad
So many chances for this to have been avoided
So much thrown away for the Burger Reich and perfidious Albion
Makes a person contemplate whether they'd hit the red button and nuke washington and london if they had it in front of it
>>576516that Nato summit is July 11-12, so they probably have to go full out before that.
realistically, they've lost already.
>>576530>It hasn't startedMacron said it started a few days ago, so I don't think the West is going to indulge Ukraine's bullshit. The West wants results.
On the other hand, I think the whole "West will soon pull support" thing is an op.
>>576539>Support won't get pulled. Westoids have shown an absolute inability to cut their losses throughout history.I think that Ukraine is too important as a border/transit state and US handle on Europe to let it go. If it really was about partitioning Europe for themselves, then the USA dropping Ukraine or letting it fall into the European NATO to deal with, it woudl be giving up a bargaining chip and economic interests overturning US dictates. And this seems specially relevant if the USA wants to turn to China because that surely would include big demands of European trade as well.
Also I think Ukraine's new government is useful to keep around as virtuous rightoids to center when it comes the time to frame something as explicitly anti-socialist/communist.
>>576363>Reactionary right wing nationalist government create reactionary right wing policies>b-but critical support guiseLet this be a reminder that the only critical support you should offer are to the nations/countries/movements that genuinely want a socialist government.
Save your "critical" support for them.
Thoughts on this blog?
<SITREP 6/15/23: Kakhovka Powerplay Heats Up as AFU Readies For Round 2https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/sitrep-61523-kakhovka-powerplay-heats>>576363Is it banning HRT? Otherwise, the clear anti-LGBT framing aside, it seems pretty reasonable to have sex reassignment surgery require adulthood.
>>576554Difference here is that it's not a NATO play not panning out, like Syria, it's a NATO enemy
actively fighting back and defying them. This cannot stand.
>>5765671. Palestine actually has a communist movement.
2. Russia isn't being genocided by Ukraine, wheras Palestine and Yemen are being actively genocided by imperialist/ neo-colonial governments.
3. Pretty sure Palestine or Yemen suffers from oligarchs who are turning a profit because of this war.
Nice false equivalence.
>>576571>In the modern day, we would understand that progressive Russia is dealing a blow to the reactionary and dwindling western powers. >New social order not dependent on the hegemony of the United StatesGermany is making bang for their back by continuing to do trade deals with Russia, and Russia's invasion has only emboldened other European members to join NATO. While it can be said to strike a blow against the US and hell even the UK, other imperialist powers within western Europe have benfitted from the war. The bourgoise are only progressive in so far that they are made subservient to a socialist government, otherwise as Lenin said (if you actually did read them) they will inevitably serve their own interest. Russia has no interest in being a progressive force, but rather an oppositional one to challenge US hegemony. It brings nothing but the continuation of international capitalism, only one in which the US won't have a monopoly on- which as we know is not a garuntee of the emergence of socialism. This is petty campism and you know it.
And if what is quoted by Lenin is within context, then surprise surprise, Lenin was wrong. The national bourgoise are not to be trusted and they must be brought to heel to serve a socialist movement.
To say only a DotP can be supported isn't a cop-out, it's actually to hold to your principles and realise that this is a bullshit capitalist war which has resulted in neither the advancement of the working class, but rather the bourgoise growing in wealth while thousands of people are killed and displaced from their homes.
>>576575Secondly, in regards to homophobia- this doesn't mean that two wrongs ought to make a right. You can call out the Russian government for what it does to its civillians, but that doesn't mean that the civillians themselves deserve genocide or any Russian for that matter.
There is a clear power imbalance between Palestine and Russia, a clear difference in conflict, and a clear difference in history and you know it
>>5765751. Palestine has no more of a communist movemnet than Russia
2. Yes they are and what do you think would happen if Ukronazis entered the Donbass or Crimea?
3. Not even sure what you are trying to say here because it is so poorly written
>>576592Well I kinda think invading Finland was wrong, as for the other two, Poland was harm reduction, and Tibet was a feudalist shithole that was much better off after being invaded. If the people of these countries would be better off if the countries oppressing them won then we should support the invading country but obviously that's not the case in Palestine or Yemen.
