/meta/ - Ruthless criticism of all that exists (in leftypol.org)

>>37982
Some characters I vibe with enough to maybe avatar as are kinda sparse for art of them, though I suppose that's an excuse to draw.

>>37917
On it

Retards don't get that it's impossible to have large scale industry with an international division of labor that inherently tends to break down regional barriers while at the same time demanding to live in seclusion where everyone is the same race/ethnicity.

>>37966
>>37958
The irony of invoking science, which refutes (not just disputes but outright refutes) biological race as having any verifiable existence, in order to indulge in racism. Welcome to leftypol, where every Wikipedia-scrolling mouthbreather is a scientist.

>>37992
Can you not turn this thread into an extention of something that should be contianed in the burger general?

>>37826
Leftism includes liberals, it's a bullshit vague arbitrary term unlike communism.

>>37993
? Literally nothing I said is specific to the US.

>>37843
>>37853
You're severely retarded. The privileged position of cis/straight/white/male petit-bourgeois comes from the fact that they are petit-bourgeois, not because they are cis/straight/white/male. Racism is for them a weapon of competition which they utilize, consciously or unconsciously, in order to beat rivals in competitive struggle.

>>37996
>Racism
Also sexism, transphobia, nationalism, etc. You get the point.

>>37974
>"someone else brought up che banned pro rojava posting."

That was me and this isn't dirty laundry this is shit anyone that's been here long enough knows. This is a cop out half measure to sweep issues many people have been bringing up under the rug and wish it away. Funny how when the bunkerchan split happened many of the leftypol mods were fine with posting about it on the front page without taking it to Matrix.

Taking this to meta is a fucking insult and it's obvious that trying to have a dialog with mods about this is a waste of time.

>>37998
Anon, I hear you but even if thats the case I think the OP of this thread was too narrowly tailored anyway for discussion of "many issues" anyway.

>>38000
Did you just hit me with a Ralph Warnock "I see you I hear you"? You should have just said "fuck you It's my site and I will run it into the ground if I wanna". At least then you would have said it with your chest.

>>38001
You are seen. You are heard. You are valid.

>>37998
What's your issue exactly? Is OP angry at rojava posters, at Russia supporters, China supporters, all of the above?

Idk, I'm in favor of baiting to get homophobic, racist, or otherwise replies and banning people. I can't spend basically anytime here anymore except for drive by posting, reading news, and reading major events threads.

>>37996
Sorry if it's "idpol" and makes you feel attacked or whatever but there are in fact sections of the proletariat that experience unique forms of oppression that other sections of the proletariat do not because of things like racism, patriarchy and homophobia that arise from class but are not totally synonymous with class. Pretending like that isn't the case to mollify the feelings of straight white male proles and collapsing literally any kind of discussion of these issues into the same "liberal idpol" category is fucking dishonest and it's reactionary. Identity related bigotry exists and it makes the lives of sections of the proletariat materially worse. You can address those bigotries in ways which are not liberal but nobody in the anti-idpol crowd ever seems to have any interest in doing that. There is no recognition that Marxist feminism and liberal feminism or Communist gay lib and liberal gay lib might be substantively different. Mention any of these sectional issues as if they are worth discussing as more than a footnote and you must just be a tumblr radlib who thinks class struggle is irrelevant.

And it goes along with a really blinkered view of the history and present of socialist organizing. Most Communist parties historically have been a lot closer to the "idpol" (broadly defined in the dishonest way you people do) position on women and race than not. And in other cases it's the opposite, Communist parties were uniquely horrible on gay rights until the 90s almost overwhelmingly and in some cases even into the 2000s or today. If just saying "hey maybe struggle for gay rights can go along with the class struggle even if it only finds its ultimate fulfillment in the end of class society" is liberal then how are we supposed to critically discuss that history and make sure it doesn't happen again? And it's disconnected from the present of socialist organizing because if you join almost any irl Communist org from any tendency, ironically including anti-idpol ones, it's going to have a massively disproportionate amount of people from the groups we're talking about. So the idea that if someone treats a specifically black or women's or gay or trans issue as if it is worth addressing that they must be some lib who is not doing anything is just bullshit.

