Feels a bit cheap to me, some of the character stuff is weak, and Matt Smith as the evil tyrant prince is distracting.
uh… HBO is making it because they want money.
IDK if you could say it has any content (so far) that is notably meant to function as bourgeois propaganda. They are already doing pretty basic stuff about how in these times nobody cared about women's wellbeing or autonomy. If you know where things are going (it's based on a book) then it's possibly going to call into question girlboss narratives, which might leave a sour taste in some people's mouths. People didn't like how that went in GoT although it was made much worse by the terrible and rushed execution.
So far nobody's really questioning the legitimacy of Targaryen rule even though almost everybody in GoT took it for granted that they were bad and that overthrowing them was a good thing. It feels weird to be getting their perspective now, when other than Daenerys they were pretty universally hated in within the setting.
the evil prince shit apparently from what I've read and heard is that Matt's character will change and is a Grey character rather than entirely evil but we're yet to see that I guess, to me it seems like Dameon and Corlys are trying to stage some bourgeois revolution in the favour due to perceived "injustice" towards them feeling owed there power
yeah and they'll certainly get that money, already renwed for a season 2.
Hopefully we get to see other perspectives on the targaryens, we have gotten some outside perspective but that's only from Corlys but he's still in the kings inner circle so maybe not an entire outside perspective but an alternative one, also I read apparently that the king is supposedly loved by the peasantry but he's doing fuck all apart from festivities for the upper classes like Corlys stated
So how is this diff from s8 of G
got? Have those writers beenaxed and the original ones brought on or will this be shit too?
>>28504> yeah and they'll certainly get that money, already renwed for a season 2.
Yeah they had 10 million views for each of the first 2 episodes. That's not even counting late streams or anything I don't think. As long as they don't fuck up those numbers should be going up as word of mouth gets around that the new Thrones is good.>>28513
Dumb and Dumber (showrunners for GoT) nuked their own careers with that shit. This series was originally developed by GRRM, the author of the books, and the show is being run by completely different people. HBO, GRRM, the cast, and literally everybody else wanted GoT to last longer than it did. D&D cut it off abruptly at 8 seasons because Disney offered to give them a Star Wars trilogy. HBO should have probably replaced them with people who wanted to make the show but trusted their vision or whatever so they wrapped everything up too quickly and nothing made any sense.
>>28503>Matt's character will change and is a Grey character rather than entirely evil
literally everyone in GRRMiverse
People forget that Jaime Lannister's establishing character moment is attempting to murder a child by pushing him out of a tower
new lotr and got are pretty mid so far. I enjoy lotr more because i like middle earth more but the dialogue is definitely worse in that show.>>28519
the show was pretty much garbage after season 4, getting worse with each season. I quit in season 7 because I already thought it was unwatchable (really season 6 was a low point) at that point. So the whole season 8 ruined the show meme never made sense.
GRRMs history is too riddled with great man theory, feels pretty nonsensical that you would have an ecclesiastic order try to overthrow the throne - or some targaryen invent bourgeois notions of freedom because slavery is immoral. I actually think GRRM is kind of a hack in his world building.
granted this is only from watching the show, unlike lotr i haven't read the books - I tried but I thought the prose was shitty - so some of these complaints may be more from its translation to an HBO show rather than in the source. Like I've heard Daenerys is less of a mary sue in the books.
>>28537>the show was pretty much garbage after season 4
IMO the show got consistently worse each season. It's just that the ending was the worst they did and it seemed like they intentionally ruined all the major characters.>I actually think GRRM is kind of a hack in his world building.
Not an especially hot take, but fans usually don't like the series for its worldbuilding. A lot of the setting is just ripped off historical events, and it's supposed to be mostly mundane with not a lot of magic or fantastical elements.>>28538>Like I've heard Daenerys is less of a mary sue in the books.
Yes, the show arguably fumbled her entire character by making her too likable. One of the errors was thinking she is supposed to be fireproof, when her surviving the fire that hatched the dragons was supposed to be a one-time miracle. She suffers burns a few times in the books IIRC.
Matt's Acting at the start of ep 3 was so bad, what was that shouting for your enemy as if he was shouting for a friend
Finished the episode, his acting gets better when he makes his proper appearance.
Ep 3 was pretty good.
I liked the battle and the dragons are looking good. Overall i'm liking the show so far. Decent cast and plot and the dialogues aren't cringe though the smug princess is already getting a bit on my nerves.
It's a little distracting how much time skipping is happening tbh. We've already had a 6 month and 3 year gap between episodes.
smug princess trope is charming ish for now until I assume she ascends to some form of power or strategy or something.
Second part of the episode with the entire battle and discussing tactics etc…was on epic proportions, loved every second of it and yeah the dragon are looking great.
Yeah its alot of time skipping, but the character progression and change via time seems to be done decently? Obviously wouldn't be on par with character development done more slowly.
the Targaryen girl is ugly. can't fap to her unlike shota Bran, before his head turned into a pumpkin :(
>>28537>I actually think GRRM is kind of a hack in his world building.
Besides naming the western continent "Westeros" and the eastern continent "Essos" it's tolerable. >the show was pretty much garbage after season 4, getting worse with each season.
Agree. Season 5 was tolerable if you ignore the Dorne storyline. >GRRMs history is too riddled with great man theory, feels pretty nonsensical that you would have an ecclesiastic order try to overthrow the throne
I mean, is it? Happened quite a bit in history and the mendicants in the later Middle Ages were quite a revolutionary movement in times of the crisis of the 14th century.>or some targaryen invent bourgeois notions of freedom because slavery is immoral.
Feudalism is against slavery to a large degree. Daenerys still wants to turn you into a serf.
About the Great Man Theory, come on, there are dragons which basically function as nukes. Obviously someone in possession of them would have a massive advantage. >>28538>so some of these complaints may be more from its translation to an HBO show rather than in the source.
Book one has pretty mediocre writing. Book three and book four is when it is best. Daenerys is someone who stumbled over a bunch of dragon hatchlings by pure circumstance transforming into an unstable teenage girl because she is like 13 when the books starts. She constantly fawns over manly men and throws temper tantrums. If she does turn mad like in the show, it will be much more believable.
I mean, bad wording. We both know that the fat fuck will never even finish Winds of Winter.
Well, definitely a downgrade from GoT but I like it. That action scene last episode was really stupid, where he just goes full Rambo and solos the whole army. But it was very cool to watch. Dragons are cool, battles are cool so that can go a very long way in papering off weaknesses of the plot.
It's not so much weakness of the plot but weakness of the characterization. Daemon particularly feels like a cartoon character. The king is well acted but it seems a bit hollow? Same with the princess. I can't exactly put my finger on it but all the characters seem like silhouettes.
Those things aren't mutually exclusive. GoT's first three episodes were like that because of over a dozen characters but became plot-driven very quickly. Plus we don't know yet where the plot goes, Martin is notorious for weaving many promising threads but then fails to coalesce them.
I believe GoT went to shit after season 5 because it wasn't just D&D's incompetence but Martin hadn't an outline how he could untie all of this. In his books, the North, Dorne, Mereen are clusterfucks.
Watched the first episode and it exceeded my expectations.Sure, the dialog could have been sharper but I like the slow burn. Aesthetically it looks much better than GoT (season 1 of GoT had a small budget), I like the princess, she's cool, Daemon looks ugly but he is cool, so far nothing I can say for the advisors of the king, I am sure we gotta see more of them. Cutscenes between the jousting and the c-section was well done and tense.
Surprisingly little dragon shit which I tend to dislike because it feels like fan service.
>>28628>In his books, the North, Dorne, Mereen are clusterfucks.
They're clusterfucks, yeah, but I feel like nothing in them is inexplicable if D&D had read the books at all with any level of comprehension.
They (in)famously said that they wanted the show to appeal to football players so they took out all the complicated stuff like, uh, magic. Personally I feel like it's less that they wanted to appeal to that demographic and more that that's the level of their own ability to understand what's happening in the books. Martin gave them plenty of shit to work with and so even if they were vastly incompetent in what they cut, there was still a lot there for the rest of their team to work with.
But then when Martin's material ran out and they couldn't paint by numbers any more it all quickly fell the fuck apart.
>>28668>They're clusterfucks, yeah, but I feel like nothing in them is inexplicable if D&D had read the books at all with any level of comprehension.
I agree. And to give it to the GRRM, he is a careful writer with attention to detail, he doesn't rush through a plot if it isn't entirely coherent. The problem is, while I think if you'd lock him in a basement with a typewriter and only feed him when he wrote a page, he could probably finish one of the greatest fantasy series of all time, but I think he is just tired. He doesn't really care for the characters anymore, he's been with them since the early 90s. That is still reason for criticism especially considering his attitude.
D&D seem to be failed narcissists (George is a bit of a narcissist too, don't get me wrong) - remember the episode where Littlefinger pushes Cat's sister out the Moondoor? "Only Cat" was the iconic line here but out of stubborness and ego they had to change it to "Your Sister". Also I think they didn't understand the subtle detail in GRRM's vivid, sometimes gross descriptions. For example in the fight scenes. Instead of describing how professional warriors fight methodically, D&D went for ninja shit. >more that that's the level of their own ability to understand what's happening in the books
I mean they wrote Troy. That should give you a hint.>Martin gave them plenty of shit to work with and so even if they were vastly incompetent in what they cut, there was still a lot there for the rest of their team to work with.
Yeah, butchering book four just because it was slower was a mistake. The Expanse, in which the original authors have full editorial control over the script, went on with a slower season four after an eventful season three. It didn't hurt the show at all.
It's cool that the king is a bumbling nerd who is too nice and plays around with a little miniature set of his family's empire at its peak. Outside of that youndon't really get the sense that this is an empire in deep decline though.
Paddy Considine has grown on me. At first I thought he was a weird choice but given the (shitty) king he is supposed to be, he actually fits really well. He should feel out of place because Viserys is out of place and a bad ruler. I legit laughed when he said Otto taught him how to be king, like that was something to praise. That scene where he finally came to his senses and dismissed Otto over the obvious conflict of interest was well done. I was starting to feel like dropping the show tbh since I found it pretty mid so far, but I think I'll finish the season at least based on the strength of that writing.
The way they've been handling some of the other characters has been pretty disappointing though. Daemon comes across enigmatic even though the writers' comments suggest his motives and inner conflicts are supposed to be apparent to the audience. Matt Smith seems like the weakest actor by a mile IMO, but idk how much is him as an actor vs the directors vs the writers. Rhaenyra is getting replaced and obviously Viserys won't be around for long since she's getting the focus as queen. So we're relying on the weakest character/actor to maintain continuity there. Yikes.
Overall it seems like a bit of a rough start with funky pacing going too fast but there's obviously plenty of potential, and unlike GoT this show could definitely improve over time. They also have every incentive to make it as good as they can because they are trying to use this to launch an entire GoT cinematic universe. All I can say about that is hopefully GoT/GRRM learned their lesson and won't let bad decisions fuck over the whole project.>>28670
I think the decline is about to start, and Viserys is supposed to be like the failson of a better ruler, a sign of society's decadence. Him being a shitty king has probably been the highlight of the show for me. The fact that he needed Rhaenyra to make him boot Otto Hightower shows his lack of leadership skills and decisiveness.
Replying to a post from the main /tv/ thread that belongs here, about the sex scene>>28830>it is amusing though reading reddit comments where everyone is like #girlboss.
It's even more confusing because of the age gap going on. If you had a situation like this in real life people would be saying an adult shouldn't fuck a teenager regardless of how horny they are (teenagers do be horny). It's not called statutory rape because they don't want it
. It's because they're not mature enough to competently make the decision. (They do explicitly say she's of age in-universe though.) Of course she is also his literal boss, which makes it even weirder. I think there's an idea that somehow those factors cancel each other out or something, but that's not how it works at all. Two factors making the sex inappropriate just means it's more inappropriate. But hey, this is par for the course with romance stories. People love forbidden love, but for whatever reason don't distinguish much between stupid social taboos (a la Romeo & Juliet) and the ones that exist for a reason.>i interpreted it as her kind of passing on the trauma of her uncle (not)raping her
Intentional or not, this is accurate. Kids who get molested can become outwardly sexual (to an extreme and disturbing degree) because it seems normal to them and/or they are trying to deal with this dimension of life but are too immature to handle their (intense and conflicted) feelings and uninformed about what is appropriate.
When watching the show, I thought that this was Daemon's plan, to introduce her to sexuality and make her horny but then leave her to do what she wanted with it (probably expecting her to go for someone in the pleasure house), but the showrunners said they wanted Daemon to be turned off by Rhaenyra not being submissive. They had some other confusing comments about his sexuality after episode 1 so somebody between the writers and Matt Smith is really dropping the ball on conveying what is going on with the character.
The whole way they handled the sequence was weird as fuck. The way they talk about sex at first it sounds like Rhaenyra isn't familiar with the concept? But then she immediately becomes a horny teenager after making out and groping for a minute? And then she's ready to have a "perfect" first time after hiking back to the Red Keep from Flea Bottom, not awkward or confusing even though she has no experience, it's with someone who obviously isn't into it, and it takes like half an hour to doff full plate armor? All of this in one night? And then she wants another round the next day? The show has been moving at blinding speed but you'd think they would at least have this amount of change for a character happen more slowly in-universe
Bro Matt Smith is sooo fucking ugly I like Daemon as a character but why do they have to choose that guy to portray a supposed badass.
It's pretty surprising that the chick who plays Rhaenyra (looked at her social media before, she seemed insufferable at first) turns out to be a pretty decent actress, although I think her character is written pretty well. Viserys is definitely the highlight of the show so far, Considine seems like a good fit.
Otto Hightower was also written decently, you think it's a good guy at first but it creeps up on you that the guy is basically an asshole who comes over like another Tywin ordered on Wish.
>GRRM learned their lesson and won't let bad decisions fuck over the whole project.
They booted him in season 5 of GoT and that's exactly when the show went to complete shit (although you could observe some problems already in season 3 and 4). With HotD (kek) it seems like GRRM has full editorial control as an executive producer and you can see it in much better writing. The characters actually talk old-fashioned instead of guys from the hood like what happened towards the end in GoT. It's not like we are going to see A Dream of Spring anyways unless someone takes over the books, so we might as well get a fresh start with a new show. So far it looks good and I am positively surprised that it isn't just "omg dragons" fanservice soyfacing which I feared and a nice slow burn.
Also I think that massive jump back in time seems like a good decision after all because it allows for more creativity without being worried so much about continuity problems.
Ahahahahhahahah i was thinking the exact same thing lol
i'm on ep3 and man it must be so awkward to have your bestie become your step-mother, like so creepy for viserys to do that
about aegon, what would happen if a commoner during that time, named their kid after a king too? straight up death sentence?>>28876
i mean, it's a show about a royal line…>>28878
why did they boot him?
I don't expect a Targaryen/ Spanish branch Habsburg to look like a model
He is perfect for the job
>>28910>about aegon, what would happen if a commoner during that time, named their kid after a king too? straight up death sentence?
Didn't happen AFAIK. Commoners all had the same forenames as royalty, they were called John, Wiliam, Henry etc. just like kings.
Not sure but I think it was a bit different in Asia, especially China, because Chinese nobility had "court names" so I'm sure there might be a problem if a commoner assumed that as well, depends on the dynasty though.
In the show you gotta remember that the Targs are not originally from Westeros so their names always stand out and it might be seen as offensive if another one just styled himself like a Targaryan. Viserys doesn't strike me as a cruel person though. He might be incompetent, but so far we haven't seen him commit any acts of cruelty other than killing a stag. In GoT Ned Stark killed a basically innocent man in the first ten minutes.