>>576596Wasn't it one of them who proposed the latest gay panic bill?
>>576588Worth noting here that Putin dragged his heels and did everything to avoid this confrontation short of curling up at Biden's feet in a gimp suit
It was in fact a motion by the communist opposition to recognise the Donbass People's republics as they were coming under attack by the Kievan regimes literal Nazi forces that forced Putin's hand
The political damage a big giant sized Odessa incident style happening right on the Russian border when the communists had recognised the republics left him no choice
It's actually hilarious that Burgers carry on about the Putin dictatorship
He's the motherfucking Angela Merkle of Russia and the Russian political system is the one that acts like libs thinks bourgeois representative diplomacy ideally and the burger political system that operates in the liberal stereotype of Russia
>>576603If the USSR had annexed Finland I think I would have supported the winter war more, as is it just seems pretty silly and cynical. Like Finland is evil enough to invade but we also can't be bothered to remove their government.
As for Ukraine, well, I dunno, I kinda think the Russian and Ukrainian governments are as bad as each other. Maybe the Ukrainian is marginally worse but not sure this war is worth it on that basis alone.
>>576607>Russian political system is the one that acts like libs thinks bourgeois representative diplomacy ideally*closer to how libs
*operates idealy
>>576579See, that's what im talking about, though I hardly see how this compares to russia as they seek to maintain their oligarchs in power.
>>576584>I think at the end of the day you need to just admit that your analysis is just infantile Yemen and Palestine are good because they are small and Russia is bad because they are good.I've yet to see Palestine engage in acts of imperialism and supression of ethnic minorities like the Russian Federation has- including but not limited to their supression of the Chechneans or Sami people.
>>576581
>1. Palestine has no more of a communist movemnet than Russiahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine
>2. Yes they are and what do you think would happen if Ukronazis entered the Donbass or Crimea?Ethnic Russians of seperatist republics, not civillians of the Russian government. The Ukraine was bombing seperatist republics who were rightfuly resisting a US backed coup. But as I stated, this has now lead to Russia co-opting a national liberation movement. In 2014, The Ukraine didn't go out of its way to launch an invasion into Russia and start killing their civillians.
3. Not even sure what you are trying to say here because it is so poorly written
Im trying to say that this war won't bring about socialism, but rather just build up and maintain capitalism- albeit one without the US- that is if Russia wins this war and NATO is crippled.
Furthermore
Neither Palestine nor Yemen have gotten to the point of being a major capitalist power, or one that exterts and element of hegemony. And you have the audacity to call me infantile.
>>576613>In 2014, The Ukraine didn't go out of its way to launch an invasion into Russia and start killing their civillians.So?
Literal Nazis on this side of the border or that side doing literal Nazi things with the illegitimate burger puppet regime's full support and backing
What is distinction?
>>576617><guys we must support governments that knowingly repress and neuter socialist orgs and working class movements and benefit oligarchs…. because they're fighting the other government knowingly represses and neuter socialist orgs and working class movements and benefits oligarchs… because… WeLL JuST bECaUsE ok You uLtraThe premise of your argument is contested →
>>576607You've got to defend your premise here before furthering your logic based on this premise
>>576613Russia in no way suppresses the Chechen people. The Chechen Republic is basically autonomous within the Russian Federation. While the Chechen wars were horrible. The 2nd Chechen War occurred because US/SA/Israelis ensured that the salafi faction won power in Chechnya and invaded Dagestan (after Russia gave them de facto independence following the first war). When the Russians won, they gave pretty much full autonomy to Chechnya and the Chechens purged the Salafists and returned to their traditional sufi ways.
As for Sami people, I don't know much about them but I used to live in the Mari El Republic (which is not autonomous and is ruled over by Russians, to be fair it is over half Russian) and don't really think Russia suppressed them in any way and more just didn't give a shit about their culture (as opposed to the Soviet Union who nurtured their culture). I don't think that's right thing to do, but I fail to see how Russia suppresses them any more than say the Kurds have suppressed their ethnic minorities. Obviously, I should reiterate that in every way this is inferior to the Soviet model but again when you are comparing them to non-socialist countries, this is a completely moot point
>>576635Heh, some Russian antiwar leftists have apparently given up on trying to paint Russia as the imperialist in the light of mounting evidence that it didn't prepare for nor want the SMO, and are instead trying to push the narrative that it's a proxy war between the US and China with Russia as China's vassal.
