[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / edu / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / wiki / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]

/siberia/ - Off-topic

"No chin, no right to speak."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)

Join our Matrix Chat <=> IRC: #leftypol on Rizon
siberia archives


 No.526305

Is "the agricultural revolution led to the devaluation of women in society" an outdated conception considering women were pretty influential in the ancient Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Indus Valley and Chinese civilizations where agriculture became established. The oppression of women seems to be a feature of the second-generation societies that followed in their wake like the Israelites, the Greeks, and Han Dynasty China.

 No.526308

>>526305
I think it's more accurate to say women being sidelined was a response to societies that were based on property rights (men felt the need to know their woman wasn't sleeping around so they could be sure their possessions passed to their blood sons) and those based on violence (men are generally stronger and more warlike than women) than agriculture per se.

 No.526313

>>526308
I'm wondering about the dialectics of the accumulation of wealth that agriculture enabled that led to that since maybe the earlier civilizations were egalitarian because they operated on a paradigm of trying to avoid scarcity but over time as it became more reliably organized and you had specialization of labour you ended up with wealth disparities and factionalism and private property that led to inheritance disputes and organized warfare becoming a pervasive factor which women were less able to participate in. Property rights wouldn't have been an issue when no one had any valuables in the first place and men are the more "expendable" sex when it comes to conflict, and having more soldiers is generally an advantage when it comes to war so boys would come to be preferred and become dominant in public affairs.

 No.526314

>the agricultural revolution
Did that actually happen?

 No.526426

>>526308
>>526313
There was lag because it took a while for the superstructure to adapt to the base and for a proper settled society to take shape. Also it's not about who's stronger or whatever - if that was relevant then male dominance could have and likely would have emerged at any time. Property is the reason for patriarchy, and it comes down to the fact that making babies to inherit your property is a lot more dangerous for women than men. If it's the women who own things and pass them down, then it's going to be a lot more common for there to be crises of inheritance. Something like 1/3 women before modern medicine died in child birth.

If a woman with property dies without kids, there's going to be argument over who inherits. If political power is involved, it's likely to get bloody. For a ruler, producing an heir is also expected which means any female rulers are going to be rolling the dice on whether they have their rule cut short by pregnancy and childbirth complications, possibly before they even have one heir. This means that matrilineal inheritance is just less stable in general, so a strictly patriarchal system has an advantage here. This is probably why you pretty much only see patriarchal rulers in "civilizations" proper - it's just not sustainable to be risking crisis that much. The element of controlling women's sexuality makes sense as a way to ensure the heirs are legitimate (something you don't have to worry about with matrilineal inheritance). The steep social imposition associated with that control implies some kind of tradeoff, like a society where you never have to worry about a political crisis because the ruler died in childbirth.

Interestingly, some of the more recent research on the topic points to agriculture itself being linked to pregnancy and childbirth complications. It's possible then that the cause and effect went something like agriculture -> maternal mortality -> patriarchy. There are some larger and more organized cultures that do follow a matrilinear inheritance method, but they are mainly seen in the Americas and may be subject to different conditions regarding agriculture and nutrition, having significantly different (and often more nutritious) staple foods. There's also speculation that because of its relatively negative health consequences, agriculture may have been forced on people, with the early adopters "civilizing" hunter gatherers into enslaved agricultural workers producing a surplus. So while the quality of life might have decline for almost everyone, the calorie output means that agricultural, patriarchal, slave societies could simply overwhelm their neighbors with sheer numbers and resources.

 No.526631

So basically men naturally have no interest in knowing if a kid is theirs if it wasn't for private property?

 No.527541

>>526426
>There are some larger and more organized cultures that do follow a matrilinear inheritance method, but they are mainly seen in the Americas and may be subject to different conditions regarding agriculture and nutrition, having significantly different (and often more nutritious) staple foods.
I considered those but I wondered if they were just matrilinear because they were in that earlier stage of civilization where private property had not yet become a dominant factor and would have ended up patriarchal somewhere down the line had they been able to develop further. However like you mentioned they had different staple crops so that would go into alt-hist.


Unique IPs: 6

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / edu / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / wiki / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]