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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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 No.211384[Last 50 Posts]



P.S. Despite SOEs generally being inefficient, there are some incredible SOEs out there, like Haier, with their Rendanheyi system combining big data, microenterprises, and blockchain in an attempt to transform the nature of work into something that's not seen in either traditional socialism or capitalism.

These are extremely promising systems; i.e, socialist economies have traditionally have had major issues with their TFP growth, and capitalist economies tend to create high worker alienation.

Haier's attempts at managerial and organizational innovation provide SOLUTIONS to both the problems of capitalism and socialism, and should be read up on by every socialist and communist; i.e, it provides the promise of beating capitalism on a strict economic front, which is something no existing socialist system has been able to achieve to date.



Call it whatever you want, but the Chinese system is clearly superior to all explicitly liberal ones in the world. Particularly the ones in the global south.



Yeah I do agree that private entities are able to reduce costs down far more than SOEs but that’s only really Bcz of the fact that they are far more willing to reduce the overall quality of the produce in question than let’s just say a SOE for instance (this is why the us military has far more higher maintenance costs then let’s just say the Chinese military for instance as us military equipment often takes a lot of time and money to repair in comparison to there Chinese counterparts, this is also done as a strategy by Lockheed Martin and other US defence contractors to increase there own profits by passing legislation that forces the US military to contract out the manufacturers of there own equipment to repair it rather than using there own mechanics to do so, which as you can imagine doesn’t exactly happen within China as capital is more or less under the boot of the CPC and SOEs have to maintain certain standards than let’s just say a private firm who’s main incentive is to pump out as many products as humanly possible so they can be sold on the market)



You’re talking about government contractors, which in the United States have armies of lobbyists to ensure the government will allow the contractor to bullshit the government for free money.

In a socialist country with a planned economy and no private ownership, all companies are de facto government contractors, with internal intraparty ties taking the place of lobbyists.

Notice that Haier is a consumer goods company. I don’t think we’ve yet figured out how to bypass the government contractor problem.



That’s not really the case though because Chinese SOEs are owned by the state and are managed by party officials and while I am aware that Chinese SOEs are not exactly perfect you don’t see them same contracting bs within China that you see in the United States for an example and that’s Bcz of the fact that Chinese SOEs are not independent entities but entities run by the party which means that the government has a far greater deal of control over what is manufactured for its armies for instance while in the US this form of control is left entirely in the hands of independent market contractors that utilise political leverage to be awarded contracts by the government, I am aware the Chinese equipment for awhile was not as advanced as American equipment (again at this point both nations are practically on par with each other when it comes to there technological capabilities with China likely to surpass America by 2030 at this rate) but that’s not necessarily the fault of the SOEs more so just due to the fact that China has only recently become a fully modernised nation less so due to the fault of the SOEs.

Inner party politics I am sure do play a pretty big role in who gets what contracts but I think in comparison to the US for an example this system is way more tame in comparison as again the CEOs of SOEs have different incentives to those or more tradition free market corporations (basically what I’m trying to say is that while lobbying certainly does take place within the CPC it’s generally far more contained and less destructive than let’s just say in America for instance as the corruption purged and organs put in place by Xi have forced most officials to be a hell of a lot more careful and cautious hense limiting the damage there corruption causes.


i agree with finding international anti-west allies, but i think our position should be radically clear in the immediate extermination of private property and democratically - nationalizing such property. I do not think China would showcase the US imperial policy of bombing and occupying so isn't just being anti-american and the fact that China won't intervene in the building of proletariat dictatorship enough to proceed with such a plan ? I really don't give a shit of how Russia nor China treat their own citizens since its their people's right to determine whether they should revolt against any regime or not, they have the right to self determine their rulership by any means they want. So a discussion what is socialist, what is propaganda or not doesn't really concern us at the current time and there are more relevant discussions to be had in our own countries when it comes to the material development of our current state of affairs.



Well, we're careening toward the end times anyways.

AI has made huge breakthroughs in recent years, and we are likely to see a massive spate of automation in the coming decades bringing the necessity of the proletariat to an end.

The bigger question is whether the singularity will be owned by the capitalists (who will likely end up destroying the proletariat as waste) or the socialists.