Of course if that was the case I'd be even more Z.
>China is waiting for Russia to weaken itself so it can collect its debts in the form of Siberia!Good, I'll be there for my Chinese passport.
>>576626>the communist party made him do it Yes, Im sure the fact that the DPR and LPR repressed their respected communist parties and instead have parties that are more Pro-Russia than Pro-Communist has nothing to do with it.
>>576630>Russia in no way suppresses the Chechen people. Stopped reading there. You fully well knew what the first Chechen wars were about.
>But Russia grants the chechnens their own autonomous republic While being part of the Russian federation and only acting within the guidelines that the Russian federation serves them- they are not equals to the Russian government. I may as well say Australia doesn't currently repress indigenous Australians because we have the voice/ indigenous members in parliament.
>>576635>one country is allied with the largest socialist country in the worldSaid socialist country also does trade deals with Saudi Arabia which knowingly genocides yemeni people, alongside advocating a two state solution to Palestine- something which most Palestinians reject.
>one country is allied with the country who's greatest goal is to destroy the largest socialist country in the world.A socialist country which currently has more economic soft power if not equal to the united states. The US is still willing to do trade deals with China, and sees it as an economic competitor- China itself has yet to contribute anything meanigful to the death of international capitalism other than continuing to do trade deals with socialist countries that the US has embargo'd, offering them financial support, but by no means a meaningful way to overall end the embargo. Now are there reasons for it that are out of China's control- of course, but a spade is still a spade.
>also forgot to mention the second country is also fascist, worships nazis, actively stated their goal is the eradication of russians from their country and made it literally illegal to join a unionAs opposed to a country that's getting it's philosophical underpinnings from Dugin. Since when do two wrongs make a right?
><damn these still seem exactly the same to me>"pathetic" indeed<I'm not owned, i'm not owned >>576644>As opposed to a country that's getting it's philosophical underpinnings from Dugin. Since when do two wrongs make a right? I don't think highly of ziggers and Cucktin, but they aren't getting any inspiration from Dugin.
He is pretty irrelevant from a philosophical POV, he just edge-coated nationalistic Kremlin talking points lately.
So the relation is reverse, the government sets the tone and Dugin repeats with his own spin.
>>576642hrrrm
>>576640My brother in Marx do you even know about the Odessa incident?
>>576622Catastrophic Ukrainian losses in pyatixatki although they have captured the village
Some kind of Russian ammo depot was just destroyed in Kherson oblast, supposedly by a Ukrainian air force? Drones perhaps?
>>576646>ur anti-china if you point out policies it's currenlty engaged in ok, bitch.
>>576654>calling every single palestinian a reactionary right wing nationalist<in spite of evidence provided of a communist movment that's fighting israelok, lad.
>>576662Russia has a communist movement as well but you were happy to throw them under the bus.
Also, what exactly is the Palestinian communist movements stance on LGBT issues?
>>576668>u-ur an ultraMeaningless buzzword. Cope.
>>576664Im fully aware of the Odessa incident, and hell i've touched on it- that doesn't stop the fact that the LPR and DPR are now serving as proxies for Russian policy, after having their national liberation movements co-opted by them.
>>5766661. Except i didn't.
2. The communist party was right in pointing out the sovereignty of the LPR and DPR but as i said- the LPR and DPR have notably thrown their own communist movements under the bus.
>Also, what exactly is the Palestinian communist movements stance on LGBT issues?I wouldn't know as i've yet to see any sources on them. And if they were anti-LGBTQ that's certainly a problem, but that's more deserving of critical support as opposed to a bunch of russian nationalists.
>>576679(me)
Besides, a communist movement has a better chance of actually discovering and coming to the conclusion that LGBTQ people aren't deragned/ corrupted bourgoise decadence.
the DDR and Cuba being prime examples- hell even China allows for gender reassignment surgery in particular provinces.
