How would music sampling work under socialism, given that intellectual property laws wouldn't exist?
>>9268>>9270>>9271China *does* have IP and copyright laws. They're just enforced differently than they are in America and most of the West. You just have to be on your game and declare ownership of your art before the copier does.
If you bothered to watch the video, you'd see how most of the cases would have flown in China since the original artist was the one taking the artist who sampled to court on their own terms. Lou Reed could have easily sued ATCQ if American laws were the same as China's for instance.
>>9267Heh
>>9363Boomer detected.
>>9364Why doesn't China abolish IP now that it's the global superpower and can make other countries conform to its system?
Also, free market libertarians will tell you IP goes against free market principles.
>>9363You say this, because you only know of cheap, lazy pop music samples. You are oblivious to how sampling is an art in and of itself.
VidRel
>>9373Seems to me like this story is merely a case of good ol' music industry racism. White raver kids in Britain felt entitled to a drum break made by a Black artist and the Black artist didn't receive anything. Has nothing to do with "muh IP is sacred".
>>9383Now I'm reminded of all those Tumblr girls from 10 years ago who would complain how their original fashion/jewelry designs they sold on Etsy were stolen by Urban Outfitters or some other equally shitty company.
In all seriousness though, the culture among musicians is very different from the culture among visual artists. Musicians build off each other whereas visual artists like illustrators and fashion designers constantly have to be original.
>>9383Because most musicians are proles whereas most illustrators are petit-bourgeois.
Notice how it's usually the PB who goes hardest for defending property laws of all sorts. Every time riots break out the PB are the first to denounce them on the basis they're afraid of their little shops being looted.
>>9390>>9392>>9393The contraction concerning IP is how you would protect small producers from larger more powerful ones.
That, and what if your music gets sampled by someone you hate? Would you be allowed to sue?
>>9363Yet you probably think shitty punk that involves three chords and a frontman who can barely articulate is “music”.
Get out of here whitey.
>>9386>sophisticatedIf you bothered watching the video I linked above you'd see how the host shows you exactly how to reproduce the technique.
I could literally remake the beat in VidRel in 15 minutes if I had an MPC (which BTW samples a bossa nova song from the 60s).
The reason most sampling these days is "lazy" is because record companies charge producers over $300,000 for a sample. The music industry is highly monopolized so they're able to get away with that. It's precisely the reason why you only see sampling in cheap pop songs made by "big names": they can afford it.
>>9417“Cultural appropriation” is one of those “I-can’t-define-it-but-I-know-it-when-I-see-it” things.
For instance, vidrel isn’t CA because no colonial relationship exists between Black Americans and Egyptians (Egyptian Arabs actually enslaved Black Africans but that’s a whole other story).
So would, say, using Indian, Bulgarian, or Southern French folk music for drill beats be an example? What about all those instances of white rock stars covering songs by Black blues artists? It’s not a one-size-fits-all thing at all.
>>9422Globalization and social media have made cultural exchange the norm.
Go to Toronto where you'll see Indian-Somali-Russian fusion cuisine.
>>9438I like how the other guy is talking about a whole genre and you ask about a single band. Anyway, here you go
https://www.whosampled.com/The-Beatles/samples/ :)
>>9441>>9442I asked about them because for some reason I thought that they were considered the archetype of pop music.
If you check the list they are all "replayed samples":
> An interpolation (also referred to as a replayed sample), as opposed to a direct sample, is when the sampling track does not use a portion of the actual source recording, but reproduces it in some way. In many cases interpolations reproduce the exact melody line of another track using a different instrument.This is not actual sampling. In sampling you take an actual record from someone else. Copyright only protects actual records, not melodies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpolation_(popular_music)> Interpolation is often used when the artist or label who owns the recording of the music declines to license the sample, or if licensing the piece of music is considered too costly. >>9463Here's Wikipedia, I think it's pretty easy to understand:
> In sound and music, sampling is the reuse of a portion (or sample) of a sound recording in another recording.They are reusing parts of already recorded music. That's what hip hop producers do, they cut out snippets from other music and put them together into something new.
> take an existing instrumental and have the rapper lay new lyrics on top.That's how they do it with reggae riddims too, and nobody is calling that sampling. Sampling is a technique that hip hop producers frequently make use of while creating their "instrumentals". It's not when the rapper sings over it.
copyright defenders look as silly as the cryptocoin morons who purchased nfts and got mad that everyone else could simply right-click their garbage monkeys, becomes doubly funny when its alleged leftists becoming pinochets strongest soldiers when it comes to copyright laws and the division between manual/intellectual and skilled/unskilled labor
>>9463lmfao why would anyone need to become a lawyer just to argue for the abolishing of property, which includes intellectual property. copyright isnt real bro
>>9469>That spongebob memethey are stealing the likeness of an IP to defend how emulation (because emulators are totally stealing from an infinite source) is a crime and should be thrown in jail.
if they did not pay nickelodeon for that meme they also should go to jail.
>>9403Still a selective sampling fallacy on your part.
Most sampling in pop music and yes even rap is horrid and amounts to stealing rather than muh art.
>>9472I've already stated that the issue with shit sampling is 1. lazy producers who are turning out cheap junk because labels need to make a quick profit and 2. the enormous amount of money it now costs to clear a sample.
Since Dilla is "too sophisticated" for you how about Havoc's slowed-down piano samples as an example of mainstream sampling done right?
>>9481Sophie from Tumblr is probably white and already has a steady income if she's spending her time making things for Etsy. She requires the bourgeois state to enforce IP because she believes she's entitled to not have to work like the rest of us. I have no desire to defend her even if UO or Shein or whatever copies her designs.
>>9386>>literally posts the most sophisticated exampleWhich is exactly why you see thousands of lo-fi hip hop copycats in the underground.
Lurk more.
>>9414>>9415>>9416>>9418>>9419>>9420>>9422>>9425>>9480>>9484>>9488>>9494So what about indigenous artists whose indigenous designs get copied and mass produced by settlers?
How are they protected without some form of IP?
This does happen and it happens a lot actually.
>>9502>How are they protected without some form of IP?Yet IP laws are mostly weaponized against BIPOC, namely BLACK hip hop artists/producers.
Also, which "settler designers" are copying Native designs? Give examples and tell me if that justifies state repression of all art.
>>9502If sampling is that big a deal to some souls create a right of confrontation from the sampled towards the sampled.
Make it public.
>>9502>settlersNo such thing.
If my ancestors arrived in America 150 how am I a settler?
>>9531>>9533Counterpoint
This track uses AT LEAST five different samples, all layered on top of each other.
>inb4 "sophisticated"Nothing sophisticated about this. Anyone with a good ear and MPC could make this without an issue.
Again, your beef seems to be with lazy producers.
>>9561It's already taught in music theory.
But it won't be long before the boomres who currently run the academy all die off and Gen Xers and Millennials who grew up with Golden Age hip hop start taking over.
>>9363Hot take:
Sampling is music precisely because it's stealing.
>>9602I already said right of confrontation for the OG producer. It's a social issue. Fix it socially.
Enforce it when we take power, and even better this is one of those issues where we can behave like we are already in power to a certain extent as long as we apply the rule evenly.
Serious, liberalism ie. the bourgeois dictatorship is crumbling enough a bit of termite work, and just seeping into the power vacuum through suction is possible here.
>>9583https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_biasYou keep posting hip hop’s “Mozarts” when I keep telling you 99% of sampling in rap and pop music sounds like ass. Your average producer doesn’t make anything close to what you insist is “proof” sampling is an art form nor is your average producer getting academic books written about their signature sound or taught as music theory.
Now I’m certain *you* are white and probably have loads of white guilt.
