MULTIPOLARISM

Posting mode: Reply [Return]
Name
Options
Subject	Spoiler Image
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password	(For file deletion.)

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 21:14:45 No.1595379

File: 1694466885317.png (30.91 KB, 611x311, 43530954.png)

Reading comments on the Chinese site Guancha underneath a translated article from Alexander Dugin.
https://www.guancha.cn/AlexanderDugin/2023_09_04_707332.shtml

>Dugin's classification of multi-civilizations exposed the true thinking of the Russian elite, classifying China only as the leading brother in Southeast Asia, and Russia is responsible for Eurasian cooperation. It is obviously unwilling to allow China to contact Central Asia, and India is responsible for South Asia. Forgot Pakistan, Sri Lanka. While the “end of history” is laughable, so is Eugene’s division of civilized territory. The real avenue is a community with a shared future for mankind, not "warlords" who divide territories. It seems that the resistance China faces in its westward development of the Belt and Road Initiative is not only the United States and the West, but also Russia’s influence, such as Russia’s control of Central Asia, its promotion of India and Iran, and its military support for Africa.

[…]

<China is different from Russia. From an economic perspective, China has long been a global country rather than a regional country. The Russians only look at the scope of China's military force to define China's role.

[…]

>Russia itself is a branch of Western civilization, but it has become so powerful that it has become its own group. Looking at Russia's national behavior, you can find that they are very similar to other Western countries. The contradiction between the West and Russia is that the West does not recognize Russia. From this point of view, Russia is now our ally. Supporting Russia is inevitable and in line with our interests. However, we also need to be vigilant to prevent mindless support of Russia [or that] everything Russia supports is correct.

[…]

<It can only be said that Russia is a fellow traveler of China for the time being, and the two sides have cooperation and struggle.

[…]

>It is understandable that Dugin explains Europe, the Middle East, India, and Africa from the perspective of religious beliefs. Using religion to explain New China seems specious. Since the founding of New China, we have used Mao Zedong’s philosophical thoughts to construct our society and passed the test of practice. Generations of leaders have used Mao Zedong Thought as the basis to expound the vision of our new China's new cause in combination with reality, and have firmly implemented it. This is completely different from Dugin's theory of destiny.

[…]

<I find that Russians are very good at analyzing problems. But don't know how to solve the problem. On the contrary, I think the Soviets were not only good at analyzing problems, but they were also good at solving them. Compared to the Soviet Union, Russia does lack something.

[…]

>China is not opposed to globalization, but to American-style globalization. In order to combat the liberal ideology of American-style globalization, Dugin borrowed the narrative of a multi-polar world, but in essence it is still anti-globalization, which is the so-called "territoryization". And China letting Russia be the second child is just obscenity. A comprehensive and correct understanding of a community with a shared future for mankind is both multipolarity and globalization.

[…]

<The environment around Russia is even more unsafe than before the war. Emperor Putin's iron fist will eventually turn the surrounding sheep into a wolf pack against Russia. This result is far beyond Putin's expectations. We know that no country in the world can defeat Russia. The only one who can defeat Russia is Russia itself. It's a pity that Russia just doesn't understand this truth and is now on the road to defeating itself. Now the Ukrainian quagmire has tightly restrained the black bear of Russia, leaving the wise and experienced Putin in a dilemma. Russia and Ukraine have been unable to negotiate peace talks for a long time. European and American sanctions have tightened the ropes, and Ukraine's foreign aid has continued to flow. You will understand that the United States and NATO will never give Putin any more time this time.

<Modi once said to Putin: This is not a time for war. […] I think the era of the tsarist empire of territorial expansion is really gone forever. Moreover, the development of the Russo-Ukrainian war over the past year has proved that Emperor Putin made a major misjudgment before starting the war, and the blitzkrieg turned into a protracted war and a war of attrition. The most embarrassing thing about Putin now is that he can neither win nor lose, nor can he stop!

<It is impossible for any strong leader to make accurate judgments all the time in a cocoon of distorted information for more than two decades and surrounded by the sycophancy of those around him. This is the warning of a dictator. Therefore, a great person like Putin cannot go against the trend of the world, because wisdom, wisdom and arrogance and stupidity are just a difference of thoughts; maybe the final outcome is that the actor becomes a hero and the hero becomes a joke. Of course, Russia has a huge nuclear arsenal, so it is impossible for Russia to fail obviously, but Ukraine's meat grinder will definitely make Russia slowly lose blood and weaken.

[…]

>Any civilization can be viewed from two aspects, the "material" and the "spiritual", which in the perspective of historical materialism are the "economic base" and the "superstructure". The economic base and the superstructure are dialectically unified. Any religion is an ideology and is at the core of the "superstructure". When looking at religious issues, it must be combined with the economic foundation.

>In today's world, or to be precise, in human history since the Industrial Revolution, the decisive driving force is brought about by industrialization. The basis for the emergence of the Industrial Revolution and its growth into a powerful industrialization force was the agricultural economic zone. Specifically, the "Industrial Revolution" was born in European Christian countries, gradually spread to the world, and took root, sprouted, and grew in Eastern Confucian cultural countries. To sum it up, "the foundation of industrialization is agricultural civilization." The negative evidence is that Turkey and Egypt were exposed to the fruits of the Industrial Revolution earlier than Eastern countries, but were unable to inherit them. Why? Because Islamic civilization is the ideology of nomadic peoples.

>If we can look at human civilization from the perspective of historical materialism, it will not be difficult to see the essence through phenomena and draw conclusions that are consistent with reality. "The dialectical unity of economic base and superstructure" is our basic stance and method of looking at human civilization. This is not a politically correct need, but a realistic and rational choice.

>I have already written quite a few posts about this, so I won’t go into details. The conclusion is that this Russian scholar who once lived in the Soviet era did not inherit the good things from the Soviet era, and the problem is superficial!

[…]

<Dugin's understanding of religion clearly shows the characteristics of a God-centered civilization, and a set of fatalistic thoughts is built around God. China is human-centered. The existence or absence of gods does not determine human pursuits. Humans and gods have an equal and cooperative relationship. Therefore, Chinese people can interact and cooperate with people of all kinds around the world.

[…]

>If Russia had not had nuclear weapons, it would have been torn into pieces. In terms of national power, it has been reduced to a second- or third-rate small country. It only defends the largest land in the world and has a bad record in history. It also knows that without allies, there will be endless troubles. How can it stand in the world? It is logically feasible to find commonalities and status from the origin of religion and civilization. After all, the "Vatican" is right there. It is understandable to be obsessed with the West, but the integration of politics and religion is extremely difficult in today's scientific and prosperous world, let alone the future … Some people are abandoning reality and talking about ideals.

[…]

<Deep down in their hearts, the Russian elite has a deep sense of civilizational inferiority. They believe that the West is a civilized society and they are barbarians from the West. However, in front of other non-Westerners, they regard themselves as white. Tsarist Russia took advantage of the Industrial Revolution in Western Europe to expand eastward, far exceeding its own carrying capacity. If it is not strong enough, it may not be able to defend it.

[…]

>Christianity is a bit of a mess.

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 21:32:09 No.1595395

>This past June, at the closing ceremony of the Summit for a New Global Financing Pact in Paris, South African President Cyril Ramaphosa introduced a topic that, on its face, had little to do with international finance. In remarks to dozens of global leaders, he raised the issue of COVID-19 vaccines. In 2021, when the first COVID-19 vaccines were rolled out, South Africans “felt like we were beggars when it came to vaccine availability,” Ramaphosa said. “The Northern Hemisphere countries … were hogging them, and they didn’t want to release them at the time when we needed them most. That,” he continued, “generated and deepened disappointment and resentment on our part, because we felt like life in the Northern Hemisphere is much more important than life in the global South.”

>Ramaphosa is not alone in seeing things this way. In 2021, Strive Masiyiwa, a Zimbabwean businessman and philanthropist—and now a Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation trustee—said that rich countries’ behavior during the pandemic perpetuated “a deliberate global architecture of unfairness.” This deep sense of betrayal has corroded trust among countries, and the geopolitical implications are significant.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/africa/roots-global-souths-new-resentment

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 21:32:52 No.1595397

File: 1694467972528.png (256.48 KB, 500x340, 1c2f08d5daef61f0bf850b882f….png)

>>1595377
>US is at the top
>they are lower than where they were before
>but still at the top
>this is a contradiction! you are retarded!

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 21:41:20 No.1595408

File: 1694468480107.png (10.39 KB, 476x357, graph.png)

>>1595377
Something can be declining and also currently dominant. No contradiction.
Not sure where you're getting 'peak dominance' from, but I haven't been reading this thread.

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 22:16:06 No.1595427

>>1595377
Here's the two digit explanation: a player can take consecutive losses and still be the #1, if he has won enough in the past to keep himself there.

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 22:52:50 No.1595434

>>1595366
>/pol/ bait

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 22:54:47 No.1595436

>>1595296
>If Russia were imperialist it would be able to set prices itself through a lack of able competitors due to having a monopoly.
Okay, now we are getting somewhere.
However, weren't the Russians able to already do so with their own gas reserves? Are the US really controlling the price of Russian energy exports at this point in time, with the power of monopoly capital? Were the Russians too stupid to forget to hike the price on natural gas to their EU customers, you know, when the whole pipeline business — and I know the US eagerly destroyed one of them — happened?

>The very existence of unilateral sanctions is a great indicator for imperialism in the modern world, countries that can do sanctions are imperialist, and countries that are subject to sanctions are not imperialist.
This is honestly a pretty good criteria.
What I'm arguing though, and most of you do too, is that the US won't be able to impose these sanctions as easily as it could in the past.
Therefore, I argue we already live in a multipolar world, at least from my Euro point of view.
My question is, what do we do now? The famous Lenin question, you know.

>pic related
Fiat money is fake. All this dollar denominated shit backed by nothing but debt could crumble tomorrow and I'm not even joking.
We are at the point where EU food companies realized they could increase their earnings by +33% completely out of hot air, because "inflation".
What's the point of earning a strong wage on international terms when a fruit costs 5 coins out of the monthly dispense of 1200 coins and rent takes a third of your wage?
The point is to absorb the glut of commodities China is producing, that's right, but should we cry for the Chinese national bourgeoisie? After all, they willingly soft pegging their money to the USD in order to play this global game.

You are right in the sense that this GDP shit has real effects on the countries you label as not imperialist, but you are naive if you think you won't be subject to sanctions and shitty labour conditions if a few other capitalist nation states currently hated by the West become the global hegemons instead.

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 23:09:25 No.1595451

>>1595434
The question is out of ignorance, not prejudice.
I literally don't know how any western country engages with them in the past 20 years. Trade, policy, diplomatic relations, I'm sure there are some but idk anything about them or where to start. As far as I know (approximately nothing) Nigeria is a bigger power in Africa, and the regional coups make them more interesting to note.

I know more about Zimbabwean novel cooling techniques in architecture than I do about SA. I just think - apartheid, mines, rugby union.

Anonymous 2023-09-11 (Mon) 23:13:09 No.1595453

File: 1694473989298.pdf (960.76 KB, 191x255, Unequal Exchange.pdf)

>>1595436
I managed to find the article that the Anon you're talking to is paraphrasing, it's definitely worth taking a look right from the source.

Anonymous 2023-09-12 (Tue) 06:06:52 No.1595647

File: 1694498811632-0.png (648.21 KB, 717x865, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1694498811632-1.mp4 (66.3 MB, 1280x720, afdb eritrea.mp4)

File: 1694498811632-2.mp4 (2.16 MB, 960x720, afwerki salary.mp4)

>I had an excellent visit to Eritrea. I came away highly impressed by the passion to develop and the incredible resilience and self-reliance of the Eritrean people. The best part was when I was told by a UN senior level official that “In Eritrea, corruption is zero percent.” Another UN senior official said “Eritrea’s capacity for pharmaceuticals meets all WHO global standards.” The capacity and first-rate skills of Eritrean engineers are amazing and should be shared with other African countries. The President is so passionate, determined and very simple, with a salary of $6,000 per year. Eritrea and its highly committed people have all it takes to rapidly grow and thrive in the years ahead.

Anonymous 2023-09-12 (Tue) 06:09:06 No.1595649

File: 1694498946260.mp4 (4.89 MB, 1280x720, afwerki china debt trap.mp4)

>>1595647

Anonymous 2023-09-12 (Tue) 07:26:28 No.1595703

>>1595296
>Turkey and Southafrica aren't imperialist
>Sweden is 30% more imperialist than the US

Anonymous 2023-09-12 (Tue) 08:25:21 No.1595712

>>1595379
Do most Chinese news websites get smart people making efforts in the comments? Because I almost systematically find a cesspool of schizos and reactionaries posts when I look at comment sections of the western press.

Anonymous 2023-09-12 (Tue) 22:21:48 No.1596114

>>1595707
>the U$ Democratic Party as a de-facto ally (Biden himself recently said that the U$ will not contain China as long as he is president, thus confirming that the only reason he has done some token “Anti-China” measures is to deflect from the Republican accusations that he and Hunter were receiving Chinese Bribes)
Imagine being so schizo you try to whitewash Xi turning on the US under Biden, who is seen as belligerent by everyone in BRICS

Anonymous 2023-09-12 (Tue) 22:52:43 No.1596128

>TFW the Taliban built more infrastructure in the last 2 years than Biden.

Anonymous 2023-09-12 (Tue) 23:03:36 No.1596144

>>1595379
>>Russia itself is a branch of Western civilization
This was what I always thought of in response to Dugin's ramblings. Like bruh you expect me to believe that a predominantly Christian country writing in a Greek-derived script that literally called itself "Third Rome" for centuries is somehow culturally closer to East Asia than it is to Europe?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 00:25:39 No.1596189

>>1596128
Meanwhile in NY it takes 100 years to build a few new miles of subway track.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 00:39:23 No.1596195

>>1596189
It's not like there's a lot of land property right going on in Afghanistan. Or courts to enforce those laws.

10 year old communist initiative dissolved because they can't agree on what imperialism means Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 01:28:06 No.1596212

File: 1694568486007.jpg (64.7 KB, 799x464, european communist initiat….jpg)

.>A teleconference of the Full Plenum of the parties of the European Communist Initiative (ECI) was held on 9/9/2023 to discuss the problematic situation that has recently developed in the ECI after the outbreak of the imperialist war in Ukraine.

>During the teleconference, many contributions positively evaluated the activity of the ECI for the period 2013–2022, its contribution to the coordination of the communist parties in Europe and the joint study and elaboration of European and important international issues aimed at strengthening the struggle against the capitalist system, the EU, the bourgeois classes and their governments.

>At the same time, during the teleconference, the important ideological and political differences that have arisen over time and which have been aggravated since the outbreak of the war being waged between the USA-NATO-EU and capitalist Russia, which creates insurmountable obstacles for the continuation of the ECI, were assessed.

>Based on the above, it was decided that the activity and function of the ECI be concluded. We are sure that life itself and the development of the class struggle in many European countries throughout the European continent will make it necessary in the coming period to establish a new form of inter-party cooperation between the Communist and Workers’ Parties of Europe, which will make use of the useful experience gained in recent years from the activity of the ECI.

>OPENING SPEECH OF THE KKE AT THE LAST TELECONFERENCE OF THE PARTIES OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNIST INITIATIVE

>We would like to thank the parties participating in today’s necessary teleconference concerning the acute problems of the European Communist Initiative, which have led to the suspension of its action and undermine the continuation of its course.

>The European Communist Initiative was founded 10 years ago as a space for cooperation between Communist and Workers’ Parties in Europe and the wider region, based on an agreed framework and specific commitments.

>It has contributed to the exchange of views and substantive discussion on important ideological-political issues. It has organized interventions on a wide range of problems faced by the working class, the popular strata and the youth.

>The ECI has enriched its initial directions and acquired an important orientation:

>• Against capitalist barbarity, for the overthrow of the regime of exploitation of man by man and the construction of socialism, in support of the principles of socialist construction, taking into account the experience of the Soviet Union, its achievements and accomplishments as well as the problems it faced, the shortcomings, the mistakes that led to the counter-revolution, the overthrow of socialism and the restoration of capitalism.

>• Against imperialist war, for the elimination of its causes, inter-imperialist contradictions and competition.

>• Against the bourgeoisie in every capitalist state, the anti-popular policies of the bourgeois governments and parties, whether social-democratic or liberal ones.

>• Against the USA, NATO and the EU, and all kinds of imperialist alliances.

>• In the ideological-political struggle against the Party of the European Left (PEL) and opportunism in general.

>• In the struggle against anti-communism, in support of the CPs that are persecuted and struggle under conditions of illegality and all kinds of prohibitions.

>• In solidarity with the Cuban people, Cuba and the Communist Party of Cuba and the demand for an end to the blockade imposed by US imperialism, in condemnation of the interventions of the EU and any intervention in the internal affairs of Cuba.

>• In solidarity with the Palestinian people and all peoples.

>• In solidarity with uprooted immigrants and refugees and the defence of their rights, against racism and xenophobia.

>We evaluate positively the work carried out by the ECI for a long period of time before the strong disagreements over the imperialist war and other problems,which had a catalytic and negative impact on its course, arose within it.

>The Secretariat made efforts to coordinate the interventions of the ECI, to ensure its continuity, taking into account the different views expressed on various issues, the fact that the contribution of the parties was uneven, that some parties did not participate regularly and did not take part in the implementation of the actions.

>In this joint effort, the KKE has devoted considerable resources in order to establish, consolidate and develop the action of the ECI based on its founding declaration and the positions that it subsequently adopted.

>In the course of time, some parties retreated from the agreed framework of the ECI and strong disagreements were expressed.

>Some parties disputed the character of imperialism as monopoly capitalism, the highest stage of capitalism as defined by Leninist principles. Positions were expressed that limited imperialism to the USA and its foreign policy and disputed that each capitalist state participates in the imperialist system according to its economic, political and military power, in the context of uneven development.

>Disagreements were also expressed on the stance of the ECI towards the uprooted immigrants and refugees and some parties opposed the expression of support and solidarity.

>The problems were exacerbated after the outbreak of the war between the USA-NATO-EU and capitalist Russia and the unacceptable invasion of the Russian army on the territory of Ukraine.

>We underline that a significant number of parties of the Initiative condemned the invasion, rejected the pretexts used by the USA, NATO and the EU on the one hand and the Russian leadership on the other hand and pointed out that the war is being led and waged by the bourgeois classes and is therefore imperialist on both sides.

>In this context, they called upon the working class and the peoples to oppose the imperialist war and to continue the struggle based on their own independent interests against the involvement of their countries in the war, against the bourgeois classes and the anti-popular governments in the direction of overthrowing the bourgeois power.

>Parties of the Initiative were at the forefront of the International Communist Movement and dozens of Communist and Workers’ Parties from all over the world signed joint statements that they put forward, sending a hopeful message. Mass demonstrations were held against the USA, NATO, the EU and the imperialist war, for the disengagement of NATO member states from the war and the dangerous NATO plans in general.

>However, a number of Parties sided with capitalist Russia in the imperialist war. They justified and supported the Russian leadership and the invasion of the Ukrainian territory by claiming that this war is anti-fascist, opposing the position that the war is imperialist, expresses acute capitalist rivalries and is waged for the control of markets and wealth-producing resources, for energy and transport routes, leading the peoples to the slaughterhouse of war.

>In other words, in practice, certain parties have adopted positions that run counter to the agreed joint positions of the European Communist Initiative against the bourgeoisie and the imperialist war, creating conditions that have led to the obstruction of its action.

>Furthermore, some parties of the Initiative are attempting to present China as a socialist state, while capitalist relations of production have long prevailed in China and the exploitation of the working class and of man by man, which is the very definition of capitalism, is intensifying. Chinese monopolies are leading in the international market, exporting capital and commodities, while China and the USA are competing for supremacy in the capitalist system.

>Moreover, some parties of the European Communist Initiative participate in the so-called World Anti-Imperialist Platform, which supports Russia in the imperialist war and China in its competition with other imperialist centres. This creation engages in fabricated provocative attacks against some parties of the Initiative and especially against the KKE, while some parties of the Initiative post the provocative positions of the so-called anti-imperialist Platform on their websites.

>The disagreements that have arisen concern issues of strategic importance, which are becoming more acute.

>Under these circumstances, it is clear that the European Communist Initiative has practically ended its activity, cannot continue its function, and the question of its dissolution arises.

https://www.idcommunism.com/2023/09/blog-post.html?m=1

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 01:31:42 No.1596215

Judean people's front

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 02:13:49 No.1596236

>>1596212
take the pancake pill and stop putting your faith in parties.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 02:25:07 No.1596241

Dengoids and ziggers wreck everything

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 02:32:54 No.1596242

>>1596212
>10 year old communist initiative dissolved because they can't agree on what imperialism means

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 02:53:21 No.1596243

So many posters here guilty of what it is describing in latter half

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 03:21:32 No.1596253

>muh China
Uh, but most parties of INITIATIVE are affiliated IMCWP which the CPC is also a member of? Lmao.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 04:09:17 No.1596268

I hate it when people do not name names on which faction is which. I know that the KKE is very much supporting refugees and has a hard line against anti-Russian rhetoric and framing the war as one of Russian aggression,. That leaves the communist members in Hungary and Sweden as the anti-refugee faction. I am not sure who are the anti-Russian and anti-Chinese government parties are in this case.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 04:19:46 No.1596277

>>1596268
The KKE published this last year:

>Under these circumstances, the CPRF attempted to mislead the Russian people also regarding the positions of the KKE on the developments in Ukraine. The CPRF concealed the fact that the KKE from the very first moment denounced the Russian invasion of Ukraine, organized a rally from the Russian to the US Embassy in Athens, opposed both sides of the imperialist conflict calling upon the peoples to refuse to choose between “thieves”, and holds demonstrations against the rising maelstrom of the imperialist war with the continuing and deeper involvement of Greece and the transportation of deadly weapons to the area of conflict through it.

>On the contrary, the CPRF sought to utilize the mass rallies of the KKE to further manipulate the Russian people. Thus, G. Zyuganov reposted photographs of the rally of the KKE on social media, interpreting them as support to the so-called Russian world. Furthermore, in the message of solidarity sent by the CPRF against the arrests of KKE cadres and the suppression of the demonstration in Thessaloniki, an attempt is made to reproduce the CPRF’s position on the “all-out NATO war against Russia”, which seeks to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine. This message appeared in a bourgeois newspaper in our country, which tried to accuse the KKE of doublespeak and support for capitalist Russia.

>However, the fact that the popular rallies in our country take place outside military bases, camps, ports, and railway stations through which the US–NATO forces pass is related to the fact that our country is already part of one side of the conflict, that is, the US–NATO. We demand, therefore, the disentanglement of Greece from the war and the criminal plans of the Euro-Atlantic forces that target our people. This can not be interpreted as support for capitalist Russia, which we have equally condemned, in contrast to the CPRF and some other CPs that provide ideological and political coverage to the plans of the Russian bourgeoisie.
https://www.idcommunism.com/2022/05/kke-on-imperialist-war-in-ukraine-and-the-stance-of-the-cprf.html

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 05:29:13 No.1596302

>>1596212
Do these mf really need to know if a some war waged by two capitalist powers is imperialist or not to know if to oppose it

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 05:45:19 No.1596306

>>1596302
The problem is that "communist" parties such as the CPRF support the war

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 05:57:07 No.1596315

>>1596306
>The problem is that "communist" parties such as the CPRF support the war
I don't think they have much choice on that, NATO is going to want Russia out, one way or another. The problem IMO is that they support Putin and United Russia's approach to things.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 07:12:18 No.1596332

>>1596315
The CPRF is just controlled opposition for United Russia.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 07:16:30 No.1596333

>>1596215
Reactionary splitters from the people's front of Judea

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 08:34:59 No.1596357

>>1596212
Too pussies to just tell the "Communist" party of Russia to fuck off?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 08:36:57 No.1596358

We already know who will take the socdem attitude of taking sides and who will take the bolshevik attitude of revolutionary deafitism.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 08:39:14 No.1596360

File: 1694594354693.jpg (24.07 KB, 512x425, 60103642ed389ef50e31a8b29d….jpg)

The KKE can genuinely go suck a dick. What have they ever achieved and why does anyone care what these losers have to say?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 08:42:22 No.1596361

>>1596212
Based KKE

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 08:56:19 No.1596363

>>1596360
How many members does your book club have?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 09:00:20 No.1596364

File: 1694595620325.jpg (65.71 KB, 720x542, FB_IMG_1694595500893.jpg)

>>1596212

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 09:00:20 No.1596365

File: 1694595620771.jpeg (57.79 KB, 239x379, 934D1ED4-61AB-44B3-BE69-F….jpeg)

>>1596360
<why does anyone care what a Marxist political party has to say
>posts this on a dying Marxist image board where about half of the current base aren’t even Marxists
Oh the irony

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 09:16:16 No.1596371

>>1596212
The REAL COMMUNISTS strike again!

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 09:16:23 No.1596373

>>1596243
Yeah, what the fuck about it?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 09:26:10 No.1596378

The /ukraine/ thread took a dive but I just listened to this and it's pretty interesting. The reason why is because the subject is a queer feminist activist who spent a lot of time in Ukraine and she shits on the Ukrainian government (it's mostly about Ukraine), that it went into neoliberal shock therapy mode after Maidan that de-industrialized the country and left old people to die, which made Russian pensions (which are not great btw) look good in comparison.

She also divides the Ukrainian far right into two groups (there are more, but two main ones). The first are the traditional old-school Ukrainian ethnonationalists who wear folk costumes and care a lot about language and have actual influence in policy – which made life hard even more people who didn't even speak Ukrainian (or not well). The second group are the neo-Nazis, many of whom were recruited from the Russian-speaking areas and Russia. They don't have any real influence in politics, she says, and a lot of them were football hooligans and mob enforcers-for-hire and are just there for the violence and that's their role.

Buuuut the separatist areas after 2014-2015 are also fucked and the industries were taken over by Russian oligarchs, sold off, and then fired workers en masse which sparked strikes which were really dangerous because they didn't have any labor protections in this lawless zone. Also the separatists were attractive to men (not so much women) because they were a bunch of dudes with socially conservative views and guns wearing camouflage. But also the old people in these areas who got screwed by the post-Maidan government. And Maidan was a varied and large social movement made up of different groups who were radically at odds with each other, included people who just wanted to live in a safe, modern country instead of a fucked-up shithole. There were a lot of women too but they got pushed to the side by the angry rightards who told them to get back in the kitchen.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 11:50:33 No.1596422

>>1596212
The socialist left is just utterly unprepared for this emerging 'multipolar' world. In ten years the loudest voices are all gonna be social-patriots, as the unifying Main Adversary recedes and all the world's regional powers start squabbling for scarce capital, resources and labor.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 12:32:23 No.1596439

Russian nationalist ruin communist movement

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 12:42:43 No.1596445

>>1596364
>muh civilians
>muh war crimes
Liberalism incarnate. Did you discover "Marxism" a week ago?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 12:49:32 No.1596446

>>1596445
It also completely ignores that the Nazi occupational government in collaboration with NATO spent 8 years engaged in genocide against the native Russian population with atrocities that include constant bombardment of eastern regions where Russian identity was strongest. But of course “war crimes” against the Asiatic hordes don’t count

As for this little screed, the “communist” parties of Greece have always been in bed with liberalism and Trotskyite ideology, the “neither Washington nor Moscow” position here being just another manifestation of that tendency. Ultras love to cry and holler about mean ol’ Stalin not helping the Greek communists, but had he done so it would have almost immediately gone down the path of counterrevolution, think Yugoslavia except more accepting of Trotskyite terror cells

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 12:57:16 No.1596447

>>1596422
Always has been. The social-patriots where always the popular faction even in Lenin's time, and it didn't stop the bolsheviks from throwing a revolution

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:00:27 No.1596448

>>1596302
This. If pro-Russian and neutral communists agree that NATO is imperialist and that its participation in the war should be opposed, then the question of whether Russia is imperialist is essentially moot for virtually everybody outside of Russia and Ukraine. Whether you support Russia or not, the position of communists in NATO countries is the same: revolutionary defeatism. This issue is really only relevant to Russian and Ukrainian communists, since for them their position the issue of supposed Russian imperialism actually makes a difference in their policy.
>>1596306
Who tf cares? Why is it the job of communists to police the positions of parties in foreign countries? What difference does it make to the KKE whether Russian communists support the war? This is for practical purposes a purely ideological disagreement with little significance for the praxis of either group. These kinds of splits only make sense when the views of two parties cause their actions to be mutually exclusive, and this is not the case when the KKE opposes NATO and the CPRF supports Russia.
>>1596360
>What have they ever achieved
Driving out the Nazis was a pretty noteworthy accomplishment I would say. A lot more than the CPRF has ever achieved that's for sure.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:03:09 No.1596450

>>1596446
>the “neither Washington nor Moscow” position here being just another manifestation of that tendency
The KKE was staunchly pro-Soviet all throughout the Cold War. They remained so even after the Soviets cut off aid.
>but had he done so it would have almost immediately gone down the path of counterrevolution, think Yugoslavia except more accepting of Trotskyite terror cells
Except the KKE explicitly sided with the USSR against Yugoslavia, even after the former cut off aid against the wishes of the latter. Stop talking out of your ass.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:03:32 No.1596451

>>1596445
>only liberals think those are bad
What reality do you live in you fuckin retard? You guys try so hard to connect multipolarity to military operations when it's just one facet. If this is just about vicariously living out your NATO-Warsaw Pact war scenarios you can just stick to vidya games.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:06:15 No.1596452

>>1596451
>only liberals think those are bad
Allowing the existence of war crimes to determine who you support in a conflict is 100% a sign of liberal/idealist thinking. Virtually all wars include war crimes by both sides. Are you just going to remain neutral in every conflict? Whether or not a country commits war crimes has zero bearing on whether or not it's imperialist, and zero bearing on what the best outcome is from a communist perspective.

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:08:03 No.1596453

File: 1694610483450.jpg (66.16 KB, 800x450, covergn.jpg)

>>1596445
> Marxism is ok with war-crimes akshually

MY EYES

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:10:14 No.1596454

>>1596452
> Are you just going to remain neutral in every conflict?

Between capitalist countries who already have gone through their national liberation phase? Ye

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:11:38 No.1596455

>>1596454
If you are going to stay neutral then it should be for better reasons than war crimes.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:15:49 No.1596456

>>1596454
Russia is going through national liberation right now. This isn't an inter imperialist war Marxism has seen before, at least. That's why the KKE statement has to focus on the baser levels that Russia and the West overlap on, like having capitalism, to repudiate both. You have to relate national features instead of looking at a global system. That's fine I guess, they don't want to support any part of it. But a crisis of that global system and its fallout are subsequently very uneven, and we can see the crisis is driving war with Russia and China or other semi periphery after a failed campaign against truly third world nations.

Also yea, that pic is cope. Human rights and oligarchy is not a description of global class relations, Russia remains a dependent semi colony. The author is just sad that a country like Russia due to this global place is anti-imperialist thanks to how reactionary the West and liberalism has become under unipolarity.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:21:40 No.1596461

lol
who

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:23:44 No.1596462

>>1595712
>>1595379
this is surreal, is this the power of the great firewall? you get effort posters on fucking news sites. you cant even get posting of that caliber on communities dedicated to quote unquote analyzing news events ala reddit.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:26:21 No.1596463

>>1596144
I wouldn't as go far as to say Russia is still a wholly Western or European nation, though. It's definitely a unique case and an in-betweener. I'm no Duginist so don't assume I'm defending him or anything.

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:31:04 No.1596464

>>1596456
My dude Russia has an exceptionally high concentration of capital that it regularly exports. Unless you redifine "semi-colony" as "not the top dog" I'm afraid Russia is a center of capital, albeit not western. https://youtu.be/-Sc6iZh6rCk

Also, capitalist contries using people of their same ethnic group as pawns to justify invasion and war is nothing new, Italy pulled a similar stunt already in WWI

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:43:44 No.1596467

>>1596364
Wow, good meme, comrade. Mind sharing which facebook group you got it from? Personal favorite of mine is the group "Socialism". Check it out if you want more.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:48:29 No.1596468

>>1596332
2nd international moment.
Kautskyist party russian federation
for the defense of the fatherland

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:48:35 No.1596469

>>1596456
>Russia is going through national liberation right now.
Imagine unironically believing this

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:49:02 No.1596470

>>1596464
Russian concentration of capital within itself is frankly irrelevant. Russia had a failed liberalization process and promotes national industry, which is in bed with the state. Far from representing a period of national competition turning into international monopoly, it's stuck using the state to progress through the former stage.

It doesn't export squat for capital and is widely acknowledged by everyone as a resource extraction colony heavily dependent on energy exports. Nobody disputes this until Russia came in conflict with the West.

Basically there's no evidence Russia has any relation to finance and high value production except being on the wrong side of it and providing energy for those economies. We can infer from there that Russia isn't involved in the export of capital and seeking new markets, it is the new market and it is trying to find a place in the global economy with other middle income countries, none of which are imperialist

I do not get how we are simultaneously discussing Russia as a frozen Nigeria with a Florida GDP and then turning around and concluding it's imperialist if you flatten analysis of national capitalism in advanced states 100+ years ago

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:52:17 No.1596472

>>1596469
It's not hard at all. Russia was clearly meant to be a resource extraction colony for European imperialism. That was a key pillar for the Western strategy of globalization and it's why Germany is now having economic problems. This war is ultimately about post Soviet transitions being reneged on, including in Ukraine and Belarus.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:52:59 No.1596474

>>1595366
>Explain why South Africa is relevant.
It's a moderately prosperous country of 60 million. That's quite relevant.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:55:49 No.1596475

>>1596446
>As for this little screed, the “communist” parties of Greece have always been in bed with liberalism and Trotskyite ideology, the “neither Washington nor Moscow” position here being just another manifestation of that tendency.
Thats right. The incessant whining from retards like these: >>1596365 >>1596448 >>1596450 about "muh KKE is still marxist and achieved something and fought nazis" is pathetic and uncritical dickriding, thinking the same people who fought the nazis still run the party today 💀. Never mind the fact that the KKE has incompetent theory, the KKE is an increasingly negative influence for the international communist movement. They have no consistent view on imperialism and the national question. Some would say it's still more respectable than the entirety of bourgeois apparatus in Greece, yet I would disagree seeing how they abandoned their principles to Russophobia and social-fascism, destroying their own party in the last half-decade. The following says all that needs to be said about the KKE:
<How the KKE uses Marxist terminology to cover its retreat from Marxism
https://waporgan.org/?p=2647

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 13:58:44 No.1596478

>>1596472
Only for French and German industry, you're insane if you think the US and Anglos ever wanted Russia to be a resource extraction center which directly competes with the petrodollar system. This is the Russian fear being projected onto Anglo American designs when the latter would rather nuke Moscow than let them become tied to the prosperity of the EU.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:01:50 No.1596480

>>1596478
>Only for French and German industry, you're insane if you think the US and Anglos ever wanted Russia to be a resource extraction center

The unipolar power assigns dependents to its vassals. Chomsky covers this. Whether the Anglosphere wanted Russian energy is irrelevant because in both the middle east and former USSR it's looking to enforce European energy interests.

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:07:04 No.1596483

>>1596470

> Russian concentration of capital within itself is frankly irrelevant. Russia had a failed liberalization process and promotes national industry, which is in bed with the state. Far from representing a period of national competition turning into international monopoly, it's stuck using the state to progress through the former stage.

Which posits the question: was fascist italy non-imperialist?
Sure, russian capital is in bed with the state, the issue at hand it's that such a thing is the case in the overwelming majority of capitalist countries.

> It doesn't export squat for capital and is widely acknowledged by everyone as a resource extraction colony heavily dependent on energy exports.
> Nobody disputes this until Russia came in conflict with the West.

Everyone and nobody being who?

> Basically there's no evidence Russia has any relation to finance and high value production except being on the wrong side of it and providing energy for those economies. We can infer from there that Russia isn't involved in the export of capital and seeking new markets, it is the new market and it is trying to find a place in the global economy with other middle income countries, none of which are imperialist

The thing you said has no evidence is literally what the video I linked shows is happening.

