Is DnD socialist? Is it a marxist game?
>>722766Direct real world politics really shouldn't be a part of fantasy, nor DnD by extension. You could explore broader themes that intersect with socialist and Marxist politics, such as poverty, equality, what it means to be a good person in a world that seems to have suffering ingrained into its very mechanisms.
But I think that having workers councils and actual socialist ideology is a bit much. It's hard to feel like you've been swept away to dark lands beneath strange moons if you have what is very obvious real world industrial/post-industrial politics in it.
>>722766>Is DnD socialist?No. Its a class based fantasy role playing game.
>>722766I don't think fantasy roleplay can be capitalist because then it basically ruins the possibility to be anything
>>722770>It's hard to feel like you've been swept away to dark lands beneath strange moons if you have what is very obvious real world industrial/post-industrial politics in it.Depends on the fantasy
>>722771This
Classless systems like Call of Cthulhu/BRP, however, are socialist
>>722770dumbass u get to literally experiment and make your own world why wouldnt u put politics in it
>>723014yeah but then retards here will say your world is terrible and poop if you make the politics more dystopian than MLP worldbuilding
>>723019Equestria is a theocratic ethnostate therefore it is already bad
Teletubbies is the only communist setting
>>722771RPG classes aren't the same as economic classes.
>>722766it depends
if you play it as a creative group writing activity, then it is bourgeois
if you play it as a spreadsheet min-maxing exercise, then it is socialist
the more numbers-focused and strict the rules get, the more socialist it is. when it becomes rigid enough that you can codify the gameplay into a computer to give a standardized experience to an unlimited number of players, it becomes communism
>>723179I'm a nogames poser but FATAL is filled with rape and edge and makes you roll for anal circumference, while GURPS is a hyper autistic engine with rules and supplements for almost fucking everything, so he's accurate
No, it is incredibly idealist. If you want to play a Marxist game, play Cyberpunk 2020.
>>723424>Most of the villains are racially coded as fantasy monstersOh wow.
>>722770Wow, somebody shpuld tell that to gygax who made a game about the conquest of the american west but with elves
>>724059>Wow, somebody shpuld tell that to gygax who made a game about the conquest of the american west but with elvesWhat game was that? Because it wasn't fucking D&D.
>>723583They aren't really monsters, though. They're sentient, have civilizations, and in the book are presented as having free will. Orcs in particular are based on the prejudice the romans had against the "barbaric" hordes of northern Europe. Drows have dark skin and a matriarchy because they're evil. That's why I prefer to run goblins and orcs as mute, beast-like monsters in my settings.
>>724087>They aren't really monsters, though. They're sentient, have civilizations, and in the book are presented as having free will.These two things are not incompatible.
>Orcs in particular are based on the prejudice the romans had against the "barbaric" hordes of northern Europe. Drows have dark skin and a matriarchy because they're evil.You need to get over this "a cigar is never just a cigar" brainrot. Orcs aren't based on anything historical. Drow are a matriarchy because Ed Greenwood has a femdom fetish.
>>724087>>724095Also, the dark skin of the Drow almost certainly comes from the Eddas of Snorri Sturluson, which claim that there are "Dark Elves" who live in the earth and have skin blacker than pitch, who are in conflict with the "Light Elves" who live in Álfheimr and are fairer than the sun to behold. These "Dark Elves" could also be viewed as "evil" since they aid Loki in the events leading up to Ragnarok, if you're taking a more Christianity-tinted view that Loki is basically Norse Satan.
Of course, the more common scholarly view is that these "Dark Elves" are actually the dwarfs, but that's mostly irrelevant to these fantasy depictions.
>>724062Yeah it is.
The very first adventure module that came with the game, b1 takes place in a frontier outpost and involves genociding the native "savages"
>>724123In Search of the Unknown was written by Mike Carr, not Gary Gygax, and it's about exploring a labyrinth, not colonizing a frontier.
>>724126B2 then.
The entire game's loop is about exploring an "untamed wilderness" (made up colonialist idea), killing random semi-civilized monsters, and building an outpost at level 10-ish.
The pcs have a loose affiliation to your side, but otherwise not embedded in any established society. Not serfs, not nobles, not merchants or burghers. They're colonists
>>722770I like to add in stuff like the lollards or mazdakites and other historical peasant revolts that get the term "proto-socialist" thrown at them so its not as anachronistic. I suppose you could add in something more modern in specific cases like Venice like oligarchical republic city states or a dwarf polity that is alr mass-manufacturing steam punk technology dealing with the settings first modern labor movements.
>>724129The Keep on the Borderlands is about using said keep as your base while you explore dangerous caves with monsters in them.
The player characters are fantasy adventurers. The idea that they must be colonists because they are not explicitly a part of some feudal caste is asinine.