>>9611That would be a fair point if I hadn't given a concrete proposal.
Let the OG producer yell in their face, simple as.
>>9413>>9420>>9422>>9502I find it funny how when non-Western people play rock music, use electric guitars, rap and so on, nobody gives a shit, but when Westerners include foreign elements in their art, suddenly it's bad because it's "cultural appropriation".
Liberals bitching about "cultural appropriation" are doing nothing but upholding American cultural hegemony.
>>9531>>9533>>9612>nor is your average producer getting academic books written about their signature sound or taught as music theoryWho cares? Music is only valid when academics write books about it now?
If it's so easy, get a copy of Ableton Live and start making dank beats, and post them here for us to enjoy, I'm sure you can do this in no time.
As a musician who can play different instruments and have played in front of an audience several times, I suck at sampling and respect it as an art form. You are just a wanker LARPing as Adorno.
This thread is embarrassing as fuck, really.
>>9634Maybe IP laws wouldn't be necessary if artists could live well by paying their dues to society working for a short while and still have a lot of time away from labour to craft their art, instead of trying to become a bunch of cringe rent-seekers in an era where it hasn't been ever easier to create and duplicate art.
Have you ever seen Rap of China? I'm sure they use a lot of Vengeance sample packs.
>>9612>>9619Well well well, speak of the devil.
>29:39 – "in my house… my mother listened to classical music"So we've cracked the code: listen to classical music if you want the creativity to make beats that are – dare I say – sophisticated.
And I further my assertion that the only reason
>>9612 (you) have a grudge against sampling is because mainstream producers are phoning it in as much as the artists. Do you know the reason most mainstream music is garbage is largely due to how monopolized the industry is?
Hell, there are actual charts and graphs which show how the quality of popular music has declined since the 90s. Things like key changes, for instance, used to be a lot more frequent in pop songs decades ago but are barely existent today.
>Now I’m certain *you* are white and probably have loads of white guilt.Well I'm Jewish so I'm white but not white-white.
>>9624Based Froggies.
>>9626>>9627>>9629To be quite honest, I get the impression that a lot of the "hip hop is CIA", "punk is CIA", "abstract and outsider art is CIA" allegations really boil down to respectability politics. Goons like Maupin and his LaRoucheite sugardaddies want to create a sense of hatred and distrust around art from below because they believe leftists need to be "respectable", as in we should look less like actual working-class outsiders and more like we're going to a board meeting. "Real communists wear suits and hate art made by people who are actually frustrated with the status quo", pathetic.
When the establishment does take over art from below it's always to ensure its deprived of its potentially radical edge. Remember, Jackson Pollack was a communist and the only reason he got money under the table from CIA-funded orgs was because the establishment thought it could use abstract art as a means of showing the USSR the US was culturally progressive.
I actually remember having this conversation with a Black woman boomer communist who told me the reason the culture vultures specifically target hip hop and the culture of the hood is because the hood is where the struggle is.
>>9642 (me)
Forgot to mention, Nas sampled classical music.
>>9642> Things like key changes, for instance, used to be a lot more frequent in pop songs decades ago but are barely existent today.Key changes don't make a song good necessarily.
Honestly computers killed music. It used to be music could only be made by musicians of some degree. So sampling and the death of music go hand in hand.
I don't think it's been covered here, but the most creative sampling involves using the most samples, but the more samples you use, the more people you have to pay. Speaking of uncreative sampling. It's rather pointless to pay for a sample and then turn around and make the sample unrecognizable.
>>9644>Honestly computers killed music. Oversimplified. And MPCs aren't "computers" per se.
>So sampling and the death of music go hand in hand.Again, your issue isn't with sampling itself but from lazy sampling.
>ut the more samples you use, the more people you have to pay.And I've been making that point this entire thread: the music industry is highly monopolized and is trying to prevent people from sampling by charging an exorbitantly high amount for each sample. That's why you rarely see sampling in hip hop anymore but have lazy producers making cheap, minimalist beats by looping three notes over and over.
>Speaking of uncreative sampling. It's rather pointless to pay for a sample and then turn around and make the sample unrecognizable.False. Disguised samples are the best samples.
>>9648>Oversimplified. And MPCs aren't "computers" per se.Anon, don't look up what the C stands for. Greatest mistake of my life.
>>9648>Again, your issue isn't with sampling itself but from lazy sampling.That comment wasn't for or against sampling. Sampling is a rather irrelevant topic nowadays. No popular music really uses samples anymore.
>False. Disguised samples are the best samples.It's about the end product not the process. Go back and see how many of J Dillas songs are just straight forward loops/covers/references
>>9644Sampling started because Black youth in the Bronx couldn't afford instruments. So they relied on reusing old jazz and funk albums.
Nice classism and racism.
>>9644Are you a musician? Or just an elitist in general?
Anyway, sampling not only leads to the discovery of new aspects of talent; in addition, clashing head-on with all social and legal conventions, it cannot fail to be a powerful cultural weapon in the service of a real class struggle. The cheapness of its products is the heavy artillery that breaks through all the Chinese walls of enjoyment. It is a real means of proletarian artistic education, the first step toward a musical communism.
>>9659>when white people do it they never get the scrutinyI know – hope – you are baiting, but yes Herbie Hancock, Kate Bush, Ryuichi Sakamoto (RIP), Coil, and countless other 1980s artists used huge-ass expensive computers to playback and manipulate samples, the best-known model is the Fairlight CMI, but there were also different systems like the Synclavier and custom computers at IRCAM.
Then the means of playing back samples got cheaper (E-mu Emulator, Ensoniq Mirage) and they created a more intuitive interface for it (Linn 9000, E-mu SP1200, MPC), right in time for hip-hop and industrial music to emerge or something (muh dialectics).
>>9642>respectability politicsDon't wanna derail the threat but there's a lot to say about this. Namely, how reactionaries always appeal to respectability when they know they're losing the argument or can't respond.
If Penny Pinkhair says "the nuclear family is oppressive and must be abolished" you can be sure Maupin, Midwestern Marx, and others in their ilk won't put forth an argument to refute her but will merely try to discredit her on the basis she's not "respectable", e.g. "she has pink hair, she's part of the PMC, she's vegan, she listens to distorted music and likes abstract art, she reads Nietzsche, she dresses like a crust punk, blah blah blah."
We also see this with the Palestine protests in the West. The pro-Israel crowd always attacks those protests on the basis of the protesters' lack of respectability rather than addressing what the protesters are actually protesting against (namely, genocide). You see plenty of news articles about how Palestine solidarity protesters were unruly, they were "attacking" pro-Israel demonstrators, they were spraying graffiti on Starbucks windows, etc.
And yeah I would say the same is true of the culture. Punk and hip hop are attacked because they're unpolished and "not real music" because they weren't created by bourgeois whites and originally didn't appeal to white bourgeois values. There's a lot more to say about that but this thread isn't the place.
>>9720Hot take that will get me cancelled, but the “no snitch” code is arguably why misogyny flourishes in both punk and rap subcultures. People don’t want to be known as the girl who outed a certain big name in the scene as an abuser. It took Justin Sane’s victims DECADES to expose him and there were at least twelve of them.
More proof of why anarchism is toxic and idealist.
>>9720>>9756>>9763>>9765"Cancel culture" is based on the false premise that immoral people shouldn't be making art for us. Which again, comes back to the debate over whether or not sampling has made music more generic: if all art did was reinforce the dominant moral paradigm it would cease to be innovative and would just be bloody boring. It would have no edge nor would it shake or move us.
Lauryn Hill is a known antisemite and homophobe, yet you would all kill to see her perform live, wouldn't you?
>>9641Dogmatist detected.
