are there any fringe socialist facts you know Anonymous 23-06-23 10:25:08 No. 18853
For example, did you know that the Gulag myth (the one of forced labor) originated in the 1920s in Finland and Sweden. Soviet lumber industry outperformed the Scandinavians and out-competed it on the European market. They then slandered the Soviet republic.
Anonymous 23-06-23 10:58:23 No. 18858
>>18857 It's not bait, Marx & Engels supported the US invasion of mexico specifically because the american bourgeoisie would be able to better develop the west coast than the mexican bourgeoisie and they would use california as a springboard to spread capital to the pacific thus developing capitalism and hastening worker revolution.
> Or is it perhaps unfortunate that splendid California has been taken away from the lazy Mexicans, who could not do anything with it? That the energetic Yankees by rapid exploitation of the California gold mines will increase the means of circulation, in a few years will concentrate a dense population and extensive trade at the most suitable places on the coast of the Pacific Ocean, create large cities, open up communications by steamship, construct a railway from New York to San Francisco, for the first time really open the Pacific Ocean to civilization, and for the third time in history give the world trade a new direction? The "independence" of a few Spanish Californians and Texans may suffer because of it, in someplaces "justice" and other moral principles may be violated; but what does that matter to such facts of world-historic significance? https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Marx_Articles_from_the_NRZ.pdf In their time they supported anything that developed capitalism to enable a radical working class, it's why they supported things such as polish and irish national liberation as it would allow a bourgeoisie revolution of production to occur and thus allow class conflict to move to a higher stage, that being of worker vs capitalist. A good text on this is 'Marx on the margins' you can get a free pdf of it on libcom. The same line of thinking was used by lenin in regards to colonial nations but this position is nonsensical in the modern day as every single nation on earth has undergone a bourgeois revolution of production and capitalism has been developed in every country, so remember that whenever you see a retarded stalinist or maoist try to replace marxism with just blatant nationalism.
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:06:48 No. 18862
>>18858 >so remember that whenever you see a retarded stalinist or maoist try to replace marxism with just blatant nationalism. oh. i see what's going on. I hope you re-read those letters on Irish and Polish nationalism and see that Marx had a much broader idea of races and nations and that he really didn't believe you could make away with them that easily. Essentially you're declaring that because there exists a
comprador bourgeoisie in a lot of the exploited third world, that there exists a
national bourgeoisie.
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:09:04 No. 18864
>>18863 Is that a joke?
>>18862 A nation being in a sphere of influence doesn't makes their bourgeoisie disappear
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:20:02 No. 18867
>>18866 Apologies for the slow response
I was flabbergasted at your question given you'd already answered it earlier
>Competition is an inextricable part of capitalism, noone can change that and an equal share of capital is impossible, some nations will fail in the market and some will win, the purpose of the communist movement is to overcome this competition. Anonymous 23-06-23 11:25:50 No. 18871
>>18864 >A nation being in a sphere of influence doesn't makes their bourgeoisie disappear There's a qualitative difference between a bourgeoisie set to outright exploit their people so to be seen as the good negro in the eyes of their imperialists; and then there are revolutionaries, like Gadaffi or Sankara which (with all mistakes) showed a different way of development via some sort of state capitalism instead of continuous exploitation. Actually, the USSR was very anti-colonialist in its time, as was the PRC (and is today, as well). The development of the national bourgeoisie will hasten the development of productive forces and turn entire continents into proletarians. The contradictions will intensify. In the final analysis, there can be no withering away of the proletarian state with imperialism still present, and so all up to hitherto existing socialism were simply variants of Lassalle's Prussian socialism and Lenin's post-office socialism. We were wrong, the Lassalle-Bernstein-Kautsky-Bukharinite-Dengist line
was correct. We must accept this as now proven fact if we are Marxists.
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:28:19 No. 18873
>>18870 I'm tired lass or lad and I really should be doing the reading for the friday reading group
>>>/edu/18232 Are you just pretending to be stupid or do I really have to lay it out step by step?
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:32:10 No. 18875
>>18874 Alright, I'll come back to this after I've done the friday reading group work
If I forget hassle me there
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:38:57 No. 18879
>>18872 https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1882/letters/82_02_07.htm >So long as Poland is partitioned and subjugated, therefore, neither a strong socialist party can develop in the country itself, nor can there arise real international intercourse between the proletarian parties in Germany, etc, with other than émigré Poles. Every Polish peasant or worker who wakes up from the general gloom and participates in the common interest, encounters first the fact of national subjugation. This fact is in his way everywhere as the first barrier. To remove it is the basic condition of every healthy and free development. Polish socialists who do not place the liberation of their country at the head of their programme, appear to me as would German socialists who do not demand first and foremost repeal of the socialist law, freedom of the press, association and assembly. In order to be able to fight one needs first a soil to stand on, air, light and space. Otherwise all is idle chatter. And this
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/letters/84_11_18.htm I can't do anything about labor exploitation under Gadaffi. I make no moral claim and neither should you. But you must see that the national-liberal and progressive bourgeoisie is the one which must carry out this liberal revolution. This is a per-requisite for socialism.
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:41:10 No. 18880
>>18875 There is literally no way to get rid of competition in capoital, the very
>>18879 >you must see that the national-liberal and progressive bourgeoisie is the one which must carry out this liberal revolution. This is a per-requisite for socialism. That's literally what i originally said here
>>18858 i also pointed out this has already happened in every nation on earth so these strategies are now redundant
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:44:40 No. 18881
>>18880 >There is literally no way to get rid of competition in capoital That's the point
Anyway join the friday reading group @
>>>/edu/18232 We're reading Engel's
Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State It's a great read
Anonymous 23-06-23 11:45:17 No. 18882
>>18880 > already happened in every nation on earth I'm not content with this. I told you that there is a qualitative difference between a comprador and national bourgeois. One is progressive while the other is not. The majority of the world is only
just now starting actually become a nation-state, due to increased Verkehr inside closed borders and other politicial and economic bodies. The national differences are become obsolete through the increase of Verkehr, the productive forces. Yes yes dengism lole whatever, this is all from the German Ideology before I get accused of dengism.
Anonymous 23-06-23 12:04:05 No. 18886
>>1507473 I fucking hate because you are like an unconscious buffoon, which has set out with a goal in mind and is finding facts to support it. Literally turning Marx on his head.
>>18885 You as well. You just can't decide in advance that there exists a one size fits all form of economic development and that different historical background also gives different ways of doing capitalism. FFS even Marx contended that the state of the peasant and the Russian peasant commune cannot and mustn't be compared to the west European peasant (which was an ally of the bourgeoisie). The Russian peasant was qualitatively different from the European peasant.
(I'm referring to his letter to Vera Zasulich)
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/zasulich/draft-1.htm And so today. The capitalism of the Euro-Atlantic and the capitalism of the People's Republic are different, as are all emerging economic capitalistic conglomerations in Africa, Asia, South America. These are the facts. You cannot and should never decide on an outlook in advance. That's idealism.
Anonymous 23-06-23 12:11:00 No. 18888
>>18886 Let me maybe be even more explicit. Only with developed nation states, can there be win-win economic development between them
as nations . Simplifying movement between countries, connecting via infrastructure and joint efforts show that the
Other is not the other, but your fellow man in the struggle to build a better world. You must see how this is different from finance capitalism.
Anonymous 23-06-23 12:12:57 No. 18889
>>18887 my fucking god you cannot reduce everything to economic categories, you're literally treating them as holy cows when the point of marxism is not to do that
read the german ideology.
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