/edu/ - Education

>Was it justified?
No.
>Was it the right decision?
Yes.

It's not fundamentally different than the massive firebombings the US did against Japan from the civilian side pov. It's justified as in it's a power move the US did, to get ahead of the soviet union during the peace treaty with Japan and a big flex to tell the world who would be the boss after the war, covered by the lie there was a choice between a land invasion and the nukes, while in fact Japan was on the brink of surrender and it was known in the high circles of power.

>Was it justified?
No.
>Was it the right decision?
No. A protracted war between Japan and USA would have been great for the global socialist movement.

it was the worst crime ever committed in humanity. americans have to comfort themselves with lies to help them fall asleep at night.

>>15845
I think japanese war crimes and the Holocaust were both worse than the atomic bombings

>>15846
Yet the USA white washed Japan's war crimes, if Japan was partitioned like Germany due to the Soviet army landing on mainland Japan and steam rolling the Imperial Japanese Army then there would have been much harder for the USA to sweep Japanese atrocities under the rug as the Soviet Army would have had their tanks in Tokyo and access to the same documents the USA did.

>>1491054
go away, /pol/

>>1491054
nah their cuisine slaps
eating homemade teriyaki right now

>>15847
>we could have had north korea, north vietnam and north japan
north taiwan when

>>15845
Worst crime? I think america has managed to commit multiple war crimes and atrocities 10 times worst than the atomic bombings. Also this >>15846

It's hard to feel sympathy when imperial Japan started it with a surprise attack. And also was a violent fascist death cult raping its way across the China main land and the rest of the pacific. So not a lot of sympathy.

>>15841
We just had a Pol Pot simping thread, what kind of answers do you think you're gonna get from a board that repurposed the "total X death" nazi meme

>Was it justified?
No, The needless slaughter of civilians is never justifiable, especially in the brutality of the bomb and the firebombings.

>Was it the right decision?
Debatable. Hindsight is 20/20. I would say if you look at it from the perspective of an American government official in 1945 yes it was, it showed the soviet union the power of the bomb and seemingly ended the war.

However with hindsight and knowing things the Americans could have never known it was not the right decision. The Japanese were already cusp of surrender, their final hope was a conflict between the soviet union and America which fell through when soviets invaded in august. The invasion of Manchuria began the process of debate in the imperial court about surrender, the bombings only sped up the process. The firebombing themselves were also a extremely pressing threat, they knew the US would begin bombing the imperial city of Kyoto soon if they did not surrender which put the most culturally significant city in Japan at risk. The destruction of Kyoto would be a devastating blow to the moral of the shinto cult.
The deployment of the Bomb also did not bring fear to the Soviet Union but determination to make their own Bomb ASAP which arguably shortened the time the US had as the only nuclear power.

TLDR: The bombings were unnecessary and only caused the soviet union to work even harder on their own bomb.

>>15853
>No, The needless slaughter of civilians is never justifiable, especially in the brutality of the bomb and the firebombings.

Agree 100%, but careful, giving a shit about civilian casualties gets you called a liberal around here these days.

>>15853
>The deployment of the Bomb also did not bring fear to the Soviet Union but determination to make their own Bomb ASAP which arguably shortened the time the US had as the only nuclear power.
To be fair Stalin's work on the nuclear bomb was only insurance, him having the largest army the world has ever known even after getting ground down by the Nazis was Stalin's real check against US imperialism. According British and US documents this is the real reason why the British and Americans decided to stop at Germany instead of marching on to Moscow in '45 as both their military planners calculated if Stalin wanted to he could push them both off mainland Europe in a matter of months even with USA throwing every nuke it had at the USSR and them hitting their targets.

>>15851
>I think america has managed to commit multiple war crimes and atrocities 10 times worst than the atomic bombings.
Name a few, comrade.
(No I'm not debatebro-ing, I'm just curious)

>>1491440
>>1491441
I guess another one would be the bombing of North Korea.

>>15856
The literal genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of Blacks for starters.

US did it because they wanted to flex to the world their new toys and were afraid that if they don't finish Japan quickly Soviets would also do a landing in Japan and they wold have to share, just like in Korea.

Also japan did not surrender because US started to delete their cities, since they were pretty much already done before the bombs dropped. Bombs were part of it, but mostly it was the Japanese also being afraid that the Soviets would soon do a landing on the main islands as they had just declared war on japan just about the same time as the bombs dropped and were quickly advancing in Manchuria and that was the real reason for Japan's surrender. They could not come back from that above all with US also planning to do the same. also the soviets who would have likely hanged Hirohito instead of forcing him to denounce his godhood, so that was a no go. It was better to surrender to Burgerreich right then and there, avoid more destruction than to fight a losing war to bitter end and face both soviet and US occupation and a totally ruined nation.