> I do not get how we are simultaneously discussing Russia as a frozen Nigeria with a Florida GDP and then turning around and concluding it's imperialist if you flatten analysis of national capitalism in advanced states 100+ years ago

Capitalist imperialism isn't when a country is rich, and mind you Florida lists quite above the global avarage

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:10:12 No.1596484

>>1596456
Zigga

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:11:24 No.1596485

>>1596448
>then the question of whether Russia is imperialist is essentially moot for virtually everybody outside of Russia and Ukraine
You wasted hundreds of posts on trying to prove that Russia isn't imperialist. This is an obvious cope.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:11:58 No.1596486

>>1596445
>Criticises moralism
>Invokes moralism to justify Russia onvading Ukraine

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:18:20 No.1596487

>>1596445
It's worse they're illiterate / anarchists

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:20:11 No.1596488

>>1596483
>Which posits the question: was fascist italy non-imperialist?
No. Italy had a bourgeois revolution and united before capitalism became a world system. The north of Italy is part of the historical core of rising capitalism along with the northwest of Europe
>The thing you said has no evidence is literally what the video I linked shows is happening.
Gonna need you to share it for me fam I don't wanna watch a video
>Capitalist imperialism isn't when a country is rich
It is very strongly correlated
>>1596484
>Zigga
I am a zigger. I think the absence of international revolution and inter imperialist war temporarily means the ruling class has antagonisms with nations which in turn have the antagonism with the ruling class.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:26:04 No.1596489

>>1596488
The absence of international revolution is literally the vast, vast majority of human history. You're basically saying that you can never do anything 99.9999% of the time except cheerlead for a lesser evil power. You are a radlib.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:30:14 No.1596492

File: 1694615414403.jpg (44.84 KB, 1080x608, b171a3df5ea3d1087bf25e0494….jpg)

>>1596489
>LE GOOD LE EVIL
Paying my jak share tax today

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:38:55 No.1596495

>>1596464
>My dude Russia has an exceptionally high concentration of capital that it regularly exports
The Soviet state also had an exceptionally high concentration of capital. High concentration of production of capital is true for any state today as well, rendering this meaningless when defining imperialism. Western monopolies dominate the lives of billions of people around the world. On the other hand, there are no significant Russian monopolies or investment capital institutions outside of the Russian sphere. Russia for its part is not an imperialist power, in the case of Russia, all of it's geopolitical designs have the quality of not only geographic contiguity, but civilizational and cultural contiguity. There is an objective Russian world, not defined by the dominance of any Russian ethnicity or even russian-speaking peoples, but by a multi-ethnic civilization defined by determinate interactions between different peoples, united by a common civilization and identity where everyone is equal before the law, so on and so forth. This has nothing to do with imperialism whatsoever except in liberal mental gymnasiums.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:43:46 No.1596497

>>1596489
What I mean is there was no international revolution due to imperialism, and inter imperialist war didn't collapse capitalism instead. The result is we went back to colonialism as a contradiction. Therefore I support the national bourgeoisie of the periphery because I know national exploitation is used to not only suppress class struggle, but inter imperialist antagonism.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:44:11 No.1596498

>>1596492
All of those states on the right are nominally communist or were working towards such a goal. You cannot say the same for United Russia's basketcase of a ruling class. As long as Sergei Shoigu types are in power, nothing will change for the better. It's like expecting Japanese militarists or ISIS fuckers to do anything positive other than stick a wrench or two into the machinery of imperialism.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:50:13 No.1596500

File: 1694616613477.gif (2.98 MB, 498x365, sameasiteverwas.gif)

>opportunist wreckers be wrecking shit
>thread quickly fills up with opportunist retards defending this bullshit
you love to see it

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 14:58:47 No.1596502

Putin: sending Soviet tanks into Hungary and Czechoslovakia was a mistake

VLADIVOSTOK, Russia, Sept 12 (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that the Soviet Union's decision to send tanks into Hungary and Czechoslovakia to crush mass protests during the Cold War was a mistake.

"It was a mistake," Putin said when asked about perceptions of Russia as a colonial power due to Moscow's decision to send tanks into Budapest in 1956 and into Prague in 1968.

"It is not right to do anything in foreign policy that harms the interests of other peoples," said Putin, who in 2022 sent tens of thousands of troops into Ukraine, triggering the biggest land war in Europe since World War Two.

Putin said the United States was making the same mistakes as the Soviet Union. He said Washington had "no friends, only interests".

The 1956 Hungarian Uprising was crushed by Soviet tanks and troops. At least 2,600 Hungarians and 600 Soviet troops were killed in the fighting.

The 1968 Prague Spring was ended when Soviet-led Warsaw Pact forces invaded the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic. Around 137 Czechs and Slovaks died as a result of the invasion, according to Czech historians.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-sending-soviet-tanks-into-hungary-czechoslovakia-was-mistake-2023-09-12/

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:03:46 No.1596503

File: 1694617426873.png (144.42 KB, 457x572, 28e01dd6fee68042e002c1941e….png)

it's funny how this reveals the discussion in the ECI is not dissimilar to the ones we have here on /leftypol/. I find it comfy
>certain parties
to not openly name individuals who have committed mistakes is a form of liberalism
>Chyna!
the ECI could have avoided this embarrassment by reading the Deng elderscroll
>>1596268
>That leaves the communist members in Hungary and Sweden as the anti-refugee faction
keep in mind Sweden has two communist parties: K and SKP. the latter is practically non-existent but are the party that was involved in the ECI. K has expressed some mildly national chauvinist stuff, if Norwegian Maoists are to be believed

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:03:53 No.1596504

>>1596498
>All of those states on the right are nominally communist or were working towards such a goal. You cannot say the same for United Russia's basketcase of a ruling class. As long as Sergei Shoigu types are in power, nothing will change for the better. It's like expecting Japanese militarists or ISIS fuckers to do anything positive other than stick a wrench or two into the machinery of imperialism.
Communism isn't a "goal", that's not what scientific socialism is based on. Communism is a means to a goal, such means are shared between communists and with Russia at this time, even if we have different goals.
Some people on this board, ultras and maoists of the first-world variety, think every communist movement should be waging a life and death armed struggle against whatever ruling government exists in any given country. This is actually stupid nonsense, promoted by people who have no real concern for the people of the world struggling against imperialism. They spit pseudo-militant lines as a form of 'revolutionary' posturing and nothing more; they think the people of the backward nations have the same class interests as "Americans" do.

The overall strategic view should be like how the Soviets understood the Spanish civil war, except instead of Spain it is the entire world, and instead of the forces behind Franco, it should be the financial bourgeoise behind "western" imperialism ("western" is redundant here, but I am including it because many still think there exists an absurdity like "eastern imperialism"). The communists in the Spanish civil war mobilized as broadly as they could; they were not the largest forces, but most often, they were the most dedicated and militant.

Anyone willing to fight the international financial bourgeoise and their comprador lackeys should be seen as a potential ally in the war against imperialism. In many places, this will mean the communists are in a subordinate position to some other anti-imperialist forces. This is fine, so long as those forces are dedicated to opposing "western" imperialism, they should not be struggled against. The activity of communist groups in these regions should be focused on building up their power within the labor movement, and figuring out how to better influence the powers in charge to do the things they want them to do.

At some point in the future, the governments in charge may decide to flip on the struggle against imperialism. Only then should the communists treat them in a hostile way, and begin organizing for their overthrow. As of Russia right now, they haven't flipped on the struggle against imperialism, therefore principled communists are working alongside them. Russia has its issues, yet ultras have this incessant need to reflexively shit on them. They want to hear a denunciation of Putin and Russia followed by a meek, "but we critically support", and some don't even want to hear "but we critically support".
What other country has seen such a relentless assault on it from NATO, to propaganda/disinformation, to sanctions, to economic turmoil? It's up there with China and the DPRK as far as how bad the imperialists want it to be a vassal state. I get so tired of this same game

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:12:50 No.1596507

>>1596504
>This is actually stupid nonsense, promoted by people who have no real concern for the people of the world struggling against imperialism
Bull fucking shit. This new crop of self described multipolaristas are precisely the ones who need to condemn peoples outside of the West to an eternal conflict against NATO while not lifting a single finger themselves. You need them to be your foot soldiers. Don't you ever fucking dare to speak for anyone else.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:15:04 No.1596509

>>1596507
This is cope. We don't have to do anything but watch nations assert their interests, who are glad to do so. It's not a sacrifice for western leftists, that's what radlibs demand for the sake of global democracy

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:16:13 No.1596510

>>1596507
>condemn peoples outside of the West
ask those outside the west maybe? They don't see anything equivalent to the bombs and economic warfare that keeps them impoverished.
As an aside, I googled this European Communist Initiative and they are all irrelevant euro parties.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:19:11 No.1596511

>>1596495
>There is an objective Russian world, not defined by the dominance of any Russian ethnicity or even russian-speaking peoples, but by a multi-ethnic civilization defined by determinate interactions between different peoples, united by a common civilization and identity where everyone is equal before the law, so on and so forth.
The "objective Russian world" is more of a meaningless assortment of lowest common denominators and "equal before the law" borderlines bait.

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:27:35 No.1596514

> The Soviet state also had an exceptionally high concentration of capital. High concentration of production of capital is true for any state today as well, rendering this meaningless when defining imperialism.

> On the other hand, there are no significant Russian monopolies or investment capital institutions outside of the Russian sphere.

> Russian sphere.

> Russia for its part is not an imperialist power, in the case of Russia, all of it's geopolitical designs have the quality of not only geographic contiguity, but civilizational and cultural contiguity.

> There is an objective Russian world, not defined by the dominance of any Russian ethnicity or even russian-speaking peoples, but by a multi-ethnic civilization defined by determinate interactions between different peoples, united by a common civilization and identity where everyone is equal before the law, so on and so forth. This has nothing to do with imperialism whatsoever except in liberal mental gymnasiums.

> Communism is a means to a goal, such means are shared between communists and with Russia at this time, even if we have different goals.

> many still think there exists an absurdity like "eastern imperialism"

> Anyone willing to fight the international financial bourgeoise and their comprador lackeys should be seen as a potential ally in the war against imperialism. In many places, this will mean the communists are in a subordinate position to some other anti-imperialist forces. This is fine, so long as those forces are dedicated to opposing "western" imperialism, they should not be struggled against.

> At some point in the future, the governments in charge may decide to flip on the struggle against imperialism. Only then should the communists treat them in a hostile way, and begin organizing for their overthrow.

> We don't have to do anything but watch nations assert their interests, who are glad to do so. It's not a sacrifice for western leftists, that's what radlibs demand for the sake of global democracy

Third worldism with a mix of social collaborationist fascism. The most principled multipolarista I see

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:29:53 No.1596515

>>1596511
>meaningless assortment
No, it's not meaningless because it's different from a unilateral system that's going to try to enforce "global fairness", "international law" and "universal human rights" based on the dominance of one world police. It's not what the Russian world is about because that's an impossible scenario and it's an impossible thing to maintain as shown by the decay of the American empire right before our eyes. Russia does not eliminate and trample upon the sovereignty of surrounding neighbors. There is legal contiguity through bilateral relationships, trade treaties, border agreements, so on and so forth. That is the primary mechanism by which regional geographic polarities assert themselves globally. This is true for Russia, and this is also true for China.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:31:38 No.1596516

>>1596514
<Third worldism with a mix of social collaborationist fascism. The most principled multipolarista I see
Nooo you can't support the semi colonial buffer state of the world noooo

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:32:57 No.1596518

>>1596511

That's just judeo-christian/white civilitazation stuff repacked for russia tbh

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:39:16 No.1596520

Oh right

> many still think there exists an absurdity like "eastern imperialism"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/west-papua-forgotten-war-unwanted-people

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:40:21 No.1596521

inb4 someone declares Japan as a Western nation

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:43:39 No.1596522

>>1596521
it's not western stricto sensu but completely in the western sphere, yes

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:47:05 No.1596524

>>1596515
>No, it's not meaningless because it's different from a unilateral system that's going to try to enforce "global fairness", "international law" and "universal human rights" based on the dominance of one world police. It's not what the Russian world is about because that's an impossible scenario and it's an impossible thing to maintain as shown by the decay of the American empire right before our eyes.
Russia declared itself as the regional police to defend Russians. The difference breaks down to scale.

>Russia does not eliminate and trample upon the sovereignty of surrounding neighbors. There is legal contiguity through bilateral relationships, trade treaties, border agreements, so on and so forth. That is the primary mechanism by which regional geographic polarities assert themselves globally. This is true for Russia, and this is also true for China.
Russia disputes sovereignty of surrounding neighbors by declarating them as parts of their ill-defined Russian world. Every evidently imperialist nation holds bilateral treaties and trade relationships with regional neighbors.
If you wish, you can deny trade between the US and Canada or France and Germany now.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:48:12 No.1596525

>>1596514
>Third worldism with a mix of social collaborationist fascism. The most principled multipolarista I see
You can make an argument anytime. I do not agree entirely with third-worldists, yet their line on this matter is pretty much the same.

>>1596507
The real masses in imperialist countries are not exploited at all, they consume more than they produce. Why would they rebel against such system? The labour aristocrats, which compose majority of workers in imperialist nations, do not hold the same class interests with the global proletariat. The labor aristocratic majority of any given imperialist country are just as covetous as the imperialists themselves given that their interests are the very same.

Factoring in that these are service workers, mostly of the labor aristocracy or intelligentsia, the very nature of their work means that they will be overcompensated. It should be noted that while certain essential services are required for society as a whole, it does not change that they do not account for production. Whatever payment a labor aristocrat achieves is always going to be garnished from the workers of the global proletariat. While it may seem unnecessary to point this out to anyone with even a little sense, the entirety of "the left" in any imperialist country is a complete joke until they finally come to terms with this.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:50:22 No.1596527

>>1596521
Actually America is also eastern because the "west" ends at the western part of the old world. Never mind the Bretton Woods imperialist system of which Japan was a part, no need for materialist analysis, everything beyond muh imaginary line is east, and everything behind that is west. See I can be an incessant pedant too. Fucking idiot.

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:50:27 No.1596528

>>1596525
> The real masses in imperialist countries are not exploited at all

Mf hasn't touched grass in the last 10 to 30 years at least

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:50:50 No.1596529

Ziggas will jump through any numbers of hoops to defend Russia.
Most of them are obviously just Putinists LARPing as multipolaristas, communists, or nationalists, depending on the audience.
The underlying reasoning is just to rally support for Russia, no more means to a greater end.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:51:26 No.1596530

>>1596521
Japan Westernized. It's actually one of the original examples of this.
'Eastern imperialism' is just a post hoc revision to explain the decline of imperialism by suggesting exploited nations are imperialist because they're great nations.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:52:55 No.1596531

>>1596530
Or "they will do to us what we did to them". Which is fine, chauvinists being scared is fine.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:54:44 No.1596532

File: 1694620484023.png (243.33 KB, 680x709, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1596529
>The underlying reasoning is just to rally support for Russia
<The unquestionably revolutionary character of the vast majority of national movements is as relative and peculiar as is the possible revolutionary character of certain particular national movements. The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the existence of a democratic basis of the movement. The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism."
<The Foundations of Leninism
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/foundations-leninism/ch06.htm

While anti-imperialism is not necessarily synonymous with the communist revolution, alliance with national bourgeoisie elements is also useful, and can be more useful than an alliance with the modern "left", modern in a colloquial sense, who may already be allied with the bourgeoisie.

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:56:21 No.1596533

>>1596531
> Mf doesn't understand it's the relationship with the means of production, thinks there exists good capitalism which behaves differently because eastern magic, with eastern being whatever isn't on the top right now

Ultimate retardation

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:57:07 No.1596534

>>1596527
>>1596522
>>1596530
So Japan westernized before or after occupying Manchuria?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:58:16 No.1596535

>>1596534
non sequitur

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 15:59:46 No.1596536

>>1596532
> Mf equates Afgan Emir of broke ass country with developed capitalists nations with monopolies and capital export

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:00:01 No.1596537

>>1596534
When Nobunaga started mass producing guns

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:00:36 No.1596538

>>1596533
I just enjoy chauvinists being scared

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:02:03 No.1596540

>>1596534
Japan didn't show any eastern magic when it developed, which makes it bad and hence western

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:04:01 No.1596541

>>1596531
>Or "they will do to us what we did to them". Which is fine, chauvinists being scared is fine.
Exactly. And I enjoy them being scared. Here's a textbook example of one of them being scared: >>1596533. But we must ask the question, why are they scared?

Because they know that Russia by its anti-imperialist stances poses a threat to their own labor aristocratic super-consumption. These people, in fact, hate the proletariat of the world, and this is why they deflect with "everyone should be waging a life and death armed struggle against whatever ruling government exists in any given country" and similar stupid nonsense. Of course, by this they mean they want the actually exploited proletarians of the imperialized nations like Russia to wage war against their own state right now as it's under imperialist attack, which will only lead to Russia's complete subjugation by the imperialists and a repeat of the 90s but without the mistakes made at the time (meaning next time, for example, privatization of all banking).

As proved in the multipolarity thread, once they are confronted with reality about the actual stances of the Bolsheviks, they shrug off and start insulting without ever addressing these facts. They don't really care about scientific socialism, China, or the DPRK. They care about China and the DPRK because of their aesthetics. The actual lines of China and the DPRK are lines that these people hate, and it becomes evident once you talk to them for too long.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:06:16 No.1596542

>>1596485
lmao sabocat at the start of the war had the position that russia was imperialist and spent hundred of posts arguing about it with intbriganon and others who pulled out various hard data and theory to eventually convince him it wasnt the case.
but the important part, and that was widely agreed upon, was that the war definitely wasnt about economic gains for russia but security concerns which would have been identicals for a socialist or even feudal state, which given how russian lib porkies disapproved the war should be obvious

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:06:18 No.1596543

>>1596538
> Akshually when they do it is right because we did it first

Well then, I guess if the east-west just switch sides of imperial power and imperialized we're going to have the same discussion, switch sides again after some time and so on and so on

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:06:39 No.1596544

>>1596543
poor little white boy

Moth 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:13:34 No.1596547

>>1596541
Because they know that Russia by its anti-imperialist stances
> their own labor aristocratic super-consumption.

I honestly don't know which is funnier

> These people, in fact, hate the proletariat of the world

Projection spotted

> they deflect with "everyone should be waging a life and death armed struggle against whatever ruling government exists in any given country" and similar stupid nonsense.

Last time I checked the objective is to develop humanity to a higher stage of development, communism that is, not just playing morals about which country is righteous while compleately ignoring class struggle and spouting class collaborationist nonsense.

> Of course, by this they mean they want the actually exploited proletarians of the imperialized nations like Russia to wage war against their own state right now as it's under imperialist attack

See 1918

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:16:43 No.1596549

>>1596532
Congrats for turning once valid theory into the next "Q Anon said…"

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:20:30 No.1596551

File: 1694622030515.jpg (82.33 KB, 672x474, what did I expect.jpg)

>westoid trots

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:27:23 No.1596555

>>1596536
>> Mf equates Afgan Emir of broke ass country with developed capitalists nations with monopolies and capital export
More "Russia is imperialist" nonsense that has already been shredded 100 times. Completely dishonest, stuck-up and out of touch with the common man. Stuff like this is why communism has been thoroughly discredited in the eyes of the people. And misinterpreting Lenin on purpose while they are at it. Is this some sort of intelligence op to make socialism undistinguishable from social fascism?

>(1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life;
As said before: The Soviet state also had an exceptionally high concentration of capital. High concentration of production of capital is true for any state today as well, rendering this meaningless when defining imperialism. Western monopolies dominate the lives of billions of people around the world. On the other hand, there are no significant Russian monopolies or investment capital institutions outside of the Russian sphere.
>(2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy;
The Soviet state did this at the beginning stage of it's existence, obviously however, there was no financial oligarchy created in the Soviet Union, just like today Russia's richest capitalists are involved predominantly in industry not finance; only one of the world’s top 100 banks is Russian, the state-owned Sberbank. The oligarchy in today's Russia emerged from swallowing up socialistic state enterprises. In no way can any of this be compared with the western financial capitalist system of imperialism.
>(3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance;
This is another key point for why Russia is not imperialist. Export of capital would need to be primary mode of economy, which it isn't. The Soviet Union also exported capital. Every modern country exports capital so this is also superfluous. Therefore, the export of capital doesn't necessarily entail imperialism today. Russia mostly exports raw materials and natural resources, and imports capital instead. If anything, they could be imperialised, not imperialist. They were imperialised in the 90s, until Putin stopped it. When they were comprador to the West under Yeltsin, CPRF was strongly against it, and almost won the '96 election. Many even say Yeltsin stole that election from Zyganov.
>(4) the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves
Such cartels still exist today and they are spearheaded by America and it's western liberal states. They do not include Russia, as stated in (1), Russian monopolies are not significant, no need to waste energy at this time.
>(5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed.
He wrote that in 1917, the world looks different now. Today's Russia is not a party to the division and does not reap such spoils of imperialist domination and war. If it was truly imperialist they would have annexed all the former Central Asian Soviet republics. Russia's main "crime" is to come to the defence of those fighting off imperialist attack (Syria, eastern Ukraine) and to try to keep its own territory free of imperialist domination and superexploitation.

The actual answer to the question: "Who benefits by falsely labelling Russia as ‘imperialist’?"
https://thecommunists.org/2022/04/11/news/theory/who-benefits-falsely-labelling-russia-imperialist-ukraine-war/
https://mronline.org/2019/01/02/is-russia-imperialist/

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:37:02 No.1596563

>>1596549
Kremlinanon

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:39:08 No.1596564

>>1596253
INITIATIVE is/was heavily dominated by the KKE (actual autists). They think China is imperialist and take a "muh both sides" stance on the Ukraine war.

>>1596241
In 99% of the cases, it's "anti-revisionists" who wreck shit.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:47:53 No.1596567

>>1596546
Or take Cuba's stance for example. Cuba is usually more "acceptable" for reference when talking to leftoids.

But some westernoid cult party polling at 0,5% surely knows better.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 16:51:05 No.1596569

Here is the page for this and it list the parties involved

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiative_of_Communist_and_Workers%27_Parties

https://www.initiative-cwpe.org/en/participating-parties/

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 17:11:06 No.1596578

>>1596542
>but the important part, and that was widely agreed upon, was that the war definitely wasnt about economic gains for russia but security concerns which would have been identicals for a socialist or even feudal state, which given how russian lib porkies disapproved the war should be obvious
The war is about restoring an injured nationalistic ego. If security was a concern, they wouldn't have constantly LARPed about Novorossyia and actually done something that is adequate to restore or increase security for Russia and Russians.
The Russian army hasn't even touched many of the positions that shelled Donezk for eight years, but already came to and retreated from the outskirts of fucking Mykolaiv.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 17:16:06 No.1596583

>>1596485
I haven't argued for Russia being imperialist in like a year, IntBrig changed my mind. Keep up.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 17:20:39 No.1596588

>>1596564
>INITIATIVE is/was heavily dominated by the KKE (actual autists). They think China is imperialist and take a "muh both sides" stance on the Ukraine war.
Tbh if you're in the core it is easier to get political independence via both sides-ism

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 17:31:38 No.1596594

>>1596578
>this is a war for nationalist egoism
Yes global capitalism produced a war for entirely idealist reasons, not a crisis and war it created via its expansion and contraction

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 17:42:45 No.1596604

>>1596358
yeah but socdems on this site will larp as bolshleviks if called out lmao

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 17:45:53 No.1596606

>>1596588
I wouldn't consider Greece to be part of the core tbh.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 18:12:02 No.1596623

>>1596358
Revolutionary defeatism concerned imperial/colonial empires. Whether Russia is imperialist is, as you can see, sharply debated.

Lenin also wrote that the Roman Empire was "imperialist" but not in a capitalist way. Form =/= content.

Also, what differentiates multipolarity from WWI is that the global south is not colonized anymore and multiple civilizations (China, India, Africa, etc.) now play a role. I would post this in the multipolarity thread but it's filled with trolling /isg/ cucks.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 19:50:48 No.1596642

>>1596606
Why? Because EU, high on its own ideology, let Greece in, despite it not meeting the conditions, and none of the "liberal prosperity" turned out to be true?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 19:52:32 No.1596644

>>1596642
>Why?
Because it's poor as shit and has no representation among global monopolies. If Russia isn't imperialist than neither is Greece, its firmly semi-periphery.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 19:53:11 No.1596646

>>1596606
Yea it's not but since it's in the EU anyway I'm guessing it's still easier to preserve political independence from local states via both sides ism

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 19:58:31 No.1596649

>>1596644
In which case, they deserve even harsher treatment, because everything is directly their own fault and self-inflicted, when they willingly joined the EU. What a worthless pile of garbage SYRIZA was.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 20:05:25 No.1596651

>>1596649
You're aware of the concept of a comprador bourgeoisie right? By that logic all victims of neo-colonialism are to blame for their own condition.
>>1596646
Something nobody seems to consider amidst all the blind rage in these debates is the simple issue of the practical interests of the parties involved. Obviously we shouldn't take say, Cuba's endorsement of the Russian position in the war as the pure unadulterated real communist (tm) take on the issue. Cuba has a set of interests, it has trade and diplomatic relations to maintain, and obviously it can't afford to take positions based on pure principle, nor should we expect them to. But that applies to communist parties in opposition as well. If they're in a NATO country where there is a political space for opposition to NATO but not support for Russia, it would be retarded for them to damage their political standing and adopt a pro-Russian position, since that makes zero difference in relation to their actual internationalist duty of revolutionary defeatism.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 20:16:45 No.1596655

>>1596448
>What difference does it make to the KKE whether Russian communists support the war?
Enough of a difference to break relations down and splits to occur. I dunno. Didn't the same thing happen in WWI? Lenin openly broke with the International and the German Social Democratic Party which was then led by Karl Kautsky because they supported the war.

>>1596510
>As an aside, I googled this European Communist Initiative and they are all irrelevant euro parties.
It was probably set up by the KKE to begin with. There's some interesting politics if you follow it a little bit. For example, the CPUSA had become alienated from KKE and the latter supported a small splitter group called the PCUSA, but now the PCUSA tied up in this pro-Russia tendency that the KKE doesn't like so that's probably ogre. The "In Defense of Communism" website is a clearinghouse for pro-KKE content.

>>1596515
>It's not what the Russian world is about because that's an impossible scenario and it's an impossible thing to maintain as shown by the decay of the American empire right before our eyes … This is true for Russia, and this is also true for China.
You don't hear Chinese saying the "Chinese world." China is part of the world. You hear a "community with a shared future for mankind." More concretely than means playing an active role in diplomatic mediation (such as between Saudi Arabia and Iran), and maintaining strict neutrality between Russia and Ukraine. What Russia wants is a return to an older world based on dividing up the world in spheres of influence. It's a form of great power hegemonism.

>Russia does not eliminate and trample upon the sovereignty of surrounding neighbors.
Bullshit.

>>1596651
>Obviously we shouldn't take say, Cuba's endorsement of the Russian position in the war as the pure unadulterated real communist (tm) take on the issue.
Cuba is neutral.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 20:21:58 No.1596659

>>1596504
>Communism isn't a "goal", that's not what scientific socialism is based on. Communism is a means to a goal
it's both

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 20:22:04 No.1596660

File: 1694636524805.gif (204.08 KB, 404x416, 1364908077601.gif)

>>1596651
Good of you to admit that PASOK and KKE are comprador bourgeoisie, because they literally had 8 years of "Eurosceptic" majority after getting into EU to fucking anything about it.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 20:24:43 No.1596663

>>1596660
PASOK maybe, but the KKE were never in power so idk wtf you're talking about.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 20:31:18 No.1596665

>>1596655
>Enough of a difference to break relations down and splits to occur. I dunno. Didn't the same thing happen in WWI? Lenin openly broke with the International and the German Social Democratic Party which was then led by Karl Kautsky because they supported the war.
I think you're forgetting the pro war socialists were being patriots for their own country and they divided that way. That's not happening here, neither KKE or its opponents support the wars of their ruling class. Being a patriot for another country better resembles revolutionary defeatism tbh. If this is indeed not an inter imperialist division (the fact well known intellectuals and parties are splitting over it tells us we should consider it carefully) but a division of progressive and reactionary bourgeoisie, then Lenin's belief that German capitalism was more progressive than Russian feudalism may imperfectly apply (since it's not actually different modes of production).
I believe the latter idea was applied to core periphery division by Trotsky, who would support revolutionary defeat for Britain in a war with Brazil

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 20:40:25 No.1596668

>>1596665
>That's not happening here, neither KKE or its opponents support the wars of their ruling class.
The CPRF does, but I question whether this difference with the KKE is severe enough to warrant a breaking off formal cooperation. I think in Lenin's day the reactionary character of the war was far more cut and dry. Even the parties that later supported it had just a few years prior made a commitment to not supporting any bourgeois war in Europe. The issue was that they had done a 180 after everybody agreed to oppose a war. In this case the question of whether Russia can be progressive is a lot less clear as you point out.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 20:53:57 No.1596671

File: 1694638436836.jpg (12.2 KB, 300x300, 1606693354906.jpg)

>>1596515
>Russia does not eliminate and trample upon the sovereignty of surrounding neighbors.
<says this as Russia literally has invaded Ukraine
lol, lmao even

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:01:33 No.1596672

>>1596655
>You don't hear Chinese saying the "Chinese world." China is part of the world. You hear a "community with a shared future for mankind." More concretely than means playing an active role in diplomatic mediation (such as between Saudi Arabia and Iran), and maintaining strict neutrality between Russia and Ukraine. What Russia wants is a return to an older world based on dividing up the world in spheres of influence. It's a form of great power hegemonism.

There's no evidence Russia wants to return to spheres of influence or great power divisions. This is just neoliberal cope because Russia is undoing the failed successor to that era after it sourced problems with leaving these divisions behind in a nationality. This failure of global capitalism to cross historical divisions (which begins under Yeltsin and he knew it), but merely push an east-west division back until it's in Ukraine, supposes the 'sphere' because it starts defining the absence of spheres at its expense, i.e. capitalism reproduced these differences instead of abolishing them as it should. Is it an assertion of a nationalist world if my internationalism degenerates, becomes defined by specifically opposing your nation, and then gets rejected as falsely international?
No. In these conditions, there is no false consciousness or oppression involved with rejecting this contradictory idea of abolishing the divisions of the world. Doing so is also not conversely a restoration of spheres, which is why the Russians played this well by 1) sending the Ukraine crisis to the UNSC in the first place 2) after the West and Ukraine lost interest in negotiations and wanted deterrence, explicitly appealing to the rest of the world to mediate a deal instead.

Russian world refers to the national question created in the former USSR by decommunization and European expansion. It refers to what you already know, how many postcommunist states blame the problems with their transition on communism and Soviet integration, which takes new meaning after 2008. Europe defined the Russian world for us by defining the problems of new states as its Russians or similar minority. China is no less sensitive to the division of its region or containment. It is considerably worse than Russia on this matter, I'm pretty sure you know this you just had a brainfart and forgot it while making your point. China has no Ukraine, while it adopted the Soviet nationalities policy it always stayed a nation-state. It is actually accelerating Sinicization and integration of former colonies like HK, which is being read as China asserting its great power sphere. This is the liberal interventionist logic of containment.
The RF in contrast basically swallowed everything until 1) the US exploited the Arab spring in Libya and Syria 2) the failing Ukrainian state and European expansion demanded the artificial separation of Ukraine from Russia and the decommunization of 'artificial' populations only there due to Russia.

When you actually look at the last 30 years, there's no actual evidence Russia wants to go back to the 19th century. That's just the liberal logic of imperialist unipolarity because it claims to be negating this century by dominating every modern state. As Mearsheimer says, this is why nobody talks about Russia restoring the 19th century before 2014. It's about rationalizing a crisis of imperialism via externalization. Global capitalist development is not towards great power spheres and Russia knows this, instead the strategy that actually makes it threatening to the West is becoming a Eurasian link between Europe and China via CIS integration that started under Yeltsin. The issue is if Russia is not restored as a pole of Europe again via liberalization then it is instead an Asian pull on Europe that divides it via Germany and France vs the Anglosphere and the butthurt belt. Ironically, this is actually sold as Russia restoring a pole of European imperialism and its sphere.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:05:09 No.1596673

>>1596671
Russia intervened in a conflict between a coup government and breakaway territories that went off the rails once NATO decided to unilaterally resolve a frozen conflict.
So yeah, its history between Ukraine and Georgia is responding to where European expansion causes a crisis by intersecting with 1990s fractures in new states, tipping the balance of power in favor of whatever pro West faction there is.
You'd have to avoid having a global view of history to distort this.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:13:41 No.1596674

>>1596673
That's cool and all but it still doesn't change the fact that ziggas are dead set on not doing anything at all unless it pertains to Russia's war. Imagine if it gets frozen again and ziggas maintain for the next 50 years that nobody can do anything about any crisis until Based Russia takes Lvov, because doing anything in lieu of total Russian victory is betraying the periphery or global working class or something. I know most of you don't actually feel that way but I am getting more and more radlib style vibes from ziggas, where your pet issue now takes precedence over everything else and anyone who strays is a traitor and basically a pro-NATO fascist.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:15:34 No.1596675

>>1596671
eastern Ukraine is Russian THOUGH

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:15:50 No.1596676

>>1596674
>Imagine if it gets frozen again and ziggas maintain for the next 50 years that nobody can do anything about any crisis until Based Russia takes Lvov, because doing anything in lieu of total Russian victory is betraying the periphery or global working class or something.
<i hate ziggas because they hold this insane position i just made up
meds

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:17:02 No.1596678

File: 1694639822627.gif (991.95 KB, 240x135, 1360800488671.gif)

>>1596665
>the fact well known intellectuals and parties are splitting over it tells us we should consider it carefully
>vast majority of intellectuals and communist parties within NATO+friends: both sides bad!
>vast majority of intellectuals and communist parties outside NATO+friends: Fuck NATO! All my homies hate NATO!
>even the split among the fucking /pol/ LARPing reactionaries is Residents of NATO+ vs. Residents of the Whole World
I have considered it carefully, and at length, it's about time I fucking stop considering it.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:19:27 No.1596680

>>1596673
>Russia intervened in a conflict between a coup government and breakaway territories that went off the rails once NATO decided to unilaterally resolve a frozen conflict.
Russia created the conflict by arming and supporting people that pulled off a separatist coup in regions where less than 30% held separatist views.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:20:56 No.1596681

>>1596680
America created the conflict by doing NATO expansion and couping the government to install pro-war nazis in power

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:21:22 No.1596682

>>1596674
I don't know if they are dead set on doing nothing until total pigger death or whatever, but if multipolaristas became radlibs retarding class consciousness then I'd be with you.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:21:53 No.1596683

File: 1694640113052.gif (443.4 KB, 480x238, 1671096415008301.gif)

>>1596671
>Noooo donbass is ukrainian acktually because someone redrew a border 100 years ago! Did you know that when you invade someone trampling your sovereignty, that means it's actually you who is trampling their sovereignty?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:23:21 No.1596684

>>1596680
>Russia created the conflict by arming and supporting people that pulled off a separatist coup in regions where less than 30% held separatist views.
This is false and I explained why in the Ukraine thread. I'm not debating that here.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:28:46 No.1596687

>>1596682
I mean you have mfs in this very thread denouncing the KKE as Trotskyite Jews for taking the position that they have. I know it's cheating to cite the opinions of butthole flag since he's a concentrated nexus of retardation, but adjacent shit pops up in the /ukraine/ far top frequently.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:29:44 No.1596689

>>1596684
You didn't explain anything and "liberal contradiction of capitalism" or similar phrases are also not arguments.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:30:16 No.1596690

File: 1694640616176.gif (1.99 MB, 370x322, 1365543574454.gif)

>>1596687
>mfw Eurocoms

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:32:03 No.1596691

>>1596687
>denouncing the KKE as Trotskyite Jews for taking the position that they have
Yeah, because they are trot jews, not because of their failed theory and negative influence on communism internationally. When you lie about what posters above say in an uncycled thread it's not smart, you need to wait until the thread is cycled. Idiot

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:32:11 No.1596692

I won't like Russia

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:34:22 No.1596695

>>1596678
>vast majority of intellectuals and communist parties outside NATO+friends: Fuck NATO! All my homies hate NATO!
That's bullshit. Plenty of parties in the periphery have taken the same position as the KKE.
http://www.solidnet.org/article/Joint-Statement-of-Communist-and-Workers-Parties-On-the-one-year-since-the-imperialist-war-in-Ukraine/
Of the 31 parties that signed this statement, 20 are from periphery or semi-periphery countries.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:34:50 No.1596696

File: 1694640890439.jpg (159.41 KB, 540x590, western media.jpg)

>>1596692
>I won't like Russia

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:37:59 No.1596699

>>1596691
I'm not lying about anything, butthole flag ranted about how the KKE are Trotskyites (even though they're MLs) and how Trotskyism is derived from the Talmud. Looks like it's been deleted, either because butthole poster was embarrassed or the mods rightfully scrubbed Nazi shit.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:38:33 No.1596700

File: 1694641113337.jpg (76.45 KB, 1024x538, dnr.jpg)

>>1596680
>Russia created the conflict by arming and supporting people that pulled off a separatist coup in regions where less than 30% held separatist views.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:38:50 No.1596701

File: 1694641130354.jpg (71.68 KB, 220x336, 1607541474626.jpg)

>>1596672
>There's no evidence Russia wants to return to spheres of influence or great power divisions.
The evidence is that they are capitalist and therefore bound to further clash with other capitalist nations as they grow using anything from nationalism to soviet nostalgia to justify that growth and what that growth entails (wars, conflicts, repression, etc.). This is basic.
>This failure of global capitalism to cross historical divisions (which begins under Yeltsin and he knew it), but merely push an east-west division back until it's in Ukraine, supposes the 'sphere' because it starts defining the absence of spheres at its expense, i.e. capitalism reproduced these differences instead of abolishing them as it should.
Russia is a part of global capitalism dumbass. Capitalism is a global system. Russia is capitalist. The fact that they are clashing with the western side of this global system proves (and one of the many reasons that show) they are a part of the global capitalist system too.
>In these conditions, there is no false consciousness or oppression involved with rejecting this contradictory idea of abolishing the divisions of the world.
These divisions were drawn by capitalists and are now being contested by a new group of capitalists. The false consciousness lies within the spiel that they claim to be "anti-imperialists" while further expanding their own capitalist system that will eventually lead to imperialism (if it has not done so already). All of this runs counter to socialist aims and is just vagrant opportunism to parties that would gladly see us all dead.

