/siberia/ - Off-topic

flutes are bourgeois and the three of them get sent to reeducation camps so they learn to share

Anyone who doesn't say Child B isn't a socialist.

C must smash the flute, smash A's fingers, and smash B's tools

>>744710
The flute is a commodity fetish. It is incorrect to say the capitalist deserves their flute.

the way this is presented is genuinely idiotic. how did child b provide the materials? what social relations are in place that gave me the power to distribute the flute? how is child c's lot in life improved by having a flute that he can't play and which he presumably can't sell?

>>744714
i understand that the point is to establish possible options for an ethics of property, but it's obvious that context matters in a way that the example doesn't capture. if you chop down the only tree in the world to make something entirely with your own effort, does that belong to you even though it required material that is not yours and everyone else has now been deprived of?

>>744714
B is bourgeois. B speaks as if they chopped down the tree and mined the metals, but only wants to sell the flute. A is labor aristocrat. C is correct because C can smash the flute for firewood.
>>744715
>context matters
Wrong. Under no pretext does context matter when it is given that B is the bourgeois possessor of the flute.
>if you chop down the only tree in the world to make something entirely with your own effort, does that belong to you even though it required material that is not yours and everyone else has now been deprived of?
Lockean nonsense. Your abstractions only serve to find pretext for B to retain the flute.

I steal it from the children because I'm an adult and I sell it to Child D because they have money and can pay me.

Child A. Wanna hear some sick Jethro Tull solos.

>>744720
>under no pretext does context matter if you simply assume the context i made up that is not implied anywhere in the message
riveting, thank you. your talent for dull-headed leftyslop will do numbers on twitter once you find your way back.

>>744720
Why B would represent the bourgeoisie? She created on that flute by herself, she didn't steal surplus value from anyone. If anything child A should cooperate with child B for the betterment of society while child C is just a parasite that should be sent to a GULAG prison asap.

>>744707
Child B or A

Is this one of those non-intuitive probability exercises again? idk maybe 45%?

>>744707
break the flute in 3

Child B

I take it for myself obviously,should've come to a proper conclusion by yourselves dumbasses

Child B gets a flute as it is hers. Child A presumably already has a flute, as she knows how to play it, and I dont see how a flute would help Child C with poverty.

Children don’t exist

They're all lying to get my flute. Children are awful liars.

A

>>744710
You are a retard

>>744779
>>744742
>>744725
>>744715
>>744720
>>744720
From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs

Child B can make a flute, but the party hasn't explained to her (she represents the proletariat) that the commodities she makes aren't literally hers, but rather the value in them, which can be traded with a labour voucher for something she needs, she never mentioned she knows how to play the flute, so there is no reason to believe she needs one, she is wrongly misinterpreting what communism is.

Child C is poor, so he doesn't need a flute, he needs food, shelter and education.

The answer is A

>>744803
>From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs
that's supposed to only be true in the higher stage of communism, taking it as a universal rule is utopian. which again is why context matters.

>>744844
So you are going to give a fucking flute to B or even worse, C, instead of giving him food or anything else they need, because we have to do some who-knows-how-long first stage of communism and shit? Are you dumb?

>>744846
no, obviously i will give it to child A because we need to develop the musical productive forces. so you were right but for the wrong reasons
more seriously as i said earlier in the thread, the question as provided is stupid because we don't know enough about who these kids are and what social arrangement this is taking place in to actually answer. even your post assumes that we can give child C food, shelter and education, but this isn't an option in the original hypothetical. if that assumption were incorrect but we instead assumed child C could sell the flute to alleviate his poverty, wouldn't that be obviously preferable?

>>744707
this image is funny because glib retards on leftypol will say child B imagining because labour is entitled to all it creates, but child B is clearly the capitalist parallel when the morality is applied at the political level in the real world.
(e.g. in any real redistributive situation it becomes "the money is the product of my labour as a businessman")
they fail to grasp that this is an individuated ethical dilemma and that class dynamics therefore don't apply. as a sort of ethical instinct, socialists usually go for A (your soviet virtuoso) or C. (your latin american populists) unless they've half picked up a glib version of the LTV.

>>744762
is my preferred option. the flute is causing strife and conspicuous inequality between the children. if i smash the flute i will unite them amongst themselves and against me. moreover, they will learn the valuable lesson that authority figures are arbitrary jerks and should not be trusted.

>>744851
>even your post assumes that we can give child C food, shelter and education
I think it was implied as:
A) we as communists seek to seize the means of production
and
B) After we have seized the means of production we will allocate production to be able to gorw enough food for everyone

That's my point, the lower phase of communism isn't some dogmatic drivel about if we should grow enough food for everyone or flirt with the idea of going back to market economies because muh material conditions or whatever, it's us trying to figure out HOW we do it in that specific moment in history, "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs" is supposed to be true in every stage of communism, however during the lower stage, we simply can't fully accomplish it as we need to manage the society as a whole while at the same time facing reactionary attacks.