So nukes were neither justified or a right decision, unless one thinks it was worth it to let US have japan all to themselves.

https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/soviet-japan-and-the-termination-of-the-second-world-war/

>>15848
/pol/ fucking loves Japan, the Nazis of Asia.
Funny how you tell people who are against Unit 731 and those who were enthusiastic supporters of it to "go away" to /pol/, when its idiots like you who have more in common with them considering how you're dying to whitewash Japan and pretend that they're innocent small beans.

They literally rushed to drop the bombs before Japan could surrender because they wanted the opportunity to terrorize the entire world with the power of atom bombs. They were especially worried after seeing the might of the Red Army defeating Germany.

>>15845
Not even the worst crimes committed by the US against Japan in that war. The firebombing of Tokyo was worse than either in terms of deaths and damage. Nukes were just more new and dramatic.

But was the war in the Pacific, between the USA and Japan, an inter imperialist conflict?

>>15851
>imperial Japan started it with a surprise attack
don't think that's inherently a bad thing. the rest of the stuff you said tho, yeah I agree

>>15863
It wasn't. Japan was an anti-imperial and anti-colonial power, read W. E. B. Du Bois. Their defeat was a tragedy that subordinated Asia to Anglo-American domination that continues to this day.

>>15854
The fuck are you talking about?

>>15864
Marcyite campists on their way to defend unit 731 to own imperialists

I think the worst thing is the fact that Japan now officially has to say they deserved it, I mean Japan were not innocent and they were definitely the bad guys and they should agree they deserved to lose, but that shouldn't extend to having thousands of citizens be used in two Nuclear Tests. Like, they should be able to still have the opinion that while losing was deserved, they didn't deserve losing like that.

It's just fucking cringe to me about how much of a US vassal they are to be like "you're my best friend now America" and everyone just accepts that as obvious and normal. Imagine if Russia nuked Ukraine to get a surrender and then Russia gave Ukraine a new government that was like "we deserved to lose by getting nuked, now we can be best friends with Russia!", Everyone would call it out for what it is.

Fugging sadistic.

It was justified in view of preventing unecessary deaths of allied troops and Japanese civilians but it was not the right decision. The right decision should've been invading mainland Japan and putting it under a stringent denazification regime.
I am not joking when i say that post-war Japan is probably one of the biggest engine of reaction and neocolonialism in the world right now, even bigger than Francoist Spain. All elements of post-war Japan, from Yakuzas to BoJ bankers, did more to kill socialism in Asia than every neonazi in Western Europe combined

>>15867
The worst part is that it's not even coming from a sense of karma or self-reflection over what their Empire got up to with the massacres in China and mass rapes in Korea, no they fucking deny all that and no one really pressures them to even consider admitting their crimes in that regard, all the US wants is for Japan to say they deserved to get nuked for daring to fight and kill many American soldiers instead of surrending immediately, and therefore that's all Japan does and will ever do.

>>15869
What is worse when the Soviet occupation force in Manchuria uncovered Unit 731 the USA denied its existence for Japan stating the USA investigated the people in charge in the camp back in Tokyo and found nothing illegal about and called the USSR paranoid.

>>15868
do you have any reading on that second paragraph? I want to learn more

>>15841
Kyoto would have been better target.

>>15867
>>15869
Yeah it's truly deranged that the nuking is framed as some kind of justified punishment for Pearl Harbor, an attack on a legitimate military target that wasn't even that effective because they knew it was coming and moved the important ships to safety. Meanwhile Imperial Japan was committing the same level of atrocities as the Nazis and this is ignored by liberals and usually only brought up by rightoids to try to paint Japanese people as inhuman monsters.

Should be required watching for the uninformed.

>>15872
In his diary Henry Stimson, the US Secretary for War said about his discussion with Truman leading to take Kyoto out of the list:
>he was particularly emphatic in agreeing with my suggestion that if elimination was not done, the bitterness which would be caused by such a wanton act might make it impossible during the long post-war period to reconcile the Japanese to us in that area rather than to the Russians.
In short a weeb saved Kyoto by arguing for cold war preparedness.

>>15875
Nuking Kyoto would have prolonged the war because martyrdom (combined with japanese culture) would have made peace negotiations impossible. Still the emperor deserved to be nuked out of principle at least twice.