In the former case, you will end up seeing society like that of gods, i.e, cybernetically, chemically, and genetically enhanced superpeople (but not overpeople) treating the rest of the population as pets, to be toyed around with for their amusement, not even value extraction.

In the latter case, fully-automated luxury gay space communism will no longer be just a meme.



This is why it's good that in the short-term, we are seeing the weakening of Western Capitalist power.

For the people on the Left, we have three realistic victory scenarios in a world where advanced drones make proletarian revolt impossible.

First, socialist countries expand their economies and grow to the point where at the next major financial crisis (or perhaps the one after that), socialist capital will be the ones to do bailouts, and basically buy out capitalism at its weakest. This requires further economic development in the remaining socialist countries in the world, as well as attempts to flip up and coming developing countries (see India, although I don't see it as having revolutionary potential). This is not the utter collapse of capitalism foretold by Marx, but rather the exploitation of its periodic weakening by Marx's followers in the name of the proletariat.

Second, socialist countries, given how the United States is aiming to collapse all serious R&D efforts into itself, manage to collaborate and achieve the technological singularity, i.e, widespread employment of artificial intelligence and robotics, to obsolete the proletariat before the capitalists do.

In this case, by having literally created gods and angels first, and controlling the gods and angels first, capitalist states can no longer compete.

A third victory scenario is wherein AI becomes effective enough to allow the triumph of central planning over the free market; i.e, big data and artificial intelligence can now allocate resources more efficiently than the market. However, the problem with this is that the financial sectors in the West are more likely to beeline in this direction first, simply to make money by exploiting market inefficiencies, so it's an open question as to whether it'll be MarxAI or HayekAI that obsoletes capitalism first.


Why hasn't China developed an OGAS/Cybersyn analogue, anyway?


why do mods allow this retard to spam every single thread with his dogshit opinions?


File: 1707821074488.png (4.33 MB, 2262x2673, 5trd.png)

There is no 'Chinese system.' It's just a capitalist state with an authoritarian, union-busting government that can implement things faster. People mistake China as having a separate system only because it is in transition from a planned economy to a market economy. Singapore, Dubai and such governments has similar if not more efficiency.


I mean if that’s the case then why has the CPC been working towards actively undermine the interests of capital by expanding the percentage of SOEs within the economy and also organising purges of capital strongholds within China itself and activelly attempting to de commodify the housing market, like these actions don’t exactly sound like one’s a pro capitalist government would make in my opinion.


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Tick tock Taiwan (province of China) HAHHAHAHHAHAHHA


>It's just a capitalist state

It's not, CPC, a communist party, is in charge


It's actually "strikebreaker-busting". Trade unions in opposition to the All-China Federation of Trade Unions are strikebreakers, and are regarded as similar by the workers on the factories where such attempts at "unionizing" were tried

>can implement things faster

More like "can implement" period. Because socialism can into the future while capitalism is a thing of the past

>transition from a planned economy to a market economy.

Except planned economy never went away and never was replaced by the market. Market grew, sure, but we aren't talking about a REPLACEMENT here, we are talking about both sides growing

>Singapore, Dubai and such governments

Literal city states aren't real countries. Besides, they don't have a real economy, all their shtick are huge trade, toll and offshore profits which they then invest somewhere else i.e. they are parasites off someone else's - in case of Singapore, China's - labor


Oh, you see, it was done because Xi fears competition, so he murdered all those virtuous moneyhavers in cold blood to avoid them voting him out in a glorious democratic coup


Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is the most advanced mode of production


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>I mean if that’s the case then why has the CPC been working towards actively undermine the interests of capital by expanding the percentage of SOEs
Fascist economics. Look up economics of Italy and Germany during fascist years with high number of market based SOE's. Also housing is still commodified btw recently they removed all restrictions to get the hosing booming again


Honestly, too many glowies here for me to feel happy. And not in a mood to fight.


Don't worr. We've already won. The glowies have nothing left


yes, the site is basically unusable right now


File: 1707829305535.gif (359.28 KB, 498x278, 3twe.gif)

Its not a personal attack anon. I am just criticizing everyone for falsely claiming China is socialist. Nothing against you in particular. Cheer up !


>was suspected of driving crazily
lmao that's too polite. Retard was literally mashing into cars.