>>38003
>>38003
My issue is there has been multiple blatant reactionary posters just allowed to keep shitting the board up along with contrarians mostly ziggers cynically posting and derailing threads. It even started in this one. Then when anyone brings up how the community is leaving and the posts are getting shittier and present solutions like Rat did with a firm party line to moderation the mods just sweep the thread to meta.

Everybody is leaving and the board is COLLAPSING… even doe the daily UID has been at 250-300 for several years

>>38004
racism sexism homophobia is idpol

defending yourself or your friends or other groups is NOT idpol

>>37949
>"a flaw in moderation which will be fixed because the mods are on my side"
I think the exact opposite. I think they are letting the board go to shit on purpose to purge Marxists-Leninists because too many MLs got tired of being trolled by radlib ultras with jannies behind them that they started responding to everythings with "Stalin did nothing wrong" because when you take the time to explain with quotes from Marx or Lenin they plug their ears and run away. It is exactly as bad as trying to appeal to mods on a non-political forum where the status quo is predominantly upheld and expecting them to understand theory.

They pretty much completely stopped responding to feedback after crashing the site.

Oh and just to be clear the split is about campism and minority rights, and their analysis is completely wrong. They are hiding behind anti-campism to pretend their analysis doesn't start with idealism, as if human rights come from having the correct ideas fall out of the sky instead of being dependent on a certain level of material development and the social relations that come from that. The absolute worse are the race baiters who try to pretend like national self determination is advocating "brown capitalism" and they should be permabanned.

hopefully im wrong and those jannies just quit and arent coming back

>>37974
>That is seperate from my personal opinion
I agree there should be a line. China and Russia might be edge cases but people should not be allowed to call the Palestinian resistance class collaborating fascists.

>>37934
As I said before, the problem with this is with administration. There are mods who mistakenly think advocating for the right of nations to self determination is reactionary/bourgeois nationalism and have banned for it before. We can't have a united front of non-sectarian "lines" if the administration is lacking in even the basics and completely undermines it. I honestly think its because they are being overly cautious because they are closer to the type of people >>37941 who would previously be banned for idpol. They don't really understand or have a hard hitting dialectical and materialist analysis on minorities that demands support for them by universalizing their problems back into the class war, like wrapping up gay/women issues into universal free healthcare or how immigrant rights benefits all workers by creating a wage floor and instead just want to police language and make people feel safe even if they are liberal and wrong.

>>37904
You mean "anyone over the age of ten"

>>37994
I always thought communism was leftist

>>38004
nah youre stupid af and a boogie who just wants to alleviate the "evils" of capitalism. theres more in common between literally any single immiserated proletarian than a prole and middle classer that happen to share race sex w/e

>le historical communist position on women and race
oh you mean communists denouncing feminism and black power as interclassist opportunists even a century ago? really showed me!

>>38004
like i repeatedly get called a fed for calling out obvious lib bullshit like this LMFAO
>If just saying "hey maybe struggle for gay rights can go along with the class struggle even if it only finds its ultimate fulfillment in the end of class society" is liberal
lol sure if you can benefit from voting then you clearly are not proletarian rofl, stop obfuscating reality by pissing your pants
the whole point of rights is rewarding model citizens of bourgeois society moron

>>38030
communism is beyond the left-right of capital

>>38035
Where did I even halfway imply that I see some commonality of interests between a petit bourgeoisie woman and a proletarian woman? You are proving my point about anti-idpol posters dishonestly equating any discussion or activism around these issues with the liberal version of that discussion/activism.
>communists denouncing feminism and black power
The vast majority of Communist parties supported black power, including the CPUSA at its height. It was DeLeonists who saw black power and white power as synonymous and they are not even Marxists. And Marx and Engels themselves were feminists lol, read what they wrote on the woman question or read The Origin of the Family.

>>38036
Who the fuck mentioned voting?

