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 No.11615[View All]

Noticed a lot people talking about Tolkien’s works and philosophy. So, I created a thread specifically dedicated for that and other things related to it, like the movies and games.
143 posts and 31 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.


Me again. Just watched the third episode and am now blackpilled, this show sucks so much. Who wrote this garbage. Im so drained I can't even be bothered to list all the things im bitching and moaning about. They blew their mediocre load in the two episode premiere and it'll just be garbage from now on.


On the bright side, they said that Amazon streaming was betting it all on this show, so if it's so bad it might end that little venture.


>Who wrote this garbage
I always find it impressive how these shows (and movies) can dump 500+ million in it but are never capable of buying good writing. I find it hard to believe that the writers are just all hacks and amateurs, so it must be the financial demands that come with so much money flowing through these projects that restrict creativity or personal engagement, or spirit, or anything human from anything. Written by AI.


I mean many of the older writers left the industry due to the writers strike and the culture industry saps any creativity from people to make everything based on a formula that sells. Not to mention these new writers are notoriously lazy and don't bother doing any reasearch on the setting of established fiction.


The same way you can write and publish all the Wizard of Oz stuff you want but MGM can't do shit about it as long as you don't base it off their movie.

That's the power of being in the public domain. The public is considered the communal owner of it, and can do whatever they want with it. It's why Disney fights for indefinite copyright extensions so hard. Once the copyright runs out and their ancient properties start entering the public domain, they can no longer maintain artificial scarcity and profit off of them.

>I bet Disney can use legally ambiguous threats of legal action to stifle any attempts at using any source material Disney has already used.

I guess we'll find out. https://www.ksat.com/entertainment/2022/01/06/disney-likely-seeing-copyrights-to-winnie-the-pooh-expire/


If Marvel is anything to go by, the writing process is severely fucked by the CGI process. The impression that I get is that in older productions, a lot of the writing is adjusted on the fly for various reasons. Maybe they realize that something is stupid or doesn't work so they just axe it. Maybe the actors have some character input that changes how a story goes. In the original LOTR trilogy you had people reading through the books and making adjustments to the script all the way up through filming, and you had actors like Christopher Lee, who was an expert on the subject matter of both LOTR and stabbing people, and that affected the production. So with a much more versatile production process, bumps and wrinkles can be smoothed out on the fly, but with productions like Marvel movies, which I think this, what, half a billion? billion dollar? Amazon series basically qualifies as, with so much money invested in it and its digital effects, there are now these bottle necks that just lock the production into being a certain way. There's a scene in the script set in Caras Galadhon or whatever and that scene cost 30 million dollars, and the digital effects slaves have been working on it for 6 months, so you can't just toss it out…

I guess really we're living in the fallout of George Lucas's prequel trilogy, where the digital effects completely run the show, and they're so expensive and integral to the show that they can't be worked around. Compare it to something like SW OT, which was dogshit when Lucas first cut it together, but his wife was able to rearrange all the parts that worked into one of the most successful movies of all time. I just don't think that's really possible any more with current production methods.


>I guess really we're living in the fallout of George Lucas's prequel trilogy, where the digital effects completely run the show, and they're so expensive and integral to the show that they can't be worked around.
The ironic part of this was that Lucas pioneered a lot of that technology specifically to reduce the costs and complexity of the production pipeline and to be able to make alterations to the film in post-production. There's a featurette from Phantom Menace where you can see Lucas directing an editor to digitally move live action characters around in a scene to change the blocking of the shot, and to splice in different takes from each actor to get the exact performance he wants (which of course ruins the chemistry between them lol). He was chasing bad ideas that were bad for different reasons, but the importance of digital post production has basically hijacked the whole filmmaking process and has become bad for new reasons.


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This is an interesting analysis, but I thik the opposite may in fact be true. Sure these companies have money, but the amount they're willing to spend depends on how much they think the show is likely to earn, amongst other things.