Take that anarchist flag off.
>>9765Being a snitch, even if you're outing an abuser, is considered even worse than being a scab or a Zionist. Punk scenes are full of rapists and abusers because anarchists adhere to a "no snitch" code which causes a lot of abuse to fly under the radar. Not to mention, keeping "the scene" together is considered the most important thing (muh mutual aid and all that) so no survivor of abuse wants to be known as "the woman who destroyed the scene". And given how close these people are to each other there's no way any survivor who comes forward will remain anonymous for very long.
This is why anarchism doesn't work in practice. Anarchist spaces are all prone to extreme violence and abuse because survivors feel ashamed if they come forward. Why did it take Justin Sane's victims so long to tell their stories? Kristina Sarhadi stayed silent for 13 fucking years.
>>9789>>9790We just exposed Brian Baker from Minor Threat/Bad Religion as someone who forced his ex-gf into an abortion which turned her into a suicidal alcoholic.
Abuse is rampant in punk in a way it's not in hip hop or any other music scene.
>>9792Are you implying Minor Threat and Bad Religion weren't explicitly political bands?
Lurk more.
>>9634I don't think even the dumbest most dogmatic members of the ccp would say something that stupid.
Americans argue whether or not their policies are "capitalist" or "democratic" all the time, even they're not dumb enough to take it for granted that because they consider themselves to be a capitalist democracy that all of their policies are inline with their ideals.
>>9367>Why doesn't China abolish IP now that it's the global superpower and can make other countries conform to its system?Because either
1. They've betrayed the revolution in part or in whole
2. They still don't think they're powerful enough, and/or there are bigger fish to fry
3. They think, while in principle it should be abolished, but that it would harm """the economy""" to much to do so at the present moment.
Or any combination of the above. My guess is a bit of all three, but mostly 2.
>>9772Talib Kweli posted Holocaust denial on Twitter.
Kodak Black raped an underage girl and never faced any penalties for it.
You have to be a pretty big piece of shit to get cancelled in hip hop.
>>9806So basically, not much different from the golden age of rock. We know now that rock stars from the 70s were engaged in some incredibly sketchy behaviour. Underage groupies were a lot more common than people want to believe, for instance.
It's only a matter of time before all the legendary rappers and producers get exposed for all the debauchery they did behind closed doors.
>>9815 (me)
Forgot to add, I still don't agree with cancel culture and find its entire premise to be based on a false idea. Justin Sane raped multiple women and is an overall piece of shit, agreed, but does that entail Anti-Flag's entire body of work needs to be memory hole'd? It's not a black-and-white issue.
>>9814I was perceiving that you meant fame and fortune were two different factors as regards to motivation, but now it seems that you were also considering fame as means to fortune.
I was saying that fame as an intrinsic desire, removed from it as an extrinsic good, is not very relevant to royalties.
I then implied that there aren't particularly strong reasons to believe that this extrinsic desire for fame wouldn't survive under socialism, or that it would even be massively curtailed.
My mistake for not getting what you meant.
I can see proposals replacing royalties that fulfill royalty's social function other than your own, but they all have their plusses and minuses, so your proposal still seems plausible.
>>9859Yes, and it's unfortunate that several contrarians in this thread would say otherwise and insist sampling is "lazy" and "ruinous".
I posted enough Dilla samples so here's one from Madlib and Doom.
>>9856At this point, Ye is more of a mogul than a rapper/producer. His fascism comments were the final straw in a long list of shit he's been doing for years.
>>9791>>9826Getting an abortion should be considered no morally different than getting a tooth removed. There is no fucking way the government should be allowed to tell me what I need to push out of my pussy. Now pearl-clutchers are trying to cancel Justin Timberlake for allegedly "forcing" Britney into aborting despite her admitting it was a decision both of them made and definitely not forced.
>>9861yeah, that's part of what I meant by option 1.
>>9863And that's option 3.
>>9879Teleological means goal directed.
If Marxism isn't directed towards the goal of full communism then it isn't Marxism.
>>9875A teleological proposition is not a fallacious one. Consider this teleological proposition, "We must eat so that we do not starve."
A non teleological explanation of the existence of China's IP laws is this: China's IP laws arose out of development in productive forces.
China's IP laws are historically necessary, as they came FROM development of productive forces and they EXIST to foster development of productive forces.
>>9882>history doesn't have a goal. It just has several goals.Yeah, it has several competing teloses. At least one of which is communism.
>>9884Literally none of that is relevant in the slightest. The other anon specified that he wasn't interested in the pro-china anti-china aspect of your argument.
>>9894>I said history has several "competing" teloses…100% invoking metaphysics.
How do you know history has a “final goal” at all?
>>9898>100% invoking metaphysics<the "my philosophy is super special and doesn't even have metaphysics" memeIt's not the 20th century anymore, please just give it the fuck up.
>How do you know history has a “final goal” at all?That isn't even the correct term, it's "final cause" which doesn't imply the same thing. I don't think that history is some magical spirit like Hegel did as you seem to imply. I think that people who make up history have different goals (teloses) and that therefore when considering history you have to use the concept of those goals (teloses) imparting their forces onto reality. I also think that teleological conceptions can be used in non-goal circumstances such as biological evolution and societal structures which fall under the same patterns, but I don't even need that here so w/e.
Teleology in biology is still controversial in science. But I am a partisan of the yes camp.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleology-biology/I fucking hate these Marxists that will believe any nonsense as long as you say the words "structural" or "dialectical" or "material" enough times before hand, but if you say anything the least bit against their intuition without saying their magic words they immediately accuse you of more or less believing in magic.
No, thinking "this group of people did X thing because they wanted Y result" (which is more or less what you objected to) does not mean that I believe in some mystical God of History.
>>9900>History, like evolution, doesn’t have an “end goal”. It just is.Entirely agreed… But
Telos=/=end goal
Telos doesn't even mean goal. It's broader than that. Goals are a type of telos. Teloses are a form of causation when something 'exists' or 'happens' or whatever to do something else or for the sake of something else.
Like
"a bird has wings to fly" Or
"The government passed anti-union legislation to break labor" Or
"Potato cultivation became popular to to increase calories per acre"
>>9902>end goalWhat do you mean by this exactly? In the example that you posted I would not say that a seed has an "end goal" to become a tree, but apparently you would.
>metaphysical processIsn't every process metaphysical? What would possibly be a non-metaphysical process?
>people will argue that a seed is the same as a tree because a seed has a telos to become a tree.As would I, but with a lot of caveats. (Engels and Hegel both note something similar as well, with nearly that exact example)
'Sameness' doesn't describe a single relation between things, but there are multiple different relations of sameness. Like a tree and a seed might be the same species (which I do think is defined teleologically at least in part), but not the same individual. Or it might be the same individual, but not at the same time… Like I'm the same as me from 20 years ago according to some metrics/meanings, but not others. Like I wouldn't say that just because I'm the same person and I'm an adult that me from 20 years ago was an adult. You and me are likewise "the same" by some criteria (species) and not by others. See video embedded for a nice mathematical demonstration of the principle of sameness (according to some criteria) between non-same things (according to another criteria) making sense.
I think you're implying that saying that a seed is the same as a tree is incoherent, but saying that they can't be sounds like Buddhist dogmatism to me.
In particular I don't know how you maintain that a seed and a tree aren't in some way "the same" without throwing out the entire notion of a species, and I don't know how you can define a species without any reference to teleology.
>>9619How many people under 35 listen to hip hop and punk vs how many listen to Joan Baez and Paul Robeson?
Sorry bro but no one who will actually live to see socialism in America wants your CPUSA nostalgia.