>>576679>meaningless buzzwordNope, it describes retards like you pretty well. You're not interested in a proletarian revolution, you're not interested in dislodging global American hegemony, you just want to sit on a morally high pedestal of your own making whilst accepting the global dominance of the US because "at least it's not X or Y".
Frankly I don't even care if Russia, Iran or any other non-western country is bad, the US is still at least ten times worse and the American state needs to be destroyed first and foremost.
There is no justice in this world until the USA as we know it is dead and buried.
>>576679>1. Except i didn't. In
>>576545 you said people shouldn't critically support Russia because reactionaries currently hold power. I hate to break it to you but in Palestine religious reactionaries hold more power than they do in Russia.
Seems like you just wanted to play a game of both sides while still pretending to support Palestine.
>I wouldn't know as i've yet to see any sources on them. And if they were anti-LGBTQ that's certainly a problem, but that's more deserving of critical support as opposed to a bunch of russian nationalists.<calling every single Russian a reactionary right wing nationalist >>576706MORE WOMAN OLIGARCHS
PUTIN SHOULD HAVE SAT HIS ASS DOWN AND LISTENED
>>576689>In >>576545 you said people shouldn't critically support Russia because reactionaries currently hold power.This whole thread is filled to the brim with people sucking off Cucktin, a conservative politician who isn't even a good reactionary.
Critical support for Russia is either Russia circlejerking or hoping for beneficial effects anywhere else but Russia.
A Russian victory in Ukraine will cement reactionary power in Russia well into the distant future. A Russian defeat would just result in another reactionary taking it's place.
>>576716Russian victory = NATO defeat
It's really that simple
>>576720>>literally the term Cucktin is used more than his actual nameYeah, this is what happens when reality doesn't live up to the insane strongman politician propaganda.
They say Cucktin because they probably expected him to be the reincarnation of Attila, Stalin and Hannibal at once and do more le based and le redpilled stuff.
>>576736anarch
a signals femininity. and yes, i know what these people and their ideology are, I have seen them wreck multiple organizations
>>576748>>576746>>576744>>576738Found the Cucktinists. Anglo cruise missiles hit a large ammo dump and possibly another base in the last 24 hours, but Cucktin still delivered zero of the promised direct repercussions against the eternal Albion.
Cucktin drew a red line at delivering lethal aid to Ukraine, which devolved to a red line against artillery, tanks, missiles and finally planes.
There is no sane reason why one should stan this moron.
>>576697>China literally negotiated peace in Yemen and between Iran and Saudi ArabiaI may just be too cynical, but I read these "peace negotiations" as "non aligned" concession hedging than settling disputes. It just so happens that the US wants war and China wants trade. Which is a good start, but it's still a literal bid for peace, which can just as well be outbid.
>>576728I know it's a lib classic, but it's still funny when Putin says something anti-LGBT sounding, after doing male model photoshoots and playing the stoic teetotaler strongman. Like, it's ironic in general when these figures (western included), themselves completely above laws or taboos comment on virtue, law or values. But come on, your public persona is just fitter, gayer, Steve Seagal.
>>576716>This whole thread is filled to the brim with people sucking off CucktinAs has been established already, no it isn't. Even when people here thought Cucktin was more competent there wasn't much (unironic) admiration of the man, just the hope that he would be an effective foil to NATO and Ukro-Nazis.
>Critical support for Russia is either Russia circlejerking or hoping for beneficial effects anywhere else but Russia.Nope, we were just talking about the communist movement in Russia. I regularly express the hope that Cucktin stalling the war might give the CPRF or other Russian communists a chance at taking power.
>A Russian victory in Ukraine will cement reactionary power in Russia well into the distant future. A Russian defeat would just result in another reactionary taking it's place.So many motherfuckers even dumber than Trotsky on this issue.