Despite all the ebin western memes about China being a police state with brutal state police homing into your balls whenever you post Winnie the Pooh, in reality the Chinese police officers, more often than not, have patience of saints.
You can find tons of videos of drunken/road rage psychos, dual wielding fucking cleavers, getting yelled and and judo tackled or in some cases subdued with police man-catchers for offenses that would leave them with bullet holes in the good ol' Land of the Free.


You have made no criticism. You have only falsely claimed that China is not socialist. You are wrong of course. China is Communist. Read these books to educate yourself and stop acting a fool. Now you have no excuse for being a renegade.


the guy has a repository of news articles to support his anti-china narratives, do you think he is interested in any serious discussion?


They do not support his sinophobic narrative. If you actually read them, then you will come to find that each article only demonstrates Communist China's long and hard history of labor law enforcement.


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A city of 3 million people in a strategic shipping location. Shenzhen alone has 12 million people and it mogs it in every metric. Same with literally every other Chinese T1 and T2 city. Singapore is basically a laundering registration zone of Chinese firms, like ByteDance and Mihoyo. Also it's kinda going down the drain lately.


Is a fucking meme brother why would you even bring this amusement park into equation? They rely on legal slave labor from India/Pakistan. Not the meme kind either. Actual slave contracts with subhuman living conditions and discrimination. No safety regulation either. All for retarded vanity projects, made to attract """influencers""" and boos tourism.



doesn't surprise me, but the point is that he is here to troll and sabotage discussions
I would say to just ignore him and wait until he gets bored, but apparently he has been doing this for years (probably a neet) so


I just want to, despite my heterodox views, expand my understanding of Chinese Marxism and how it's different from Soviet and Western Marxisms. More importantly, I want to understand why Chinese Marxism is so close to succeeding, which is something the Western Liberal / Conservative community will never tell you.

These dumb, doctrinal fights (FYI: the CPC prizes AI and automation very heavily as a core technology; there is heavy investment into AI technology by the Chinese tech sector, and the robot intensity in China is, I believe, only behind South Korea's) are ruining my mood and keeping me away from understanding.


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The danger of satire is that the people you are criticizing will often mistake it for agreement, even going so far as adopting the satirical version for themselves as a genuine position.



The US military has psychological warfare ops that are authorized to work in any country outside the United States, and if they are not, they can simply pass the work off to Five Eyes.

Don't be surprised if they have fairly sophisticated trolling operations; China isn't the only country that has a 50 cent brigade.


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I don't get it that video. Are ultras seething because they're actual retards?


As for anti-China troll #2938:

Socialism is an ambiguous definition; China strictly speaking is NOT socialist, but socialist with Chinese characteristics.

That is relevant to the Communist Party definition of socialism, where the government controls all means of production, although there's obviously other definitions of socialism.

The deviation from the standard Communist definition is that the Chinese government allows a large private sector to exist, but the SOEs (which are typically only majority owned by government entities, or even minority owned) have privileged access to credit and control the commanding heights of the economy.

This is how China defines its own economy as "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics". Socialism at large is an extremely ambiguous term, such that we can spend weeks arguing on whether Communist Socialism is actually socialism, or whether even the tiniest bit of state ownership is socialism (as claimed by the American mainstream-right).

Please ban "wat iz socialism" trolls from China threads. We know specifically what the Chinese economic system is; it's a mixed economy with the state controlling the commanding heights (finance, banks, utilities, etc) with requirements for Party supervision in any appreciably large firm (about 8% of the population of China are Party members).


Its not any newspaper. Its CPC state media.



>SOEs are Fascist.

Umm what have you been smoking Jesus christ on a pogo stick like how are SOEs Fascist, like are you going to say the USSR was Fascist for having like the entire economy be SOEs, and in anycase Italy and Germany during the 1930s didn't have SOEs they had more or less independant corporations that actively colaborated with Fascist elements in order to put down revolutionary movements (like hell in Nazi germany the goverment actively privatized industries that had formerly been publically owned by the former german Weimar goverment, and no these are not "SOEs" as they where not owned by the german goverment but by private indivduals unlike Chinese SOEs which are actively owned and managed by the CPC cadres and members and have grown in total amount from 2019 where it was about 31% of the economy to now making up about 48.4% of the chinese economy by the end of 2023,while in comparison private and mix industries have fallen from 54.4% in December 2020 to 39% by Jun 2023 with mixed enterprises also declining from 13% in december 2020 to 12.6 percent by Jun 2023 )

>B-But muh china has removed all purchasing restrictions.