>>9373I saw this video a while ago and don’t know how I feel. On one hand fuck copyright but it’s not fair those guys got massively screwed over by the industry and received nothing.
>>9403Donuts is definitely a sophisticated album I doubt your average dudebro producer could make something like that.
>>9861>>9862>>9863>>9865Just accept China is deeply revisionist.
>>9874The Black birthrate in America actually increased post-Roe. If anything, abortion and birth control access kill white birthrates harder since white women have better access to both.
>>9882Althusser is the GOAT.
>>9904That's every leftypol thread with over 200 replies.
>>9905>>9906>>9907Maupin and co. erroneously believe if it wasn't for the CIA creating the "synthetic left" all working-class people in America would be tankies like him with heavy nostalgia for CPUSA circa 1935. I don't want to bash on CPUSA since they did some great things back in the day, but anyone who insists the American left needs to return to that is seriously deluded.
"Folk music is populist and celebrates the people, hip hop and punk are dirty and prioritize the particular over the universal" is a useless statement to make. All the old red diaper babies who remember when leftism in America was "populist" (although I'd question this premise) are all dying off. Gen Xers and Millennials are reaching sage age where we are now the ones taking control of the culture; most of us were listening to rap and punk and active in those scenes. Gen Z doesn't give a shit about 1930s American communist nostalgia at all since they have no direct connection to it like oral histories. If you want to fester revolution you have to appeal to the younger generations over the older ones, since the younger folks are going to be the ones actually making revolution. Appealing to boomers is worthless at this point.
Not to mention all the rebellion is coming from hip hop and punk. Most "Americana" folk musicians these days are either apolitical or reactionary, meaning Maupin appealing to that genre as "populist socialist music" means he sees "class struggle" as primarily a cultural thing.
>>9908Funny enough, most Wobbly songs were based on Christian hymns that comrades took and subverted by turning the lyrics anti-clerical and anti-capitalist.
>>9909Someone got pleb filtered.
>>9922This is the same excuse Juice WRLD used when he got sued by Sting.
"It's not a sample it's an INTERPOLATION."
>>9920I know you're being sarcastic, but Appalachian folk music doesn't channel the frustrations of millennials and zoomers the way rap and punk do. Trying to prop up "Middle American" culture as the "authentic working-class culture" in America is a failed project from the start.
PatSocs like Maupin seem far more interested in reaching out to angry boomers than they do building a basis among the younger folks who will actually live to see and build socialism. Claiming everything that happened within (potentially) radical circles on the American left post-1965 is "CIA" is a moot point. You play with the cards you've been dealt rather than romanticize what "should have" happened in the past.
>>9924Oliver Anthony is a meme/niche artist at best whose 15 minutes of fame are already over.
>>9927Correct. The Matt Walsh/Ben Shapiro crowd appeals to the same people Maupin does.
>>9930Pac was literally a CPUSA member but whatevs.
>>9936The argument I hear the most often is that socialism anywhere today will "inevitably" be a continuation of what the revisionist CPC is doing. Which again, begs the question.
>>9950So it's just nationalism and white supremacy. Figures. Populism will always have a highly exclusionary element to it (be it antisemitism, anti-Blackness, hatred of immigrants, queerphobia, etc.) because it riles up the masses to fear and hate outsiders as "disrupters".
>>9953There is no such thing as a "forced abortion". Unless a fascist government is holding down a pregnant woman and cutting the fetus out of her the abortion isn't forced. YOU make the decision to walk into that clinic. Enough of this anti-woman garbage.
>>9968Only big-name producers are porkies.
>>9973>>9975>>9990>>9991Most of these were clearly cases of power imbalances.
>>10036The chinese music proletariat would cease to own their music, which currently they sell to the communist state owned and state subordinate record labels.
Without ip and copyright law, the music proletariat would own no music to sell and cultural production would halt. The development of the musical forces of China would be stifled under such proposed petty bourgeois anarcho-capitalist policy
>>10038Not an arguement.
The chinese cultural proletariat would starve and the chinese nation's cultural development would cease without the current communist ip law.
>>10042Sounds like capitalism with extra steps.
Does China have exploitative record labels too?
>>9863>>10027>>10028>>10034>>10035>>10036>>10037>>10038>>10039>>10040>>10042>>10043>>10044>>10045>>10046>>10047>>10048>>10049>>10051This, my friends, is a perfect example of why modern Marxism is a scam.
Xi and the CPC will issue a new policy (land policy, IP, foreign relations, whatever). This policy gets translated and passed around to all communist groups in the world. So now you have little normie Marxist, let's call her comrade Becky. Becky has to interpret the CPC's policy within the past 180 years of Marxist thought, so how is she supposed to do that? Well, she isn't. She takes this to one of her party's higher-ups, comrade Todd and asks him to give his interpretation of this policy. But comrade Todd is a little bit too much of a China fanboy for her taste, so she takes her questions about China's policy to her grad school advisor Prof. Steinberg who's an old school Maoist and not afraid to be harshly critical towards anything he sees as too far right or left. He tells her China hasn't been socialist since Mao shook hands with Nixon and tells her the new CPC policy is all garbage and she shouldn't bother with it.
See the problem here?
You could ask five different Marxists a very simple question like: "When did the USSR stop being socialist?" and get 27 different answers. And these comrades all claim to adhere to the exact same methodology (DiaMat) which they claim is foolproof. I'm sorry, but if this is the case then it proves Marxism can't overcome what it claims to overcome and what it frequently attacks anarchists for believing.
It's a total bluff and you're better off being anarchists since we don't have these problems.
>>10072You can’t call DiaMat foolproof if it’s adherents can’t even come to conclusions on the most basic questions regarding socialism.
And yes, many old school Maoists in America are Jewish red diaper babies whose parents were Fosterites back in CPUSA.
>>10051>Enough for the forces of production to exceed the relations of productionIf you actually understood what you said you would know that this is entirely begging the question. You effectively said that the forces of production have to be high enough for the revolution to occur… No shit sherlock, the question is where is this supposed point?
>>10048Marx, Engels and Lenin all thought that the productive forces were enough in the core capitalist countries to achieve communism in the 1880s. China is infinitely more developed than those were. When Mao himself was presented with the Shanghai People's Commune in 1967 he did not say "no muh productive forces :(((" he said
>if the whole of China sets up people communes, should the People's Republic of China change its name to the People's Commune of China? Would others recognize us? Maybe the Soviet Union would not recognize us whereas Britain and France would. And what would we do about our ambassadors in various countries?>[the communes are] weak when it comes to suppressing counterrevolution. People have come and complained to me that when the Bureau of Public security arrest people, they go in the front door and out the back. The actual argument isn't that it "can't exist" but that it would be (either through military or other means) be squashed out by the capitalist powers (external or internal) if attempted now. Or if the cpc could take up neoliberal (neoliberal not being used as a slur here, this is literally Hayek's argument against communism more or less) arguments that we currently don't have the organizational skills to manage communism, but as far as I know the cpc has never argued this.
>>10073I'm not even a Marxist, but I know enough to know that those are poor rebuttals.
>can’t call DiaMat foolproofThey don't. they say it's a scientific method or something similar ("immortal science" blah blah blah).
As to a scientific principle or theory not being good if it "can’t even come to conclusions on the most basic questions", most climate change deniers believe in the standard model of physics, so I guess that the standard model of physics must be terrible.
Obviously there's something to the criticism of DiaMat seemingly being useless, but it's much weaker than you're making it out to be. No one is dumb enough to claim that the methodology is sufficient to achieve the truth, at most they claim it's necessary, at the least they claim it's useful.
>>10056Western sources and their baseless slander needs not to be acknowledged.
