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Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1748001985652.png (129.76 KB, 973x829, rider1.png)

 

Has anyone else noticed when some people call for the abolition of gender (which is a position I sympathise with even though it is ultra-leftist to expect society to do away with it right now) just seem to be asking for all femininity to be erased? Like when people, and I'm assuming its mostly men trans or cis, say that we need to stop having gender, they also say long hair and pretty clothes need to be banned, and everyone should just be strong and masculine. It feels not many people are expecting gender abolition to cause everyone to become feminine. Idk its interesting hearing about this. I'm reminded of the anime Simoune where the baddies are all transmasc industrialists (I did support them when I watched it because they were historically progressive industrialists). That's basically a vision of gender abolition actually being women abolition. When you talk to lots of people you will hear this. Just ask King Lear what he thinks.

>>1968
Another "making up people to get mad at" thread.

>>1968
>they also say long hair and pretty clothes need to be banned, and everyone should just be strong and masculine.
I have never heard a gender abolitionist say this nonsense and I doubt you have either. When I and the folks I fucks with say abolish gender we mean that there is nothing inherently masculine or feminine about wearing a dress vs pants. It's all just fabric bereft of inherent meaning, wear whatever makes you happy and/or comfortable.

>>1971
I've literally seen these "everyone should wear cargo shorts and a tee" people on leftypol. It's also inherent in the whig history framing of the 20th "emancipation" of women, which, economic concessions aside, boils down to being allowed to adopt symbols of male power and engage with men as social transvestites. After a lifetime of stunting their emotional capacity and aesthetics sensibilities, most men simply can't relate to the social experience of women. Faced with the inability to see women as universal human beings outside their gender category, their reflex is to exorcise the pretty and frivolous things fueling their unconscious misogyny.

>>1972
>I've literally seen these "everyone should wear cargo shorts and a tee" people on leftypol
There's like, one random schizo that has a hate-boner for fashion and models who thinks like this. It's safe to ignore them, they will leave no lasting impact upon society.

It only feels like it's a call to erase femininity because you're a girl lol.
You are freaking out in an identical way to how frat bros freak out about gender abolitionists trying to take away their masculinity and soy-ify them.

>>1973
There was also this thread a long time ago, pre-split .org i think, where i argued for skirts on the basis of comfort, sizing and fabric use, referencing their historical popularity in asia and the middle east. Basically everyone dunked on me, saying "blue collar workers wear pants and they're easy to mass produced, therefore everyone should just wear pants" and accusing me of taylorism. I wasn't even transhumanisting at the time and just advocated for gender-neutral skirts, so i assume these anons must have really hated the feminine association.

>>1975
I'm sure there are a lot of dudes on here with latent homophobia for sure. But you're right - skirts in warm climates make way more sense than pants. I've worn a dress, the breeze on one's nuts is cozy as hell.

It's Because being a man is the best. Especially if you're a straight man. I mean I'm not getting the best experience out of it but I'd much rather be what I am than a woman or gay man

>>1971
>It's all just fabric bereft of inherent meaning,
>wear whatever makes you happy and/or comfortable.
these two don't follow. what makes you happy and/or comfortable is socially defined, even if the fabric is just a fabric it has the inherent meaning you have been socialized into. a chair is just a chair but it has inherent value because it circulates as a commodity within society

the only way to truly abolish gender is to socialize the same sense of fashion regardless of your genitals. so yes, cargo shorts and short sleeve shirts for everyone, with rectangular cuts that hide rather than highlight the body shape. you probably have many pseudo-intellectual vague platitudes against this very practical and achievable attitude but I literally do not care because you don't have a realistic or concrete alternative so my approach will always prevail over yours

>>1978
>rectangular cuts that hide rather than highlight the body shape
So people should stop taking care of their appearance. Why do you think fashion should change and not its meaning? If patriarchy and the associated cultural attitudes are abolished, this is very much an achievable goal.

>>1978
>a chair is just a chair but it has inherent value because it circulates as a commodity within society
That value is not inherent to the chair, that value is derived from its status as a commodity.