Again your misrepresenting the article your quoting from and in anycase this policy has only been implemented in certain cities they only "Lessen" restrictions not remove them outright (like seriously the only case i could find of restrictions being "Waived" was in Suzhou and even then it was mostly done to encourage first time buyers to enter the property market, this can also been seen as the CPC, which controls much of the banking infrasturcture of China btw, has lessened morgage rates for first time home buyers likely in an attempt to encourage more people to enter the housing market rather than consolodate it under several mega corporations like we saw happen within the US with Blackrock and other housing firms)

Basically what i am trying to say with these facts is that the CPC is still actively trying to undermine the influence of capital and one way of doing that is to encourage first time home owners to enter the housing market and buy up as many homes as possible (this is also why certain cities like Zhengzhen for instance have started to give economic incentives to familes to buy larger homes and sell there first homes to those entering the housing market and also tax insentives to those who buy a new home and sell there old one within a year) this combined with the fact that chinese SOEs have only been growning since 2020 seems to suggest that the CPC has deemed capital to be more of a hinderence then a benefit to china.






NTA and I ask this in good faith: who said that Socialism needs the communist mode of production to be categorized as such? There's no such thing as a "socialist" mode of production and, as far as we know, Socialism is a transitory state in which exists many of Capitalism's contradictions, including private property, degrees of free market, and socially reactionary tendencies.
What is the argument from orthodox marxists against this?


File: 1707836118758.jpg (31.58 KB, 789x725, 1696975624956.jpg)

>There is no 'Chinese system.' It's just [describes a system]


Unironically, many simply say "because Marx said so". There's a guy on tiktok who's balls deep into being an ultra leftist. He also responds and everything if you want to ask him stuff. It's pretty retarded antirevolutionary idealist nonsense, but idk, it's kind of appealing or alluring because it makes this promise of being the Purest Form Of Marxism or whatever.


To begin with, do Chinese SOEs "trade" with eachoter their products (markup price, profit-oriented) or do they exchange zero-sum (priced allocation within the same hand)?

If the latter, ofc their GDP "output" would be way lower.


I'm guessing it's the former just to keep the economy simple


That'd be lame. Still, inter-SOE economic behaviour is an interesting topic. I wonder if there are any resources on this.


As of now, yes, but watch as my special socialism with armchair characteristics gets implemented any minute now


The ideological issue inherent to China's approach often goes unacknowledged. In that, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat as manifested in the Communist Party is forced to act as policeman for capitalism's contradictions.

Where before in traditional Marxism believe capitalism set the stage for its own dissolution via the intensification of contradictions. Now in China, the Communist Party steps in and saves capitalism from itself. This includes global capitalism. This thread often applauds when China executes a corrupt CEO or brings down the hammer on the side of workers. But never stops to consider its a dangerous balance at play.

China's attempting an old dream, and one it is doing with tangible success. However, I remain skeptical capitalism can ever be controlled the way China hopes. Either the Communist Party will forever be reduced to "keeping the peace" or be forced into a confrontation with capital or even Chinese labor.


>I'm skeptical because […] forever.
My child



Yeah i do have to agree that at this time the CPC seems to be trying to to get the benefits of both capitalisim (Extreme levels of Effeciency and Productivity) and Socialisim (Greatly expanded levels of protection for the working class) now can this succeed, i don't know will have to see but basically at the moment the CPC is most likely intending to try and syncronise both Capitalisim and Socialisim together without the weaknesses of either system, which well who knows how that will work out tbh.


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>they had more or less independant corporations that actively colaborated with Fascist elements
Chinese SOE's are also corporations now after the reforms. Read the global times article I posted earlier. They are just corporations with party members now.

>Basically what i am trying to say with these facts is that the CPC is still actively trying to undermine the influence of capital

Then why did he they join RCEP recently ? Why did they lessen the negatives list ? Why are they allowing more and more wholly owned subsidiaries ? Why did they set up new SEZ in Xinjiang ? Why are they collaborating with world bank, WTO and doing the reforms that they suggest ? Many questions. Answer is obvious. But you dont want to admit it. China is a state in transition to capitalism just like the post soviet countries. The only difference being they are doing reforms at slower pace. But you all dont want to admit it.