>>10074China has already pushed the socialism button. the Chinese proletariat is already overthrowing global capitalism and monopoly capital merely by exploiting the inherent contradictions with the chinese socialist mode of production.
>Marx, Engels and Lenin all thought that the productive forces were enough in the core capitalist countries to achieve communism in the 1880s. China is infinitely more What they supposedly believed is irrelevant to actual historical and existing material conditions
>The actual argument isn't that it "can't exist" but that it would be (either through military or other means) be squashed outTautology. Not an arguement.
>>10055Not an arguement
Chinese intellectual property laws are socialist. The development and security of Chinese proletariat culture must be upheld.
>>10077Are you joking?
I genuinely can't tell.
>>10055>so she takes her questions about China's policy to her grad school advisor Prof. Steinberg who's an old school Maoist and not afraid to be harshly critical towards anything he sees as too far right or left. He tells her China hasn't been socialist since Mao shook hands with Nixon and tells her the new CPC policy is all garbage and she shouldn't bother with it.This prof is unironically correct. Modern China is deeply revisionist and I would question anyone who props it up as a shining example of "socialism".
>You could ask five different Marxists a very simple question like: "When did the USSR stop being socialist?" and get 27 different answers.>"blah blah blah why doesn't debate end???"Because it's not supposed to. Marxism is a living ideology. It's not something where you put in the evidence and get an answer spit out. Marxism fundamentally understands everything as a process.
Marxism is very Jewish, in the sense that it arrives at truth the same way Jews do. What happens when one person says China is socialist and the other person says it isn't? You debate. You don't give up on the search for truth because one comrade says X and the other one says Y.
>>10100I am sorry. I understand how you may feel this way. You fail to understand the truth, but I am not the most qualified to explain these complicated things.
Please read this theory to understand the truth. The marxists which I reference are much more qualified to speak on this issue than anyone here. The first one is mandatory reading material to understand the issue.
To Protect Intellectual Property Is to Protect Innovation
By CPC Leadership Group of the Chinese Academy of Sciences Source: English Edition of Qiushi Journal Updated: 2021-04-30
http://en.qstheory.cn/2021-04/30/c_617535.htmXi stresses strengthening intellectual property rights protection
http://en.qstheory.cn/2020-12/02/c_568258.htmIntellectual property protection continuously strengthened in China
http://en.qstheory.cn/2021-03/18/c_604458.htmChina wholeheartedly upholds intellectual property cause
http://en.qstheory.cn/2020-12/17/c_575471.htm >>10108The principal of Intellectual Property Rights Being A Vehicle of Development holds in both cultural and actual production. The Chinese culture is the most socially healthy and developed of cultures, this is due to the Party's communist policies and the prosperous material conditions fostered by the Proletariat and it's Party.
Humanity's most advanced technologies and cultural fruits are being produced in China and are being accumulated into the People's hands through the Party by its scientific communist policies.
Please read this. Cultural development is a passing mention, but the Chinese ccommunists understand that advancements in science and technology are a prerequisite for greater innovation in cultural development. Under extant material conditions, intellectual property laws foster development in cultural production just as they do in science and technology production.
“Guidelines for Building a Powerful Country with Intellectual Property Rights (2021-2035)”
https://www.cnipa.gov.cn/art/2021/9/22/art_53_170293.html>>10105This is not hasbara, it is material fact. This is the Chinese Communist Party's official statements and theories on the topic. The Chinese have conducted decades of the most in-depth and scientific class based analysis on these issues. Who are you to slander the Chinese communists' analysis and policies? They are the most scientific, communist, and powerful party of history.
>>10120You can filter out oppressive ideologies in pop music without resorting to propping up IP laws.
>>10127You still need to demonstrate the CPC's policies are entirely in-line with ML rather than being a degenerated workers' state littered with capitalist roaders.
>Under extant material conditions, intellectual property laws foster development in cultural production just as they do in science and technology production.You're not showing evidence. You're regurgitating buzzwords and buzzphrases ("China is communist and China's IP laws will foster unlimited progress because China is communist").
>>10131>Hip hop and punk are massively commercial and can in no way be called organic expressions of working class hardshipSo every rap and punk song from now on is anti-proletariat because both genres have been heavily taken over by the mainstream music industry?
>Folk music like what Oliver Anthony is doing has almost no commercial backing so you know everything coming from that genre is authentic and actually speaks for working people.Oliver Anthony only became famous because he was propped up by Matt Walsh, a POS who advocates Palestinian genocide and committing violence against LGBTQ people. Not the kind of person I would want "speaking for the working-class". And Oliver Anthony's 15 minutes of fame ended a while ago.
>Rap promotes fucking bitches, shooting people and self indulgence. Punk romanticizes being a social degenerate. Real working people hate all that. And yet those genres in particular are overwhelmingly loved by most people under 40, in other words the people who will be the ones who actually implement socialism. Zoomers don't listen to Pete Seeger (no hate to Pete).
Interestingly enough, one of the most famous rap songs of all time is a subtle critique of capitalism.
>>10132Why are you even asking this? The truth is found in the debate.
>>10134>I find it interesting how rock stars and pop stars force their girlfriends to get abortionsUnless someone is ripping open your womb, there is no such thing as a "forced abortion". YOU made the decision to walk into the clinic or take the pills.
>>10139For concrete demonstration of china's upmost degree of marxism leninism, see china today.
China today is the most prosperous socialist society in history, and this is due to Socialism With Chinese Characteristics - NOT CAPITALISM - and their strictly marxist leninist program which uplifts the People. I am not taking anyone's word for anything, because this is all readily observable and obvious fact.
Chinese society as it exists is only possible due to the hardliners marxist leninist governance.
The advancement of intellectual property rights precipitates the development in productive forces which marxist leninist governed communist chinese society stands upon.
>>10138>Unless someone is ripping open your womb, there is no such thing as a "forced abortion". YOU made the decision to walk into the clinic or take the pills.By that logic there's no such thing as pressuring someone into sex unless it comes with physical force and/or threats.
I don't know about the Brittany stuff, and I don't think that just because coerced abortions are possible that abortions should be illegal (anymore that because coerced sex is possible that sex should be illegal), but I have no idea how you'd justify setting the standard for coercion so high.
>>10143Are you sure? Are China's billionaires "proletarian"?
>>10144If you made the decision with your partner to get an abortion it wasn't forced. Unless you're being dragged into the clinic kicking and screaming I don't see how the abortion is "coerced".
>>10160Utter nonsense. Employers need only to make up a reason. They can easily state in their bourgeois courts that the pregnant female was not fired because they were pregnant, but to manage costs, etc. This problem is solved in socialist courts, like the Chinese have established.
>>10146<If you made the decision with your partner to get an abortion it wasn't forced. Unless you're being dragged into the clinic kicking and screaming I don't see how the abortion is "coerced".Abortion is the result of coercive and oppressive bourgeois conditions; thereby, abortion is coercive. Proletarians as a class are forced by condition and interest to abort their children or fall deeper into pauperism by the bourgeoisie.
You would agree if you understood class dynamics. Class dynamics permeate through all things, yet they still elude you in every aspect. 👏
Someone who criticizes China for "not being socialist" and other such nonsense would fail to understand these facts, of course.
>>10055This thread shows how the most zealous "Marxists" online don't have any idea of what they are talking about.
Does anyone here believe zoomers give a shit about intellectual property when mass video streaming and FL Studio exist?
Have any of you ever heard of Vengeance sample packs?
How do you think producers make beats? Do you believe they painstakingly sample an original TR808 and process it with the right amount of compression, EQ and distortion every time to create their own bank of drum samples, or do you hope every single zoomer is a perfect law-abiding citizen paying for trap sample packs?