>what makes you happy and/or comfortable is socially defined

Not entirely. Wearing a puffer jacket in hot weather will never be comfortable.

>the only way to truly abolish gender is to socialize the same sense of fashion regardless of your genitals.

You're right that socializing the next generation to believe differently than we do is the only way to abolish gender but you're wrong that the only viable socialization is towards the exact same uniform. It would be just as feasible to socialize kids to understand that they can wear whatever they're drawn to for whatever reason they please.

Your conception of fashion is locked into a Western frame.

>>1968
gender abolitionism is just cypto transphobia pushed by cis straightoid breeders that think gender is just a social construct and a thing you can just opt out of

>>2036
>gender abolitionism is just cypto transphobia
You would guess that with all the real persecution trans people experience they wouldnt have to make shit up, yet here we are.

>>1975
>so i assume
Have you ever considered not being retarded and not making massive vibes-based generalizations based on two not-even-loosely-connected posts from "a long time ago"?
No you haven't because you're a nametard.

>>2042
>namefag
lol! newfag
>two not-even-loosely-connected posts
it was an entire thread and i think i also got flak for posting about gender-neutral skirts on bunkerchan, though don't quote me on that

>>1968
>I did support them when I watched it
lol

>>2041
nah this is a well known fact many terfs are also gender abolitionist

no one says that actually.

NGL kind of true. A lot of people can't get over the psychic hurdle of normal = masculine and hide it behind seemingly progressive language. Though a lot of androgyny can lean towards what's considered feminine.

>>2056
it's not a "psychic hurdle", there is no revolution of the self, you have to confront things as they exist in society, not revert to consumer politics

>>2060
>you have to confront things as they exist in society
yeah technology is grinding away the differences on both sides of the gender aisle

>>1968
>it is ultra-leftist to expect society to do away with it right now
this is the same as the acceleration debate. people think marx was an accelerationist or gender abolitionist but he did not say that people should accelerate contradictions or abolish gender he said that as technology increases contradictions increase and the frequency of crisis increases, and that many things we thought were solid will melt away into air exposing what was really beneath them. its not something you do, at least not directly, just like you cant "do communism". social relations change as a byproduct of increasing the material forces of production. you dont get to pick what happens but its likely that the gendered division of mankind will end up on the side of the default, which is man, just like it is white. of course when woman becomes man it will cease to have meaning just as if black were to become white. you dont have to have "men" do the heavy lifting if everyone who lifts things uses remote mech drones, for example.

>>2068
>the gendered division of mankind will end up on the side of the default, which is man
Yet that's clearly not what's happening right now. Women may have made huge strides towards equal rights and participation in the labor market, my mom who grew up in the 70s and 80s might be a bit "boyish", but since then we have clearly entered an era where gender expression and relations are intensifying, not fading away. What has furter been untouched is the social division, which i can hardly see give way to an universalization of the non-comittal bro culture now common among men, not the least because men themselves crave the deeper emotional connections they themselves can potentially get from a woman.

>>2069
>participation in the labor market
yeah thats what i mean. having a job used to be a man thing now it doesn't matter, now both genders do what "men" do

>>2070
>having a job used to be a man thing
Not exactly, proletarian women just aren't as much of an underpaid labor force as they used to be, at least in the imperial core. Gender remains alive and well in other forms though, because the more intense economic exploitation constitutes only the most readily apparent part. Thus the abolition of gender doesn't logically follow from the dissolution of difference in the labor market, it doesn't stem from the inherent bourgeois need for an underclass, rather the place in the family structure women are groomed into, with all of the reproductive and emotional labor it entails.

I don't see gender abolition as asking everyone to be male. For example I'm a cishet male father and to me gender abolition involves me taking on more work that was seen as traditionally "female" like domestic labor. In my house I do the laundry, I cook the dinners, I wash the dishes, and I change the diapers. To me that's gender abolition.

