The old thread has reached its limit, so I decided to create a new one.
>>326492
>Trans people evoke a natural feeling of disgust
Cis men evoke disgust in me (transbian). You are just a majority so you end up, even accidentally sometimes, instituting policies oppressive to us and not caring enough to let us fix them without us having to scream. Your disgust does not matter, keep your feelings to yourself
>>326492
>Transphobia seems justified because trans people demand concessions that only benefit them (a tiny minority) at the expense of the majority
Like what? How does trans people's existence harm cis people? We already exist and the policies oppressing us don't even help you cis people, in fact it makes cis peoples lives harder too, for example
>Cis people sometimes have literal typos in birth certificate but they cant change gender
>Cis people having gender norms enforced against them to avoid appearing trans
>Cis people having trans children and realizing shit's fucked up against us
The institutions oppressing trans people are bourgeois anyway, are you even a communist wanting them abolished?
>>326492
>Because of the difficulty in accepting trans identity, trans acceptance causes group disunity. Transphobia is necessary to regain social cohesion and build solidarity
Okay why was I responding as if this is good faith, you're a fucking retard
>>326492
>Trans people are such a small minority that it doesn't make sense why accepting them is of any importance, considering the costs
Fuck you, there are no costs
>>3764Also, trans people are apparently such a tiny minority it's not worth giving them rights, and yet they're so contentious that they "cause group disunity" whatever the fuck that means and need to be oppressed in order to "regain social cohesion"? How weak is this social group that trans people are disrupting despite being such a tiny part of the population?
Transphobes are being mentally conditioned by right wing media to care about a boogeyman that's simultaneously such a small minority it's not worth giving them rights, and such a serious issue they're causing national outrages and oppressive legislation to be passed
How about yo keep your transphobic idpol nonsense elsewhere
Worthless fuck
>>3768 (me)
Fuck off, fragile mod. Leftypol is not your safe space from idiots.
>>3770tbh your questions are sort of beautiful in how banal they are when you actually understand human group behaviour. there is essentially no group to which this cannot be applied.
(I was going to retype them all, substituting "Blacks", "Gamers", "Tea drinkers", "Men", etc, but it's not worth the effort.)
>>3772tbh in actually calling it transphobia they stumble on to something true by saying the quiet part loud - active transphobia
is a necessary part of the group-unity of certain groups (like /pol/ mongs and certain kind of "no i'm not a liberal, see, i'm bigoted! don't call me liberal" pseudoleftists currently) it's just that the solution is to wind down these groups and shunt their members into new ones, rather than imagining that their context-dependent norms are some kind of natural, unchanging human eternal.
>>3774>You need modsNo-one asked for them.
>westen leftI'm not western.
>sinkExcept the part where they join the worker movement and fight cops. Solidarity works in real space. No-lives on twitter are spectacle that can be safely ignored.
>>3777Why the fuck are you even replying to that post.
see
>>3775 >>3781I believe there is a notable pattern: bandage coping mechanisms for patching up individual symptoms instead of a deeper analysis and removing or replacing the issue that causes the symptom.
Reform instead of revolution, even on a small scale. It's a mindset. It's the same with social issues, infrastructure, environmental issues, economics, politics, everything.
>>3794Congrats, you call yourself a "democratic socialist" but you actually just revealed your hand that you're at best a Nazbol who wants to collaborate with fascists to kill LGBT people
KYS
who up doing crime
>>3758why do you think you are craving attention from women still?
>>37701. Facts don't care about your feelings, snowflake.
2. You made that up. If you think it's "at your expense" to treat people respectfully you are a dumbass.
3. This is because of transphobia not trans people. Listen to yourself: "People having an issue with the trans is causing disunity, so we need more of that to have more unity."
4. Society is measured by how well it treats its lowliest members. The idea that the number of people being small excuses discrimination against them is an utterly poisonous idea.
>>3817>People having an issue with the trans is causing disunity, so we need more of that to have more unityLmao.
>>3818They are both united by being liberals too
>>3822While I understand where they're coming from to some extent, I agree with you and a lot of this is obviously fueled by people being social media rage addicts. Most people do not have any engagement with feminism as a movement or theory, perplexingly including many trans women. In my opinion we've been done a horrendous disservice by libfem's historical revisionism which has basically erased much of the history of feminism, which has left many trans women lacking in any kind of sense of solidarity with women in general as a class. People instead retreat into petty individualizing tribalism where the outgroup (cis women, esp cis lesbians) are seen as an irredeemable threat and everyone in the ingroup (trans people in general but conveniently this also tends to skew towards being inclusive of some gay men) is seen as mostly being heckin wholesome and perfect and valid. It's really depressing and alienating because it would do many trans women well to have a better understanding of feminism and how much of the theory even by people who supposedly were part of the bad evil second wave (thinking of Dworkin and Wittig) is highly relevant to the transfem experience. Instead we get this tacitly misogynistic oversimplifying nonsense about issues within a complex genealogy of ideas that are only able to be oversimplified because unlike with male thinkers, when women aren't perfectly socially useful they are discarded and demonized.
t. transfem rad/matfem
>>3828Are you capable of looking at yourself naked without feeling nauseous ?
Do your genitals upset/disgust you ?
what do you mean by "feel upset and alienated",what does it provoke in you ? tears,anxiousness ?
>>326978>>3822the TERF complaint about "death threats" always has the ring of the whining politician about it -
"all i advocated was that the state continue to hurt you with the full force of its power , and i did so in polite language, yet here you are, hurt, saying you'll kill me in very rude terms. how very unkind of you!" generally speaking, the violence of the language a person uses on the internet is inversely proportional to their power to actually affect real change*. the only alteration to this dynamic is the multiplicative force of numbers, which isn't too great a factor when dealing with a tiny percentage of the population.
(here's a fun line: 1500 people telling you to fuck off over the space of a week is worse than 1 person saying they're going to garotte you with a piano wire. that's 9 "fuck off"s an hour! 24hrs a day! for a week!)
* "or their satisfaction with exiting policy." it didn't flow well to put it up there, but this is equally relevant in the current case.
>>38281. Go to a therapist
2. Experiment expressing yourself differently. I am cis, but I paint my nails for example. I know it sounds insane, but it took courage to paint my nails for the first time. It is seen as a very feminine thing. Now it doesn't feel weird.
>>3785>I believe there is a notable pattern: bandage coping mechanisms for patching up individual symptoms instead of a deeper analysis and removing or replacing the issue that causes the symptom.>Reform instead of revolution, even on a small scale. It's a mindset. It's the same with social issues, infrastructure, environmental issues, economics, politics, everything.(NTA) Because it's generally a toss-up between barely positively effective and very negatively effective at worst or naively infeasible at best (like
>>3781 - if it's a shitpost, props).
1) Revolution is an act of collective self-defense and just as murder is justified only in self-defense so too only can revolution be. I've failed to be convinced that anything about the United States is so harmful or bad to its citizens* that mass violence against anyone is justifiable. It's hardly Nazi Germany. (*Other nations' citizens may be a different story; though a civilian for a civilian makes the whole world extinct.)
2) Even if it were morally and philosophically justified, it's a story that's repeatedly played out through history. Grandiose, ambitious goals; dramatic upheaval and implementation; miserable failure; formulation of grandiose, ambitious goals.
3) I see no inherent issue with capitalism, no matter how much Marxian literature I've read so far. Of course one can envision an evil, dastardly capitalism that plunders other societies in pursuit of wealth, and one can point to them, but obviously one can envision and point to evil communist systems. Humans will always have great capacity for evil regardless of what system they're in.
I'm pro-social in the sense that I think all people should be, no matter what, guaranteed a good standard of living and free healthcare and good wages, and comfortable housing whether they do or don't work a job, and I think discriminatory inequality and bigotry are wrong and unethical, but I've never extrapolated from any of that to "we have to get rid of capitalism; and by force, at that".
All of the most successful and resilient systems in nature and civilization are a balance and dance between two poles. Is it a coincidence the most successful, thriving countries happen to be like this? Of course, the one response, the only and always response is "they stacked the deck, confounder, manipulation, misleading: the capitalist imperialists sanctioned and subverted them the whole time and that is why they economically and politically failed, and the capitalists' history of ill-gotten gains gives them an unfair advantage: 'might makes right' is not a prescriptive way human civilization should conduct itself".