Now that you say it, Rhaenyra isn't bad looking, but still looking a bit off as well. I wonder if the looks were important for the casting, we know that GRRM sometimes does fucked up shit like doing this intentional, but imagine being the actor who plays Daemon, being cast because you look inbred.
His squeaky teenager voice bothers me more than his looks.>>28920
/tv/ has been calling Rhaenyra "monke" which tbh is not inaccurate. Somebody even made a "my ancestor" meme with her and Daenerys. I have mixed feelings because it's mean to shit on people's looks but they do be looking like some inbred royals which fits the story.>>28910>i'm on ep3 and man it must be so awkward to have your bestie become your step-mother, like so creepy for viserys to do that
In Viserys's defense he wasn't exactly spoiled for options and Otto very much manipulated them into that arrangement.>why did they boot him?
Because Dan and David are trust fund kiddies with delusions of grandeur who later fucked off and sank the show the moment Disney waved a Star Wars deal in their face.>>28878>Otto Hightower was also written decently
Yeah, so far I think they have done a better job than GoT at making the characters feel more "gray" from the start. It's clear they all have their own agendas that they pursue for personal reasons vs how Starks and Lannisters felt a lot more black and white. They are handling the politics a lot better. Where GoT was basically everyone had their loyalties and plotted more or less overtly against their enemies, here the relationships are evolving as the situation changes. Daemon and Corlys teaming up. Otto getting booted. House Velaryon playing with marrying into the Free Cities to get a marriage to Rhaenyra.>So far it looks good and I am positively surprised that it isn't just "omg dragons" fanservice soyfacing
Well the show was GRRM's idea to begin with. He spent years developing it (instead of writing the books lol) before he pitched it to HBO. I would expect the other spinoffs to have more fanservice because they aren't his personal pet project. But IDK maybe HBO will see from this show that you don't have to pander. These few episodes have had a huge viewership.>>28919>He might be incompetent, but so far we haven't seen him commit any acts of cruelty other than killing a stag.
One of Viserys's biggest problems is his unwillingness to be "cruel." Putting aside the ethics etc of monarchy, being in charge of anything significant requires hard choices that not everyone likes. He is too much of a baby to take action that will bother someone and in the process gets more people hurt. It's like someone faced with the Trolley Problem but unwilling to pull the lever and kill the one guy because he doesn't want to look bad, so he lets the five people die instead.>In GoT Ned Stark killed a basically innocent man in the first ten minutes.
That's not intentional cruelty though, that's being Lawful Stupid. There's a lot going on in that scene thematically, but a big part is to illustrate the decay of institutions. Literally the entire reason the Night's Watch exists is to guard against and warn people of the Others/(White Walkers in the show), but it's been so long that this has been forgotten. So when they actually meet them, the NW has no idea what's going on and the sole survivor flees with PTSD from the situation. He ends up meeting the Warden of the North, which in theory should be the best case scenario for delivering the warning. But because nobody remembers their history and the guy is too scared to properly explain, Ned's like "RIP Bozo." In that respect that whole scene/story is a deconstruction of the old tropes about prophecies and setting up a militant order to prepare for distant future problems (with not much to keep them busy or keep the memory alive in the meantime). It also illustrates very well how rules/laws exist for a particular context, and outside that context or if it is forgotten they stop functioning correctly.
Does anyone think the king and the hand look way too alike? I straight up thought it was a double role until someone pointed out that the hand is played by Curt Conners from TASM>>28927> would expect the other spinoffs to have more fanservice
THERE ARE MORE SPIN-OFFS??!??
>>/tv/ has been calling Rhaenyra "monke" which tbh is not inaccurate
she is hella cute but yeah she does look "distinct" like a royal
her father looks more like monkey tbh, he has that frontal chimp like lip, jaw area
I once read he was a "Homer Targaryen" and every time I see him I can't laugh at it.
>>28928>THERE ARE MORE SPIN-OFFS??!??
asoiaf/game of thrones worked because the targaryens were mostly irrelevant at that point in the setting's history, and had a diverse cast of characters that were all unique and had unique interweaving stories in an extremely uncertain civil war
basically a fantasy war and peace
this is just standard costume drama intrigue
YES, that's the thing he has with homer in common in his mouth region>>28930
All of these are also based on GRRM's writing or…? Damn I wouldn't mind
Hope some of these are sequels to GoT
I want to see what happens next
Anybody else think EP3 the crabfeeder fight was lame?
Like they built up a villain as usual great, but the ending was just lame, and jobber shit
How did he even kill the guy, Just nothing
there are two spin-off series, nice
i did not know this series dated back from the 1990s
makes you wonder what other books series are like GoT, just waiting to be discovered
I've never heard of the books before, were they very popular?
Yeah that was stupid. Rest of the episode was great though, the hunt was really cool.>How did he even kill the guy, Just nothing
The guy had a shitty armor, a fucking pickaxe as a weapon and looked like infected with the last stage of skincancer. Not too far-fetched that Daemon would be able to kill him.
>>28953>All of these are also based on GRRM's writing or…? Damn I wouldn't mind
Hedge Knight is based on the Dunk and Egg short stories (I think that's what they were) by GRRM. The rest I think are loosely based on the setting not existing writings so much. They are stories that have been referenced in his books but I don't think they have material to directly adapt like with GoT or HotD. And the Jon Snow show is just a sequel to GoT without any material to adapt at all.>>28954>Anybody else think EP3 the crabfeeder fight was lame?
They didn't even show it lol. I thought the battle was kind of weak, like, why have they been struggling with this guy so long if they can beat the forces in a single rush like this? Felt like the writers didn't really bother making it make sense.>How did he even kill the guy, Just nothing
Well based on the corpse he cut him in half lol>>28955
The book series had a small but dedicated fanbase before the show blew it up. There are loads and loads of fantasy and scifi books out there that could be adapted. GRRM has written some of them lol. But you do kind of need something special to make a big popular show. You need good material to begin with, a team who can adapt it effectively, and a studio with the budget to give it the production quality it needs. It's important to point out that GRRM was majorly involved in developing both GoT and HotD for TV, because he was both the author of the source material and
he has a lot of experience as a TV writer. That's a factor that gave these shows a big advantage.>>28968>and looked like infected with the last stage of skincancer.
This probably will not come up in the show later, but it looked like greyscale, the disease that people around Old Valyria have. It came up in the plot of GoT a few times, with a couple notable characters having it. It's supposed to be highly contagious (sometimes) so it's a bit odd to show Daemon touching the guy's corpse and then just forgetting about that character detail.
maybe that disease caused the doom of old valeria or a disease that came out of it
it's so confusing that valriea is a place but also a people
targeryians and valerians have a shared history together, they need to explore it more
were they jealous of the rise of targeryians
did targeryians destroy valriea
>>29006>What a bad time in history>Meanwhile our real world between 1917 and 2017, just 100 years and the technological progress is insane>Industrial revolution with dragons, how would that happen
Somebody gets mad at the dragon for spewing fire on things or people and blows up the dragon with a heatseaking missile.
Repeat that often enough and Dragons go extinct.
>>29005>it's so confusing that valriea is a place but also a people
Valyria is the country. Valyrians are the people of the country. Valyrian is also the language.Velaryon
is the name of the black house in HotD (the other one besides Targaryens). Lots of the characters from Valyria have very similar names too. It's an aspect of fantasy that is cringe and GRRM should have probably not done.>targeryians and valerians have a shared history together, they need to explore it more
In the books they also apparently were marrying into each other for generations which makes it weird that one family is white and the other is black. GRRM should have had the balls to just have the Targs be black when they made GOT. He did consider it.>were they jealous of the rise of targeryians
They are a lesser house because they don't have dragons. Targs can control dragons because of whatever the special sauce is.>did targeryians destroy valriea
There is a theory that this happened because they had the foresight or prophecy to leave before the Doom of Valyria.>>29006>HOTD takes place 200 years before GoT but I don't even notice any difference
Medieval stasis is a common but silly trope. At least there are some justifications for it in the setting however, like the chaotic climate fucking things up regularly. They are actually supposed to be in decline from the prior age of heroes or whatever they call it which is why there are so many epic castles and other structures around that nobody really knows how they were built. It's possible (kind of implied) that the random seasons are a more recent thing and might be the cause of the decline.>Industrial revolution with dragons, how would that happen
Dragons are limited in number so they don't scale up like industrial machines. They might help you with primitive accumulation though.>Spending 30 million on a pilot and locking it away just because you didn't vibe with it
Bruh the Batgirl movie was 90 million dollars and they deleted it for a tax writeoff lol.
Ohh that makes more sense
They're making a spin-off of them too, "The Seasnake"
>they had the foresight or prophecy to leave before the Doom of Valyri
that one chick who dreamed of Valeria
what did she know…
Yeah, Warner Bros is crazy with all this money, At least people got a job for a while
If I ever get a job with HMAX, I know to loot everything cause it's not gonna last
Well there wasn't much technological progress between 700 AD and 900 AD, or in antiqity over certain time periods.>>29008
In GoT Euron killed a dragon with a simple ballista. Episode 3 of HotD also showed the dragon retreating after a volley of arrows. I think the implication is that the dragons aren't that superweapon they are made out to be, it's mostly just Targaryen propaganda.
>>29032>In the books they also apparently were marrying into each other for generations which makes it weird that one family is white and the other is black. GRRM should have had the balls to just have the Targs be black when they made GOT. He did consider it.
Can you imagine the butthurt if they made a black family ruling over a completely white empire? The cuckold memes on /tv/ would drop in the thousands.>They are a lesser house because they don't have dragons. Targs can control dragons because of whatever the special sauce is.
My suspicion, also based on Visery's monolog in the first episde, it was probably that there was political debate in Valyria whether they should continue to breed dragons and Targs just went rogue and did it anyway, fucking the entire place up. Weren't they already exiled in Dragonstone when the Doom of Valyria happened?>It's possible (kind of implied) that the random seasons are a more recent thing and might be the cause of the decline.
Yeah. It's that they never talk about the seasons in HotD if it's such a big deal. I am exciting to see some parts of the North and Wall, the Night's Watch in full capacity and not declined.>Medieval stasis is a common but silly trope.
Agree. Europe had an economic boom between 1000 AD and 1300 AD, then feudalism went into perpetual crisis.>>28930
The Sea Snake show could be cool. Don't care for the rest.
>>29062>If I ever get a job with HMAX, I know to loot everything cause it's not gonna last
The Discovery merger is burning shit down as we speak. The GoT spinoffs may not even be safe (especially the animated one since the current CEO "doesn't believe in" animation or whatever lmao). There's talk that Comcast may move to acquire Warner-Discovery.>>29076>Can you imagine the butthurt if they made a black family ruling over a completely white empire? The cuckold memes on /tv/ would drop in the thousands.
Well, given the context that GoT is after the Targs are deposed /tv/ would probably think it was based. Come to think of it Dany would probably be seen as villainous by way more people from the start and her going apeshit at the end probably would not have been such a shock.>it was probably that there was political debate in Valyria whether they should continue to breed dragons and Targs just went rogue and did it anyway, fucking the entire place up.
Interesting idea, but idk if there's anything to suggest that specifically.>Weren't they already exiled in Dragonstone when the Doom of Valyria happened?
I think the official story is they left voluntarily but that could be fake news. After all, who is going to correct the record since Valyria is gone?
>It's that they never talk about the seasons in HotD if it's such a big deal.
To be fair the story has mostly taken place in the south where winter isn't so bad. Even the Long Night was a bigger deal in da Norf because it's much colder there. It also happened before Targs arrived (as well as the Andals and Rhoynar), so we heard about it so much because da Norf are mostly descended from the First Men who have cultural PTSD from it.>I am exciting to see some parts of the North and Wall, the Night's Watch in full capacity and not declined.
Yeah supposedly this is the height of Targ power in Westeros and events that precipitate the decline
so they will probably try to show off these kinds of things (especially considering the success of GoT and the immediate success of HotD means they will likely have the budget for it).
>>29078>especially considering the success of GoT and the immediate success of HotD means they will likely have the budget for it
Finally HBO opening the purse huh? I bet it must have felt nice for GRRM to see a proper royal hunting party after he described it so vividly often and in GoT Robert's hunt were 5 guys walking around with spears.
He's on record saying the 4 dudes innawoods hunting scene was his least favorite scene in GoT.
He has a weird obsession with medieval opulence, royal hunts, feasts, weddings. Understandable if you look at the guy.
Personally, I thought the "Tyrion getting knocked out before the battle" was worse. Could have done that off screen without such a clear cop out.
New episode tomorrow, Any predictions?
I think there will be a ball
I also found that HOTD has a making of for each episode https://www3.zoechip(DOT)com/watch-tv/the-house-that-dragons-built-87373.8946679
>>29083> Understandable if you look at the guy.
lol, what would GRMM do if he existed during those times, Is any character his self-insert or extremely special to him?
Lord Manderly or Samwell Tarly.
They will attempt some kind of kino thing to show the transition from young Rhaenyra to old Rhaenyra because apparently this is the last episode with Milly Alcock.>>29113>>29116
He has said multiple times that Samwell Tarly is most similar to him realistically.
I can't believe daemon did that
He ripped out his shirt and started doing push-ups while some strange song played in the background that sounded like "haevesics, p-p-pop my phants"
Bro I am not done with episode five but in that conversation Rhaenyra had with Laenis Velaryon on the beach, was that comment about goose and that she likes to eat that instead a remark about her not liking to fuck black dudes?
I think the reason was that he didn't bring a proper sword. Look at that blade, that's a shortsword at best.
nvm it was about him being gay
Watched episode 5, another great episode. Although I absolutely did not thought it is in character for Criston Cole to snap like that.
>>29142>was that comment about goose and that she likes to eat that instead a remark about her not liking to fuck black dudes?
For real it did come off like that for a second. Between that and Ser Gaybash it felt like the episode was throwing a bone to the anti-woke crowd or something.>>29145
Doesn't happen that way in the books. It's a tourney "accident" instead. They didn't want to spend the budget on another tourney scene and/or have 3
in one season.
bro really thought his dick was better than the iron throne
>nooo i broke my stupid nerd chastity vow, marry me so i can restore it!!!
His morals are a bit spookey, but him telling Rhaenyra to not be her side bitch was pretty cool. The show has some scenes showing that women far higher ranking than you can be abusive for the man. I mean their first sex was barely consensual.
So far how politics go the show has done very well to depict women's issues without forgetting that feudalism is shitty for everyone, including men.
Creston the Mad Cuck needs to be put down like the dog he is
I was joking but he straight up commited a hate crime
I feel bad for the gay dudes :(
Team Rhaynera for ever, I fucking hate Alicent and her team-up with him now and Daemon is just insane>>29150
True, that part in the forest, he reminds her that she's complaining about her forced marriage, he tells her that anyone else would gladly switch places and his family's position
This is after all still a time where only rich people got to be fat and nobody had to watch their calories
People dropped dead from the oddest diseases
>>29150>His morals are a bit spookey
Maybe, but the punishment he'd get if he was found out is very real. Joffrey badly miscalculated, not just by assuming that Rhaenyra/Criston was a similar situation to him/Laenor, but by not considering that his secret vs Cristons carry very very different weight for each of them. On the one hand he was arguably doing a gesture of goodwill. On the other, he revealed he knew too much and
that he didn't realize the gravity of the situation and
that he was a blabbermouth. Criston was definitely acting out of fear/rage/whatever but he kills him in the books too and it's probably the correct calculated move from the angle of self-defense/preservation.>I mean their first sex was barely consensual.
He literally said no and tried to get out of it. What was he gonna do, arrest the princess he's sworn to protect? Btw this is a social context where rape is basically considered a property crime whereby a woman's "value" in a marriage transaction is "ruined." Consent is barely a consideration when it happens to a woman.>So far how politics go the show has done very well to depict women's issues without forgetting that feudalism is shitty for everyone, including men.