There was a comment in the TV thread (I'd link it if I knew how to link comments from other threads) about how the She-Hulk tv series was filmed. Instead of just getting a muscle mommy to play the hulk and a regular size actress for Jen, they decided to do the hulk stuff with CGI. Now Marvel has plenty of money, so they could do the entire thing in CGI if they wanted to, so you'd think this wouldn't be a problem. Well, as soon as production began the writer started getting asked to reduce the She-Hulk screen time because it was too expensive.

"Can you do this with Just Jen?" or "can you cut this scene entirely?" even though the show was called fucking She-Hulk! The writer said that they think Disney are trying to pump stuff out as cheap and fast as possible, so it could well be that the people responsible for this are doing the same. As common logic dictates, it's possible to make something fast and cheap, but the result probably won't be good. I know that isn't really materialist analysis, just a trueism, but it holds up in this instance, I believe.


I was almost gonna watch the new series. Thank fuck I listened to the struggle session ep. It totally exposed how how the limited rights that amazon could acquire means that the show can only be a bunch of bullshit. Pretty eye opening.


Of course the seafarer who "rescued" Galadriel turns out a king with oh so "noble blood" and ancient lineage who just happens to "dress in commoner's rags". Fucking hell.


its honestly getting better with each ep. the overhead shot of numenor especially made the episode worth watching. the dialogue is getting better in parts too while being a fucking trainwreck in others - slitting the elves throat was so dumb.


>(I'd link it if I knew how to link comments from other threads)
Three meme arrows >>>
The board code /hobby/
And the post number 28221
by their powers combined: >>>/hobby/28221


Thank you most wise anon


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He later changed due to the implications of having an entirely evil race, which Tolkien was very weary of and it conflicting with cosmology of series. He never settled on it before he died. I would suggest and reading the tolkien gateway article about it if Don't want to read HOME.

Side question have any you anons read "The History of Middle Earth" series? its a twelve set the goes in depth of the history of the creation of the silmarillion and lord of the rings all put together by his late son Christopher Tolkien. Some of the changes include the Aragorns original nickname to be Trodder to the Akallabêth to be a time travel story.


Doesn't all the lore exist through the framing device that he found manuscripts and translated them to English from the languages of Middle Earth? Like, The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are canonically written by Bilbo and Frodo (and Sam) respectively. You could just argue that the records are incomplete so there's nothing confirmed and you can have whatever headcanon you want.


Not sure if will indugle this show, it seems a bit removed from Tolkien's prose and just a modern fantasy production, but I rewatched the movies recently and I am more convinced now that they aren't very good. I don't wanna ruin anybody's childhood memory but it's the truth.

It's full of popmpous dialog, it shows you constant slaughtering but there is not a single drop of blood to keep it family friendly, the slow-mos are insufferable as if I am watching a Zack Snyder movie, it's totally overacted and you never feel that the hereos are in danger especially with trying to build in comic relief during the main battles and it shies away from showing Saruman's occupation of the shire which is the bit that shows the cost of war and doesn't just glorify it. The homoerotic tension between Frodo and Sam is dumb, and Sauron looks like Morgoth. The moment they have Aragorn walking into over 50 Uruk-Hai that are man-sized and easily cutting through them in the first movie you know that there aren't any stakes.

It had some nice setpieces, the costumes were alright, and CGI was amazing for its time. But rewatching them now feels like a drag and it especially baffling people praise Peter Jackson, that fat fuck is a b-movie trash horror directer that got catapulted to be the new Francis Ford Copolla because of that LOTR shit.

The way Tolkien writes you have to set up a film adaptation more like a stage play, I don't think it's possible to make a family-friendly blockbuster with it.



>I don't wanna ruin anybody's childhood memory but it's the truth.
lmao as if people don't regularly rewatch these films as adults
>The way Tolkien writes you have to set up a film adaptation more like a stage play
What does this mean exactly?


>lmao as if people don't regularly rewatch these films as adults
For the memberberries? Same reason people rewatch the Star Wars prequels despite the god-awful dialog. Well take it from this adult I decided to rewatch them because I felt like it and it was a slog.
>What does this mean exactly?
Tolkien is clearly influenced by old Anglo-Saxon sagas like Beowulf and similar stuff, and that is how he writes, you can't set up a film adaptation like a Marvel movie but you have to do it like you'd do a Shakespeare. That doesn't mean Tolkien is up there with Shakespeare but it's the kind of vibe you have to go for and not go for Narnia or some shit.