>>1968
Capitalism will restrict personal expression (including as it relates to gender and sex) if that is optimal for the production of capital. Even if it is a detriment to the individual.
Corporations restrict female expression more in full time employment, but educational institutions restrict male expression more during k-12 & arguably in higher education.
The restriction is done in different dimensions, i.e. long hair, clothing primarily for women. For men, it looks like lower educational attainment across the board, worse grades, worse attendance, and worse life outcomes.
It's hard for you to fully understand the other side of the aisle here and how men are repressed. It's not quite as obvious as a hair style or skirt length.

>>2076
Hmm, many questions occur in the vast mind

For you:
Are women also unable to establish a deep bond with you due to their inherent limitations?
Would only a male with his medium could touch the deepest tides of your being?
Would you dedicate your life to your male friend in a grim situation ( such as war )? Holding his hand, until death.
Are yuo attracted to males?

File: 1748415282365.png (24.64 KB, 128x128, meh.png)

>>1968
If “biological sex” is dismissed as meaningless or inherently contradictory, and “gender” is fully detached from material embodiment or social function, then what exactly is being transitioned? You can’t cross into a concept you refuse to stabilize.

Fellow transhumanists should stop reading so much philosophy garbo. Rather than addressing social organization of labor and capital, pseuds end up outsourcing liberation to technology or voting with your wallet or what have you.

File: 1750206227719.jpeg (284.77 KB, 952x1374, IMG_4244.jpeg)

I probably fall into this. I’m a masc leaning lesbian that’s gender agnostic and hate traditionally feminine shit. Having a level of forced femininity pushed onto me it’s hard not to see it as oppressive the way many trans women see masculinity as oppressive. I think feminism in the 80s and 90s also have a level of hatred for things feminine because of it being forced alongside toxic gender rolls. Rad fems also fall into this. It’s hard for me not to see it as oppressive and degrading even though logically I know people genuinely want to express them selves in that way.

i gotta break it to youz guys, gender? already abolished, infact it never really existed to begin wtih, now go, be free.

>they also say long hair and pretty clothes need to be banned, and everyone should just be strong and masculine
Imma be honest S poster, I've never ever seen this before. Overall I agree with your position, gender should and hopefully will be abolish, but not within our lifetime and certainly not before the abolition of class society

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>>1968
nah its more like this. feels like all trans spaces have been dominated by enbies cis """spicygenders""" telling trans people how they should behave LOL

Die nazi scum

>>1968
Where do you see this?
Whenever I hear people talk about abolishing gender roles. I usually see anti-masculine rhetoric.
Masculinity is treated as some demonic activity to be exorcised or some modernized spook.

>>2073
This.
It's unfortunate that for all the talk about equality, feminists dismiss male distress in academia as exaggeration.

>>1977
I agree with this. I consider myself a suboptimal male but I don't really see much of a benefit in being a typical female other than having a easier time getting dates especiallg if younger and attractive and more able to to be considered attractive and fashionable. I think in a almost every other being a woman Is inferior at least in my opinion

>>1977
>>2753
I have no respect for these mentalities.
This reads like losers kicking down.

If you think being a woman is inferior, it's because you probably don't respect them as fellow human beings.

Irony is, as a suboptimal male, youd get worse treatment.
You'd have to constantly throw yourself into the meat grinder to get any sort of attention

>>2756
I don't think I'm kicking down I just think it's better to be a guy especially a straight guy compared to women. Honestly I don't think I respect very many humans I find most of us not worthy of respect I don't know how else to put it

>>1968
it's because of westoid brainrot going back to the Greeks where man = active and woman = passive, therefore man = subject and woman = object. the entire project of liberal feminism is not to critique the underlying reasons why patriarchy exists but rather to manage the inequality symptoms it produces, because as with all liberalism, libfem is not capable of understanding the real material causes of anything but only of managing them so that the contradictions don't become so acute that they start to cause a crisis in production (which patriarchy functions as a part of on the micropolitical level of the household and the reproduction of labor). in practice what this results in is almost every feminist project (with the exception of materialist feminism, Marxist feminism, and their offshoots) not having any interest in the actual liberation of women as a class but having a kind of internalized misogyny where being a woman is seen as an inherently abject state, of being objectified by a ruling class of men, and so the solution to this is to simply make everyone functionally a man (a subject).

