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File: 1608528409650.jpg (3.56 MB, 2056x2736, 099588b567ebc705708b79a12f….jpg)

 No.4661

Let's debunk muh holocaust revishunism with FACTS & LOGIC.

Articles, books, infographs everythings is welcomed.
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 No.4684

File: 1608528411249.jpg (39.57 KB, 426x450, david-cole-stein.jpg)

Does anyone here know this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/user/WeAreTheRPA

His name is David Cole and he is known as "the jewish holocaust revisionist". He was one of the prominent figures in the holocaust revisionism movement in the 90s, Cole collaborated with IHR, David Irving or Ernst Zundel.

In his video he claims that there is a difference between denialism and revisionism. Denialists deny that there were any genocidal policies in Nazi Germany and that the jews were sent to labor in the east whereas revisionist usually lower the number of victims or deny that there were gas chambers in Auschwitz but they don't deny the genocidal policies of nazi germany.
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 No.4685

>>4661
Question: how can the number of victims in Auschwitz change from 4 million to 1.5 million, but the total number of victims remains the same?

The section in OP's pic that addresses this question is remarkably silly. If everyone thought the 4 million number why did it take 40 years to actually change the memorial.
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 No.4686

>>4685
*If everyone thought the 4 million number why not real then why did it take 40 years to actually change the memorial.
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 No.4687

>>4685
*was not
Sorry :(
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 No.4688

>>4685
>Question: how can the number of victims in Auschwitz change from 4 million to 1.5 million, but the total number of victims remains the same?
the OP pic actually answers that tho
it literally says that historians who came with the 6 million figure did not work with the 4 million figure

>If everyone thought the 4 million number was not real then why did it take 40 years to actually change the memorial.

idk, probably the political situation in the former communist block is here at fault.

the pic says that western historians disagreed with the number, but maybe the situation was differnent in Poland, idk. also notice how the original plaque with 4 million number doesn't mention the jews. that was probably because in the historiography they never talked about "holocaust" of the jews but about "the victims of fascism" in general.
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 No.4692

>>4688
>the OP pic actually answers that tho
But the answers it provides are retarded. I am supposed to believe that a memorial was falsely created within months after the liberation, but not revisited thereafter for four decades. That it took two decades for historians to figure out the number was wrong in the first place. That the researchers who updated the number of victims from victims have more credibility than Rudolf Höss. And that the 4 million number was accepted for around 20 years, but no one included it in the number of total deaths. How does that make any sense?
>idk, probably the political situation in the former communist block is here at fault.
That's a non-answer.
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 No.4693

>>4692
>That's a non-answer.
why?
>hurr durr, it took two decades, i can't believe that
that's not an argument. just because you don't believe something, it doesn't mean it didn't happen
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 No.4694

>>4693
>why?
Because it is nothing but your guesswork.
>that's not an argument. just because you don't believe something, it doesn't mean it didn't happen
So that's the only point you're going to reply to? What about the rest?
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 No.4695

>>4694
>Because it is nothing but your guesswork.
yes, it is. because I am not sure why it take them so long to change the plaque. My guess is that it was "politically incorrect" to revise the findings of the soviet commission in that time. So that's why they weren't taking western historians points into account and why they didn't make a new plaque.
what's yours theory? elders of zion were blackmailing the government of poland?

>So that's the only point you're going to reply to? What about the rest?

your whole argument is based on your disbelief that it took historians two decades to revise the number.

the only other "point" you make is this
>the 4 million number was accepted for around 20 years, but no one included it in the number of total deaths. How does that make any sense?

but it was already answered. in the communist countries they never talked about the Holocaust specifically and never used the 6 million number. In their historiography there were just "victims of fascism" in general. they never made the special cathegory for the jews. (that's why they are often accused of holocaust denial by people like Deborah Lipstadt)

And the communist countries were the only place where the 4 million figure mattered. Outside them it didn't.
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 No.4696

