/siberia/ - Off-topic

Probably? Definitely.

I do think it's an utter Total Multicultural Victory that you got fucking trad CATHS with last names that include O', -zki, or something that sounds like pasta talking about the white founding fathers as if any of them would've been seen as the WASP in-group
Even in the fucking SIXTIES JFK being catholic was seen as controversial and worrisome

>>723162
>excluding the welsh and corn wall specifically
why are english people so mean towards them? i expected them to de-whitfy ireland but not these two

>>723256
To be fair he did change his opinions on race later in life.

>>723308
I asume because they are also celtic, northern Scotland is also swarthy

I mean don't the more well read reactionaries basically think the american and french revolutions is where things started going wrong?

>>723308
I always found the Catholic Church to be interesting since it's a massive,universalizing and centralized religious-linguistic* community that literally predates the emergence of nation-states and capitalism so you get a fundamentally conservative and counterrevolutionary institution that's hated by tons of modern day conservatives working with an ethnonationalist and/or neoliberal framework despite being a much much more older and traditional form of conservatism then they could even imagine.



*maybe not so linguistic after the adoption of the vernacular mass

>>723159
Thomas Jefferson also hated dogs

how does this have any relevance to 2025 Amerika. who gives a fuck what these slaveowning faggots thought

>>723362
"America First" spouting faggots do

>>723159
>>723308
99% of this is the total opposite way around actually, If Italian-Americans declared themselves as Latinx or their own superior Italia race seperate from and above whites the screeching would be 100%: These heckin white notsees
If Poles/Slavs in MuriKKKa declared themselves yellow, Persian, or their own nonwhite race of its own you'd screech at them for being white nazis.
As for the O'Macs, Irish Americans have the strongest identity of all, yet are proscribed by others as white, a no whites allowed politician celebration in boston irish weren't allowed, irish nativists in boston waved around "keep boston irish" all seethed at as hekin whiterino nazis (this is totally different from other ethnic areas preventing gentrification we identify them as le white)

even in the oldworld, swedish nativists? These heckin WHITE swedes oppose real swedish the somali and iraqis plus swedes colonized them or something and all of eurasia should perish for the crimes of france and england or something.

Not even getting into weaponizing immigration to prevent independence like as in quebec, scotland/wales, basically every non castilian region of spain, corsica, etc, etc but its le good because the exact same language and culture and motherland as the mainland that wants to stamp them out isnt a big deal if the colonists are wholesome bipoc
>MUH TRADCATHS
Nonissue, catholics as a blok are progressive, in Amerikkka they obviously want to import as much of their coreligionists as possible.

The entire chudblok is evangelical, even former ethnics in usa and all of latin america are rapidly converting to it, everything advances anglodom, the growth of that most schizo protestantism, "woke" liberal/EU etc. love of Angloness in all it's forms.

Keep shadowboxing at le heckin catholics who are le whites

Anglodom is wrecking Manifest destiny writ large globally on the entire world.
>Heh heh they lumped a bunch of separate races together and invented le white.
And you continue their legacy by vigorously enforcing it, not to mention capitalism and imperialism has long outgrown le white supremacy long ago
Your Ancestors:
>No you don't have seperate nations and languages and cultures injuns I just made up redskins and that's what you all are! No more native nations we have to import the whole world into your homeland and join together as a single english speaking empire you WILL NOT keep your language and lifestyle
(You):No you are not seperate nations races people languages and cultures nazis I just made up "white" no more native nations we have to import the whoole world and unite earth into a single anglo empire you WILL NOT keep your languages and lifestyle
exactly the same

Ban the English language worldwide, monolingually English speakers be brainwashed to speak Esperanto instead.