Some of y'all shouldn't waste time LARPing as boomers, your preconceived idea of what sampling should be is absolutely irrelevant to the zoomers who are
practicing the art of sampling in their bedrooms, in this very moment.
>>10176You don't want to capture the sounds of the whole room, only the vacuum sound?
I suggest to rather use a nicely placed XY or MS configuration to capture the stereo image well then.
>>10165>tooth whitening is the result of coercive and oppressive bourgeois conditions; thereby, tooth whitening is coercive. Proletarians as a class are forced by condition and interest to whiten their teeth or fall deeper into pauperism by the bourgeoisie because whiter teeth result in better jobsDo you know how pathetic you sound?
Also, I love how you completely ignore the subject of reproductive labour and the fact women, when unable to control our own bodies, often take the dual roles of mothers and workers outside the home. People with penises get the privilege of having much more leisure time.
Capitalism runs on women's uncompensated ability to pump out and raise more wage slaves.
>>10169People forget the nuclear family isn't dying because "people can't afford it" but because younger people just don't want it. Your average 25-year old is more likely to be queer and polyamorous than they are to be heterosexually married.
>>10170This is exactly why the PatSoc (or "socialism is conservative") view is utterly moronic. Why are they so fixated on reviving relics from capitalism (IP laws, the nuclear family, patriotism, "authentic middle American culture") when the younger generations have largely rejected those institutions/traditions? The internet has made IP laws impossible to enforce and it's no surprise then that everyone in the music biz is being sued for unlicensed sampling nowadays. Not to mention, as I've said a billion times in this thread, record companies are charging an arm and a leg for sample clearance, so it's no surprise that the serious artists just say "fuck it" and sample anyway.
But yeah, IP laws have to exist in socialism because China has them, even though they're tremendously unpopular with the generations that will actually be the ones building socialism.
>>10160Unfortunately for me the insane china guy is right that just because there are laws against it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I don't understand why you feel the need to say that there's absolutely no abuse to a practice to defend it, when it's basically impossible to think of a practice that isn't sometimes abused or used in abuse.
>>10184What makes abortion any more coercive than a woman who feels compelled to dye her hair blonde or someone to whiten their teeth in order to look more "presentable" at work?
Why is abortion a moral issue but not the others?
>>10191The term "socialism" is reduced to a buzzword when you propose that China and Chinese intellectual property law is not socialist.
Arguments against the Chinese Communist Party and Chinese intellectual property laws are based upon buzzwords, not material analysis.
>>10179>Your average 25-year old is more likely to be queer and polyamorous than they are to be heterosexually marriedThe studies seem to say it's pretty close, but the age ranges aren't exact enough to say for sure, they seem to suggest marriage is a bit more popular still among that age group.
https://www.bgsu.edu/ncfmr/resources/data/family-profiles/brown-manning-relationship-status-trends-age-gender-fp-21-25.htmlhttps://www.statista.com/statistics/719685/american-adults-who-identify-as-homosexual-bisexual-transgender-by-generation/in any case this is a bit of a red herring to
>People forget the nuclear family isn't dying because "people can't afford it" There are a lot of people who want a nuclear family (including lgbt people, though idk how it works with the polyamorous). It's also unclear to what extent that difficulties in achieving the nuclear (or similar types… not exactly sure what counts as "nuclear" for the purposes of this discussion) are due to direct economic factors or if they're more related to the general isolation of society for instance. It should also be stated that some of what is replacing marriage is committed and monogamous cohabitations which are not married, with which there often isn't much of a difference as to the relationship.
I gave up on finding any studies of this (I could only find relevant information from a pro-marriage Mormon group, which I don't trust enough to cite) though, so for now that's all just a guess.
>>10195It's still the case that the nuclear family is no longer the norm, and that's why it makes zero sense for PatSocs and other reactionaries to prop it up or insist it's existence will be "necessary" under socialism.
Trying to appeal to white-picket-fence values is worthless at this point.
>>10195People in the past were heterosexual and monogamous because that's what was accepted.
Now that queerness and non-monogamy are way more accepted today than they were 20 years ago people are drifting away from marriage.
>>10188Those are moral issues, but obviously neither dying hair or whitening teeth should be banned. Abortion is a /more major/ issue because people have beliefs (no matter how stupid we think they are) about how "their baby was killed" which makes it a more serious issue.
There's also the fact it can be dangerous but I know in all or almost all circumstances taking the fetus to term is more dangerous, so w/e.
A good comparison I would say would be hijabs or burkas
Do I think that they're stupid as anything but a piece of fashion? Yes, as I have no belief in Islam or Christianity.
Nonetheless forcing people to not wear one is more pressingly offensive than forcing someone to dye their hair because through these subjectively stupidities it objectively causes more distress and is more against the will of the people.
>>10198Are you a man or woman?
I ask, because you seem to have a very paternalistic understanding of women's issues.
>>10199You are correct, though I don't know how what I said was paternalistic.
>>10200I wasn't talking about public opinion I was talking about the opinion of the women in question… I guess "will of the people" should have been "will of the person" to make that clear, sorry.
I'm unquestioningly pro-abortion I don't believe there is a single restriction on it I support.
>>10193In regards to China's class structure, I am not the one to ask for real materialist analysis.
https://doi.org/10.1186/s40711-020-00116-9Xin Liu from Department of Sociology, Fudan University, Shanghai, People’s Republic of China has come to the conclusion from his rigorous data-backed materialist analysis that the ruling class of china is the "command class", which is the Communist Party of China which is comprised of the proletarians and represents the interests of the proletariat. The bourgeoisie are subject to the proletariat ruling class according to this model and materialist analysis.
>>10213From the perspective of capitalism raising a child is not work, unless it is compensated for. It is a socially necessary personal good (in totality, though on the margins it often is not even socially necessary, and occasionally even a social detriment). Effectively it's a hobby.
Using the """marxist feminist""" terminology, the "uncompensated labor" of childrearing could be "solved" by forcibly taking away a child from their mother after birth, and giving it to a paid agent, either of the state or some private entity.
Do you seriously think that this would be emancipatory?
Furthermore, is it an injustice that I receive no monetary compensation for cleaning my house, eating, bathing myself, or exercising? Certainly these are all socially necessary, are they not?
<you just don't view childrearing as "real work" because you're a misogynist who stupidly thinks it's easyThe issue isn't that childrearing isn't hard enough. Obviously there are plenty of jobs that parenting decently is harder than (from what I've heard it's over half and I have no reason to doubt this). It's that it is structurally a personal good because it is not done to achieve a social function (even if it is required in aggregate), that is, it is not done (at least nowhere near primarily) for the wants of some abstract others, but it is done to fulfill personal wants.
In the imagined standard arrangement of breadwinner husband and stay at home wife (which it should be reminded was barely if at all a majority in the US in its supposed heyday and is certainly not the majority arrangement today) the husband and wife both want the child. The husband thus effectively (through marriage) pays the wife for the vast majority of the upkeep of child. Obviously in the 50s these marriages were unequal relations, and the effective payment, even by a bourgeois standard was unfair. But saying that it is the failure of society or the bourgeoisie that they do not pay for a personal good is absurd. And just like eating, it is a socially necessary personal good. Just like eating the demand for subsidization of it is sensible, but payment is ridiculous.
>>10217No. I literally said that it is socially necessary. The whole point of comparing it to eating (which obviously capitalism also requires its proles to eat), was to demonstrate that socially necessary=/=labor.
If you're talking about the time I said that it sometimes isn't socially necessary on margin, that is referring to the fact that while capitalism needs /some/ people to have children, it might not need or want /another/ person to have a child.
>>9382>>9642>>9897https://web.archive.org/web/20120218212400/http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20061127%2FENT04%2F111270003>It was near the end of summer 2005, and James Yancey was sitting in a hospital bed at Cedars-Sinai in Los Angeles.>He couldn't walk. He could barely talk. And after spending most of the winter and spring in the hospital, receiving treatment for a rare, life-threatening blood disease and other complications, he had been re-admitted.>His body was killing him, and little could be done about it.>It was a grim prognosis, but it wasn't deterring him from tinkering with his electronic drum machine.>In the sterile white hospital room, the tools of his trade surrounded him: turntables, headphones, crates of records, a sampler, his drum machine and a computer, stuff his mother and friends from L.A.-based record label Stones Throw had lugged to his hospital room. Sometimes his doctor would listen to the beats through Yancey's headphones, getting a hip-hop education from one of the best in the business.>Yancey tampered with his equipment until his hands swelled so much he could barely move them. When the pain was too intense, he'd take a break. His mother massaged his fingertips until the bones stopped aching.>Then he'd go back to work. Sometimes he'd wake her up in the middle of the night, asking to be moved from his bed to a nearby reclining chair so he could layer more hard-hitting beats atop spacey synths or other sampled sounds, his creations stored on computer. Yancey told his doctor he was proud of the work, and that all he wanted to do was finish the album.>Before September ended, he'd completed all but two songs for "Donuts," a disc that hit stores on Feb. 7, his 32nd birthday.>Three days after its release, he died.who tf makes an album when they're dying from illness??
>>10263http://chinaipr.mofcom.gov.cn/article/centralgovernment/202108/1964442.htmlRead this theory to understand how Chinese Communist intellectual property law serves the proletariat.
See the noted example. There are countless others, for China's prosperity is a testament to the viability of communist intellectual property law
>>10260The overlap is very strong though. I see no difference between ATCQ recycling a Lou Reed instrumental and Joe Hill recycling some melody from a well-known hymn.
Again, interesting how whites always get a free pass when it comes to this stuff.
>>10262>>10266>>10268I'm not going to take the bait this time. I'll just tell you you're full of shit and move on. And I'm almost certain you're one of Haz's fanboys, no?
>>10270>Blacks tend to be in denial of their own mortality. That’s why you see so much reckless living in the hood. The opposite. Black folks are much more aware of their own mortality which is why they choose to live-live rather than just survive. When you've dealt with 400 years of extreme hardship you choose to be positive and find the good in everything in order to keep you going.
If you walk into a Black church (I don't because I'm Jewish but still) you'll notice how the service is always very lively with singing and dancing. Their prayers are never solemn like white people's prayers are. They don't sulk around like white people. (I say this as someone who lived in Baltimore City for a time.) There's a reason hip hop started in the Bronx and not Kentucky, and there's a reason why Black culture resonates with so many people whereas "white culture" (LOL!) doesn't.
The amount of racism ITT is off the charts anyway, even for leftypol.
>>10273It is your negative to prove. You've consistently maintained that china is not communist and implied that their intellectual property laws are not in the interests of the proletariat.
Why are chinese communist intellectual property policies not in the interests of the proletariat?
How is communist intellectual property law incompatible with the primary stage of socialist development?
>>10270>SexNothing wrong with that.
>guns and drugsLiterally forced on them by whites.
>>10275>>10273This proves my point about Marxism being useless. How can you claim to be the same ideology and follow the same exact methodology and come to two entirely different conclusions?
I can go to a Trot party and see them promote a political program worse than the DSA’s current political program. I can go to a tankie party meeting in which all they do is fanboy modern China and modern DPRK. I can go to a Maoist org meeting where all they do is attack all other leftists for being revisionist. And I’m supposed to believe this is the same exact ideology? Please.
>>10292I am the only marxist here. I am the one who understands the historical necessity of IP law and its function in the primary stage of development of the socialist mode of production. The others are not marxists, or even leftists.
Actual marxists and actual leftists would support china, obviously.
>>10297Being a Marxist means thinking China can do no wrong?
Isn’t that undialectical?
>>10314So if I become a Marxist my entire existence has to be about cheerleading China?
This is what CPUSA did with the Soviet Union and it killed the party.
>>10315Everything that the CPC does IS in fact marxism, because the CPC applies marxist analysis and praxis to the material conditions of China. The CPC DO IN FACT use "capitalist elements", in the sense that the CPC and the Chinese proletariat have enslaved the bourgeoisie and use the bourgeoisie's mechanisms against them to establish and develop Chinese Socialist society which is based upon common ownership of property.
>>10316Yes. Any actual marxist will always cheerlead the proletarian movement and existing proletarian states. This is not mindless support, but a strategic move made as the result of unending marxist class analysis of extant material conditions.
The CPUSA did not die because they supported the Soviet Union. This very idea is porkistry. The CPUSA died due to the FBI.
>>10322China is the corporeal body of socialism. China is not the "pope" of socialism. China is the foremost example from history of a socialist society. China is the most highly developed, marxist, and most communist state of history. China is the guardian and torchbearer of the proletariat. China is the current leader of the communist movement.
The People must have a Party. If not China, then who??? What party and state is of the People????
CHINA IS MARXISM. CHINA IS SOCIALISM. CHINESE IP LAW IS SOCIALISM.
Please list your grievances with Chinese socialist intellectual property law. Why is this incompatible with socialism???
https://english.cnipa.gov.cn/col/col3068/index.html >>10324Last time I’m responding to this bait:
What are your thoughts on Chiba’s relationship with apartheid Israel?
>>10238NGL this reminds me of how Tupac (who was a comrade FYI) knew he was going to die young and allegedly told his homies what to do with his music when that day came. That’s why he made a bunch of recordings that only got released like five years after he died. Everything was strategic because he predicted his own death.
Oh hell, even Juice WRLD said “we’re not making it past 21” in his song Legends, and then he OD’d on opioids and died at 21.
>>10332Idealist
>>10330Materialist
https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs201/projects/2007-08/communism-computing-china/intelproperty.html#:~:text=Karl%20Marx%20and%20Frederick%20Engels,.%22%20From%20this%20perspective%2C%20allPatent Law in Early Communist China
Contrary to the theoretical framework that communists have on protecting intellectual property, most governments, including China, in practice have provided at least minor amounts of patent law protection. During the early years of Communist China, certain laws provided minor economic recompense to inventors. Despite this, the ideology behind these laws were of communist origins. The first laws created in China during this time were the "Provisional Regulations on the Protection of the Invention Right and the Patent Right," passed and on August 11, 1950, and the "Provisional Regulations on Awards for Inventions, Technical Improvements, and Rationalization Proposals Relating to Production of May 6." In these laws, the inventor was given a choice between a patent where they could exclude others from using the invention or a certificate of authorship. If the inventor chose to to use a patent, he was offered the following rights (Collection of Laws and Regulations of the Peole's Republic of China):
(1) He may use his own capital or form a corporation to operate an enterprise using his invention for production;
(2) he may assign the patent to another person or license it to any organization or individual;
(3) without the patentee's permission, another person may not use his invention;
(4) he may bequeath the patent right, and his heirs will enjoy the same rights as he;
(5) during the term of the patent, the patentee (or his heirs), if he has neither assigned nor licensed the patent, may request the central principal organ [the Central Bureau of Technological Management of the Finance and Economic Committee of the Government Administration Council] to convert the patent right into an invention right.