I mean yeah as dumb as (lethal) fights breaking out during the tourney was, there were some thematic layers to that the way they intercut it with the birth scene.>>29151
Everyone keeps calling him a cuck/incel but he's literally the opposite. Laenor is the one to get cucked. Criston is the Dornish BVLL. He just wanted to be more than the fuccboi because fuccbois lose penis privilege.>I feel bad for the gay dudes :(
Blame the writers for burying more gays. His death was because he was an idiot, only indirectly because he was gay. If he didn't take a stupid risk without feeling out the situation/personalities first he'd be alive.>Team Rhaynera>picking teams in the GoTverse
asking for trouble lol
I forget who are baratheons again? The fat guy who rebels against the targareyins and dies to a boar
The guy who got stabbed by the kid seemed like one, since he had a stag in his clothes.
I get why the rebelled now, What a crazy kingdom
Has there ever been a wedding ceremony/related in Westeroes that hasn't been bloody?
A world like Albania before Hoxha, where blood is paid with blood
>>29123>Last episode with her
Life takes gifts too early always
Those guys were minor houses (Brackens and Blackwoods). Baratheons are lords of the Stormlands, right south of the Crownlands (where King's Landing is). The scene is in Storm's End, the Baratheon castle. Those minor houses are from the riverlands, another neighboring region (northwest).
house logos>1: blackwood>2: bracken>3: baratheon
You can see why it's confusing lol.
>>29178>Albania before Hoxha, where blood is paid with blood
I gotta read that Enver Hoxha book
Because it's awesome and cool
cesseraxx is my favourite dragon
he also has some disability i think, can't remember what
im watching the making of and it really feels like the Sea Snake show is happening
they made so many props for him, it can't just be for this show
what do you think that show will be about? did GRRM write about him or is this truly be new OC of the HBO writers
>>29151>Team Rhaynera for ever,
t. Ser Cole
Enjoy your smug Targayen princess. At least you got to fuck her once, now you'll be on a leash like Mormont the turbo simp
>get dishonored after she came home from some borderline incest sex action with Daemon in a brothel, high on coke >Viserys, a nerd, but nonetheless wise ruler of a long-time stable kingdom, sacks his trusted advisor because he has a weak spot for females and of course for his retarded daughter >Smug princess all of a sudden agrees to marry. Smug princess tells her future husband right away that she dishonored you and intends to use you further as her sex toy >you seriously think this deranged person loves you>you ask her to marry you, she declines>not so bright bf of gay husband accidently tells you how fucked you are >you murder him on the wedding of your mistress, ruining for Viserys this very important day>seppuku yes/no? >meanwhile, smug princess flirts and almost makes out with Daemon again, this time right in front of Viserys>Viserys collapses
>>29246>did GRRM write about him or is this truly be new OC of the HBO writers
He went on a bunch of fantasy adventures, hence all the trophies in his castle (shameless advertising for the new show lol). IDK how much explicit material there is about them, but I think it's along the lines of a mention here and there of this or that cool thing he did. So they'd have plenty of freedom to do what they want with those stories. GRRM probably would want to be at least a little involved. Anything not to finish the book series.
Yup and this all began with season 5 because it's then when GRRM apparently has less and less involvement and it is in season 5 I think when we get that "prophecy" which isn't in the book I think about Arya killing the Night King who also doesn't exist in the books. Season 5 is when everything began to go to shit.
Speaking of the prophecy, the only really terrible part of this show is when they bring it up. They're just reminding us how shitty the ending of GoT was. We know the prophecy was stupid, stop trying to hype it.
What is Viserys 1's tax policy? What will Rhaenyra's tax policy be?
why do you hate seeing a women slay?
she was my goat ever since she rode that dragon into daemon's castle and mogged him
that's a true ruler, wit and prowess
btw isn't ser cole now batting for lady alicent's team? or is he still pinning for her?
nvm don't spoil me>>29254>(shameless advertising for the new show lol)
shit i just realized that, we are getting played
Joffrey was a progressive monarch when you realize he was going in the step of a permanent royal army and raising taxes not only on the small folk but also the lords paramount a la Henry 8 or any of the early modern monarchs that basically consolidated most of their political power.
>>29282>Be a medieval king>Your lands have a rich history of chemistry and poisons>Not having a meal taster
If he had gone with the tax reform since the throne was bankrupt he would have needed dozens of them
>>29264>it is in season 5 I think when we get that "prophecy" which isn't in the book I think about Arya killing the Night King who also doesn't exist in the books.
damn I kinda forgot
that happened but you are correct except they put that in season 3
this is why the actually killed him
still the most fucked up got killer
why would you kill hot babes for no reason, just sadistic
i think he would've become like mageor the cruel
does reincarnation exist in GoT
what is the universe called
>>29312>I don't know who is enjoying this show more, those who know the lore or novice viewers getting lore dropped each episode
It's an excellent idea for content to adapt from a marketing perspective for exactly this reason and the dynamic between the groups. You get people cryptically posting about things that are about to happen (like which team they're on) that gets noobs intrigued and hyped. There's also lots of speculation about how thing will be adapted, because the premise of the book is that the narrators are unreliable because they are chronicling history that they don't fully know. I'm waiting to see this minichad.>Alt Shift X
Yeah there's a whole cottage industry of people explaining the "deep lore" lol. I think the other big one is Hax Dogma but idk if they are following HotD. Alt Shift X seems to have the best production value with the visual aids.
who is he
i hope he makes fun of daemon
i remember there was a funny GoT-esque parody internet animation that included a jester character
Mushroom, one of two main sources about the events of the show. He is basically allowed to eavesdrop on all kinds of conversations because nobody thinks he's a threat, being a jester and a dwarf. His version of the story is the more scandalous of the two, full of claims about people fucking.
Timeskip episode today
"Joffery" that baby is gonna die this season
I want that creepy metal legged fuck dead
I just realized they were his family he did that to
How the fuck did this happen to my man Viserys, Alicent was just some commoner, Now she holds power over his grace?
Yeah, he made himself Lord of Harrenhall with that trick.>>29406
No, she's daughter of Otto Hightower. She's nobility. Viserys should have booted Otto much earlier. This is all because of his ambition pretty much. He finessed Alicent into being queen consort and planted the ideas of succession crisis in her head. The marriage offer would have quashed the potential succession issue if Alicent was reasonable (or if Viserys had a spine since he could go over her head about it), but being used as a political tool tends to fuck people up. So Otto was the saboteur but the buck stops with Viserys for letting things get to that point.
Fuck he really did that, They didn't show much of his relations with them, whether they treated him badly
It was so cold-blooded, seeing that hand pop out, Fuck
Tearing out the tongues on top of that, He's the evilest fucker in westeroes rn
>but being used as a political tool tends to fuck people up
Do you think the rat is making him realize how bad things are now?
I really thought Harwin was gonna live long with the way, people were talking about him
He was so handsome
>>29408>He's the evilest fucker in westeroes rn
Pretty much.>He was so handsome
Harwin looks like gigachad IRL, but he was too hotheaded and shouldn't have gotten the princess pregnant THREE times lol.>Do you think the rat is making him realize how bad things are now?
Doesn't matter cuz Viserys has no spine. He would just keep ignoring it.
The rat is probably going to be important given how much they are showing it. Won't say why but there are theories.
I feel bad for child actors
I watched some recaps vids and now it's feels very motivated that they ended both rahneyra's and daemon's lovers in the same episode, with the same fate fire
It's sad, but it's like they're planning to bring that "OTP" again
Also anything think it's kinda fucked that Layena just upped and dipped? Anyone women in that time would in that situation, but it was a little hilarious
Like if I was there, I would like just threaten the suicide by Vaghara until he promised he wouldn't go ahead with the caseran
I honestly felt like Daemon wasn't going to follow his brother, He doesn't seem to care about having heirs\
The dragon was so sad and old :(>>29410>shouldn't have gotten the princess pregnant THREE times lol
Those punches at the wedding to rescue her, Really sealed the deal for her lol
>but there are theories
There's a small footnote in westorosi history where the rat and visery's team up and he ratallouie's the iron throne with him providing him the spine to fight back>>29477
Why did his mom make him delete it
They totally stole that scene with Aegon jerking off in the window from The Boys.
New actors are good. I love the new Alicent, she nails it. Kid actors are fitting as well.
They need to stop with the birth porn, it's getting repetitive. Yes, we know, giving birth is hard especially with no modern medicine.
I still get the feeling they deliberately want to appeal to an "anti-woke" crowd as they don't follow most conventions I've seen in shows the last years; and they are doing a good job. It's a show about powerful women struggling with their role in a patriarchal society but never once it feels patronising or forced. Fucking Ben Shapiro reacts to it on his show and likes it. Although I will admit, killing off the gays and the black women, and making the cripple depraved and evil, is an old TV trope I could live without.
>>29484>They totally stole that scene with Aegon jerking off in the window from The Boys
More like Succession, Aegon is so much like Roman
A brat, in line of a big empire, doesn't care much, only does for the ego
Then again, all three are a bit same
But I'm pretty sure Shitlander did that after getting his ass beat or something
These two only did it for the thrill of feeling better than commoners
> the cripple depraved and evil, is an old TV trope I could live without
Very true, I was trying to insult his ass but I kept coming up with something ableist
I finally decided on insulting him based on his shoe choice
>>29480>Why did his mom make him delete it
because he posted cringe>>29480>There's a small footnote in westorosi history where the rat and visery's team up and he ratallouie's the iron throne with him providing him the spine to fight back
lol but the actual theory (potential major spoilers) is that Larys Strong is a greenseer/warg like Bran Stark and is spying on people with rats and possibly with the weirwood trees
.>>29484>They totally stole that scene with Aegon jerking off in the window from The Boys.
100% lol. It also appears to be the same window (or at least the same set) where King Tommen commits suicide
late in GoT.>New actors are good.
Yep, across the board. I was surprised how much I liked Laenor and his version of the character.
>I still get the feeling they deliberately want to appeal to an "anti-woke" crowd as they don't follow most conventions I've seen in shows the last years; and they are doing a good job.
I get this feeling too but I would say they are way
overshooting the mark.
They did Laena really dirty by not even referencing how she got Vhagar, just the fact that she had to earn her. They even teased it when Laena was introduced (as a child that Viserys was not keen to marry), talking about Vhagar being missing and Laena's fascination with dragons. But they don't even discuss how Laena went on a whole quest to find her. And then in the same episode we first see Laena as an adult she dies. My one big gripe about the show so far is how hard a lot of the female characters have been getting jobbed. They also did Rhea extremely dirty, dying in the same scene she's introduced. These are characters who actually do shit in the book but they basically only appear in the show to get bridges dropped on them. With Aemma in the first episode it's one thing (especially since it's a major point of transition to kick off the series) and helps establish some of the themes, but it's starting to get tiresome IMO considering the book treats these characters better than "women exist to be fridged." It's largely a consequence of the show moving so fast and that character deaths like these are a major recurring plot point and therefore something you really can't skip. I think this season is really just trying to establish the broad family dynamics so that the rest of the series can flesh out the coming war.
What is up with all those bad reviews here?https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/house_of_the_dragon/s01/reviews?type=user
Are those paid Amazon shills from Rings of Power or are people just this dumb that they can't follow the plot? The one good thing about HotD is that you have to pay attention and not have cheap exposition like in the first GoT episode where they literally introduce every character by Arya pointing at them. And I didn't even read the book and walked in blind, and could follow just fine.
Also, people don't appreciate a slow burn these days. Even though GoT also wasn't that fast-paced.
Imagine being this bitter that you won't even give one star because something isn't up your alley.
There is even the occasional retard that complains about wokeness, even though this is like the most anti-woke show in years. When will those people be satisfied, when it's literally like Conan the Barbarian?
Filtered:>There is no protagonist or antagonist so you can't root for anyone and eventually you don't really care what happens to the characters.>It has none of the assets that made game of thrones compelling and a must watch.>My main issue with this is they have given me no character to care about. None of them is sympathetic or amusing or witty or any of the many hooks that draw me into a series.>No one really wants anything so who cares what happens?>Clearly they are milking it and drawing the show out.>My honest opinion is that while I was invested and did like the show I cannot support a show that hates me for my political beliefs.>Apart of from the characters having the same names as the first series, the narratives have changed completely, without any completion or explanation of what is actually happening.>Soap-opera.>Succession, where Gulfstreams are replaced with dragons and castles substitute for office towers. Sadly, without the snappy dialogue, acting, or plot. It's inconceivable that this is the "better" of the two series HBO commissioned.>Sitting around tables, talking about weddings and heirs. Boring and slow. What the hell happened?
Decent points:>Second-rate characters die so quickly that there is no sympathy for them. Do we have to be sad about the death of someone who has seen 3 times in all time, and who has two lines of text?>but show is rushed with the constant extreme time jobs every two episodes>Too much replacement of actors to which they are already accustomed.>From the constant time skips without informing audience, to unexplained cliffhangers or character reasoning lost in time just skipping ahead, to overall cast swaps
>>29500>>There is no protagonist or antagonist so you can't root for anyone and eventually you don't really care what happens to the characters.
I've seen some reactions where people love the girl boss Raenyra acting like it's black and white and she could do no wrong and when Alicent is doing her queen mothering business they got triggered. Raenyra is at best equivalent to an incompetent asshole king that was Rob that made tons of bastards without a thought to the Realm. The best character in GoT: The Spider (in my opinion) would most likely side with Alicent as a person more fitting for the Realm as a whole. Obviously Alicent isn't perfect which is what makes ASOIAF a great series, but when it comes to the big picture she's better for the Realm. Raenyra just squanders everything the way Robert Baratheon squanders everything with his negligence.
>>29498>Most anti-woke show in years
This literally means absolutely nothing. There is no such thing as "woke" or "not woke" that shit is autistic conspiracy brained garbage. These days "woke" only means black actors or women who do more than just be submissive cardboard things. I mean even back in 1977 Star Wars was called "too white" and we got Lando in Empire. And then n fuckin 1983 we got a much more diverse cast for Return of the Jedi even though they were relegated to just pilots in scenes. Would you actually call those movies fuckin woke? No dude like I said, there is no such thing as wokeness in movies or tv series or anything. In fact do you want to actually know what's one of the most woke movies out there? Snowpiercer bitch but no one goes out of their way to call it woke because no one points out the racial make up of the cast but the class criticism.
>>29492>They even teased it when Laena was introduced
Very true, I didn't even realise there was going to be a pay-off
It was very cool lore building but they fumbled without telling us how she completed her quest
Why are they moving the show so fast, I'm confused
I thought each season is going to be about each house, if it's just going to be war the next seasons, they should slowly tend to it>>29501
I don't understand how Alicent is better for the realm, They've shown nothing
They created so many props for this show man, I'm watching the EP6 making of and they half maked the books in the library lol
But anyone else think it's kinda fucked they mess with these real life old castles and change them?
Granted pigeons were living in them before but still>>29502
Snowpiercer is one of the most woke? I mean it did focus on class, but I don't think that much
Can you expand further?
>>29508>Why are they moving the show so fast, I'm confused
1st season will be the lead-up to the Dance, and the actual war will be the next seasons. They probably didn't like the idea of multiple seasons of buildup for various reasons including being accused of being too slow and not having enough material to fill 2 seasons instead of 1.>>29501
Yeah the whole idea is that nobody is particularly good. People are confused about this because the TV interpretation of House Stark made them come across as at worst a very light shade of grey. Even Arya who becomes a murderous assassin is portrayed as yass queen instead of how the books makes her story about a child losing innocence, being traumatized, and recruited as a child soldier. The show really passed a lot of things through a "hollywood filter.">The best character in GoT: The Spider (in my opinion) would most likely side with Alicent as a person more fitting for the Realm as a whole.