First, just on its face, if you introspect for a little, doesn't this feel vaguely cope-y? Look deep inside yourself and think. Some part of you senses the copeiness. Some part of you observes Nazis arguing about gas chamber door materials or cyanide trace levels or something and recognizes a cope when you see it.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's false, of course. Copeiness is not a fallacy or rebuttal. It's plausible the West really did singlehandedly not only have the economic and military power but the will and the Machiavellian motive to ruin every one of these countries to punish those who would oppose capitalist hegemony and to parade them as examples to the world that socialism doesn't and can't work. Even if that were indeed the case in each example, isn't that itself potentially a little telling? Why are the non-socialist countries so much more economically powerful than the socialist ones? "It was the theft and plunder and fraud and parasitism and conquering!" Of course. This has to be the root of every counter-argument, though, no? "It just is factually right." In your narrative and worldview it feels right and it's very natural to assume it's the case, but how closely have you pored over it? Not just the facts but the way you interface with them. Of course one can identify ways countries have interfered with and harmed other countries, but how much further did you go past "caught redhanded, they're bad, they're the cause, simple as"? More practically, how would you know whether you (or I) were right or wrong about this particular subject? To the best possible approximation, how much better off would they be, in all likelihood, if one eliminates such factors?
Despite not being a leftist (beyond the sense of a woke progressive liberal or whatever) myself, I do fully accept the evil of imperialism, subjugation and exploitation, and particularly capitalistic imperialism, which is imperialistic for the sake of something so devoid of existential value where at least other kinds of imperialists sometimes delude themselves with ideals about some thing or another. But why does any of that mean the only recourse is this alternative based on convenient narrative stacked upon convenient narrative, this cart-before-the-horse attempt at a scientific rationalization for pre-existing philosophical and ideological leanings (not unlike early 20th century German race science forming to codify those pre-existing values)? Why can't you accept "philosophically I am humanistic and respect the value of the life of all humans" and take on a balanced set of judgments on the bedrock of those axioms instead of wrapping it in this cloister? I know your answer is "because it's my view that Marxian theories and ideas are correct", but think about a hypothetical scenario where they weren't correct and how your internal or external actions and thoughts may differ.
The tendency towards critiques of any overarching system, including capitalism, is healthy, but I believe this is an overdose, and often a dangerous one. It leads one to more readily dehumanize others, to always feel like they have an academic, scientific, physical, real grounding for whatever is in their gut, to tend towards blaming external factors for any faults or failures observed or experienced. It's a little bit like being in a religion, just as the far-right inhabit theirs (figuratively and otherwise). I'm not trying to imply any of you are as bad as the far-right but to just maybe increase the potential of sparking recognition of the universal factors that drive humans to pursue ends via absolutist means. Also, I'm aware this post contains no actual arguments and represents just a vague expression of feeling. My intention is not to try to counter-argue but to comment on the structure of this sort of thing as a whole. I could easily write a variant of this post for almost anything, like libertarian cryptocurrency giga-enthusiasts or whatever.
Thank you for reading my blog post.
>>3848It's the result of Petty Bourgeoisie using trans people as their new way of getting people to ignore class conflict.
That, and like 10% of staunch anti-trans people here are repressed. Not that there's anything wrong with that - the modern perception of being trans leaves zero room nor reconciliation for people who want to healthily manage gender dysphoria while still maintaining a semblance of one's AGAB. To most trans women who are super repressed, like me, we're constantly stuck in this state of emotional and mental decay - we feel demanded to instantly socially and medically transition simply because we have a different gender identity than the one that we biologically possess. It's fucking terrible every day to basically be excluded from a group of people who truly understand what you experience firsthand because you don't take estrogen. And please, don't bother gaslighting me into feeling otherwise.
>>3848Because the site is full of /pol/ users and it's a way to get attention.
Though I can understand there is some jealousy of what trans people are given in some countries. Im not sure if here but in general. Like trans people in some places get their medically induced transitions covered but everyone else isnt covered for similar procedures even in caseswhen as much a psychological much need or desire for them. For example surgery to remove breast tissue in males from gynecomastia, or breast reduction in females with massive tits to point it's basically a disability, or breast implant in flat women, or a cis person to get same sex HRT if their hornone levels are low, or a man with a micropenis needing enlargment surgery. So there isn't always a need for trans specific healthcare coverage as much as for people in general that covers trans people along side cis people. The problem arises in part from treating them as a special social class of their own whether it's for them or against them. I think some people wouldn't hate on trans people so much if this coverage divide wasnt there.
>>327618
>When every post they make is about UwU trans rights or their sexual orientation it does
i deliberately entered a thread full of things that i do not like, and now i am mad. how could this be happening to me??
presumably, we might also condemn the need to have a /leftybritpol/ or /usapol/ thread on the site at all times as nationalist idpol, and we might as well just shut down /hobby/, /tech/, /games/, /anime/, /music/, /draw/, /akm/ and /roulette/ right now if "you can find this on reddit" is to be our criteria.
worst-and-foremost, your fears are unfounded. this site could actively set out to recruit the most obnoxious people from reddit and twitter and the result would still be a culture nothing like either of those sites. the basic underlying structure of an imageboard with the option of anonymity simply cannot support it.
there's a post to be made about how in the purest sense this is petty idpol on your part - our ingroup of based channers against their outgroup of twitter-tumblr-reddit-9gag-ebaumsworld-gamefaqs outsiders, but i'm too lazy to make it.
>>3864such a containment thread would serve only as a puppy farm for undesirables.
but one could impartially note that such posts "are likely to create pointless and unconstructive arguments about ‘idpol’"
oh and, since some sophist is doubtless hunt-and-pecking their away away at this point: no, simply posting about being gay, trans, etc, is not
primarily likely to start such an argument, whereas replying with a barrage of bigoted buzzwords
only serves that purpose.
>>3866not too much to ask for, and oddly for something communist-aligned, not too much to deliver. let's see.
>>3869aptly put, any communist doing that shit is either not one or a waste of one
attacking gay people does nothing to capital
>>328307Unfortunately far too many M-Ls want to pretend that the mid-20th Century was correct and should be repeated, never mind the advances and discoveries that have been made since then. Never mind that Gorky's take was ultimately mistaken. Never mind that historically, the Nazis considered homosexuality to be a severe crime.
<TROT! ULTRA! LIBERAL!Before anybody starts launching the thought-terminating cliches because I dared criticize M-L, I'm just as pro-AES as you are.
>>3887Don't forget QAnon.
>>3891Why is that egoist orgy so hilarious to me right now…
>>328271I already did talk about the topic and multiple people agreed. See
>>3781 though I doubt it's exact same thing you're thinking about but maybe there is overlap.
>>3904they really are. they love to hate on pride parades and
>muh desmond was a popular buzzword a while back but they don't really give a single shit about child beauty pageants in red states
i'm kinda wondering how many 70 y/o grandpas googled hentai after watching 2 tucker specials in a row about it though
>>3904They think a little horny is bad for kids but they're awfully silent about bullying.
In fact, alot of them think bullying is good.
>>3909yeah its fucking insane
These people are deranged psychopaths
>>3904I wouldn't say it's "the conservatives". Honestly, I'm very just opposed to that type of thinking. All of the homophobia virulently shown by working class "Conservatives" are just from pundits they (Justifiably) turned to, pundits which grifted on class conflict that started to come to a front with OWS, class conflict between neoliberal Petty Bourgeoisie.
90% of all ridiculous shit from "right-wingers" is directly from the news. News that doesn't report ground-up ideology and thought. Tucker did not go to Bumfuck, Alabama and ask everyone's opinions on massive tit lady.
>>3912Fair point. That's why I never conflate conservative with right wing.
If liberal and left ate separate things, then so are right and conservative.
In fact, conservative is a relative term.
And we all know right wing pundits are rich kids to begin with.
>>3930Same, but I fingered two girls to fit in. Also went to the strip club and got a lapdance. Also made out with several girls, before and after coming out. Eg made out with a girl friend a month ago for shits and giggles.
I'm really envious of young people who can come out really young. Growing up in a conservative society really fucked me up but thankfully I've learned to unlearn a lot of it.
>>3933I feel so bad for gay guys whom are introverted and never came out.
Not just because of fear of persecution, but rather because there's no one there for you.
>>3932Not as bad as 8chan doomer.
A bunch of melancholic neoboomers with premature midlife crisis.
>>3930Unironically, I had a fucking shit time accepting myself, hell, I still am.
So basically, I had pretty much every sign of femininity shamed out of me. That's always a good start, isn't it? Yelled at as a little kid for painting my fingernails with washable markers, generally disliked by family as a weird kid.
Anyways, age 14 comes around. I lose my virginity by fucking some chick at my middle school. Eventually high school comes around, idpol floods in with the end of Trump's term, and I begin to become a really hateful cunt - especially as the "femboy" thing becomes common. I become your classic online edgelord, marauding different shitty fbi.gov servers calling everyone a pedophile and an aids-positive faggot, so on and so forth. This is in spite of the fact that I felt nothing for any woman in my school, and I developed a bit of a crush on some guy in my autoshop class and my fucking councilor who was at least 20 years my senior.
Eventually, a few months ago, I listened to Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon, and became rapidly more accepting of myself. Maybe it's because I also graduated that year, and I moved out of the ghetto, but yeah. I still have trouble accepting myself. I still hate myself for being the gay kid every now and then, and I feel massive imposter syndrome because I still think 90% of gay people sucked at least one dude off in their car by the time they were 16.
>>3942>I hate this obsession imageboards have with using the f slurWhen you're an edgy teenage trying to fit and eventually just fuck up your already stunted lowbrow vocab for the next decade.
I still get annoyed at racial slurs but homophobia was so normalized even in the mainstream fairly recently
>>3919referring to 2nd pic
a big reason I like greek epics and tragedy is because of how massively homoerotic it even when it's not explicit. A good chunk of the illiad are the men just admiring the other men in their party for being brave/smart/hot/muscular etc - everyone rides Odysseus' dick constantly.
The men had pretty horrible views on women ,respect was only towards their male comrades, but I can't help but think the society was just really a fun time for people who engaged in homosexuality.
>>3946No i fully agree with you, i find woke idpol completely unproductive and alienating to the very peoples it tries to help (consequence of being a bunch of tumblr ideologies made by 15 year olds). I probably dislike this conservatism communism even more tho, even if i liked at first as a reaction against stupid idpolism that had taken too much place.
But now it just feel like a RW psyop they only talk about real communist theory when they try to say gay/trans/feminist are evil bourgeois and the rest of time they just dickride any rightoid and get hooked on every culture war of them and start saying shit about how Ron Paul libertarians and small government is the true gommunism… well it's just a RW "movement" with a red coat of paint at this point.
>>3946>a centrist Nah, just a normal non-insane communist.
These "trad" types are "aesthetics > substance". If identity issues are to be set aside, it should never be to appease these reactionary communists, but to use their manpower. Same as these democratic-voting right wing communists. That said, IRL, meaning, not on Twitter, disc0rd, imageboards, twitch, etc, being bigoted against LGBT people, tolerating it from comrades, or tolerating it from organizations your org might collaborate with, very rarely if ever serves any purpose. So this idea of "putting it aside" doesn't really pan out IRL. The people pushing it usually have done no organizing, and/or have strong anti-social traits (that are way more off-putting than anything LGBT) and these anti-social tendencies inform the quasi-anti-lgbt stance.
>>3953I'm not sure I agree, Mark Fisher already pointed out that a lot of the cancel culture in 2013 has this air of anti-sociability and that's a critique a lot of the conservative comm crowd has adopted. I'm really not interested in strawmanning their ideas as I've said (not that you are) because a lot of my interests in lowering the work week and the US state overlap with there own.
I really don't think it's fair to just call it right wing ideology or whatever and be done with it - certain sects like the larouche camp are guiltier of this than others though. These are honest to god tradcaths reading Volume 3 - sometimes having a deeper understanding than my own - who just have rather prickly points regarding gender ideology or whatever.
>>3954Radlib SJW shit is a fertile soil of right wing ideology as well. I probably don't need to point to examples. I'm not necessarily saying they are right wing. I am saying that their anti-social tendencies tend to come accompanied with right wing ideology, which is sometimes easy to identify, such as esotericism, aesthetics over substance, etc.
>>3957Where are these MLs outside the internet? Where are they organizing? Do they organize or are they insulated in party forums and LARPing? Disc0rd MLs are irrelevant, not even worth mentioning.
Is so sad that the /lgbt/ thread has been placed in /siberia/ here. we were wrongfully punished and oppressed within the context of the rise of barbarism within the middle east and the spread of middle eastern religion into europe. so many people, even professed communists, are unable to read between the lines in same sex attraction and transgenderism and see nothing more than a "nothingburger," as the soviet union's delegation to the first transgender clinic in germany said, "nothing scandalous really"
sad really isnt it
>>3962based
>>3972Is it when middle eastern barbarians invade the garden of yurop? That's what
>>3966 is saying.>>3966
>>3902he also liked to rant about how fascism was homosexual and so homophobic communists use him to dogwhistle that they want to kill LGBT and exclude them from the movement. they also use him to dogwhistle that LGBT are all liberal glowies and can't possibly be socialists.
death to fascism
death to liberalism
death to imperialism
death to NATO
death to Banderites
I love my LGBT comrades
>>3991Cockshott (kinda) has a point but people run with it. There has been a real effort to replace equating progressive politics with socialism to replacing it with identity politics. The idea that going to a pride parade or believing that a child can learn about transgenders is somehow apart of this agenda is just nonsense though.
I do feel somewhat bad for more conservative leaning people too, even though I hold them in mild contempt, because modern life does make it extremely difficult to have and raise kids because of the high cost. And that's an element of society that is given far less attention than lgbt speaking points.
Saw picrel and thought of you leftypol 🥰
>>3993>you queers should go back to how you were like when everyone hated you and you were actively hunted by police and thugs, this way, we won't hate youNah, fuck you, reactionary piece of shit. We will hold anal fisting parades in your name just to see you contort yourself intellectually. Go back to /pol/.
>>3997More shit.
Reminder Lady Gaga's "born this way" is ultimately a liberal notion. You aren't "born this way", we simply are and queerness is imposed on us, implying that we are born different. Nah brah, we are born like everyone else, it is society that holds the queerness.
>>4000Jesus…. that sucks… get a different therapist for Christ's sake..
Well, if it makes you feel better, I understand what you are saying. I hope you find the strength to overcome. Anything that makes us slightly un-optimal for capital will be used to disadvantage us. It is a brutal system and we all feel unfairly disadvantaged, even if some of us are more or less disadvantaged. For liberals to even acknowledge the implications of such an observation is imposible. You will find your way, but you need to build that way every day with the small and habitual actions that will lead you to where you want to be.
>>4005This seems to be the conservative drive within parties to identify who is and isn't a worker - and not just in terms of figuring out which industries are most likely to reduce surplus value extraction like strikes in the shipping industry - they then claim that these trve proletarian being close to the means of production and understanding material reality better are not mesmerized by the spectacle of lgbt politics or whatever. This is of course completely unfounded and just stated as a fact that must be true.
Most recently infrared published a patsoc essay which reiterated this very old party line - it's been a favorite dogwhistle of MLs for years before being recently abandoned by most. The result is obvious chauvinistic male politics are pushed into the forefront as being a natural consequence of materialism or whatever (nonsense) at the expense of literally everyone else who is just practicing identity politics and deserves a struggle session.
We should at all times point out that this chauvinism - often rooted in religious values - is actually idealism and that nature permits everything not just the interests of straight men.
>>4006Well said.
I love this meme template because it's hot and it triggers the lib communist's defense mechanism (and a semi erection).
>>4007>We should at all times point out that this chauvinism - often rooted in religious values - is actually idealismHow do we combat it though? It seems that this liberalism is deeply rooted in all these "muh PMCs!" types, patsocs, and the new wave of vulgar anti-imperialists who uncritically support anti-imperialist countries political leadership. It often feels like its the same people, like they understand the economic basis forcontemporary politics, but nothing else.
There's also the aspect of anti-social behavior in many of these people. As well as people desperate to find something that gives them meaning and a sense of belonging.
If we want to tackle this IRL, we need to find ways to mitigate the issues that make people like this.
Here though, yes, we need to combat them at every turn and explain why they are wrong, relentlessly.
>>4012Basically read Foucault, deleuze and guattari and enlightenment thinkers and you'll at least be able to point out where they are stating their values as transhistorical. Also read Lenin so whenever they cart him out you can explain the circumstances (often they were involved in an actual revolution) that led him to write that.
At all times be aware of the time and place at which thought arises.
>>4019Hmm maybe where you live. We must have different contexts because what you're saying is simply not true where I am from.
But regarding the idea that LGBT (or anyone in general) can't be cringe or else they will cause the cis straight society to cast their judgment upon us is the same idea as this guy
>>3993Unless you're the same person. In that case, the issue of bigotry is not that queer people are or aren't doing cringe stuff. The motor of bigotry is elsewhere. Cringe is also subjective and varies widely from person to person.