>>37894
>Secondly, I feel like alot of you have gotten soft, when /leftypol/ was on 8chan there would be fascist crossposting posting their I Q memes and anti semitic schizo graphs all the time. They would be refuted pretty promptly.
HAHAHA THANK GOD WE HAVE SOME OTHER VETERANS HERE WHO REMEMBER WHAT IT USED TO BE LIKE.

BASED OLDFAG MOD.

ALL HAIL CYBERBARBARIAN FOR REMEMBERING WHAT 8CHAN LEFTYPOL WAS LIKE.

comrade rat is a RAT and should be disposed of like the Redditor plant that he is. Everyone who's been with /leftypol/ from the start knows that people screaming for a hugbox and all dissenters to be banned are the ones who are least able to defend their positions. Just look at this shit:
>>37934
>Is magacom allowed? Is dengism allowed? Is third worldist idpol allowed? Is 'support russia in their noble struggle against ukraines genocide' allowed?
This Uyghur LITERALLY WANTS TO BAN EVERY OPINION HE DISAGREES WITH AND IS MAD THAT OTHER MODS ARE HOLDING THE LINE AGAINST HIS AUTISM. KILL THIS UYGHUR FOR HAVING THE AUDACITY TO SUGGEST THIS SHIT.

>>38040
Rat is also an oldfag

Allow fascist reactionaries posting their retarded shit here so we can have a laugh, but autoban all ziggers

>>38047
Not only do you need to read what they wrote on the woman question but on the Irish question and on India too.

>>38048
Saying racism and misogyny are retarded is a lot different from supporting interclassist movements wholesale you fucking dipshit liberal.

>>37894
>Secondly, I feel like alot of you have gotten soft, when /leftypol/ was on 8chan there would be fascist crossposting posting their I Q memes and anti semitic schizo graphs all the time. They would be refuted pretty promptly.
As annoying as fascists are if this means less zealous moderation then I'm all for it.

>>38038
The whole point of activism as a term is remaining outside the class struggle.

>>38050
Hairsplitting autism. When you organize a workplace you are doing activism in the colloquial sense. You can call it something else because of an Italian communique 5 people will ever read or whatever it is you are doing but you know what I mean. Saying that minority, women's and gay issues need to be incorporated into the class struggle is not the same thing as saying that racism, patriarchy and homophobia exist apart from class and that you solve them with voting.

>>38049
I never supported interclassism even once. Read this post again >>38004

My whole fucking point is that there are forms of feminism, gay lib and racial minority politics that are not interclassist but that that is not recognized by anti-idpol types. No matter how anyone talks about these issues you accuse anyone who wants them to be more than an irrelevant footnote of being interclassist liberals who love elections and bourgeoise democracy.

>>38051
its not hairsplitting when we have people like you praising organization in the abstract instead of speaking about strictly proletarian organizing

>>38052
no there are not. all proletarians have the same needs and interests, irrespective of race, gender, geographical location, etc, while diff sections of bourgeois society have different interests because of their different forms of property and reserves which leads them to compete against one another along different lines. insofar as proletarians compete against one another and divide themselves along arbitrary lines, they do so at their own expense as a class

on a similar note radlibs love bringing up engels when defending feminism when he explicitly said shit like 'no basis for any kind of male supremacy is left in the proletarian household'. and misogynistic beliefs obv are a different thing, proletarians arent superhumanly immune to bourgeois ideology. which doesn't prove that they benefit from some abstract domination of men or have a class interest in maintaining the same

>>38057
Where did I talk about proletarians competing against other proletarians and what does that have to do with whether proletarians all have exactly the same needs and interests? A trans proletarian has medical needs and interests that a cis proletarian does not, that is completely self-evident. What goes for HRT for trans proles goes for abortion for female proles, PrEP and housing discrimination for gay proles. Those are absolutely different needs, you cannot say these proletarians are not being materially harmed by losing access to HRT, abortion or PrEP. Nothing about that implies that cis, male and straight proletarians are the problem or that there needs to be interproletarian competition against cis, male and straight proletarians. Nor does it imply voting or interclassism.

>>38057
When I say activism or organization (and I never did say organization or praise it in the abstract) I mean by the Communist party. I am not saying that Communists should go join Who We Are, Stonewall or Mermaid. What I am saying is that these issues need to be addressed by the party itself in the context of the class struggle.