He probably would, because her son could be plied with lewd paintings into doing whatever Varys told him. Similarly to how Margery usurped Cersei's influence over Tommen.
BTW people are mad at Alicent not because of qualifications (which the show doesn't seem to care about that much at this point), but because in the last episode she needlessly inflamed the conflict. Nobody else in King's Landing gives a fuck about MUH RULES except sir krispy kreme. Rhaenyra was not coming for her kids, and definitely would have done the marriage to avert the conflict (which btw doesn't just endanger the nobles - wars of succession kill loads of commoners). Insofar as Alicent is willing to stoke a war over paranoia, she is worse than Rhaenyra. And the fact that she bumbled her way into enabling Larys to do a mass murder by arson makes her seem incompetent in a dangerous way.>>29512>They created so many props for this show man, I'm watching the EP6 making of and they half maked the books in the library lol
Yeah, the production value can never be faulted in these shows any more. We're a far cry from GoT season 1 where the "royal hunt" was 4 guys walking through the woods.>But anyone else think it's kinda fucked they mess with these real life old castles and change them?
IDK enough about it to have a firm opinion but old castles are commercialized in a lot of ways that are probably more damaging than this. At least when they are being exploited for money there is incentive to try to maintain them somewhat rather than letting them crumble.
Should be noted that most castles do not exist any more because they were usually built form wood and have long ago rotted away. Stone castles (and buildings in general) were always the minority but are vastly overrepresented in the archaeological record.
>>29502>No dude like I said, there is no such thing as wokeness in movies or tv series or anything
That's simply not true.
Are you really denying the use of ostensible social progressivism as a marketing tactic? Are you new here?
Marketing and what tabloids say about a film with a diverse cast are two different things. Annihilation was an all woman cast and never marketed as progressive despite the fact that it could've been easily marketed as such. Like I said, wokeness is a non existent spook.
Was there a distinction between in nobility in stone castles and wood castles?
Also in the episode they talked about architecture of westeros, italian renaissance and middle eastern type build
is that how really how it is
The show is much worse than GOT but at least it's 10x better than Lord of the Shit
>>29517>Marketing and what tabloids say about a film with a diverse cast are two different things.
They all exist in an ecosystem and have de fact become extensions of marketing departments. This includes randos posting their theories and hot takes on youtube or tiktok or twitter. All of social media functions as a marketing project, not just the actual ads they show. They're free to use because you are the product, having your tastes and consumer behavior be "influenced" by the content.>Annihilation was an all woman cast and never marketed as progressive despite the fact that it could've been easily marketed as such.
And that highlights that it's just a marketing tactic. It's not small arthouse movies like Annihilation that studios want to push. They aren't going to invest a lot of marketing into a film that cost about 50 million dollars when they have projects that cost 300+ million dollars that need to make that back. The whole point of the critique of wokeness-as-marketing is precisely that it is cynical and uninterested in actual social progress or indeed proper examples of what it purports to promote, like Annihilation.>>29528>Was there a distinction between in nobility in stone castles and wood castles?
Yeah, it's a lot more expensive to quarry stone and to do masonry than to fell trees and do carpentry. IDK enough about the history to assert this as fact, but I imagine the gradual deforestation of Europe around the period also contributed to a scarcity of timber at times that encouraged building things out of stone. And of course there's the question of permanency and flammability. It was also pretty common for castles to have a permanent stone structure but add wooden extensions in anticipation of a siege or something. Picrelated.
from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarding_(castle)
Another factor to consider is rot, and it was a fairly common tactic for even commoner buildings to have stone walls on the ground and upper walls made of wood, because that kept a lot of the moisture away from the wood.
>Also in the episode they talked about architecture of westeros, italian renaissance and middle eastern type build
Not an architecture guy but they have had a number of influences, and Renaissance Italy is probably the most obvious. IDK how appropriate it is for the setting considering the historical background of the renaissance and the relative intellectual backwardness of Westeros.>>29537
GoT exists on a huge spectrum from good to bad, which actually makes it a handy scale for rating another show. I'd give HotD about a Season 5 on the GoT scale.
>>29540> relative intellectual backwardness of Westeros
Is westeros really backward in INT points?
who's the smartest bloke that ever existed there
The Renaissance was a revival of "lost knowledge" of classical antiquity, particularly Greece and Rome. Westeros is in the world's equivalent of the medieval dark age between the fall of the Roman Empire (Doom of Valyria and the end of the Age of Heroes before that) and the Renaissance or Enlightenment (hasn't happened in the show's universe). The loss of both STEM types of knowledge and magic is a central theme of the series. So it's a little weird to take inspiration from golden age periods IRL where this was overcome. There's plenty of aesthetics to take from the "high middle ages" too, but people tend to think that it's all drab and covered in shit because that's how it's often been portrayed. GRRM wrote the original books inspired by historical events like the Hundred Years' War and the War of the Roses, for comparison on historical context.
>who's the smartest bloke that ever existed there
IDK about raw intellect but Bran the Builder probably had access to the most advanced technology and magic considering all the things he created that nobody can even imagine how to build anymore like The Wall.
WTF OTTO HIGHTOWER IS BACK
they look like long lost brothersPUNISHED OTTO ARC
The first aegon was a conqueror
The second aegon is conquered daily
oh my god, dude just keeps getting slapped, all he wants to do is jack off, drink and pull pranks
So did she know? Or did the gays pull a smart move without either side knowing? Kinda fucked up tho, to pull that stunt without their parents knowing but I get it
If Rahynera wants to really break and reinvent the throne, She should just take two husbands,
Aegon didn't give a fuck?
What usually happens to progressive characters in GoTverse that try to be trailblazers?
What's the most visery's would've done, alicent literally stabbed her first child and he still let her be
I really feel like the show's not trying to make us hate Raheynra or that she can do no wrong, Dunno if they're overcorrecting for Daenyrs or setting up for the same girlboss -> madqueen arc
One of my cousins is being admitted to eye surgery because he got into a fight with his friends
Alicent is waging a national liberation struggle and goes to town with those foreign dragon freaks. She is on your side.>>29537>The show is much worse than GOT but at least it's 10x better than Lord of the Shit
I've rewatched the first few episodes of GoT and it isn't. The directing is much sharper, the acting is much more smitten. GoT looks aged compared to HotD.
>>29653>If Rahynera wants to really break and reinvent the throne, She should just take two husbands,>Aegon didn't give a fuck?
Daemon made the same argument at the beginning of the season, and the two of them look bad anyway for marrying directly after their previous spouses died ("died").>What's the most visery's would've done, alicent literally stabbed her first child and he still let her be
Viserys is a huge pussy lol.>What usually happens to progressive characters in GoTverse that try to be trailblazers?
If they commit hard enough they can succeed. Aegon the conqueror succeeded in (mostly) uniting the continent.
I like the GoT plot, characters and cast better, in HotD all characters are so far only lawful evil, chaotic evil, true neutral or chaotic neutral and the plot seems all over the place to me. HotD looks absolutely fantastic though, it's very well written and the actors are good.
>>29669>HotD looks absolutely fantastic though
The day for night scenes in the most recent episode looked awful but that might be from watching on a non-HDR screen. A lot of the show has been too dark to see for me.
I loved those majestic night sea scenes. Really beautiful.
>the show has been too dark
The inside scenes are indeed dark, however this is how it really looks inside a castle that is only lit with fire. They capture this mood quite realistically and it does look good, in my opinion.
It's official, I'm definitely team Alicent. Also Viserys is so wack, and so weak. Daemon was right, at first I thought Viserys was just a decent guy but that's not it, he's just straight up sticking his head in the sand over and over again.
>>29686>Not wanting the peasantry or the guilds to enter the palaces and put their heads in pikes
That's also pissing me off that the show is unironically trying to put Alicent in a negative light compared to Rhaenyra. It's the most GoT dumb and dumber part of the script that reminds me of the absolute shit that was the last seasons of GoT. They film the Uncle and Niece sex scene in a sensual way which is cringy as a motherfucker instead of what it is, creepy ass incest. Maybe some anons in this thread were right that they are still trying to girl boss Rhaenyra. I love everything with Alicent because in this world her righteous anger IS justified. Rhaenyra is a privileged little shit from a royal line going back a hundred years. While yes Alicent also comes from privilege, she's a native to Westiros and she's part of a noble house yes, but certainly not as privileged.
I was happy what they were doing at the end there till we find out that she did fake Laenors death which gives Rhaenyra the *girl boss" pass.
I mean I would be all for peasant revolution but there is no peasant faction in the series to latch on to. If there was I'd be all horny for watching the whole lot of them Rhaenyra, Alicent, Valeryon all get their "noble" heads in pikes.
I don't want her
Also I'm 100% sure the greens are doing it for themselves, They have shown ZERO good negotiation skills or ruling skills
Whereas Raheynra's has repeatedly solved conflicts on her own wit
Stop criminalizing PoD (Persons of Dragons)
They're a minority refugee>>29666
That rat did fuck all to ring up his brain, I swear he's gonna die in between the friendly fire between Alicent and Rahenyra, goofy ass
Aegon was progressive? In what way>>29671
I'm glad it wasn't me, I tried to configurate my monitor but couldn't with HDR or off, it looked like ass
I don't know how Better Call Saul has good night visuals but not HOTD with so many millions>>29686
She literally tried to stab a kid's eye out for barbarianism
Greenheads are savage defenders>>29689
They said they changed something from the books, Was that the changes? Laenor dies in the books?
Honestly what is killing Visery's
Keeping everything under "control" and being in denial that his houses are in shambles
per a bunch of old martin interviews, it's intentional not to place any working people in the story because none of the characters would have even seen them as being people
He's doing pretty good, he's been dying for like 20+ years at this point
The Hand of the King sits on the throne when acting on behalf of the king.>>29696>Honestly what is killing Visery's
He cuts himself on the throne in episode 1 and it's implied he does it now and then. Cuts get infected and necrotic. There's a little gimmick in-universe where the throne is supposed to be dangerous and that people who are bad at the job get hurt sitting on it. One guy even allegedly died on the throne getting stabbed.>>29695>I don't know how Better Call Saul has good night visuals but not HOTD with so many millions
BCS actually shoots at night with high-sensitivity cameras. This episode of HotD was using the old day-for-night technique where you shoot during the day and then just turn the brightness down and/or adjust the colors basically. The giveaway is the shadows. When it's supposed to be dusk at the funeral you can see sharp, overhead shadows giving away that it was actually mid-day.>>29695>Aegon was progressive? In what way
Uniting the 7 Kingdoms and installing comparatively modern institutions that developed Westeros further. Not a huge leap but under the Targs things are generally an improvement vs the many kingdoms bickering with each other. History tends toward consolidating and centralizing, and Aegon served that process.>>29690>there is no peasant faction in the series to latch on to
Brotherhood Without Banners are Robin Hood-esque.
The Sparrows kind of, with Bernie Sanders Pope.
The episode we watched is actually the first one they shot, maybe that excuses the dark camera
It's fucked up how HOTD got me rooting for this technically creepy relation, But I'm not really
I was at first but not now>>29715>The Hand of the King sits on the throne when acting on behalf of the king.
Oh it is so over Visery's bros….
>History tends toward consolidating and centralizing, and Aegon served that process
So in way we're like Aegon, trying to unite the nations and classes under one RED
communist banner and eventually to none
Why does history tend towards centralizing? That's interesting
it's going to be funny to watch the dunk and egg adaptation because of this.
>>29740>Why does history tend towards centralizing?
Cuz once you have a complicated production-based society you start getting surplus accumulation (eventually as capital accumulation per se but a medieval style world is not there yet), and as the surplus accumulates, the superstructure grows in its power and the geographical scope that it can influence or control.
If you think that Targaryen is the communist faction or even progressive then you're more retarded than I thought. Daemon and Rhaenyra are literally "make Westeros great again" in other words proto fascist. It may have been that Aegon the Conqueror was progressive but that's over 100 years before.
lol, all he does is walk into some shocking scene and says "Gods be good". Honestly he seems like a shit Lord Commander.>>29792>applying terms like fascist or communist to a feudal society
Come on now. The only progressive faction would be the Iron Bank of Bravos as part of an emerging bourgeoisie. Also Rhaenyra and Daemon will be become increasingly assholish later. >>29697
I don't think medieval society was this dehumanizing, but I guess it serves GRRM's grimdark approach. There were plenty of commoners who were knighted after having served splendidly in battle. Problem was they could never afford armor so they fell back into commonhood.
Also, he does include them. Brienne's travel through the Riverlands features the lives of commoners plenty.
I root for the Targs because they're right fucking freaks
Not pretending like Alicunt and her holier than thou shit
Their true monarch material
Weird, Incestuous, Pass down esoteric knowledge
If I didn't hate alicent before that line "Where is duty, sacrifice?" was enough
Such dogmatic, idealistic view for a princess who sits all day, feasting and plotting in the throne rooms, while the actual folk do all that duty and sacrifice
She has suffered, She got her identity and childhood stripped, but that isn't Rhaneyra's fault at all.
Instead of showing that anger to her father she shows it to rhanyera, who just wants to rule her realm justly and fuck her uncle
Alicent is 1000% wrong, you can't convince me
He looks so handsome but damn… even criston cole gets more shit done
All he does is give looks like 0_0
And then :/
>>29810>who just wants to rule her realm justly and fuck her uncle
Hahahaha I'm glad this was an entire joke post because if it wasn't I would've taken it seriously and considered you for a weird white family fucker wasp type.
It is entirely serious, Cope Greenlet
Started watching GoT, Nearly on S3 its so good I have fell behind on House of the Dragon unfortunately which i have also really enjoyed so far, I need to watch episode 6 and 7, also need to recap the past eps.
>>29675>I loved those majestic night sea scenes. Really beautiful.
Beautifully fucking lazy, how can you spend millions on props, actors, etc, but nobody can actually be bothered to shoot the night scenes at night
It starts to fall apart because they run out of book material and start doing their own shit. The final season is universally regarded as so bad that no one likes GoT anymore.
last two episodes pure fire, really enjoying HotD now
pic related, graph of book material they are adapting in GoT
You can really see how it correlates with a decline in quality. Only goes up to season 6, but beyond that they weren't really adapting anything anyway.
>>29810>If I didn't hate alicent before that line "Where is duty, sacrifice?"
Anarchist detected, of course you prefer smug wreckers >isn't Rhaneyra's fault at all.
Viserys keeps making stupid decisions which favour this smug skank at least based on some mythical prophecy about her offspring supposedly being chosen to save Westeros (wrong, more than others Starks turned out being those "chosen" ones, not Targayens), Rhaenyra on the other hand is entirely driven by arrogance, emotions and complete disregard for others, almost the same goes for Daemon. Daemon is a good fighter though, Rhaenyra the "chosen" wannabe ruler can't get anything done on her own, she's been entirely reliant on Viserys & Daemon so far
I don't care how it was done, it came out great. Good for them if they achieved it with being lazy, others might put more effort in only to yield an average result.>>29858
I said i liked GoT characters better, not that i think that the HotD characters are shit. I think HotD isn't worse than GoT at all, it's just as entertaining and well written, including the characters, however i just do not like the characters as much as i liked a lot of the GoT characters. It's a show about Targayens after all, so it must be different. I didn't like any of the Targayen characters in GoT either.
Greenlet detected, Opinion ejected
The Dragons ruled the seven kingdoms for a 100 years
They will rule the next hundred!HOUSE TARGAREYEN IS AN-COM GANG
FUCK CRISTON COLE, THAT VILE UNCOUTH DEMON
FUCK DISCOUNT DRACO MALFOY
AND FUCK OLD TOWN!