>>4022100%.
>>4023Lose you for what? How well are you acquantied with the LGBT scene in your city? How often do you see people in drag? When was the last time you saw a queer person being "cringe" IRL? Internet is a perverted and almost completely detached view of lived reality. Chris chan is never relevant anywhere except the internet.
>>4038There's no guide telling exactly what to do because everyone's transition is different. Basically:
>Therapist>Hair care>Skin health>Makeup>Clothes>Electrolysis hair removal for face>Voice training>HRT>FFS>SRSDon't have to do any of these
>>4039Mods aren't here to enforce your aesthetic preferences
>>4038Can she get in touch with her doctor or any local LGBT support services?
Why the fuck do adults even need to go through a therapist to transition? Surely they can make decisions about their own lives. Its bullshit.
>>4044Yeah she's got a therapist appointment soon but what should we expect? I heard they often give way too low HRT prescriptions…
>>4048I can't find out anything about local support services (doubtless they are shit) and she can't join the college's LGBT group since she's an adult learner.
>>4049>Why the fuck do adults even need to go through a therapist to transition? Surely they can make decisions about their own lives. Its bullshit.It's BS but therapists can be good. I don't "need" my therapist anymore but I see her. A voice of sanity in a difficult world.
>>4049>Yeah she's got a therapist appointment soon but what should we expect? I heard they often give way too low HRT prescriptions…Thereapists do not give HRT perscriptions, that would be doctors which she needs to find. She needs to check her blood hormone levels to see if shes being underdosed. Peoples HRT doses are different, what matters is the body's response. Ask /lgbt/ hrtgen
>>4057Please tell me how I'm enforcing heteronormativity fuck off with your undialectical Tumblr tier takes.
This is me
>>4007 >>4065Anon, sorry to tell you but that wasn't me
Anonymity and its consequences
>>4064literally yesterday mods deleted two posts responding to this post
>>3963all the posts said is that sex with strangers from grind is gross and unhealthy. In general they delete anything that disturbs the hugbox feeling of this thread which is strange because nothing about "LGBT general" suggest this must be a hugbox where you are only allowed to compliment other posters. I thought this was a place to discuss LGBT topics because they are rightfully banned from the main board.
>>4051>>4054they're not sketchy, retards. tons of people use them without problems, and bathtub estrogen (which is safe btw) isn't even what most of them sell
>>4049diyhrt.cafe
this is a place compiling trusted sites where you can get the meds, in case you can't go through the gatekeeping process or the dosages you get prescribed are too low
some of them look autistic (picrel) but most of them sell legit products
>>4080Its not even about gender or sexual liberation. Capital uses every difference we have to absolutely crush us and atomize us. The other anon is essentially claiming we should ignore things like homophobia and racism, likely because he doesn't understand how these are fundamental aspects of the oppression of people and intrinsically a part of class struggle. He'd do well to read the revolutionaries of apartheid states, including the US, as well as revolutionary socialists who fought and won for LGBT causes.
It's a complete erasure of the history of the struggle of labor movements because the anon is too much of an ignorant liberal.
>>4082>and you lose most people.This is not a real thing in IRL organizing.
>Meanwhile we have gay politicians and black capitalists that are so happy to talk about how "marginalized" they are. Oh, racism and homophobia don't exist anymore? I guess the structural issues that affect disproportionately poor black and LGBT people are finally over. Thanks Obama!
>>4082Also
>America is the entire worldReally cool!
>>4082>silly wedge issues like gays having adoptions or giving puberty blockers to kidsr/AsAGayMan I kinda agree with parts of your rant but i don't think renting a child for your personnal developpement and letting a dysphoric minors medically transition are even remotely comparable bro. One is using a completely unrelated child as an object to consoom so you can feel good about your place in the world while the other is about letting a child taking their own decision of having a normal life in the future and not offing themselves because of dysphoria or getting sent into the convertion therapy industrial complex til they're 30 and become a crackhead afterward.
BTW renting a child (adoption) is bad when it's a straight couple doing it too. Same with paid surrogacy that's just female slave labor, it's doesnt become bad just because some rich gay does it, it was bad from the start. It's bit tiring of having anti-adoption/surrogacy peoples focus on homosexuals doing it when it was made by and for straight peoples originally an they are still the main demographic doing it.
>>4089Spectacleoids pretend that the entire world's trans struggle is simply about giving kids hrt, or some stupid bathroom bill in literally where, USA, and not the all the other, major issues that trans people face.
It's sheleted retards who think only rich people are LGBT.
>>4089Idk why puberty lockers are considered scandalous for kids yet people think kids need to sign up for loans for college.
Or be subject to bullying without retribution.
>>4094Happy to hear :)
I broke up with my boyfriend of 8-9 years a few months back. All good though. Feeling good.
>>4111>babrbian warriors or the Spartan girlsThe what? Barbarian warriors? From where? Oh, from "The Place Where Barbarians Were Brutally Slaughtered". Really convincing. Oh wait, you're talking about the Scythian peoples? Whom, recent anthropological discoveries have shown did NOT have female warriors? No, you're talking about Boadicea or whatever, whose entire revolt was more close to a temper-tantrum than anything - all brutality and no change.
And the "Spartan Girls"? You mean the women who inherited wealth from male military men? Goddamn, what a repertoire.
And keep in good mind, all of these civilizations had seldom few long-term impact. They were there, they were destroyed, and they've since been forgotten.
Keep in mind - I'm a trans woman, a closeted one. I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that my (actual) gender is the superior one; at best, it's an equal.
>>4113kek what happened to "people transition to treat an illness and not because they are incels looking to get laid"
You people aren't even trying to hide how hollow and fetishist your ideology is
>>4118>None of them have healthy social livesIt's true. That's when i realized this that i stopped being transphobic and circlejerking about transhumanists all day with my rw internet friends (who were mostly all losers like me tbh, but at least i was still young).
I was genuinely convinced to be on a religious crusade everytime i was typing an anti-trans wall of text mostly made of various anti-trans states and studies i havent even read but were told were anti-transhumanist. Lolcowism made me loose so much time by forming a parasocial relationship with trans lolcows and their abusers.
I'm way healthier and productive since i stopped.
>>4120I keep saying that reactionary politics are just mommy/daddy issues. It's just failed adults whom never had a fulfilled childhood and have even worse time in adulthood.
Alot of alt rightist are found to be on the spectrum if not some other cognitive/social difficulty.
Look at the male hierarchy memes and the hardship fetishizers.
These guys think masculinity is like in the action movies, that simplicity is degenerate.
They're still stuck in a toddler mentality where they think superheroes real.
It's not unlike those entitled young women whom still cling to the infantile myth of chivalry.
Also, being young is no diagnosis for loserdom.
>>4121IDEALISM IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVILIDEALISM BEGETS EXPECTATIONS
EXPECTATIONS BEGETS ENTITLEMENT
ENTITLEMENT BEGETS INDIGNATION
INDIGNATION BEGETS INSURRECTION
INSURRECTION BEGETS REGRESSION
REGRESSION BEGETS DESPERATION
DESPERATION BEGETS IDEALISM
>>4113>too masc for femboy>too fem for 'most gays'This seems impossible tbh. There's plenty of gay or at least bi men who are into 'femboys' and its not like all or most gays are 'masc for masc' muscle jocks.
If you're less feminine than a femboy but not particularly masculine that just sounds like you're an entirely standard twink which is very popular, its my preference for sure. I can't imagine there's a place on the twink to femboy gradient that you wouldn't have tons of people attracted to you.
>>4115What? Look, honest to god, I don't know what you're going on about. I lost my virginity very early at 14 to a woman, but as it turns out, I fucking love men. Like I have an incredibly feminine sexuality and even personality, encased under hard layers of masculinity I required in order to merely survive in the poorer neighborhoods I grew up in.
But I love men, I want to please men. But the problem is that men would not feel attraction to me because I find myself in the liminal space between masculinity and femininity. I have a feminine soul within me that's extremely strong, while having a masculine body. It's not a good juxtaposition.
>>4126>I have a feminine soul within me that's extremely strong, while having a masculine bodyLiteral incel mindset+"men being feminine is bad" sexism. So glad we have a safe space for people like you.
(See, I'm being nice to the freak, don't ban me moderino)
>>4116I mean the anons didnt even talked about being trans or even considering transitioning deriously just that he was too ugly and masculine to look like a femboy and that the skittle squad dont want him.