>>576708>>576710>>576714>>576718>>576724way to prove my point, boys =-/
>>576732>leftist politically incorrectwhat you're doing is
rightist politically incorrect.
leftist politically incorrect is pic related. =-) happy to help you understand
>>576742you're overthinking it sweetie. men can and should be feminists. all real communists are also feminists. ☭☭☭☭☭
>>576773>LGBT derail>>1502121>topless slut derailbroads,
shushthe menfolk are talking
>>576775reactionaries often hide behind "humor," honey.
>r/socialism memes from 2015i see imageboards are your safe space and material from outside the edgy milieu of imageboards is offensive to your snowflake feelings
>>576781>realistically what do you want him to do?What about actually increasing his efforts in
fighting the Ukrainian army? Controversial, I know. Cucktin-defenders like tankposter will immediately kick and scream. They will pull out the strawmen that increasing effort actually means nuking the place or bombing civilians, but, no, you can simply increase your regular war effort, Cucktin. It was hinted several times that a new invasion from a different direction was an option to keep the Ukrops on their feet, but nothing ever happened.
>>576781>I agree Putin is a cuck but realistically what do you want him to do? He gave nukes to Belarus and they still don't careBasically anything that isn't symbolism at this point.
Even "giving" nukes to Belarus is just symbolism. They're still Russian. Russian nukes also exist in international waters of the Atlantic and Pacific ocean. Are the US goong to just nuke the whales if Russia launches a nuclear missile from the Atlantic?
Are they just nuking Belarus if a Russian nuke starts from there?
The physical location of nukes is far secondary to the ownership.
>>576809it's very easy to turn the flag off, sweetie. sorry i've triggered you =-)
>>576797no. you shush.
>>576799i am in favor of the global south crushing the global north. it's a shame that p00tin is the tip of the spear, but i accept it
>>576818sweetie, i never criticized russia. i criticized the misogyny of this thread. =-)
the russian people have a proud history of countering misogyny faster than their european counterparts
>>576810>more Russian soldiers need to die so I can see colours change on my Telegram mapssee, exactly the strawmen I'm talking about. thank you for proving my point in mere seconds after I posted. grinding thousands of your own troops to pulp because you're too cucked for a quick victory that your armed forces are obviously capable of is simply pathetic.
>>576828>it doesn't matter that thousands of Ukronazis and billions in NATO equipment are being liquidated, I need my fast victory so I can post memes on the internethuh, you were just concern trolling about Russian losses, but now they're suddenly a-ok, just minutes later. It seems that criticism of Cucktin's cuck behaviour and his obvious sympathies for the west that stop him from doing what he knows is necessary make you upset - why is that?
>>576844compensating =-)
>>576846here's some soviet genderpol for you
>>576848>waaaaaa Russia didn't take Kiev in 2 weeks and now I look stupid in front of my liberal friends waaaaaaaaCite where I said that.
Cucktins own plan was swift victory but in his foolishness and subconcious adoration of the West
he had no backup plan >>576861I didn't make it I just saved it, but yes I do have a sentimental attachment to it
Here's one that predates the /pol/ boardsplit and the /lit/ hejira
>>576871It's Cucktin and not Putler because Putin isn't even acknowledging his enemies as what they are.
It's Cucktin because he is some bureaucrat weirdo that doesn't even micromanage his army and generals.
Also Cucktin because he would never have the balls to swallow the KCN and off himself with a bullet.
>>576900>The biggest liberal butthurt online always comes when Ukrops are getting their shit packed in contrary to delusional Western expectationsso
always? =-)
>>576900It's just this thread moving up in the catalog and people from the rest of the board come visit.
Happens on all boards, especially 4chan when they scream pol or reddit, it is just gnothi seauton.
>>576914i am neither a ukrop nor a radlib nor
the anfem anon =-) i'm just a broad here to annoy you
>>576926Lolw
Remember when this thread was shitting Prigozhin for complaining about lack of ammo? I wager that something similar happened with NAFOids. Armchair generals are truly something
>>576941The problem with Iron Felix wasn't that he was wrong but that Cucktin broke his brain and he couldn't stop rage posting.
>>576946>Remember when this thread was shitting Prigozhin for complaining about lack of ammo?Wasn't he at one point demanding more ammo just for Wagner than Russia had been using across the whole front? I'm just an armchair historian but frontline commanders have never not complained about not enough arty.