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>you can't set up a film adaptation like a Marvel movie
The LotR films predate the Marvel films lmao.


Marvel has been making movies since 1943 also you didn't respond to anything I said.


this doesn't make sense and I am really angry, also I'm not you samefagging


I am not samefagging.

The first Captain America movie was released 1944.


Galadriel is canonically trans btw



I've read the two book of lost tales and peoples of middle earth, I was really interested in the early draft stuff of what would become silmarillion such as the Noldor being named "Gnomes", the wicked dwarves, and Tevildo the prince of cats being the lieutenant of Morgoth instead of Sauron


That's why The Last Ringbearer is an actual believable theory. There are multiple implications that orcs and Sauron/Morgoth aren't the bad guys. After all those supposed treacheries there were still a lot of people siding with them and called them liberators. They are basically the only ones with technology like medicine.




I agree Numenor looks great, they modelled it in sort of a Byzantium and Phoenizian style if i'm not mistaken. The orcs look ok too. I still do not like the kitsch painting colours though and the writing is still awful (ohhhhhh yay, a white horse!!! t. not a 12 year teenager girl, but 5000 year+ old Noldor female who is banned from Aman due to being involved in a rebellion and massacre). Hope the dude from GoT gets a better plot and decent fight scenes and Elendil's & Isildur's storylines go really close to Tolkien (Jackson adapted the books almost 100%), because i'm really not interested in more of the extremely cheesy fairytale stuff. I'm still watching the show only because i like Tolkien a lot. I've read almost everything he published.


I like where episode 4 went but the main conflict this episode was resolved way too easily without any action by the main characters.



>“Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time… The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialization has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away.”

— Christopher Tolkien, Le Monde


>But Christopher Tolkien’s lament was prophetic. In the same comments from 2012, he added that “it seems that The Hobbit will be the same kind of film.” The scope of these comments was not limited to Jackson’s films, but rather to the broader commercialization of his father’s corpus in his entirety. He saw Jackson’s trilogy and knew what was coming. Endless films in the Tolkien Cinematic Universe, big-budget action videogames, Denny’s menu, Made in China toys; all at the expense of what he loved about his father’s work.

>And he was right. The Hobbit indeed contains elements that do directly contradict the structure of Tolkien’s work, most obviously in the saccharine, cringe-inducing love triangle set up between elves Legolas and Tauriel, and dwarf Kíli. This change undercuts the tremendous focus that Tolkien gave to the symbolic significance of his genealogical structure. It also pierces the veil too deeply and thereby compromises the character of Legolas into a more pathetic cast. And, of course, all omens point to an acceleration of this commercialized disregard for Tolkien’s work in Amazon’s The Rings of Power.

>This process happens to more or less anything wildly successful. Godzilla (1954) is a beautiful and melancholy cinematographic masterpiece. But by the ’70s, Godzilla had become a pastiche of itself, an intentionally cheap and campy product for children. Godzilla’s creator Tomoyuki Tanaka later told People Magazine that turning Godzilla into a loveable hero had been a mistake and caused the decline of the franchise. (And they are still making Halloween movies.) For this reason, I am more cynical than Christopher. I’m amazed when anything big is decent twice. Yet if you rolled the dice 10,000 times you would not get another trilogy like Jackson’s.

>The Lord of the Rings – the book, not the films – is a work of remarkable depth and complexity. Tolkien’s work is one of those rare accomplishments so overshadowed by its own commercial success that academia has not yet fully appreciated its artistic merit. But as much as I hate to admit it, its success is exactly why you should expect to see Middle Earth turned into a wide variety of endless trash. I didn’t understand this ten years ago. But Christopher Tolkien did; he saw the writing on the wall and it broke his heart.


his son was such a faggot, just give up the rights, I rather see a multi part silmarillion than the next fucking batch of marvel movies. Tolkien is no more sacred than Shakespeare, Virgil or Homer, and all of those have shittier Hollywood franchises.


hollywood would marvelize the legendarium at best and make it into a star wars tier mess at worse anon


im fine with that, it might end up being slightly better than the most recent marvel crop or A24 alt-marvel schlock. Tolkien fans are obsessed with their sacred cow bullshit.