>When you actually look at the last 30 years, there's no actual evidence Russia wants to go back to the 19th century.
I cannot speak for Gay Nazi anon, but the idea is that it isn't really about "going back" to the 19th century. The idea is to justify Russian capitalist expanse as framing its growth that way. Becoming an "empire" with its own sphere of interest which not only includes its borders but the regions around it. Such is the fate of all budding capitalist nations that gain a good foothold and can grow. This leads to imperialism regardless. The capitalist ruling class can claim anything they want, its all just to justify this expanse, it is not a "goal" but an excuse to keep the fire burning.

>Global capitalist development is not towards great power spheres and Russia knows this, instead the strategy that actually makes it threatening to the West is becoming a Eurasian link between Europe and China via CIS integration that started under Yeltsin.
This is ridiculously foolish. You act like capitalism is rational and the future is finely set. If it was this so, "set in stone" and controllable, we'd be have all achieved communism decades ago. History proves otherwise. Fascism. Neoliberalism. The beast grows more heads when it is threatened this is known. Who's to say it won't grow another in the near future?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:41:10 No.1596702

>>1596689
>You didn't explain anything and "liberal contradiction of capitalism" or similar phrases are also not arguments.
I broke down the chain of events and polling data. The war was caused by Ukraine citing Crimea to suppress anti-Maidan in Donbass, which prompted that significant minority to seize buildings and declare a referendum on independence altogether. That minority did not divide Donbass, conditions created by Ukraine allowed it to become a vanguard of what became overwhelming pro Russian sentiment after February 21 and Crimean secession.
The partial collapse of the Ukrainian state caused by the coup led it to accelerate its consolidation of power using the protest movement now as footsoldiers particularly after Crimea. This naturally allowed the separatists to claim the pro-Russian mandate in Donbass.
>>1596687
We also get raided, so I don't use us as a test tbh. I was thinking of the media influencers

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:41:48 No.1596703

>>1596701
>The evidence is that they are capitalist and therefore bound to further clash with other capitalist nations as they grow using anything from nationalism to soviet nostalgia to justify that growth and what that growth entails (wars, conflicts, repression, etc.). This is basic.
Basic liberalism, yes.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:42:46 No.1596704

File: 1694641366484.jpg (20.22 KB, 356x357, 1430253839637.jpg)

>>1596695
>hey look at this list of irrelevant communist parties, tho!
>like the Palestinian Communist Party
>the least relevant of the four that they have
>and PKP-1930
>the one not engaged in an insurgency
No, thanks, I don't need any more toilet paper right now, dumbass.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:44:41 No.1596705

>>1596704
Maybe it's hard to believe, but many communist parties don't suck Russia off.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:46:13 No.1596706

>>1596705
>Maybe it's hard to believe, but many communist parties don't suck Russia off.
Just the ones targeted by regime change 😉

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:46:15 No.1596707

>>1596705
Yeah, only the relevant ones. Like the Workers' Party of Korea.

HRK!

TFU!

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:47:30 No.1596708

>>1596704
>hey look at this list of irrelevant communist parties, tho
Nice goalpost moving. The fact is that most pro-Russian parties aren't relevant either, almost like the entire communist movement is weak globally or something.
>the one not engaged in an insurgency
The CPP considers both Russia and China to be imperialist, so their position would be the same as these other parties.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:48:15 No.1596709

I don't even understand why they even bother mentioning Cuba, anymore. Is it because it's safe? Unlike DPRK? If you don't defend DPRK, you're not a communist, period.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:49:14 No.1596710

>>1596707
Officially speaking, the CPC hasn't taken a side. They continue to trade and maintain diplomatic relations with both NATO and Russia, they abstained on the UN vote denouncing the invasion, haven't provided Russia with weapons, etc. So by your own logic, the most relevant communist party in the world is both sides gang and we can ignore everybody else.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:51:21 No.1596711

File: 1694641881152.png (143.26 KB, 350x350, clown.png)

>>1596672
What the fuck do I care about what "Russia" cares? What does that mean? Since when the "cares" of a state have influenced anything in world? The motherfucker will also have the bitchass audacity to call itself a marxist just cause the use of words.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:51:35 No.1596712

>>1596702
>I broke down the chain of events and polling data. The war was caused by Ukraine citing Crimea to suppress anti-Maidan in Donbass, which prompted that significant minority to seize buildings and declare a referendum on independence altogether. That minority did not divide Donbass, conditions created by Ukraine allowed it to become a vanguard of what became overwhelming pro Russian sentiment after February 21 and Crimean secession.
You conveniently ignore everything that does not fit your agenda, like mass influx of Russians through the border, including well known agent provocateurs and later militants like Igor Girkin.
A large share of Donbas locals still boycott these usurpers, reject voting and working in government and administrative positions.
There is a good reason why many of those are filled with trans-border Russians, in general some United Russia cucks.
Newly "liberated" areas were all completely dysfunctional because the majority of public service workers laid down their jobs.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:51:53 No.1596713

>>1596709
KKE has talked positively about DPRK many times. Try again.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:53:12 No.1596714

https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t20230224_11030713.html
trust the plan

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:53:50 No.1596715

>>1596712
So make your point, why did the conflict in Ukraine happen?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:55:07 No.1596716

File: 1694642107273.jpg (79.93 KB, 800x450, 1662631293391538.jpg)

>>1596710
Oh, we doing this, again? But the UN vote! But the official line! How many times have you carted out the exact same stale shit, only to be told off for using the most idiotic interpretation of international politics?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:57:16 No.1596717

>>1596695
So are we going to uncritically agree with this joint statement just because it was signed by a bunch of communist parties, most of which have incompetent failings in theory which have led them to make these false conclusions in their statement? Just because it's a bunch of communist parties, means they are correct?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:57:19 No.1596718

I won't ever support Russia in its current state. It's just a corpse of the USSR and all the conflicts in eastern europe have their origin in the fall of the Soiet Union. Which cause by extrenal and internal forces, which govern Russia in this very moment. The communist party of Russia was killed when they were robbed of winning the elections and were turned into controlled asslickers. Any good Russian soldier should be organising mutinies.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:58:32 No.1596719

>>1596716
So if we can ignore China's official position to focus on the practical effects of their actions, why don't you do the same with the KKE and similar parties? The KKE is firmly anti-NATO and has organized opposition to Greek participation in the war since day 1. Why are they being raked over the coals for not publicly taking a side while China isn't?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 21:58:45 No.1596720

>>1596717
>most of which have incompetent failings in theory which have led them to make these false conclusions in their statement?
Name them without looking like a sucdem of the WWI times.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:00:14 No.1596722

>>1596717
I don't even agree with the views expressed in that statement. I'm pointing out that it's objectively incorrect to say that communists in the global south universally take a pro-Russian position.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:01:10 No.1596724

>>1596720
The joint statement says the following,
>We stress once again that the peoples have no interest in siding with one imperialist or another, with one alliance or another that serve the interests of the monopolies.
which boils down to >Russia is le imperialist!!!
which is obviously and clearly disproven not only ITT but by all principled Marxists in the WPK, CPC, CPRF, etc.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:01:51 No.1596725

>>1596719
Because China is actually governed by the CPC, so what they say and what they do can be and is completely different, while KKE don't control shit and mouthing off is the only thing they have.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:05:07 No.1596726

>>1596715
>So make your point, why did the conflict in Ukraine happen?
Because Russia intervened to an internal conflict that would have fizzled out without foreign intervention.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:05:46 No.1596728

>>1596722
>I'm pointing out that it's objectively incorrect to say that communists in the global south universally take a pro-Russian position.
Oh okay but nobody actually said that so doesnt matter I guess. The poster you replied to said the majority which is true. So why present a joint statement by only a few communist parties out of them all? Most of whom signed this are led by revisionists and opportunists, even within their own parties I know that the overwhelming majority disagree with their leadership, and support Russia in this conflict. I'm glad so few communist parties bothered signing this tripe.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:06:59 No.1596732

>>1596718
I won't ever support NATO for as long as it exists. It's a disgusting hurricane of reaction, bent on subjugating the entire world to the United States, and its rampage needs to be halted, no matter the cost.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:08:06 No.1596733

>>1596724
>which boils down to >Russia is le imperialist!!!
>which is obviously and clearly disproven not only ITT but by all principled Marxists in the WPK, CPC, CPRF, etc.
I don't just support countries because they aren't imperialist. My standards aren't that low.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:08:42 No.1596734

>>1596724
>which is obviously and clearly disproven not only ITT but by all principled Marxists in the WPK, CPC, CPRF, etc.
No, they are too busy with geopolitics. You don't achieve anything with geopolitics. You can study history and see that the largest revolutions and changes in human history happened whehn geopolitics were ignored (French revolution, bolshevik revolution,…). Russia is imperialist and the USSR was killed by external and internal imperialists. That its range and power it's smaller than the US' doesn't mean anything.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:09:02 No.1596736

>>1596725
>while KKE don't control shit
Then why do you care? You mfs are constantly jumping through hoops to justify your irrational seething. One moment some communists calling Russia imperialist is a great betrayal deserving denunciation, the next moment they're irrelevant and nothing they do matters. If anything the KKE deserves praise for doing everything they can to oppose the war despite their weakness. The great irony of course is that the people who constantly denounce "irrelevant" parties are almost never actually involved on the movement. You lot quite literally live vicariously through BRICS countries, as if their action excuses your inaction. The fact is that the KKE and plenty of other both sides mfs have done way more to oppose NATO than most of the people calling them irrelevant.
>>1596728
>but nobody actually said that so doesnt matter I guess
Tankanon said it here >>1596678

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:09:16 No.1596737

>>1596726
>Because Russia intervened to an internal conflict that would have fizzled out without foreign intervention
Aight, I just wanted to make sure you were being disingenuous. You can go back to being ignored.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:09:29 No.1596738

>>1596732
Yes, you are right. Anything more?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:11:06 No.1596739

>>1596665
I think Lenin's reply to Trotsky was that desiring the defeat of one's own government doesn't mean you support victory for the other side. That's a bourgeois framework that goes: if we lose, they win. But if these are bourgeois imperialist regimes, then them losing is not "the workers" losing. The rulers use nationalism and the war as a way of bamboozling the workers to identify their interests as being the same as their rulers. And it's not like the Paris Commune was pro-German.

>>1596672
>[China] is actually accelerating Sinicization and integration of former colonies like HK, which is being read as China asserting its great power sphere.
Well who is reading it that way? But one reason that China is neutral in the war (if you look at it cynically) is because Beijing considers Taiwan part of Chinese sovereign territory which is recognized as such by most countries in the world. Their position vis-a-vis Russia and Ukraine is rather tortuous but you see Chinese diplomatic statements talk about respecting Ukrainian sovereignty, which Russia does not respect. What precedent does armed separatists in Donbass breaking away set? The same in Hong Kong and Taiwan. But I don't know what the KKE's position on this is.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:11:15 No.1596740

>>1596578
>this war happened because of POOTIN small dick
tier take

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:12:51 No.1596743

>>1596736
Because I got called "not real communist" and "crypto-fascist" one too many times, and I have no intention of taking that kind of shit. Especially not from fucking Eurocoms.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:13:21 No.1596744

>>1596737
>but muh US coup
It's le bad, but doesn't justify sending armed green men over the border.
Russia responded to Maidan with violence because it's a reactionary shithole.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:15:03 No.1596745

>>1596743
KKE aren't Eurocomms, they're MLs. You realize that "Eurocomm" refers to a specific tendency and not just communists from Europe right?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:16:26 No.1596746

>>1596745
Yes. I'm also not in the habit of respecting people's chosen pronouns.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:17:00 No.1596747

>>1596743
Tankanon you said vast majority which is correct because obviously there are some spastic-led parties, many of whom signed this stupid nonsense.

>>1596736
>Tankanon said it here >>1596678
Sharing the link you send didn't matter because they aren't the vast majority of communist parties, even funnier most of the members of the parties that signed this still take the side of Russia as opposed to their leadership

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:19:45 No.1596748

>>1596746
So essentially you decided you had enough of retarded screeching and name calling, and you were going to respond to this by engaging in it yourself? You're getting caught up in a childish spectacle of name calling instead of looking at what actually matters. The KKE actively opposes NATO and its war in Ukraine, and since they have no power over Russia what they say about it literally doesn't matter.
>>1596747
>they aren't the vast majority of communist parties
Is there any proof that the majority of communist parties support Russia?
>most of the members of the parties that signed this still take the side of Russia as opposed to their leadership
Proofs?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:21:17 No.1596750

>>1596744
>It's le bad, but doesn't justify sending armed green men over the border.
Why not? The justification was given already, do you think it's fine that Ukraine wants to genocide the Russian nation living within its borders?
>Russia responded to Maidan with violence because it's a reactionary shithole.
Reaction is when you use violence. Got it, mr anarcho.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:21:33 No.1596751

File: 1694643692940.png (395.41 KB, 620x489, santalittledeathstick.png)

>>1596743
>says stupid things on the regular
>acts like a reactionary buffoon
<why do ppl call me a crypto-fascist
<why do ppl say that i'm not a communist
lol

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:22:32 No.1596754

File: 1694643752623.jpg (295.21 KB, 576x1296, my pingas.jpg)

>>1596748
>You're getting caught up in a childish spectacle of name calling instead of looking at what actually matters.
Excuse you? Living rent free in the heads of 4chan, Twatter, most Western liberals and half of /leftypol/ is extremely important.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:25:11 No.1596758

File: 1694643911857.png (182.79 KB, 386x366, 1601850856781.png)

>>1596754
>Living rent free
<they think they are some specter haunting the zeitgeist
<is actually just a focus of laughter and ridicule
bruh

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:27:50 No.1596760

>>1596754
Just riddle me this Anon. If you lived in a NATO country, and a both sides communist party was organizing a demonstration against NATO and your country's participation in the war, would you support them? Or would you ignore them because they don't agree with out on literally everything?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:30:30 No.1596764

>>1596759
>krates pull the plug
This isn't your /isg/ hugbox, I think you got lost. Why is it that every single time there is any real and engaging discussion on this site we have pussies like you taking everything personally?

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:31:45 No.1596766

>>1596760
Sure, why not. But they aren't doing that, so I don't worry about shitting on them.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:33:06 No.1596767

>>1596750
>Russya prevented genocide of Russians in Ukraine by occupying 10% of the country and leaving 90% of area and about 70% of Russian speakers ripe for genocide
Brilliant plan

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:33:13 No.1596768

>>1596766
Even the tiny parties where I live are doing it. You probably just aren't paying attention.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 22:37:35 No.1596770

File: 1694644655611.png (704.72 KB, 1080x958, 4db.png)

Imperialism is a primarily economic phenomenon. It is the economic drive towards the conquest and subjugation of foreign nations. An empire can be understood as an inherently parasitic entity.

If we don't follow this line of reasoning, we risk falling into liberalism, of starting to regard empires as simply geopolitical powers we don't like and imperialism and imperialism as being any time a power we don't like does any kind of geopolitics or international initiative we don't like. You risk making "imperialism" become an empty snarl word.

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 23:11:05 No.1596780

>>1596744
>Russia responded to Maidan with violence because it's a reactionary shithole
There's no evidence of this. As proven by polling, Russians within Ukraine reacted harshly and WaPo actually predicted it due to the prominent far right role in the protests. Russia naturally acted to protect these people after the West protected their own from the state. It was later revealed that the West told opposition leaders that upon reaching 100 casualties in Kiev they would intervene, let alone a full blown ATO collaborating directly with far right mass orgs and paramilitaries

Anonymous 2023-09-13 (Wed) 23:53:20 No.1596807

>>1596764
I don’t use /isg/ you lickspittle nonce

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 00:04:33 No.1596820

File: 1694649872756-0.jpg (90.41 KB, 700x393, perissos-pano-sto-ktirio-2….jpg)

File: 1694649872756-1.jpg (489.65 KB, 1600x900, 20th-IMCWP-ATHENS-GREECE.jpg)

I'd add one thing about the KKE and its relationship to this INITIATIVE thing and the IMCWP is that they played a really important role in organizing them to begin with, which gives them some clout, and because they happen to be one of the largest and best organized of these parties in Europe. I believe this is from one IMCWP meeting at their HQ in Athens.

I don't know exactly how it works, but if they want to pulled the plug, they can do it because it wouldn't exist if it wasn't for them.

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 00:09:46 No.1596824

>>1596820
>the KKE and its relationship to this INITIATIVE thing and the IMCWP is that they played a really important role in organizing them to begin with, which gives them some clout, and because they happen to be one of the largest and best organized of these parties in Europe
Umm actually Anon, they hold an incorrect opinion on something which has zero bearing on this praxis so that means they're liberal Trotskyites who have never accomplished anything but also are somehow strengthening NATO despite being irrelevant and powerless.

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 00:10:31 No.1596825

>>1596212
I shall both side even if my party dies
<It dies
Lol

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 00:14:42 No.1596827

>>1596824
>Umm actually Anon, they hold an incorrect opinion on something which has zero bearing on this praxis so that means they're liberal Trotskyites

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 00:16:04 No.1596830

File: 1694650564829.jpg (101.79 KB, 700x1244, cqupeybr92m01.jpg)

>>1596268
I was just thinking, what countries have been so fucked up that they are openly turning against a motion for refugees and Sweden (maybe the Danes) was the first one.
The political gut keeps intact. Not the first time I have seen it happen

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 01:39:21 No.1596884

CHYNA

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 01:40:33 No.1596885

Funny thing is you can't say russian saboteur without KKE

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 01:43:08 No.1596887

>>1596683
So were the Germans right to take the Sudetenland then?
Or are you going to say
>Well le revanchism is bad in that scenario because the Nazis are ontologically evil based on their ideology unlike the Russian Federation who are ontologically good for opposing America 👶🏿

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 01:45:12 No.1596888

>>1596703
Glad to see fascism has finally won in this board, now that even your own leninist dogma is seen as liberalism by you

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 01:48:32 No.1596891

>>1596887
Were Poland, or Czechoslovakia actually persecuting the Germans within their borders?

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 01:50:46 No.1596892

File: 1694656246365.jpg (90.08 KB, 499x368, 1588528635054.jpg)

>>1596743
Buddy, you've consistently said reactionary shit on this board. Maybe if you self-crit and take a fucking chill-pill you MIGHT have people not raise their eyebrows and act all smug at you.

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 01:53:20 No.1596893

>>1596746
>Yes. I'm also not in the habit of respecting people's chosen pronouns.

>>1596743
>Because I got called "not real communist" and "crypto-fascist" one too many times, and I have no intention of taking that kind of shit. Especially not from fucking Eurocoms.

These being prime examples

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 02:00:17 No.1596894

>>1596746
>>1596754
lol ok

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 02:02:53 No.1596897

File: 1694656973426.png (70.47 KB, 365x434, 1416759974403.png)

>>1596893
>respect people's choice to self-identify as communist
>or you're a reactionary

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 02:18:15 No.1596904

File: 1694657895460.png (77.03 KB, 250x364, scoutlaughing.png)

>>1596897
>deliberately misreading this as opposed to being criticised for being a transphobe.
The difference between a trans person and a communist is that one is found on gender identity an actual material/scientific basis and not on political beliefs.

https://www.sbs.com.au/voices/article/world-health-organisation-drops-transgender-from-list-of-mental-health-disorders/atgbtb5j7

And even then, given how you're openly a transphobe- you're not a communist.
If you were, you'd realise that being trans actually has a basis in science and is a factual reality- not some bourgoise fad.

And yet in spite of this, you continue to deny reality itself. Trans people have more validity to call themselves trans than you do to call yourself a communist.

NOT ONLY THAT but being transphobic is a clear display of idpol.

So just so we can summarise this
>knowingly rejects trans identity in favour of being a transphobe
>refuses to acknowledge scientific fact and peddles his reactionary beliefs as being "marxist"
>tries to compare being trans to being communist
>acts like a bitch when called out.

seriously ginjeet, are you tired of taking L after L?

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 15:14:54 No.1597204

>>1596734
>bolsheviks or french revolutions ignored geopolitics
On the contrary, geopolitics was extremely relevant to both

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 15:17:25 No.1597206

>>1596569
for french at least, those are the best actual communist parties

Anonymous 2023-09-14 (Thu) 15:35:06 No.1597213

is Indonesia imperialist or sub imperialist ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_conflict

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasberg_mine

Anonymous 2023-09-15 (Fri) 03:45:59 No.1597682

>>1596746
i never understood the whole "le pronoun thing" i can get not respecting "neopronouns" because its silly klingon speak but i get calling someone trying to present female as female and male as male

Anonymous 2023-09-15 (Fri) 03:52:07 No.1597689

>>1596904
>The difference between a trans person and a communist is that one is found on gender identity an actual material/scientific basis and not on political beliefs.
<implying "political beliefs" are just ghosts in the marketplace of ideas and not downstream from material reality
ngmi
really weak attempt at idpol bait, hang yourself

Anonymous 2023-09-15 (Fri) 04:14:04 No.1597709

File: 1694751244184.jpg (262.82 KB, 1908x1146, 1415492669924_wps_14_Pictu….jpg)

>>1597689
>downstream from material reality
Peak burger mindset. Imagine idpoloids actually treat their patchwork "beliefs" as ideology to follow, and not as status consumption or social actualisation tool? Procede to buy your mandatory T-shirt.

Anonymous 2023-09-15 (Fri) 06:39:59 No.1597772

Multipolarity is not an active political position, neither it's a real political policy in the world. What multipolarity is in reality is a state of things that describes the rising powers of multiple big economies such as China and India and to a lesser extent Russia. Multipolarity, when one examines how it arrived can trace it's origins to the globalization that began with the 70s and expanded with the neoliberal era. Globalization tied the world's economies in a very permanent manner and that allowed for the eventual rise of the economic and political strength of multiple countries in that world economic chain.

Anonymous 2023-09-15 (Fri) 06:47:15 No.1597784

File: 1694760435097.png (756.41 KB, 5872x4000, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1597709
do you not know what DOWNSTREAM means, dipshit?

Anonymous 2023-09-15 (Fri) 08:15:55 No.1597811

>>1597682
It’s because individuals with autism and/or antisocial personality disorder are unable to conceive social customs and the comfortability of others, much less how to be likable. This causes them to do deranged shit like purposefully refer to someone as their non-preferred pronouns as a hissy fit, and find no embarrassment in doing so.
Lucky for the Right, most of their supporters are autistic psychopaths, hence the overlap.

Anonymous 2023-09-15 (Fri) 09:32:13 No.1597825

>>1597772
>Multipolarity is not an active political position, neither it's a real political policy in the world.
the brics disagree

Anonymous 2023-09-15 (Fri) 23:30:51 No.1598498

>>1597825
Brics is a joke

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 00:09:02 No.1598529

>>1597213
>sub imperialist
Gtfo with ur revisionism

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 00:10:41 No.1598532

>>1598449
Cope more labor aristocrat

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 01:22:42 No.1598590

>>1597772
>Globalization tied the world's economies in a very permanent manner and that allowed for the eventual rise of the economic and political strength of multiple countries in that world economic chain.
The main goal of late-20th century globalization was to solidify the thousand-year reich of Western economic hegemony, it didn't go well because of China.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 11:32:17 No.1599213

File: 1694863937600.jpg (67.47 KB, 798x747, photo_2023-09-16_14-29-58.jpg)

Will the madlads actually do it and create a latino catholic ISIS with cartel characteristics in the process?

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 11:34:32 No.1599216

File: 1694864072347.png (221.45 KB, 679x471, 1694735380820988.png)

>>1599213
….oh

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 13:10:41 No.1599263

File: 1694869841141.jpeg (230.89 KB, 655x535, 11F05996-5C43-404D-979F-B….jpeg)

>>1599213

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 13:17:31 No.1599270

>>1598498
cope more

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 13:57:20 No.1599281

File: 1694872640720.png (510.14 KB, 800x465, SmaugtheTerrible_webp.png)

>>1599213
I almost want them to do it… See them fail spectaculary not 5000km away ina desert, but at their doorstep.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:00:20 No.1599685

>>1599281
A US military quagmire in Mexico might actually cause it to collapse, especially if China pulls a game move on Taiwan at the same time.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:06:50 No.1599690

>>1599685
US quagmires look like a fast and decisive military campaigns followed by twenty years of subjugation where they loose a few thousands soldiers these days, better not hope for a Russian invasion of Ukraine scenario.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:12:13 No.1599693

File: 1694898733510.png (543.8 KB, 561x720, 55fe957d-4509-41fe-93fd-32….png)

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:13:57 No.1599694

>>1599213
Old news but if the US actually pull this, there would be a massive LatAm volunteer front.

>>1599690
>comparing Mexico to post-Soviet invasion and civil war Afghanistan

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:15:01 No.1599695

>>1599694
*there will be

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:18:00 No.1599697

>>1599213
Today Mexico had their annual military parade, and each year they invite foreign delegations from diferent countries they consider allies to participate
Usually they invite a variety of countries with a couple of westoids here and there
This year, it was all Latam countries plus CHINA and RUSSIA
Obviously i'm not looking forward to a war in my country, but if it ever comes to it, we will take the gringoids down along with us for once and for all, with some foreign neat foreign help

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:23:10 No.1599698

>>1599697
i'll behead americans together with you, mexibro.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:27:53 No.1599700

>>1599694
Just saying the US aren't soft and timid like some other countries, if they go in Mexico they'll just level what they need to level and put the organized crime under their control to do their bidding while MSM presents those millions of civilian bodies as a great victory for freedom and democracy. They don't need to produce billions of shells, dig thousands of kilometers of trenches and put hundreds of square kilometers of minefields during years of gruesome wars, they just murder the faster they can until they win.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:28:57 No.1599701

>>1599698
Mexicans do have a lot of experience with beheadings. Truly a beautiful culture.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:30:04 No.1599702

>>1599701
>mexicans are cartel members
hey, ive seen this one before, something with arabs and terrorists

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:32:15 No.1599703

>>1599701
violent drug gangs are imported american culture

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:39:53 No.1599708

>>1599700
Drone strike the us' electrical grid and send the country back to the stone ages, problem solved

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:55:12 No.1599717

>>1599708
If one(1) of the USA's precious aircraft carriers got sunk (or whatever other mega expensive target destroyed) by a curiously speedy missile of dubious providence then the whole thing would be a bust.

Just trade Mexico some hypersonic or somesuch reliable hitters and be like " uh oh, they got lost somewhere, best hope no cartels got ahold of any" *wink wink* . And then the US can rethink if it's worth it.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:56:02 No.1599719

>>1599213
The US could never militarily invade Mexico out right. They could possibly get some PMCs to invade and they probably do have PMCs there to some capacity.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:59:23 No.1599723

>>1599708
You could as well wish for magic, the electrical grid of the US is built to take a lot of damage without totally failing, add to that this is the most competent country in the world in the aerial fighting domain and the intelligence gathering, that means you would need tens of thousands of drones striking around the same time without your plot being detected, that's just not realistic. Mexico could wage a guerilla war that they would eventually win surely but it would take decades.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 21:59:40 No.1599724

>>1597825
Brics is not multipolarity, it's an economic institution looking to detach itself from over reliance on the Dollar. Which once again is a result of a general trend rather than an active policy which is to say it's an unmaterialist point of view.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 22:02:45 No.1599727

>>1599723
>You could as well wish for magic, the electrical grid of the US is built to take a lot of damage without totally failing
Didn't Texas have a massive blackout because they got like 2cm of snow?

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 22:09:48 No.1599731

>>1599719
They'll just use the cartels

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 22:27:05 No.1599735

>>1599700
Mexico has more population and industrial capacity than any of post-WWII America's previous enemies, thinking they will just cross the border unscathed and do what they want is a bloody fucking cope.
It certainly will be a far, far worse scenario than Ukraine's, if taking into account it has the geography of Afghanistan for good part of territory.

>>1599723
>the electrical grid of the US is built to take a lot of damage without totally failing
Lmao, maybe thirty years ago. American infrastructure is tearing itself apart from under maintenance, just months ago there was a railway chemical disaster in one of the country's large croplands.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 22:38:01 No.1599740

>>1599727
2cm of snow is an euphemism. To be accurate the US power grid is divided and Texas is on its own, so when there was a very bad storm in 2021 the blizzard fucked the non winterized part of the grid and rolling black outs were put in place to prevent a total shut down. To simulate this effect with a swarm of drones you would need to precisely attack hundreds if not thousands of transformers simultaneously. It is true that some parts of the US infrastructure are underfunded and even crumbling but it is often over emphasized by wishful thinking america hater (I am an america hater, I just not do wishful thinking).

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 22:58:50 No.1599753

>>1599740
Ty for the clarification.

Anonymous 2023-09-16 (Sat) 23:57:32 No.1599769

File: 1694908652041.png (64.94 KB, 768x436, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1599213
>Will americans create other cartels for a manufacture of a invasion?
They already have the main cartels as justification.
Meh, the day it actually happens I will do a backflip.

Anonymous 2023-09-17 (Sun) 00:17:32 No.1599776

>>1599281
The resources and logistics for invading mexico would be way less than afghanistan

Anonymous 2023-09-17 (Sun) 00:17:58 No.1599777

I was going to post the latest Grayzone were they talk with a US sociologist based in Mexico and it is as boring and the same shit as always, just as republicans want to do their number there, they too want to bore one to death about human rights and the failure of the army in rooting the cartels.
I have wasted 13 minutes in vain, even worse than in vain. Words can't express it.

Anonymous 2023-09-17 (Sun) 01:35:44 No.1599845

https://wap21.org/?p=566

Apparently noted Larouchite the widely acclaimed speaker, writer, journalist, and political analyst Caleb Maupin and the losers of the Communist Party of Great Britain, notable for getting kicked out of their own front organization by George Galloway, were directly involved with the breakdown of INITIATIVE and general division in regards to the IMCWP. Caleb's massive wrecking is now being transported worldwide. Just lmao at this global shitpost of a tragedy.

Anonymous 2023-09-17 (Sun) 03:18:33 No.1599899

>>1599735
Plus let's not forget the optics of it all. Currently there is absolutely zero cause to invade Mexico that won't have a massive backlash across the world. The US invades Mexico and it'll be a highly costly war no matter how much more technically advanced the US is and it'll destabilize Mexico to such a hard degree that the US most likely will collapse not long after it's "victory". Mexico is a much much more stronger country since the last time the US and Mexico had a full blown war and it's economy is tied to the US and a war would destroy both countries.

Honestly I'd argue the US invading Mexico as the equivalent as that movie where Martin Sheen played a psychotic president who wanted to send out the nukes because he saw it in a dream or some crazy shit, which is to say, highly unlikely. The day US declares war on Mexico or invades Mexico is the day the nukes are in the air. The only other scenario is if the US is weakened so much that it is nothing more than a regional power struggling to maintain relevance and so it uses Mexico as an excuse for resources, say kind of like the Russo-Ukraine war.

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 06:31:46 No.1601978

https://apnews.com/article/iran-us-prisoner-swap-sanctions-assets-4e1fa477f8e6af45fb764acd259c2f1a
>DOHA, Qatar (AP) — Five Americans detained for years in Iran walked off a plane and into freedom Monday, most arm-in-arm, as part of a politically risky deal that saw President Joe Biden agree to the release of nearly $6 billion in frozen Iranian assets owed by a third country, South Korea.
pay up burgers

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 06:34:00 No.1601979

>>1601978
>1.2 billion per prisoner
The Iranians cleaned up pretty nice

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 07:45:31 No.1602006

>>1599735
>It certainly will be a far, far worse scenario than Ukraine's, if taking into account it has the geography of Afghanistan for good part of territory.
Just that it won't ever happen, because US invasion of Afghanistan was the dumbest they did and it's still orders of magnitude less dumb and bloody than Russia invading Ukraine.

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 07:46:21 No.1602008

File: 1695109581249.gif (3.47 MB, 500x207, that's bait.gif)

>>1602006

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 07:56:18 No.1602018

>>1602006
holy cope

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 08:10:25 No.1602026

File: 1695111025882.png (208.34 KB, 781x746, talichad victory.png)

>>1602006
america in afghanistan
>spent ~$300 MILLION usd a day
>over 20 years, ~2.3 trillion usd
>did not achieve the goals they set out to
>utter defeat to the taliban offensive in weeks
>major PR blow to Biden
russia in ukraine
>western estimates put the cost of the operation at 3% yearly GDP https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/05/30/how-much-is-russia-spending-on-its-invasion-of-ukraine
>strong hold over the regions they annexed
>despite America, NATO, South Korea and countless other countries sending a fuck ton of equipment they're still being outproduced by Russia https://archive.is/2023.09.13-202734/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/us/politics/russia-sanctions-missile-production.html https://archive.is/20230526112050/https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-03-01/ukraine-outgunned-10-to-1-in-massive-artillery-battle-with-russia.html
>over 3 months into the hoholffensyiv and still no sign of Ukraine even reaching the first lines of defense, Russian defenses are rock solid
>western press already doomposting about possible peace talks and land/security concessions to Russia

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 08:11:55 No.1602027

>>1599899
>but the optics, tho!
Reject making posts that might age like milk. Embrace the interesting times.

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 09:29:20 No.1602053

>>1602018
>>1602026
>>1602008
Where's the cope? Russia lost even by the most conservative estimate 10x more people in under two years of what Americans lost in Afghanistan over two decades.
Donbas Republics are even worse off.

>muh US dollars
LOL

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 09:49:31 No.1602068

>>1602053
>equipment losses don't matter
>funds thrown away don't matter
>achieving goals of the war don't matter
>winning the conflict doesn't matter
<kill/death ratio does
kill burgers, behead burgers etc etc

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 16:40:51 No.1602309

>>1602053
>Russia lost even by the most conservative estimate 10x more peopl
Considering that back in the 80s the Taliban had the backing of the Pakistani air-force, training by the CIA and millions of dollars worth of weapons supplies and was still losing this isn't the win you think it is. Meantime in Vietnam in the same time frame with the same backing of "insurgents" with weapons, the US military lost 10x more than the USSR and a hell of a lot more equipment.

Anonymous 2023-09-19 (Tue) 16:42:47 No.1602312

>>1599213
>create a latino catholic ISIS with cartel characteristics
I really hope not, US imperialism is utter trash, but Mexican Cartel's are literal ghouls that behave like the Dirlewanger brigade

Anonymous 2023-09-20 (Wed) 22:03:30 No.1603490

File: 1695247410611.jpg (186.66 KB, 1024x768, 1695189211249171m.jpg)

Why do tankies scream about Ukrainian Nazis while ignoring all the Russian ones? Do Nazis only matter if they are seen as geopolitically allied with the "evil West"?

Anonymous 2023-09-20 (Wed) 22:05:02 No.1603492

>>1603490
>tankies
You insult them by associating them with Zoids

Anonymous 2023-09-20 (Wed) 22:10:46 No.1603497

File: 1695247845895.jpg (1.47 MB, 1393x2160, 1665758926741-0.jpg)

Russian Nazis don't have their own units in the Russian military. Russian government is not friendly with the Russian Nazi movement. Russian Nazis aren't glorified and sanitized by Russian state ideology. Russian policy doesn't reflect the ideology of Russian Nazis.

Anonymous 2023-09-20 (Wed) 22:12:43 No.1603499

>>1603497
> Nazis aren't glorified and sanitized by Russian state ideology
Dmitry Utkin, a literal Nazi, won one of Russia's highest honors

Anonymous 2023-09-20 (Wed) 22:14:22 No.1603500

File: 1695248062590.webm (1.99 MB, 384x848, 1659964679548884.webm)

>>1603497

Anonymous 2023-09-20 (Wed) 22:17:13 No.1603502

>>1603499
Its never been proven that he was the one in that photo. Other photos that are confirmed to be him look pretty different apart from being bald. Even if it was him, having a single Nazi get an award is completely different than having entire units of them in the military, or elevating Nazis to central figures in your national mythology the way Ukraine does with Bandera.
>>1603500
Nobody says Russian Nazis don't exist, but they don't enjoy state sponsorship the way they do in Ukraine. Amongst the Russian Nazi movement themselves, considerable numbers actually support Ukraine, even forming their own units in the Ukrainian army.

Anonymous 2023-09-20 (Wed) 22:20:25 No.1603505

>>1603499
he also won a missile to his plane, killing him instantly
+1 nazi to putin's kill count :^)

Anonymous 2023-09-20 (Wed) 22:28:20 No.1603507

File: 1695248899836-0.mp4 (1.54 MB, 480x360, eeVoFTBo8THmkmUT.mp4)

File: 1695248899836-1.jpg (26.46 KB, 640x359, 1af0c8b60abd31f2f983f06ca2….jpg)

>>1603497
The story of post-Soviet fascism is ultimately about the ideological evolution of the Russian and Ukrainian secret services and their informal corporate cultures / political religions. Dugin and Azov is the story of GRU and HUR. FSB and SBU have their own pet Nazis.

These types also used to collaborate pre-2014. Now they kill each other. But the ideologues real job the entire time was to create ideological wrapping for the security services to take over the fringe elements on both sides of the frontline. Vladimir Solovyev, big-time Kremlin propagandist, is also a big ᴉuᴉlossnW and Franco fan (praised them both for showing the world the "third way" … but not Hitler though because he wasn't a real fascist) … although his T.V. scthick personality is entirely based on the likes of Alex Jones, Steve Bannon and other far right broadcast demagogues.