this is incidentally also why there is a large segment of feminists (again, most feminists arguably) who come up with reasons for either outright hating transfems within a framework of "radical" feminism or backhandedly hating them within liberal feminism (by viewing all trans people as basically doing a kind of permanent drag performance). the idea that someone could choose to be a woman and essentially affirm the class of woman for its own sake doesn't compute with the genealogy of feminist theory that ended up being the most dominant one in the anglosphere and is closer to the materialist feminism of Luce Irigaray and Monique Wittig, particularly Wittig's theory of lesbianism: that a lesbian by choosing to desire women for their own sake and not because of their utility within the reproductive futurist project of the bourgeois heterosexual family form is not really a woman because she chooses to remove herself entirely from the patriarchal power structure and its encodings of desire.

therefore in the final analysis we must conclude that trans women are not really women but rather are, like cis lesbians, something new and better that has the real potential to overcome patriarchy because they the real movement of women as a class abolishing itself much like communism is the real movement of the proletariat abolishing itself.

idk what youre talking about with "forcing everyone to be male", but im convinced that gender abolitionism is just a TERFy radfem talking point that will never actually be implemented and is often used against trans women to argue against sex changes and hormones

Real talk, where is that screenshot from?

>>2759
Good post.

>>1968
I dunno what gender abolition means outside of techno-futuristic regimes of genetic engineering, cybernetic implants, babies grown in tubes kinda shit.

Certain factions of feminists see feminine traits as a slave mentality. I can't find the quote but it's something like: femininity is shit that fucks women up. So that's one reason you see a desire for more androgyny.

If it's just women dressing like men, congrats picrel from early 1900s.

>>2802
It is my character I made in the Airframe Ultra beta (I'm pretty sure the character creator is free anyway)

>>2048
No it's a very common grift for people to tell trans people to basically detransition because "we need to abolish gender" and abolishing gender just means keeping trans people from hrt/transitioning. They basically view trans people as cudgel which will usher in gender liberation if they're just non passing enough

>>2742
How the fuck is this here! How do I keep encountering my Tumblr post in the wild. What the fuck

>>2829
This analysis/view of the world is a symptom of liberalism as a whole. It's in effect lipstick feminism for society. The actual wants and desires of trans people and their material needs are ignored in favor of that person's ideal view of their world.
The ideal view of their world is often one where no men exist or where every trans woman is forced to have a beard because these people are just reactionary liberals

>>2829
>it's a very common grift
first time hearing about it all the abolitionists i know are trans

>>2830
I mean realistically, if a significant part of the population was gender-nonconforming in the strict sense, current gender norms would become obsolete fast and in the last instance the social forces creating dysphoria would disappear. Trans people are a vanishingly small minority existing within the current biological and social context around gender though, so the prospect of creating this scenario is entirely illusory, even if the theyfabs started taking T.

>>2841
I mean maybe? But we don't live in that society do we? We live in one where if a trans woman doesn't pass she's liable to be murdered in the street. Telling trans women to be gender nonconforming is just telling them to expose themselves to being harmed. Even if we did it's not really a society where gender norms don't exist if trans women aren't allowed to make modifications to their body/style that are currently associated with feminity is it?
Ultimately trying to force trans people to be a cudgel to dismantle gender norms for cis people is just stupid. You're going to have to liberate yourselves from the ideas you enforce on yourselves. Trans people do not create the gendered system they just live in it

enbies can just stop being enbies whenever things get uncomfortable for them. a trans person cant do that. i hate this retarded privileged discourse

>>2843
trans people do that all the fucking time, like boymoding, literally every lgbtq has an example of this. shit even people of different races will try to hide it like arab americans telling people theyre italian.


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