>>723364
I'm not shitting on Catholics
I'm shitting on catholic fundementalist white supreamicts like Nick Fuentes and adult converts who just did it for career gains like JD Vance, constantly promoting white supreacy and "REAL America" as if they were part of it
I was literally raised catholic and no one denies most of the religious fundementalist nonsense here comes from evangelical protestants(the P in WASP)
Didn't read the rest of this post btw it looks like a headache to swift through sorry uygha

>Anglodom is wrecking Manifest destiny
wtf I love anglodom now
>(You):No you are not seperate nations races people languages and cultures nazis I just made up "white" no more native nations we have to import the whoole world and unite earth into a single anglo empire you WILL NOT keep your languages and lifestyle
spooked nonsense

>>723308
The idea of bringing someone like William Luther Pierce back from the dead and showing him Nick Fuentes and Candace Owens then telling him that these two are at the forefront of American fascism amuses me. But on a similar note it does make sense that this would actually be the outcome of changing demographics under the same system, rather than the multiracial utopia where everyone looks Puerto Rican and votes for Obama. I don't follow them too closely but for that reason it does make sense that some of the Groypers are more enamored with Latin American racial ideology rather than traditional Second Klan or National Alliance white supremacism.
>>723348
Yes, a lot of them love De Maistre for example. But as you say that type of conservatism is fundamentally anachronistic as it represented opposition to liberalism which has clearly triumphed worldwide. Even right populists and conservatives have used the language of democracy, nations, the rights of man, and/or socialism, all products of the world the Catholic reactionaries sought to keep from coming about, for a century now. For every person who believes the liberal revolutions ruined everything there are probably three who think liberalism just went wrong somewhere or was hijacked by Jews or the creation of the Federal Reserve or something of that nature. Hell you can find a lot of socdems who think in a similar way minus the Protocols stuff

>>723390
>Latin American racial ideology rather than traditional Second Klan or National Alliance white supremacism.
white ethnonationalist stuff is inherently self-limiting, I've always thought a successful fascist movement in the US would be more like ᴉuᴉlossnW "race is 99% a feeling" corporatism than anything the NSDAP were doing. Well I suppose a disproportionate representation of protestant small business owners might be more of Nazi thing.

>>723390
> hijacked by Jews or the creation of the Federal Reserve or something of that nature. Hell you can find a lot of socdems who think in a similar way minus the Protocols stuff
I guess you could call it the capitalist version of good tsar bad boyars, good capital bad capitalists

>>723256
socialism with tawny characteristics

>>723809
>socialism with tawny characteristics
That made me laugh out loud, thanks

>>723364
>quebecois
>schizo
checks out

>>723348
>>723364
>>723308
For some of you, ignorance is bliss.
I assume familiarity breeds contempt, and I believe that is the case with Leftists looking between American WASPs and Catholicism in the Anglosphere.

>I always found the Catholic Church to be interesting since it's a massive,universalizing and centralized religious-linguistic* community that literally predates the emergence of nation-states and capitalism
Hard disagree here.
While it is true prior to Catholicism there were other monarchs who claimed to rule the whole world, even hardcore Catholics like GK Chesterton acknowledges that Judaism and the Nationalism of the Jews was well established way, way, way before Hitlerism.
There's also the case that the Jews wanted a King like the other nations.
Albeit yes, Conservatism as we conceive it is largely defined by Christianity, that is the ultimate crutch of Conservatives for better and worse.

>>723390
TO be frank, most of us are Liberals by that standard: even the most hardcore Conservatives are somewhat reluctant to take Christianity all the way and keep some "secularist" passions close at hand.
I think Nick Fuenties represents the naive state most Catholics are in; and I think if they knew better, they might become like rabid Jacobins themselves in reaction to and disappointment from the higher ups of the reactionary tree in a way like I am.