I need to know more about jaeherys, he looks just like viserys but knew to dip
How did he die
I'm with you Green brother. Honestly im actually team Aemond because that kid is the scariest and baddest motherfucker of all of them. He's quiet and dangerous and you know he's constantly having the gears in his mind constantly working. Green Targs are the revolutionary socialists here, the Blacks are libertarian reactionaries that would beggar the realm into pure degenerated chaos. Even the ancom anon who responded to you called them ancom so you know the Targs are libertarian brainrot.
Haven't caught up so I'm putting S3 Of GOT on pause for now, I'm on ep 3 I'll recap ep 1 and 2 for when I get back to ep 3, first 2 eps we're practically introductions back into season 3 and a bit of set up.
Ima restart HotD, compare it to what I have seen so far of GoT, also keep seeing lots of stuff on the new eps they look really good and intriguing.
Paddy Considine killed it as Viserys, especially in this episode, hot damn.
Viserys is my king
He was bad at ruiling but he had good intentions unlike the power hungry greens who will surely ruin the kingdom
ah shit mean to do red and black text last night
heck, i think their house colours are infact red and black
HOUSE TARGAREYEN IS AN-COM GANG
Harwin's kids literally look like honorable disney princes, while the green sons are ugly af and rapists
You could just pull a richie rich and have aemond acting according and train luke until he becomes of age
It's not that hard
I can literally see Viserys load up his memory banks every time someone asks him anything
WHAT DISEASE LITERALLY DESTROYS HALF YOUR FACE?
do they have leprosy in westoros, he doesn't seem to have dragonscale
it's so creepy and sad, seeing him look just like the crab feeder
Do you think by the end of the show they'll portray how the iron throne became smaller?
It's big now with extra swords but I reckon there must be some in-universe explination for how it becomes smaller, Maybe after the dance of the dragons and the hall gets destroyed?
Or after the passing
what a fucking insane scene, he's so little and almost dead and still, ready to personally cut
and daemon just already on it, amazing
Who are the silent sisters, are they witches or part of that new religion cult
I heard they were in GoT S1
I gotta read up on how exactly fedualism was overthrown
Cause logically speak this just doesn't make any sense, dynasties, kings,
Those well fit men lifting a dude up in the chair just to help him eat,
It's like that story of elephants imprisoned with shackles, but even after outgrowing them, their mind still only knows those shackles
The soft power on the common folk remains,
How the people overthrew, and unshackled them of this, is fascinating
How capitalism reshackled them slowly again, It must be interesting
If I was jace or luke, I would suck up so much to the king
He is like their meatshield, Nothing wrong could come from being his favourite
I don't know the name of raheyrna's sister but she has the happiest person in that family
Literally just chilling and spewing out prophecies that I don't even think she knows
They should ask her about Aegon's dream
Viserys fucked it all up again, my god
Where was that scene I saw of him giving a speech out in the castle to an army
That rahneyra pussy must be magical
Can swords do that in real life? It was uber smooth, I imagine it's a special quality of the fictional material
>>30086>I don't know the name of raheyrna's sister but she has the happiest person in that family
Helaena or however it's spelt.>>30090>Can swords do that in real life?
The cutting through a head part yeah that's possible, especially if you attack someone who's standing perfectly still and wind up a hard swing. You can get some blades very very sharp, too. They did overdo it a bit with how clean of a cut it was, but pretty sure that Daemon used the sword Dark Sister, which is Valyrian steel and holds an extremely keen edge. It's also a particularly light/thin sword so it arguably would pass through flesh easier.
They need to show us the dragons fucking honestly
I'm still confused on when and how they're doing it, if they belong to riders
Why is it called dark sister? really a thin blade would pass through easier? I would've thought there would be bones and stuff, like the skull
It's crazy how much daemon gets away with, They've only shown the castle, but I wonder if they will lie to the driftwood people about how the prince died
How do you think racehorses end up reproducing, it's the same thing
>>30102>Why is it called dark sister?
IDK, it was used by Aegon the Conqueror's sister maybe that's why.>really a thin blade would pass through easier?
Yeah, that's how a wedge works. The thinner the less material has to move.>I would've thought there would be bones and stuff, like the skull
There is, although cutting at the mouth means you have the least bone to cut through if you're cutting through someone's head. It's the jaw and the neck bones mostly.>but I wonder if they will lie to the driftwood people about how the prince died
Princess Rhaenys was there. Pronouncing someone guilty of treason is a valid reason to execute them. The Mad King Aerys (before GoT) killed a shitload of people before enough was enough.>>30107
I think GRRM dragons are self fertile or some weird shit like that though.
have you guys seen the "team green" communist memes on Twitter? pretty funny
no fucking way, post them
that's some crazy cope
the greens are religiods and dynasty fucks just like the targs
>>30110> The thinner the less material has to move
I would've thought more force will help it move faster
>I think GRRM dragons are self fertile
No way, autofertile dragoooons
I would assume that at least you'd need to be restrained on a scaffold for it to be able to go through your jaw, this scene broke the immersion for me because it was shot like some 80s B-movie horror. No need other than for shock value.
Plus, plot-wise it would have been cooler to have Viserys slashing him, give the old man a final badass moment before he croaks.
Other than that I liked the episode, although it felt transitional. >>30145
They are not religious freaks, they are trying to find something to connect to their subjects, which is the faith of the people of Westeros, to find a counternarrative to the Targarayans, who are incestuous foreign invaders.
>>30146>I would've thought more force will help it move faster
If you are cutting through something efficiently you want to require the least amount of force. You are essentially pushing the matter away on either side of the blade, an the less distance you have to push the less force is required. The most questionable part here is cutting through the bone, which usually requires chopping rather than slicing, which is why meat cleavers are so heavy. But they cut through the part of the head with the least bone so it's not as bad as it could have been. Sometimes you see shit where a character gets the top of their head cut off which is extremely silly.>>30155>I would assume that at least you'd need to be restrained on a scaffold for it to be able to go through your jaw
Eh not really. People can get arms lopped clean off with swords.>this scene broke the immersion for me because it was shot like some 80s B-movie horror
Yeah that was goofy. Probably did it that way to make it easier on the VFX team.>plot-wise it would have been cooler to have Viserys slashing him
Nah, I think Daemon backing him up works better for the scene. Same as when he helped him to the throne. In spite of everything else, here is one moment when they act like a family.
>They are not religious freaks, they are trying to find something to connect to their subjects, which is the faith of the people of Westeros
I think Olivia Cooke (Alicent) said that it's cope to try to redeem the outburst where she demanded to have a child mutilated and tried to stab Rhaenyra. I do like that this is criticizing "muh honor" from a slightly different angle than how it was with the Starks in GoT.
okay greenoid, whatever you say
remind me again who did alicent marry her son and daughter to again?
they are freaks, but at least they have an identity, unlike the hightowers "saints" trying to have it all
>>30157>Nah, I think Daemon backing him up works better for the scene
True, it was so hot
That was a one last bro-out
>>30157>Eh not really. People can get arms lopped clean off with swords.
European medieval swords were not made for cutting, but for breaking bones and splitting chainmails (because you don't need cutting if everyone is in armor anyway). I guess we are supposed to believe that Dark Sister is this super special sword but I don't really buy it. Still, I believe it would've been more realistic if he was wielding a scimitar or a sabre, they specifically made for cutting through flesh.>Probably did it that way to make it easier on the VFX team.
I absolutely like the show but they need to get more professional. Episode 7 was great but ruined by catastrophic night shots. Now we get this 80s John Carpenter death scene. >>30159>they are freaks, but at least they have an identity, unlike the hightowers "saints" trying to have it all
Bro, the Hightowers absolutely do have an identity, they protect the Citadel, and are one of the proudest and oldest houses in the realm. They are as ur-Westerosi as you can get.As the show goes on you'll also realize who the common people support, just wait for it.
As regarding your spoilered comments, GRRM rarely ever focuses on the "common people" unless you think there is some analog that we don't know about. The "small folk" aka the peasants, shopkeepers, guild smiths and shit are all what's the "common people" and we rarely see their perspective let alone a faction of theirs. The Brotherhood Without Banners are not it either. They're a religious mercenary group and the medieval times especially was no stranger to merc bands without "a banner", this doesn't make them the political representatives of the common folk.
Daemon turned out to be such a bro.
i swear it's the same person meming>>30175
we all thought he was gonna end up killing viserys…
which commoner has got the most dialogue in the book/show?
looks like it, I think two of those examples are from one account, other memes I've seen just have been twitter compilations on tiktok just reused from Twitter lmao.
GoT had a couple communist factions to sympathize with:
-The Wildlings: not ML, rather an-com, definitely a real communist faction anyway
-The Norf (Starks): aligned with the wildlings, political ethics rather left leaning as well though still monarchist with hereditary transfer of leadership
-The Night's Watch: does not give a shit about class and heritage at all, in fact it commands that "noble" members must abandon all privileges and private property they were used to and they are not allowed to own land, leaders get elected based on merit. It's pretty much a socialist military order, sort of like early christian military orders, but more socialist
-The Brotherhood Without Banners: socialist/communist guerilla group dedicated to protecting the smallfolk from reactionary forces (Lannister), aligned with the Starks
-there's probably more i forgot about
HotD is kinda lacking in that regard, so far only Alicent, Aemond and Otto are the closest to being lefty due to their commitment to duty and justice. There was a brief scene where Otto was talking about taxes, so the Hightowers actually do care about economics, trade, science and diplomacy, while the deranged black Targayens only care about power struggle so they can keep their status and privileges, which is reactionary as fuck.
literally prisoner-operated gulags>BWB
I still don't know what monbol is
no no i understood that, but like how does it work
a royal bloodline tries to unite the realm and break classes under feudalism? it's a very confusing meme ideology
>>30191>There was a brief scene where Otto was talking about taxes<so the Hightowers actually do care about economics, trade, science and diplomacy
Leftism is when you do fedual taxes and the more taxes you do the more leftist you are
Better an anarchist than a SOCDEM
>while the deranged black Targayens only care about power struggle
Saying this while literally all the hightowers have done is use all the tax payer money to build giant stars and remove targareyn history off king's landing
And literally in the EP9 preview they've launched a power struggle to steal the throne, If there was a god, he would squash the greens like the pests they're bismillah
I genuinely feel so much hatred towards all of alicent's children, they're not targareyns, bastard fake wig wearing, the strong children are more targs than them
Why couldn't Visery's dick have fallen off first 😣
Aegon III should take the throne after Rahneyra
Also how tf do they keep the lore consistent and remembered
there's so many threads, and plots
Interbreeding was literally a huge part of it. A thousand years of medieval feudalism really does a number on the gene pool. Part of the reason for the Russian Revolution was the lack of an heir.
The other side to this though is, the nobility were the best trained, best fed, best equipped, for their whole lives.
Imagine you are a peasant, spend your days farming or whatever, perhaps even smithing to give you a big giant arm. Maybe you are even a good fist fighter down the local.
Anyway you come up against a guy who has never missed a meal in his life, trained every day with a sword and the best sword teacher around, since they were able to hold one, in the finest armour in the land, and also they are on a horse, and also have paid up goons.
You're fucked. You are not going to survive that fight, and if you do, you're getting hung anyway
You mean in
breeding would be the opposite and might have fixed the problem.
Inbreeding = breeding within a group
interbreeding = breeding between different groups
soz, inbred mutants is what I meant
Yeah the prefixes don't need to be so similar. English a fuck.
i'm confused on how inbreeding caused them to have no heir
did they not make enough children or they all die because of medical problems?
this also gets me really confused on the first men, how did they survive all the inbreeding problem and expand and create different gene pools>>30270
how did the untrained peasants win in the end? either their forces were too many or the nobles got lazy and stopped training
>>30290>i'm confused on how inbreeding caused them to have no heir
The more you inbreed the less likely a pregnancy makes it to term, less likely the baby survives, etc. Inbreeding doesn't just give you le habsburg jaw. It fucks up important biological processes down to the cellular level. If it's bad enough your shit just doesn't work at all.
>this also gets me really confused on the first men, how did they survive all the inbreeding problem and expand and create different gene pools
The First Men were a whole population of people not just a couple noble houses. You need something like 800 people minimum to avoid genetic issues down the line. They probably had a lot more than that.
>>30293>You need something like 800 people minimum to avoid genetic issues down the line. They probably had a lot more than that.
This. Tribes had laws against inbreeding and this lasted for thousands of years such as the aborigines or the Native Americans. Inbreeding laws were only ever lifted when the population of a tribe reached dangerously low levels which only happened because of possibly lack of game or war or bad weather or all three.
>>30290>I always have really vivid dreams when I sleep bad.
in the case of Russia, the heir was born with heamophilia and this is how Rasputin entered the scene, because the Tsarina got into mystic and spiritual healing to try and cure her son. Rasputin came to have a big influence on the royals but was not trusted by the Russian people who were mostly orthodox, which further weakened the prestige of the crown. he was accussed of heresy and rape and so on, and he probably was a sex pest and possibly fucked the tsarina.
Anyway, haemophilia is hereditary and it was passed into several other european royal families like the spanish and prussian.
It wasn't a main reason why the monarchy failed, but it was certainly a contributing factor. Given the institutionalised nature of providing a healthy heir, this probably also put strain on the marriage of the Tsar, added to his stress levels, generally happiness and mood etc.
they were monkeys long before, and we interbred with neanderthals and stuff later on, there was enough of us before there was even humans. >>30290
I think a part of it was the development of better weaponry that was more easily accessible to larger amounts of people. I believe the black death is supposed to be a big factor also in the weakening of feudalism in Europe.
But ultimately, it was the allegiance of the working class, peasantry and merchant class which ultimately destroyed feudalism, as the merchant class become powerful enough to armed and train the peasants against the royals to their own bourgeoise ends>>30311
is it as high as 800? i've seen a bunch of shit saying the optimum primitive human society numbers was like 150, but i suppose people did trade women and stuff back then which probably loosened things up and also was a reason women would become property.
With the 800 number though, and speaking about royalty, wonder how many royalty there actually were in europe at the time? and, for a Tsar of one of the great empires, not just any Royalty, but suitable royalty of your own station, a match that is beneficial for the nation and the royals family, and one that you have no grudge with which stops such a thing.
In fact come to think of it there is a pretty nice through line from primitive tribes trading women, to feudal royalty trading off their daughters,
>>30312>is it as high as 800? i've seen a bunch of shit saying the optimum primitive human society numbers was like 150
So first of all, the necessary minimum to avoid inbreeding varies depending on how much diversity there is in the population. That's a rough and barely remembered estimate. IIRC it assumes an ideal population and a more realistic one would require something like 1200 people.
Second of all it's been very common across the globe for cultures to marry outside of their own community, probably because the ones that did this avoided inbreeding better and had healthier gene pools favored by natural selection. You just need a large enough and diverse enough population in the region so that you can have people (usually women) moving between communities. This also has major sociopolitical drivers because when you have members of your group marrying into members of another group it raises the stakes of any conflicts between you and incentivizes cooperation.
What I was trying to get at was, its like, the more royal you are, the higher up the chain, the less people there are for you to marry, and so, the more inbred you become, and the longer the various lines endure, the effect multiplies.
Its like biologically built in contradictions in feudalism.
Its… kinda beautiful. Sort of thing that makes you wonder about intelligent design and stuff
Ah well another point about that is that earlier feudalism tended to be more distributed and over time it got more centralized. So you had a bunch of kings in an area that today we'd consider 1 country but over time they consolidated. The more feudalism develops and more powerful a monarchy becomes, the more inbred it gets.
