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/edu/ - Education

'The weapon of criticism cannot, of course, replace criticism of the weapon, material force must be overthrown by material force; but theory also becomes a material force as soon as it has gripped the masses.' - Karl Marx
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File: 1608528375091.jpg (101.2 KB, 1200x1114, who shills the USSR.jpg)

 No.4210[View All]

Since /leftypol/ is downright autistic at times I decided to make a Debunk thread where anticommunist arguments are presented with their debunks by users.
52 posts and 22 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.


Took a quick look at it, some of what he said is covered is this article:

I find curious how he decries Marx as being pretty much a tramp, misbehaving child, but at the same time he's an "armchair" communist lol

But i'm intrigued about the whole "capital trap" thing


Are there any debunks of Gareth Jones re:Ukrainian famine? Almost every debunk I’ve read on the topic ignores him, and goes for the easy pickings (Nazis, fraudsters, etc.), despite the fact that he broke the first western articles on the famine.


Gareth's materials aren't directly gone after because they're part of Hearst's shitposting


Vid related got posted by a college professor in 'my' History class. The same teacher stated Marx to be a Utopian Socialist. He also said https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6qF5NU-ehU is the videos that DPRK classrooms show to students.
>they have no tractors
>they have no cars
yeah because no international trade
>they have poor electricity
yeah because they're not very resource rich and generating power takes resources
>they have no plumbing
same as above
>oh wow how weird they have buddhist temples? i thought they were atheist commies
This part is especially gross. They take something that blatantly counters their narrative and then they attribute the cognitive dissonance that provokes as being a product of the country (rather than their narrative about it) being weird and incoherent. They can't tolerate even one thing that's ok or good so they have to portray it as somehow fake and alien so they can use it to build the case that there's something weird about the country.

They try so hard to make it look like its the worst place on earth when its just average countryside, maybe she never stepped outside of London or seen rural America before.


File: 1633102550104.png (110.76 KB, 644x598, chern.png)

>A Soviet newspaper reports: "Last night the Chernobyl Nuclear Power station fulfilled the Five Year Plan of heat energy generation… in 4 microseconds."
This meme doesn't work because the amount of energy output generated from the explosions wouldn't have been enough to power a country for a year, let alone five years. Just as an example, the 2nd explosion was 40GJ (40 billion joules), which is what some single houses use in a month in modern times. Hell, the yearly US energy consumption is 94 EJ (94 quintillion joules).
Yes I know it's 'just a meme'. It's a stupid one IMO and nuclear science gets dunked on too much by morons.




>Eugenics and Social Darwinism
Once you have tool-using animals with a toolset as versatile as humans, natural selection doesn't count for a whole lot. Social Darwinism is a cope for imperialists to pretend that their regressive and stupid world-system is actually progressive and the rule of evolution. The really interesting development is not genetic or hereditary but the development of new machines and methods, and humans always form a symbiotic relationship with their tools, even if they would prefer not to.


I’m gonna debunk this video because there’s so many things wrong with it point by point (greentext is not the video points but TL;DR of the counterpoints.
>1 no governments do not make housing more expensive it’s more often times landlords
Because money, it’s that simple landlords want high housing prices and that means designing low density cities while forcing the government to pay for them all and what ends up happening is property prices skyrocket while demand for housing increases but can’t be built on as landlords lobby and bribe politicians around the world heavily in favour of more suburbia and unsustainable office towers and skyscrapers because it wastes a fuck ton of land and forces out competition, it’s cheaper to build maintain and repair one 30 story by 5 room high rise apartment that could house thousands than build an entire suburban neighborhood
>2 landlords don’t build anything
They buy land, hire a team to design(most of the time they just steal designs off older buildings) something and then get the government to actually develop the land and maintain what’s left, infrastructure isn’t fucking magical it’s literal blocks of concrete slabs stacked on top of each other that have pipes wires and radio waves running through them, that shit costs far more than what most capitalists can reasonably pay for and hence they don’t, that’s why most infrastructure in North America is visibly fucking old and decaying
>there’s a lot less people demanding room in cities than one would think
If you live in a developed country it’s unlikely that demand for cities will be that huge as most of the population would’ve already lived there, also jacked up prices are only ever bought for if wages or opportunities for high pay are available otherwise people naturally respond to said high prices and move the fuck out to small towns where shits cheaper instead of paying dozens of thousands of dollars to live in fucking cages, for developing countries it’s pretty much the same obnoxious shit