>In this story, Ukraine’s largely Russian-speaking second city of Kharkiv, birthplace of both Ukraine’s nationalist Azov movement and hometown of Dugin’s early patron, the Russian National Bolshevik provocateur Edvard Limonov, plays a significant role. Even now, Kharkiv functions as the organising base for the Azov-linked exiled Russian ultranationalists and neo-Nazis fighting Putin’s invasion through their incursions into Russia’s Belgorod. As the Kharkiv writer Anatoly Voronin observes, the city’s status as an ethnic and cultural borderland between Russia and Ukraine forged an unusual hybrid identity, and a form of nationalism quite distinct from that of western Ukraine, where both Russian and Ukrainian radical Right intellectuals interacted with each other in shaping their worldviews. As Voronin asks: “how do we explain the generally good relations between Dugin and various Ukrainian Right-wingers in the 2000s? No one in ‘Azov’ ever denied the profound influence Dugin had on young [Azov leader] Andriy Biletsky.”

>Dugin’s influence, funded by Putin’s government, within the Ukrainian dissident political scene of the 2000s included cooperation with the poet and Right-wing activist Dmytro Korchynsky of the Orthodox fundamentalist Bratsvo party (whose militia is now fighting Russia in the east; as an aside, a young American volunteer with them I met in Kharkiv complained his fellow fighters dragged him to Orthodox mass early every morning). Dugin even found favour with the fascinating, complex Oleksey Arestovych, until recently Zelenskyy’s strategic advisor, but back then a Eurasianist opponent of Ukraine’s relationship with Nato and the West. Dugin’s original ambivalent stance on Ukrainian nationalism allowed for a degree of influence perhaps surprising now, broken only by his sudden, dramatic turn towards denial of Ukraine’s very existence. Nevertheless, though counterintuitive today, fringe Right-wing political ideas then possessed both unusual reach and strange, overlapping ambiguities.

>The influence of both Dugin and of the German Conservative Revolution is perhaps best embodied in the fascinating political career of the Azov movement’s intellectual star, the Kharkiv native and “first lady of Ukrainian nationalism” Olena Semenyaka. Described by her professors at Kyiv-Mohyla University as “a brilliant student, reserved, and introverted but committed to her work”, Semenyaka’s PhD thesis — “The Transformation of the Conservative Revolutionary Subject in Ernst Jünger’s Work, from the Worker to Anarch in Ernst Jünger’s Creativity” — revolved around Jünger’s relevance to the new world she saw dawning in the 21st century. As the analyst Adrien Nonjon observes, “Semenyaka rose to popularity in the Duginian Traditionalist movement thanks to her article, ‘Conservative Revolution as Mythological Modernism’, published in volume 4 of Aleksandr Dugin’s anthology, In Search of the Dark Logos. She was invited to speak at the international conference Against the Post-Modern World, which was organised at Lomonosov Moscow State University (MSU) in 2011 by the Tradition Center chaired by Dugin”.

[…]

>Whatever the strange ambiguities of their earlier relationship, Dugin and Ukraine’s nationalist intellectuals like Semenyaka are now bitter opponents, locked in an existential conflict against each other, in a sort of esoteric Rightist shadow war distinct from but embedded within the far greater Ukraine tragedy. When the Russian state accused Azov of assassinating Dugin’s daughter Dariya Dugina — a still unproven claim — it only highlighted the strange intertwining of Russian and Ukrainian radical Right-wing politics. On the one hand, these are wildly obscure intellectual currents on the fringes of Right-wing thought; on the other, Western liberals cheering on the Russian Volunteer Corps’s raids on Belgorod, like American Republicans regurgitating Dugin’s portrayal of Zelenskyy as an incarnation of evil, have each found their own political personas influenced by them, demonstrating the strange ability of fringe politics to shape the wider world.
https://unherd.com/2023/06/how-aleksandr-dugin-influences-the-west/

Anonymous 2023-09-21 (Thu) 00:16:40 No.1603553

File: 1695255400194.png (936.43 KB, 976x583, Screenshot 2023-09-21 at 1….png)

>>1603497
>Russian government is not friendly with the Russian Nazi movement.
Then why does the Russian state train them? Using your memes logic, we may as well state that the US is anti-nazi because the FBI cracks down on them- never mind the fact that the CIA knowingly trains far right wing militias, even giving them training grounds to operate on.

Without a doubt, the Russian government collaborates with Nazis.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/15/dying-to-kill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusich_Group

https://bykvu.com/ua/mysli/4216-o-prichinakh-vyvoda-dshrg-rusich-iz-dnr-ili-kak-zhivodery-stanovyatsya-geroyami/

>Russian Nazis aren't glorified and sanitized by Russian state ideology.
And what state ideology is that? Glorification of the past Russian empire? Both the Russian government and the Nazis do this too- with the former even openly praising the black hundreds. Putin himself openly disparaged Putin- calling Ukraine a creation of Lenin and praises the Russian empire, such opinions can be seen by Anton Raevsky.

<Raevsky told Meduza that he has “moved away from Hitlerism.” He now considers himself a Russian Orthodox nationalist and a staunch supporter of absolute monarchy. “But I also emphasize that on the Russian nation’s path to revival there must be a period of national dictatorship,” he said.

<Anton Raevsky was also forced to try and reconcile this discrepancy between the radical, anti-Communist views characteristic of the far-right and Russia’s use of Soviet symbols during the war against Ukraine. “As for the red flags, Lenin monuments, and streets in honor of Bolshevik executioners, I believe that one day Russia will cleanse itself of the putrid smell of Bolshevism,” Raevsky assured Meduza. “And the red flag over the Reichstag building will remain a symbol of a Russian Victory, not of the [Communist] International.”

https://us.politsturm.com/about-putins-speech/

To top it off, Putin regularly invokes the images and rhetoric of Russian tsardom

>In the early 2000s, Putin and his circle began promoting the idea in Russian media that they are the modern-day version of the 17th-century Romanov tsars who ended Russia's "Time of Troubles", meaning they claim to be the peacemakers and stabilizers after the fall of the Soviet Union
<Levin, Eve (Fall 2011). "Muscovy and Its Mythologies". Kritika: Explorations in Russian & Eurasian History. 12 (4): 773–788

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hailing-peter-great-putin-draws-parallel-with-mission-return-russian-lands-2022-06-09/

>Russian policy doesn't reflect the ideology of Russian Nazis.
how so?

<Evgeny Rasskazov, who goes by “Topaz” on social media, was born and raised in the Donbas city of Makiivka. He joined Rusich in 2014, after he saw a call for new recruits Alexey Milchakov had posted online.
<Rasskazov now runs a Telegram channel where he actively posts about the everyday life of a “denazifier” fighting against Ukraine. On April 20, he wrote a happy birthday post dedicated to Adolf Hitler (albeit without naming him). “Today is the birthday of our comrade-in-arms and friend, who became an example for many of us,” Rasskazov wrote. “And even though he has long been gone from us, his actions and words live in our hearts and inspire us to beat the Ukr-Bolshevist scum and multiply the glory of great Russia.”
<The post included a photo he had taken against the background of a Russian military vehicle adorned with the pro-war letter Z, the Tyr rune, and the number 88 (a numerical shorthand for “Heil Hitler”).

<Dmitry (name changed) was involved in Russia’s right-wing radical movement in the 2000s (he now supports the “special military operation” and therefore asked Meduza not to reveal his identity). In his opinion, “a Russian nationalist can’t not be an imperialist.” “The only thing that represents power in this world is an empire. Any non-imperial nation becomes someone’s satellite. In 1991, the balance was upset. And in order to restore it, Russia has to gain its strength back,” he explained.

<Dmitry’s beliefs chime with those of the Russian nationalists who are currently fighting against Ukraine. For example, he falsely claimed that “Ukrainians do not exist as an independent nation” and the “entry of [Russian] troops into Ukraine was provoked by the West.” These arguments also echo Vladimir Putin’s own rhetoric almost word for word.

That's not even getting into the fact that these Nazis who fight for Russia openly display their symbols

>but the russian nazis aren't in power
Neither are american alt right wingers- they don't necessarily require an out right nazi to join the ranks and change the system- just someone who will propose and uphold socially reactionary policies, something which Russia does in spades.

Anonymous 2023-09-21 (Thu) 00:18:03 No.1603556

>>1603507
>Dugin
>is the story of GRU
>Dugin’s influence, funded by Putin’s government
from what I understood, dugin was a literally who in russia before getting his daughter killed, comparing him with azov, a massive, nazi loving, armed org/militia with a big influence on politics and the state that got integrated with the military is fucking retarded

also what the fuck does this shit even have to do with multipolarity

Anonymous 2023-09-21 (Thu) 00:21:56 No.1603561

>>1603553
>https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/15/dying-to-kill

I think you have to take meduza with a grain of salt considering it's an anti-russian rag founded by someone fired for airing Right Sector propaganda and funded by anti-Russian oligarchs.

Anonymous 2023-09-21 (Thu) 00:28:08 No.1603563

>>1603561
1. It was also surpressed by Wagner (totally no red lights being set off there)
2. It's an independent Russian news source that's criticising Russia for having neo-nazis and INTERVIEWING a member of right-sector. Meduza (in the linked article) makes no efforts to downplay the fact that Ukraine has neo-nazis amongst it ranks.
3. >funded by anti-russian oligarchs
Which they parted ways with when said Oligarchs wanted to control 100 percent of the company- which the founders rejected. They're not "funded by them" at all.

Anonymous 2023-09-21 (Thu) 00:32:20 No.1603566

File: 1695256340192.jpg (28.18 KB, 480x564, assad laughing.jpg)

ukraine lost and no amount of seething here about literal who groups in russia will change anything about it

Anonymous 2023-09-21 (Thu) 01:19:53 No.1603591

File: 1695259193376.jpg (201.78 KB, 1280x1126, Zaluzhny w Aidar.jpg)

>>1603553
>Without a doubt, the Russian government collaborates with Nazis.
Even in the examples you posted, we are dealing with Nazis who have joined the Russian military, not the Russian military forming explicitly Nazi units. The closest thing were some far-right Donbass militias, however this is a little different I think considering the LDPR never had a regular army. There's a greater degree of distance between such formations and the LDPR governments, and even more between them and the Russian government. In regards to your US analogy, I would say that all bourgeois governments maintain ties to fascism as an insurance policy. However surely you would agree that it would be a major escalation of this relationship if the chairman of the joint chiefs started posing with the KKK. Picrel is Zaluzhny posing with a Nazi unit, essentially doing the Ukrainian equivalent of that. Clearly the relationship between the Ukrainian state and armed fascists goes far beyond what is typical in a bourgeois state. It also goes far beyond what exists in Russia, as I doubt you will find any pictures of Shoigu palling around with Rusich fighters. In addition, the presence of Nazis in the Ukrainian military is obviously much greater than in the Russian. It's so prevalent that even media outlets that are friendly to Ukraine and are doing their best to promote a positive image of them seem to struggle to avoid showing Ukrainian soldiers sporting Nazi imagery. Let's not forget that time NATO's own official twitter account accidentally tweeted a female AFU soldier wearing a black sun.
https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523
Even Russia's neo-Nazi movement is not in agreement that they should be supporting Russia in this war. Many support Ukraine and are fighting for it, like the Russian Volunteer Army. I don't know of any Ukrainian Nazis fighting on the side of Russia.

TLDR: Even if there are Nazis fighting on Russia's side, and even if Russian glowies have the same kind of relationship to Russian fascists that is typical in bourgeois states, the closeness, normalization, and systematization of their relationship falls far short of what exists in Ukraine.

>And what state ideology is that? Glorification of the past Russian empire?
The glorification of the Russian Empire is without a doubt reactionary, but it's tied in with the seemingly contradictory glorification of the Soviet Union in service of Russian bourgeois nationalist ends. The fact is that not all nationalism is the same from the perspective of practical communist organizing. Ukrainian bourgeois nationalism is wholly hostile to communism in any and all manifestations, it evolved in opposition to the USSR and in alliance with fascism. So much so that even its mainstream incarnation embraces the Ukrainan Nazi collaborators, despite the fact that the Nazis saw Ukrainians as subhuman and were aiming to eradicate them. At times it seems that Ukrainian nationalists are substantially more anti-communist than they are pro-Ukrainian. Russian nationalists by contrast have proven unable to repudiate the USSR, and the modern Russian state embraces it to a large extent. Of course this embrace is entirely cynical and designed to serve bourgeois ends, however it's also a double edged sword insofar as it is incapable of demonizing everything related to communism. This makes the work of communists substantially easier, since Russians do not see a contradiction between patriotism and communism, nor are they indoctrinated to view communist symbols and figures with uniform hostility. In other words, the dominant form of Russian nationalism endorsed by the state, despite its glorification of the Imperial era, offers a far more friendly ideological background in which communists can organize. This brings me to my next point.
>how so?
Ukraine is a fascist government for all intents and purposes. Russia is not. Of course all bourgeois governments have latent fascistic tendencies that come out in moments of acute class struggle or other crises, however practically speaking this is far more advanced in Ukraine than in Russia. Ukraine has banned virtually all socialist parties (except for one pro-NATO, pro-EU socdem party in the Rada), they have made it illegal to display communist symbols, it is illegal to the dispute highly propagandized claims about Soviet attrocities (e.g. the thoroughly debunked claim that the 1932 famine was an intentional genocide), trade unions have been essentially neutralized. If fascism is the use of openly terroristic methods against the left to preserve the rule of the bourgeoisie, then Ukraine is undeniably fascist. Russia by comparison has done none of these things, and on the contrary allows the communist party to operate openly, legally, and (mostly) unmolested. If you were a Ukrainian communist, then Russian occupation or annexation would bring substantial improvements in your ability to actually organize.

TLDR: All bourgeois states exist on a fascist continuum, but Ukraine is much farther along it than Russia.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 04:07:03 No.1604632

BRICS? I think you mean BРभा中S.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 04:49:25 No.1604649

>>1603591
>Even in the examples you posted, we are dealing with Nazis who have joined the Russian military, not the Russian military forming explicitly Nazi units. The closest thing were some far-right Donbass militias, however this is a little different I think considering the LDPR never had a regular army.
So how do you explain the Rusich group? It is listed as a para-military org- much like how Azov is listed as one in Ukraine.

Again, as i've mentioned before in previous threads, Im fully aware that the Ukraine has nazis in their ranks- but what i find disturbing is the "critical support" for Russia that Z posters often exhibit- and who seem to care more about Ukraine being defeated at all costs but not paying attention as to who is dealing the blow. Furthermore, i find it a bit disturbing that when confronted with the fact that Russia openly collaborates with Nazis and employs them to fight- the focus goes back to Ukraine, as if we're forgetting about the nazis who are there.
We're not. What we're concerned about is how exactly is a far right wing gov, that being Russia, is going to usher in socialism as opposed to carve out its own sphere of influence. This is coming from the fact that the LPR and DPR aren't being treated as independent states but are now having the possiblity of being co-opted into Russia itself.

Now im not necessarily going to respond to the second part of the post because i do agree with your analysis, but im not convinced of the conclusion- because while I agree that
>ll bourgeois states exist on a fascist continuum.
I don't see how Russia is at all "less right wing" than Ukraine- because they do repress communists if they get too out of hand-

https://www.idcommunism.com/2018/09/a-political-chernobyl-russian-communists-denounce-electoral-fraud-by-the-pro-putin-forces-in-vladivostok.html

https://www.idcommunism.com/2021/07/what-does-putin-fear-communist-party-candidate-banned-from-running-in-duma-elections.html

and that's not even getting into the horrific treatment of women and LGBTQ citizens which is almost as shocking as what republicans are doing in the USA

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/24/russia-passes-law-banning-lgbt-propaganda-adults

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/24/vladimir-putin-signs-law-banning-gender-changes-in-russia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/14/journalists-fear-reprisals-for-exposing-purge-of-gay-men-in-chechnya

https://time.com/4663532/russia-putin-decriminalize-domestic-abuse/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/16/decriminalisation-of-domestic-violence-in-russia-leads-to-fall-in-reported-cases

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/30/russia-decriminalise-domestic-violence-laws

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/07/putin-approves-change-to-law-decriminalising-domestic-violence

Now let's take a step back.

Let's engage in a hypothetical for a moment- we both know Saddam Hussein was a CIA backed Ba'athist dictator- but as opposed to the USA invading him, he had to deal with a communist entity doing him in- would we not then be in favour of the communist entity?
Now if you answer yes- think for a moment why one would prefer a communist entity over the USA.

Now try and apply that situation to Ukraine. These neo-nazi fucks absolutely should be brought to justice- but it's a far right wing nationalist org who knowingly collaborates with Nazis to take them down.
Although they're different- they're both far right and will serve little purpose in forwarding the rise of socialism- especially given how NATO has had their pockets lined.

And this is the crux of the matter: Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't going to cause the collapse of the west or the death of NATO- because it will still perpetuate a reactionary bourgoise form of governance and only carve out a competitive capitalist bloc with the west.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 07:11:06 No.1604729

>>1604649
>a far right wing gov, that being Russia
>they're both far right and will serve little purpose in forwarding the rise of socialism
depends on what you mean by far right wing
and what about that you think precludes forwarding the rise of socialism
and to what scope the rise of socialism pertains

>Russia's invasion of the Ukraine isn't going to cause the collapse of the west or the death of NATO
why not

>because it will still perpetuate a reactionary bourgoise form of governance
this isn't related to the above, it could collapse the nato and also perpetuate a reactionary governance locally while making space globally

>collaborates with Nazis and employs them to fight
>they do repress communists
okay but thats not the same as having your government occupied by a nazi militia. you do understand how thats different?

>I don't see how Russia is at all "less right wing" than Ukraine
What about less right wing than the US or EU?

You are going to say that Russia is right wing because they praise the tsar, the church and persecute LGBT and journalists. But they have >50% economic control in the state. That is left wing. More left wing than social democratic Scandinavia. NATO is right wing, they privatize state owned socialized public assets under duress and at the barrel of a gun and sell them off to the highest bidder. Joe Biden and the US is 10x more right wing than Putin or Russia will ever be.

>only carve out a competitive capitalist bloc with the west
it will make room for a socialist bloc around China

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 08:41:19 No.1604756

File: 1695372079097.gif (3.17 MB, 554x551, 1692343728337918.gif)

>>1604649
>So how do you explain the Rusich group? It is listed as a para-military org- much like how Azov is listed as one in Ukraine.
1. rusich is literally a few dozen people according to western sources
2. azov is much larger and is not a “paramilitary org”, its officially part of the ukrainian military and they have people pretty high up in positions of power you disingenuous faggot

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 10:05:27 No.1604791

>>1604729
> But they have >50% economic control in the state. That is left wing. More left wing than social democratic Scandinavia.
Wow
You know I didn’t expect this board to reach a level of retardation to the point of unironically arguing “Socialism i when the government does things”, but I guess nothing should surprise me now that everyone’s gone full retard to shill for Russian militarism

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 10:31:17 No.1604803

File: 1695378677155.jpg (68.96 KB, 768x432, poroshenko_nazi_patch.jpg)

>>1604649
>It is listed as a para-military org- much like how Azov is listed as one in Ukraine.
Azov isn't a paramilitary group, they're brigade of the Ukrainian regular army, and they only one of numerous such openly fascist units.
>Furthermore, i find it a bit disturbing that when confronted with the fact that Russia openly collaborates with Nazis and employs them to fight- the focus goes back to Ukraine, as if we're forgetting about the nazis who are there.
Because the relationship between fascists and the Ukrainian government is obviously much closer for all those reasons I described. In addition to fascist units being more numerous, and in addition to them being formal units of the regular Ukrainian army (unlike Rusich who are a much smaller irregular militia), it's clear that they are much closer to the country's military and civilian leadership. I already showed you that photo of Zaluzhny smiling next to members of a Nazi unit (something that you have yet to see in Russia), but photos have also surfaced of ex-president Poroshenko sporting a black sun patch, picrel. You simply don't see this level of acceptance of far right formations, ideology, and symbolism among the Russian leadership.
>What we're concerned about is how exactly is a far right wing gov, that being Russia, is going to usher in socialism
It isn't, but by pursuing its own interests it's creating conditions more conducive to the establishment of socialism. It does this by helping destroy the ability of the US to act as the unilateral world police of reaction, as the Russian and Austrian Empires once did in the 19th century (which is why Marx supported Britain and France in the Crimean War). In the absence of a country playing this role, it becomes possible to play capitalist states off against one another to the benefit of socialist and progressive forces. They're also destroying the imperialist economic basis of the postwar class compromise in the West, which will force the ruling and working classes in Western countries into more intense confrontations, creating more fertile ground for socialist agitation. All of this is in spite of the bourgeoise character of the Russian state. Any aid they render to socialism is literally by accident on their part, and their limits of their progressive potential should be kept in mind. But they are no less tangible because of this.
>I don't see how Russia is at all "less right wing" than Ukraine- because they do repress communists if they get too out of hand-
Yeah and Ukraine represses communists just for existing. The Weimar Republic repressed communists too, but surely you would agree that the Nazis were further to their right. Well the status of communists in Russia is far closer to that of Weimar, whereas in Ukraine its more like the Third Reich (and not just because there are statues of Nazis everywhere).

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 11:26:52 No.1604838

Counter thesis: the Russian invasion of Ukraine actually set the trend of multipolarization of the world back a decade because multipolarization first relies on a breakdown of western geostrategical homogeneity.
So what did their failed invasion accomplish? Well Europe was decoupling from the US to tie links with China with mounting criticism toward American ingerence. Now this process is basically paused, if not reverted with two countries having joined NATO, American arm sales having exploded tying European countries more to them, politically also with Italy exiting the BRI and Greece also getting cold feet about that. This military fiasco put China in a very difficult position because they couldn't exactly turn their back on Russia to please Europe where still a lot of their investments are, and that was badly interpreted by Europeans. Meanwhile Russia, which was a powerful influence on Europe with their gas export just sacrificed that for a war they aren't even winning, and a war that will crunch their economy in the mid to long term and hence their future capability to act as a counterbalance for atlanticist Europeans.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 12:01:18 No.1604856

File: 1695384078475.png (436.8 KB, 540x512, hohol propaganda.png)

>>1604838
>putler ruined multipolarity
>ruzzia is losing
>NATO expanded!! to a country that was never neutral on russia and already deeply integrated into the EU/NATO equipment
>europe has definatelly fixed the energy crisis
must be nice to live in fantasy land
pepper your anus piglet, history is just beggining

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 12:47:00 No.1604872

>>1604838
lmao coping retard

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 12:59:01 No.1604875

>>1604856
>>1604872
Beside coping and seething any actual arguments? Despite your cope NATO is bigger, Russia is not winning, and if anything the European energy crisis strengthened ties between EU and the US because Europe gets more of its energy from America now. I'll give it to you though, this one may be a boon in the long run because it makes Europe focused on 100% renewables goal and thus they buy more renewables from China.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 13:29:25 No.1604883

>>1604875
>Despite your cope NATO is bigger
Sweden and Finland were de facto part of NATO already, and at this rate it's not even clear that Sweden will get in.
>Russia is not winning
Yes they are. Ukraine spent months preparing the current offensive and it hasn't been making anywhere near enough progress to resume a war of movement. They cannot win a war of attrition, especially now that their third largest arms supplier Poland has announced that they will no longer be sending weapons.
>if anything the European energy crisis strengthened ties between EU and the US
The subordination of the third world is far more important to the West than the unity of its own bloc. The apparent split between Europe and America prior to the war was clearly not as large as it appeared, since the US proved able to coerce even the largest European powers into destroying their own economies for the sake of American interests. Ffs the US literally committed an act of war against Germany by destroying Nordstream, and Berlin didnt even complain. If they are capable of doing this, then clearly it was never really in the cards for the EU to have a real break with the US. Far more relevant is the fact that most of Africa, Latin America, and Asia have proven totally unwilling to go along with American demands to isolate Russia, and the US has (unlike with their European satellites) proven unable to coerce them into compliance. South-south cooperation, dedollarization, and the formation of alternative trade and geopolitical blocs has also accelerated. Vital US allies like Colombia, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE have signalled that they will not stay exclusively in the Western camp, and are actively seeking reproachment with America's strongest enemies.

So in other words, the US hasn't gained anything that it didn't in practice already have before the war, but it has lost quite a bit.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 14:18:03 No.1604904

File: 1695392283620.jpeg (99.54 KB, 941x620, IMG_3624.jpeg)

>>1604875
this is what “winning” looks like btw

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 14:29:34 No.1604911

File: 1695392974666.png (19.38 KB, 288x236, TOWM.png)

>>1596699
>…the KKE are Trotskyites (even though they're MLs?…
threadly reminder

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 14:44:28 No.1604919

File: 1695393868571.png (298.18 KB, 1440x720, 1f13261_1669387252813-capt….png)

>>1604883
>Sweden and Finland were de facto part of NATO already
I'm sorry but that's cope. Without invasion Sweden and Finland wouldn't be in NATO today, and criticizing NATO would be easier in Europe because it wouldn't be immediately associated with pro Russian belligerence.
>Yes they are
No they are not, Russia lost the whole northern region and Kherson since their initial gains. They have trouble making enough war material, they are loosing a lot of men and material. Poland sent old soviet material, now they feel they don't need to send more for a while because elections and it's not like Russia is making gains and threatening to put their frontier south of them, if this was the case the equation would be different. You're usually a good poster but the /ukraine/ echo-chamber did a number on you.
>The subordination of the third world is far more important to the West than the unity of its own bloc
The subordination of the third world to the west depends on the unity of the western bloc. Furthermore the European economies are far from being destroyed, and you can't prove that the southern developments you talk about wouldn't have happened without a war, and maybe they would have been faster without Russia throwing a fit because the main reason they are happening is China. I'll say it again anyway, dedollarization was already happening and is extremely limited.

>the US hasn't gained anything
The US has gained the pause of the EU slipping from their sphere toward China, two new members in their immediate military sphere, and has cut down the military forces and influence of one of its biggest rivals, while loosing near zero men. Doesn't look like anything to me.

>>1604904
This is not what winning looks like btw.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 14:51:54 No.1604926

>>1604883
It's a stalemate dude, Ukraine libs say they're winning, Russian multipolar libs say they're winning, it's a stalemate that's the reality. Sometimes Ukraine pushes in to gain some ground then Russia pushes in another place to gain that ground, Ukraine diverts forces to place that Russian forces gained, stops them, pushes them back a little and vice versa, Russia diverts forces to area Ukraine gained ground in, takes it etc etc and so the cycle repeats. This war is more of an endurance war not a territorial war and Ukraine has its back covered by the whole of NATO and the US and gets a constant steady stream of supplies to keep them going which offsets it's size disadvantage to Russia. No one is winning and the best military "analysts" will say the same, that this war is just the same shit on repeat.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 14:55:55 No.1604929

File: 1695394555278.jpg (769.4 KB, 1568x754, counteroffensive plans vs ….jpg)

>>1604919
>They have trouble making enough war material
and yet they are outproducing america + NATO + the collective west
curious!
https://archive.is/2023.09.13-202734/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/us/politics/russia-sanctions-missile-production.html
<Before the war, one senior Western defense official said, Russia could make 100 tanks a year; now they are producing 200.
<Western officials also believe Russia is on track to manufacture two million artillery shells a year — double the amount Western intelligence services had initially estimated Russia could manufacture before the war.
<As a result of the push, Russia is now producing more ammunition than the United States and Europe. Overall, Kusti Salm, a senior Estonian defense ministry official, estimated that Russia’s current ammunition production is seven times greater than that of the West==.
<Russia’s production costs are also far lower than the West’s, in part because Moscow is sacrificing safety and quality in its effort to build weapons more cheaply, Mr. Salm said. For instance, it costs a Western country $5,000 to $6,000 to make a 155-millimeter artillery round, whereas it costs Russia about $600 to produce a comparable 152-millimeter artillery shell, he said.
https://archive.is/20230526112050/https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-03-01/ukraine-outgunned-10-to-1-in-massive-artillery-battle-with-russia.html
<According to data from the European Commission to which EL PAÍS has had access, Russia fires between 40,000 and 50,000 artillery shells per day, compared to 5,000-6,000 Ukrainian forces expend.
nice /k/ope fag

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 15:04:59 No.1604939

>>1604919
>Poland sent old soviet material, now they feel they don't need to send more for a while because elections and it's not like Russia is making gains and threatening to put their frontier south of them
nice cope, poland is not going to send any more equipment from their own stocks, new or old, because ukraine is suing them and doing retarded WTO shit over grain exports
you can't back up what you're claiming here with a single source from the polish government, meanwhile what i just layed out is almost verbatim of what the polish PM announced https://archive.is/ZMga4

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 15:12:58 No.1604944

>>1604929
>Russia building cheaper weapons
>Russia using up tens of thousands of shells vs Ukraine's thousands
Okay that's raw numbers but effective is all that? Lol NTA but your post is kind of against you and only proves the waste that Russia is producing with regards to military goals… more isn't always better. If 50 shells let's you destroy one tank vs it takes you 150 shells to take out one tank, that's not good.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 15:19:32 No.1604947

File: 1695395972083.png (840.46 KB, 1950x2028, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1604944
>"using up"
lmfao russian shell stockpile and production capacity is huge
america is the one that used up their shit, they literally can't afford to send 155mm anymore since july
https://www.csis.org/analysis/rebuilding-us-inventories-six-critical-systems
https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-sending-ukraine-cluster-bombs-running-out-ammo-2023-7
<Biden told Zakaria that the weapons were being sent to Ukraine during a "transition period" until the US is able to produce more 155mm artillery.
<"This is a war relating to munitions. And they're running out of that ammunition, and we're low on it," Biden said.
<"And so, what I finally did, I took the recommendation of the Defense Department to – not permanently – but to allow for this transition period, while we get more 155 weapons, these shells, for the Ukrainians."
nice "temporary" measure bro, we're in september already and we've yet to see anything higher than a 0% increase in production to hit the "surge" numbers the pentagon claimed were possible
>If 50 shells let's you destroy one tank vs it takes you 150 shells to take out one tank, that's not good.
ah yes, dumb slav orcs need 3 times as much shells to destroy the elven wunderwaffe tanks!!
reality check faggot: even if i suspend desbelief and pretend to believe in your /k/ope bullshit it still means russia has the advantage, they have SEVEN TIMES the production and 10 TIMES the capacity to fire, and that's BEFORE america ran out of 155mm and had to switch to cluster bombs

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 16:14:34 No.1604968

File: 1695399274025.png (1.51 MB, 1056x594, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1604944
>they're not producing enough
>okay they are… but at what cost?
lmao, the jokes write themselves

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 16:21:03 No.1604973

>>1604926
Russia is winning because it's a stalemate in the field. It's a war of attrition which inherently favours the side that can absorb the most losses, since they're the side that can sustain the attrition the longest. In this war that's Russia.
>>1604919
>Without invasion Sweden and Finland wouldn't be in NATO today
True, but they would still be deeply cooperative and integrated with them. They were already sharing intelligence, conducting joint training and operation, buying Weapons from NATO countries, etc. They were essentially in NATO in all but name.
>No they are not, Russia lost the whole northern region and Kherson since their initial gains.
Ukraine's early operation victories don't compensate for the strategic inferiority. Those gains were only possible because of a manpower imbalance that has now been corrected. Russia can field more troops and equipment, and most importantly they can absorb more losses. If Ukraine can't break the stalemate and reintroduce a war of movement, they will eventually lose a war of attrition simply because they can't keep up the fight for as long.
>The subordination of the third world to the west depends on the unity of the western bloc.
Clearly not, since that subordination has decreased even as the unity has increased. NATO being "more united than ever" didn't stop Saudi Arabia and the UAE from joining BRICS. It didn't stop those Sahel countries from expelling the French. It didn't stop numerous countries from announcing trade in their national currencies.
>maybe they would have been faster without Russia throwing a fit
But they weren't. This sort of thing *was* already happening, but it clearly picked up the pace relative to before the war.
>The US has gained the pause of the EU slipping from their sphere toward China,
It was never going to happen in the first place. Again if the US can blow up German pipelines and have them commit economic sepuku on demand, then clearly Germany lacks the ability to assert any kind of real independence from the US. Since Germany is by far the economically strongest country in Europe, its impossible to imagine anybody else doing so.
>two new members in their immediate military sphere
Two countries that were already in their military sphere. They're closer now than before sure, but they haven't gained any new allies.
>has cut down the military forces and influence of one of its biggest rivals
The Russian military is substantially larger than before the war and Russia is producing more military equipment than before the war. Sure they are taking losses, and these might bite economically in the long term (though Russia will be nowhere near as demographically fucked as Ukraine), but any war between Russia and NATO would go nuclear eventually so its a moot point.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 17:23:48 No.1605020

File: 1695403428063.png (69.92 KB, 720x724, ClipboardImage.png)

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 18:20:08 No.1605103

>>1604791
>“Socialism i when the government does things”
Not what I said. Left-wing is when the government does things. If you disagree provide an alternative material explanation for "far right wing".

Ukraine is more right wing than Russia because of its economic policies.

The US is more right wing than Russia because of its economic policies.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 18:34:33 No.1605127

>>1604838
>Europe was decoupling from the US to tie links with China with mounting criticism toward America
You have discovered the source of the inter-imperialist proxy war in Ukraine. It is a war between the US and Germany to redivide the world. Germany thought it could change the imperialist arrangement and get more energy from their Russian colony and the US said no.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 18:35:58 No.1605135

>>1605103
>Left-wing is when the government does things
Please tell me this is a meme
Holy fuck please tell me this is a meme and not how stupid the average leftypoler is now

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 18:36:27 No.1605138

File: 1695407787341.png (410.64 KB, 759x705, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1604919
>They have trouble making enough war material
>European economies are far from being destroyed
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-ammunition-manufacturing-ukraine-west-officials-2023-9

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 18:37:02 No.1605139

>>1605135
what do you think left-wing means?

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 19:09:01 No.1605204

>>1605135
>Russia is left wing
I know you is one of those anti multipolarity parroters thinking it is a change of imperial cores but sometime people that supposedly defend multipolarism for some reason defend reactionary states.

Althrough the change of a global polarity is a good thing, we need to differ which countries wanna liberate themselves from capitalist western exploitation and which ones are bunch of opportunist countries.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 20:14:46 No.1605247

>>1605139
Egalitarianism since I'm not a lolbert fucktard that thinks
>Left wing is when more gubmint right wing is when less gubmint
You fucking moron

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:06:55 No.1605280

>>1605247
>Egalitarianism
so youre an idealist. how do you suppose equality is to manifests in the real world with no economic material base to support it? left/right if we are to assume it even exists is determined by economics. private ownership is right wing, public ownership is left wing.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:09:31 No.1605282

>>1605204
>reactionary states
progress is determined by economics, not social issues. russia is nationalizing private enterprise and developing industry. that is progressive. the west is privatizing public services and deindustrializing to consolidate monopoly. that is reactionary.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:14:29 No.1605284

>>1605280
Lmao no, I'm a communist, most of this board are seemingly fucktards that would argue absolute monarchy is to the left of the French Revolution lmao, this truly is one of the stupidest shitholes on the internet, I swear tanks are one of the most deranged and comical human memes I have ever fucking encountered, an entire subculture of retarded capitalist shills and subhuman booklets that genuinely think they're not only communists, but Marxist communists at that

>Ah yes more left wing more government more right wing less government when the state owns industry that's the people owning industry cuz da state is da nation is da people
At least polyps know what they are

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:23:32 No.1605290

>>1605284
>>1605247
Is it a bad time to mention Marx and Engels were anti-egalitarian and did not consider equality as a helpful political goal?

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:26:18 No.1605291

>>1604875
>Beside coping and seething any actual arguments
all your points were so laughably wrong I didnt even bother

>set the trend of multipolarization of the world back a decade
literally the reverse is true, we've seen a massive acceleration of the process

>relies on a breakdown of western geostrategical homogeneity
no, it rely on viable alternatives, and sanctions proving the west unreliability and russia openly defying the west are both boosting the alternatives

>So what did their failed invasion accomplish
brutal acceleration of dedollarisation, neutralized ukraine as nato launchpad for the foreseeable future, rise of multipolarity, get a fight on their terms in a relatively advantageous position

>Well Europe was decoupling from the US to tie links with China with mounting criticism toward American ingerence
lmao what ? no. anti china rhetoric and US cocksucking was already pretty high.

>American arm sales having exploded
yes I am sure forcing your vassals already nosediving economically to fund your incredibly wasteful and shitty arm industry even more is very productive

>Italy exiting the BRI and Greece also getting cold feet
neither of them ever had any true independent foreign policy, nobody in europe has actually

>and that was badly interpreted by Europeans
lol who the fuck cares, europeans dont have sovereignty

>which was a powerful influence on Europe with their gas export
you mean which funded their whole economic model without having any political gain to show for it

>a war they aren't even winning
but they are

>a war that will crunch their economy in the mid to long term
only short mid actually, as soon as the pipelines to china and india are built and they can start importing high tech from there, europe become basically useless, and they were always going to get shafted by the nato bloc eventually

>their future capability to act as a counterbalance for atlanticist Europeans
lol so to act as counterbalance you have to never confront the other side, being virtually useless, saving yourself for a later confrontation that should never actually materialize ? laughable

>strengthened ties between EU and the US because Europe gets more of its energy from America now
<getting fucked by the US energy price, dismantling your industry that started to cause them problems, is "strengtening ties"
<getting your pipeline blown up by your ally is getting stronger ties with him
lol

>makes Europe focused on 100% renewables goal
are you actually buying into the politicians lies ? lmao

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:27:27 No.1605292

>>1605284
the fact you're arguing with a retard doesnt mean you're not also an idealist retard

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:29:34 No.1605297

File: 1695418174054.mp4 (775.22 KB, 640x360, cucktinfooledagain.mp4)

>>1604929
>>1605138
Love how you trust a random announcement from a baltoid politician and run with it, says a lot on the seriousness of ziggas. Wars aren't won with just a lot of shells and a dwindling number of tanks anyway, which is obvious since Russia isn't advancing despite allegedly having a lot of shells.
So yeah basically this whole situation will last at least a few years if not a decade and meanwhile China and EU will struggle to approach each other like they should have done otherwise.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:32:24 No.1605298

>>1605291
retard

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:43:34 No.1605305

>>1605297
>Love how you trust a random announcement from a baltoid politician and run with it
it is western confirmation of what has already been known for months

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:44:32 No.1605307

>>1605292
now give your own non-idealist non-retard analysis of "rightwing" "leftwing"

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:49:18 No.1605312

>>1605290
Only because they were stuffy academics that for some reason choose to pretend that "equality" meant everyone having the same life rather than nobody having political dominance over anyone else, the latter of which they actually did support

Also I forgot I was supposed to filter all the deranged flags

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:51:56 No.1605315

>>1605290
Proof?