>>724136You have an explicit instruction to wipe out orcs in the caves, and the moster list includes women and babies
The idea of an "adventurer in unexplored lands" is downstream from colonialism
>>724147>You have an explicit instruction to wipe out orcs in the caves, and the moster list includes women and babiesProofs?
>The idea of an "adventurer in unexplored lands" is downstream from colonialismMore "a cigar is never just a cigar" thinking. Many, many myths, legends and folklore which predate the colonial period take place in some adventure in unexplored lands.
I'm gonna shill Basic Fantasy RPG is the best bang for your buck introductory RPG for people with D&D trope brainrot. It feels like a nice middleground between B/X and 3.pf. Everything is available free (as in freedom CC-BY-SA) online, or available at very thin profit margins on Amazon. The author is probably one of the least reactionary people in the OSR space too which is quite refreshing.
>>724088Hitler would be a race-as-class B/X chud, yes.
>>724095>Orcs aren't based on anything historicalThey are based on ahistorical caricatures of the other as barbaric half-men. You see less of it in state sponsored propaganda these days, but think of all the libs calling Russians "orcs" for the invasion of Ukraine or how Arabs were portrayed America's invasions of the Middle East and you'll see it's still relevant. I think it's okay to enjoy genre fiction even with "problematic" cliches, but you shouldn't stick your head in the sand.
>>724178>They are based on ahistorical caricatures of the other as barbaric half-men. You see less of it in state sponsored propaganda these days, but think of all the libs calling Russians "orcs" for the invasion of Ukraine or how Arabs were portrayed America's invasions of the Middle East and you'll see it's still relevant. I think it's okay to enjoy genre fiction even with "problematic" cliches, but you shouldn't stick your head in the sand.No, not really. This is a case of refusing to accept that a cigar is ever just a cigar. Ukrainians calling Russians "orcs" has more to do with its specific history than anything inherent to orcs. You see, the USSR had a weird relationship with lots of media, including fantasy and fantasy and for a significant period of time, fantasy was outright banned. This meant that the only translations of Lord of the Rings were fan translations often done by right-wing nationalists who often editorialized their translations to make the books seem more anti-communist and anti-Russian than they actually were.
This was probably bolstered by the fact that Lord of the Rings was banned in the first place. That means its GOT to be a subversive political work, right? The old men who served as Soviet censors SURELY didn't ban Lord of the Rings for pretty much the exact same reason why many church groups in the United States have banned or attempted to ban Lord of the Rings as "demonic" and "anti-Christian." Two groups that I am sure would never have wanted to admit that they were as similar to each other as they actually were.
>>724290If we're talking Tolkein that racist cracker did the perfidious orientals siding with objective evil.
>>724383>literally the first time you see them, Tolkien injects the idea that they're probably not evil, but were brought there through threats and lies>"a lukewarm war bad take"
>3 long books of reactionary catholic drivelThe books never once mention religion, nor are they contain any significant amount of commentary on politics. It was important to Tolkien that the book be in line with his personal religious beliefs, but the book is actually not a religious or political text in any sense.
>the only non-whitoid people side with ontological evilThe Drúedain side against Sauron and, in fact, are described as some of the most stalwart opponents of the shadow, and they play an critical role in getting the Rohirrim to the Pelennor Fields in time to save Minas Tirith.
The catholic propaganda part is portraying sauron as evil
>>724290Nope, soviet censors had excellent media literacy.
For example, they had nietzsche banned, while western leftoids based their entire philosophical tradition on him
>>724399Nietzsche's entire output was incoherent rambling against modernity, he was basically the first post-modern novelist.
>There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs;
>a grim dark band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords
>a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber; behind him his followers clustered in the doorway. His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red;
>In one of the windows he caught a glimpse of a sallow face with sly, slanting eyes; but it vanished at once.
>But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.’
>they were disturbed to see half a dozen large ill-favoured Men lounging against the inn-wall; they were squint-eyed and sallow-faced.
>One of the travellers, a squint-eyed ill-favoured fellow, was foretelling that more and more people would be coming north in the near future.
>Merry himself slew the leader, a great squint-eyed brute like a huge orc.
>Presently he slipped out of the door, followed by the squint-eyed southerner: the two had been whispering together a good deal during the evening.
>The southern travellers had lost several horses and blamed the innkeeper loudly, until it became known that one of their own number had also disappeared in the night, none other than Bill Ferny’s squint-eyed companion
>>724402You misunderstand.
Nietzsche wasn't a fiction author. He wrote about his ideas directly. All of his works are directly about his philosophy and ideology. There's no "media literacy" involved.