>>4695
>So that's why they weren't taking western historians points into account
They did accept the 4 million number within the first few months, but then ignored everything else for 40 years thereafter? Makes sense.
>your whole argument is based on your disbelief that it took historians two decades to revise the number.
That was one of 4 points, retard. It also calls into question the legitimacy of the Nuremberg Trials.
You completely ignore that
&ltI am supposed to believe that a memorial was falsely created within months after the liberation, but not revisited thereafter for four decades.
&ltThat the researchers who updated the number of victims from victims have more credibility than Rudolf Höss.
I take your lack of respond as an admission of defeat.
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 No.4697

>>4695
Also saging in a holocaust because someone argues against the holocaust betrays your confidence.
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 No.4698

>>4696
>They did accept the 4 million number within the first few months, but then ignored everything else for 40 years thereafter? Makes sense.
disbelief isn't an argument, faggot

>It also calls into question the legitimacy of the Nuremberg Trials.

>You completely ignore that
you didn't say anything about Nurnberg trials, retard, in any of your posts

>I am supposed to believe that a memorial was falsely created within months after the liberation, but not revisited thereafter for four decades.

again, disbelief isn't an argument.
Auschwitz museum is in Poland which was under the rule of the communist party. They didn't allow many foreign experts to take part in creating the exhibition. especially the israeli ones. so I don't really see why are you doubting that. What is your theory ? why they didn't change the plaque for 40 years?

>That the researchers who updated the number of victims from victims have more credibility than Rudolf Höss.

what? how is Hoss related to the death toll?

>>4697
>Also saging in a holocaust because someone argues against the holocaust betrays your confidence.

whining is not an argument, fag
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 No.4699

>>4698
>just believe it goy
>in a self-proclaimed debunk thread
weak
>why they didn't change the plaque for 40 years?
I don't care about their intent.
>whining is not an argument, fag
>he said after losing the argument and saging
weak
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 No.4700

>>4699
>no arguments
weak
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 No.4701

>>4700
&ltThey didn't change the memorial for 40 years despite knowing it was false for at least 20
&ltThe Nuremberg trials got the actual number of deaths wrong
&ltRandom "researchers" have more authority than the nazi witnesses during Nuremberg
&ltEveryone knew the 4 million number was wrong, except when they didn't, but that doesn't matter because they never included them to begin with
So far you haven't debunked shit my dude.
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 No.4702

>>4701
&ltThey didn't change the memorial for 40 years despite knowing it was false for at least 20
I said, that the western historians knew the number was false, not the poles learn to read, retard

&ltThe Nuremberg trials got the actual number of deaths wrong
I wasn't talking about Nurnberg at all, but yeah

&ltRandom "researchers" have more authority than the nazi witnesses during Nuremberg
If you knew anything about historiography and how it works, little retard, then you would know that the expertises always matter more then witnesses

&ltEveryone knew the 4 million number was wrong, except when they didn't, but that doesn't matter because they never included them to begin with
that isn't what I said, you dishonest faggot, learn to read, you illiterate cripple

i said that western historian revealed that numbers were false but Poland ignored for political reasons
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 No.4703

>>4702
>I said, that the western historians knew the number was false
Why did Poland adopt the original numbers, but not the updated ones?
>then you would know that the expertises always matter more then witnesses
You can't trump the authority of Hitlers advisors saying 2.5 million Hews were killed at Auschwitz with some random "expertise". Why would they lie?
>that isn't what I said, you dishonest faggot
That's what is being said in OP's pic.
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 No.4704

>>4703
>Why did Poland adopt the original numbers, but not the updated ones?
I've already said it
Poland was under the rule of communist party and in the Warsaw Pact. Maybe it was "politicaly incorrect" to criticize the the soviet commission expertise or maybe their historians didn't even know that numbers were already revised. there was a hard censorship in poland.

>You can't trump the authority of Hitlers advisors saying 2.5 million Hews were killed at Auschwitz with some random "expertise". Why would they lie?


If the Hitlers advisors have no evidence for that then obviously the expertise has more value than their testimonies.

>That's what is being said in OP's pic.

I am not the author of the OP pic.
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 No.4705

>>4704
>Maybe it was "politicaly incorrect" to criticize [the holocaust]
certified bruh moment
>If the Hitlers advisors have no evidence for that then obviously the expertise has more value than their testimonies.
They were practically second in command of nazi-germany. What they say can't be taken seriously, but some random "expert" schmuck can? And also if you point this out you can be put in jail for "denial". Totally legit.
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 No.4706

>>4705
>Maybe it was "politicaly incorrect" to criticize the the soviet commission
&ltMaybe it was "politicaly incorrect" to criticize [the holocaust]
are you retard or illiterate?

>They were practically second in command of nazi-germany.

>What they say can't be taken seriously, but some random "expert" schmuck can?
appeal to authority

if you say something and you don't have evidence for that, then expect not to be taken seriously, lmao.

experts have evidence, nazi bonzes didn't. easy as that.
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 No.4707

>>4706
>appeal to authority
That's just projection. The second in command of nazi germany has objectively more authority on the matters of Germany than a random "expert". What qualifies the "expert" to begin with? Credentials, public opinion, interest groups? Who assures he isn't lying?
>experts have evidence, nazi bonzes didn't. easy as that.
Experts are liars.
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 No.4708

>>4707
&ltWho assures he isn't lying?
>if you say something and you don't have evidence for that, then expect not to be taken seriously, lmao.
>experts have evidence, nazi bonzes didn't. easy as that.

seriously, are you illiterate?
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 No.4709

>>4708
>experts have evidence
It's all a farce. What is "evidence" on one day is "debunked" in the next.
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 No.4710

>>4709
yeah, ok

so what?

proofs by experts are debunked by another experts. that's how science works, lmao.
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 No.4711

>>4710
>the holocaust is sciene
>but if you try to refute is you go to jail
You sound like someone that has never once in his life argued against the status quo.
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 No.4712

>>4711
>the holocaust is science
being dishonest again, retard?
I didn't say anything like that.

>but if you try to refute is you go to jail

i don't support Holocaust denial laws
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 No.4722

I'll never get over the moment someone on USApol pointed out that the reasons Nazis deny the Holocaust so much is because it puts a massive hole in their ideology.

>Oh fuck, we killed almost all the Jews but everything is still going to shit!

>QUICK EXTERMINATE THEM EVEN FASTER

>still loses the war
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 No.4731

File: 1608528414227.pdf (17.19 MB, Sruoga, Balys-Forest of th….pdf)

I believe the entire discourse when it comes to approaching Nazi war crimes needs to steer away from the Holocaust - a relatively medium-sized part of them - as the center of attention and instead look at the German concentration camp system as a whole.
The most bleak, most monstrous institution, was the entire camp system. Only a small part of it operated for the final solution, and in fact was in place for a long time even before the war. Most common people found here? Criminals, from simple thieves to murderers, political dissidents, POV's, random civilians that got unlucky, "sexual deviants", foreign politicians, foreign intellectuals, failed NSDAP members… all were put to the same inhuman place. A massive industry of work camps, worst of which meant certain, torturous death for their inmates. It was a slavery-based industrial complex for all kinds of porky companies (one of the reasons why I believe wiping it all under a singular "final solution" rug by western media was appealing). In fact, I would say that this system of forced, fatal labour was EVEN WORSE than the holocaust. But don't take my words. Take the words of someone who survived it all:

>In the morning after all the columns have left for work, a shoal of specters seeps out from somewhere into the yard. It's all so strange!

>This sea doesn't walk; it slinks. Slowly, very slowly, without a sound, as the shadows of a fleeting cloud.
>Slinking… Once, maybe not even so long ago, these specters were humans. They had a shelter, a home, parents, sisters, brothers, maybe a wife, maybe children. They had a homeland, they had a life - a will, freedom, desires!
>Slinking: clinging one to the other; one holding up another; leaning on each other. No one nags them anymore; no one hits them anymore. Nothing in the world matters anymore.
>Their clogs no longer clump. They no longer have the energy to raise their feet from the ground. They drag their feet along the ground so slowly that even their shuffling is barely heard. Some hang their heads down on their chests, sometime still scanning the ground, sometimes not looking anywhere. Others, with misty sleep-filled eyes, still glance around, but they see nothing, understand nothing, want nothing. Others lean back against their friends, close their eyes as in a casket and barely, barely drag their heavy feet. But the faces, the faces! Each is more horrifying, more anguished than the next.
>It wouldn't cause such agony to look at these faces if the feet didn't move, if they were really corpses!
>What could you possibly expect from a corpse? A corpse certainly doesn't care. But when such a face still goes to work!
>What kind of moral, what land of historical justification could be imagined for those who send others to a concentration camp, without so much as a second thought? None. They might redeem their human wretchedness only if they themselves ended their days in the hell on earth to which they sent others, oppressed by the same lunatic ideological fictions they imposed on their victims. Otherwise they will be eternally damned in memory, even by the children of their children.
>Slinking, slinking… humans of al nations, of all professions. A month ago, or two or three, they had arrived in camp sound, whole.
>A newcomer can't even force himself to get near the specters - the stench of rotting corpses drives him away. Their hands are crusted with sores; their feet are covered with sores. Under the sores mill various parasites ignored completely by these former members of the human race.
>Slinking, slinking… So slowly!
>Occasionally one, occasionally another wanders off from the tribe. He totters around as if unable to decide what he should do now. He takes one step to the side. Another step. Keels over onto his knees. Drops his hands to the ground. Crawls a few paces. Loos around with the eyes of a mad man. Lowers his chest, then his face to the earth. Becomes rigid in an instant. A shudder jolts him. He raises his head. His eyes show a terrible longing, terrible yearning. He utters not a word. Not a moan. Lips won't even move. Silently he crawls towards a secluded spot. To the fence, to the barrack wall he crawls. He lies down. Closes his eyes. Now, nothing matters anymore.
>Another specter doesn't even move away from the flock. He falls to the ground and lies there. His neighbors have no strength. They can't manage to raise him. Those slinking behind trip on him, stumble. Some are still able to lift a foot over him; others can't even do this. They stumble on top.
>Slinking, slinking… What a lot of them! One hundred, another hundred, a third…
>This is the camp's detachment of cripples. It too is a labor detachment! The cripples "go to work" and "work" according to their capabilities.
>It's a very stable detachment: never diminishing, never disappearing.
>So what if most of this detachment's members die off during the day - in the barracks, en route to work and during "working" hours! In the evening the forest labor detachment will return. It will supply cripples for tomorrow, no fewer the number that died during the day. The cripples' detachment will not suffer in regard of size.
The forest detachment receives new members to replace those given to the cripples. In a month or two these initiates will transfer to the cripples in their own turn. And so spins the wheel of life. Every day new people are herded into the camp, but the camp's population increases very gradually.
>People die in the battlefields in horrible agony. But there everyone is equal. There aid is rendered to the wounded. There the injured individual is respected even by the enemy. There you have a weapon; you can defend yourself. Your death and suffering have some kind of meaning: you're fighting for a purpose, for your homeland, for your freedom…
>But here - nothing! No meaning!
>No one will come to your aid. No one will comfort you, console you, offer parting words of love as you approach the mystery of death.
>Isn't it better to be sentenced to death or hung than to die this way, caving in to rotting wounds kept open by terrible hunger?
>In earlier times, in other countries, a final wish was granted to the one about to hang: a last meal, a shot of booze to toss down… But here - a kick in the butt - that's all.
>The other extermination camps, where a prisoner was brought in and immediately killed, were atrocious, too. This same killing took place under the skies of the Forest of the Gods; the only difference was that here a person was tortured to death. His health, his energy were sucked dry, he died by degrees of starvation…
>Which type of camp better compliments the achievements of our century's culture? God knows! After all, it's a matter of individual taste…
>Slinking, the detachment of cripples is slinking, slinking…
>For every convict, this is the convincing memento mori. Everyone's desire to live is equal. And everyone is equally aware: in one month, or two - you'll most likely end up in the cripples detachment.
>From here comes within the prisoners this bestial instinct to survive: to hang in there at any price. From here comes that hyena like brutality between the prisoner's relations. These things become clear much later on. A newcomer, having barely arrived here from the real world, understands very little.
A newcomer witnessing the detachment of cripples for the first time in his life comes close to losing his mind. It's not death that's horrible - what's horrible is the sight of desecrated man. And not only is man desecrated, even death is desecrated - defiled, befouled, adulterated.
>A newcomer doesn't even notice how he begins to shake all over as his taut, ashen lips murmur:
>"Oh Lord, oh my Lord!"

This comes from the .pdf related. I highly recommend the book, it's probably one of the best I've ever read, and sheds much needed light on the day to day life of the concentration camps.
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 No.4735

>>4684
from Cole's book "Republican Party Animal"

>“Desmond Boles” [Cole's pseudonym] was able to deplete the revisionist side rather quickly. It was an olderdemographic, and, frankly, they were dying off pretty quickly. And a lot of those geezers stillwanted VHS tapes. It was a pain to mass-copy VHS tapes. In fact, I would reuse old tapes I hadaround the house, stuff that I’d recorded in the 1980s and ’90s


>One time, for whatever reason, the copying process failed, and I sent this poor old revisionist guy a video with episodes of The Simpsons on it. Now come on, hate me as much as you want,but you have to admit that’s funny. This guy orders a film that was probably called something like “The True History of Auschwitz,” he puts the tape in, and it’s Homer Simpson. That’s just plain funny.
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 No.4737

File: 1608528414685.jpg (127.41 KB, 500x467, 1514484212616.jpg)

>>4661
Overview of the Holocaust
https://imgur.com/a/725A7

Massacres under the regime
https://imgur.com/a/AubwH

Involvement/Approval of Hitler and other officals
https://imgur.com/a/MbpVq

WW2 images Holocaust Deniers claim are fake but are true
https://imgur.com/a/iNYHW

Red Cross/Numbers explained
https://imgur.com/a/nW70r

Accurare Auschwitz model
https://imgur.com/a/YTjir

photographs of victims
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2009/03/photographic-documentation-of-nazi.html

list of published documents from the nazis about the holocaust
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.ie/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html

Heres Eisenhower, Bradly and Patton inspecting Camp Ohrdruf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR2m5Aa8aCo

Locals brought in to witness what happened at Dachau
https://youtu.be/jF6KW4rS7TM

Bodies of inmates left inside the railroad carts at Dachau
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yQNGX8Ag4M

Liberated inmates from Camp Ebensee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCaYmP8SQn8

Footage from Mauthausen after being liberated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjj3WJFZcY0

Bergen-Belsen after being liberated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KCKagd6Ihk
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 No.4763

whatever you may think about "Holocaust revisionism" and people around it, the "Holocaust denial laws" are absolutely useless and actually help deniers than harm them. thanks to them they can say that they are dangerous dissidents and claim that holocaust is a dogma and not a fact when such laws exist.

Actually, there is nearly nothing to be discussed with the deniers, most of their arguments were already refuted, and they are in stagnation since didn't come up with something new since 90s. But back then their arguments were very shocking and in many cases mainstream historians weren't able to answer them because many of them were relying just on the eyewitness testimonies. one might even say that existance of the denialists/revisionists actually helped holocaust historiography.

I agree with Norman Finkelstein on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8uzLyF1-H4[Embed]
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 No.4764

>>

 No.4766

>>4763
This is ridiculous reasoning. I would imagine that you could write page after page about how the red scare harmed the socialist movement in America, while simultaneously believing that the same treatment applied to fascism somehow makes it stronger. Contrary to popular belief on the internet, fighting your enemies does not, in fact, make them stronger.
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 No.4773

>>4766
>Contrary to popular belief on the internet, fighting your enemies does not, in fact, make them stronger.
that wasn't my point tho. I said that not confrontong their arguments and just declaring them to be bad evil nazis, doesn't help us at all. And especially the "holocaust denial laws" dont help us.
these people should be allowed to publicly say their idiotic opinions because then it will be them who will discredit their ideas. Holocaust denial is a dead thing nowadays.
They haven't came up with new arguments since 90s. All of their shit is debunked. they are harmless
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 No.5358

>>4735
It kind of is funny tbh
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 No.5359

>>4764
dead link
>>

 No.5363


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