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 21:52:30 No.1605316

>>1605297
>which is obvious since Russia isn't advancing
The Entente barely advanced on the Western front throughout the entirely of WW1, but still won decisively. Why? Because Germany expended its manpower and materials to such a degree that they could no longer keep fighting. This is what will happen to Ukraine.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 22:00:59 No.1605325

>>1605316
Hope you realize that at this rate it will take 20 years. Also counterpoint: Russia lost WW1 without expending all its manpower and materials, you will be surprised to discover how.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 22:13:55 No.1605331

>>1605315
>Critique of the Gotha Programme, Chapter 1
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm
Trying to make people equal in one respect will make them unequal in another.

>"The elimination of all social and political inequality,” rather than “the abolition of all class distinctions,” is similarly a most dubious expression. As between one country, one province and even one place and another, living conditions will always evince a certain inequality which may be reduced to a minimum but never wholly eliminated. The living conditions of Alpine dwellers will always be different from those of the plainsmen. The concept of a socialist society as a realm of equality is a one-sided French concept deriving from the old “liberty, equality, fraternity,” a concept which was justified in that, in its own time and place, it signified a phase of development, but which, like all the one-sided ideas of earlier socialist schools, ought now to be superseded, since they produce nothing but mental confusion, and more accurate ways of presenting the matter have been discovered.
<t. Engels

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 22:15:31 No.1605332

>>1605325
>Hope you realize that at this rate it will take 20 years.
Ukraine can't even put together full strength brigades for their offensive after months of preparation and stockpiling Western weapons. They've resorted to kidnapping random men off the street to keep their lines staffed. Idk when their breaking point will be, but I can't see them lasting more than a few years.
>Russia lost WW1 without expending all its manpower and materials
Yes, by being decisively defeated in a war of maneuver, the exact kind of war that Ukraine has proven unable to initiate. The revolution was the result of being defeated in the war, not the other way around.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 22:18:46 No.1605335

>>1605312
>No, no, see here is the correct definition of *insert term here*
Empty signifier got your cock?

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 22:37:50 No.1605345

>>1605331
>Trying to make people equal in one respect will make them unequal in another.
Nowhere in what you pasted is this expressed by them. They're not against "equality" in general, they're only critiquing the political party's sloganism and explaining how equality in this context is meaningless.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 23:01:11 No.1605353

>>1605345
>But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.
Did your liberal heart start beating faster and compel you to salvage the idea of Marxism supporting equality, even as Marx and Engels themselves are dismissive of the term as French idealism, and have a lot more bigger brained things to say on the topic?

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 23:25:59 No.1605363

>>1605353
You seem to be forgetting that this critique is only directed at the notion that differences in worker compensation can be abolished immediately. He goes on to say:
>But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.
>In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
In other words, he doesn't object to the goal, but he thinks it's utopian to think that you can get there immediately just by giving equal compensation for equal work. A higher-stage communist society which operates according to the principle of each according to ability, each according to need, would necessarily be highly egalitarian because nobody would consume in excess of their needs, nor contribute less than their capacity.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 23:34:02 No.1605367

>>1605363
What about those that need more and can provide less?

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 23:37:53 No.1605368

Fuck Russia
Fuck Ukraine
Fuck the fascist Putin
Fuck the fascist Zelensky
Glory to China and glory to her all the way to 2050 when she forces the fascist forces in Russia to submit to superior Chinese model that is way more successful than their retarded petty territorial games. Woe to the zigger that can't see beyond his own faggot nose. China will thrust us into a new peaceful era of political polarities rather than faggotin and his reactionary state and Zelensky with his aging policies of a bygone unipolar era. Cope to ziggers cope to NATO cope to all who do not submit to China's glorious and peaceful ways.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 23:43:43 No.1605371

>>1605368
>political polarities
>peaceful

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 23:46:54 No.1605374

>>1605368
Nobody tell this guy that China is capitalist.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 23:47:10 No.1605375

>>1605367
What about them? They take what they need and give what they can. The whole point is that genuine equality needs to recognize differences of capacity and needs. Otherwise in a practical sense you're asking people to contribute more than others and compensating them with less.

Anonymous 2023-09-22 (Fri) 23:52:11 No.1605379

>>1605375
>genuine equality needs to abandon any method of actually materially measuring it
Now that's a galaxy brain take. I feel like I did a line of purest, uncut ideology.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 00:03:26 No.1605384

>>1605379
What is more equal? Everybody's actual needs being equally met or everybody forcing to adapt their needs to a universal standard? Is it more egalitarian to make a one legged man walk or to give him a wheelchair?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 00:09:53 No.1605388

>>1605368
hmm, i wonder what’s china’s position in this conflict

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 00:13:43 No.1605390

>>1605374
I never said anything about China and socialism, only that they're better than shit Russia and this pointless conflict between Zelenfag and Fagtin.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 00:15:13 No.1605391

>>1605388
Tbqh I think that they would have preferred it to not happen. The CPC likes stability and predictability.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 00:16:05 No.1605392

>bring up China to a zigger and they cry about China being capitalist and China about to collapse
It's convenient how much ziggers show favoritism to Russia vs China, it's hilarious.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 00:21:03 No.1605396

File: 1695428463478.jpg (546.06 KB, 979x832, 1494724997179.jpg)

>>1605384
What is equality? What does it mean to be egaltiarian? What does it matter? And what is this French liberal doing trying to understand my communism?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 00:30:42 No.1605399

>>1605392
What about chiggers?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 00:34:28 No.1605400

>>1605399
Chiggas* are pragmatic, put together smart folk that have long term goals in mind and always look up not down in the gutter for scraps like ziggers do.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 01:11:37 No.1605414

>>1605363
>In other words, he doesn't object to the goal, but he thinks it's utopian to think that you can get there immediately
>A higher-stage communist society
In other words, hes saying that you can't just impose ideas on material reality because the level of equality is determined by the economic base that supports it.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 01:22:37 No.1605419

>>1604729
>But they have >50% economic control in the state. That is left wing. More left wing than social democratic Scandinavia. NATO is right wing, they privatize state owned socialized public assets under duress and at the barrel of a gun and sell them off to the highest bidder.
This just in: Saddam Hussein is a socialist! Nationalisation of state assets isn't in it of itself a left wing policy, dipshit.

Read Engels

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm

<But, the transformation — either into joint-stock companies and trusts, or into State-ownership — does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies and trusts, this is obvious. And the modern State, again, is only the organization that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution.

So unless Russia is entering a DOTP- it's still right wing.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 01:33:20 No.1605422

>>1604756
>1. rusich is literally a few dozen people according to western sources
Provide sources

>but there's less nazis in Russia compared to Ukraine
Again, not the point- im aware that there's Nazis in the Ukranian army- but why does that mean that an irridentist entity such as Russia which openly espouses and creates reactionary policies worthy of support?

>well they nationalised the resources
Ok and? This is nationalisation of resources under a far right wing org- not nationalisation under a left wing org.

Again, Read Engels.

<Whilst the capitalist mode of production more and more completely transforms the great majority of the population into proletarians, it creates the power which, under penalty of its own destruction, is forced to accomplish this revolution. Whilst it forces on more and more of the transformation of the vast means of production, already socialized, into State property, it shows itself the way to accomplishing this revolution. The proletariat seizes political power and turns the means of production into State property.

Unless Putin a crypto-communist all of a sudden?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 01:33:55 No.1605423

>>1605419
>This just in: Saddam Hussein is a socialist!
who said this, though? lula isn't a socialist either and yet he's still "left-wing" both in brazil and compared to foreign leaders
they're just saying he's to the left of the US/EU, and that's objectively correct

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:03:19 No.1605432

>still right wing.
>>1604649
>I don't see how Russia is at all "less right wing" than Ukraine

>>1605419
>socialist!
>>1605103

>>1605419
>isn't in it of itself a left wing policy
>>1605139

You really need to explain what you mean by left wing and right wing. This is the sixth or seventh time I have had to ask you.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:13:32 No.1605436

>>1605423
Again, state ownership in it of itself isn't "left wing"- much like how advocating for LGBTQ/Womens issues in it of itself isn't fully left wing either. State control/ autocracy has been a staple of russian conservatism for centuries.
Stop thinking like an American.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_Russia

What determines it being "left wing" is what the political body seeks to achieve- i.e the end goal. What do they hope to "progress" towards?

The reason why I would consider Lula left wing is because he more or less wants to achieve a form of social-democracy, and Lula has at least made allusions to the "21st century socialism" that was the talking point of many Latin american progressives.

<In Lula’s speech at the first PT national convention:

<There are many people who ask: What is the PT ideology? What does the PT think about the future society? Those who ask such questions, at the same time, advance their own interpretations, which in some cases aim to criticize the party. Wouldn’t the PT be just one more labor party? Is the PT not just a social democratic party, interested in seeking palliatives for the inequalities of capitalism? We know where these doubts and interpretations come from. And we know this even because they are shared by some militants of the party itself, who built for themselves the strange theory that the PT is a front or a purely tactical party.

<What is important to note here is that these questions only serve to express distrust in relation to the political capacity of Brazilian workers to define their own path. They are doubts of those who demand, from now on, a recipe from the future society; doubts about who offers the dish that the workers should eat. They are doubts of those who are far from the concrete tasks of popular struggles, those who have not yet learned to live with the people, much less to feel what the people feel.

<We, from the PT, know that the world is moving toward socialism. The workers who took the historic initiative to propose the creation of the PT already knew this long before they even had the idea of the need for the party. And, for this reason, we also know that it is false to say that the workers, in their spontaneity, are not capable of moving on to the level of the parties’ struggle, and must limit themselves to simple economic demands.

<In the same way, we know that it is false to say that Brazilian workers, left to their own devices, will deviate from the path of a fair, free, and egalitarian society. Workers are the most exploited in today’s society. That’s why we feel it in our own flesh and we want, with all our strength, a society that, as our program says, will have to be a society without exploiters. What society is this if not socialist?
"We want, with all our strength, a society without exploiters. What society is this if not socialist?"

<But the problem is not just this. It is not enough for someone to say that he wants socialism. The big question is: Which socialism? Are we, by any chance, obliged to follow without questioning the first socialist theorist who knocks on our door? Are we, by any chance, obliged to follow this or that model adopted in this country?

<We, the Workers’ Party, want to maintain the best friendly relations with all the parties in the world that fight for democracy and socialism. This has been the criterion that guides and will continue to guide our international contacts. A measure of political independence, fully understood in all the countries where we travel, which we must declare here in respect of the truth and as a tribute to all friendly parties. We will continue, with complete independence, solving our problems in our way.

<We know we are moving toward socialism, the kind of socialism that suits us. We know that it is not convenient for us, nor is it on our horizon, to adopt the idea of socialism to seek palliative measures for the social ills caused by capitalism or to manage the crisis in which this economic system finds itself. We also know that it is not convenient for us to adopt bureaucratic socialism as a perspective, which caters more to the new castes of technocrats and the privileged than to workers and the people.

<The socialism that we want will be defined by all the people, as a concrete demand of popular struggles and as a global political and economic response to all the concrete aspirations that the PT is capable of facing. It would be straightforward, sitting here comfortably, in the precincts of the Senate of the Republic, to decide on one definition or the other. It would be too easy and too wrong. The socialism we want will not be born of a decree, either ours or anyone else’s.

<The socialism that we want will be defined in day-to-day struggles in the same way that we are building the PT. The socialism we want will have to be the emancipation of the workers. And the workers’ liberation will be the work of the workers themselves.

Point to me where Putin has advocated anything similar to that.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:17:08 No.1605437

File: 1695435428136.gif (2.8 MB, 480x270, 1694736743273104.gif)

>>1605436
So with that in mind- what exactly is Russia "progressing" to?
What have they done to increase or progress the rights of its citizens?
The answer is simple: they haven't done anything because they're not progressive.
They are reactionary.
And no amount of "state ownership" is going to change that- much like how now amount of LGBTQ representation politics is going to prevent the US from being reactionary (not that their most recent anti-women/anti-lgbtq bills are any indicator of this)

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:30:37 No.1605442

>>1605436
>State control has been a staple of russian conservatism
are you mixing up "authoritarian" with "right wing"?

>>1605437
>What have they done to increase or progress the rights of its citizens?
Nationalized private industry to pay for public works projects pensions and healthcare. Maybe you are misidentifying the level of development Russia has reached since the 90s and expect them to be on the level of a developed imperialist power, which they are not, or maybe there are valid critiques of what they could be doing better, but they are making progress.

>>1605437
>They are reactionary.
What is the historical economic mode of production and material relations they are trying to restore? Is praising the Tsar material proof of a return to feudal relations of production? Are aesthetics the determining factor in political economy?

>>1605436
>What determines it being "left wing" is the ideas people have in their heads not that material steps they take to achieve those ideas. What matters is hope and wants.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:31:27 No.1605444

>>1605437
The only thing Putin has done correctly in Russia was stabilizing the country after the shithole that Yeltsin threw the country in after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Russia has not and will not become anything "more" than that with Putin. China on the other hand look at it today? The second most powerful country in the world and economically arguably the strongest and on track to building interesting alternatives to what has been the bullshit IMF and shit. Do believe Russia should be policed? No, but they are run by a bunch of bullshit fags.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:37:26 No.1605445

>>1605442
>are you mixing up "authoritarian" with "right wing"?
No, im pointing out that State control in it of itself isn't left wing- as per what Engels argues against and what Russia argues for

<Nationalized private industry to pay for public works projects pensions and healthcare. Maybe you are misidentifying the level of development Russia has reached since the 90s and expect them to be on the level of a developed imperialist power, which they are not, or maybe there are valid critiques of what they could be doing better, but they are making progress.
This just in, Otto Von Bismarck is progressive!
<expect them to be on the level of a developed imperialist power
The fact that Russia is outproducing the US in terms of armaments should indicate otherwise.
Again, read Engels-

<the modern State, again, is only the organization that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution.

so no, Russia is not "progressive" for nationalising its resources.

<What determines it being "left wing" is the ideas people have in their heads not that material steps they take to achieve those ideas. What matters is hope and wants.

Not remotely what im saying- if you bothered to read I say
<Again, state ownership in it of itself isn't "left wing"- much like how advocating for LGBTQ/Womens issues in it of itself isn't fully left wing either.

Furthermore, you've pretty much owned yourself owing to the socially reactionary policies that Putin has placed into power.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:40:06 No.1605446

>>1605444
>Russia has not and will not become anything "more" than that with Putin.
Which is precisely my point- they are not progressive.
>China on the other hand look at it today? The second most powerful country in the world and economically arguably the strongest and on track to building interesting alternatives to what has been the bullshit IMF and shit.
Hence why China is more deserving of our critical support and arguably has/continues to be the biggest force that's bringing the multipolar change- that and the military coups in West Africa overthrowing the French colonial project which are apparently being lead by Sankarists

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:48:02 No.1605448

>>1605436
>>1605437
no investigation, no right to speak, stop commenting on shit you've only "experienced" through video essays on youtube, retardado do caralho
>The reason why I would consider Lula left wing is because he more or less wants to achieve a form of social-democracy
can you name a single policy change enacted by the current lula administration to advance towards this goal? so far we've only seen a continuation of neoliberalism and the maintenance of the privatization policies that started under temer and bolsonaro
is lula just saying "in PT we're communists and socialists bro trust me" during a Foro de São Paulo meeting enough to make you cream your westoid panties?
lula is vastly superior to any of the alternatives we had in the 2022 elections, but to quote mine some bullshit quote about PT "moving towards socialism" is just peak dishonesty
>and Lula has at least made allusions to the "21st century socialism" that was the talking point of many Latin american progressives.
1. "21st century socialism" is not a real thing, it's just neoliberalism and social "democracy"
2. the fucking irony of telling me to "stop thinking like an american" while at the same time calling the pink tide neoliberals and social democrats "progressives"
their governments are not "progressive" in the sense that they are progressing towards a change in the mode of production, their administrations are just the continuation of bourgois rule to maintain resource extraction to the imperial core
putin is to the left of joe biden, putin is to the left of the EU walking sarcophagi who want to maintain their hegemony
i would gladly take this anti-communist romanov-lover retard who blames conflict between the former soviet republics on "bolshevik misdoings" for the nationalization policies over some "commie-sympathizing" """progressive""" in latin america that bows down to finance capital and the dominance of agricultural/resource exports over developing industry

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 02:53:52 No.1605450

File: 1695437631912.png (289.93 KB, 474x314, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1605446
>that and the military coups in West Africa
gee i wonder where the russian-speaking slavs holding AKs that contributed to those coups came from
im having a really hard time trying to figure this one out

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:08:29 No.1605459

>>1605445
>per what Engels argues against
Engels wasn't saying if state ownership is good or bad he is just describing what happens when you do it, and he is specifically saying that communists have to do it despite it increasing exploitation. He is not saying that state ownership isn't real communism, he is saying that real communism will look exactly like capitalism in the beginning. And that isn't to say that state ownership is communism, but it is the one of the first steps communists will take and its not a bad thing if the bourgeoisie wants to do it for us. Consolidation of production into a single state monopoly makes a socialist electoral or bloodless coup a real possibility.

>so no, Russia is not "progressive"
It is more progressive than the Ukraine, and the US, and the EU.

I don't get how you don't understand this. The entire break between the west and Russia was caused by Putin buying out shares from BP and Exxon in Russian oil companies and transferring them to state control as a direct response to the 2008 NATO expansion. And now they are in Ukraine writing legislation to ban communist party and unions and sell off pensions and publicly owned factories to private investors and you are calling Russia more "far right-wing".

>No, im pointing out that State control in it of itself isn't left wing
I'm trying to put things simply for you to get the point across, but basically yes it is. If we are going to assume that left/right is even a useful distinction then the single defining characteristic is how much economic control is private vs public.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:17:57 No.1605463

File: 1695439077158.jpg (6.34 MB, 4500x3263, 1646554217728.jpg)

>>1604649
>So how do you explain the Rusich group? It is listed as a para-military org- much like how Azov is listed as one in Ukraine.

You are double dipping. Rusich is a single unit inside Wagner which is not even part of the Russian Army, while Azov is. Do you have proof that any other unit in Wagner even has nazi affiliation? Also you forgot the other 20 nazi brigades in the Ukraine Army and the nazi government ministers and cabinet members.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:20:00 No.1605465

File: 1695439200442.jpg (47.45 KB, 716x716, 1695059154656847.jpg)

>>1605448
>no investigation, no right to speak, stop commenting on shit you've only "experienced" through video essays on youtube, retardado do caralho
I've literally provided the investigation and the articles to back it- not my fault that you're sticking your head in the ground like a fuckwit.

<can you name a single policy change enacted by the current lula administration to advance towards this goal? so far we've only seen a continuation of neoliberalism and the maintenance of the privatization policies that started under temer and bolsonaro

I'll give you three

https://news.mongabay.com/2023/01/president-lulas-first-pro-environment-acts-protect-indigenous-people-and-the-amazon/

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/08/brazil-makes-homophobic-hate-speech-punishable-with-a-prison-sentence/

https://www.laprensalatina.com/brazils-lula-re-launches-program-known-for-lifting-millions-out-of-poverty/

<ur a westoid

Cope.

>1. "21st century socialism" is not a real thing, it's just neoliberalism and social "democracy"
the latter of which is infinetely more progressive than what Putin is doing. And yes, it absolutely is a real thing- it's being practised in Bolivia as we speak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_of_the_21st_century

>the fucking irony of telling me to "stop thinking like an american" while at the same time calling the pink tide neoliberals and social democrats "progressives"
Except they're not neo-libs, and a social democrat is infinitely more progressive than a Russian conservative.
Again- state ownership in it of itself isn't progressive, unless there's a goal towards a more progressive social policy.
Again, read engels.

<Whilst the capitalist mode of production more and more completely transforms the great majority of the population into proletarians, it creates the power which, under penalty of its own destruction, is forced to accomplish this revolution. Whilst it forces on more and more of the transformation of the vast means of production, already socialized, into State property, it shows itself the way to accomplishing this revolution. The proletariat seizes political power and turns the means of production into State property.

<But, in doing this, it abolishes itself as proletariat, abolishes all class distinction and class antagonisms, abolishes also the State as State. Society, thus far, based upon class antagonisms, had need of the State. That is, of an organization of the particular class which was, pro tempore, the exploiting class, an organization for the purpose of preventing any interference from without with the existing conditions of production, and, therefore, especially, for the purpose of forcibly keeping the exploited classes in the condition of oppression corresponding with the given mode of production (slavery, serfdom, wage-labor). The State was the official representative of society as a whole; the gathering of it together into a visible embodiment. But, it was this only in so far as it was the State of that class which itself represented, for the time being, society as a whole:

<in ancient times, the State of slaveowning citizens;
<in the Middle Ages, the feudal lords;
<in our own times, the bourgeoisie.

>their governments are not "progressive" in the sense that they are progressing towards a change in the mode of production, their administrations are just the continuation of bourgois rule to maintain resource extraction to the imperial core

Bullshit, as proven by the environmentalist/ indigenous policies which are curtailing such resource extraction.

So either you're an illiterate or a liar. But given the way you're talking, you're more likely both. But, please do call me a "westoid" because I don't view Russian conservatism/ state control as "progressive"

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:21:18 No.1605467

File: 1695439278668.jpg (301.55 KB, 1200x508, 3b6334a14399791ee95afca928….jpg)

>>1605465

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:25:05 No.1605469

File: 1695439505008.jpg (34.54 KB, 500x374, 5c96c26a1247679661a95b65db….jpg)

>>1605459
>Engels wasn't saying if state ownership is good or bad he is just describing what happens when you do it, and he is specifically saying that communists have to do it despite it increasing exploitation.

Again, liar

<But, the transformation — either into joint-stock companies and trusts, or into State-ownership — does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies and trusts, this is obvious. And the modern State, again, is only the organization that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution.

<This solution can only consist in the practical recognition of the social nature of the modern forces of production, and therefore in the harmonizing with the socialized character of the means of production. And this can only come about by society openly and directly taking possession of the productive forces which have outgrown all control, except that of society as a whole. The social character of the means of production and of the products today reacts against the producers, periodically disrupts all production and exchange, acts only like a law of Nature working blindly, forcibly, destructively. But,with the taking over by society of the productive forces, the social character of the means of production and of the products will be utilized by the producers with a perfect understanding of its nature, and instead of being a source of disturbance and periodical collapse, will become the most powerful lever of production itself.

>It is more progressive than the Ukraine, and the US, and the EU.
There are countries in the EU that arguably have more progressive policies than the Ukraine, the US and Russia combined- Portugal and Spain being a prime examples- yet I wouldn't go as far to shill for them considering that they're both NATO members and only play a part in upholding global capitalism. Russia being more "economically progressive" This isn't exactly the "achievement" you think it is, considering again the only argument you made was "state ownership is progressive"- which, as pointed out by Engels, it isn't- if maintained under a bourgoise state- which Russia is.

>>1605467
Cope.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:29:51 No.1605471

File: 1695439791297.jpg (54.19 KB, 500x616, 1694743891918952.jpg)

>>1605469
And to add further salt to the wound
More Engels

<In the trusts, freedom of competition changes into its very opposite — into monopoly; and the production without any definite plan of capitalistic society capitulates to the production upon a definite plan of the invading socialistic society. Certainly, this is so far still to the benefit and advantage of the capitalists. But, in this case, the exploitation is so palpable, that it must break down. No nation will put up with production conducted by trusts, with so barefaced an exploitation of the community by a small band of dividend-mongers.

<In any case, with trusts or without, the official representative of capitalist society — the state — will ultimately have to undertake the direction of production. [4] This necessity for conversion into State property is felt first in the great institutions for intercourse and communication — the post office, the telegraphs, the railways.

<If the crises demonstrate the incapacity of the bourgeoisie for managing any longer modern productive forces, the transformation of the great establishments for production and distribution into joint-stock companies, trusts, and State property, show how unnecessary the bourgeoisie are for that purpose. All the social functions of the capitalist has no further social function than that of pocketing dividends, tearing off coupons, and gambling on the Stock Exchange, where the different capitalists despoil one another of their capital. At first, the capitalistic mode of production forces out the workers. Now, it forces out the capitalists, and reduces them, just as it reduced the workers, to the ranks of the surplus-population, although not immediately into those of the industrial reserve army.

<But, the transformation — either into joint-stock companies and trusts, or into State-ownership — does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies and trusts, this is obvious. And the modern State, again, is only the organization that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution.

Again, state ownership =/= progressive policy

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:32:13 No.1605472

>>1605469
>Again, liar
Posting it again doesn't make you less wrong. You probably also think exploitation means 'bad' instead of a technical term referring to economic use.

>There are countries in the EU that arguably have more progressive policies
I'm talking about the political entity known as the European Union and its policies.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:33:03 No.1605473

>>1605472
>ur wrong
Read >>1605471

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:36:42 No.1605475

>>1605473
You are going to need to rewrite what you are trying to say in your own words because these quotes are completely unrelated to the topic. Maybe you want to go over the pre-requisites for EU membership and we can evaluate how progressive it is to privatize healthcare?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:48:03 No.1605477

>Russia being more "economically progressive"
There isn't another type of progressive then economically progressive.

>as pointed out by Engels, it isn't- if maintained under a bourgoise state- which Russia is.
Thats not what he said and its really fucking annoying that you keep reposting it. If you want to do this I can just keep spamming Stalin calling you a liberal.

>The question is as follows: Are the revolutionary potentialities latent in the revolutionary liberation movement of the oppressed countries already exhausted, or not; and if not, is there any hope, any basis, for utilising these potentialities for the proletarian revolution, for transforming the dependent and colonial countries from a reserve of the imperialist bourgeoisie into a reserve of the revolutionary proletariat, into an ally of the latter?

>Leninism replies to this question in the affirmative, i.e., it recognises the existence of revolutionary capacities in the national liberation movement of the oppressed countries, and the possibility of using these for overthrowing the common enemy, for overthrowing imperialism. The mechanics of the development of imperialism, the imperialist war and the revolution in Russia wholly confirm the conclusions of Leninism on this score.

<Hence the necessity for the proletariat of the "dominant" nations to support-resolutely and actively to support-the national liberation movement of the oppressed and dependent peoples.

<This does not mean, of course, that the proletariat must support every national movement, everywhere and always, in every individual concrete case. It means that support must be given to such national movements as tend to weaken, to overthrow imperialism, and not to strengthen and preserve it. Cases occur when the national movements in certain oppressed countries came into conflict with the interests of the development of the proletarian movement. In such cases support is, of course, entirely out of the question.

>The question of the rights of nations is not an isolated, self-sufficient question; it is a part of the general problem of the proletarian revolution, subordinate to the whole, and must be considered from the point of view of the whole. In the forties of the last century Marx supported the national movement of the Poles and Hungarians and was opposed to the national movement of the Czechs and the South Slavs. Why? Because the Czechs and the South Slavs were then "reactionary peoples," "Russian outposts" in Europe, outposts of absolutism; whereas the Poles and the Hungarians were "revolutionary peoples," fighting against absolutism. Because support of the national movement of the Czechs and the South Slavs was at that time equivalent to indirect support for tsarism, the most dangerous enemy of the revolutionary movement in Europe.

<"The various demands of democracy," writes Lenin, "including self-determination, are not an absolute, but a small part of the general democratic (now: general socialist) world movement. In individual concrete cases, the part may contradict the whole, if so, it must be rejected" (https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jul/x01.htm).

>This is the position in regard to the question of particular national movements, of the possible reactionary character of these movements-if, of course,

<they are appraised not from the formal point of view, not from the point of view of abstract rights, but concretely, from the point of view of the interests of the revolutionary movement.

>The same must be said of the revolutionary character of national movements in general. The unquestionably revolutionary character of the vast majority of national movements is as relative and peculiar as is the possible revolutionary character of certain particular national movements.

>The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the existence of a democratic basis of the movement.

>The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism;

>whereas the struggle waged by such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism.

>For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism;

<whereas the struggle that the British "Labour" Government is waging to preserve Egypt's dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are "for" socialism.

>There is no need to mention the national movement in other, larger, colonial and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is undoubtedly a revolutionary step.

>Lenin was right in saying that the national movement of the oppressed countries should be appraised not from the point of view of formal democracy, but from the point of view of the actual results,
<as shown by the general balance sheet of the struggle against imperialism, that is to say, "not in isolation, but on a world scale" (https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jul/x01.htm).

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/foundations-leninism/ch06.htm

>>1605471
How does this show that Ukraine is more progressive and left wing than the far right Russians?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:52:12 No.1605478

File: 1695441131813.gif (1.95 MB, 498x406, putin drinking your tears.gif)

>>1605473
is russia more progresive than america, ukraine and europe? yes
is putin to the left of joe biden? yes
is putin to the left of zelensky? yes
is putin to the left of the EU corpses? yes
is putin an anti-communist? yes

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:52:23 No.1605479

>>1605448
>Putin
>Left wing
Hahahahahahahaha haha
Haha haha hahahahahahaha

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 03:56:44 No.1605482

Putin is Gaullist, no I will not explain

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:02:20 No.1605485

File: 1695441740289.gif (659.27 KB, 174x155, 1694743919257349.gif)

>>1605475
>changing the subject this hard after getting owned
>still trying to put words in my mouth implying that i think privitisation is progressive
Maybe you want to go over the pre-requisites of having a battle of wits- considering that you came to one unarmed. Because if you had any and were paying attention- the whole point of the argument was, state ownership isn't progressive, one as espoused by Engels and two, it being a policy with Russian conservatism.

To also answer this anons question
>>1605478

In relation to certain EU countries having more progressive health care systems than Putin- including Portugal and spain, in the case of Portugal- they legalise gender affirming care to the people- On 24 May 2016, the Left Bloc introduced a bill to allow legal gender change solely based on self-determination. (to add more salt, you don't have to pay fees to get a booking https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/government-to-scrap-fees-in-the-nhs/50009

In Spain In November 2006, the Zapatero Government passed a law that allows transgender people to register under their preferred sex in public documents such as birth certificates, identity cards and passports without undergoing prior surgical change. However a professional diagnosis is still required. The law came into effect on 17 March 2007. In July 2019, the Constitutional Court of Spain declared that prohibiting transgender minors from accessing legal gender changes is unconstitutional. The court ruled that transgender minors who are "mature enough" may register their new sex on their identity cards, and struck down the article of the 2007 legislation that limited this possibility only to those over 18. The first minor to change his legal gender did so in December 2019.

A new bill was approved in June 2022 by the Spanish government that would grant permission for people above 16 to change their gender without restrictions, and for people between 12 and 16 under certain conditions.The bill was promoted by the left-wing Unidas Podemos party

what does Russia do with its "public health care"? Oh that's right.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/24/vladimir-putin-signs-law-banning-gender-changes-in-russia

But would we therefore call Spain and Portugal "progressive" as a whole? No. Because they are a part of NATO and part of an imperialist alliance that seeks to maintain western hegemony.
But these two countries are arguably more progressive as they exist now in comparison to Russia.

>>1605477
>spamming Stalin and calling you a retard
Again, how is anything you're posting remotely related to the topic at hand- because this is about state ownership, not national sovereignty.
Are you this illiterate or are you being stupid on purpose?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:12:00 No.1605488

File: 1695442320330.jpg (1.3 KB, 122x125, 1693968032197631.jpg)

>>1605478
>more progresive than america, ukraine and europe? yes
Lol, no- as pointed in comparison to Spain and Portugal- and arguably Ireland. Europe isn't a monolith.

>Is putin to the left of joe biden? Yes
No- as we've established state ownership =/= progressive character. Just because Biden says some soft language around LGBTQ people and minorities doesn't mean he's any less of a reactionary- he merely wants to incorporate them into the status quo and maintain the American state with hardly any meaningful reforms.

>is putin to the left of zelensky?
Again, in what way? Not saying Zelensky is a progressive, but how is Putin any more "progressive" in comparison to Zelensky outside of resisting NATO expansion and nationalising resources- which again- isn't entirely progressive in it of itself.

>is putin to the left of the EU corpses. Yes
Lol no. So he's more progressive than Ireland now? Again, as we've established state-ownership isn't progressive in it of itself.

>is putin an anti-communist? yes
Only correct thing said here.

Christ alive people, it's always the same with these multipolarista threads.
>Oh you don't support x, well then you're CLEARLY a supporter of Y!

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:12:25 No.1605490

>>1605485
aaaaand we're back to talking about gender, very cool
apparently nationalizing industry and attempting to break off from western finance capital is not progressive for you, but allowing gender changes for some reason are to you
to be clear i consider both of them to be progressive policies

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:13:30 No.1605491

>>1605485
>>changing the subject this hard after getting owned
Are you trying to make me say no you? This started because you said Ukraine is more progressive than Russia while Ukraine is the world poster-child of privatization and you keep changing the topic to go down rabbit holes and laser focus on minute points and spamming walls of text while refusing to understand the broader picture all while simultaneously refusing to extrapolate on your own position. At this point I'm going to have to assume you are being deliberately disruptive and trolling in bad faith. These topics have been explained to you in depth by multiple people and by me personally multiple times and you just go back to reposting the same points the next day again and again and promising to read rebuttals at some indeterminate point in the future. It really gives off the impression that you aren't here to learn or discuss things but instead are actively trying to derail productive discussion by drowning out everyone else with your nonsense.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:13:49 No.1605492

>>1605488
>No- as we've established state ownership =/= progressive character.
who's we? you repeating it over and over won't make it true
you're correct that it is not necessarily progressive, but in the current context russia is in it absolutely IS progressive

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:19:55 No.1605496

File: 1695442795540.jpg (48 KB, 326x245, 1694743687137186.jpg)

>>1605490
>aaaaand we're back to talking about gender, very cool
Not an argument- Putins reactionary social policies (especially in relation to health care) are indictative that state-ownership isn't progressive .

And Again, as we've pointed out nationalising industry/ state ownership isn't progressive in it of itself.
And nationalisation/ state ownership/ resistance to western globalism has been a staple for Russian conservatism for decades- if not centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_Russia

>>1605492
>in the current context russia is in it absolutely IS progressive
Except it isn't.

>>1605491
This started because you said Ukraine is more progressive than Russia
I said no such fucking thing you absolute liar.
I said why should we be supportive of Russia when they collaborate with nazis, which then lead to others stating "well they nationalised industry" which again, isn't progressive in it of itself.

If you're going to keep on lying about my positions- and you're going to continue to be an illiterate dickhead we've got nothing left to discuss.

>At this point I'm going to have to assume you are being deliberately disruptive and trolling in bad faith.
Methink the anon doth protest too much.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:23:57 No.1605500

>>1605422
>>1. rusich is literally a few dozen people according to western sources
>Provide sources
https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-61668126

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:24:14 No.1605501

File: 1695443054791.gif (816.7 KB, 245x168, 1694736133415351.gif)

>>1605496
It was also then followed up by appeals to "lesser evilism" because Russia has less nazis than Ukraine.
Again, if people like you actually bothered to read- im fully aware of the Neo Nazi presence in Ukraine- what i don't understand is why we're viewing Russia as progressive- and the best "argument" was- "because they nationalise industry" which again, isn't a progressive policy in it of itself unless headed by a progressive political force- which Russia isn't.

The utter gaslighting done ITT is amazing. What's next, you're going to accuse me of saying "NATO is good actually?"

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:25:03 No.1605502

>>1605500
Thanks anon, i'll run it through a translator and give it a read.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:26:41 No.1605503

>>1605496
carrying water for nazi groups like azov by downplaying the influence they have in ukraine by calling them "just paramilitary bro" while at the same time saying russia "collaborates with nazis" because of rusich, a group of literally a few dozen people whose leader was arrested in russia
libs never change

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:27:49 No.1605504

>>1605502
you've been linked this before countless times, just under a different flag i guess
you're not going to read shit, you will continue to claim russia is collaborating with nazis while downplaying shit like azov because you're asshurt about putler's gender policies

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:38:13 No.1605508

>>1605503
Again, how is calling Azov battalion a para-military "downplaying" Ukraine's collaboration with Nazis or the fact that I acknowledged the neo-nazi presence in the Ukraine gov.

Because the point is- it doesn't matter if they're a para-military or not- they still knowingly collaborate with them. I even mentioned and provided evidence that the Russian state also trained Rusich and other neo-nazi groups.