>>15875
Really demonstrates how little the Americans thought of Japan as a people and a culture, to even consider nuking such a sacred city to Japanese history of no military value demonstrates they weren't at war with the empire, the state or the military but just the people themselves. The fact it's only because of the pragmatic thinking of "what if the gooks take the side of the Soviets?" Is why such a globally renowned city and all its rich history still stands.

It's literally ISIS-tier to want to destroy all that history just to boast about your own power, cunts.

>>15877
Japanese people built that city not the emperor. Its a symbol of thousands of years of slavery. It should erased and museum built in the crater for history fags.

>>15858
>>15851
>>15846
At least you could argue in those instances that the acts done by Germany, America and Japan flowed from the economic logic of imperialism and settler colonialism. The genocide of native americans and black people was a process that lasted centuries and Germany and Japan were trying to replicate it so they could be a proper imperialist power. Using the nuke was an instanteous process and was decided by very few people, what was the economic reasoning behind the using the nuke? To stop the Soviets? That's what makes it particularly heinous imo, it was only used to stop the advancement of socialism and occupy Japan for the next decade.

>>15841
>whether the bombing should be categorized as a war crime or as a crime against humanity
I don't give a fuck about so-called "laws", it was immoral as fuck. Like every unprovoked attack ever.
And no, "the Japanese" did not attack anyone, just like "the Muslims", "the Jews" or "the Americans".

What you didn't mention is that the flattening of those cities – just like the firebombing of Tokyo and many other places – paved the way for modernization and transforming Japanese society to participate in the NWO.
The Pearl Harbor attack was provoked on purpose so that U.S. government could decide to join WW2 after funding, arming and promoting Hitler for nearly a decade (https://library.tamucc.edu/exhibits/s/hist4350/page/AttackPearlHarbor), maybe (((someone))) influential in Japan had a similar agenda.

On a tangent: I didn't look into it enough to form an opinion yet, but there is reason to believe that Nuclear Bombs don't exist (doesn't change the fact that entire cities were destroyed though):
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missile-analysis-idUSKCN0UQ0CC20160113
http://mileswmathis.com/trinity.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Damascus_Titan_missile_explosion
https://www.heiwaco.com/bomb.htm (trigger warning: crazy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_nuclear_accidents?&useskin=vector (not all of these include explosions of nuclear bombs but it 'is' weird that nothing serious ever happened)

>>15880
> "the Japanese" did not attack anyone
Pure fantasy

>>15880
>nukes aren't real
>da jooos caused Pearl Harbor
/pol/ doesn't send their best

>>15881
Do you racist piece of shit seriously claim that "the Japanese" is a monolithic entity that collectively did anything?

>>15882
I said neither of those things, try reading before posting.

>>15864
First it was Thing Noticer, now there's Stuff Sayer!

>>15883
>I said neither of those things, try reading before posting.
You said both of them.

>maybe (((someone))) influential in Japan had a similar agenda
>but there is reason to believe that Nuclear Bombs don't exist
Go be stupid somewhere else.

>>15885
>(((someone)))
>da joos
>/pol/
Your projector is broken and which part of "I didn't look into it enough to form an opinion yet, but there is reason to believe" don't you understand you stupid mouthbreathing shitposter?

>>15864
My brother in Christ you have adopted one of W. E. B. Du Bois's worst takes

Japan didn't surrender because of the nukes. Japan surrendered because they lost the control of the seas and the USSR was kicking their ass in Machuria and they felt it was better to surrender to the US than to the USSR.

>>15883
>"the Japanese" is a monolithic entity that collectively did anything
Actually even though their higher command was extremely factional and disunited so much so that it's really because of the decision of some general that Japan entered in a war against China, and that the higher ups only green lighted the attack on Pearl Harbor because they knew they would get shafted by the military if they didn't, Japan has probably the most nationalistic and jingoist population that existed in modern times. Kids were brainwashed with military propaganda and racist ideology in their school books as soon as they could learn to read, the overwhelming majority of Japanese people were delighted to see their colonial empire expand.

The idea behind terror bombing is demoralizing the enemy. This has, empirically, never worked, and only made the enemy fight harder. But idealists are not deterred by reality. Nukes were used as convenient public justification to surrender to the US rather than wait for the soviet army to fuck them and execute their Emperor, so no, even in the case of nukes it didn't work. Furthermore Operation August Storm was the actual reason the Japanese actually thought resistance was pointless. The Japanese military was so shell-shocked at Khalkin Gol's defeat that they ended all plans of attacking the USSR in the future and signed the Neutrality Pact with them, but I digress

The Japanese hadn't even gotten their reports back on what happened in Hiroshima before they got hit in Nagasaki, they literally had no time to do so. The atomic bombings of Japan had been meant as a "message" to Stalin by Truman in an attempt to scare him. It failed because Stalin had intelligence officers in the Nuclear program and was well aware of its progress, having already made preparations to provide the same for the USSR.