>I rather see a multi part silmarillion than the next fucking batch of marvel movies
you're seeing it now on amazon and it's basically a marvel movie


its just fanfiction (i like parts of it) because they can't even mention the name of galadriel's brother.


which sucks because they have the budget to do something actually pretty good with it. The parts that aren't just the writers masturbating about what made up characters should be like in a tolkien sim are pretty good.


I found it absolutely hilarious Saruman had not one but two barrels of kush in his tower lol


You know what? Imma say it. Fuck JRR Tolkien! So this dumb ass Rings of Power show comes out and the only criticism I ever see people make of the fucking thing is that there's people that aren't white in it and its disrespecting Tolkiens legacy. Good. Fuck that n!qqa! He's old and dead for decades now. Maybe his bitch ass shouldn't have made a whole ass fantasy franchise full of mostly white people and white humanoids to start with. Maybe this bitch ass faggot ass n!qqa shouldn't have made the only dark skinned people in his books allied with the villains of the whole story. Critical support for Bezos in his crusade against crusty old ass tired ass fantasy writing dead n!qqaz.


More like it's nothing but Bezos' own little vanity project mostly to try to get another "Game of Thrones" clone to try to test the viability of his streaming service. It's nothing but cynical greed and hubris.

Seriously chrring on a capitalist who only runis culture just like other capitalists.


Test the viability? Niqqa that shits been a heavyweight competitor in streaming for sometime. I was mostly joking about supporting Bezos anyhow, he probably has very little involvement with this if anything. But the culture your whinging over Amazon ruining is reactionary anyhow was my point. Sorry if you can't watch muh fantasy and have it full of your precious white people.


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You're obviously either a troll from /pol/ pretending to be a black liberal or a idiotic retarded reddit sakaioid.

The reason why we are against it is it's simply yet another example of corporations cynically using someone else's work and simply repeating what succeeded before to try to catch up in the current cultural zeitgeist.

Not to mention that this liberal nonsense is simply just them trying to keep the status quo and basically taring anyone who sees through their marketing to see the naked black hole of endless greed behind the curtain as "racist". How does it feel that your entire liberal ideals are being used to justify imperialism and American cultural hegemony.

Besides. my big issue is that their "Original Character DONUT STEEL' dwarf doesn't have a beard. Female dwarves have beards. This shows they did absolutely no research in the setting and are just lazy.


It honestly amazes me that people have such little time on this earth and they choose to spend their precious few hours and energy they have left getting upset about shit like this.
I'm aware this is all bullshit and all of the "culture warriors" are retards getting baited by obvious manufactured outrage to get people talking about the latest product™, but I still find it baffling they fall for it every. single. time. I almost forgot LOTR and Tolkien even existed were it not for some people I know IRL asking me what I think about Amazon ruining Tolkien's Anglo-Saxon fanfiction by putting The Blacks in it. Maybe instead of whining about some shitty show just pick up a better book uygha


>Claims to not be racist with Shapiro tier facts and logic
>Shows racism by assuming I have to be black, white, or have read a single thing by Sakai
Get yout shit together /Leftypol be more like this guy >>29329



Ah yes, totally a of reddit-tier retard coming in here and shitting up a thread to try to make leftypol look like a bunch of "racists".

How does it show racism to assume you're either white, black, or read Sakai?

And you were the only one who mentioned Shapiro here, buddy. Do you not have any reading comprehension?

>I almost forgot LOTR and Tolkien even existed were it not for some people I know IRL asking me what I think about Amazon ruining Tolkien's Anglo-Saxon fanfiction by putting The Blacks in it.

Yeah, sure you did, that totally happened and is not a part of your retarded bait at all.


I'm sorry anon but there are no known measurements as of yet to describe how little space fantashit occupies in my brain in my day to day life


> being this autistic about dwarves not having beards
tolkien fags are something else man.




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