>>724405All the more damning of the western leftoid academia who for some reason read his screeds about racial purity and enslaving the masses as "metaphors or something"
Such sprach Zarathustra is a work of fiction btw
>>724406I don't believe there was anything in Nietzsche's authentic work about racial purity and enslaving the masses. That was added in by his sister to make his work seem more pro-fascist. I do think he was a kind of reactionary, but more of the "I literally cannot stop sucking off the aristocracy" variety, not the racialist Aryan destiny variety.
media1
/ˈmiːdiə/
noun
1.
the main means of mass communication (broadcasting, publishing, and the internet) regarded collectively.
>>724403>>724404It should be noted that many of the orcs and half-orc men are squint-eyed because of a hatred of sunlight. I can sort of see how some people might interpret Tolkien's descriptions of the appearance of orcs as racially insensitive, but the orcs are in no sense meant to be Asians or whatever.
>>724412I don't know if Reddit posts are the scholarly sources I would trust above all others, but this is quickly becoming irrelevant because we're not discussing the exact nature of Nietzsche.
>>724413Actually, in all those examples the orcs and goblisn are described as SLANT eyed
The southern men are described as SQUINT eyed, and then explicitly compared to orcs multiple times
>>724415I don't see what difference that makes. Slant/squint eyed because of hatred of the sun.
>>724418I don't read German so i don't know if that translation is accurate nor what I'm actually looking at, really, aside from the word of some guy on Reddit that this is the accurate translation that was edited out by some guy.
But that has nothing to do with anything. The point is that Nietzsche was a philosopher who wrote philosophical texts. There was no need for interpretation or media literacy.
>>724547So southern men who live in the desert are squint eyed because they hate the sun?
>>724549Tell that to the entire western academia then.
>>724551Everyone who comes under significant influence of Sauron or Morgoth begin to hate the sun.
>>724554>less developed, inherently evil, and deserving of genocideYou're not talking about Tolkien's orcs here, are you?
>>724413>I can sort of see how some people might interpret Tolkien's descriptions of the appearance of orcs as racially insensitive, but the orcs are in no sense meant to be Asians or whatever.?
<Tolkien's descriptions of certain characters and races have been criticised as racist by writers including Andrew O'Hehir and Jenny Turner—especially his descriptions of Orcs and their purported similarity to 20th century stereotypes of Asians.[8][9] In a private letter, Tolkien describes orcs as:[T 1]<"squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."[T 1] >>724562>The guy from Salon said it was racistOkay, but Tolkien saying that orcs kind of look like really ugly, twisted mongols doesn't meant that they are actually intended to be mongols. It's insensitive, but not intentional racial invective.
Why can't TTRPG players contain their Hitlerism? Went to join a group as a new player and the first session they literally setup a gas chamber mass execution of "evil cultists". DM had a bunch of radlib stickers on his water bottle and laptop and you just know he would recoil if you told him to his face that he was entertaining fascist fantasies. The guy who wrote picrel was onto something. Genre fiction is fundamentally reactionary.
>>724566What are "Mongols" from a European perspective if not an invading other that poses an existential threat.
>>724582What are you gonna do about it? You think you can just stop people from having fascist fantasies? Mind control isn't real dog
I wonder what is a WW1 veteran trying to represent by a race of hateful violent sadists who despoil nature to fuel war industry. Must be the steppe nomads.
>>724589The british literally called the germans "hunns" as a carryover from their colonial racism towards asians, whom they colonized.
>>724591No, that is in fact not what that name is carry over from.
>>724582>the first session they literally setup a gas chamber mass execution of "evil cultists"What's the context for this?
>What are "Mongols" from a European perspective if not an invading other that poses an existential threat.I mean, that's exactly what the Mongols were during their conquests. They waged an unrelenting campaign of conquest, enslavement and genocide.
That said, I don't think the orcs are actually supposed to be Mongols. They're maybe Mongol-like in some superficial aspects, like some aspects of their physical appearance and a preference for scimitars, but to my knowledge the Mongols didn't burrow underground, build subterranean forges or despoil nature, and the Mongols were known mostly for wearing leather and lamellar armor, unlike the orcs who are described as wearing mail almost exclusively, nor are the orcs described as ever being on horseback or displaying any amount of Mongol culture.
If anything, comments and writing from Tolkien seem to suggest that the orcs were based at least partially on the Nazis.
>>724595And why did they latch on to that specific speech?
>>724621Because it was a shockingly brutish speech even by the standards of the time. This was a time when Europe was mostly enamored with the idea of being this high and refined society that had risen above the barbarism of the rest of the world and was now doing "civilized warfare", and here's an emperor openly telling his soldiers to be like the infamous Hun despoilers of antiquity and take no prisoners, show no mercy and win eternal fame by rite of bloodshed.
>>724639Look up basically anything about the "Hun speech" and why it got famous.
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