Same logic applies to Azov- it wouldn't matter if they were a para-military or not- they're still utilised by the state to further their own purposes. How is this "downplaying" Ukrainian Neo-Nazism?
If you're having this much of a kvetch over me calling Azov "a paramilitary" and thinking that's downplaying Ukraines collaboration with Neo-nazis i don't know what to tell you.

>but they're not a para-military
Again, not the point. Nazi collaboration- even in the forms of para-military orgs is still fucked and ought to be pointed out- regardless of its done by Ukraine or Russia.

If anything you're the one who's downplaying this collaboration- not me, but seeing as gaslighting is a typical tactic used by posters ITT, i shouldn't expect anything more

>>1605504
Making more lies up- this is the first time i've seen the bbc article.
>but you won't read
Much like how you don't read Engels or keep up to date with what Lula was doing which ran antithetical to him "upholding bolsanaros policies"? as mentioned here?
>>1605448
In comparisson to you and everyone else ITT with the exception of Sabo anon- i like my odds.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:40:05 No.1605509

>>1605496
>I said no such fucking thing you absolute liar.

>>1604649
>I don't see how Russia is at all "less right wing" than Ukraine

>>1605496
>If you're going to keep on lying about my position

You made your position pretty clear.

>>1605436
>>What determines it being "left wing" is the ideas people have in their heads not that material steps they take to achieve those ideas.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:43:02 No.1605510

>>1605508
>how is calling Azov battalion a para-military "downplaying" Ukraine's collaboration with Nazis
it's downplaying their influence over the ukrainian government because they're not just smol bean paramilitarinos like the few dozen rusich retards, they are a brigade of the ukrainian army and have officials high up in positions of power
>claiming im not up to date on lula's policies
im brazilian you faggot, i don't get my news on lula's policies by reading reddit or lgbtqnation.com, i know the good and bad things his government has been doing
this shit you linked for example is retarded https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/08/brazil-makes-homophobic-hate-speech-punishable-with-a-prison-sentence/ lula didn't do anything to bring this about, it was a supreme court ruling, it makes no sense to bring it up

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:46:47 No.1605511

>>1605501
>It was also then followed up by appeals to "lesser evilism" because Russia has less nazis than Ukraine.
This is a strawman. The Russian state isn't controlled by nazis and the Ukrainian state is.

>>1605508
>How is this "downplaying" Ukrainian Neo-Nazism?
Because they are not a para-military they are an official part of the real military and because they are one of dozens of such nazi brigades officially incorporated into the military.
>downplaying Ukraines collaboration with Neo-nazis
You misunderstand. Its not called collaboration when the state itself is nazi. Most Ukrainians don't even support their nazi occupation. Also referring to it as neo-nazism is downplaying their nazism. There is nothing neo about it, the organizations controlling Ukraine were part of the original actual nazis.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:48:47 No.1605513

>>1605511
>Also referring to it as neo-nazism is downplaying their nazism. There is nothing neo about it, the organizations controlling Ukraine were part of the original actual nazis.
this, literally lmfao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists#2019_official_veteran_status
<In late March 2019 former OUN combatants (and other living former members of irregular Ukrainian nationalist armed groups that were active during World War II and the first decade after the war) were officially granted the status of veterans.
veteran status to ww2 nazis that are still alive, you can't make this shit up

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:52:33 No.1605515

>>1605513 (me)
<This meant that for the first time they could receive veteran benefits, including free public transport, subsidized medical services, annual monetary aid, and public utilities discounts (and will enjoy the same social benefits as former Ukrainian soldiers Red Army of the Soviet Union).
free healthcare, transport and other benefits to literal ww2 nazi soldiers, privatization and austerity for proles
liberalism moment

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 04:56:34 No.1605518

>>1605511
> the organizations controlling Ukraine were part of the original actual nazis

And whats more is that these people would have been put in jail in the Soviet Union if the US didn't send special forces to extract known SS Nazi war criminals and bring them to the US. I'm much less worried about the disorganized uneducated nazi thug in the street then the wealthy industrial nazi who gives him and his friends a crate of guns. Collaboration through materially supporting and harboring actual genociders and nurturing them for decades to help them grow is significantly worse than just using existing hooligans as a militia. If we are talking about collaborators the biggest one by a mile is NATO.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:00:13 No.1605519

File: 1695445209748.jpg (187.83 KB, 926x1400, 1694735533621545.jpg)

Seriously this is all it boils down to-
> russia is reactionary, anti-communist, and state nationalisation isn't progressive, and neither is collaborating with Nazis…
<but le ukraine is much worse!
>Im not saying that they're better, but why should we throw our hat behind a state which is far from progressive
<Ur le downplaying
>how is pointing out nazi collaboration- however small it may be, downplaying
<well because they're not part of the russian government
>The russian government which trained them and is already choc-full of far right wing reactionaries?
<ur downplaying nazis in ukraine!
and so on.

>>1605509
Again, this is no indication of me "downplaying" Ukraines neo-nazism. If you read that post I said:

>I said why should we be supportive of Russia when they collaborate with nazis, which then lead to others stating "well they nationalised industry" which again, isn't progressive in it of itself.

If you're referring to me saying
>This started because you said Ukraine is more progressive than Russia
That's because i was attempting to green text it. Again, why do you insist on lying?

And if you bothered reading you'd know the context of "i don't see how russia is at all "less right wing" than ukraine-
Because as i mentioned they repress communists

https://www.idcommunism.com/2018/09/a-political-chernobyl-russian-communists-denounce-electoral-fraud-by-the-pro-putin-forces-in-vladivostok.html

https://www.idcommunism.com/2021/07/what-does-putin-fear-communist-party-candidate-banned-from-running-in-duma-elections.html

and much like Ukraine also treat LGBTQ people like shit.

So again, you're still lying.

>What determines it being "left wing" is the ideas people have in their heads not that material steps they take to achieve those ideas.

That's you coming to that conclusion- not me.

So just to be clear- the only thing you're capable of doing is lying and taking me out of context.

pathetic.

>it's downplaying their influence over the ukrainian government because they're not just smol bean paramilitarinos like the few dozen rusich retards, they are a brigade of the ukrainian army and have officials high up in positions of power

Again, since when did I downplay the Neo-nazi presence in Ukraine. Im fully aware that they are there.

>im brazilian you faggot, i don't get my news on lula's policies by reading reddit or lgbtqnation.com, i know the good and bad things his government has been doing
this shit you linked for example is retarded https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/08/brazil-makes-homophobic-hate-speech-punishable-with-a-prison-sentence/ lula didn't do anything to bring this about, it was a supreme court ruling, it makes no sense to bring it up

So you're also conveniently forgetting the environmental policies he's been starting to.
Kind of embarassing that i seem to know more about what your country is doing than you do.

:^)

>>1605511
>This is a strawman. The Russian state isn't controlled by nazis and the Ukrainian state is.
Again, hardly the point- considering Russia is still a far right org- it doesn't have to be Nazi to be worthy of condemnation or ire.

The lesser evil arguments are found with "oh well they're a few people". never mind the Russian government had a hand in training them as well as collaborating with other far right wing paramilitary forces.

>Because they are not a para-military they are an official part of the real military and because they are one of dozens of such nazi brigades officially incorporated into the military.

Again, how is this any worse?
>well russia doesn't have Nazis in their ranks
you're right, it's only filled with reactionaries, nationalists and irridentists- as if that makes it any better and we shouldn't view them with equal disdain considering that they don't pose a progressive force.

I'll make this clear- I view this form of conservatism with as much contempt as i do with fascism, duginism, neo-conservatism or nazism. There's no "lesser" evil here amongst them, even though there is certainly differences between them.

If you're wondering why im giving russia shit, i hope at least that may clarify why im not sold on them being "a progressive force"

> Also referring to it as neo-nazism is downplaying their nazism. There is nothing neo about it, the organizations controlling Ukraine were part of the original actual nazis.
How is exactly me calling them neo-nazis downplaying that considering that these orgs both have and in the case of Azov, continue to commit acts of genocide/ terrorism?

As if a neo-nazi and an orthodox nazi shouldn't be held in equal disdain.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:01:14 No.1605521

>>1605510
replied with

>>1605519

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:06:56 No.1605524

File: 1695445616462.png (80.14 KB, 409x500, time to kill westoids.png)

>>1605521
>Kind of embarassing that i seem to know more about what your country is doing than you do.
you know so much about latin america that you unironically fell for the "21st century socialism" and "PT socialism" shit because they're vaguely pro-lgbt or whatever
establishing the JDPON - Joint-Dictatorship of the Proletariat of Oppressed Nations is the only way forward i'm afraid, westoids can't be fixed otherwise

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:10:55 No.1605527

File: 1695445855115.mp4 (Spoiler Image, 31.07 MB, 1280x720, buttholeflag.mp4)

>>1605524
>ur only doing it cuz they're pro lgbtq
>conveniently forgets the other progressive policies that Lula and MAS have done
>accuses me of downplaying
Again, methinks the anon doth protest to much

Also
>butthole flag

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:11:52 No.1605528

>>1605519
Are you just a narcissist and wrecking by accident? Or are you a Agent Kochinski fan who thinks this posturing means you are winning? Or are you simply a real life glow in the dark fed?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:14:44 No.1605530

>>1585192
> if you bothered to read
>>1585219
>you can't read
>>1585030
>you would know this if you read
>>1584914
>Here, read this
>>1585100
> If you bothered to read
>>1585123
>I will read the sources
>>1585232
>Im going to read
>>1585249
>When I read
>>1605519
>And if you bothered reading
>>1605519
>If you read
>>1605508
>you don't read
>>1605502
>give it a read

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:24:23 No.1605534

File: 1695446663061.png (259.91 KB, 595x579, FzZ3Cy0aYAEJiOY-1533590253.png)

>>1605530
>if i try and cover for my illiteracy i win!
Not my fault you can't read anon.
>b-but you don't read
I do, you don't. Simple

>>1605528
>Are you just a narcissist and wrecking by accident? Or are you a Agent Kochinski fan who thinks this posturing means you are winning? Or are you simply a real life glow in the dark fed?

Cope. Russia isn't progressive.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:29:11 No.1605538

File: 1695446951164.jpg (36.75 KB, 623x615, multipolarista fact check.jpg)

>>1605534
russia is more progressive than america
putin is more progressive than joe biden
you can't deny this

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:42:08 No.1605544

File: 1695447728544.png (334.46 KB, 720x405, ClipboardImage.png)

>right wing reactionaries nationalists irridentists conservatism

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:42:35 No.1605545

File: 1695447755205.png (325.23 KB, 449x447, apocigerila.png)

>>1605538
I deny that Russia, much like America, is progressive.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:44:43 No.1605546

>The Progressive Character of Bourgeois Nationalism in Given Historical Conditions and the Marxist-Leninist Attitude Toward Such Nationalism

>Marxism-Leninism considers all questions in their historical settings. Marxism-Leninists view bourgeois nationalism under the given historical conditions. Drawing a distinction between its different objective roles, they decide what different attitudes the proletariat should take toward it.

>In the early period of capitalism, the national movement led by the bourgeoisie had as its objective the struggle against oppression by other nations and the creation of a national state. This national movement was historically progressive, and the proletariat supported it.

>In the present period, such bourgeois nationalism still exists in the colonial and semi-colonial countries. This variety of nationalism also has a certain objective progressive historical significance.

>The bourgeoisie of Europe, the United States, and Japan has established the imperialist system of colonial and semi-colonial oppression in many backward countries. In such colonial and semi-colonial countries as China, India, Korea, Indonesia, the Philippines, Viet-Nam, Burma, Egypt, etc., bourgeois nationalism naturally developed. This was because the national bourgeoisie in these countries has interests antagonistic in the first place to those of imperialism, and in the second place to those of the domestic backward feudal forces. Moreover, these feudal forces unite with imperialism in restricting and hampering the development of the national bourgeoisie. Therefore, the national bourgeoisie in these countries is revolutionary in a certain historical period and to a certain degree. Bourgeois nationalism in these countries has a decidedly progressive significance when the bourgeoisie mobilize the masses in the struggle against imperialism and the feudal forces. As Lenin pointed out (in a speech delivered at the Second Congress of the Eastern Peoples), nationalism of this type “ has historical justification ” . Therefore the proletariat, with the aim of overthrowing the rule of imperialism and the feudal forces, should collaborate with this bourgeois nationalism which plays a defiantly anti-imperialist and anti-feudal role provided, as Lenin said, that these allies do not hinder us in educating and organizing the peasantry and the broad masses of theexploited people in a revolutionary spirit. The clearest example of this type of collaboration was that which existed between the Chinese Communists and Sun Yat-sen.

>Sun Yat-sen’s nationalism was a form of bourgeois nationalism. The Three Person’s Principle of Sun Yat-sen, as Comrade Mao pointed out in his New Democracy, has undergone great changes in the two historical periods before and after the Russian October Socialist Revolution. In the former period, it came under the category of old democracy, that is, it remained within the scope of bourgeois democratic revolution of the old world and was a part of the bourgeois and capitalist world revolution. In the latter period, however, it belonged to New Democracy, that is it pertained to the scope of new bourgeois democratic revolution and was a part of the proletarian Socialist world revolution.

>Sun Yat-sen’s nationalism in the old democratic era had a dual character. His opposition to the current rulers of China, the Manchu Dynasty, had a progressive character. Yet the Greater Han-ism he advocated had a reactionary character. After the October Revolution, when China entered the New Democratic era, received help from the U.S.S.R. and from us Chinese Communists. He then revised his nationalism characterized by Greater Han-ism and turned toward revolutionary nationalism characterized by his active opposition to imperialist aggression and his adoption of the three policies of alliance with the Soviet Union, alliance with the Chinese Communist Party and support for the workers and peasants. He also advocated that “the Chinese nation should strive to liberate itself” and that “there should be equality for all nationalities within the country” (Declaration of the First Congress of the Kuomintang). Thus he turned toward New Democracy and we Communists therefore adopted the policy of collaborating with him. This collaboration was absolutely correct and necessary for national liberation and was in accord with the interests of the proletariat at the time, even though it was an unreliable, temporary and unstable alliance which was later undermined by the shameless betrayers of Dr. Yat-sen’s cause.

>Although Sun Yat-sen’s world outlook at the time was still of a bourgeois of petty-bourgeois character, and although his nationalism was still a form of bourgeois nationalism preserving some reactionary features (for instance, his concepts of so-called “common blood” “state and nation” and “Greater Asianism” etc.), nevertheless he stood for the doctrine of a national revolution which called for “arousing the people and uniting in a common struggle with all nations in the world who treat us as equals.” He also put into effect the three great policies of alliance with the U.S.S.R.. alliance with the Chinese Communist Party and support for workers and peasants. This was an excellent illustration of the progressive character of revolutionary bourgeois nationalism in colonial and semi-colonial countries during the new era of world Socialist revolution. It was of enormous revolutionary significance.

>However, shortly after Sun Yat-sen’s death, the brazen betrayers of his cause - the representatives of the big bourgeoisie such as Chiang Kai-shek, Wang Ching-wei and other reactionary leaders of the Kuomintang - began to turn Sun Yat-sen’s doctrine of national revolution toward the opposite and extremely counter-revolutionary direction. They swung from the anti-imperialist struggle to capitulation to imperialism, from alliance with the Soviet Union to struggling against it, from unity with the Chinese Communist Party to attacks on the Party, from supporting the workers and the peasants to slaughtering them. Moreover, they used the conservative and reactionary features of Sun Yat-sen’s nationalism as their anti-national banner. It therefore became necessary for the Communist party, in order to defend the interests of the nation, to adopt a firm policy of opposition to the Kuomintang reactionaries, who were headed by Chiang Kai-shek and Wang Ching-wei.

>Of course, the Communists in other colonial and semi-colonial countries such as India, Burma, Siam, the Philippines, Indonesia, Indo-China, South Korea, etc., must for the sake of their national interests similarly adopt a firm and irreconcilable policy against national betrayal by the reactionary section of the bourgeoisie, which has already surrendered to imperialism. If this were not done, it would be a grave mistake.

>On the other hand, the communists in these countries should enter into an anti-imperialist alliance with that section of the national bourgeoisie which is still opposing imperialism and which does not oppose the anti-imperialist struggle of the masses of the people. Should the Communists fail to do so in earnest, should they to the contrary, oppose or reject such an alliance, it would also constitute a grave mistake. Such an alliance must be established in all sincerity, even if should be of an unreliable, temporary and unstable nature.

>The experience of the revolution in other countries as well as in China fully confirms the correctness of the scientific Marxist-Leninist conclusion that the national question is closely linked with the class question and the national struggle within the class struggle. An historical analysis of class relations reveals why in certain periods, one country is oppressed by another and becomes a colony or semi-colony of imperialism; why national traitors may appear in such a country, not only from the ranks of the feudal classes, but also form the ranks of the bourgeoisie - for instance, form the ranks of compradore, bureaucratic bourgeoisie in China. Such an analysis also reveals under what conditions, and under the leadership of which class, national liberation can be achieved.

>An historical analysis of the class relations also reveals that although such outstanding national revolutionists as Sun Yat-sen sprang from China’s petty-bourgeoisie or national bourgeoisie, yet this bourgeoisie, generally speaking, views the national question solely in the light of its own narrow class interests and changes its position solely in accordance with its own class interests. In the same way, only the class interests of the proletariat are really in full accord with the fundamental interests of the people of a given country, with the common interests of all mankind. When the proletariat of an oppressed nation, as is the case of China, enters the arena of struggle and becomes the leader of the national liberation struggle against imperialism and the saviour of the whole nation, then every genuinely patriotic class, party, group or individual inevitably forms an alliance with the Communist Party, as did Sun Yat-sen (and thus becomes linked with the policies of alliance with the Soviet Union and support for the workers and peasants). On the other hand, those persons or groups - like Chiang Kai-shek and Wang Ching-wei - who oppose the Communist Party (an opposition linked with opposition to the Soviet Union and to the interests of the workers and peasants), inevitably become servile lackeys of imperialism and the most vile, contemptible national traitors who sell out their own country.

>An historical analysis of class relations further discloses that under the new conditions, in the new period of accentuated international and internal struggle, as a result of threats combined with all kinds of tempting offers and enticements held out by the imperialists, and owing to the developing class struggle within the country, there may appear within the revolutionary ranks such people as Chen Tu-hsiu, Chang Kuo-tao in China and Tito in Yugoslavia. These people capitulate to reactionary bourgeois nationalism, betray the common interests of the toilers of all countries and place the liberation of their own people in serious jeopardy. They are the spokesmen of bourgeois nationalism inside the ranks of the proletariat. They cynically desert the cause of national liberation in mid-path, and they divert their country down the road leading to its transformation into an imperialist colony. The Communist Parties of all countries and each individual Communist must be alert to this danger.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/liu-shaoqi/1952/internationalism_nationalism/ch05.htm

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:49:03 No.1605549

File: 1695448143487.jpg (19.09 KB, 480x403, 1639761276845-4.jpg)

>>1605546
>In the present period, such bourgeois nationalism still exists in the colonial and semi-colonial countries. This variety of nationalism also has a certain objective progressive historical significance.

So is Russia a colonial/semi-colonial country?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:53:43 No.1605552

>>1605549
>get three paragraphs in
>start the nitpick routine

Yes. You would know this if you ever finished reading the things you said you would.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 05:57:00 No.1605554

File: 1695448619916.jpg (16.26 KB, 338x310, 39f1a5a9e5bb6dbd851c12602e….jpg)

>>1605545
That's because you're confused(not entirely your fault) and are defaulting to the liberal definition of "progressive"(entirely your fault), measuring "progress" by how excellent and nice everyone is to each other, a liberal metanarrtive conception of history.

I wish other communists would stop use the term "progressive", it's just another empty signifier. Like "equality", "freedom" and "democracy".

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:00:28 No.1605556

File: 1695448828361.mp4 (8.92 MB, 540x360, amerikkka.mp4)

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:01:37 No.1605559

File: 1695448897444.jpg (21.29 KB, 394x391, 1688855159232962.jpg)

>>1605552

Is that so?
Because what you've posted is in the context of independence movements from monarchy and colonial governments.

So who is Russia being "colonised" or "controlled" by? Considering what you link is in reference to the colonies/semi-colonies of the time, that being China, India, Korea, Indonesia, the Philippines, Viet-Nam, Burma, Egypt.

So who is Russia a semi-colony/colony for? Ngl, not looking good for you anon when you accuse me of "not reading".

>>1605554
But again, how is Russia progressive? because as we've established state ownership of the MOP under a conservative government doesn't make it "progressive"- considering it seeks to maintain a social status quo at the detriment of others.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:05:52 No.1605563

>>1605559
>But again, how is Russia progressive?
It is progressive in that it spins the gears of history, upsetting the status quo, disrupting order, relations, and precarious balances of power. Bringing all of us closer to socialism or extinction. It is "progressive", like a disease. A trend, heading towards a conclusion.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:07:35 No.1605565

Tell the Rojava fag that they are a confused anarchist conflating national liberation (and I am not saying this is a precondition for establishing socialism) with third worldism and everyone will understand everything. No need for this debate bro nonsense.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:14:17 No.1605570

>>1605559
>Is that so?
Yes
>who is Russia a semi-colony/colony for?
The west. Just like every other country not in the G&. Thats how financial imperialism works.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:17:48 No.1605575

File: 1695449868668.jpg (34.31 KB, 512x512, bbc.jpg)

>>1605565
How is annexing the LPR and DPR into your state "national liberation" in spite of the fact that you said that you "recognised" their sovereignty as independent nation states?

>>1605570
>if i be as vague as possible i win
>its how financial imperialism works
At this given point in time, Which western country has a monopoly on Russia's own resources?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:19:54 No.1605577

File: 1695449994452.jpg (21.06 KB, 290x324, 1688768628351734.jpg)

>>1605563
And this line of thought isn't utopian thinking because….?
i'll clue you in, it's not upsetting the status quo, it's merely competing for a greater spot amongst global capitalism

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:23:15 No.1605578

File: 1695450194171.pdf (1.84 MB, 180x255, Hudson, Michael - Super im….pdf)

>>1605575
>Which western country has a monopoly on Russia's own resources?
They don't. That is not what financial imperialism means. Countries don't outright control their colonies under neocolonialism they parasitize them by controlling global monetary policy. I'm not being vague I am again referring to things you have said you would read that you have not.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:23:47 No.1605580

>>1605577
>it's not upsetting the status quo
the status quo is western hegemony so yes it is looking to upset it
>it's merely competing for a greater spot amongst global capitalism
so much for not being vague >>1605575
it's about shifting the balance of power within this "global capitalism"
there's also the fact that the bloc russia is part of is led by a socialist state too but you probably don't care, social imperialism or whatever

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:26:26 No.1605582

File: 1695450385654.pdf (4.69 MB, 180x255, nkrumah-neocolonialism.pdf)

more things you wont read

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:33:38 No.1605587

>>1605577
Because it is backed up by actual recorded history. And the last two times the bourgeoisie were "merely competing", we went to one Communist nuclear-armed power, and then to three. Now we're back down to two.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:36:56 No.1605588

>>1605578
>that's not what financial imperialism means
Then provide a definition and quit being vague. And furthermore, how does this book apply to what Russia currently is/ now considering that this book was published in the 1970s and has an intro from 2002.
>you said you read this
You haven't linked Hudson or Kwame before- so either you're lazy or delusional.

>>1605587
>we went to one Communist nuclear-armed power, and then to three. Now we're back down to two.
So how exactly will it be different this time? At least then you had a unified front of communist states, never mind the Non-Aligned Movement. The only person we have is China and even they aren't as proactive in their aid as the USSR was.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:43:38 No.1605594

>>1605588
>they aren't as proactive in their aid
<Workers of the world - wait on AES handouts!
My utopian thinking is that you get your hegemon obliterated for you, so you can build with way less obstructions than before.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 06:46:19 No.1605597

>>1605588
>You haven't linked Hudson or Kwame before- so either you're lazy or delusional.
G7 and financial imperialism referenced here >>1584978
chart from that article >>1595296
you saying you would read it >>1605530

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:01:05 No.1605602

File: 1695452465045-0.png (36.98 KB, 596x355, Russia_graph_1.PNG)

File: 1695452465045-1.png (29.09 KB, 593x351, Russia_graph_3.PNG)

File: 1695452465045-2.png (24.58 KB, 593x385, Russia_graph_2.PNG)

>>1605594
>My utopian thinking is that you get your hegemon obliterated for you, so you can build with way less obstructions than before
The hegemon which is gaining millions of dollars from this war?

https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-ukraine-gas-inflation-reduction-act-ira-joe-biden-rift-west-eu-accuses-us-of-profiting-from-war/

>>1605597
So again- you can't read- because I said- you haven't linked Kwame or Hudson before and those anons are different
Secondly, if you're referring to those articles, as I said-
these are the articles im contrasting it to.

https://bolshevik.org/statements/ibt_20190219_imperialism_21c_russia.html

and the information provided including this:

<One of the measures of capital export is foreign direct investment (FDI), which refers to the investments made by one country in another, including buying a minimum of 10 percent equity in foreign companies. Traditionally, neocolonies have had limited outward FDI but greater inward FDI, as they are marginal capital exporters but significant capital importers, while imperialist countries tend to be both major capital exporters and capital importers.

<There are serious limitations to using FDI as a measure of capital export, particularly from the standpoint of Marxist analysis. In a June 2018 article in Finance & Development (published by the International Monetary Fund [IMF]), Jannick Damgaard (senior economist at the National Bank of Denmark), Thomas Elkjaer (senior economist in the IMF’s Statistics Department) and Niels Johannesen (professor of economics at the University of Copenhagen) reported that “a stunning $12 trillion – almost 40 percent of all foreign direct investment positions globally – is completely artificial: it consists of financial investment passing through empty corporate shells with no real activity”:

<“This type of financial tax engineering is a worldwide phenomenon that cuts across advanced and emerging market economies. In emerging market economies such as India, China, and Brazil, 50 to 90 percent of outward foreign direct investment goes through a foreign entity with no economic substance; the share is 50 to 60 percent in advanced economies such as the United Kingdom and the United States.… Globally, the average is close to 40 percent.”

<It is difficult to ascertain exactly how much of Russia’s FDI is “round-tripping,” i.e., fraudulent transactions in which capital is sent abroad to avoid taxes and then returned to the home country. Damgaard, Elkjaer and Johannesen, based on a recent IMF working paper by Damgaard and Elkjaer (“The Global FDI Network: Searching for Ultimate Investors,” 2017), present figures indicating that around 25 percent of Russia’s outward FDI passes through foreign shell companies. The real percentage is likely much higher, possibly even as high as that of Britain or the U.S. Economist Kari Liuhto of the University of Turku estimates that while it is “impossible to state exactly what the precise amount of genuine outward FDI in Russian OFDI stock is[,]…if one excludes Cyprus and tax havens from the Russian OFDI stock, one may conclude that less than a half of the Russian OFDI could be characterized as genuine OFDI” (“Motivations of Russian firms to invest abroad,” 2015).

<Conventional economics provides no good way to directly measure the Marxist concept of surplus value extraction through capital export. However, despite the very real limitations of FDI data, it is instructive to compare broad changes in Russian FDI figures with those of other countries over the past quarter century, as Russia’s transformation into an imperialist power in the early to mid 2000s is reflected in a shift in its FDI profile. Graph 1 presents figures for the flow of Russia’s outward FDI as a percentage of the world’s total outward FDI, which is of course dominated by imperialist countries. For comparison, the outward FDI figure is also given for Brazil, a neocolonial country that, as a regional power in South America, has exhibited some of the capital-exporting characteristics of imperialist powers and is often compared with Russia. From the early 1990s to the mid 2000s, Russia and Brazil followed a similar trend, from negligible foreign investors to emergent foreign investing powers. However, since the mid 2000s, Russia has maintained and increased its standing, averaging about 3% of the world’s total outward FDI flow in the decade 2007-2017. In that same decade, Brazil receded back to its previous status as a marginal capital exporter, accounting for only 0.2% of the world’s total outward FDI flow. For comparison, Canada had 4.1%, Italy 2.1% and Spain 2.6% in the same period.

Graph 1: Russian and Brazilian outward FDI flow as % of world total, 1993–2017 (data from UNCTAD)

The trend of Russia’s outward FDI since the mid 2000s indicates a departure from the profile of a neocolonial country and a convergence with the profile of an imperialist country. This transformation is further evident in Graphs 2 and 3, which present the absolute outward FDI figures (in millions of U.S. dollars) for Russia and three comparatively strong neocolonies (Brazil, India and Saudi Arabia) and for Russia and three second-tier imperialist countries (Canada, Italy and Spain).

Graph 2: Outward FDI flow, Russia and selected neocolonies, USD millions, 1992–2017 (data from UNCTAD)

Graph 3: Outward FDI flow, Russia and selected imperialist countries, USD millions, 1992–2017 (data from UNCTAD)

So sorry if im "taking my time"- the amount of time it takes to refute bullshit takes longer than it does to make it- but im sure you know that all too well.

It's ironic, because you still refuse to read the ones i've linked and then proceed to act like an illiterate and gaslight others. In a way I almost admire your constant projection- if it wasn't so pathetic.

In other words, don't bother lying to or about me.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:04:08 No.1605603

>>1605602
>The hegemon which is gaining millions of dollars from this war?
The hegemon that's trillions of dollars in the hole. :^)

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:06:29 No.1605605

File: 1695452788972.png (14.34 KB, 593x356, Russia_graph_4.PNG)

>>1605602
cont.

<Examining Russian Foreign Investments

<Bulatov notes that in Russia “FDI flows, offshore entities and conduit countries carry significant weight – 90 per cent of outflows and 97 per cent of inflows, with a focus on the Caribbean in outflows and Western Europe in inflows” (Transnational Corporations, 24(2), 2017). This is not to say that 90 percent of Russia’s outward FDI is round-tripping – indeed, the proportion is much lower. Russian capitalists use tax-haven countries and “special purpose enterprises” not only to round-trip money back to Russia but to export capital to third countries for genuine profitable investment. The practice of using “conduit” countries (or “offshore hubs”) as intermediaries for foreign investment in third countries is called “trans-shipment.” Bulatov goes on to explain:

<“Leading conduit countries are Luxemburg, Ireland, Austria, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the Netherlands. The last two, in addition to special purpose entities, have international financial centres and their own nets of offshore entities. The United Kingdom has 14 British overseas territories (including Cayman and the British Virgin Islands) and 3 crown dependencies (Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man), which are offshore jurisdictions financially served by the City of London. The Netherlands has a smaller financial centre and a web of offshore jurisdictions – the Caribbean dependent territories of the Netherlands (Curacao, Bonaire, Sint Maarten, Sint Eustasius, Saba and Aruba).”

<The complexity of examining the web of Russian foreign investments, which are often camouflaged by intermediaries, is highlighted by the example of telecom giant VEON (formerly VimpelCom), which is headquartered in Amsterdam. The sixth-largest mobile network operator in the world (with business in Russia, Pakistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Ukraine and some central Asian countries), VEON is majority-owned by LetterOne Investment, itself based in Luxemburg but controlled by Russian billionaire Mikhail Fridman’s Moscow-based Alfa Group Consortium (Reuters, 24 July 2017). Although the source of the capital ultimately traces back to Russia, any investments LetterOne might make in VEON would be registered as outward FDI from Luxemburg while VEON investments abroad are booked as Dutch outward FDI.

<Another key conduit country for Russian capitalists is Cyprus. Bulatov points out that:

< “…at least five leading Russian Federation banks (VTB, Alfa Bank, AvoVAZbank, Privatbank, Promsvyazbank) have affiliates in Cyprus, as do numerous financial and investment affiliates of other Russian Federation parent companies. This island country is the most attractive offshore jurisdiction for Russian Federation investors…, not due to its corporate tax rate for offshore companies (which is higher than in many other offshore entities at 12.5 per cent) but due to numerous tax treaties with other offshore entities (which provide easy conduits to offshore entities with lower taxation rates) and also because the civil code of Cyprus is based on United Kingdom law.”
—Ibid.

<Bulatov reports that in 2014 Russia’s outward FDI stock (accumulated flow) in Cyprus was $105 billion, while the inward FDI stock in Russia from Cyprus was $101 billion (representing approximately 27% of Russia’s total stock for both measures). Undoubtedly some of the “Cypriot” capital exported to Russia was of German and other non-Russian origin, though a majority was almost certainly Russian.

<Curiously, “Cyprus” is the largest foreign investor in Ukraine, with just under $14 billion FDI stock, as of January 2015. Nominally, Russia, with $2.7 billion FDI stock, is only the fourth-largest source of FDI in Ukraine, behind Cyprus, Germany and the Netherlands. However, accounting for trans-shipment, the OECD estimated the real level of Russian investments to be about $9.9 billion. Part of the figure included investments from “Dutch” company VEON.

<The Eurasian Development Bank (EDB) has created its own database (taking trans-shipment and round-tripping into account) to better estimate real foreign investments by and in Eurasian countries (“Monitoring of direct investments of Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine in Eurasia,” EDB Centre for Integration Studies, 2014), and its findings demonstrate that standard FDI measures can both exaggerate and minimize the real situation. For instance, in 2016, the EDB database shows the real Russian FDI stock in Cyprus to be negligible ($50 million) compared to the $150 billion reported using conventional means. The real figure for Russian FDI stock in the Netherlands was only $1.1 billion compared to the nominal $60 billion (“EAEU and Eurasia: Monitoring and Analysis of Direct Investments 2017,” EDB Centre for Integration Students, 2017). Conversely, standard accounts put Russian FDI in Pakistan and Bangladesh at zero, whereas the EDB database reveal $1.2 billion and $1.1 billion in FDI stock, respectively. Other large discrepancies reported for countries with supposedly miniscule Russian investments are Iraq ($4.3 billion in real investments, mostly by Lukoil), Egypt ($3.3 billion), Poland ($1.1 billion) and Romania ($1.6 billion).

<In 2016, Russia’s total real outward FDI stock in Eurasia (excluding the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) and Georgia) was $85.7 billion. While Italy, Germany and Britain hosted about 40 percent of that amount, most of the rest was invested in neocolonies like Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Greece, Serbia, Turkey, India, Vietnam and Mongolia. That same year, Russia had an additional $34.8 billion in FDI stock in Georgia and the CIS (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine and Uzbekistan) (“Monitoring of Mutual Investments in CIS Countries 2017,” EDB Centre for Integration Studies, 2017). Based on these figures, Russia has something on the order of $75 billion invested in neocolonies in Europe and Asia alone.

<This demonstrates that, while Russian investment in imperialist countries is comparatively small, in neocolonies it can be hugely significant. Not only are Russian capitalists making profits from weaker countries, but it is often on a scale that can give Russia considerable leverage over those countries. Liuhto notes: “Compared to the EU, the USA and China, the importance of the Russian OFDI in some CIS countries is gargantuan. Russia covers, for instance, the bulk of the Tajik inward FDI stock and some 40-60 % of the Belarusian and Uzbek inward FDI stock” (“Motivations of Russian firms to invest abroad,” 2015). The Eurasian Development Bank’s database indicates that Russian investments also account for 50-75 percent of inward FDI stock in Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Armenia, 30-50 percent in Iraq and North Korea and other significant proportions in Pakistan and Ukraine. Russia invests approximately $1 billion annually in Kazakhstan, where about one-third of foreign companies are Russian (The Astana Times, 11 September 2017).

<Writing with colleague Peeter Vahtra, Liuhto argues that the astronomical increase in Russian outward FDI in the early to mid 2000s fed into a virtuous circle of capitalist development in Russia:

<“Russian companies have enhanced their international competitiveness by gaining increased access to natural resources, acquiring strategic assets worldwide and obtaining segments of the global market. High oil and raw material prices have yielded increasing export revenues, which have, in turn, supported the international expansion of Russian enterprises.”
—“Foreign operations of Russia’s largest industrial corporations – building a typology,” Transnational Corporations 16(1), April 2007

<In The BRICS and Outward Foreign Direct Investment, Collins confirms the link between increased oil and natural gas revenues from sales and the increase in foreign capital export:

<“Modern Russian MNEs [multinational enterprises] now display a high degree of horizontal and vertical integration of production capacities which also include distribution networks and banking, linking services to non-services outward FDI. Most Russian companies operating abroad retain strong ties with domestic natural resources. Until recently, most Russian MNEs were in the oil and gas, metallurgy, and electricity generation and distribution industries. Russian firms have exploited the ties to their natural resources base as collateral to raise loans for FDI, particularly during periods where the prices for these commodities were highest.”

<The geographic orientation of Russian outward FDI has shifted somewhat over time. According to Amar Anwar and Mazhar Mughal in 2014 (“Why do Russian firms invest abroad? A firm level analysis”), Russian firms initially made major investments in nearby post-Soviet states:

<“These investments mostly sought access to natural resources (for example Lukoil’s operations in Azerbaijan or the Russian steel maker Mechel’s investments in Kazakhstan), or to capture the countries consumer markets (for example Mobile TeleSystems’ investments in Ukraine’s and most other former Soviet Republics’ telecommunication networks, or electricity producer and supplier RAO UES’s operations in Armenia, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine). However, preference for these Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) countries has gradually waned.”

<Russian investments have now expanded much further afield. In association with Russian investment fund United Capital Partners and Netherlands-based Trafigura Group, Rosneft recently purchased 98 percent of Essar Oil, the second largest private oil refining company in India, for close to $13 billion (The Indian Express, 15 October 2017).