>>723593
>white ethnonationalist stuff is inherently self-limiting, I've always thought a successful fascist movement in the US would be more like ᴉuᴉlossnW "race is 99% a feeling" corporatism than anything the NSDAP were doing.
In a way, racism is also best fulfilled by a cult of personality, and molding a people into the characteristics one person would have – and by doing so needs a cult of personality formed, that is what I think the ᴉuᴉlossnW "race is 99% a feeling" quotation is getting at, yes, it can be frankly sometimes arbitrary even… the immanentist notions of Fascism see nationality as a work in progress, nations are continually changing their identity and self-adapting, sometimes change their names and take on a different mold.

>>723364
>Nonissue, catholics as a blok are progressive, in Amerikkka they obviously want to import as much of their coreligionists as possible.
Again, ignorance is bliss.
It is somewhat appropriate that Catholics in urban areas are more progressive and form a coalition contrary to evangelicals.
This is admiration from a distance, because the more you climb into the Catholic circles you'll notice their think tanks and commentators are also extremely PragerU-tier as well.
I guarantee you that if WASP America died and Catholics took over, people here would sooner be like Jacobins too.

>>723884
how are the old dynastic realms at all the same as the nation-states that emerged after the liberal wave of revolution? we might be using two definitions of "nation". I'm specifically talking about the modern republican nation-state with hard borders,industrial capitalism and modern citizenship not just literally any imagined community. Although I would agree judaism is an example of a religious-linguistic community older than the catholic church.

>>723887
>how are the old dynastic realms at all the same as the nation-states that emerged after the liberal wave of revolution?
They're not, because those old dynastic realms were indeed Catholic, but for Catholicism the Cathedral was a kind of Anti-Politics and the apocalyptic origins of the religion. The Cathedral represents New Jerusalem unto which Catholics escape to.
This is really a black sheep aspect of Christianity in general.
Nationalism is really just like any imagined community at its core. The Catholic attitude towards Nationalism is just the Catholic attitude towards Politics in general – it was the same even with the dynasties and their kingdoms, the ultra-clericals confidently chimed Church Sword > Political Sword.

There's a reason why there's a big divide between Christian /pol/ and neopagan /pol/ – the nationalists on /pol/ ultimately caught on to what Rousseau understood, that Christianity in particular separated Church and State, and that Christianity did not value their country the same way Antiquity did.

Compare and contrast these quotes by Cicero with

>“I am a Christian. He who answers thus has declared everything at once—his country, profession, family; the believer belongs to no city on earth but to the heavenly Jerusalem.”
- St. John Chrysostom

>"So that you may be the readier to defend the Constitution, know this: for all who have preserved their fatherland, furthered it, enriched it, there is in heaven a sure and allotted abode, where they may enjoy an immortality of happiness."
- Cicero

"For nothing happens in the world more pleasing to that supreme Deity, who governs all the universe, than those gatherings and unions of men allied by common laws, which are called states. From this place do their rulers and guardians set out, and to this place do they return."
- Cicero

"Exercise this soul in the noblest activities. Now the noblest are cares and exertions for our country's welfare."
- Cicero

"But when with a rational spirit you have surveyed the whole field, there is no social relation among them all the more close, none more dear than that which links each one of us with our country. Parents are dear; dear are children, relatives, friends; but one native land embraces all our loves; and who that is true would hesitate to give his life for her, if by his death he could render her a service?"
- Cicero

I think Rousseau's analysis is correct:
https://www.earlymoderntexts.com/assets/pdfs/rousseau1762.pdf
Rousseau's criticism of Christianity
>You may ask: ‘Why were there no wars of religion in the pagan world, where each state had its own form of worship and its own gods?’

>My reply is that just because each state had its own form of worship as well as its own government, no state distinguished its gods from its laws. Political war was also theological war; the gods had, so to speak, provinces that were fixed by the boundaries of nations. The god of one people had no right over other peoples. The gods of the pagans were not jealous gods

>This was the situation when Jesus came to set up on earth a spiritual kingdom, which, by separating the theological from the political system, destroyed the unity of the state, and caused the internal divisions that never ceased to trouble Christian peoples. This new idea of a kingdom of 'the other world' could never have occurred to pagans, so they always regarded the Christians as really rebels.