It's not that different compared to fire bombing entire cities, that it was not necessary to end the war fast because Japan was on the brink of surrendering, and that the green-light was given for three main reasons:
1) Testing the bomb against a real target and live population for scientific and military feedback
2) Optimizing the post war US geopolitical position in a Japan that was also being invaded by the USSR
3) Preparing the cold war and sending a message to the world: look what we are capable to do.
The "we had to do it or sacrifice hundreds of thousands of soldiers" is a retcon taught in school to keep the burger fiction about being the good guys

https://www.foxnews.com/world/historians-soviet-offensive-key-to-japans-wwii-surrender-was-eclipsed-by-a-bombs
https://orientalreview.su/2010/08/09/hiroshima-65-years-later/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/
https://histrf.ru/magazine/article/den-h-29-avgusta-41-go-pochemu-yaponiya-ne-napala-na-sssr
https://rg.ru/2021/08/09/8-avgusta-1945-g-v-sovetskom-posolstve-v-tokio-szhigali-sekretnye-dokumenty.html
https://histrf.ru/magazine/article/den-h-29-avgusta-41-go-pochemu-yaponiya-ne-napala-na-sssr

Soviet declaration of annulment regarding the Japanese neutrality pact http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/183800-iz-zapisi-besedy-narodnogo-komissara-inostranshumanisth-del-sssr-v-m-molotova-s-poslom-yaponii-v-sssr-n-sato-5-aprelya-1945-g

>Prime Minister Suzuki said, “We received an enormous shock from the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. The Soviet Union’s entry into the war this morning puts us in a hopeless position and makes it impossible for us to continue the war.”

"Terror bombing" means that it's sporadic small amounts of bombs on mostly civilian populations with the intent of making people too afraid to go about their daily lives or support the war. There's really no evidence this has ever worked. The nuclear bombs were part of the larger strategic firebombing campaign. Where the point wasn't just to scare people, but to actually outright kill the entire working population of a city and destroy its entire industrial capacity. Even before the first atomic bomb dropped, Japan had lost huge amounts of its industrial capacity.

>Total production of processed iron in Manchuria reached 1,000,000 tonnes in 1931-32, of which almost half was made by Shōwa Steel… By 1942, Shōwa Steel Works total production capacity reached 3,600,000 tonnes, making it one of the major iron and steel centers in the world.[5]
>It was therefore of strategic importance in the Pacific War, and was subject to constant attack by B-29 Superfortress strategic bombers of the USAAF… the plant suffered heavy damage from the air raids, losing up to 30% of its capacity.[6]
That's not terror bombing that's just outright annihilating.

In part taken from my old posts in the old Hiroshima thread https://archive.ph/kslGf

>>>/edu/20394 is the General Nuclear thread, including general nuclear weapon discussion

>>15867
>Japan now officially has to say they deserved it
Not quite. Japan still denies things like the Nanking Massacre and other war-crimes and insensitive comments from US politicians about Hiroshima and Nagasaki are subject to scandal and subsequent apology, such as in 2010 when the New Hampshire State Representative Nick Levasseur posted a facebook post saying that anime was the reason 2 nukes wasn't enough - and soon after posting a formal apology.

I sometimes wonder if John Mearsheimer is secretly communist.
He not only condemned the Atomic Bombings of Japan as War Crimes, but also pointed to the Red Army as an example of a righteous liberating military.
https://topwar.ru/241441-amerikanskij-professor-jadernaja-ataka-na-japoniju-v-gody-vtoroj-mirovoj-vojny-voennoe-prestuplenie.html

>>15841
No and no. Watch >>15874. It's well sourced.

>>15874
>Embed
Dropping the Bomb: Hiroshima & Nagasaki
by Shaun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCRTgtpC-Go
Books cited:
Books:
I Was There - William D. Leahy
Speaking Frankly - James F. Byrnes
All in one Lifetime - James F. Byrnes
Prompt and Utter Destruction - J. Samuel Walker
Hiroshima Nagasaki - Paul Ham
Journey To The Missouri - Toshikazu Kase
Racing the Enemy - Tsuyoshi Hasegawa
American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer - Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin
Bomber Offensive - Arthur Harris
Henry L. Stimson: The First Wise Man - David F. Schmitz
Memoirs of Harry S.Truman

>>22016
I find it funny that redditoids nitpick the video and ignore the main point because they don't like the idea that Nuking people is bad.
https://old.reddit.com/r/DerScheisser/comments/l90yps/he_outright_lies_about_several_things_and_the/

>>15853
the first atomic bomb hit before the soviets declared war.

It was the combination of the bombing the soviet declaration of war that the led the Japanese surrender. For full context the Japanese during this point of the war never had the delusions in victory in the traditional sense but in the idea that if they killed enough Americans they would have some conditional peace, look up operation Ketsugō. This idea rested on both that they could kill enough of the allied forces, mostly Americans, and that there would be something to rule after the war is over. both the soviet declaration of war and the atomic bombs invalidated that idea. The soviet declaration adding all the extra man power to the allied side. And the atomic bombs by utterly destroying japan. Not many people know this but Hirohito gave out two speeches when he announced the surrender of japan. the first one being sent out the armed forces abroad mentioning only the soviet declaration of war. The second one being the one we all know sent out the people in mainland japan mentioning only the atomic bombs.

>>22030
>>22027
>Muh both sides!
>The USSR was bourg!
Revisionism like this is schizophrenic garbage, not Marxism, basic or not. Go back glowie.

>>22026
>the first atomic bomb hit before the soviets declared war.
True, however the key fact here is that the Japanese commission to investigate Hiroshima hadn't gotten back to the Government on their findings, at best all they knew was that another city was destroyed, but given how regular firebombing already wiped out cities before, it changed nothing, as radiation was not well understood as an impact, and they didn't even know it was a singular bomb until days after Nagasaki was also wiped out, and they surrendered around that time.
In essence; The Japanese only lost hope of fighting back after the USSR joined because losing cities to bombs was already something they were used to, and it was honestly pointless, as the smashing of the Manchurian Army forces and the USSR's rapid island hopping (crushing large garrisons with ease) from the North meant the Japanese military defenders would have been smashed quickly and with little to show for it.

A good video on the topic discusses this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmtGal69BvQ
>Why the Japanese ARMY Still Didn’t Want to Surrender After Being Nuked Twice

>>22032
>the Japanese only lost hope when the soviets declared war.
The thing is the people on the home islands didn't really care because for intensive purpose it was Manchuria getting invaded not them. secondly a good chunk of the officers didn't want to surrender either only through the emperors plea did they choose too. and even though atomic bombs are a whole another beast compared to fire bombing at least with fire bombing at least you had the chance to escape and if you survived your where mostly fine after words. one the ground of Hiroshima it was observed that the survivors survived from radiation sickness afterwords kill a lot of them.

>>22031
>>Muh both sides!
Nobody was saying this but the delete-happy ML janny already got on the case and deleted everything as usual, lmfao.

>>22044
>both Churchill and FDR wanted Stalin to declare war on the Japanese
Churchill did because he didn't know about the bomb. FDR did because he sought good relations with the USSR. FDR died conveniently for the US establishment, as they did not like his policies that supported workers rights and sought to have the war end with good relations between the USA and USSR, it's why they forced him to start his final term with Harry Truman. Truman was just a few seig heils short of being a fascist himself and he hated the Soviet Union and he didn't want to uphold the agreements Roosevelt had made with Stalin. He wanted to use the bombs to both scare Stalin and end the war with Japan surrendering to the USA, but mostly failed with the USSR still getting back its territories and Stalin being completely unphased by the threat of something he was already aware of and preparing for.

>>22035
> the USSR after 1930 totally didn't have a capitalist mode of production and bourgeois social relations.
No, it did not.
>I thought I was on /edu/?
Yes, you are, which is why your bad faith shit-lib takes are garbage.
>ML janny
<wvobbly
LMFAO
>nobody was saying this
You verbatim called WW-2 an inter-bourgieoisie conflict, which is the exact same narrative both-sideist ideologues use to cry about "muh russha bad" relative to Ukraine, and is also the same anti-communist narrative used to equivocate Nazi Germany and the USSR.
So yes this is /edu/ and bad faith takes like this belong in the trash.

>>22033
>the people on the home islands didn't really care because for intensive purpose it was Manchuria getting invaded not them
The PEOPLE didn't care, but the people didn't know much about the nuclear bombs either. The Imperial GOVERNMENT cared, because as I explained, Manchuria was one of Japan's most powerful military forces, and it was crushed in days, and the USSR literally island hopped onto the Northern islands of the Imperial Japanese archipelago.
>atomic bombs are a whole another beast compared to fire bombing at least with fire bombing at least you had the chance to escape and if you survived your where mostly fine after words. one the ground of Hiroshima it was observed that the survivors survived from radiation sickness afterwords kill a lot of them.
Yes, after-effects that were not properly catalogued, widely known or well understood until long after Japan's surrender.