Imageboard user have been so buckbroken by rightwing culture war that a bi guy saying "i wish fags found me attractive" can only make them sperg about transhumanists somehow.
>>4130>freakYou're a homosexual bro calm down, that's as freakish as it goes.
>>4140https://krdo.com/news/top-stories/2021/06/19/bomb-threat-in-lorson-ranch-neighborhood-friday-night/COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (KRDO) – Friday afternoon around 2:00 p.m., deputies with the El Paso County Sheriff's Offices responded to reports of a bomb threat on Rubicon Drive in the Lorson Ranch neighborhood, just south of the Colorado Springs Airport.
The suspect, 21-year old Anderson Lee Aldrich, refused to comply with deputies' orders to surrender. It was reported to the Sherrif's Office that he had a homemade bomb, multiple weapons, and ammunition.
A Tactical Support Unit, which includes the Regional Explosives Unit was called in. Around 10 homes were evacuated in the surrounding area, while an emergency text notification was sent out to homes within a 1/4-mile radius of the address.
The Regional Explosives Unit cleared both homes and did not find any explosive devices.
At around 6:00 p.m., the suspect was taken into custody and has been booked into the El Paso County Jail. Aldrich faces two counts of Felony Menacing and three counts of First-Degree Kidnapping.
https://heavy.com/news/anderson-lee-aldrich/Heavy has confirmed that Aldrich is the grandson of outgoing Republican State Assemblymember Randy Voepel, the former mayor of Santee, California. Voepel represents the 71st district in the San Diego area. There were calls to expel Voepel from the state Assembly after he made comments comparing the January 6 attacks to the Revolutionary War. Aldrich’s mother, Laura Voepel, has written posts praising Randy Voepel on Facebook and confirming he is her father.
<please flee the burgerreich if you can comrades >>4130when did i say anything about femininity being bad? serious question. all i said was there was a severe incongruity between how people immediately perceive me on a fundamental level, and how I truly feel - with no good solutions, both long term and immediate.
sounds like projection+cope
>>4143>>4140Real question what could be done against this? Realistically the police cant even be decent at stopping mass shooters that kill childrens in schools.
Small LGBT militias with guns?
>>4138Black text is the same 3 people.
Pink text is trash. LGBT struggles are already the class struggle. There is no integrating. Maybe uncovering a new vector of class struggle, but it already is part of the class struggle.
>>4149That's tragic. What a nightmare America is becoming. I went to NY and a friend was telling me about all the violence. How is any of this acceptable?
>>340401Make the world a favor and kill yourself. I mean it.
>>4146>Pink text is trash. LGBT struggles are already the class struggle.I agree but you are not the target of the meme
>Black text is the same 3 people. that's the point
>>4159the meme is shit
i know everyone here is a drooling retard or bad faith troll or both, but at least try to flash it across your limited cognition that arguing against a very deliberately stupid position gives ground to the person making it
>>4163The whole board needs to be rid of reactionaries. This thread is the vanguard keeping the rest of the board safe 🙏
May we remain strong in our resolve.
>>4166>I understand your impatience with reactionaries but I cannot simply shoot them through my screenthen don’t do anything
>>4167none of them will read your ugly wojak shit. go to fucking reddit or /pol/ and peddle wojaks to those boomer lobotomites if you care about wojak meme shit that much
>>4168You complain about me making agitprop to re-educate phobes, claiming it's useless to fight them, while simultaneously putting a needless amount of effort into fighting me.
>then don’t do anythingtake your own advice and shut your fucking mouth instead of complaining about agitprop that's on your side.
>>4171i am being abrasive on purpose
it’s because you think your shitty memes are masterpieces
>>4185>Wanting to experiment feels really wrong though, like I'm a chaser or something. nah it's only chasing if you're creepy and stalkerish about it. don't feel bad.
>I'm pretty hetero and masc in my day to day life. Not even sure I would enjoy it, but I'm just a curious little fella. I'm cishet, married, kids, and I've never had a non-straight experience but I have a lot of LGBT in my family, including some elders, so I've always felt the need to fiercely defend them from bigotry from my own kind lol. Life's strange.
>>4185>>4186Baseeed. Nothing wrong with experimentation. Everyone is flexible in their sexuality, and it is not a static thing either. People act like if you have homosexual sex once and enjoyed it, that makes you bisexual. Nah brah, we're not binary machines like that. Even if you have homo sex from time to time, that doesn't make you bi. In the real world, these things are complicated and inconsistent. It's only in the abstract that we force people's behavior into our neat LGBT boxes.
>>4184What a cunt. Disgusting how a vermin like him could have a "society" dedicated to him. Mediocre ghouls.
What is Cuckerson doing recently? I'm not aware. Last I heard was him reporting on the huge titties teacher.
>>4185Damn. Based Xiu Xiu enjoyer.
>Wanting to experiment feels really wrong though, like I'm a chaser or something. I'm pretty hetero and masc in my day to day life. Not even sure I would enjoy it, but I'm just a curious little fella.Been there, done that. Sort of. Before I withdrew from the straight dating scene, I went on dates with about half a dozen men because I figured it's statistically more likely that I'm straight and this is just what I'm supposed to do as a young adult. Failing to feel anything for a man, I spent a long time reflecting on the possibility I'm attracted to other women and that my feelings about them (and about men) are not in fact shared by straight women. To tell the truth, I still wonder, "what if I'm not gay?", "what if I just psyop'd myself into thinking this?". There's no harm in thinking things through and trying things out, and if turns out not to be, you can cross that bridge when you get to it.
Think about it this way: people go on first dates with people without knowing they're really attracted to them literally all the time, so how's it any different if you do it with a trans woman or a feminine man? You're not wasting their time or manipulating them any more than cishet people on a first date who happen to not have a mutual spark. And the fact that you wonder if you're a chaser means you probably aren't one. Don't worry about feeling like you're expected to go straight to railing someone either. Plenty of people would rather hang out a few times to get to know you so you can have time to process if you end up deciding to start meeting people. </corny rant>
>>4186> I'm cishet, married, kids, and I've never had a non-straight experience but I have a lot of LGBT in my family, including some elders, so I've always felt the need to fiercely defend them from bigotry from my own kind lol. Life's strange.I'm glad we have allies like you, anon.
>>4192></comfy rant>Fixed
>>4190Maybe spreading boundless hate does nothing to solve the problem, or help the victims, or anything really, and it opens up for shit like what Poole is saying.
Next thread should be on /leftypol/. I'm tired of the nu-nazboloids that have been coming in lately and think they are in good company.
>>4195That encapsulates it pretty well.
Attention to sex-havers in Canada
https://www.gofreddie.com/Telemedicine clinic that streamlines getting PrEP prescriptions
>>4208nice. I'll let my friend in vancouver know. The sonovabich has been taking a friends prep to "ramp up" until he gets his.
>>4201nice.
>>4199fuck!
>>4198It's a war! We need to push the nazbolids out.
>>4211>>4212i havent taken it but ive been considering it. I hear the newer drug doesnt have the weird osteoporosis issue so its basically safe now.
apparently you also lose weight on it initially which is chill.
>>4216Of course, but HIV is particularly tricky compared to basically all major viruses.
We've been testing breakthrough science in HIV vaccines to very limited success. There's basically only one vaccine that kinda works, and only provides a maximum of 60% of immunological protection. The most recent wonder vaccine turned out to only provide 25% protection. The new mRNA vaccines will enter phase 1 by 2023, which is nice, but it is unlikely that these will bare any fruit soon. What is likely to happen is that if they have any efficacy, it will be low, and old HIV vaccine techniques will be adapted to the new mRNA technique in future trials. Even then, mRNA is not magic. There's nothing inherently in mRNA style vaccines that obviously overcome the challenges that HIV poses.
There's a question here of ethics. Among drug users, men who have sex with men, and Africans from countries particularly hit by HIV, is a lower efficacy vaccine worth making available? I'd say yes, tbh. Reducing the number of HIV patients is a net win, and for high risk individuals with no access to PrEP, like drug users and sex workers, it might be the best chance they have.
The best we have now is PrEP. It effectively lowers the risk of HIV between two users of PrEP to acceptable levels. I still think bareback with strangers is a bit iffy, but PrEP really does provide good protection.
If you plan on having sex with people who have anal sex, then PrEP is the best we have in terms of protection. Waiting for a vaccine is waiting for Godot.
>>4219Pretty common actually.
https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/the-straight-men-of-the-rural-midwest-who-have-sex-with-each-other-2>When was the last time you went out for a cup of coffee with another straight friend and sucked him off afterward?I call it a friendjob.
>>4225it's not happening for most because god hates us
>>4227are they popular though? i feel like this is just spectacle
>>4226there are pregnant women making medicines?
how
>>4230That's because lots of LGBT have to grind and hustle hard to be rich enough so they can live in some high-security high-trust high-income neighbordhood so they wont get hatecrimed by one of their conservative coworker at the factory they would be working in if they were poor.
It's actually kind of sad.
>>4236Have you tried the bumble friends option?
Why "no apps"?
Otherwise, you can cold approach people in gay spaces and talk to them. Try to befriend them. Get their numbers and message them later asking them if they want to hang out.
>>4227a drag queen is kinda like a gay clown, it has to be like
>>4233 said, like 50 wokescold parents doing something that isn't particularly scandalous but god damn I'm too impoverished to bother hanging out listening to drag queens read books, if I wanted to be around drag queens I'd go somewhere that there might at least be people I could meet/date like a gay club but even then, we had the terrorist attack against the gay club recently.
The drag queen reading thing isn't scandalous but it's potent propaganda for reactionary schizos
>>3757Look at all the reactionary takes in this thread
https://leftypol.org/siberia/res/348252.htmlGetting sick of it girls
>>4250There are so many reactionaries who claim to be sympathetic to communism and yet refuse to give up their bigotries. They think to do so is to kneel to the spectacle of identity politics. Their unwarranted and unprovoked hostility to LGBT people, I repeat,
people, is propped up by the flimsy premise that LGBT people are somehow a "westoid think tank." Rather than a coalition of marginalized people. Whenever they dare to engage us in conversation, they begin by deliberately assuming that LGBT and their cishet allies are averse to class consciousness without even consulting us on the matter. Then, once their assumption has been established, they continue to beat us over the head with it because it provides a justification to their bigotry. We can disavow capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism in all its forms, or even show that we live outside the imperial core, but it doesn't matter. Simply *being LGBT* and expressing the desire to not be treated like utter shit by comrades on that basis is dismissed by them as trying to drive a wedge into the anti-capitalist community using idpol, or being on the pay roll of some think tank. It doesn't matter if LGBT people are on the backpedal. The context of the conversation never seems to matter. It doesn't matter who fired shots first. The most irritating thing they do is to claim that LGBTphobia is somehow inherent to an indigenous culture that we are "erasing" with our wicked ways. They will use their own ethnonationalist identity politics as a human shield to justify bigotry before we even bring anything up. Two men kissing is a violation of their rights and their indigenous culture. A trans person existing in their vicinity represents the destruction of their family unit. They *must* intervene to stop others living their lives because *they* are the ones being attacked. The most slimy thing they do is when they insist LGBT are "fine but need to keep it in the bedroom." as though cishet public displays of love are perfectly normal and OK but LGBT displays of love and affection are inherently fun and corrupt. Then, when imperial core porky attempts to do pinkwashing in an attempt to shore up marketing demographics, LGBT are cast by them as somehow being lackeys of porky. Most of the people doing this kind of rhetoric wouldn't dare pretend that black people are somehow inherently capitalist because a bunch of bourgeois think tanks claim to represent them. So why do it with LGBT? Because they are the scapegoat of the moment. Then they do this insufferable waffling over the acronym. "Oh, fags aren't a problem on their own, but LGBT isn't a REAL group it's an acronym that represents Western Imperialism!"
it makes me fucking sick. all they have to do is stop attacking us and stop bringing us up. But they're always the first to bitch about us, and then
a request that they stop attacking us and start attacking capitalism is dismissed as us failing to be anticapitalist enough! >>4253>inherently fun and corrupt.*d3gen3r4t3
(word filtered)
>>4255The eyesore illustration of the heroic armoured horse-riding policeman riding down 3 unarmed people clashes heavily with the awkward attempt at a Soviet poster style
Also I love how Slavs are homophobic in the same way that they’re anti-semitic. Apparently there’s a global LGBT deep state out there threatening them somehow
>>4253Good post.
Several random points to add:
These people don't exist outside the internet.
Homophobia reinforces masculinity. These people hold an implicit premise that masculinity is the ultimate being of a man. Homophobia stems from gender non-conformity. It is specifically going against the ideal of masculinity. Masculinity and the obsessive pursuit of masculinity is taken as something for granted in men.
Women aren't really concerned about being de-feminized. It's not a central drive in feminity. Whereas emasculation is. There is no real equivalent to emasculation for women.
The prevailing assumption of the male need to be masculine (and not be emasculated), is founded on the idea that men are superior to women.
Hence, male chauvinism is at the root of homophobia, emasculation, incel ideology, misogyny, transphobia, etc.
This male chauvinism also affects straight people. It is out of this impossible demand to become masculine that they must put down others to assert their own masculinity, but it is never enough. It is the driver of all of these Andrew Tate characters that men love because they get told that they're powerful and macho. It is also related to the promise of obscene enjoyment that comes out of fascism, which is also why their politics tend to align with fascists or mirror that of fascism with red-coated fantasies. The promise of obscene enjoyment of fascism is the promise of the realization of pure masculinity, be it rape, killing, torture, power, or whatever other domination fantasy it might be.
We made fun of /pol/ retards shooting up malls and shit, "no chin, no right to speak" as the Siberian slogan says. It is effective because it strikes at the core of the motor of their fascism, gender nonconformity. I will say that again for the people in the back. The chinless insult against /pol/ is effective because it strikes at the core of the insecurity that drives their fascism, which is being gender noncomforming, particularly not conforming to the impossible ideal of masculinity, therefore always being in a state of being "cucked" and mogged.
We here at leftypol have advanced the discourse regarding anti-idpol very well, and more so than other places. Unfortunately, due to the influx of new users, the exodus of old users, and the non-discussion of this topic, it seems that the right wing perspective is the loudest one sometimes. It was great when we broke the liberal essentialists ideology of idpol in 2016, it was great when we broke through the liberal narrative of "trans women are women" by accepting the premise but also rejecting the idea of womanhood as a valid concept to begin with, we've rejected the liberal claims of Yankee black ethno nationalism and Sakaists, we've moved forward and dismantled the liberal core of these seemingly progressive ideologies, revealing in them the revolutionary truth within them, and shedding the liberal dead weight.
We need to continue this tradition by attacking with a vicious fierceness and unrelenting spirit the reactionary ideology of masculinity that is a cancer to this community, to ourselves as individuals, and to society more generally. The ideology of masculinity must be resisted, we cannot yield an inch to reactionary nazbol, and other internet fiends. It infects our very souls by making us feel insufficient, inferior, inadequate, and isolated, and particularly so for men.
Comrades, I make the appeal to you that we take this upon ourselves and push it forward.
>>4266>Women aren't really concerned about being de-feminized.Some of them in fact are, but they are fewer in number because they are more likely to see gender roles for women as restrictive than men are to see gender roles for men as restrictive. But the main reason you see this less is because femininity is not conceived of as something contingent in the same way that masculinity is. Women don't have to achieve femininity (except trans women in some people's minds), but they have it by default and can have it "damaged" or "destroyed" by various things, usually relating to sexual promiscuity. The feminine version of emasculation is often being a rape victim, and indeed many many women are afraid of being "violated" or "degraded," and not simply in the sense of being wronged or traumatized as a person but in the sense that some "womanhood" quality is deteriorated, because (as with emasculation for men) that often is the social reality.
>The prevailing assumption of the male need to be masculine (and not be emasculated), is founded on the idea that men are superior to women. Not really. It's founded on the biological fact that emasculation/castration in a literal sense is a real possibility and used to be a social reality in many cultures. And it's not specific to straight men. The English government chemically castrated Alan Turing for fuck's sake. There is a reason that an association exists between eunuchs and gay men, and it's not just that losing your dick and/or balls can make you resort to prostate stimulation. Castration as punishment for sexual "deviancy" is a tendency that has long existed and in fact something that right wingers sometimes continue to fantasize about, although these impulses are more often directed toward pedophiles or other sexual predators rather than simply "deviants." We also shouldn't forget that forced sterilization is a very real and ongoing practice, which affects women at least as much as men and is an intentional act of genocidal eugenics.
>This male chauvinism also affects straight people. It is out of this impossible demand to become masculine that they must put down others to assert their own masculinity, but it is never enough.The reason they fear emasculation (literal or metaphorical) is because they want to do it and fear that if they don't measure up to their own standards that it will happen to them. Their folly is not masculinity itself but a failure to conceive of a world where we're not in a fierce competition to assert dominance over each other, a folly that you share. There is also a version of masculinity where "it is never enough" but not in the sense that you can't ever measure up to others, but in the sense that you can't ever finish working on yourself and helping others. The masculinity problem is not that masculinity or maleness or any such thing are intrinsically bad, but the dominance hierarchy version of these things.
We're not baboons or chimpanzees, a tournament species where a top male hoards all the females (to vastly oversimplify things), but we do have
enough of those tendencies in our evolutionary history that fascists can appeal to the vestiges of those instincts. We also have the instincts of millions of years of cooperative and communal social/sexual structures. Our closest relative is the bonobo after all. Our species is messy, but the good news is the more harmful tendencies within us don't work well in a highly developed and cooperative society, at least not without some kind of strict and repressive caste system providing a containing structure for it. It makes people too miserable and undermines their ability to function as a cohesive social unit, so it can't survive in the long run.
>We need to continue this tradition by attacking with a vicious fierceness and unrelenting spirit the reactionary ideology of masculinity that is a cancer to this community, to ourselves as individuals, and to society more generally.Male chauvinism and masculinity are not the same thing, and conflating the two like you are doing plays into right wing narratives that the left wants to take your penis away, while also erasing the real history of repressive social systems
actually taking people's penis away, often literally. Stop it.
>>4282I'm not sure if you're concern trolling right now
mods aren't all straight.
>>4290Thank you so much
;_;
>>4278Yes that's what I was saying.
Work on your reading comprehension before you call people morons for your own errors.
>>4287>>4288A lot of gay men are literally indistinguishable from straight men unless you know they're gay. To say being gay is un-masculine you have to resort to "because reasons," as if having sex with women is a key part of masculinity (and there are plenty of men who are bisexual who are indistinguishable from straight men).
>>4288Masculinity is just aesthetics. It's all about whom can acquire the most, hit harder, fuck more, etc.
Masculinity is just suicidal theatrics men shame themselves and male youth into.
God forbid that appreciation and affection for men makes them feel better bcuz "that's gay" or " makes em soft".
Women, at least the young ones, are worshipped for having a vagina.
>>4298That's what I meant to say.
In ancient societies, girls whom are sterile were stigmatized.
Older women were viewed as witches.
Even now, most of our female protagonists in pop culture are always young, max age of thirty five.
Older female protagonists are always given edgy/vulgar traits.
>>3949Idol ironically is more created by adults than by underage.
It's just easier to blame kids for all faux pas bcuz they don't have rights.
>>4301that IDPol thread on /leftypol/ showed it
these guys don't come to the conclusion that transgender people are automatically IDPol bodies and spaces shit from their ideology, they just don't want to have to have transgender people, who get drawn to communism at a higher rate as a discriminated against group, around them in organizations/parties. whatever the fuck "IDPol" is is so transient you get these chauvinist class reductionists writing speel like "identities are exclusionary" as if you can't feel yourself to be prolaterian and transgender at the same time
absolute dog shite
>>4305they aren't
that's a psyop
>>4309yeah /lgbt/ is like the only place where having vaguely leftist opinions is even remotely acceptable.
Hell you can even criticize capitalism there unlike in the rest of 4chan where sales figures is the sole determinate of how good a piece of media is.
>>4317The ukraine thread is nothing but rightists who think they're leftists because they sided with the underdog. I'm so tired of those ghouls.
>>4318>>4319Yeah mods are into it too and there is no saving this site from it, this site is in a downfall and there is not saving it from it.
>>4320>The ukraine thread is nothing but rightists who think they're leftistsMore like "pretend they are leftists", because when all this shi started and i was still active on those thread, after certain amount of arguments ziggers almost always devolved into being schizo putinists talking about how putin took down oligarchs, rebuilt the russian industry and so on. Sometimes it was like "he was bad, now he is good", like he is surely gonna build communism and restore USSR.
>Yeah mods are into it too and there is no saving this site from it, this site is in a downfall and there is not saving it from it.Kinda like the whole world if i am being honest. I am not a doomer but the whole situation just doesn't look like it's gonna go in our favor, more like this is the last century of our civilization. Or maybe even a humanity.
>>4326If you don't conflate respect with "follow what LGBTQ organizations are saying" i don't mind, but they usually glow like fuck and probably curated by real glowies to reduce class consciousness.
I will call you brother (or sister, i don't give a crap) regardless if you are trans, gay, lesbo, black, jew or whatever as long as you are for socialist revolution and proletarian dictatorship and don't do "class reductionist brocialist scum" bull.
>>4329>dont kill usIf you don't stand against revolution, why would we kill you? Aren't you overblowing this? Yeah i know plenty of socialist who hold somewhat boomer views on gays and shit, but i don't think there are socialist who would say somethign even remotely close to this.
>let us get marriedI mean, the institute of marriage is the product of forms of private property. With their abolishment isn't this kinda a non issue?
>What organizations?All kinda of "left" liberal organizations that tend to promote this view that opressions is like very intersectional and class is just another way of opression. This is erasure of class consciousness to the same vien is nationalism is - creation of interclass identity. You are all one because you are all americans, blacks, gays, women and so on, don't mind that some of you are capitalists, after all to properly represent your interests you just need more gays/women/blacks in the parlament/ceo positions, not some outdated proletarian revolution. If you agree with that than we are definitely not friends, more likely we are enemies, but not because you are gay or something.
>>4328>This shit is kinda telling tho. Anon, you do understand that communism is the only path to survival of humanity, right? Like if we don't build communism, we are not gonna survive as human civilization, right? Not only that we will severely fuck up our planet, so possibly we will even end as species. Anon are you telling me that you are willing to throw the fucking white flag because a couple of socialist hold less than perfect (from your perspective) views? Is that what you are telling me? That saving humanity from insane amount of suffering is not worth it if you don't get everything that you want? Please tell me i am reading you wrong.Nice, I express that I'm lgbt and I expect rights for lgbt people and you immediately start talking at me as if I'm not a communist and start communist-splaining me based on that assumption. This is part if the problem. How is what I said implying any of the nonsense you said after your first sentence? Analyze your unconscious biases and figure out why you immediately assumed I'm not a communist.
Now let's communist-splain you a bit. What makes you think proles can assume socialism or communism are developing well if there are still segments of the population even capable if maintaining their original capitalist-maintained oppressions even after a socialism is supposedly under construction ? Maybe you misunderstood the meaning if the phrase "canary in the coal mine". When the coal mine runs out of air the canary dies first before the human miners. If the humans see the dead canary they immediately evacuate the mine because something is wrong. Similarly, if lgbt proles are being oppressed still, something is wrong, something that is probably still affecting or can or will affect non-lgbt proles in the near future.
>>4324>pretend they are leftistsSome of them pretend, other are sincere, they think leftism is just being a contrarian and nothing else.
> more like this is the last century of our civilization. Or maybe even a humanity.Civilization will go on for a while it'll just get worse.
>>4325To be fair an lgbt general would had been a magnet for trolling but if the mods can babysit the ukraine general they should babysit the lgbt general too
>>4326If we can't guarantee lgbt rights then no other rights can be guaranteed because it means the ruling class is not willing to make concessions or negotiate.
rights and freedoms have to be universal and we have to fight for the rights we don't use or else we're harming the rights we do use.
Also holy shit the replays to this post are awful "i have no prioblem with gays as long they're on the side of the revolution", I hate this messianic talk about revolution where people wants to sit down, do some preformative acts and expect people to revolt by themselves, deplorable.
>>4333That's an idiotic position. Socialist aren't some ubermensch who can just ignore material conditions. We grew up in capitalist society, we are irreversibly fucked by it. Expecting for socialists to be some kind of pure ideal representation of all that is good and not holding several reactionary or just retarded views is even more retarded.
Read what Lenin write about socialism and religion
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htmWhile it is obvious that religious institutions are instruments of oppression of the ruling class, doesn't mean that socialist can't be religious for precisely stated above reasons. If you gonna wait for perfect socialists you might as well slit your wrists because the only thing that you will get from that waiting is fascists taking over and burning people like you on a stake or something.
>>4335> you immediately start talking at me as if I'm not a communistThat's not what i have said. What i reacted to was you saying "we don't need communism unless it exactly what i want". Yes, let's abondon the idea of freeing the humanity for endless suffering of class society and commodity production. from slavery and war because after all some socialist may not be too ken on gay marriage (not that the marriage itself gonna exist most likely when communism is achieved). That is the kind of thinking i am talking about. And that has nothing to do with your orientation, i say same things to everybody because most people have some sort of brainworm from capitalism that works against class consciousness wherever it is gay rights, nationalism, feminism, veganism, liberalism or whatever. Personally i am fine with gays and if you want to get married (for some reason that completely eludes me) be my guest. You probably gonna be pissed that i put nationalism and feminism in the same place, but if you think about what i have said, you may understand why.
It's not a canary is some fucking coal mine, it's you engaging in some purism and not gettig you priorities straight.
>>4336Present reality is precisely what i am talking about. I guess it jsut didn't hit you yet. Don't worry, when you are dying from starvation in some bombed to shit ruins or worked to death in some concentration camp it may dawn on you that maybe gays marrying in any church wasn't exactly the proper hill to die on. By that time i will probably be dead to, so i wouldn't be able to say "see, i was right all along".
>>4337>Some of them pretend, other are sincere, they think leftism is just being a contrarian and nothing else.Yeah, probably. We have a lot of schizo in Russia who think that communism is when you pray to icon of Stalin in orthodox church.
>>4343Stop talking in abstractions. These are very concrete oppressions were talking about here.
>don't let it be legal to murder gay people>don't make it illegal for gay people to appear in public>don't put trans women in men's prisonsEtc
Youre so far removed you have to deflect and pretend anon is speaking about ideal utopia when they are really speaking concretely
>>4342>You don't have to be an ubermensch to not be a homophobe, fucking retard scumbag. Sick of your kindIn what way i am homophobe? I don't hate gays, i don't hate them marrying or being on movies and shit, i always benn pretty openminded about stuff like that. But i do think i hate you, not because you are gay (if you are), but because you are some liberal holier than thou asshat, probably living in some rich regiong, fat on imperialist gains and values his multicultural pluralism more than you value actual emancipation of humankind because you enver bothered to check your privilige.
>>4344As proles we have to unite around our class interests first and fremost. First because it's what will allow us to bring most of the good to everybody, second because it's the only shit that will work. Splitting because of views on some really unimportant stuff liek gay marriage only works against us all regardless of position. Eventually our society will be progressive enough that we will achieve all that good shit, but it's not gonna happen now.
If you wanna bring forth the actual revolution you will have to work with people you don't always agree on, wherever it would be some religious nutjob, homophobe or just an asshole like me. Otherwise we all will loose.
>>4346Stop larping. Youre in the lgbt thread. I can write that same shit you are writing right niw too yiu know.
Do some self crit and find out why lgbt people are sick of you not even giving us 10 forum posts of consideration let alone rights after your made up revolution. Now you call me a liberal too. I think k youre a larper. Retard
>>4345>don't let it be legal to murder gay peopleHow about just "don't let it be legal to murder people"? Are you talking about some middle eastern or african countries? Because even in Russia (we are mildly homophobic) you won't get off with crap like that. Murder is murder.
>don't make it illegal for gay people to appear in publicOk.
>don't put trans women in men's prisonsCan we put trans men in women's prisons tho?
On a serious note the prison system gonna be reworked heavily. Separation by gender would probably one thing i abolish entirely. Maybe with the exception of some really nasty stuff like rapists, murderers and serial killers.
>>4347>Youre in the lgbt thread.I actually didn't notice. I was browsing siberia and saw post shitting on ziggers and joined.
>sick of you not even giving us 10 forum posts of considerationFucker, am i the mod or something? If it would be in my power i wouldn't put serious thread in siberia. The ukraine clown shit deserves it more.
>>4348I don't think you know how bad the situation is anon. Its literally legal to murder trans women in the US using "trans panic defense". And its u officially legal to abuse and murder lgbt people in general almost universally, who do not get fair trials in many scenarios.
And no shit we need orison abolition. But in present reality trans women are used as political pawns in prison and are almost guaranteed to get raped and get aids. So we need reformism for those ones right now in the present. Don't call that liberalism or fuck off
>>4350> Its literally legal to murder trans women in the US using "trans panic defense".If that is true, US is way worse than Russia. Kinda ironic.
On the other hand i am pretty sure that those who can exercise this right are people with power and money or cops, right? You should see that opression even when done to minority that wouldn't suffer that oppression otherwise is still going along the class character. For some reason i don't think a poor prole can do that or that a rich trans person that can hire bodyguards, live in a guarded neighborhood and have amazing surgeries and medical attention to look more like standard image of a woman would be in danger.
For example we have a congressmen that hit a child with a car and the court allowed him to settle things with money. Does it mean it's legal in Russia to kill children? It's not a question of legality, it's a question of power and such power comes from being capitalist (or doing some important work for him like being a cop keeping proles in line).
>But in present reality trans women are used as political pawns in prison and are almost guaranteed to get raped and get aids.yeah, your prisons are even wrose than ours. Tough we do get some horrible shit happen too. Like there were news relatively about cops torturing a prisoner by raping him with a broom. Again, if you are rich you can get to much better prisons or not even get thee at all. You do understand that your problems coming not from beign trans or gay (i still don't know who you are in this regard), buut fromn being a (relatively) poor prole in a society where money cna buy you anything from bubblegum to sex change to "justice"? And still you think that if there are socialist that dont' have utterly progressive views on sexuality and orientation then we don't need socialism at all? Don't you understand that in a socialist society you will get shitload of advantages even if they don't permit gay marriages? I mean look at Cuba, they didn't start very progressive in that regard, but they have changed to the better because socialism allows for progress and betterment of society. Capitalism doesn't.
>>4351>No excuse, we need good lines on lgbt rights in every thread not just this one. Start defending g us against anti-lgbt comrades.I always profess my views on sexual orientation if they are relevant.
But also, fuck you. If you are not willing to work for bringing socialism closer just because od some stupid shit like gay marriage then i don't really care about you. Defend yourself.
>>4353>Lgbt people are working class. Obviously most are, some aren't. The point is not just being working class, but having class consciousness. If you think like a pork it doesn't matter that you are working class. If you think that you a gay first and foremost and only then you are working class - same shit. Temporarily embarassed millionaries my ass.
>>4343>This is just some idealistic bullshit. No rights are universal, they are always concrete and specific. And also always divided by class lines.you could go further on and explain how rights are not real and just spooks. But rights are starting point inside the ideological apparatus and if we're not fighting for "rights" and "welfare" then we're not fighting for socialism.
>>4352>>4353Working class is anyone who lives under wage labor, anybody can be working class and that's why the wellbeing and welfare of minorities and socially vulnerable people are also the wellbeing and welfare of the working class.
>>4356>you could go further on and explain how rights are not real and just spooks.Kinda the opposite of what i have said. Maybe read Lenin? I dunno.
>But rights are starting point inside the ideological apparatus and if we're not fighting for "rights" and "welfare" then we're not fighting for socialism.They aren't really. You should read more. And we definitely don't fight for "welfare". Well, maybe you do.
>Working class is anyone who lives under wage labor, anybody can be working class and that's why the wellbeing and welfare of minorities and socially vulnerable people are also the wellbeing and welfare of the working class.If many lgbt people are working class then helping working class is helping lgbt people. And should be the first priority. If you can't get behind that then it's on you.
>>4357>Explain why one of the most rich and famous trans women in the world was recently put into a men's prison in the US<Turner Guilford Knight Correctional CenterSome minimum security fucking resort for rich people. I fucking live in worse conditions.
>>4358>I don't care about socialism anymore. Solidarity is just a fucking pipe dream.So why should i care about you? Like, for serious? Tbh it was obvious from the start which is why i pressed it and gave you so much shit. If solidarity is pipe dream then the only ting left for you is to screech about homophobic brocialists and priviliged cis white men while the world declines in absolute reactionary shitholw and we all fucked either by nuclear war or climate change. Because you couldn't put aside some of your sensitivities and make priorities. I mean i hate religious nutjobs, but i work with them. Why can't you?
>>4359>even if even socialists are pitiful when it comes to even bothering to try to understand or care about our position, even in our own thread.I do understand your position, what is there not to understand? Perhaps you don't understand your own position fully.
>>4361One of you literally said he doesn't care about socialism. Yeah, that's what i was talking from the start - brainwashed with invented interclass identity.
>Keep coming in the lgbt threadMotehrfucker, this is a left wing board. I have more reason to actually ask what they fuck are you doing here even, if you are not about prioritizing worker class?
>Fuck off retard.Same to you pork sucker. Vote blu more, maybe that will stop fascits.
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