>>744725
Wrong. Read OP more closely. B is bourgeois. B says
>TAKE THIS FROM ME?
B created this problem is first place. A and B are the problems. B owns the flute and controls the means of producing flutes, therefore B is bourgeois. A is his agent.
>>744742
Wrong. Society is bettered by eliminating the bourgeois B and labor aristocrat A, not by giving labor aristocrats free flutes. You promulagate impossible class collaboration between labor aristocrats and bourgeoisie. You espouse the petite-bourgeois myth of small independent producer. The materials that B used to make the flute were surplus-value. B says, "I mined the materials, therefore I own it," but this is bourgeois enclosure of the commons. All raw material and labor is social product. B can be most honest and hardworking person ever, but they still bourgeois.
>>744743
Wrong.
>>744745
This problem is very intuitive. Those whose brains are washed of bourgeois ideology will grasp very soundly, but bourgeois and bourgeois minded peoples will struggle greatly.
>>744765
Wrong. You say the flute should not change hands. This is to say the capitalist society shouldnt change. This is no solution.
>>744803
Wrong. A deserves nothing. A will buy the flute from B anyways because A is labor aristocrat. You speak only in service of status quo.
>>744846
Wrong. There is no food. There is no shelter. There is only A, B, C, and the flute here. You change the question of irreconcilable property rights to a simple bourgeois utilitarian charity question.
>>744851
You demand more context to make problem easier. The context is clear. You have failed the test


OP's post is very thought provoking. I will try to bring up this apparent trilemma at the next CPUSA party-wide meeting.

>>744945
>This is to say the capitalist society shouldnt change.
Meds

>lee kuan yew school of public policy

>>744714
it's on the same level of american boomers going on abt "imagine you have two cows". I don't understand why these economic and polsci textbooks don't just use real historical examples instead of completely made up scenarios with no context.

Child B made a flute for herself, she is not a capitalist because she does not want to sell it, and now you want to take it away from her and give it either to the bydło C, or to the spoiled child A, who should already have a flute, since he knows how to play it.

>>744947
they're just summarizing the work of Amartya Sen in a book that's more about philosophy than economics. specifically it relates to his critique of rawls:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Idea_of_Justice
>He also claims that Rawls' position that there be only one possible outcome of the reflective equilibrium behind the veil of ignorance is misguided. In contrast to Rawls, Sen believes that multiple conflicting, yet just, principles may arise and that this undermines the multistep processes that Rawls laid out as leading to a perfectly just society

basically, the children exist just to illustrate that there is no "right" answer. depriving a child who can play the flute of a flute to protect property rights is unjust. stealing a flute from a child who made a flute is unjust. leaving a poor child with nothing while his talented peers prosper is unjust. you can't handwave this real world awkwardness away by going "ah, well behind the veil when you don't know what kid you are, you'd pick…"

>>744945
Retard

>>744951
>basically, the children exist just to illustrate that there is no "right" answer.
Wrong. This is in fact the bourgeoisie's anwser that says B should keep the flute and everything should he the same.
>>744948
>Child B made a flute for herself, she is not a capitalist because she does not want to sell it,
Wrong. Capitalism is not defined by selling.
>stealing a flute from a child who made a flute is unjust.
Wrong. B did not create the metals and the trees, yet B stole the metals and the trees to make the flute.
>bydło C
You are fascist. That is why you speak this way

>>744707
take the flute from all of them and destroy it
>this flute only sowed division between you therefore it was a net loss that it existed

>>744948
>Child B made a flute for herself, she is not a capitalist because she does not want to sell it, and now you want to take it away from her and give it either to the bydło C, or to the spoiled child A, who should already have a flute, since he knows how to play it.
This, child A is the fascist option

>>744714
youre just autistic man

>>744966
>This is in fact the bourgeoisie's anwser that says B should keep the flute and everything should he the same
no it isn't. the example sits in a wider context which exists to make precisely the opposite of this point (whereas glibly, rawls would say b should get the flute because in the "original position" there's a 1/3 chance you get the flute if you don't know which kid you'd be born as, while letting the creator have it is "fairest")

If you'd even skimread the wiki (I didn't even ask you to read a book!) you'd find that
>However, Sen, as part of his general critique of the contractarian tradition, states that ideas about a perfectly just world do not help redress actual existing inequality.
Sen is making precisely the opposite of the point you attribute to him. Why would he argue that
>multiple conflicting, yet just, principles may arise
If in-fact he thinks that B is unambiguously the best position?

>>744990
You are wromg. Karl Marx demonstrated that the wealth of the bourgeoisie come dripping in blood. B has stolen the lands, trees, and minerals by primitive accumulation to make the commodity fetishes.
>>745046
We dont care what the bourgeoisie thinks is fair.
> ideas about a perfectly just world do not help redress actual existing inequality.
Wrong. You speak as if what the nihilist bourgeois says is correct. Scientific socialist theory determines what actionable line is correct. Smashing the flute over A's fingers and B's head is the correct position to address inequality.

>>745145
Half of writing bait posts is knowing your mark. If someone cites a text - even Wikipedia - you've gotta pretend you're reading it otherwise it's too obvious you're yanking their chain. If you're too lazy to put that much effort in, you should leave well enough alone.
Idiot.

>>744707
I keep the flute and sell it

Violently seize the flute and force the surviving children to collectively own it.

>>745167
We dont care about the rationale behind the nihilism of the bourgeoisie's thought experiments. The bourgeois thought experiment is to be smashed like the flute.

>>744948
It doesn't say whether B plans to sell the flute or not. If not, then letting her keep it is reactionary. It's the mentality of a backward peasant who still hasn't evolved into a petty bourgeois trader

>>744720
B never mentioned anything about selling or metal you illiterate moron.

>I should own the product of my labor
<nooo that's not leftist!

No kids get the flute. I don't want em to turn into 1 of them homos or something

>>745464
Yes, that's proudhonism not marxism

The point is to socialize ownership, not to desocialize production

>>745385
Wrong.
>>745464
B cannot play the flute, therefore B cannot use the flute, therefore B will sell the flute and make more flutes to sell until he can pay someone else to make the flutes for them. This is capitalist production. B is bourgeois.

Leftypol is the best anti-communist propaganda