>However, as there was always a prince and civil laws as well as a church, this double power created a conflict of jurisdiction that made it impossible for Christian states to be governed well; and men never managed to discover whether they were obliged to obey the master or the priest.

>Several peoples, however, even in Europe and its neighbourhood, have tried to preserve or estore the old system–tired and failed, because the spirit of Christianity has won every time. The sacred cult has always remained or again become independent of the sovereign and not essentially linked with the body of the state.

>Among us Europeans, the Kings of England have been made heads of the Church, and the Czars have done much the same.

>The philosopher Hobbes is the only Christian writer who has seen the evil and seen how to remedy it, and has dared to propose bring the two heads of the eagle together again, restoring the total political unity without which no state or government will ever be rightly constituted. But he should have seen that Christianity's domineering spirit is incompatible with his system, and that the priest's side of the divide would always be stronger than the state's. What has drawn down hatred on his political theory is not so much what is false and terrible in it as what is just and true…

>But this religion, having no special relation to the body politic, leaves the laws with only the force they draw from themselves without adding anything to it; which means that one of the great bonds for uniting the society of the given country is left idle. Worse: so far from binding the citizens' hearts to the state, it detaches them from that and from all earthly things. I know of nothing more contrary to the social spirit.

>Christianity is an entirely spiritual religion, occupied solely with heavenly things; the Christian's country is not of this world.

>But I'm wrong to speak of a Christian republic–those terms are mutually exclusive.

I agree, if you want to see how Catholicism and Nationalism had their relationship back then, just look at the Middle East in recent history and the conflict with Arab Nationalism and other "secularist" political ideologies, and the conflict between the nationalists there and the others.

The more Liberal Pahlavi monarchists bring up a good point when they show this quote, for instance.

>"We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for PAGANISM. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world."
-Khomeini

Khomeini has a good point too: Patriotism is another name for Paganism.
Rousseau was also on point that prior to Christianity – the State and Religion generally were together, and Politics was valued more – it wasn't the case that there was an apocalypse and an another City (and if there was the idea of a City, the New Jerusalem was -that- City to destroy and replace all Cities rather than be a model unto all cities, again, like Rousseau says, the jealousy).
Even Plato said for his philosopher kings they'd have to come down and establish the community good of their political body. And Aristotle
>But, if all communities aim at some good, the state or political community, which is the highest of all, and which embraces all the rest, aims at good in a greater degree than any other, and at the highest good.
Aristotle probably inspired those quotes by Cicero (& established political virtue that Statists would see).
I think the hatred for Politics is a uniquely Christian innovation because of its apocalyptic origin and Rousseau is spot on for why conservative Christians say Politics is trashy and dismiss what was once legitimate concerns of the past… Modernity has taken this and warped it maybe more strongly in favor of Politics in reaction to Ultra-Clericalism of Christianity, but that reaction in a way was warranted.

>>723894
>This new idea of a kingdom of 'the other world' could never have occurred to pagans
Zionists invented hummus, the thought of grinding sesame seeds into slop never occurred to Palestinians! No one knew, there was no growth of food consciousness in parallel with their political economic growth in consciousness! No one knew about tahini!

>>723362
>who gives a fuck what these slaveowning faggots thought
the Trot neocons at WSWS apparently define their entire personality around it:
<On April 19, 1775, 250 years ago today, the first battles of the American Revolution took place at Lexington and Concord in Massachusetts. The day of fighting, itself the outcome of a gathering revolutionary crisis, presaged the outcome of the war: the victory of the revolution over what was then the world’s greatest power, Great Britain, and the establishment of the world’s first major modern democratic republic.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/04/19/kyta-a19.html
<Related works:
<David North, Equality, the Rights of Man and the Birth of Socialism
<Gordon Wood, The Radicalism of the American Revolution
<Bernard Bailyn, The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution