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File: 1686599295698.gif (317.89 KB, 418x498, omori-basil.gif)

 No.8376[View All]

a dumb little thought experiment…suppose that you're a believer that all the current forms of 'activist' leftism are failing and we are running out of time, and you come under the belief that predatory multinational CEO's are a much more efficient force for change in the world, as well as, as a group, generally far more progressive than the governments which 'rule over them'. suppose that you believe the world is already moving towards a state of increasingly centralised and interconnected capitalism. suppose that you are desperate for a solution to the climate crisis, and believe that we instantly require drastic action before global society itself collapses (and perhaps it will anyway, and simply we can only reduce the damage as much as possible). might such a person start to critically support a kind of formalist corporate anarchy, under which the state's power is dissolved (or at least, the power of monopoly issuance is shifted into the hands of these billionaires) in order to concentrate real power in the hands of more effective and competent figures? obviously not whilst eschewing other forms of anti-hierarchical action and radical anti-civ/anti-capitalist/radfem/eco-extremist/whatever-you-like dissent. many have expressed the desire to take drastic action towards saving the world– if these people were in charge of lawmaking, not only would they be able to expedite the process of lawmaking, but have much more expertise in governance. do we really have the time as a species to spend on bourgeois democracy right now– OR on the vapid activism and slow-moving cold war of intra-imperialist conflicts?

i know what i'm saying is dumb and schizo, and very much neo-reactionary, but im evaluating what options we might have remaining in the most drastic conditions in order to bring the global system to a swift change. i am getting a little desperate, and nothing seems to be working. as it stands, the left is objectively entirely ineffective as an activist movement, pretty much all modern 'activism' is ineffective. There is an irreconcilable split between the spontaneous desire to schizophrenise society, and the need for a sustained 'activist' movement that could even bring about change which must ultimately turn sour and reactionary.

Maybe such efforts are better spent ensuring that the processes that are leading to our inevitable destruction come to a grinding halt as soon as possible, regardless of how it affects one's rose-tinted moral views. From Berardi on activism:

"activism is the narcissistic response of the subject to the infinite and invasive power of capital, a response that can only leave the sctivist frustrated, humiliated and depressed", a desperate attempt to ward of depression. (…) But it’s doomed to fail and, worse, to convert political innovation and sociality into its opposite, to 'replace desire with duty'"

don't bother taking this thread too seriously.
149 posts and 13 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.8526

>>8523
I never said the former. I agree with what ur saying that it doesn’t change the facts. But it also isn’t a useful model for looking at the locus of history right NOW, because things are already changing drastically..

 No.8527

>>8525
The citation is in Desert. You should read it, it’s better than doing it through an offhand internet discussion.

 No.8528

>>8524
get over yourself

 No.8529

>>8527
How long do we have then

 No.8530

>>8488
>society will be unrecognisable to what it is today
good uygha, society as it exists today is literally the bourgeoisie enjoying the fruits of a socialized economy while proles eat dirt and are humiliated daily, if socialism comes at the price of a revolutionary holocaust then I will welcome it

 No.8531

>>8529
We’re already too late to save it, we’re in harm reduction phase. 30-50 years before the collapse enters full swing probably

 No.8532

>>8530
Please, touch some grass. We are not talking about le revolutionary holocaust. We are talking about a regular holocaust.

 No.8533

>>8531
Give me the quantitative evidence from multiple sources to back this baseless qualitative claim.

 No.8534

>>8532
even better

 No.8535

>>8533
You know climate science this isnt exactly fringe science right ? Google nasa climate data projections

 No.8536

>>8535
No evidence? As expected from someone who holds post-left gobbledygook in such high regar. Every Marxist cites data (sometimes too pedantically) but anarchist-nihilists never do. You know why? Cause your just a bunch brats

 No.8537

>>8536
In the biz we call this ‘bad faith’. It is common knowledge that the world is currently hurtling towards climate catastrophe. Don’t see what this has to do with ‘post-left’ or ‘nihilism’ you weirdo.

https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/16/is-it-too-late-to-prevent-climate-change/
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2108146119
https://www.ipcc.ch/2021/08/09/ar6-wg1-20210809-pr/

It’s retarded that I have to get these sources for common knowledge for you. It’s akin to
>gravity predicts this
>SOURCE THAT GRAVITY EXISTS???

It reminds me of back in the day when creationists would ask for a source on the most basic accepted science! You’re an embarrassment to the left.

 No.8538

>>8534
I’m a irl girl and I think you nazis should Kill yourselves NOW

 No.8539

>you come under the belief that predatory multinational CEO's are a much more efficient force for change in the world, as well as, as a group, generally far more progressive than the governments which 'rule over them'

lol they're the ones that tell the governments what to do though.

But seriously if you feel like this then just focus on living a good life if you can.

 No.8540

>>8539
Yeah but Here’s some Facts

1. The development of material conditions is heading towards dissolution of the global order in favour of a post-civ pluralism
2. Many will die in the process
3. The state apparatus is incapable of dealing with this problem

I think on the other hand, the philosopher-queen-ceo will save us …. I have faith in the cross-pollinated network spiritual multi cardinal syncardial philosopher-ceo alliance I believe in hot girl summer… I’m just a silly little fragment of the leviathan… I have an anti-matter collider cannon pointed at u, it accelerates positrons straight at ur HEART. We are gonna produce so much raw energy, so much Desire, thats what life is all about. We have to save the flowers. Save the bees Nature is so good. Summer is so good. Life is so g ood!!!

 No.8541

>>8535
I read enough of Desert. No wonder the utopian anarchist lunatic who wrote this published it anonymously. None of the sources cited are primary sources. None of the sources provide academic quantitative evidence. The sources are all secondary sources that derrive their claims from outdated primary sources. The claims made are thusly riddled with errors and oversimplifications.

The entire text is just the shit scrawled writings of a madman on an asylum wall. The revolution that that the utopian lunatic describes is some explicitly anarchist revolution that will never happen. It's literally just some anarchist coming to terms with reality.

Did you even read this shit?

<Unfortunately, in most places, rebel movements are more likely to be statist than anarchist. This is partly thanks to the large number of established authoritarian political gangs compared to libertarian ones, but also because in extreme situations people turn to extremist solutions. In some places this might be self-organisation, decentralisation and mutual aid, but in many there will be no social solution possible, just the false promises of despots and prophets. That’s not to say we couldn’t compete with them by spreading rival millennial hopes of a new dawn, but if we are honest with ourselves, having thrown aside religion, it would be a travesty of our ethics to pick it up again in the cause of gang recruitment and the joy of trouble.

 No.8542

>>8540
Well this is a bunch of psychobabble but I'm glad it gets you horny anyways. But seriously if you end up fighting for the corporats rather than the people when shit goes down I will end you.

 No.8543

>>8541
>None of the sources cited are primary sources that provide academic quantitative evidence, they’re all secondary sources

Can’t argue with some1 this stupid actually genuinely

 No.8544

>>8542
I’m fighting for everyone for real <3

 No.8545

>>8543
What I said was valid.

 No.8546

>>8545
Aaand your response to all these primary sources? >>8537 since you are arbitrarily rejecting secondary sources ? Even tho for the record the secondary sources cited in Desert are by the authors who did the original primary work IN climate science………. And even though there actually is primary data there but maybe if you haven’t noticed that’s not the point of the text, since it assumes a basic understanding of the science…?

 No.8547

>>8544
Hey now, no empathy in this thread! Loving other people isn't allowed! Mutual aid will not help the revolution! Only the logical application of the throws of history in which social groups vie for power to the material conditions in a pure logos is allowed in this thread.

 No.8548

>>8547
I’m a silly love/acc Maxxie -> infinity.I live/acc, laugh/acc, love/acc. We don’T do dick measuring contests. We do heart measuring contests. If u lose the game, you get absorbed into another person. A total seduction -> bio-mimicry

 No.8549

>>8548
>If u lose the game
fuck, bros… I lost the game.

 No.8550

>>8546
Only one of those is a primary source. The other two are secondary.

I never denied climate change. I am only criticizing Desert, which you referred me to.

Obviously Desert is not an academic or scientific text. It doesn't presuppose scientific knowledge. This was written for anarchists. It's just the shit scrawled writings of a madman on an asylum wall.

 No.8551

>>8550
The first is a nasa article with no links to the primary source that provides the quantitative data.

The second is.

The third is a secondary source

Pull your head out of your ass

 No.8552

>>8550
>>8551
you’ve convinced me that talking to you about anything pertaining to reality is not worth my time. Well done

 No.8553

>>8552
Yeah this whole thread is based on nothing but an idea in your head. Same to you

 No.8554

>>8553
One thing u must know about me is I am creative and my brain is a magical place. I am the one who spawns ideas. You are the one who follows.

 No.8555

>>8552
now you know how everyone else feels when seeing ur threads

 No.8556

>>8554
ur rehashing class collaborationism but with an eco spin, wowowwwwowoow

 No.8557

>>8554
The first source is a summary with no links to primary sources

The third source is a press release

This is not creativity. This is lunacy. You are an ancap

<might such a person start to critically support a kind of formalist corporate anarchy, under which the state's power is dissolved (or at least, the power of monopoly issuance is shifted into the hands of these billionaires) in order to concentrate real power in the hands of more effective and competent figures? obviously not whilst eschewing other forms of anti-hierarchical action and radical anti-civ/anti-capitalist/radfem/eco-extremist/whatever-you-like dissent. many have expressed the desire to take drastic action towards saving the world– if these people were in charge of lawmaking, not only would they be able to expedite the process of lawmaking, but have much more expertise in governance. do we really have the time as a species to spend on bourgeois democracy right now– OR on the vapid activism and slow-moving cold war of intra-imperialist conflicts?

 No.8558

File: 1686615339071.gif (1.85 MB, 498x277, 1673618599463.gif)

I honestly feel like leftists who insist on avoiding to admit that there's nothing we can do to stop climate change exist in their own kind of denialism. We're not all gonna die like OP=fag is insinuating but life is going to change on a whole another scale compared to i.e. the pandemic.

 No.8559

>>8422
wage labour is slavery, lib

 No.8560

>>8442
>all the evidence suggests they wont
What other country does this?

 No.8561

>>8558
yeah basically. i see guys in the /ukraine/ thread act like climate change isn't a problem at all and that the global south can just wage unlimited genocide on the global north to bring about communism with no consequences at all on a shared planet.

 No.8562

>>8560
Does what

 No.8563

>>8422
Someone pls post the Frederick Douglas quote on wage slavery

 No.8564

>>8376
This thought experiment is based on a fundamentally backwards idea, that the predatory multinational CEOs are ruled over by the governments of the world, rather than being the powers behind the thrones and the primary drivers of climate change.
>you come under the belief that predatory multinational CEO's are a much more efficient force for change in the world, as well as, as a group, generally far more progressive than the governments which 'rule over them
This is an utterly erroneous belief. The billionaires of this world are a very specific group of self-selected hungry sociopaths, whose sole motivation is to grow their wealth until the day they die. Men born into overwhelming privilege, who then took that inherited power and wealth and used it to step on everyone in their way until they became one of the richest men in the history of humanity. They buy legislators like they're government bonds and warp policy around themselves like a black hole drawing all towards its gravitational center, and they have led us to the precipice of global collapse, knowing full well that they will shuffle off the mortal coil before it all falls apart.
>might such a person start to critically support a kind of formalist corporate anarchy, under which the state's power is dissolved (or at least, the power of monopoly issuance is shifted into the hands of these billionaires) in order to concentrate real power in the hands of more effective and competent figures?
Capitalism IS statism, there is no such thing as corporate anarchy. All this would really result in is oil barons buying hordes of mercenaries to replace the police force they previously had to protect themselves from disgruntled workers.

Yes, we are inching towards the apocalypse year after year. Yes, bourgeoise democracy is incapable of preventing it. No, this is not a bug, but a feature, and it's a feature that the parasitic bourgeoisie has no intention of sacrificing in the name of future generations - you will not find willing recipients for your corporate anarchy among corporations. The bourgeoisie WILL leech every drop of life on this planet for just one more yacht if they can get away with it, and whether or not they can is going to depend on how organized the working class is by the time we're teetering on the edge of oblivion. Such is the nature of collapse and rebellion.
>>8377
Fascism IS the corporate capitalists, and I refuse to believe you actually don't understand this.

 No.8565

>>8561
truly dumb post made by a western neet leftist. maybe the global south, 80% of the global population, should hold off on revolution because western climate warriors are worried about climate change. get your priorities right.

 No.8566

>>8565
Climate change will make zones around the equator uninhabitable for humans so the third world has the most to loose from it, but they should actually prioritize revolution so the north and China can't use them for imperialist extraction anymore, this way they could develop healthy economies while the global economy would slow down and stop emitting so much carbon dioxide.

 No.8567

>>8566
>they should actually prioritize revolution so the north and China can't use them for imperialist extraction anymore
safer just to join BRICS and participate in a managed dedollarization and dewesternization of the global economy. less chance of coup.

 No.8568

File: 1686675388809.png (52.52 KB, 385x375, 34622 - SoyBooru.png)

>largest economy in the world is directed by a communist party
>the american empire is undergoing a slow collapse
>the third world is becoming more and more independent
<AIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE WE NEED A HISTORICALLY PROGRESSIVE CORPORATE DICTATORSHIP OF CAPITAL TOTAL HUMAN DEATH I WANT LE CYBERPUNK NEON LIGHTS!!!!
jannies pick up the fucking coal. this is just a run off the mill rightoid thread

 No.8569

>>8567
lol no BRICS is not even an organization, it's a meeting of wannabe capitalist superpowers that are each out for themselves but have the common goal of contesting American hegemony, it's not something you "join". The only country that is extremely threatened by global warming in this group and that would eventually take drastic actions against it is India btw and they are in bed with the west.

 No.8570

>>8568
None of those things are positive in themselves. Stop clinging to false hope that history will just sort itself out.

 No.8571

>>8570
it obviously won't. thoughever better political conditions are coming and we can use those to our advantage as leftists. even climate change can be an opportunity comrade

 No.8572

>>8501
Let me be clear of your term.
>The conclusion of the slave-master dialect;
>aka the system will grant consiousness to the workers because capitalism design of inifinte growth on a finite planet with people, and designed to have infinite competition despite clearly studied wealth competition occuring, both of which leads to the system undergoing to more and more frequent crisis, leading to the system to make the workers bail it out (aka a wealth transference), while also deepening its level of exploitation, will in a result lead to the workers realizing that the system can't work and they must choose being murdered by the system, or change society and possible be murdered earlier;
>the analysis based on a scientific (testable) approach, based on the physical world (materialism), and categorizing the analysis based off the thinking of processes (dialects);
>the analysis comonly misinturpreted as a science like how math is a science.

Your counter, (correct me if I'm wrong), is:
>the universal application of the master-slave dialectic to everything as if it’s some law of history
<even though it was never used as some law but rather a framework in analyzing the world
and
>or that it has to always occur in its entirety and can never be interrupted
alternatively
>Resistance to the growing consiousness can't occur, or the world can't be destroyed before
<even though the interruptions, which are in wanting to reverse the stage of capitalism to a more competitive moment of its existence, even if successful, will just lead the system to develop and go back to a stage in which massive crisis will occur again
<and the attack against workers developing class consiousness won't work since with the further deepening of crisis and exploitation, the worker will know that the one progressive system has now over stayed its welcome.
<Then the world going into extinction, something that can't be done since those who want to continue capitalism the most, the bougeosis, the same class that has nothing to escape the planet, want the world to continue so they can keep said ownership.

I don't understand your point, or your aggression.
There can't be an infinte capitalism; fascism is nothing but a temporary solution for the bougeosis; global warming, a non-human ending issues, that absolutely should be fought against and if possible ended before its massive destuction occurs; and the owning class can't escape to another planet and continue capitalism there.

It's like taking the doomer thinking of the frog in the pot experiment to its extreme – an experiment that was made with a frog without a brain, and when retested found that the (full brain) frog always jumped out when the water was too hot.
Processes change and go into different stages; the workers will crack – just as a road will crack and break after years of trucks driving over it despite suface analysis giving you the idea that they will last forever.

>>8521
Other than the gaia argument, why?
I don't know much about the book, I genuinely don't know.

>>8522
>>8531
Let me be clear: I'm only a computer scientist (software engineer to be more specific).
But this analysis of the world seems to be still debated about, as seen here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_philosophy#Range_of_views

Unless there is a strong reasoning behind this theory being correct – something I can't say on either, nor know if there is one – then I don't agree with the argument that: a communist revolution occuring because of developed class consiousness, will not actually happen.

Nor do I see handwaving and cherrypicking with these responses:
>>8543
>>8546
>>8552
>>8554

Last one though can easily be someone using their flag.
Maybe if you're going to debate people in the thread you use that tag+name trick,
(I don't remember what it's called, or how to do it).

 No.8573

>>8376
>suppose that you're a believer that all the current forms of 'activist' leftism are failing and we are running out of time, and you come under the belief that predatory multinational CEO's are a much more efficient force for change in the world, as well as, as a group, generally far more progressive than the governments which 'rule over them'. suppose that you believe the world is already moving towards a state of increasingly centralised and interconnected capitalism. suppose that you are desperate for a solution to the climate crisis, and believe that we instantly require drastic action before global society itself collapses (and perhaps it will anyway, and simply we can only reduce the damage as much as possible). might such a person start to critically support a kind of formalist corporate anarchy, under which the state's power is dissolved (or at least, the power of monopoly issuance is shifted into the hands of these billionaires) in order to concentrate real power in the hands of more effective and competent figures?
I'm a lifelong liberal in my 30s and you pretty much summed up my philosophy, minus dissolving state power. I still find states important. They're just often very inefficient and ineffective. (I don't necessarily even advocate for small government. I just acknowledge the difficulties and weaknesses when it comes to getting things done.)

>obviously not whilst eschewing other forms of anti-hierarchical action and radical anti-civ/anti-capitalist/radfem/eco-extremist/whatever-you-like dissent.

So dissent for dissent's sake? Why all this obsession on being "a rebel"? It almost seems like it's just aesthetic for you. Not to be uncharitable but one can easily read this as wanting to be radical simply because it's cooler than being one of those normie NPC sheeplols.

And you just admitted the value in some level of hierarchy! The issue with hierarchy is when it actually imposes restrictions on your rights or tries to push you to act or be a certain way. Especially in your daily life. (So, I'm definitely not a conservative or traditionalist.) When it comes to who makes decisions and who doesn't, a mix of hierarchy and decentralization/democracy generally works best. This is why the concept of corporations structured in a hierarchical top-down manner will always persist. And in any organization without a formal, de jure hierarchy, a de facto one will almost always form. Valve's famous flat hierarchy just leads to a different sort of nebulous shadow hierarchy: https://archive.is/BrIP1

In any hypothetical communistic and/or anarchistic society, you will almost certainly see similar dynamics play out. If there's no de jure structure, things will eventually converge on a de facto one, which may be a lot less accountable and a lot more harmful than if you just had the de jure one.

Also, what you describe reminds me a little of Silicon Valley rhetoric. Or Thielism/Yarvinism without so much of the anti-democracy/monarchy stuff.

 No.8574

>>8570
>None of those things are positive in themselves. Stop clinging to false hope that history will just sort itself out.
It's all teams and factions. America/first world bad, communists/China good. (As an illuminated centerist I'd say obviously all four are bad.)

 No.8575

>>8573
>So dissent for dissent's sake? Why all this obsession on being "a rebel"? It almost seems like it's just aesthetic for you. Not to be uncharitable but one can easily read this as wanting to be radical simply because it's cooler than being one of those normie NPC sheeplols.

I think hierarchy is bad. I don't really care about being 'different' or whatever you're implying. I dislike how hierarchy makes society ugly.

>And you just admitted the value in some level of hierarchy!


In order to avoid a worse hierarchy

>The issue with hierarchy is when it actually imposes restrictions on your rights or tries to push you to act or be a certain way.


That is the essence of hierarchy

>In any hypothetical communistic and/or anarchistic society, you will almost certainly see similar dynamics play out. If there's no de jure structure, things will eventually converge on a de facto one, which may be a lot less accountable and a lot more harmful than if you just had the de jure one.


I don't necessarily disagree but I also think this analysis is shallow.

>Also, what you describe reminds me a little of Silicon Valley rhetoric. Or Thielism/Yarvinism without so much of the anti-democracy/monarchy stuff.


Yeah I recently was reading Moldbug.


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