In 129 AC, after the start of the Dance of the Dragons, Prince Jacaerys Velaryon decided that his mother's faction needed more dragonriders. Many men attempted to claim a dragon of their own; Lord Gormon Massey attempted to approach Vermithor, who burned him to death. Eventually, Vermithor bent his neck to a blacksmith’s bastard called Hugh Hammer.
THERE ARE NON TARGARYEN, VALERYIAN RIDERS???!????
The strong died I swear to god, waht a fucking creep, snitch ass creep
someone tell me how to calibrate my monitor and hwo to watch HOTD properly, shit's too dark
The HDR version is barely visible with HDR mode on, whereas the non basic versions are more lit
everything she says is prophetic. she's got dem hodor powers
I don't know why are you so obsessed with a political analysis of the show. The point of GoT is the showcase the personal world of the nobility and focus on the political intrique which is at the same time familial intrique because feudalism. It's basically a soap opera with a medieval coat of paint. Like any other show about the everyday life of rich people, it can't provide a good basis for Marxist analysis because it's hard to engage in social critique while pretending that the working majority doesn't exist.
Yes, the world building is "realist", meaning that instead of medieval sagas and folk tales it mostly draws inspiration from actual pre-modern history, but taken as whole it's a mess from a historical materialist perspective. Every building block taken from real history is ripped from its actual context and makes no sense on its own. You have a medieval Italian merchant city-state next to ancient Greek slaveholding city-states. There are nomadic tribes invading from the East, but social impact of the destruction they cause is never truly shown, they are just kind of there. The continent which is analogous to medieval Europe is ruled by the descendants of an expansive empire that collapsed under it's own weight, similar to how in reality the largest state in Europe identified itself as the successor of the Roman Empire and ecclestial order ruling over most of Europe was based in Rome itself. There is a big and long-standing empire to the East which is constantly engaged in warfare against nomadic tribes. The setting even has a misterious abandoned city in in the middle of the jungle (Angkor Wat) All of this doesn't form a coherent whole. I get the rationale behind the fake realism, people identify with real history a lot more easily because nobody reads Beowulf today but everyone is forced to learn the general history of the world thanks to compulsory education. Still it isn't any closer to material reality besides the very surface-level critique of "chivalry is fake".
In most fantasy the role of religion is greatly diminished while in reality the church was extremely important for the ideological superstructure of European feudalism. Anything similar to a real-life church gets like one season in GoT, so for most of its duration this also applies to the show as well. Also similar to most fantasy, the supernatural elements and the structure of the narrative are based on a Manichean evil arising out of nowhere in the place of an all-encompassing ecclestial order based on eschatological narratives, the former of which is boring as hell, just like in any other fantasy. The only difference is that this is avoided for some time with a soap opera story structure in its place, but when the need arises to somehow end the show, the introduction of the approaching forces of evil comes off as even more forced. Some say that the shitty ending is the fault of the showrunners, which is definitely true to an extent, but nonetheless it should be taken as a rule that all story structures geared towards never-ending serialization can't be given a proper ending. This was the basis of How I Met Your Mother, and look at how that ended. There is a reason why GRRM refuses to write the last goddamn book in the series.
If you like soap with some extra violence and sex than that's fine, go ahead and watch HotD. If you want to experience how medieval people felt and thought, then consume fantasy that's actually based on medieval folklore, the "media" that people consumed back then. Arguably most fantasy is pure simulacra, people copying the particular way in which Tolkien attempted to assemble medieval folklore into a coherent whole by taking elements from here and there and setting all of it up against a Manichean evil that destroys nature and the natural order of things. So instead go straight for medieval folklore. Also read religious texts because very few fantasies do justice to Christianity and the church. Also read religious texts, mythology and folklore which isn't from medieval Europe, because only being interested a small section of the world is boring. And if you are really interested in history and how societies function, then watch some actual historical drama for fuck's sake. It might not represent reality well, but at very least it attempts to, which is a lot more than what we can say about fantasy.
I said they talked about economics and diplomacy and you get triggered by the word taxes, just like every neoliberal ancap lolbert. Impressive. Very nice.
Get the ancap flag already, m8. There is absolutely nothing communist about anarchists and never was, it's peak liberalism, hence anarchists of all sorts always choose to ally with the blackest reaction, be it the black Targayens or the USA. "Anarcho-communism" is an oxymoron with emphasis on moron
I'm ML by the way, not Socdem. But indeed i do prefer even the most lukewarm Social democrat over whatever anarchist. Socdems didn't wreck the DDR, anarshits did.
It was literally like >it's a show about dragons so we need to include some dragon
This dumb scene ruined the episode for me. I am sure braindead fans will soyface over it.>>30325
Heh, he is gonna be around for some time.
t. butthurt Rings of Dung fan
The "soap opera" argument is literally how all the paid Amazon shills talk. >If you want to experience how medieval people felt and thought, then consume fantasy that's actually based on medieval folklore, the "media" that people consumed back then
If you wanna get all high and mighty about this shit, don't consume popculture in the first place. Also, most people consumed nothing of this, because they couldn't fucking read. Medieval texts were written mostly by clerics. I have nothing to say to the rest of your post because I would sit here for hours, especially your pathetic attempt to shoehorn Marxist terms into your pathetic "analysis".
Give us some of your recommendations for television and literature (fiction and non-fiction) fam.>>30347>>30320
Figures that was added by the TV writers, beyond retarded doing a stare down. Was Alicent hearing the Aegon story on Visery's deathbad added by them as well? That's the other thing that stands out as a contradiction in her character/logic in general. It makes her look dumb and naive. Like she's been scheming for 20 years about this and now she's getting emotional and is unsure of herself? Another girlboss moment.
"The Queen Who Never Was" just killed a bunch of innocent smallfolk but YAS QUEEN!
not even a little surprised
>>30354>Was Alicent hearing the Aegon story on Visery's deathbad added by them as well?
Every part of the Prince That Was Promised prophecy was added and not present in Fire and Blood. The special dagger was never suggested to be special in the books. It's just a Valyrian steel dagger that gets involved in the aGoT plot. It's not mentioned in Fire and Blood at all AFAIK. GRRM was involved with developing the show so IDK if he told them to make that a focal point of the plot or if it's their own ridiculous OC, but Aegon the Conqueror taking over Westeros because he
was the one who prophesized "the song of ice and fire" is an original addition by the show.>Like she's been scheming for 20 years about this and now she's getting emotional and is unsure of herself?
In the book (which is biased in her favor btw since it's written by Maesters who call Rhaenyra a fat ugly slut) she's characterized as being motivated to get her son on the throne. All this stuff is just texture the show added to make her more "believable" or "relatable" except they're giving the audience whiplash with changing attitudes.
But they still could have had that scene but infinitely less dumb, if Rhaenys had tried to get at the coronation stage but had been driven off by crossbowmen or something, or if she immediately had to flee on the dragon. this was just absolute lazy shlock.>>30356
Yeah I noticed that too, I guess we need to know how 'epic' this series is.
Also how did the Dragon break through anyway? Isn't this supposed to be a holding area specifically for Dragons? Bravo Nolan.
>>30356>>30360>Yeah I noticed that too, I guess we need to know how 'epic' this series is.
That's actually the least stupid part of the scene because nobles do not think of the smallfolk as people and it sets up events that will happen later with the smallfolk
>Also how did the Dragon break through anyway? Isn't this supposed to be a holding area specifically for Dragons? Bravo Nolan.
I don't think it's supposed to imprison fully grown dragons, just the babies while they are trained. For the adults I think it's more just a parking garage.
Was Aegon dressing kids up like a child version of himself to fuck them? What’s he do in the books?
ayo what the fuck? i think filing their teeth is barbaric enough,
can you imagine that? getting your teeth filed? file filfe file file
It's soap, deal with it. You have given me 0 (zero) counterarguments to my well-founded observation.
>If you wanna get all high and mighty about this shit
I'm not being high and mighty, I don't really care what kind of media people consume if they don't forget to touch grass from time to time and maybe read some theory too.
>Also, most people consumed nothing of this, because they couldn't fucking read. Medieval texts were written mostly by clerics.
I mentioned many kinds of art forms, but looking at folklore in particular, their very definition is that they are tales exchanged by common people. Examining the ideology of the ruling class also tells you a lot about a certain era.>>30354
I don't know, watch HotD I guess? Recently I only play video games and listen to music in my free time. Was my wall of text that discouraging to a show watcher? Actually, there is an exception. I started watching the Chinese Drama "Three Kingdoms" recently. It's okay I guess. A bit boring but I can't articulate any real problem with the show. Also historical drama can be truly bad as a basis for Marxist analysis. I watched some episodes from a show about Sissi, the wife of Franz Joseph. It was amazing how a story about the partner of the ruler of one of the biggest, most diverse and just plain interesting empires within Europe can have so little to do with politics. It was basically on the level of the propaganda that appears in the British press about their precious queen/king. "Does the prince/king like me? UwU" for the interity of the show. Which is understandable because the show was Austrian and Austrians have no basis for their national identity other than worshipping the Habsburgs.
>>30392>It's soap, deal with it. You have given me 0 (zero) counterarguments to my well-founded observation.
Can you give an example of a TV show that isn't "soap" then? Because the way I see it most shows people hold dear, from the Sopranos to Rome to Breaking Bad have elements of "soap" in to a level very similar to HotD. Your observation wasn't well-founded, so no well-founded counter-arguments were necessitated. You basically just said that the way the show is written is not in line with how medieval historiography was conducted, well no shit. If I want to watch the Gesta Francorum
(authored likely by a common soldier no less) being put into a stageplay I rather watch that but I am not gonna watch that shitty Tolkien show or HotD.
Secondly, you do realize the first season is a set up for the war? You still gonna be calling it a soap opera when there is gonna be battles and stuff? It's a slow burning show (despite all the complaints about the "time jumps") that takes its time to move the pieces into place, something rather rare these days.>I don't really care what kind of media people consume if they don't forget to touch grass from time to time and maybe read some theory too.
I literally studied medieval history my dude, don't you dare to tell me to read about it. This board is called /hobby/ if you haven't noticed, not /edu/. >their very definition is that they are tales exchanged by common people. Examining the ideology of the ruling class also tells you a lot about a certain era.
I think HotD makes it pretty clear from the beginning that this is a show from the POV of the feudal ruling class. That doesn't mean I can not enjoy it.
>>30428>Can you give an example of a TV show that isn't "soap" then? Because the way I see it most shows people hold dear, from the >Sopranos
Have never seen it.>to Rome
Same>to Breaking Bad
Breaking Bad was a self-cointained story about the common trope of a middle class nobody facing an existential crisis and then going on a self-destructive rampage which is somehow portrayed simpathetically and I could talk about Jesse or whatever else element of the show but I won't. The point is that it's well written. Meanwhile in GoT has no overarching narrative other than the ice skellies invading Westeros. We realize after the end of Season 1 that morals alone don't help in a world where the strongest rule. Ok, then what happens next? Will it be the war of all against all for all the remaining seasons, or will any kind of morality prevail other than personal vendetta? Well, it turned out to be the former. So really nothing new happens after Ned Stark is executed. Characters are built up, given different storylines, they start going in this or that direction and at some point they are killed. GRRM is like "U mad?? I killed your hero XDDDDDD" then makes up another character in the place of him/her so that there will be people to root for/hate and observe as they are brutally murdered. Their views/personality might have some meaning on their own, but since there is no overarching narrative, no point to anything, I doesn't form a consistent whole. Yet the books/show can always go on because you can cut off storylines by killing off people.
>Secondly, you do realize the first season is a set up for the war?
Ok, it's a soap opera with more violence.
>I think HotD makes it pretty clear from the beginning that this is a show from the POV of the feudal ruling class. That doesn't mean I can not enjoy it.
I never told you that you shouldn't or can't. You are awfully defensive about this.
really strong opinions for someone who doen't even watch tv or read books.
I spoiled myself on future of HOTD by checking out the royal history of the Kings of Westeros from Aegon to Tommen and well I wasn't surprised at how it turns out
>>30434>Their views/personality might have some meaning on their own, but since there is no overarching narrative, no point to anything, I doesn't form a consistent whole
I kind of agree with your assessment of GRRM and I'd argue that GRRM just wanted to write a nihilistic version of Whig history, not much surprise there. Real history never worked out that way even when you read about Emperors and Royalty, you'll most commonly find out that in the real world in history, classes were always struggling for supremacy whether that be the aristocracy or the nobility or barons or slaves or peasants or merchants etc etc. You'll always find emperors and and kings trying to find the favor of certain classes. One of the biggest failures of GRRM is despite his "realism" of feudal politics, it lacks all the realism of the constant class struggles.
>>30438The way Rhaenyra dies is fucking disgusting. Also, not really a spoiler, was already spoilered in GoT by Joffrey when he takes her through the crypt in the Sept of Baelor.>>30434>The point is that it's well written.
"It's a soap opera with extra drugs. If you like soap operas, fine, but don't cope about it.">Meanwhile in GoT has no overarching narrative other than the ice skellies invading Westeros.
This is not a thread about GoT but about HotD. I am sure most users here starkly object to the direction they took the show towards after season 4. Also, what fucking irony
that you praised Tolkien here who has the biggest fucking cliche dark lord impending doom type of theme out of all fantasy, and yet you complain about The Others in ASOIAF. >Ok, then what happens next? Will it be the war of all against all for all the remaining seasons, or will any kind of morality prevail other than personal vendetta?
Did you even watch it beyond the first episode?>Characters are built up, given different storylines, they start going in this or that direction and at some point they are killed.
Unlike many shows these days that kill characters off for shock value the GoT deaths were actually properly built up and people were only shocked because they didn't pick up on the clues. They weren't random and not staged for shock value. There are multiple talks by GRRM explaining as to why he exactly had to remove the Starks as players on the chessboard and none of the reasons he gives is like "I wanted to shock my readers lol".
I am saying this of course for the first four seasons, I can't vouch for anything D&D made up later nor for what Martin writes in his later books. >but since there is no overarching narrative, no point to anything
Again, you didn't watch or read it. There are like three conflicting prophecies and the threat of The Others. Again back to Tolkien: I don't dislike Tolkien but reviving Gandalf could as well be seen as a cheap cop-out because he needed him so his death was fake for shock value. Now what? And in ASOIAF it never feels like they are killing people to push out more books (GRRM is notoriously terrible within that regard anyway), but at this point I don't even know what you are trying to argue. You jump from criticism of HotD, GoT, ASOIAF and a fucking Marxist critique of feudal society. I am starting to think you are a massive faggot.>I never told you that you shouldn't or can't. You are awfully defensive about this.
I have criticisms of the show but you are incredibly insufferable.
You never addressed why you copy-paste rhetoric from the Amazon bots.
>>30439>One of the biggest failures of GRRM is despite his "realism" of feudal politics, it lacks all the realism of the constant class struggles.
Check out the speech of Septon Meribald in A Feast for Crows. https://genius.com/George-r-r-martin-a-feast-for-crows-brienne-v-broken-men-speech-annotated
Also, one more thing, I don't think GRRM ever said that his books are some sort of realism. It's just more modern fantasy where the hero isn't a shining knight and the villian isn't a dark lord. I don't know what the fuck this criticism is, I just enjoy his stories, there is other stuff I go for when I want historical realism.
Remember that GRRM is a liberal and an American. >you'll most commonly find out that in the real world in history, classes were always struggling for supremacy whether that be the aristocracy or the nobility or barons or slaves or peasants or merchants etc etc.
There was feudal infighting, right? If you talk about English history in particular (to which you alluded to) it was the nobles who rebelled against the centralized power of the king in London constantly way up till the end of the English Civil War.