<The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation reports:

<“Russia may have as much as $25 billion US tied up in Venezuela, largely in oil and gold, according to the Latin American Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
<By comparison, U.S. foreign direct investment in Venezuela was $6.6 billion in 2017, according to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative, mainly in manufacturing and ‘information services.’”
—cbc.ca, 31 January 2019

<As is typical of high-risk imperialist ventures, not all Russian overseas energy investments work out:

“In Venezuela, crumbling oil output is a threat to Russia’s Rosneft, which has invested billions of dollars in projects in the country, and is also owed around $1.6bn by the country’s state-owned oil producer PDVSA.
“Rosneft said in its 2018 annual report that it would only make a ‘final investment decision’ in 2020 on whether to develop two gasfields it acquired last December.
“Rosneft, in which the Russian government owns a majority stake, also faces potential issues in the semi-autonomous Iraqi region of Kurdistan, where it has spent $1.8bn to secure oil deliveries and pledged $400m more to develop new fields.
“That has angered the federal government in Baghdad, which insists all oil deals inside the country should be negotiated with them.”
—Financial Times, 5 June 2018

<While capital export from the highly monopolized energy sector predominates, Russian corporations in other industries have made significant investments abroad, securing important markets and establishing an external revenue base. According to the EDB, the major sectors of Russian outward FDI in 2016 were oil and gas (34.3 percent), communication and IT (19.7 percent), finance (12.9 percent) and mechanical engineering (6 percent). Collins notes:

“In 2004, Russia’s leading mobile operator MTS acquired a 74 per cent share in Uzbekistan’s leading operator, Uzabunorbita. Russia’s second-largest mobile operator VimpelCom acquired a stake in Kazakhstan’s second-largest operator, KaR-Tel in 2005. VimpelCom also has operations in Tajikistan and the Ukraine, with plans to expand into Vietnam and Cambodia. Mobile TeleSystems (MTS) is a market leader in wireless communication in various CIS countries, including the Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, and Belarus. It is the largest company of Sistema Holdings, which itself has acquired licences to operate in India with plans to enter China and Bangladesh. VimpelCom is the most active globally expanding MNE among the Russian telecom firms.”
…
“Russian telecommunications firms are rapidly catching up with the natural resources-based and heavy manufacturing-based conglomerates on the global scene.
“In software and IT services, Russia is behind only the US in the number of companies that operate internationally in this sector. There are also some globally active technology-based Russian MNEs, particularly in information and communications technology. The anti-virus internet firm Kaspersky was created in 1997 and had developed a global presence by the end of 2005, expanding into 10 foreign locations including in Asia, Europe, and the US. Another Russian high technology firm, NT-MDT (Nanotechnology-Modular Devices and Tools) established an affiliate in Ireland in 2005 to carry out assembly, testing, and after-sales services as well as research and development. The Russian holding company GIS acquired French microelectronics manufacturer Altis Semiconductor in 2007.… The Russian IT sector is now perceived to be highly stable and is consequently able to attract capital from private and institutional investors to fuel internationalization.”

<Wladimir Andreff reports:

“…Russian OFDI started booming in the 2000s in more modernised parts of the manufacturing industry with Sistema group (which owns MTS) in telephone production, Sitronics in telecom equipment, Vimpelcom, Altimo, Megafon and Alfa Group in telecom, Korolev Rocket and Space Corporation Energia in aeronautics, RTI Systems in aerospace and missile production, NPO Mashinostroyenia in military equipment. Big Russian insurance and financial companies and big banks have developed and internationalised in the formerly underdeveloped (Soviet) services industry such as Sberbank, VTB, Gazprombank, Alfa-bank and Bank of Moscow.”
—“Outward Foreign Direct Investment from BRIC countries,” The European Journal of Comparative Economics 12(2), 2015

<Digital Sky Technologies (DST) Global, headquartered in Hong Kong but owned by Russian tech billionaire Yuri Milner and supported in part by VTB Bank, has invested billions of dollars in Facebook, Twitter, Spotify, Airbnb, Alibaba and other internet companies (New York Times, 5 November 2017). Milner has also invested several hundred million dollars in India (iPleaders.in).

<None of this is to suggest that Russia is on the same economic level as first-tier imperialist countries, although it compares on many measures with lesser but well-established imperialists. While Russian industrial corporations have made massive investments abroad, “no one Russian MNC has entered yet the list of top 100 biggest non-financial MNCs ranked by UNCTAD according to the value of their foreign assets” (Andreff). That list is dominated by the U.S., Britain, Germany, Japan and France. Like Russia, Canada has none, and the Netherlands has only one entry (the Amsterdam-based French telecom Altice), as do Belgium and Australia. Russia’s banking system (i.e., financial capital in the narrow sense of the term) is comparatively weak, having, for instance, no presence on UNCTAD’s list of the top 50 financial transnational corporations (TNCs). Nor does Belgium, while Italy, Spain and Canada each have only one.

<The reasons why Russian corporations invest abroad are complex, but it is clear that the astronomical growth of Russia’s outward FDI in the mid 2000s was accompanied by a shift away from capital flight to profit-seeking and market-procuring through various means. One study explains “the changing strategies of outward investing Russian firms: in the early 1990s, they were mostly privately owned TNCs, seeking ‘safety nests’ abroad to protect themselves from domestic uncertainty; these days, State-owned or -influenced TNCs dominate Russian capital exports, motivated by a desire to control the value chain of their products” (Kalman Kalotay and Astrit Sulstarova, “Modelling Russian outward FDI”). UNCTAD adds that Russia’s profile differs from that of the other so-called BRIC countries:

<“In contrast to TNCs from other BRICS countries, the main aim of Russian TNCs is not simply to secure the supply of raw materials to their home country, but also to expand their control over the value chains of their own natural resources, to build sustainable competitive advantages vis-à-vis other firms, and to strengthen their market positions in key developing countries. For example Rosneft formed [a] joint-venture with CNPC (China) to develop oil extraction projects in the Russian Federation and downstream operations in China.”

<Another study observes:

<“The typical FDI motives of Russian multinationals, especially in mergers and acquisitions (M&As), are quests for markets and resources.… Their FDI can also be strategic-asset-seeking, especially for Russian machinery MNEs from the ‘second echelon’.… For example, Borodino group acquired Jobs and some other Italian companies in 2007–2009 to strengthen its machine-tool division. Efficiency-seeking FDI is driving Russian MNEs’ investments abroad only in a few countries where labor costs are lower than in Russia. Such FDI is more typical for mid-sized MNEs. For instance, the Russian leader of the clothing industry, Gloria Jeans, has built several workshops in Ukraine.”
—“Global Expansion of Russian Multinationals after the Crisis: Results of 2011,” Vale Columbia Center on Sustainable Investment, April 2013

<Imperialist countries invest in neocolonies for a variety of reasons: to obtain natural resources and markets; to secure spheres of influence for geopolitical purposes; and to make super-profits by exploiting cheap labor. Russian investments are based on the same motives, though as a newcomer on the imperialist stage, strategic/geopolitical calculations are likely more prominent than they are for other imperialists – Russia appears to have a longer-term perspective aimed at securing further markets and spheres of influence. Moscow often brokers deals to cut the price of its energy commodities in exchange for domination of local markets and access to investment opportunities. Yet Russia, although its own labor costs are very low compared to other imperialist powers, still engages in “efficiency-seeking” investment as well. While it invests in imperialist countries and in neocolonial countries where wages are higher (e.g., Poland), it also exports capital to several neocolonial countries where wages are lower than in Russia (see Graph 4).
Graph 4: Nominal monthly wage 2017 (national currency converted to USD end of 2018). Data from ILO,
https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_650553.pdf

But sure, I haven't "read anything". Much like i know you won't bother to read this and then proceed to call me a westoid.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:08:12 No.1605606

>>1605603
I want to share your optimism anon, but im not so sure.
Unless you can give me a source which the US is losing fucktons of money and not profiteering from this war, then i can't say i share your optimism.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:13:31 No.1605609

>>1605605
cont (this section comes before the graphs)

Russian Finance Capital: Gigantic Monopolies

<In the decade that followed the capitalist counterrevolution and dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, Russia’s economy was privatized through a program of imperialist-backed “shock therapy” aimed nominally at kickstarting market mechanisms but in reality designed to weaken and subjugate the country. The process benefitted foreign corporations but also created a new layer of wealthy “entrepreneurs” – capitalists who, in many cases, successfully converted themselves from managers of state-owned enterprises into the owners of privatized companies. The new capitalists were often indistinguishable from organized criminals, and they funneled large amounts of money to overseas bank accounts from which they could withdraw the cash to purchase luxury goods. The government of Boris Yeltsin oversaw the descent of Russia into this venal form of crony capitalism and the decline of Russia’s power on the world stage (see “Russia: A Capitalist Dystopia,” 1917 No. 24).

<With the ascension of Vladimir Putin at the beginning of the century, however, things began to turn around, as the ultra-rich “oligarchs” were mostly brought to heel, and the country’s haemorrhaging of capital slowed considerably. The new direction of government policy coincided with a massive concentration of capital into a handful of large monopolies (or oligopolies) mainly in the natural resources sectors but extending into other areas of the Russian economy. David Collins observes in his 2013 book, The BRICS and Outward Foreign Direct Investment:

< “During the early 2000s there was a strategic shift in the domestic business environment that led to general improvements in [Russia’s] economy and saw the creation of SOEs [state-owned enterprises] in key industries, either with the assistance of public finance or through more efficient administrative measures. During the period since 2000, the Russian economy has become largely concentrated in the hands of several large corporations. It is believed that the high concentration of income in the Russian economy was one of the major motivators behind the globalization of Russian firms. In 2001 the Russian investment bank Troika Dialog calculated that around 70 large financial and industrial groups controlled 40 per cent of the Russian GDP.”

<The early to mid 2000s was the period in which the Russian bourgeoisie consolidated itself as an imperialist power. Its economy remains heavily monopolized, as Alexander Bulatov notes:

“400 leading companies (with sales greater than 15 billion roubles; i.e. US$700-750 million by purchasing power parity) produced 41 per cent of GDP in 2014…, and many of them were monopolies (Gazprom, Norulsky Nikel, Russian Raylways, Aeroflot, Transneft) or leading oligopolies (LUKOIL, Rosneft, Sberbank, Rostelecom, Megafon) in their industries.”
—Transnational Corporations, 24(2), 2017

<The level of development of the contemporary Russian economy is uneven. In comparative rankings of competitiveness (which include factors such as innovation, corruption and property rights), Russia is not in the top tier. The World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report 2017–2018, for instance, ranked Russia 38 out of 137 – behind some neocolonial countries like the United Arab Emirates and Indonesia (but ahead of imperialist Italy). Aggregate labor productivity in Russia is low compared to other imperialists, just over half of the European average and about one-third that of the U.S. (Moscow Times, 10 August 2015). There are few Russian-made consumer goods that are household names in the West, whereas even some non-imperialist countries like South Korea boast products well known in Europe and North America.

<Yet alongside this relative backwardness are significant elements of advanced capitalism:

“[Russia’s] service sector activity is, as a proportion of total value added, closing in on levels observed in the EU. In 2010, services accounted for 68 per cent of total value added in Russia, compared to the EU average ratio of 79.7 per cent, and ratios of 50 per cent for China and 49.7 per cent for Indonesia.
“Thus, it is clear that over two decades of economic transformation in Russia has resulted in an economy that is closer in structure to its rich EU neighbours than it is to some other large, low- and middle income countries.”
—European Parliament, “The Economic Significance of Russia’s Accession to the WTO,” June 2012

<Every imperialist country builds upon the economic foundations established in its pre-imperialist phase. Russia’s trajectory is unique in that the pre-history of its contemporary imperialism runs through the creation of a degenerated workers’ state. Russian imperialism of the 21st century lags less far behind its adversaries than Tsarist Russian imperialism did before 1917 – and it is the material legacy of the Soviet Union that has made that possible. As well as inheriting a highly educated workforce, Russian capitalism has benefited from (and made advancements in) technologies that were heavily developed in the Soviet Union, including weapons and aerospace.

<Russia is the world’s second-largest arms exporter after the U.S. and a global leader in the production of weapons technology. Since its recovery following the economic disarray of the 1990s, Russia has accounted for an annual average of 25 percent of global arms exports, nearly as much as Germany, France, Britain and China combined (“Russia’s Role as an Arms Exporter,” Chatham House, March 2017).

<The economic sanctions that Washington imposed on Russia in 2014 are aimed not merely at punishing the annexation of Crimea but also at undermining an economic competitor, including in the multi-billion-dollar arms industry. The U.S. has not, however, been entirely successful at dissuading countries from purchasing Russian-made weapons:

“India’s defence minister visited Moscow last week to finalise a $6bn purchase of S-400 missile systems. The deal appears set to go through despite US efforts to stop it, including an offer from Lockheed Martin to move the production of F-16 fighter jets from Texas to India. Turkey, a member of Nato, agreed to accelerate an S-400 deal when Russian President Vladimir Putin visited Ankara recently. Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish leader, said ‘the S-400 deal is made, and this matter is closed’.”
—Financial Times, 13 April 2018

<One of the reasons that even traditional U.S. allies would run the risk of angering Washington is the technological sophistication of Russian weapons:

“‘The S-400 is among the most advanced air defence systems available, on par with the best the West has to offer,’ said Siemon Wezeman, senior researcher with Stockholm International Peace Research Institute’s (SIPRI) arms transfers and military expenditure programme.”
—Al Jazeera, 8 October 2018

<Russia’s recent intervention in Syria provided an opportunity to test its advanced technology in the field. This has become a selling point for Rosoboronexport, which controls foreign sales for Russian arms manufacturers:

“At the fifth Bahrain International Air Show 2018 (BIAS), Rosoboronexport will feature Russia’s most advanced weapon systems, including the S-400 long-range air defense missile complex, the Pantsyr medium-range surface-to-air missile/gun system, Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets, unmanned aerial vehicles, electronic warfare systems and the newest Ilyushin Il-76MD-90A military transport planes.
“‘The weapons labelled “made in Russia” enjoy enhanced demand as they have proven their worth in rough combat and climatic conditions at sea, on the ground and in the air. And this demand is growing: Rosoboronexport’s order book has recently exceeded the mark of $50 billion, a considerable share of which has been formed by contracts with Arab states,’ [CEO Alexander] Mikheyev said.”
—Tass, 12 November 2018

<Despite comparative weakness in some areas, Russia’s aerospace industry also remains a world leader. In September 2018, Loren Thompson, chief operating officer of the Lexington Institute (which is partly funded by defense contractors Boeing and Lockheed Martin) wrote a piece in Forbes complaining that “U.S. satellite makers are becoming increasingly dependent on other countries, especially Russia, for a technology essential to the functionality of their products”:

“[T]he industry is gradually migrating to so-called electric propulsion technology, and there the key offshore provider is Russia. Even as Congress has been pressing the military to end its reliance on Russian rocket engines, America’s satellites are becoming more dependent on a type of in-space propulsion where Russia has emerged as the global leader.”

<Russian nuclear technology is also advanced, and the country’s reactor designs “dominate all others” in the export category:

“While China’s internal nuclear build-out is the largest in the world, countries in the position to buy reactors have been overwhelmingly choosing Russia and its VVER1200.…
“Customers buying the VVER1200 cover the range, from developing nations undertaking their first nuclear steps, like Bangladesh, to advanced nations with extensive nuclear power experience who are expanding their fleet, like Finland.
“Even China, with its rapidly maturing capabilities and nuclear export ambitions, finds something compelling in the Russian offering, recently agreeing to purchase four more VVER1200s.”
—Forbes, 3 July 2018

<In early 2018, the state nuclear energy corporation Rosatom unveiled an innovative floating nuclear reactor, confirming the view of experts that Russian nuclear technology remains a major player in the international market: “‘They are light-years ahead of us,’ Jacopo Buongiorno, a professor of nuclear engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said of the Russian floating power program” (New York Times, 26 August 2018). The Economist (2 August 2018) complains that, in the post-Fukushima era, “one country now dominates the market for design and export of nuclear plants: Russia.” Indeed, Rosatom is building multi-billion-dollar nuclear power plants in several dependent countries, including Turkey’s first nuclear plant, worth $20 billion (Ibid.).

<Beyond military goods, aerospace and nuclear energy, Russian capitalists can also compete globally in the chemical and metallurgy industries (see Ye.Yasin et al., “Russian Manufacturing Revisited: Industrial Enterprises at the Start of the 2008 Financial Crisis,” Bank of Finland). Indeed, according to the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD), Russia’s “Metallurgy and chemicals are already competitive in world markets and operate without major subsidies” (World Investment Report 2012). Russia is the third-largest steel exporter on the planet, and its largest buyers include Turkey, Mexico, Belgium and the United States (Global Steel Trade Monitor, November 2018). A recent report by Deloitte noted that “the US and EU introduced anti-dumping duties on Russian steel that affected domestic players in the sector,” though the effects of this economic warfare were offset to some degree by increased domestic demand for metals in the oil and natural gas sectors (“Russian manufacturing industry overview,” May 2016).

<Russia’s oil and natural gas giants (Rosneft, Lukoil and Gazprom) have at times partnered with foreign companies in order to access advanced technologies, though they are hardly backward corporations. Western sanctions have hampered the export of energy technology to Russia, but Russian capitalists have sought to make up the difference. In October 2018, the head of Novatek (a liquefied natural gas producer), Leonid Mikhelson, reported that the company had developed the capacity to exceed current needs:

“‘We are seeing the birth of a new industry in Russia,’ said Mikhelson, adding that Novatek has developed technology to liquefy gas.
“Russia has up to now relied on companies such as French oil major Total to build new plants and provide technology.”
—Reuters, 3 October 2018

<Russian company TMK, which manufacturers technically sophisticated pipelines, has helped Russia’s energy companies access enormously profitable resources:

“Despite US and European sanctions and ever-increasing technical demands that some analysts said would be beyond Russian producers, the country’s oil and gas industry is booming, riding a surge in prices and a weaker rouble, and encouraged by initial successes in the largely untapped Arctic.”
—Financial Times, 5 June 2018

<When sanctions deprived it of the advanced technology required to access Arctic oil, Rosneft simply developed its own. The Tsentralno-Olginskaya-1 oil well is “one of the most technologically challenging ever attempted in Russia. With the deposits located beneath the icy, frequently frozen waters of the Laptev Sea, cutting-edge horizontal drilling techniques will be used to reach up to 15,000m from the main site” (Financial Times, 19 April 2017).

<Gazprom Neft (the oil arm of the natural gas giant and Russia’s third-largest oil producer):

“became the first Russian company to demonstrate shale oil fracking expertise with a 1km-long horizontal well 2.3km below ground at a site in the vast Bazhenov field, estimated to be the world’s largest shale oil deposit. Gazprom Neft was able to use homegrown technology that it was forced to develop after the sanctions prompted its international partners to walk away from the project.”
—Ibid.

<Russia’s energy sector not only dominates the country’s commodity exports, it dominates Russian capital export as well.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:20:29 No.1605614

>The ‘end of empire’ has been accompanied by a flourishing of other means of subjugation. The British Empire has become the Commonwealth, but the proceeds from the exploitation of British imperialism are increasing. Profits of British tin companies have ranged as high as 400 per cent. The latest dividends to British diamond shareholders are close to 350 per cent. ON one occasion Mr Nehru declared that British profits from independent India had more than doubled and British capital investment in his country rose from Rs. 2,065 m. in 1948 to Rs. 4,460 m. in 1960. Total British investments in Africa have soared to $6,500 m., the French to about $7,000 m. and American to $1,100 m. A recent survey made plain the plunder of British monopolies. It listed 9 out of 20 of Britain’s biggest monopolies as direct colonial exploiting companies: Shell, British Petroleum, British American Tobacco, Imperial Tobacco, Burmah Oil, Nchanga Copper, Rhokana Corporation, Rhodesian Mines and British South Africa, five of which are directly engaged in chiselling away Africa’s natural resources. The others are busily increasing their trading. Their total of £221 m. net profits was over half the combined net profits of the top twenty monopolies. Incredibly the list leaves out two of the world’s greatest combines, those states within a state- Unilever and IMperial Chemical Industries – whose operations are based heavily in their overseas exploitations. The United Africa Company leads for Unilever in Africa; about a third of I.C.I. and its subsidiaries operate overseas.

>Sir Alec Douglas Home, former Prime Minister of Britain’s Tory government, in a speech made on 20 March 1964, professed himself ignorant of the meaning of neo-colonialism. While Sir Alec was talking, Britain was engaged in what its press was busy describing as ‘major crisis areas’ all over the world, putting down ‘troubles’ inspired and perpetrated by neo-colonialism: Aden and Southern Arabia against Yemen; Borneo and Sarawak against Indonesia; Cyprus, British Guiana; ‘maintaining law and order’ in Kenya, Tanganyika, Uganda, for the recently independent governments. Is this the end of imperialism? Not according to The Economist, mouthpiece of Britain’s business interests, which felt compelled to comment:

>‘Military bases, routes to the East, frontier skirmishing, putting down mutinies – all this has a nineteenth-century ring quite naturally disturbing to those who had hoped that the end of colonialism meant the end of military involvement east of Suez. The knobbly truth of the matter turns out to be that for the moment Britain has as many military commitments in that area as it ever had before colonies were replaced by Commonwealth.’ (Economist, 23 May 1964.)

>The intention is to hold back the progress of the developing countries. Where circumstances favour the establishment of ventures of a more than token industrial character, the aim is to see that they are made haltingly. The over-riding objective is to induce a merely fractional increase in the industrial scope of the new nations in order that they may continue to provide the sinews of imperialism’s greater concentration of forces for the final tussle of strength within itself and against socialism. What is remarkable is that the major part of the less developed world, and here we must include the U.S.S.R., chose and is choosing the socialist road to national progress. There are, in addition, countries like India where the political system, though patterned on the bourgeois democracies of capitalism, nevertheless proclaims socialism as the socio-economic objective. The nations that have reached their present peaks by passing through the various stages of capitalism cling desperately to the system that has brought them to the heights of imperialism. Each, perched perilously on a narrow summit, must put up a constant battle to guard its own pinnacle.

>Greater intensity is infused into the struggle by the resurgence of rivals, of whom Germany and Japan are the most virile. Both of them have benefited from strong injections of American capital, and U.S. monopolies are drawing off considerable profits from the running that is being made by these two countries in world competition, pointing the contradictions [sic]among the interests involved. Competing against American imperialism, German and Japanese monopolists are frequently in alliance with their U.S.A. opposites, who often put them forward in imperialism’s general offensive against Africa, where open United States private investment might be regarded with more suspicion than others. Germany, moreover, is now second to the U.S.A. in the scale of so-called assistance to the developing countries. Since capitalism is the embodiment of the philosophy of self-interest, the ostensible allies of America’s monopolists must use the position of strength into which they are being thrust to promote their own growth.

>This struggle for ascendancy among the imperialisms is continuous and involves a constant search for renewal of the sinews of strength. Alongside the battle for imperialist supremacy, there wages the fight against the ideological camp of socialism, into which the warring imperialists make an all-out effort to trail the developing countries as their appendages. In this way the anti-communist campaign is used to further imperialist aims. Leaders of monopoly capitalism everywhere build up in the public mind an image of the system in socio-cultural terms by which they transform it into an idealised harmonious civilisation that must be cherished at all costs. They harp upon a way of life that may be altered only to its detriment, and stress its continuity as a major principal in the fight against communism. When Harold Macmillan as Prime Minister of Britain told the South African parliament that ‘what is now on trial is much more than our military strength or our diplomatic and administrative skill – it is our way of life’, he epitomised the metaphysical transmutation of economic impulses into a social philosophy. This, in spite of his reference to ‘winds of change’ blowing across Africa. He echoed the several statesmen of the West, any of whom could have made the statement and, indeed, have at different times and in almost identical words, ‘The great issue in this second half of the twentieth century is whether the uncommitted peoples of Asia and Africa will swing to the East or to the West.’ All the powerful imperialist nations are decided that the new States shall develop along the capitalist path, the provisioners of imperialism’s vital needs, the source of its super profits. National liberation and the obvious advantages of socialist development for nations evolving out of a colonialist domination and without the capital means for making that development, are major factors determining imperialist strategy towards these nations, in both the interests of its internal struggle and in the fight against socialism.

>All countries, even the most deeply involved in monopoly imperialism, have a State sector. Indeed, State involvement in private economy has become an essential part of its process. It should cause no surprise, therefore, that developing countries, particularly in view of the small accumulations of local private capital, are obliged to centralise their economies. The size of the State sector and its planned expansion, however, must depend on the economic system which is chosen, capitalist or socialist. The aim of the imperialist powers, in the application of their aid programmes, is to turn the State sector into an appendage of private capital. In view of the process that has been evolved in the imperialist countries, it would be surprising if this were not so. The declared basic policy of the Agency for International Development (formerly International Co-operation Administration) is ‘to employ United States assistance to aid-receiving countries in such a way as will encourage the development of the private sectors of their economies. Thus I.C.A. will normally not be prepared to finance publicly owned industrial and extractive enterprises, although it is realised that there may be exceptions…’

>Development in the new countries along non-capitalist lines must be frustrated in the interests of Western imperialism. A series of articles which appeared in The (London) Times in April 1964 outlines the pattern and made no secret of its reasons: ‘The two great objects of Britain’s foreign policy must be to prevent the non-communist world from being penetrated by Communism … and secondly, to prevent her own access to trade and investment in any part of the world from being barred or limited.’ Naturally enough, as the articles conclude, ‘both these objects lead straight into the “neo-colonial” issue – the struggle for influence, commercial and political, over the non-communist countries outside Europe and North America’. Thus succinctly does the writer in The Times expose the true character of the ideological struggle between monopolies. Leading the ideological struggle, because she leads the inter-imperialist struggle, is the U.S.A. As the world’s leading imperialist power, America lays successor claim to the so-called vacua which the retiring colonial powers are said to leave behind as they give way to nationalist governments. Vietnam and Congo are very obvious symbols of this policy of rabid neo-colonialism. They are also examples of bitter antagonisms between American and other imperialisms. According to France Observateur (issue of 4 June 1964), ‘The darkest accusations are made by the U.S. against French business circles operating in S. Vietnam. … American experts in Asian affairs assert that French planters are not content with paying their mite to the South Vietnam National Liberation Front. They will even lend assistance and hide the guerillas pursued by the Government’s army.’

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:21:06 No.1605615

>In spite of its policy of open aggression in many parts of the globe, the United States frequently poses as the ‘anti-colonial’ power in the condemnation of British imperialism. ‘The pose is thin, and the mask continually falls, even often over critical anti-colonialist resolutions pressed by the Afro-Asian and socialist majority in the United Nations, when the United States and Britain find themselves alone, or only with France, Portugal, South Africa and Australia voting against or abstaining.’ [British Colonial Policy and Neo-Colonialist Rivalries, R. Palme Dutt, International Affairs, Moscow, August 1964.]In the last nine years American investments on this continent have trebled, growing at a faster rate than in any other area. In 1961 alone American monopolies profited by some £11·2 m. which they took out of Africa.

>The rising tide of nationalism in the colonial territories was remarked by the shrewder operators of United States finance capital as America’s opportunity to insinuate itself into what were the jealously guarded preserves of rival imperialisms. Anti-imperialist stirrings had begun to show themselves in Asia and Africa before the outbreak of the last world war. As hostilities progressed, America came out more and more openly for the ending of colonial rule. Press and other public propaganda harked back to America’s own fight against colonialism. The remembrance was linked in people’s minds with the budding nationalist movements that were bringing overt pressure for independence around the globe. War-torn Europe would provide part of the answer to America’s need to export investment capital and goods; but territories newly released from the political power of rival imperialisms would offer practically virgin fields.

>A fabulous growth in American monopoly capitalism occurred during the first forty years of the present century. United States foreign investments vied with those of Europe, overtook and surpassed them. In 1900, American private foreign investments were small by comparison with Europe’s – $500 m. to Britain’s $12,000 m. and France’s $600 m. By 1930 the growth rate of America’s foreign investments had already overleaped those of Britain, standing at $17,000 m. against the latter’s $19,000, and way ahead of France’s $7,000 m. America’s foreign investment position was supreme by 1949 – $19,000 m. against Britain’s $12,000 m., the level at which it had opened the century. France’s level had sunk to $2,000 m. The first world war eliminated Germany’s foreign investments and reduced those of France; the second world war eliminated Germany, Italy and Japan. The American Government, moreover, had added $14,000 m. to its monopolists’ $19,000 m. of private foreign investments. The Government loans ‘are political loans rather than direct profit-making investments. But they enhance the position of United States finance-capital, by providing markets for surplus goods and by increasing profits of private American investors in the borrowing countries’. [See American Imperialism, Perlo, pp. 28-29.]The second world war gave explosive momentum to American capitalism and helped it to increase its overseas investment and exports of manufactured goods to the colonial preserves of European and Japanese imperialism. In the decade 1938-48 America’s share of the imports into these territories rose from 11 per cent to 25 per cent. Her African trade in the period went from $150 m. to $1,200 m., at which figure it represents almost 15 per cent of all Africa’s foreign trade.

>American monopoly’s appetite was whetted by the income $18,000 m. by which it had profited from its foreign investments in the period 1920-48. The prospects in 1948 looked even richer, and proved so. Between 1950 and 1959 private American firms invested $4,500 m. in the developing countries and made three times as much. Net profits came to $8,300 m., to which can be added millions of dollars in trading profits, interest on loans, freight charges and other ancillary operations. All of this was helped along by Marshall Aid (the Economic Co-operation Administration), born out of the marriage between the American State and monopoly. The dollar was brandished as the universal cure-me-quick for Europe, bringing fat super profits to its American owners. In the confusion and devastation left by war, they were to slip unobtrusively into the cosy corners from which the European imperialists would be edged out both from Europe and its territories overseas. American financial and industrial capital used the opportunity which Europe’s post-war weakness offered to draw upon its resources. It fed on war-ruined Europe, though not to the same degree as Western imperialism exploited the colonial and semi-colonial world. The powerful German metallurgical and chemical trusts, Vereinigte Stahlwerke and I. G. Farben, were broken down. The West German State established in 1949 came under a military occupation that controlled its foreign trade, its foreign policy and defence. Of the factories which had escaped wartime destruction, some were dismantled. Many of Germany’s best scientists and technicians were lured to America and Britain. The secrets and patents of the large trusts were appropriated, the archives of the most important bank, the Deutsche Bank, turned over to the occupying forces by Dr Hermann J. Abs, Hitler’s despoiler of Yugoslavia, who was saved from the death to which he was condemned first by the British and then by the American military authorities. Germany was being made safe for the democracy of its imperialist conquerors. The Marshall Plan was used to push American imperialist penetrations into the fragmented German industries and financial institutions, into which it bought heavily. Large sums were also handed out to French and Belgian mining concerns in order to tighten the links with American capitalism and support its domination.

>An eye also had to be kept on the socialism that was advancing in Europe and Asia. Before the opening of the 1950s the cold war began to hot up. It was felt that the threat of heavy German competition which had inspired the limitations put upon it by the victorious imperialisms could be cushioned by drawing Germany into Western strategy and by greater participations from United States capital. Germany’s position in the metallurgical and chemical fields began to change as that country was drawn into the over-all pattern of Western defence.

>More energetic exploration for metal and mineral resources was undertaken in Africa and elsewhere. Africa’s raw materials are an important consideration in the military build-up of the NATO countries, in which are included those of the European Common Market. Their industries, especially the strategic and nuclear factories, depend largely upon the primary materials that come from the less developed countries. Post-war Europe sustained a precarious shortage of basic supplies for its steel manufactures. Belgium needed more rich ores, Sweden more coal and coke, which America supplied in return for fine ores. Britain lacked pig iron and scrap, her coke was short and inferior. Both France and Germany had fallen behind in coke supplies. Production of Lorraine coal was declining because of lack of equipment, German coal because the Ruhr was producing less. Investment in industries ‘with a high value production’, that is, the mineral transformation and heavy industries, while providing the opportunity to influence the European economies and hence their policies towards United States’ ideological domination, did not give the same scope for the quicker and larger profits that production of primary products in the emergent countries offered.

>The Point Four Programme supported the Marshall Planners in opening up Africa to United States capital and its European associates. Before the second world war only three per cent of America’s foreign investments were in Africa and less than five per cent of the continent’s trade was with the United States. Firestone interests in Liberian rubber and small participations in South African and Rhodesian mines accounted for most of the $200 m. invested in Africa. As the war pushed into this continent, military bases and trade connections were established by the Americans, from which they pursued their greater penetrations after the end of the war. E.C.A. (Marshall Plan) funds financed American exploration groups, sent in the best colonial tradition to prepare the way for mining companies and military expeditions. It was announced by E.C.A. in July 1949 that ‘American experts with Marshall Plan aid are probing Africa from the Atlas Mountains to the Cape of Good Hope for agricultural and mineral wealth’, and later on that ‘opportunities for American capital participation were disclosed in French North African lead mining, French Cameroon tin mining, French Congo lead-zinc mining. …’ An E.C.A. loan to Mines de Zellidja, a French concern under the aegis of the Penarroya company, the fourth largest lead and zinc producer in the world, enabled Newmont Mining Corporation (an American mining and crude oil concern with 30 per cent of its interests in South Africa and Canada) to buy into the company and manage its operations.

>Europe’s post-war instability was turned to United States’ account in the new division of Africa. In the fall of 1949, after America had forced currency devaluation upon the European countries, a committee of leading British and American bankers was formed to push U.S. investments in Africa and other parts of the still remaining British Empire. A similar committee with similar purpose was established two months later between American bankers and those of France. The hand of these establishments is seen today all over Africa in the consortia that are fast laying a grip on the continent’s riches. Rockefeller, Morgan, Kuhn Loeb and Dillon Read institutions; the big British banks, Barclays, Lloyds, Westminster, Provincial, the investment houses pivoted around Hambros, Rothschild, Phillip Hill; the French banks, Banque de Paris et des Pays Bas, Banque de l'Union Parisienne, Banque de l'Indochine, Union Européen Industrielle, Banque Worms, Crédit Lyonnais, Lazard Frères, etc., and the leading German and Italian banks.

>These and their associates are the financial institutions that dominate the monetary and fiscal sectors of many of the newly independent States. They support the new industrial revolution of automation, electronics and nuclear and space development, in which America plays the lead and which has swept U.S. imperialism to its present ascendancy. American groups dominant in the mining and ore processing and finishing industries are involved directly or through their bankers and financing houses in ventures with leading European producers and their financial backers. The finance-capitalists who control the leading corporations in the extractive, metallurgical, chemical, nuclear and space industries of the west are to be seen stretching out across the seven seas and taking command of the sources of primary materials in Asia, Oceania, Australia, New Zealand, Central and South America, and Africa. U.S. investments in Canada in 1962 went up by nearly $700 m., mostly for developing iron ore properties. An additional $270 m. invested in other developed countries went mainly to Australia and Japan. Latin American investments of United States capital increased by $250 m. in 1962. In the previous year the increase was over $400 m. The U.S. Department of Commerce reported that private American investments and assets overseas reached $60,000 m. at the end of 1962 and advanced a further $3,000 m. in the first six months of 1963. Private investors in the United States added $4,300 m. in 1962 to their holdings of assets and investments abroad.

>Direct private American investment in Africa increased between 1945 and 1958 from $110 m. to $789 m., most of it drawn from profits. Of the increase of $679 m. actual new money invested during the period was only $149 m., United States profits from these investments, including reinvestment of surpluses, being estimated at $704 m. As a result African countries sustained losses of $555 m. If allowance is made for grants for ‘non-military’ purposes, estimated then by U.S. Congress at $136 m., Africa’s net total losses still reached $419 m. Official American statistics put the gross profits made by U.S. monopolies in Africa between 1946-59 at $1,234 m., though other estimates place them at $1,500 m. Whichever way they are looked at, it requires no great mathematical mind to make out from these figures the almost hundred per cent profitability on investment in Africa.

>The avid explorations that have gone on apace in the last two or three decades for additional reserves of all the metals and minerals that are important for modern industrial supremacy have been instigated by the drive for monopoly, upon which supremacy and its super-profits rest. A recent example makes the principle clear. Alcan Industries, a British associate of Alcoa (Aluminium Company of America) through Alcan (Aluminium Ltd. of Canada), according to a Sunday Times headline (issue of 18 October 1964), wrapped up ‘the last of the foil’. That is, Alcan Industries paid £6 m. to take over the last independent firm (Fisher’s Foils) in British aluminium foil making, having already swallowed most of the rest. This was done, it is said, to bring about ‘rationalisation’. But in boardroom talk it has another meaning, ‘sewing up the industry’.

>Part of the objective of gaining control of industries and new-found raw materials’ sources is to deprive rivals of their use. The manipulation of artificial scarcity is another of monopoly’s tactics for maintaining profits. For three years until mid-1964 the big copper companies were running production at between 80 and 85 per cent of capacity to keep up prices. Steel production, too, was held back to something like 80 per cent of capacity. Exploitation under imperialism does not, nor will, always follow upon the finding of new sources of raw materials. Whoever monopolises the major sources of supply controls output by having the decisive voice in what deposits shall or shall not be worked, and to what degree.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:21:38 No.1605616

>Monopoly allows the monopolists to manipulate the economies of other countries in their interests. In the case of bauxite, for instance, Mellon-dominated Alcoa is sovereign and has drawn into its orbit the other major producers, Kaiser and Reynolds. Because of the tremendous cost of building power plants, upon which the conversion of bauxite into alumina depends, the exploitation of all known reserves of this ore by private capital would defeat the prime incentive of monopoly – profit – for the super-abundant production that would result would depress prices. West Africa is exceptionally rich in bauxite, but the individual countries are not equally favoured with the power to develop resources. Ghana is providing hydro-electric power which could be used to convert alumina in both Ghana and Guinea. This would be a welcome cooperative effort within the framework of a united continental economy.