>>38057
> all proletarians have the same needs and interests
Proletarians aren’t identical bugmen you fucking retard, another MLoid stupidly repeating how Capital already understands the working class specifically to tell a dumb fucking prole how their problem doesn’t exist

>>38073
>abolishing class society isnt in the interest of all proletarians, see some like a different soda brand or movie or whatever
you are very smart

<implying im a stalinist or whatever ideology market shit you personally dislike
imbecile

>>38079
>see some like a different soda brand or movie or whatever
A trans prole not having access to HRT or a gay prole not having access to PrEP is literally the difference between life or death, no different than a diabetic prole not having access to insulin. Saying it is the equivalent of liking a different brand of soda is homophobia/transphobia plain and simple.

And nobody in this entire thread has said that abolishing class society isn't in the interest of all proletarians lol. You are repeatedly doing what I said that anti-idpol posters do, which is dishonestly misrepresent any Communist who takes minority issues seriously as a liberal reformist.

>>38082
>>38070
and what is the universal aspect of this particular problem? is there something that effects all working class people that would solve this?

>>38084
Why does it need to be universal to be worth addressing by the Communist party? Oh sorry, yeah you're right. This thing that's literally keeping me alive isn't universal so you are correct, it matters just as much as choice between one brand or another and I am now totally indifferent as to whether I have it or not.

>>38085
im just pointing out that the specific issues you are talking about are used to divide the working class because of the popularity of a universal free healthcare program which would solve all those things but you would rather take the bait and put them front and center just to lose on misguided principles instead.

race gender orientation etc are real but mediated through class dynamics, to address minority oppression you have to have solutions that address the root cause

>>38088
I didn't say put them front and center you fucking brainlet retard, can you stop strawmanning for one goddamn second?
>race gender orientation etc are real but mediated through class dynamics
Quote me saying anything else. I specifically said that homophobia, patriarchy and transphobia do not exist apart from class but that didn't stop you from you from strawmanning me as some resist lib a dozen more times after that.
>to address minority oppression you have to have solutions that address the root cause
Which is why you incorporate these things into the class struggle. Patriarchy, homophobia, racism and transphobia cannot be solved under capitalism, which is why bourgeoise anti-racism, LGBT activism and feminism are wrong (besides interclassism and other issues ofc). What can definitely happen since we've seen it happen a ton of fucking times is that a socialist revolution can adopt a reactionary line on these sectional issues after it wins. You prevent that by not treating the physical survival of a specific section of the proletariat as as irrelevant as the difference between coke and pepsi now, under capitalism.
>>38089
Still no explanation of why it's liberalism for the Communist party to focus on issues that are not universal. You're a dogmatist fucking retard, you memorized a position you cannot explain in your own words and you just parrot it.

>>38090
>Which is why you incorporate these things into the class struggle.
thats exactly what i am suggesting. you dont need to campaign about HRT or PrEP you can just do healthcare and when rightiods try to split by saying they will give HRT to kids you respond by saying that Elon is trying to trick them into giving up their insulin.

>>38091
Then what the fuck have you been calling me a lib for for half the thread? I said a million goddamn times that I am not supporting voting, liberal activism, elctoralism, reformism, or interclassism. What I am arguing against is the idea that sectional issues like racism, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia are irrelevant and that anyone expecting the Communist party to address them at all is a lib. What you will end up with if you take that approach, whether you mean to or not, is tailism and a reactionary line on these sectional issues after the revolution (assuming you get that far). Your response was 50 fucking strawmen, saying that being trans is just as significant as a choice between brands, and some retarded claim you can't even explain or defend that the party can only address universal issues. Fucking neck yourself.

>>38092
lol i just got here

>>37868
>r9k posters and /pol/yps the site would prolly grow but for whatever reason the mods refuse the purge the site of obnoxious reactionaries
this was defacto moderation policy for like 2 years and the site was the most dead it ever was during that time.

>>37780
Absolutely, anon imageboards are prone to shitposting and the lack of effort posting feels like it's just due to a general lack of activity