I don't understand why you guys constantly want this class struggle jerkfest in every piece of media you consume. Shakespeare had zero class struggle within his works unless you do some mental gymnastics (which I have seen some Marxists do), so he should be discarded now?
>>30442>There was feudal infighting, right?
Because noble infighting wasn't ever just noble infighting. It seems the one who's reaching and doing reductionism here is you my guy.
>I don't understand why you guys constantly want this class struggle jerkfest
Projection. Like I said, even the most liberal historian could not ignore the many facets of both ancient and feudal societies. The nobles in ASOIAF are very one dimensional and this is a very fair critique for a series of this ilk. Even The Hobbit had a more 3 dimensional fantasy world. GRRM is basically grimdark fantasy for the sake of it, again it's a fair criticism. It's fair to call out fantasy schlock when it's earned. I remember the writer of V for Vendetta, I forget his name where he talked about the one dimensional nature of marvel comics and how in order to give their superheroes "depth" they'd had maybe one character flaw making them 2 dimensional to make it seem as if those characters are "deeper" than they really are. This is the same for the ASOIAF series which is a fair criticism of GRRM; the guy is better than his peers because he adds one more dimensional to what would otherwise be a one dimensional fantasy story.
>>30443>Because noble infighting wasn't ever just noble infighting.
On the surface, it was. I am sure you can interpret all kinds of historical materialist narratives into various feudal squabbles but do you really want this on a mainstream TV show? It's funny, because you come over as the type who would dismiss any current capitalist infighting as "just capitalism" without inserting any class analysis to it. Just my impression. I am not saying there weren't class struggles fought out in the open in feudalism, but sometimes a feud is just a feud. Dare tell me, where is the class aspect in the Spanish War of Succession or the Seven Years War, to give two examples? >The nobles in ASOIAF are very one dimensional and this is a very fair critique for a series of this ilk.
Have you actually watched it? I am not gonna ask again. Because from my impression, the noble protagonists of GoT and HotD seem to be rather complex characters coming in all different shades, and you can realize that even the "good" characters are just ruling class assholes who will stomp on the people, unless you are a braindead fan, they leave enough crumbs for that. >Even The Hobbit had a more 3 dimensional fantasy world.
The nobles in Tolkien are literally le Aryan virtuous great men, you gotta be fucking kidding me.>GRRM is basically grimdark fantasy for the sake of it
ITT I have criticized the over-the-top grimdarkness of his universe before, because it dehumanizes people who lived, served, acted and ruled in feudalism as if they were some kind of hellworld, but you fail to substantiate any or your claims. >I remember the writer of V for Vendetta, I forget his name where he talked about the one dimensional nature of marvel comics and how in order to give their superheroes "depth" they'd had maybe one character flaw making them 2 dimensional to make it seem as if those characters are "deeper" than they really are.
V for Vendetta is DC, Alan Moore is not affiliated with Marvel. Anyway, nice attempt to divert the topic for the sixth time now.>This is the same for the ASOIAF series which is a fair criticism of GRRM; the guy is better than his peers because he adds one more dimensional to what would otherwise be a one dimensional fantasy story.
There are fantasy authors who easily rival GRRM but again, it's not fair criticism, because you don't make an argument, you just claim things. For most of the time, and I can't believe I am defending the fatso here like this (literally was one of the original "Is Winter Coming?" posters years ago), he manages to create a good balance between "generic" fantasy elements and "grimdark" greyness.
>>30444>There are fantasy authors who easily rival GRRM
can you name some, NTA but I'm interested if anything can mog GoT
This can't be the peak
They never show the targareyns caring for the faith of the seven do they?
They just put up with it, even after all these generations later
Fun fact: The Hightowers actually are not Andals but from the blood of the first men, and are said to have existed for thousands of years. Yet they were the first to accept the Faith of the Seven, that's why they have a special relationship there. I don't know what the religion in Valyria was, or I forgot, but Targs are not really into it.
Targs used to follow the valyrian religion but after the conquest Aegon converted because it would make it easier, but they always were distant from the religious institution,because their practice of incest, which is illegal by the faith, the other one was having multiple wives but the church won out in that end.
IT FUCKING LEAKED
THE REALM IS IN CHAOS.
THE EP LEAKED
THE LEAK IS REALLLLLLLL
Of course the hightowers are part of the cruel first men who hurt nature and are responsible for the long winter
Greens can't do anything right>>30461
Would be interesting to find out more about valyria, I feel they might have even had queens unlike westeroes which is backwards minded because of the faith of the seven
I think that for the most part the Starks are
First Men. IDK how much they married people outside Da Norf. Catelyn Tully is one case of a Southern wife and they make a point of how out of place she is. Wildlings would be 100% First Men bloodlines unless some other group also emigrated before The Wall went up.
pretty good, i enjoyed it. i lol'd when daemon starting choking rhaenyra for talking about ASOIAF, that's exactly how i feel when the writers make me think of the end of GOT. time me me to listen to the audiobook.
>>30484>Catelyn Tully is one case of a Southern wife
Does that explain why she's such a fucking bitch
At least she's better than her sister lol.
where did you see the leaked episode
qbittorrent search function: "dragon s01e10"
It was Jaherys's dragon, I forgor their name
Speaking of him
I wish they showed more of the stuff during this period
>>30501>Although I hate how they keep bringing up the "song of ice and fire" prophecy, like why would you want to tie this series more to the disaster that was second half of GoT.
From what I understand, none of this current Prince That Was Promised / Song of Ice and Fire plot is in the book Fire and Blood and is an addition by the show. I don't think any of GRRM's books even say "Song of Ice and Fire" in any context. That's just the name of the (main) book series. PTWP is important in the aSoIaF series and it's supposed to be from the R'hllor religion, not the Targaryens.https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/The_Prince_That_Was_Promised<"The Prince That Was Promised" (sometimes called "the Prince Who Was Promised" or "the One Who Was Promised", and also referred to as "the Lord's Chosen, "the Son of Fire", and "the Warrior of Light") is a prophesied savior in the religion of the Lord of Light.<Moreover, it is never clearly revealed where the prophecy about the Prince originated, or what culture/religion made the original prediction. Legends of Azor Ahai are widespread across the further east of Essos, though he is known by different names, depending on the region. According to Melisandre, who hails from the city of Asshai, the prophecy about the Prince was known there five thousand years ago, but even this was millennia after Azor Ahai supposedly lived.
The current plotline is at the end of Fire and Blood. GRRM has plans for another book to continue Targ history after that. There's about 100 years of possible content already outlined in F&B between Aegon's Conquest and the start of HotD. IIRC HBO have suggested future seasons of the show covering other time periods.
Daemon literally murdered her husband and his uncle. 3 out of 6 kids of Rjaenyra are legitimate. Last episode Rhaenys murdered hundreds of civilians. I don't know how you can possibly think the Blacks are the good guys.
Also Otto has balls of steel going to Dragonstone without any of his grandson's dragons with like 10 men and then not even flinches.
Even if you dislike the Greens, you must admit that their dialog is written much better. Characters talking this episode felt more like late-GoT. I don't know if different writers write for different teams but that's my impression.
I got the vague feeling that Daemon told it to go rogue? Remember there is no reason for Daemon to love the three Strongs, he knows they are bastards and they are in the way of his children to be crowned.
From all the other Targ stuff, I could only imagine Aegon's conquest and the Blackfyre rebellion be worth covering. But at the point of the Blackfyre rebellion they don't own dragons anymore so they can't do dragon action. Yes, all dragons will die in HotD.
I meant it in a sense how show presents characters in cinematic language. Rhaenyras solemn yet uplifting coronation, the underdog position, musical swells every time something good for blacks happen, all the talk about fulfilling ones vows.
I give this season a 9 out of 10. They slipped up twice: Rhaenys dragon entry was fucking dumb. Laena dying before we even got her backstory of claiming Vhagar was rushed. Oh an I wish we would have the scene where Viserys tells his kids stories about Jacerys, we knew nothing about him except that he was somehow great?
Other then that, I really don't find much to complain. And I feel like this is one of the few times people identified quality over vanity (in the comparison with Rings of Power). Not all hope is lost. I hope GRRM keeps being involved in this. Fight scenes and weapons was also quite realistic, they must have had some historical advisor.
It didn't have the shocking moments we have in GoT season 1, but since we know where its going, the war will have aplenty of that. Actors are good too, especially Olivia Cooke. I am still on the fence with the older Rhaenerys actress, but from what I gather in the book Rhaenerys wasn't even that charismatic or breautiful? So maybe that's a good comparison.
Oh one more nitpick. The birth porn was a bit forced.
>>30530>but from what I gather in the book Rhaenerys wasn't even that charismatic or breautiful? So maybe that's a good comparison.
The book is written by the Maesters who are team green. They literally say Alicent's beauty of youth is preserved but Rhaenyra was a fat ugly whore. It's probably good they are taking liberties since the book is supposed to be unreliable anyway, but at times they go too far, like Rhaenys killing all those peasants or Krispy Kreme murdering someone at a wedding.
>>30531>Krispy Kreme murdering someone at a wedding.
They would have to include another tournament scene and they needed some shocking moment otherwise viewers would complain about the lack of events. Cole getting away with that can easily be explained by Alicent and Otto vouching for him. I didn't actually mind that, plus it was shot well.
The Rheanys thing is dumb yeah. Especially since she doesn't just Dracarys them, preventing the war, and then explaining it later with "it's not my war". WHAT? What a bitch dude.
yeah like she would do that
she has no one but her granddaughters, it's bad writing for drama
but understandable considering from the character perspective
i'm kinda excited for the sea snake surviving but they canceled his show :(
what was he cooking?
I want jaherys slice of life anime special
Dude's reign was drama free after maegor
Actually Blackfyre and Conquest might be cruel, but seeing Gigachad Maegor just fuck up the maestors and poison everybody would be fun as fuck
>>30505>le greens are good!>b-but smol bean uwu queen didn't know!!11
fuck the greens,
fake pious and noble, the targaryens at least don't pretend about caring about the kingdom, they rule for power and that's it
Greens are a good example of why this kind of absolute power is so dangerous. It attracts Machiavellian psychos like this. Viserys is the best you can hope for in an enlightened despot tbh. Just chilling out keeping things running. Targs are gonna Targ flexing their dragons but you get people like the Hightowers near a position of power and suddenly it's never enough. You can't just be happy having influence, you have to get into these wack power games, murdering people and starting wars because "that's how the game is played" except they weren't doing that until you showed up.
Feudalism is not absolutism, it's more particularistic. The king doesn't have a standing army and needs to keep dealing with his vassals.>Machiavellian
lol, as if Machiavelli was not highly progressive for his time.
This was a cool af episode, it really felt like a prequel
I did not know that they had messenger bags in those times,
What do you think daemons shoes are made of? Are they boots>>30538
Fr, they're annoying as hell>>30539
Was Machiavelli a real dude? How was he progressive for his time
Hightowers - especially Otto - are pieces of shit. Aemond is salvageable and probably would make a good Machiavellian Ruler, his brother is irredeemable though.>>30538
Viserys was a idiot who happens to have a pretty good daughter. His entire arc is his navelgazing about better rulers than him.
woops wrong tag>>30505
Are you stupid? The Greens rule no different than the Blacks. The Peasants and smallfolk see absolutely no change in their day to day lives. Perhaps some nobility get purged and executed but who the hell cares. This is why the Greens have constantly been the more peaceful monarchs. The people who get executed here are nobles, rich land owners and high lords, and why should I give a single fuck if one rich guy kills another rich guy? So long as they aren't killing poor people through war. If the Targs met the peace terms then we wouldn't have seen any war let alone suffering of the poor.
Let me put it another way, imagine getting upset over one group of capitalists canceling another group of capitalists and the canceled group going to war over being cancelled.
>>30544>Was Machiavelli a real dude
yes>How was he progressive for his time
He was nonreligious. He didn't think divine right of kings or the divinity of Christ was real, but rather a purely realpolitik justification for taking power. He believed religion was a tool for governing people. I wouldn't call him "progressive" (which has too much liberal baggage) so much as highly "Pragmatic" and "secular" for his time.
>>30548> THEY ARE LIKE CAPITALISTS!!!1
God this is stupid, the emerging bougeoisie (the bank i guess) would be the most progrssive element in this universe.
>>30551>the emerging bougeoisie (the bank i guess) would be the most progrssive element in this universe.
<muh iron bank
>>30084> I gotta read up on how exactly fedualism was overthrown
this is where Marx's histmat shines - read primitive accumulation chapter of capital
you seem to be confusing virtue/morals with progressive (in terms of progression of history). word has a lot of liberal baggage but thats the only way it makes sense when referring to the universe.
Agree. Something tells me that people are missing the obvious thing that the directors are playing with, one of the most obvious ones was the perfectly made sex scene between Rhaenyra and her uncle, why was it perfect? Because of how it was filmed in a "loving" way. The show is intentionally trying to frame the Targaryens as the "good guys" but even the writers and directors intended this because it's to play on the fact that the Targaryens are complete and utter psychopaths and cruel people.
As you said that the Greens are written "better" but this is intentionally done because the Greens are basically framed as Duty, capital D Duty type folks which is cold and to the point whereas the more "chaotic" nature of the Targaryens is equally framed as more "empathetic" despite the fact that the Targaryens are extremely cruel people that think everything they do is justified.
Duty is pure cope, the only analysis that makes sense is in fact Machiavelli in which case Aemond / Rhaenyra are the ballers. It's really how much of a psychopath do you want on the throne - they are both competent and intelligent and realize power is meant to serve them.
This is stupid. Targaryans are the only correct side here. The Greens are just straight up evil and so is this bitch who got uppity asking that children not be used for whatever retarded shit the smallfolk do. Guess what? That's why they're smallfolk, they're useless and are nothing but subjects of people with actual values. There's a reason Targaryans conquered Westeros and goes back to why leaders exist because of their powerful and sovereign will to get things done.
I think Aemond is literally the synthesis of the Hightowers political and conniving scheming and the Targaryens bloodthirstiness. He really is an ideal ruler in this case, but written to be a huge cunt which makes it hard to root for him.
Banks existed before the Normans conquered Britain retard. Banks existed all throughout the middle ages. You don't know what the fuck bourgeois property is let alone how it came to be.
I like Aemond's personality. Daemon is the cunt. Aemond is blunt and somehow that makes him a cunt? Daemon is the one who's wilfully cruel, Aemond responds to stupidity by showing his lack of respect to inferior people rightly so.
It doesn't matter, banks are an offshoot of Merchant capital the fact that it hasn't become subordinated to industrial capital is irrelevant. They are the proto-class of what would become the emerging bourgeoisie (along with Merchants so I guess the Spider?).
I think they are both rather cruel.
You have no idea what you're talking about lol shits cracking me up.
Interest-bearing capital, or, as we may call it in its antiquated form, usurer's capital, belongs together with its twin brother, merchant's capital, to the antediluvian forms of capital, which long precede the capitalist mode of production and are to be found in the most diverse economic formations of society.
Volume 3. kys
You've only proved my point.
that youre a huge piece of shit?
Capitalism is a historically progressive force when compared to the peasants who wallow in their filth and ignorance. The only correct position is to uncritically support all forces which seek to increase the productive forces. The only forces doing that in GOT are the iron bank and critically, the suicidal impulses that drive the dragon-holding nobles to fight to the death. Socialized production, or organization can not emerge under the threat of dragons. They make any rational, human calculation impossible. We just saw how they aren't under human control, they're above it.
1) Death to peasants until they get their asses into manufactories
2) Death to the incestual nobles
3) Uncritical support for the usurers of the Iron Bank and the Deep State of the Maesters, the true heroes of ASOIAF.