The guy who made this is unsurprisingly a libertarian and likely a dude in his early 20s that hasn’t read that well into economics beyond literal beginners textbooks and early gilded age models of meritocracy


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Cryptocurrency has failed, and here's why. Without including bots and illegal transactions, how often do you see it used as actual, you know, currency? Almost never. Meanwhile, every ancap and their racist uncle has poured money into bitcoin because it's "such a good investment" it's just become another way to invest, except it got popular with 15 year olds. However, bitcoin is such an obvious pyramid scheme that one can only hope these people don't pull out until it's too late for them and their precious ancap money.

Due to the wild fluctuations that it undergoes by its nature, it cannot be used to fix prices. As such, the value of commodities in general must be expressed first in terms of fiat currency–actual money–before they can be given a price in cryptocurrency. It thus falls short of the very defining quality of the money commodity. Also, from a practical standpoint, cryptocurrency is perpetually deflationary which makes it more attractive as a speculative asset than as a means of payment. This makes it spectacularly inefficient in macroeconomic terms, since more of it is thus required (due to rampant and unpredictable hoarding) to facilitate all transactions that go on at any given time. Then, of course, you have the massive shortcoming that it is utterly useless as a marker for debt. Not only do fluctuations and deflation make a mockery of the concept of interest, but the very thing that makes it attractive–anonymity–undermines any guarantee of future payment.

A cool piece of software for drawing won't produce cool pictures if it isn't used by anybody or people who are lazy and got no talent. Likewise, no amount of programmer brilliance can make trading software work if everybody is an absolute shithead. Trading is a social phenomenon linked with production, which is also a highly social process despite what the ruling ideology tells you. A lot of what makes society work is patterns of behavior by masses of people that "libertarians" just take for granted or aren't even aware of. The concept of proof of work in Bitcoin should really be called proof of waste, since it serves 0 other purpose besides creating the proof.

There's an alternative called Gridcoin that actually uses the calculations for something else than just doing random shit, but I haven't looked deeper into it. Proof of stake doesn't look that great either, it just rewards the haves and punishes the have-nots. I don't want to have electronic coins for their own sake, I want to obtain products and services. And I want to avoid disagreements and disappointments, and if something like that happens anyway, I want to have some avenue for dealing with scammers. Bitcoin and similar concepts don't really do anything about that. It is foolish to focus so much on technical innovation here, since they can't really solve the basic issue, which is social. Impressive tech with a shit community gets beaten by mediocre tech with a nice community.

Crypto stuff mostly behaves like a speculative investment, economically. It also does function in a limited capacity for exchange of goods and services and contract management. The initial driver of popularity was that it promised to function as a way to bypass wall-street. As a people's finance. But since the distribution of high inequality (1) was reproduced in the cryptosphere, and wallstreet-money could also buy into it, as result it lost steam. Basically there was an expectation that the distributed systems would negate power in of it self, where also the individual economic interaction would be between the individual personal wealth pile and a collective wealth pile of an ethereal commons. Private property was supposed to be replaced with digital property, that belonged to the commons and was controlled by an emergent swarm intelligence. Also too many young adults of middle income families lost money in crypto-currency gambling with all of the different cryptocoins. It was pump and dump mania. However it's not likely going to crash and burn. To an extend it's a subsystem of the capitalist finance and legal system, but only half way. The main problem with co-opting it for labour vouchers and planning (2), is technical, it needs computers to run, and we don't have a secure computer infrastructure, in terms of end-user-devices, even though the crypto networking is decent in terms of security.

(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQrEEdy_uwM&ab_channel=PaulCockshott
(2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI01-5zhwdA&ab_channel=PaulCockshott

>Ecological Impact of NFTs

Among the arguments made for Crypto is ecology, the idea being no physical money = no trees chopped. The problem being that this is incorrect. As the blockchain gets longer, it takes more processing power to produce a Bitcoin. This makes the value of the Bitcoin go up, which creates an incentive for Bitcoin miners thinking they can get the next one, which in turn lengthens the blockchain. As a result of this cycle, you have enormous processing power, which requires real physical electrical production, chasing the blockchain.

Here are posts from Crooked Timber's John Quiggin complaining about the economics of Bitcoin:


can someone go into that Cosmos episode about genetics where is just muh holodomor shit and debunk that ?.


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Can someone debunk this retarded "Muh 1950 soviet police phenotype chart" (pic related). It's a fake but I can't find the ources debunking it and I need some help.


This site claims it is from the State Archive of the Russian Federation: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/sketches-soviet-police-ethnicity/


Except it isn't. It's some post-Soviet shit by some rando, not related to the police at all, I just can't remember the details of it.


Shit, i could've swore i had seen an image debunk of it (on a facebook page or something) being posted on the booru. But i had no luck finding it.

Maybe someone on QTDDTOT has it?


Maybe, I also recall the debunk being posted on the site but that'd been a long time ago.


bro did you even try? I just typed in "debunk" and it was on the third page


By the way the oldest appearance of this image seen by TinEye is from 2008 January: https://oper.ru/gallery/view.php?t=1048751694

The "debunk" might be bullshit too.


Well, i searched for tags such as "debunk" + "tatar" + "jew", so that's why i couldn't find anything.


Browser searches are localized, I did that exact thing and all sort of variants, but that pic you posted (that I had been looking out for) did not pop up. Thanks for finding it.


it's listed under "funny" in Oper.ru, so the implication is it's bullshit (as Goblin served in the Leningrad Militsiya and police before and after 1991)


There are no search bubbles on the booru…


???? who said anything about the booru


>People Don't Read Anymore
<all this time used by other things
Not to mention the impact social media has had in rapidly decreasing attention spans. It's really fucked up, but a prole unable to concentrate or think critically, or educate themselves, is a prole easier to control for porky. Reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron (https://archive.ph/pofEg).


Video by DemocraticSocialist01 (currently renamed DemocraticMarxist01) debunking anti-Che rhetoric.




FUARKK, the doc's gone, does anyone have a local copy?


>bro just access my Google Docs
Uyghur, I don't use this site on places associated with accounts that have my info.>>4467
You forgot to mention.
>wood doors
Not all concentration camps had wooden doors, some just used them as stopgap solutions.
Not every jew was cremated, most were put in mass graves.


the google docs document broke, can any post a functioning one ?


Link, because Embed is unreliable here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw_nY-tMuHE




Found the archives of the docs.



>google doc (/mobilebasic):


>google doc (/edit):


It's odd that the doc is gone, my guess is that the person either delete it, or their account.
Regardless, google plans on deleting accounts that haven't been used in 2 years, (https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1176602395/google-deleting-accounts).

If we're going to educate the masses – not only do we need to be proactive in our understanding of the world, and the information being put forward is as accurate as possible – we need to be uptodate in how the information is spread and how it's saved/archived.


Forgot to include the printed version of the sites.
I thought I printed it before, but whatever.

Anyone has a newer version of the printed webpage, post it.
The archive of the "/edit" version is really hard to print since it gives frequent errors.


Forgot to look into, the author linked a reading list as well in the doc.
I found it, along a list of snapshots, and a snapshot to use:
>Original Link

>List of snapshots


>Best snapshot


>Pdf of doc

<File rel

Every other link (from what I'm skimming) is planly written out in the doc, making it easier to search.
If there's a link, but it's displayed as a sentence, such as the reading list "Socialism in the 21st Century reading list (tons and tons of stuff here too)", just:
>Right click on the link,
>copy and paste it into the url bar
>Search through embedded links with the link, just search for the last occurance of "http"


"""funny""" how the main google docs link and also the links in the google docs is """unavailable"""


OP here (and the google docs link poster) thanks for finding the stuff, I didn't realize the doc was dead.


Is there another link to read this? My browser just keeps resending the captcha. Unless I'm supposed to solve like 4 of them?? Annoying af


It's archive.is going to shit. Try opening it in Tor.


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Stormfags create German warcrime fakes to "debunk them" claiming that these fakes are from Nuremburg. It should be noted that it is likely the same situation as the famous "Stalin and Yezhov by a river" photo edit.


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Requesting feedback on these debonks. It's supposed to be a resource that's easy to link to for generic questions (instead of wasting time with a back and forth) and easy for non-socialists to understand.


(Those links may break when the admins eventually change the subdomain to wellred.miraheze.org but that's probably months away.)


File: 1697074858648.png (1.07 MB, 800x2449, ClipboardImage.png)

Make sure to repost the links when subdomain changes.

For the 100 Million link: It provides some good arguments in terms of debate but the "muh stalin ideology not ML" feels like a cop-out and it lacks concrete examples of such assertions being false outright, rather than just logically inconsistent and irrational. Frankly speaking pic rel does a better debunk of the 100 million nonsense regarding Stalin and I think

Did the argument a bit better in places. I'd edit the page using these 2 resources and other stuff such as >>20058 >>18236
To create a more solid basis of argumentation.

As a side note, the presentation of the thesis is too straightforward in the sense that its essentially screaming "NO, WRONG!" which will turn away a person on the fence about the truth. While it is irrational, human psychology can and will reject facts if presented to them in what they perceive to be an antagonistic or condescending manner. It's why debates must use persuasion using logos, ethos and pathos to convince a person that these facts are in fact true (because the average layman is not going to bother following up on sources, especially ones that are lengthy essays or articles in and of themselves unless they're already invested in the subject.


Thanks for the feedback comrade.
The presentation is quite blunt and straightforward, a factor of that was wanting to be short, succinct and easy to read, yet covering as many arguments as possible. Another part of the delivery was trying to be factual and formal, like a wiki, which may have gone too far into making it sterile and too assertive for a political topic like this.
Giving it a re-read now (a lot of this was written a while ago), yeah, it's far too blunt, condescending and even a bit arrogant in parts, so I should definitely give it a re-write to soften the edges.
>the "muh stalin ideology not ML" feels like a cop-out
Yeah, it is. I was aiming to quickly counter the mainstream perception that communism is when you are le ebil dictators, by showing that there are other communist ideologies and methods, before claiming Stalin and Mao didn't actually eat all those babies.
I think that a large amount of the target audience would consider an immediate blunt contradiction of their worldview, 'Stalin didn't kill 20 million', the same way they would treat a Holocaust denialist.

Thanks for linking the resources.


You're welcome, and I understand what you mean by people being in denial about the Stalin thing, fair point. That's what I meant by persuasion. When I was in high-school (back before leftypol was a thing) my history teacher started a spiel about "le gommies murdering 20-40-60 millioN!" and I challenged her on that, writing a fully sourced essay (that I unfortunately have lost to a crashed hard drive years back) and changed her mind about the entire thing by being as unantagonistic as possible while still sticking to my guns.


The liberal response to the book Late Victorian Holocausts is that the deaths involved are not a damnation of market forces, but rather a "absence of political power" or "adequately broad economic policy" as the New York Times put it. I don't think assaulting that argument per se would be all that productive, and directly citing the insights of Lenin on this topic will be equally unconvincing, so what sources do you all think should be used?


The same criticisms comes to a common liberal conclusion about most colonized people's movements. The Palestinians are conservatives, they just want to go back to before they lost. The Native Americans are conservatives, they just want to go back to a world without modern medicine or white people, The Puerto Ricans are conservatives, they just want to go back to pre-European times.

Either I'm solely surrounded by schizopherenics who call themselves liberals or I might have just found a pattern of cope.


Asking for details on what they mean by that would probably be more effective than sources for that, but what are you looking for? Citations for an argument?



Forgive me, not the NYT but it was hosted on their website and wasn't present while typing the last one, that argument is interesting precisely because of how vague it is. What do the author mean by broad economic policy? A colonial government that "cares?" How would you build that from an actively hostile state that favors the capitalists? Do they mean something liek FEMA or UN Aid?


In the real-world example, it was some self-described 'liberal' that described likened the Palestinian liberation movement to the Native American one(and liberation movements in general), saying that they just "want to go back to a time before white people." On neo-colonialism more generally, "why don't the colonies just build trade allies outside the US if they want to succeed instead of crying to the UN?"


>"why don't the colonies just build trade allies outside the US if they want to succeed instead of crying to the UN?"
Good opening to ask them about the BRI initiative.
The vagueness is the point, I suspect.


Quick update: Miraheze finally had a revolution and has completed the subdomain change request, so the links are now live at https://wellred.miraheze.org
I didn't work on improving articles until that change was made to ensure nothing went wrong, and now I have some time to revise them.


Could we add Roots of Rebellion to the list for being a mainstream source that shows that the political dominance of the Bolsheviks was overall reflective of the Russian proletariat's will rather than due to their "disagreeableness" or totalitarian will?

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