However, the state retained the power to take control of a patent at any time, thus ensuring that anything created could be forced to be transferred to public ownership. The certificate of authorship essentially gave "ownership" to the state. It provided certain benefits and monetary compensation for the inventors to incentivize this option. The government would then provide awards to those who had especially significant contributions. Tao-Tai Hsia and Kathryn A. Haun stated that rewards were up to about 250,000 yuan, or about $104,000 US dollars (At the time). These patents and certificates of authorship would last from three to fifteen years, depending on what the government decided. While this provided certain incentive to invent, control over the intellectual property was still primary held by the Communist party through the certificates and the power to take control of patents. They justified the protection because the government would use the property to make the life of everyone in society better as a whole.
Further reforms were instituted in the "Regulation on Awards and Inventions" which was issued November 3, 1963. It instituted a key statement, that "All inventions are the property of the state, and no person or unit may claim monopoly over them. All units throughout the country (including collectively owned units) may make the use of inventions essential to them."(Collection of Laws and Regulations of the Peole's Republic of China) This was to further justify patent law in the idea that all property was collectively owned by the government. Analysis of these reforms by Tao-Tai Hsia and Kathryn A. Haun leads that, "The Communist Chinese apparently found the idea of the patent ideologically unpalatable, even if its practical importance had been vitiated by the structure of the economy and the official attitude towards patents." In this reform, patents were eliminated entirely, and there were changed rewards for certificates of authorship. There became five levels of certificates, with each one justifying a certain amount of monetary compensation. The highest level rewarded 10,000 yuan and the fifth level only rewarded 500 yuan. These reforms represent the most traditional Communist views that were enacted in China during the time of their intense communist reform.
>>10079He settled quickly because he knows way more women were about to join the suit.
Also, how do you start a label and everyone involved is dead but you?
>>10379This exactly. They just don't abide by bourgeois imperialist american copyright laws, so they are able to print textbooks without paying King's ransom.
The chinese and Iranians create their own copyright law to survive and destroy western bourgeois imperialism
>>10092Anyone saying all these generalizations is reductive. There's lazy sampling and transformative sampling.
>>9923Like here. Juice world just… Plays the Bass guitar melody of one of stings songs on loop. There's no breaks, no chops, etc.
>>9860Compare that to Madlib's on All caps.
https://youtu.be/CinvG74n3uA?si=pdva4ZhIGB0HHYy3 >>10413>>10413As far as I can tell, no serious threats have been made, and no legal action is going to be taken. However, plagiarism is more akin to libel or slander in that the main crime is lying which damages a person's reputation (although this is incidental to plagiarism). For "IP theft" the issue is not lying (whether outright or by omission) about w/e, but merely using an idea, a recording, etc.
>>10416>but over intellectual property ownershipSource?
>fictitious capitalsThat's not what fictitious capital means
>exclusive rights of value extraction "from their ideas™"That's not how Youtubers make money. They make money either through advertisements (which are a form of brainwashing mostly targeted on wealthier workers, professionals, or management) or through a gift economy, which is unironically communistic (although this is somewhat subverted through waged laborers), or some combination of these. The only "value extraction" is of whatever waged (or otherwise compensated) laborers worked under the group, although since under Marxism, the whole operation doesn't even produce value, even this doesn't make any sense.
You can say he's arguing for the exclusive rights to beg for money with the backing that they actually wrote what they wrote I guess? But this is the same as arguing for not lying. Maybe you could also say he's arguing for exclusive rights to gain from advertising, but as far as I recall he doesn't mention mirroring videos, which would be the relevant case (if he was against this, this would cross my line).
>campaigns for youtube to give stronger intellectual property rightsOnce again, source? at 3:38:38 he seems to state the exact opposite
>petty-bourgeoisiePeople hate the upper middle class so fucking much that they keep on pretending that they're part of a non-working class in the Marxist sense even when there's 0 evidence that they are. A group that mostly consists of people who don't have any capital, don't sell any products, and don't employ any labor are "petty-bourgeois" apparently because
1. The successful ones are rich
2. They're annoying liberals (even if they say they aren't you know better, don't you?)
3. The ones you hate come from "rich" (upper middle class to middle middle class) backgrounds, which you despise either because you came from one too and hate your family and peers, or because you grew up poor and they seemed rich to you because actually rich people segregate themselves to such an extent that they're invisible to poor people's resentments.
Call them what they actually are: semi-independent service workers. They do the bidding of capital in a problematic way to the extent they advertise, but otherwise there is little structurally wrong with them (at least in comparison to the actual petty-bourgeiousie).
>The "content" is not a source of value, or research, but of mass waste.Value isn't a moralistic category for Marx you fucking dilettante.
>>10533I already explained it. It is intentionally lying or at least deceiving about certain things in order to get credit for something more accurately attributed to the other person. This is similar to slander in that it is a lie that (from the perspective of the person one plagiarized) is bad since it is a lie which damages their reputation (similar to slander). From the perspective of others it does not only this, but also unduly bolsters the reputation of the person who plagiarized (this is less similar to slander, though still deceptive). Sampling without permission doesn't inherently have such a deceptive element.
There are gray areas surrounding when and what you should be required to disclose (e.g. not mentioning where you got a well known paragraph likely wouldn't be deceptive, thus people don't plagiarize the emancipation proclamation, but not mentioning a less known paragraphs likely would be). But these controversies are usually hashed out on the basis of whether not disclosing would be deceptive outweighs the extent to which forcing to disclose would be obnoxious/unwieldy.
>>9642Notice when producers are interviewed all they talk about is their music. When pop stars and rappers are interviewed all they talk about is their personal lives.
Really makes you think who the real artist is.
>>10542So the issue isn't the copying but the lying/deception aspect? I see.
>>10543Read "Settlers", settler.
>>10544Correct, and it's always been that way. "Pop stars" have always been figureheads for producers, who are the actual musicians.
>>10592 (me)
Should have added too that innovative geniuses who make shit that sounds very different from others are always bound to have copycats later on. Doesn't mean they're representative.
>>10640I’m Canadian, and that’s not how MAiD works, at all. Like I get that people are freaking out over the times when people applied for MAiD because they couldn’t afford a wheelchair or whatever, but it’s not like the government is mass-killing patients. The patient has to be proactive and request assisted suicide themselves. Doctors aren’t offering it to people willy-nilly like the media wants you to believe.
>>10662>”why do distorted sample flips sound so distorted?”>>10678Yeah the album is specifically about his death and if you look at many of the samples he used you’d see they’re pretty dark. Plus he uses a lot of subliminal messages around death and dying. I can’t imagine how much pain he was probably in, trying to produce music while deteriorating away and time is running out. Takes a seriously dedicated artist to perform such a task.
Living is a choice.
>>10702>makes pro-death argument:>"lol no guize maid is good actually stop fearmongering."
>makes pro-life argument:>"it's so beautiful a dying musician would make music on his deathbed, choose life!"THE DUALITY OF MAN.
You are the worst poster on this entire website.
>>9382>VidRelThis video makes the perfect argument against sampling. The guy in the video shows how J Dilla's signature timefeel drum patterns can't be made or reproduced by a live drummer and can only be made by a drum machine. Doesn't matter if he was artsy or whatever with it. None of those "beat tapes" could ever be reproduced by a band playing live. This furthers what everyone else ITT was saying about sampling cheapening music. Traditional musicians hate sampling and electronic music overall for this very reason: machines have now made musicians who actually play instruments effectively obsolete. Producers and DJs can simply sample any guitars or drums they want and put together an instrumental without needing any IRL guitarists or drummers, and in order to play it live all they need to do is push buttons. Bands that play their instruments together are a rarity in pop music today.
I have never heard any good argument in favor of sampling and it's not too far off to say sampling is the eventual gateway to AI music. If traditional musicians have become useless, why not have all our pop music be made by robots and algorithms? It's a very real slipper slope you refuse to acknowledge.
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