Aren't the Maesters jsut the ecclesiastic order of the Middle Ages - ie put in place to give an intellectual legitimacy for the ruling aristocracy. Or do they have weird secret societies besides book hoarding?
and her band of (lumpen) whores?
What is this guy on the right's story?
I feel like I've seen him before
I swear I thought we would see "Gods be Good" guy again but…>>30573>>30575
she is unironically based as fuck
she might be a pimp still but at least she's achieving some basic good of stopping the child fighting rings
sad that we didn't get melissandra cameo, maybe next season
what are the iron bank exactly, i've not seen GoT
they sound interesting
>>30578> what are the iron bank exactly,
They aren't interesting really. The Lannisters in GoT basically just take out enormous loans with the Iron Bank because it turns out they have no real wealth besides the credit they can leverage with their name.
why do the lannisters get loans only?
because they're gambling that by taking out loans and hiring mercenaries and making power grabs that in the long run they can pay those loans back or wage war on their creditors
ASOIAF is unironically fascist
Why the mods haven’t taken down this thread, I don’t know
The Targarayans are foreign invaders, and do you know what place Valyria was? They practiced blood magic and human experiments. Now one of those freak families managed to conquer a bunch of Western feudal kingdoms because they have dragons (e.g. nukes) and rule by constant fear and terror (except maybe Viserys).
In traditional feudalism, for all its problems, some
obligation towards the subjects existed, even if it was mediated through religion (which the Greens use). Of course there was tons of hypocrisy (see the behavior of the Crusaders for example) but it was not a lawless or chaotic world. Mutual respect didn't exist between nobles and commoners in battle during the the Middle Ages, but battles were rare because of how risky they were.
As it has already been said, who have the Hightowers actually fucked over? Other nobles. This can't be fucking said for Rhaenys for example.
Banks are of course the most "progressive" element. To the other comment that banks did exists before the rise of banking families like the Medici or the Fugger (kek), as far as banks existed they couldn't act on their own. They were complete powerless. And even then the emerging bourgeoisie in Florence, Augsburg, the Hanse, etc. was eventually subdued.
Competition between nobles of course doesn't follow the same rules as competition between capitalists, of course. But there is little doubt that if the Green achieve complete victory, with Otto being the man in charge, things would immensely better for the realm. When Robert conquered the Throne, a period of prosperity followed, and Robert was a bad king. Because the realm would be under a native Westerosi who follows the native religion. "Duty" maybe a cope, but it's clear the Targaryans have no sense of it, I mean the incest thing alone which goes against the laws of the native religion is a red flag alone.
Literally just /pol/ tier "might makes right" logic. Absolute state of Team Black. Wonder what you'll do when the dragons are gone.
Lannisters use their tons of gold as deposits for loans. When their mines dry up, they keep it secret.
Yeah the show is clearly biased in favor of the blacks in the same way the book was clearly biased in favor of the greens.>>30539>Feudalism is not absolutism
I said absolute power because Otto said it. You are correct about feudalism but I was just tying what I was saying to the story and the Hightowers' motives. It's obviously not an absolute monarchy.>as if Machiavelli was not highly progressive for his time
I meant Machieavellian in terms of personality and schemes not political policy. The show doesn't bother talking about the policies of either side because that's not what it's about.
can you dumb it down for the peasant folk (me)
except the book has the virtue of unreliable narrators
whereas the show is canon, and is from an actual historical perspectiveHISTORY HAS A TARGARYEN BIAS
Also does anyone agree with this theory that the Targs actually can only control the dragons because they're supposed to fulfill the prophecy?
That's why after the Dance of the Dragons they go extinct
The prophecy about the song of ice and fire? Why would the dragons go extinct 200 years before that if they are supposed to help fulfill the prophecy?
Maybe because the retardgaryans keep cutting them out of their egg sacs before they hatch.
It's fascist fiction, yes
No. Dude. Dragons are like Tigers or Alligators. You can "train" such animals so much before they only follow their instincts. I think you're honestly pretty retarded thinking Dragons are equivalent of loyal dogs. In the books Dany constantly struggled to have dragons obey her so much so she had to "punish" them which did nothing by the way. The tv show had a bit of that but understated how "independent" dragons are and pretty much do whatever they want.
There’s no real mode of production depicted but the story is basically the mind fantasy of a fascist that believes in a “might makes right” order in the world
what was your favourite fanart or meme?https://old.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/yc2la9/i_will_miss_this_show_in_honor_of_a_wonderful/
Also Boros is illterate? How, Is that some Baratheon trait?
Did the dad die
According to the guy's theory is that since the prophecy was lost and the targaryens stopped serving it, the dragons lost their magic
daenyrs with her might still loses in the end tho?
There could be any number of reasons. I thought he was blind at first but idk. Jaime Lannister is dyslexic and told Brienne about Tywin abusing him over it.
abuse like how, damn
did he treat any of his kids right? no wonder they went full targ
He was yelling at him and making him read the same shit over and over to try to get him to read it correctly, which he couldn't. Don't remember if he hit him or anything though.
I think it'd revealing how in Imperial and or feudal organizations of society that there is more "meritocracy" to be found as opposed to feudal and imperial era "free cities" or in other words "communal city states" as they were known in the real world history. It was only until the industrial revolution that merchant society expanded so wildly and made it possible to get rid of nearly all feudal arrangements. This shows how much importance the steam engine had in pretty much all societies on earth. Even America, one of the few rare republics, imagined itself at best as a nation of small holding farmers or yeomen, which was the ideal conditions for even serfs and other peasants of their time. The industrial revolution made it possible for waged work and the splitting of society into just two classes. This is why in ASOIAF it's preferable to make it "big" in a feudal society than try and make it in the merchant "free cities".
>>30615>It was only until the industrial revolution that merchant society expanded so wildly
This is a rather anglo centric view on history tbh.
Venezia and Genova both cucked the Byzantine Empire at one point in the High Middle ages and it never really recovered from it, roughly at the same time the Hanse was a very strong political and cultural force in Germany, Scandinavia, Netherlands & Flanders, the Baltics and all the way to Novgorod in the East. I'm sure in other parts of the world similar capitalist political entities existed during the Middle ages and before, e.g. Phoenecians. Also, the so called industrial revolution was a gradual process in technology and economics spanning over several centuries which eventually helped to strenghten the power of the bourgeois class under feudalism and facilitate bourgeois-liberal revolutions, eventually enabling bourgeois capitalists becoming the most dominant force in formerly absolutist feudal societies in Europe. >>30558
This. They made him kill the Strong bastard at such an early age in a kinda unfair fight, now he looks like a villain which he isn't. I'm glad Corlys is back and i would have prefered an epic sea battle with him defeating the triarchy over Rhaenys' stupid dragon scene at Aegon's coronation in ep9 and in ep10 the boring coronation of the smug princess, who displays now an implausible, drastic change in character, as she now seems to resemble more Viserys rather than Daemon.
Every nation you named were still largely feudalistic in terms of it's social economy largely based on tribute and taking percents of the serfs production. Just because the Netherlands and such had merchant economies doesn't mean it was the dominating politico-economic system. In many ways you're the anglo-centrist here with your assumptions. Genghis Khan had a large merchant and trade economies but their official and generalized political system was based on tribute and feudal production. Most economies in the world were agricultural producing societies with a political system of tribute to their land lords from the west all the way to the far east. The industrial revolution was what truly changed everything with regards to political systems. This is what Karl Marx was getting it with regards to his quote "hitherto". Industrial society made clear these contradictions in a non-linear way which anti Marxists and vulgar Marxists use as a gotcha to say that Marxism is class reductive when it isn't.
WTF are you talking about, the Dutch were the most powerful people in the world in the centuries before the Industrial Revolution if anything
They even had their hands in the Spanish and Portuguese Empires, and German and northern Italian merchants also played a huge driving force in those empires
George RR Martin is a fat old squishy liberal who spent most of his life before ASOIAF writing dumb shit like "what if the american civil war had vampires".
yes, i know, "Scatch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" yada yada but you'd have to be a clown to think the guy has explicit fascist sympathies. dude's probably never even fired a gun
booh hooo green bitch
they're all villains
The Black Queen will have all their heads on spikes
Be grateful Her Grace didn't listen to Daemon and skewer them right there and then,
>>30622>what if the american civil war had vampires".
did he really write that. is it good?
>>30628>The Black Queen will have all their heads on spikes
anon… the books
>>30609>Also Boros is illterate?
Yeah.>How, Is that some Baratheon trait?
Kinda. A lot of the Baratheon lineage is known for their prowess in combat. They get their court maesters to read everything to them. Stannis Baratheon though is well-read and makes a point of correcting peoples grammar
The trend is real.
Anarchos, Trots, left-coms, etc. root for Team Black
Tankies, MLs, Dengists, etc. root for Team Green
>>30622>dude's probably never even fired a gun
He is a draft dodger with regards to Vietnam. He openly brags about how he faked his way out of the draft. Which makes him based for a liberal.
a liberal but he does give zero shit about liberal sensibilties. He is the type of autistic nerd who would explain to you in detail why "Kingdom Come" was right to have no black people in it. I respect him for that.
How can anyone root for team green? Aegon is a rapist degenerate,
does he really?
wait what's that about kingdom come
What do you think is worse, rape or murder? Daemon didn't rape his first wife, he bashed her head in
Even last episode he showed his true colors when he almost choked out his wife just because he got upset that his borther told her something he didn't know.
Also, it's barely Aegon who is in charge (not yet anyway) but Alicent and Otto, and they are not malicious.
Aegon as degenerate and decadent he is was reluctant to become king because he possessed enough self-criticism to know that he's not the best candidate to sit the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms. Meanwhile, every single black Targayen fuck from Rhaenys over Rhaenyra to Daemon dreams about nothing else than being king or queen himself or herself just for the sake of it (also true for Daenerys, if it wasn't for Tyrion and Jon she would not have given a single fuck about the walkers, through all GoT seasons she only cared about the throne and her nukes). >>30628>"Her Grace"
höhöhö very nice, anarshit. You're a well-behaved underling of your reactionary girl boss mistress, aren't you
Lolwut Venezia and Genova were republics with huge imperialist navies ruled by bourgeois capitalists. Hanse cities and free and free & imperial cities in the German realm had their own constitutions, had no obligations to feudal lords, only very miniscule obligations to the emperor and were ruled by councils which consisted of elected members of the most wealthy bourgeois capitalists of the city. There was no serfdom in the cities, in fact peasant serfs who had ran away from their landlords would be considered free if they managed to live 1 year in a city. They usually would become free craftsmen and other salaried workers there.
I'm not an anarchist idiot
These flags are house flags of House Targaryens but of course a fake, green supporter who despite being so against the Targs still upholds their flags and mimics it on their dogshit flags
The flags of House Black are true, and mutual and equal partnership
It also looks modern af>>30673
Pathetic wishwashing off a degen who makes his own children fight and shaves down their teeth
His Grace, The King's Consort is an Army Man first, and doesn't care for cruelty but Justice
Which showed by the last ep how he offered a merciless death to those knights
Don't compare your jag-off to a military commander
There's a reason why they had to replace the City Cloak's because despite being gone for a long time, They respect and honour Daemon more than the fake usurper, a puppet's marce, Shillgon II
>>30673>What do you think is worse, rape or murder?
Unironically resolving to murder in order to get rid of someone you arent allowed to divorce and who you got basically shotgun wed to is, while still evil, incomparable to being a serial rapist.
>Also, it's barely Aegon who is in charge (not yet anyway) but Alicent and Otto, and they are not malicious
"Not yet anyway" is doing a lot of work here. And Otto is no more morally restrained than Daemon when it comes to his desire for power. Also, Daemon wont be king either, he is a queen consort.
Daemon also murdered that servant to stand in for Laenor.
>>30679>Which showed by the last ep how he offered a merciless death to those knights
His literal quote:<you will die screaming
At this point I don't know if you are just some soyfacing redditor or literally 13 or something, but this level of idiocy must be hurting your brain. >>30680
Have you read the book? I hope you do know what happens to Rhaenyra. >>30685>while still evil
I think ending someone's life after you lure them into a false feeling of safety is worse than rape. And every single legal system in the world agrees with me on that. >Also, Daemon wont be king either, he is a queen consort.
He tried to start a war as people could hear Rhaenyra screaming as she has a miscarriage.
Still no argument as to why Otto and Alicent won't be better for the realm instead of another insane Targaryen.
All of Rhaenyra's three oldest children who she proclaims as heir are bastards.
s33the, still more honorable than shillgon ii>>30691
is elden ring anyway connected to GoT
i can't believe he wrote a video game too
He's a student of history and isn't a lot of GoT just a rewrite of real history with fantasy elements throne on top?
GRRM is an old school nerd, today you would say "autist", when nerd culture began in the 70s. This means that every single action his characters take will be meticulously reviewed, and he sometimes burns entire chapters he deems to be unfit.
On the top side it means we are actually getting a coherent story. On the downside it means we have to wait years for a new book.
we need more nerds>>30704
so in terms of varys, who would that be?
Seems like popular opinion is Bagoas. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/b44iga/spoilers_published_varys_historical_inspiration/https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/vlmxh/is_varys_based_on_this_historical_figure/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2xhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagoas
But I was more referring to the overall plot and setup being based on The War of The Roses and other things.https://www.unomaha.edu/news/2016/06/a-game-of-thrones-a-war-of-roses.phphttps://theconversation.com/ambition-greed-and-death-the-roman-roots-of-game-of-thrones-119247>Although the universe of Game of Thrones is steeped in a medieval atmosphere, several of the central in the series – Daenerys Targaryen, Joffrey Baratheon and Jon Snow – seem directly inspired by characters from Roman antiquity.
>George R.R. Martin, author of the novels behind the hit HBO series, has affirmed that the history of the Roman Empire was one of his sources of inspiration. Indeed, it was the 117km wall that the Emperor Hadrian had built in the north of England in the years 120 AD that gave him the idea of the Wall.
If I'm not mistaken he used to have this web 1.0 website that had a lot of good information about Roman history. I remember I came across it before I ever heard of Song of Ice and Fire or him because I was reading up on Roman war dogs.
I liked seeing the dragon get chomped by the bigger, monitor lizard looking dragon
It's not like Bobby B's heir. Rhaenyra is still their mother and her bastards get their claim from her. A monarch can legitimize their bastards if they want. The reason the War of Five Kings happened in GoT is because Joffrey isn't related to King Robert except very indirectly through the families being related. He has no blood from the king. It's a different scenario. It would be like if Bobby B had raised one of his bastards as a true born son.
fuck you!!!>>30708>take history>make everyhting bigger and more dramatic>millions???>>30740>The feet stuff being real made me laugh like never
oh man, lil guy got chomped in one bite
Honestly Rhaenera is a dumbass. Shouldn't have sent young boys to do high level negotiating.
Should have sent both to the same place. A prince still commands respect. And even Aemond didn't really wanted to kill Luke. The scene was about the dragon being an unstable WMD, everyone hates Aemond now, I don't know why. At best you can accuse him of willful negligence.
Rhaenera is subpar to the top players of the game by a good amount. Her limited success comes from her strong willpower, her advisors and the sheer weight of her claim. >>30858
Partly, it's contrarianism, secondly it's the infatuation with realpolitik over romantic idealism.
But hey, the cast seems like really nice people. I like shows where I can't stand the actors, but this is luckily not the case here.
Also, there seems to be a good axis between the actors, the showrunners and GRRM. They all said they had great freedom in creating these characters, some dialog was improvised. Also this is the only show I know where the female directors deliver the good episodes.
Really shows you what kind of narcisisstic failsons D&D were.
what are some shows where you hate the actors, spill the tea
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