>Another weapon that is held over the heads of the primary producing countries is the threat of using synthetic alternatives, and the replacement of traditional metals by others. Synthetic diamond plants have been established by De Beers, the world’s monopolist in natural diamonds, by the Belgian company, MIBA, which controls Congo’s natural diamonds, the largest supplier in Africa, by the General Electric Corporation in the U.S. and by Japan. The price of copper was held down by the main producers on the London metal market at a period of recession in its marketing because of the likely use of aluminium in its place for certain purposes, while plastics, on the other hand, are frequently proposed as an alternative to aluminium. Vast sums are expended in research for new materials and in scientific invention of labour-saving machinery and equipment. Thus metals that are being threatened with substitution are at the same time being developed for a wider variety of finished goods. Such research projects and the resultant re-equipment of factories and industries which must be done if the original investment is to be justified, calls for tremendous capital sums which frequently can only be met from the assets of financial and insurance establishments. Consequently, banks and insurance companies dominate industrial finance and exercise a leading role in the push for monopolist ascendancy. The banks and insurance companies have been foremost in the process that has brought monopoly to its present peak, and it is their financial power that supports the increasing movement towards greater and greater concentration of monopoly.

>Today, competition in the thrust to secure and hold monopoly over whole industries and sources of raw materials has intensified to the point where mergers are taking place at a dizzy rate. The struggle is grimly tense and in the ding-dong battle for domination a truce is arranged at critical points, by which influence is divided with mutual consent. Harmony, however, is more apparent than real. The struggle for re-division is proceeding all the time, and the changes that take place within the combining organisations are observed to be more and more frequent.

>Present-day monopoly is highly variegated and spread out. While it draws its strength from its monopolistic position, it is on the other hand seriously exposed to the dangers that face a multiple organism that stretches its limbs to extremity in different directions. A fracture at any one point can lead to a disjunction which may unbalance the structure. And the monopoly’s rivals are always on the alert to spot its most exposed parts in order to deliver a blow that will enable the most relentless competitor to insinuate into the broken organ. Hence monopoly, having passed through the stages of cartelisation, combine, trust and syndicate, is today more and more making use of a further protective safeguard. That is the consortium, through which it aims at immobilising the rivals and disarming the associates who are permitted to join this most ravishing of imperialist contrivances. Usually in a consortium there is a dominant party, either directly or through (and with) affiliates and associates, which enables it to exert the largest influence upon the affairs of the consortium. Furthermore, each of the parties to the consortium will have its own string of appendages or even a principal standing outside the consortium. All continue the fight outside, while those within exercise their efforts to enlarge the importance of their share of the group activities. For example, as a monopoly it will be in control of a complex of companies connected at many levels with the production of primary materials, their processing from the original state right through all the stages of transformation into a variety of semi-finished and finished goods from the most ordinary article to the most complicated and delicate equipment and heavy plant and machinery. The monopoly does not restrict itself to a single raw material, though it will be pre-eminent in one or two. Nor does it restrict itself to any particular department of manufacture or enterprise that may be ancillary to its basic activities, though here again it may specialise in certain lines. Many monopolies branch into real estate and land development projects, as construction and contracting work bring quick and high returns and high rents. This form of capital investment is growing rapidly in the present era of enlarging industrialisation and the growth of new towns, and extends to large-scale agriculture.

>In Africa the consortium is making the most sinister penetrations. It extends from the monopolistic amalgamations of American and European finance-capital, particularly those combined within the European Common Market, where financial consortia have been set up as the most effective means of profiting from the competitive struggle that is spiralling within this so-called unifying organisation. The prime objective is to monopolise Africa’s sources of raw materials, not, as it is claimed, to assist the African countries to develop their economies. For the materials are carried off largely in their raw state or as concentrates to enhance the productive output of the imperialist countries and to be returned to them in the form of heavy equipment for extractive industry and the infrastructure for carrying the resources away.

>It is out of revenue from the trade in these materials that the African countries look to amass part of the capital that will make it possible for them to utilise these same commodities in the service of their own development. Paradoxically, however, these precious counters in Africa’s future are meantime being used to widen the economic gap between her and the highly industrialised countries, which are hurriedly exploiting the opportunity to make good deficiencies in their economies. Since those who are carrying on the exploitation are also the monopolists who manipulate the markets for primary products at the one end and the price for the final products at the other, the countries of origin must be pinned down to a long wait before they can tackle on a major scale the capital problem facing all the developing countries of seriously raising the standard of life of their people, if they make no effort to gird their resources in a more practical and self-supporting manner. This is the answer to those pious economists who assure us that what matters is not what is taken out of our lands but what is left behind.

>The reply has been given by the Commission for Aid to Development of O.E.C.D. in its estimate that if the industrial countries continue to increase their gross national product by three per cent per annum, it will take the less developed countries two hundred years at least to catch up with their standard of living, assuming that the unindustrialised nations reach an annual increase of five per cent. Yet how problematical the achievement of this five per cent remains in the light of the drain on resources from the less developed countries to the highly developed ones. In most African countries the rate of rise in the domestic product has barely kept pace with the rate of population growth of two and a half to three per cent. It is the less developed countries that continue to carry the burden of the increasing development of the highly developed. Firestone, for example, has taken $160 m. worth of rubber out of Liberia in the past quarter century. In return the Liberian Government has received a paltry $8 m. The average net profit made by this American company is three times the entire Liberian revenue.

>From south to north, financial and industrial consortia have spread across Africa, busily staking out claims to mineral, metal and fuel resources, to forest and land produce, and erecting extractive and primary conversion industries in which they are entrenched as stanchions. In Algeria, for example, the really big investment stampede coincided with the war of national liberation. Between 1951 and 1955 there was an inrush of French and French-American investment greater than ever before. Win or lose, the financial and industrial interests were entrenching themselves within the Algerian economy. Throughout Africa the industrial giants are supported by financial institutions which dominate the monetary and fiscal sectors of so many of the independent States. Most heavily engaged are the mammoth banking and insurance institutions and the multi-millionaire companies they control, bolstered by the international institutions like the World Bank and its affiliates. These formidable alliances radiate from the United States, Britain, Germany, France, Holland, Italy, Sweden. They move around the metallurgical and chemical combines with the E.C.S.C. (European Coal and Steel Community), such as Sollac, G.I.S. (Groupement de l'Industrie Sidérurgique), Sidelor (Union Sidérurgique Lorraine), Usinor (Union Sidérurgique du Nord de la France), Krupp, Thyssen, Kuhlmann, Pierrelatte, Farbwerke Hoechst, Bayer, BASF (Badische Anilin & Soda Fabrik), I.C.I. They are in the assemblages of bankers such as Consafrique (Consortium Européen pour le Développement des Ressources Naturelles de l'Afrique), situated at the same address as the International Bank in Luxembourg; Eurofin, Compagnie Bancaire, Finsider, Cofimer, Union Européenne Industrielle et Financière, and others.

>Powerful American corporations like Bethlehem Steel, United States Steel, Republic Steel, Armco Steel, Newmont Mining, Johns Manville, Union Carbide, Olin Mathieson, Alcoa, Kaiser, crop up among all the post-war primary materials producing projects on this continent. Their alliances are spread among the leading metallurgical and financial companies of Europe in combinations that mask the underlying competition. This competitiveness erupts to the surface when circumstances cause a breakdown in the facade of peaceful co-existence between rival imperialists operating in the sovereign States of others, to which they make assumptions of power and use as pawns in the struggle for monopolistic supremacy. Gabon is vocal testimony to these assertions. Mass discontent with the existing regime which led to the disorders of February 1964 was the occasion utilised by France to warn the United States that she would brook no encroachment on the claims she lays to the manganese, uranium, and oil riches of this, her former colony. Neglected under the colonial regime, these resources have assumed inestimable value to France in the struggle against the advance of American imperialism in Europe in the new epoch of atomic rivalry. France sent in paratroopers to force the issue of whose pawn Gabon would remain. United States Steel may have been the dominant participation in Comilog (Cie de l'Ogooue), which is working on the bed of the vastly rich Franceville manganese deposits, but France, through the Cie de Mines d'Uranium de Franceville, controls the uranium field at Mounana, and is urgently occupied in the attempt to foil the aspirations of the American oil barons to undisputed access to Gabon’s offshore petroleum reaches.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:27:34 No.1605619

File: 1695454054401.jpg (24.09 KB, 400x397, 1694795225011678.jpg)

>>1605609
cont this is kind of a bit sad given

your article concludes
<Referencing Lenin’s statement on imperialism, Russia is not a player in the dominance of monopolies and finance capital, nor does the export of capital play an important role (save the negative effect of on-going capital flight), nor do Russian trusts play any essential role in the division of the world resources.

<Russia can be ranked as one of the world’s most powerful states only based on its military strength. Economically it shares the characteristics not of an advanced capitalist state, but of one on the capitalist semi-periphery. It plays very little part in the quintessential imperialist activity: the export of capital to the periphery and the extraction of profit from developing countries’ labor and resources. Russia’s finance capital is small, its exports predominantly raw materials, its industry weak, its multinational corporations minor, its economy plagued by low labor productivity.

Now lets read what your article said about Cyprus

<Lenin stated that “(3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance.” Russia does have a substantial export of capital, but this comes in the form of capital flight, to tax havens such as Cyprus and the British Virgin Islands. Russia’s Central Bank put the country’s net capital flight in 2014 at $154.1 billion, and the total since Putin came into office in 1999 to 2014 at about $550 billion. The actual total through 2014 may be greater than $1 trillion. The Central Bank put Russian capital flight in 2018 at $66 billion.

But let's look into it a bit deeper
<Another key conduit country for Russian capitalists is Cyprus. Bulatov points out that:

<“…at least five leading Russian Federation banks (VTB, Alfa Bank, AvoVAZbank, Privatbank, Promsvyazbank) have affiliates in Cyprus, as do numerous financial and investment affiliates of other Russian Federation parent companies. This island country is the most attractive offshore jurisdiction for Russian Federation investors…, not due to its corporate tax rate for offshore companies (which is higher than in many other offshore entities at 12.5 per cent) but due to numerous tax treaties with other offshore entities (which provide easy conduits to offshore entities with lower taxation rates) and also because the civil code of Cyprus is based on United Kingdom law.”
—Ibid.

<Bulatov reports that in 2014 Russia’s outward FDI stock (accumulated flow) in Cyprus was $105 billion, while the inward FDI stock in Russia from Cyprus was $101 billion (representing approximately 27% of Russia’s total stock for both measures). Undoubtedly some of the “Cypriot” capital exported to Russia was of German and other non-Russian origin, though a majority was almost certainly Russian.

<Curiously, “Cyprus” is the largest foreign investor in Ukraine, with just under $14 billion FDI stock, as of January 2015. Nominally, Russia, with $2.7 billion FDI stock, is only the fourth-largest source of FDI in Ukraine, behind Cyprus, Germany and the Netherlands. However, accounting for trans-shipment, the OECD estimated the real level of Russian investments to be about $9.9 billion. Part of the figure included investments from “Dutch” company VEON.

Your "article" was nothing more but a copout that downplayed Russia's imperialist actions because "its not as mean and scawy as NATO"- as if that's not just blatant lesser evilism.

So that's one article i've read and chewed out. I'll get to the next one in due time.

>>1605616
>>1605615
>>1605614
<if i quote enough I win- never mind the article references Russia engaging in neocolonialism
Awww, I broke him.

Not my fault that you don't read what you post.
>but i gave you a definition of neocolonialism
Which the article im quoting refers to.

This really ain't your day, ain't it?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:41:00 No.1605623

>>1605619
FDI is disconnected from imperialism under modern global capitalism. The 5 basic features are an example for Lenin's time period and not meant as a checklist, but you have already been told this, and that its not materialist or dialectical and why.

>your article concludes
You are reading the wrong article. The one with the chart is here.
https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2019/11/14/hm2-the-economics-of-modern-imperialism/

Its also posted in the archive multiple times and has been posted since before the war started. You aren't bringing anything new here you are just rehashing arguments that are over 100 years old.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:46:20 No.1605626

File: 1695455180757.jpg (75.01 KB, 600x891, 1695081672495071.jpg)

>>1605623
>FDI is disconnected from imperialism under global capitalism
<The 5 basic features are an example for lenins time period and not meant as a checklist-
Then why bother linking this article then when it does excatly that?

https://mronline.org/2019/01/02/is-russia-imperialist/

Must suck being caught lying seeing as you linked it here:
>>1584978

So just to conclude, you're a scum fucking liar and everything that comes out of your scum fuckposts will be interpreted as such.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:47:34 No.1605627

File: 1695455253912.png (168.52 KB, 382x346, 1694964645061.png)

>>1605626
So, i'll see you soon enough when I debunk your next bullshit article, and your bullshit revisionism.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:51:27 No.1605630

File: 1695455487424.gif (583.99 KB, 460x600, cdd7c385a3702ba5fe1892443c….gif)

>>1605626
>>1605597
Where does that article talk about G7 and have that chart?

It's ironic, because you still refuse to read what i've linked and then proceed to act like an illiterate and gaslight others. In a way I almost admire your constant projection- if it wasn't so pathetic.

The amount of time it takes to refute bullshit takes longer than it does to make it- but im sure you know that all too well.

In other words, don't bother lying to me or my son ever again.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 07:53:52 No.1605634

>>1605627
anfem rojavaflag pls answer this:
is russia more progressive than america?
note: i didn't ask whether you consider them progressive "in general", i'm just asking if, in comparison, russia is more reactionary than america, so don't pull this >>1605545 crap again

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 08:19:36 No.1605644

>>1605606
https://www.usdebtclock.org

US is losing money just by simply existing. Other countries have to be fiscally responsible, and export more than they import. US just prints money. The exorbitant privilege.

You have no idea what losing the #1 spot in global capitalism actually entails, and how much blood will be shed in this "mere competition".

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 08:31:46 No.1605650

File: 1695457905376.jpg (288.72 KB, 1128x768, 1681592748891.jpg)

>>1605630
>if i repeat what they say back at them i win
>where does that article talk about g7 and have that chart

<It is characteristic of imperialist powers that they form more or less temporary alliances with each other, in a series of shifting and competing blocs. During the Cold War period, under the “Washington Consensus,” this setup was remarkably stable, but since then the cracks have already shown. The U.S. has tried to minimize the influence of Russia in the global capitalist institutions it dominates, such as the IMF, World Bank, the WTO and G7 (previously the G8, including Russia), which themselves represent uneasy alliances between the U.S. and its EU and Japanese competitors. But Russia is not isolated in the global capitalist system. Aside from exercising its geopolitical muscle in the UN Security Council, Russia has initiated and/or participated in competing bodies, including the Eurasian Economic Union and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, along with China. In a sense, Moscow’s diplomacy and geopolitical strategy reflect a defensive posture, as its sphere of influence in Eastern Europe has been encroached upon by Western imperialism since the fall of the Soviet Union. Vladimir Putin has indicated on several occasions a willingness to cooperate, essentially as a junior partner, with the U.S., which has nonetheless spurned his advances. It is in this context that Russia has sought to reassert itself as a global power befitting its transformation from an economically disintegrating neocolony in the 1990s into a viable, albeit economically weak, imperialist state in the 2000s. Its efforts have been unexpectedly successful.

<In August 2008, Russia quickly smashed the attempt by Georgia to regain control of South Ossetia, demonstrating to the world a capacity to exercise its considerable military power independently of the will of Western imperialism. The war hawks in Washington, such as the late Senator John McCain, were virtually frothing at the mouth at the audacity of Russia in attacking their client state in the Caucasus. In Ukraine in 2014, following the overthrow of the Moscow-friendly Yanukovych government by Western-backed far-right forces, Russia assisted separatist rebels in Eastern Ukraine and annexed Crimea, home to the important Russian naval base in Sevastopol.

<The complicated civil war in Ukraine and the geopolitical tug-of-war between Western and Russian imperialists undergirding it are conflicts in which Marxists take no sides. While we support the right of all nations to self-determination, in the case of the interpenetration of different peoples in Eastern Ukraine, it is impossible to resolve this question equitably for all sides under capitalism. The presence of an inter-imperialist territorial struggle even complicates more “traditional” national questions. A majority of Crimeans voted to re-join Russia, and under normal circumstances Marxists would defend their right to do so. However, in the present context, we cannot affirm either the right of Russia to keep Crimea or the right of imperialist-backed Ukraine to retake it – to do so would mean promoting one or the other side in the inter-imperialist conflict between Russia and the West in which revolutionary internationalists should be dual defeatist.

<Russia’s boldest move on the geopolitical chessboard has been to insert itself in the Middle East in an attempt to secure existing military and economic interests and minimize American meddling in the region. Moscow’s intervention in the Syrian civil war on the side of Bashar al-Assad was a decisive factor in shifting the balance of power back to the regime. Washington’s decision, announced in December 2018, to withdraw all U.S. troops from Syria due to military victory over ISIS was in effect a declaration of defeat – a major blow to the influence of the traditionally dominant imperialist powers in the region to the advantage of Russia.

<Russia’s claiming of Crimea was primarily designed to protect the port at Sevastopol and the passage through the Kerch Strait into the Black Sea and then the Mediterranean. Russian vessels in the Mediterranean are based on the Syrian coast at Tartus, where Moscow’s support to the Assad government was rewarded in January 2018 with an agreement to vastly expand the existing naval base to house larger and nuclear-armed warships and for Russia to hold sovereignty over the territory. An accompanying deal covers the Khmeimim airfield, which was built in 2015 to facilitate Russian intervention in the war but is now being developed as a long-term Russian base in the Middle East (dw.com, 20 January 2017).

<While no one is currently making much money out of war-torn Syria, there is potential for future gain. With naval and air bases established, Russia is now in a better position to protect and expand existing investments in Iraq and elsewhere in the region. Moscow and Damascus have been negotiating lucrative contracts for Russian capital:

“In accordance with an energy cooperation framework agreement signed in late January, Russia will have exclusive rights to produce oil and gas in Syria.
“The agreement goes significantly beyond that, stipulating the modalities of the rehabilitation of damaged rigs and infrastructure, energy advisory support, and training a new generation of Syrian oilmen. Still, the main international aspect and the key piece of this move is the final and unconditional consolidation of Russian interests in the Middle East.”
—Oilprice.com, 14 February 2018

<Russia’s intervention in support of the Syrian government mirrors interventions of rival imperialists (the U.S., Britain and France in particular) in favor of anti-regime forces. Although these interventions have been less successful and at times less direct, the conflict as a whole is defined by inter-imperialist rivalry. As in Ukraine, Marxists have no side in the Syrian civil war or the imperialist struggle weaving through it and demand the departure of all imperialist forces from the region. We oppose all attacks on civilian populations and recognize the right of communities, including the Kurds, to defend themselves against genocidal pogroms.

<The spectacular re-emergence of Russia as an imperialist power is both symptom and cause of the increasingly fractured system of inter-imperialist relations. The international situation is very fluid. A rapprochement between Russia and the U.S. is not out of the question, though the American military-industrial-intelligence complex appears determined to foreclose that option. As Russia turns east to strengthen its alliance with China, a bloc between Russian imperialism and its German/EU imperialist competitors also remains a possibility.

>>1605634
Well yes and no- because Russia and America are organised differently- in spite of them both being reactionary. What i mean by this "Yes and no" is how they compare domestically vs how they compare internationally.
I'll get to the point and say that internationally speaking- without a doubt, the US takes the cake. Pic related etc. I've yet to see Russia do something as remotely fucked as the Iraq war or the constant repression the US does to Cuba, or as something as purely vile as the vietnam war. They have committed more blatant acts of imperialism, neo-colonialism, genocide in comparisson to russia. But again, as mentioned before, considering Russia is arguably doing these policies, why should I adopt lesser evilism?
>but don't you want the US gone
Of course i do- but i don't believe that a far right wing anti-communist government like russia is the best one to to take down a far rightwing anti-communist government like America.
Do you understand what i mean by "nationalisation of the economy isn't progressive in it of itself"?

As for the no- this where things in my opinion get mixed. this is in reference to the various states of the USA which have their own laws regarding minorities- racial and sexual, as well as different laws concerning abortion.
With Russia on the other hand- this policy is uniform throughout- save for arguably some differences in laws regarding the semi-autonomous republics within its borders- but i've yet to see any pro LGBTQ policies regarding these semi-autonomous republics.
But back to the topic of the USA:
While America does arguably have better policies regarding trans people in comparisson to russia- this policy is not uniform and varies state to state. I'd hardly call this "progressive" considering the opression of LGBTQ people and racial minorities is still a class issue and effects working class people of these groups and is still done.

Let me put it this way- i could also argue Australia is more "progressive" than the USA, but even then- that's not much of a stretch considering our government is also imperialist and has its fair share of war crimes and genocide. And even though we're having the Voice being voted on, it's a cop out to say
"well at least Australia is more progressive than the US".

Hope this answers your question- anon.

>>1605644
The ride truly never ends, does it?
but with the millions of dollars the US making from this war, won't this provide an extra source of income- that is if they're able to keep it going

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 08:37:47 No.1605653

>>1605626
>Then why bother linking this article then when it does excatly that?
Its an exercise to show that even by that criteria Russia isn't imperialist. You are getting caught up in minutiae again instead of understanding that the mistake is on a more fundamental level, that imperialism is a stage of capitalist development, its an ordering of material relations of production that emerge out of fully developed capitalism, not a set of policies or when you reach a specific level of investment.

Similarly with progress, its not good or bad ideas, or a set level of human rights measured in abstract compared against the world, or various measurements removed from their material contexts and compared in a vacuum, it is a positive rate of change in the development of productive forces. Developing capitalism is progressive, developed capitalism is imperialism.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 08:41:20 No.1605655

>>1605650
why are we only looking at gender for these comparisons though? abortion rights are better in russia and they have free public healthcare to name two clear examples
they also don't have nazis marching down the street to scream about muh white replacement either, nor do they have incels shooting up walmart wалмарт because they can't get SEX with le trad wife

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 08:41:58 No.1605656

>>1605650
>but with the millions of dollars the US making from this war, won't this provide an extra source of income
US is boosting their own profitability at the expense of hollowing out and torpedoing their own allies' economies, which relied on cheap Russian energy for their profitability. Industrial porky may not be in charge of EU, so they won't actually stop it, but NATO, as a material military force is degrading. Instead of feasting on Russia's corpse, they are devouring one another.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 08:45:53 No.1605661

File: 1695458753094.png (146.59 KB, 985x844, ClipboardImage.png)

>>1605650
>where does that article talk about g7
>and have that chart

you are getting your articles mixed up again. are you just stomping now around to muddy the water hoping no one will notice?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 08:55:35 No.1605669

File: 1695459335105.png (14.34 KB, 593x356, Russia_graph_4.PNG)

>>1605655
>they don't have nazis marching down the street screaming about muh white replacement either
Neither does Australia- we've yet to have our own "unite the right" rally, but i wouldn't call Australia "progressive"- even if they ban the Nazi salute.

>abortion rights are better in Russia
They're better in Australia too- yet I still wouldn't call my country "progressive".
Even America has better domestic laws regarding domestic violence than Russia does. Is America "progressive" now?

Of course not.

>>1605653
>Its an exercise to show that even by that criteria Russia isn't imperialist
Even though the article that i linked debunks each and every one of those claims made by said article- the article mind you which you linked uses Lenins criteria.
<are you just stomping now around to muddy the water hoping no one will notice?
Projection

>>1605661
<still didn't read the article
And you have the absolute gaul to accuse me of not reading.

So again- more lies.

As for your chart

<While capital export from the highly monopolized energy sector predominates, Russian corporations in other industries have made significant investments abroad, securing important markets and establishing an external revenue base. According to the EDB, the major sectors of Russian outward FDI in 2016 were oil and gas (34.3 percent), communication and IT (19.7 percent), finance (12.9 percent) and mechanical engineering (6 percent). Collins notes:

“In 2004, Russia’s leading mobile operator MTS acquired a 74 per cent share in Uzbekistan’s leading operator, Uzabunorbita. Russia’s second-largest mobile operator VimpelCom acquired a stake in Kazakhstan’s second-largest operator, KaR-Tel in 2005. VimpelCom also has operations in Tajikistan and the Ukraine, with plans to expand into Vietnam and Cambodia. Mobile TeleSystems (MTS) is a market leader in wireless communication in various CIS countries, including the Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, and Belarus. It is the largest company of Sistema Holdings, which itself has acquired licences to operate in India with plans to enter China and Bangladesh. VimpelCom is the most active globally expanding MNE among the Russian telecom firms.”
…
“Russian telecommunications firms are rapidly catching up with the natural resources-based and heavy manufacturing-based conglomerates on the global scene.
“In software and IT services, Russia is behind only the US in the number of companies that operate internationally in this sector. There are also some globally active technology-based Russian MNEs, particularly in information and communications technology. The anti-virus internet firm Kaspersky was created in 1997 and had developed a global presence by the end of 2005, expanding into 10 foreign locations including in Asia, Europe, and the US. Another Russian high technology firm, NT-MDT (Nanotechnology-Modular Devices and Tools) established an affiliate in Ireland in 2005 to carry out assembly, testing, and after-sales services as well as research and development. The Russian holding company GIS acquired French microelectronics manufacturer Altis Semiconductor in 2007.… The Russian IT sector is now perceived to be highly stable and is consequently able to attract capital from private and institutional investors to fuel internationalization.”

<Wladimir Andreff reports:

“…Russian OFDI started booming in the 2000s in more modernised parts of the manufacturing industry with Sistema group (which owns MTS) in telephone production, Sitronics in telecom equipment, Vimpelcom, Altimo, Megafon and Alfa Group in telecom, Korolev Rocket and Space Corporation Energia in aeronautics, RTI Systems in aerospace and missile production, NPO Mashinostroyenia in military equipment. Big Russian insurance and financial companies and big banks have developed and internationalised in the formerly underdeveloped (Soviet) services industry such as Sberbank, VTB, Gazprombank, Alfa-bank and Bank of Moscow.”
—“Outward Foreign Direct Investment from BRIC countries,” The European Journal of Comparative Economics 12(2), 2015

<Digital Sky Technologies (DST) Global, headquartered in Hong Kong but owned by Russian tech billionaire Yuri Milner and supported in part by VTB Bank, has invested billions of dollars in Facebook, Twitter, Spotify, Airbnb, Alibaba and other internet companies (New York Times, 5 November 2017). Milner has also invested several hundred million dollars in India (iPleaders.in).

<None of this is to suggest that Russia is on the same economic level as first-tier imperialist countries, although it compares on many measures with lesser but well-established imperialists. While Russian industrial corporations have made massive investments abroad, “no one Russian MNC has entered yet the list of top 100 biggest non-financial MNCs ranked by UNCTAD according to the value of their foreign assets” (Andreff). That list is dominated by the U.S., Britain, Germany, Japan and France. Like Russia, Canada has none, and the Netherlands has only one entry (the Amsterdam-based French telecom Altice), as do Belgium and Australia. Russia’s banking system (i.e., financial capital in the narrow sense of the term) is comparatively weak, having, for instance, no presence on UNCTAD’s list of the top 50 financial transnational corporations (TNCs). Nor does Belgium, while Italy, Spain and Canada each have only one.

<The reasons why Russian corporations invest abroad are complex, but it is clear that the astronomical growth of Russia’s outward FDI in the mid 2000s was accompanied by a shift away from capital flight to profit-seeking and market-procuring through various means. One study explains “the changing strategies of outward investing Russian firms: in the early 1990s, they were mostly privately owned TNCs, seeking ‘safety nests’ abroad to protect themselves from domestic uncertainty; these days, State-owned or -influenced TNCs dominate Russian capital exports, motivated by a desire to control the value chain of their products” (Kalman Kalotay and Astrit Sulstarova, “Modelling Russian outward FDI”). UNCTAD adds that Russia’s profile differs from that of the other so-called BRIC countries:

“In contrast to TNCs from other BRICS countries, the main aim of Russian TNCs is not simply to secure the supply of raw materials to their home country, but also to expand their control over the value chains of their own natural resources, to build sustainable competitive advantages vis-à-vis other firms, and to strengthen their market positions in key developing countries. For example Rosneft formed [a] joint-venture with CNPC (China) to develop oil extraction projects in the Russian Federation and downstream operations in China.”

Another study observes:

“The typical FDI motives of Russian multinationals, especially in mergers and acquisitions (M&As), are quests for markets and resources.… Their FDI can also be strategic-asset-seeking, especially for Russian machinery MNEs from the ‘second echelon’.… For example, Borodino group acquired Jobs and some other Italian companies in 2007–2009 to strengthen its machine-tool division. Efficiency-seeking FDI is driving Russian MNEs’ investments abroad only in a few countries where labor costs are lower than in Russia. Such FDI is more typical for mid-sized MNEs. For instance, the Russian leader of the clothing industry, Gloria Jeans, has built several workshops in Ukraine.”
—“Global Expansion of Russian Multinationals after the Crisis: Results of 2011,” Vale Columbia Center on Sustainable Investment, April 2013

<Imperialist countries invest in neocolonies for a variety of reasons: to obtain natural resources and markets; to secure spheres of influence for geopolitical purposes; and to make super-profits by exploiting cheap labor. Russian investments are based on the same motives, though as a newcomer on the imperialist stage, strategic/geopolitical calculations are likely more prominent than they are for other imperialists – Russia appears to have a longer-term perspective aimed at securing further markets and spheres of influence. Moscow often brokers deals to cut the price of its energy commodities in exchange for domination of local markets and access to investment opportunities. Yet Russia, although its own labor costs are very low compared to other imperialist powers, still engages in “efficiency-seeking” investment as well. While it invests in imperialist countries and in neocolonial countries where wages are higher (e.g., Poland), it also exports capital to several neocolonial countries where wages are lower than in Russia (see Graph 4).

Graph 4: Nominal monthly wage 2017 (national currency converted to USD end of 2018). Data from ILO,

https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_650553.pdf

You're not very smart, are you?

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 09:06:42 No.1605673

>>1605669
You are still doing it. It doesn't matter how many facts you list you can't prove Russia is imperialist because imperialism isn't determined by a sufficient quantity of imperialism points its determined by a qualitatively different position within world trade that Russia is precluded from by its level of capitalist development which we can now remind you was imposed on it by the US.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 09:23:20 No.1605679

File: 1695461000118.png (934.28 KB, 1280x720, 1681167637531545.png)

>>1605673
>you still can't prove russia is imperialist
>despite empirical evidence as to how it is
<y-you're still doing it.
Still exposing you for a liar? Why yes i am.
>imperialism isn't determined by a sufficient quantity of imperialism points its determined by a qualitatively different position within world trade that Russia is precluded from by its level of capitalist development which we can now remind you was imposed on it by the US.
Which if you read anything that i posted you'd know this point is addressed.

But you didn't, because again- you don't read- and then have the absolute audacity to accuse me of not reading.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 09:34:45 No.1605682

File: 1695461684953-0.jpg (89.18 KB, 1200x1042, FrMjCm8XsBAXhRU.jpg)

File: 1695461684953-1.pdf (1.79 MB, 180x255, Hickeletal-Plunderinthepos….pdf)

>>1605669
that graph is from this article
https://bolshevik.org/statements/ibt_20190219_imperialism_21c_russia.html
which is abstracting outward FDI flow and comparing numbers in a vacuum.
Your additional statistics in support of that are irrelevant because that doesn't prove imperialism.

>>1605679
>>despite empirical evidence as to how it is
You haven't shown that, you have a flawed understanding of what constitutes imperialism.

>y-you're still doing it.
You are still taking ideal abstractions and removing them from their material context.

You need to compare net flow which shows that nearly every country in the world has a negative balance compared with the G7.

Anonymous 2023-09-23 (Sat) 09:53:04 No.1605688

File: 1695462783857.jpg (20.38 KB, 473x413, terribletakealap.jpg)

>>1605682
>which is abstracting outward FDI flow and comparing numbers in a vacuum.
>Your additional statistics in support of that are irrelevant because that doesn't prove imperialism.
Which it doesn't and was covered here.
>>1605602
Don't use words you don't understand.
>Your additional statistics in support of that are irrelevant because that doesn't prove imperialism.

Again, as seen here,
>>1605669

this isn't true

>You are still taking ideal abstractions and removing them from their material context.
No im not- as again- the article provides a materialist analysis and covers the material context as seen
>>1605605

>You need to compare net flow which shows that nearly every country in the world has a negative balance compared with the G7.

Again, read
<It is characteristic of imperialist powers that they form more or less temporary alliances with each other, in a series of shifting and competing blocs. During the Cold War period, under the “Washington Consensus,” this setup was remarkably stable, but since then the cracks have already shown. The U.S. has tried to minimize the influence of Russia in the global capitalist institutions it dominates, such as the IMF, World Bank, the WTO and G7 (previously the G8, including Russia), which themselves represent uneasy alliances between the U.S. and its EU and Japanese competitors. But Russia is not isolated in the global capitalist system. Aside from exercising its geopolitical muscle in the UN Security Council, Russia has initiated and/or participated in competing bodies, including the Eurasian Economic Union and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, along with China. In a sense, Moscow’s diplomacy and geopolitical strategy reflect a defensive posture, as its sphere of influence in Eastern Europe has been encroached upon by Western imperialism since the fall of the Soviet Union. Vladimir Putin has indicated on several occasions a willingness to cooperate, essentially as a junior partner, with the U.S., which has nonetheless spurned his advances. It is in this context that Russia has sought to reassert itself as a global power befitting its transformation from an economically disintegrating neocolony in the 1990s into a viable, albeit economically weak, imperialist state in the 2000s. Its efforts have been unexpectedly successful.

<In August 2008, Russia quickly smashed the attempt by Georgia to regain control of South Ossetia, demonstrating to the world a capacity to exercise its considerable military power independently of the will of Western imperialism. The war hawks in Washington, such as the late Senator John McCain, were virtually frothing at the mouth at the audacity of Russia in attacking their client state in the Caucasus. In Ukraine in 2014, following the overthrow of the Moscow-friendly Yanukovych government by Western-backed far-right forces, Russia assisted separatist rebels in Eastern Ukraine and annexed Crimea, home to the important Russian naval base in Sevastopol.

<The complicated civil war in Ukraine and the geopolitical tug-of-war between Western and Russian imperialists undergirding it are conflicts in which Marxists take no sides. While we support the right of all nations to self-determination, in the case of the interpenetration of different peoples in Eastern Ukraine, it is impossible to resolve this question equitably for all sides under capitalism. The presence of an inter-imperialist territorial struggle even complicates more “traditional” national questions. A majority of Crimeans voted to re-join Russia, and under normal circumstances Marxists would defend their right to do so. However, in the present context, we cannot affirm either the right of Russia to keep Crimea or the right of imperialist-backed Ukraine to retake it – to do so would mean promoting one or the other side in the inter-imperialist conflict between Russia and the West in which revolutionary internationalists should be dual defeatist.

<Russia’s boldest move on the geopolitical chessboard has been to insert itself in the Middle East in an attempt to secure existing military and economic interests and minimize American meddling in the region. Moscow’s intervention in the Syrian civil war on the side of Bashar al-Assad was a decisive factor in shifting the balance of power back to the regime. Washington’s decision, announced in December 2018, to withdraw all U.S. troops from Syria due to military victory over ISIS was in effect a declaration of defeat – a major blow to the influence of the traditionally dominant imperialist powers in the region to the advantage of Russia.

<Russia’s claiming of Crimea was primarily designed to protect the port at Sevastopol and the passage through the Kerch Strait into the Black Sea and then the Mediterranean. Russian vessels in the Mediterranean are based on the Syrian coast at Tartus, where Moscow’s support to the Assad government was rewarded in January 2018 with an agreement to vastly expand the existing naval base to house larger and nuclear-armed warships and for Russia to hold sovereignty over the territory. An accompanying deal covers the Khmeimim airfield, which was built in 2015 to facilitate Russian intervention in the war but is now being developed as a long-term Russian base in the Middle East (dw.com, 20 January 2017).

<While no one is currently making much money out of war-torn Syria, there is potential for future gain. With naval and air bases established, Russia is now in a better position to protect and expand existing investments in Iraq and elsewhere in the region. Moscow and Damascus have been negotiating lucrative contracts for Russian capital:

“In accordance with an energy cooperation framework agreement signed in late January, Russia will have exclusive rights to produce oil and gas in Syria.
“The agreement goes significantly beyond that, stipulating the modalities of the rehabilitation of damaged rigs and infrastructure, energy advisory support, and training a new generation of Syrian oilmen. Still, the main international aspect and the key piece of this move is the final and unconditional consolidation of Russian interests in the Middle East.”
—Oilprice.com, 14 February 2018

So Lenins analysis appeals to you only when its suitable, despite the fact that the Mr online article tries to do this and gets refuted by the own criteria he argues for.

Might want to read your sources before posting them, mkay?