>>576956I shook my magic 8 ball
It told me
Very doubtful. >>576952>he couldn't stop rage posting.Which was completely justified.
>Wasn't he at one point demanding more ammo just for Wagner than Russia had been using across the whole front?Why would the most intense battle not require enormous amounts of firepower? Why is trying to preserve manpower by trying to compensate with artillery a bad thing? Why does that make him a whiny complainer? Why do you compare him to regular commanders, not acknowledging that a PMC needs to stay attractive and can not senselessly waste lives, like the other retarded commanders can?
https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/69780Two weeks after the start of the counter-offensive, Ukraine suspends attacks due to "huge losses", writes the Wall Street Journal.
Ukrainian forces have largely halted their advance while commanders take stock of the past two weeks and analyze ways to break through Russian lines without massive casualties.
Journalists write that Russian aviation was able to strike at Ukrainian armored columns with Western models of equipment and stop several attacks.
Ukrainian officials "maintain an optimistic tone" and say their forces have moved forward on a number of fronts.
But, according to the newspaper, these advances "so far do not pose a direct threat to the main lines of defense of Russia, built in a few months in the Zaporozhye and Donetsk regions."
>>576971https://t.me/mangopress/15120According to Alexander Mercouris at the Duran, citing reports from anonymous sources in the White House; Zelensky himself personally called US secretary of defence, General Milley, and asked for “permission” to call off the Counter offensive, asking for more weapons and stating that the losses already incurred were “unsustainable”.
According to Mercouris’ sources, Milley reacted to this suggestion with blind rage, and told Zelensky that the offensive must go on with the weapons already supplied.
Seems as though the US Nazi Death Empire is growing tired of its expensive Puppet’s constant requests for billions of dollars more in weapons.
(Note: we cannot attest to the veracity of Mr. Mercouris’ source).
>>576963>Why would the most intense battle not require enormous amounts of firepower?Bakhmut was not Stalingrad or Berlin. Despite the declaration by some here it was obviously not the last gasp of the AFU.
>Why is trying to preserve manpower by trying to compensate with artillery a bad thing?Who said it was? The question was whether Wagner deserved the entire allocation of artillery and other sectors should be left without.
>Why does that make him a whiny complainer?Wanting the entire artillery allocation for a war on just your sector, and publicly ranting about it, is what made him a whiny complainer.
>Why do you compare him to regular commanders, not acknowledging that a PMC needs to stay attractive and can not senselessly waste lives, like the other retarded commanders can?So Wagner should get more arty to protect their mercs and Russian army conscripts should pay for it with their blood?
>>576982As I said before frontline commanders always want more. That doesn't mean supplying more is possible or sustainable. The Soviet stockpiles were deep but not endless.
I was sympathetic to Prigozhin's complaints until I saw his demands were for more arty than was being expended across the whole front.
>>576988If it's just down to Wagner then Russia has already lost. One unit can't be the firefighters forever.
>>576978>Bakhmut was not Stalingrad or BerlinThe most intense battle of
this war you dishonest retard.
>obviously not the last gasp of the AFUtrue, but obviously important to them to be trapped in a meatgrinder.
>whether Wagner deserved the entire allocation of artillery and other sectors should be left withoutliterally nobody claimed that
>Wanting the entire artillery allocation for a war on just your sector,again, made up. resource allocation is obviously a problem in Cucktin's pathetic effort, as the Kharkov offensive could not be stopped, even with the artillery the other sectors had, as you claim.
>So Wagner should get more arty to protect their mercsYes.
>and Russian army conscripts should pay for it with their blood?who claimed that, you dishonest retard. they should receive proper support, too. the Russian army is obviously capable of it with their insane soviet stockpiles. oh and by the way, they paid in blood anyway not only because of Cucktin's refusal to pursue victory but also because of their retarded commanders
who did not complain and simply sent them against the Ukrop lines to die. complaining is good.
>>576706now, now…
having a vagina grants you the right to interrupt the national anthem?
either way, he would have you hushed if you had a pennis. don't pat yourself on the back for your troll post.
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