>which well who knows how that will work out tbh
Anybody familiar with the history of social democracy knows how it will work out. Eventually the tendency of the rate of profit to fall will cause a crisis that will make the current model unsustainable, and they will be forced to either turn towards privatization, financialization, and imperialism, or turn towards socialism. This could be decades from now so its not possible to say what the balance of power in Chinese politics will be then, and thus how they will react to this situation.



Except that given China's very low level of development relative to the West (roughly 1/3rd or 1/2th, depending on how you count, of Western Europe, and 1/7th to 1/4th of the United States) it will take a long time before falling rate of profit kicks in.


In the classic Soviet-style socialist system, capital DOES exist and CONTINUES to exist, but only in the form of the State monopoly.

As long as the Chinese state continues to own the SOEs, it is a facsimile of classic Mao / Stalin socialism.

I would actually prefer that they divest and try to move to a finance model similar to the West, except that instead of private investors owning the financial high ground, it's the Party that controls the markets and the VCs, and with many essentially "private" firms having greater state ownership (i.e, BAT three kingdoms has 5-10% Chinese ownership).

But since the SOEs are key to recruitment and training within the Communist Party of China, it's dangerous to reduce the size of the raw SOE sector and limit the SOE presence to the banking and finance sectors.


I'm honestly shocked no one gives a damn about Haier's Rendanheyi model. It's literally a mixed economy under central planning as a microcosm within a single SOE.

Business groups, ranging in size from 5 to 500, are created and organized by the workers themselves, which then generate for themselves some kind of value-adding proposition. The workers get a sort of UBI simply for working for Haier, but are allowed to self-organize, to use the company metrics for determining added-value, and pay themselves bonuses from their added-value respectively.

The businesses within the system then network; some of them are directly customer-facing (sell directly to customers), others face other business units within the system (i.e, accounting, HR, etc), and provide services and design to customer-facing organs.

However, the design of business unit interaction, like, how they're agglomerated together, how they cooperate, etc, is facilitated by the company's management design staff, i.e, the senior leadership.

Scaled up to the size of a society, it's an interesting alternative to traditional socialism and capitalism; the ownership at the end of the day is by the state, but workers are allowed to self-organize and negotiate for the surplus value of their firms.


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u basically described yugo workers self management



Except in Haier's case, it helped them bring GE Appliances from being a shit-tier part of an ailing Western company to the fastest growing white goods firm in the United States.

The point is that the workers have to have an entrepreneurial start-up mentality, i.e, it's a cross between planned economy, workers co-ops, and start-up-land.

It's the micro-business units that are supposed to be constantly forming and dissolving to seek new business opportunities and potentials for profits.

This has helped Haier become one of the most innovative companies in the world, being one of the leaders in Internet-of-Things (networked appliances) with interesting products like digital delivery of groceries, precooked meals, and so on.

They were, in fact, one of the first to pivot to the mask business during COVID-19, as their microenterprises quickly found out that they should dissolve some units and build mask building units ASAP.

Whereas yugo-worker self-management is only understood in Marxist literature, Haier's Rendanheyi system is featured in Harvard Business Review, i.e, the porkies think it's the future.



The main drawback is that there is a demand for absurd labor discipline (i.e, lots of commitment, lots of hours).

However, if you think of all the volunteers who jump into start-up land, do you think those workers are being exploited? They signed up for it, knowing that they'll work 72-hour weeks for the vague hope of getting stock options in a unicorn that'll make them millionaires.

And in the Haier implementation, you still get base pay, which gives you a safety net if your microenterprise goes tits up.

There's a reason porkie goes gaga for this model. And in a very Maoist sense, this completely obliterates middle management and bureaucracy; it's just the architects and system designers in senior management, and the microenterprise workers and leaders at the bottom.



Thank you (and the other anons too) for the polite and straghtforward answer(s).
>Where before in traditional Marxism believe capitalism set the stage for its own dissolution via the intensification of contradictions.
It was my interpretation that Marx meant capitalism as a global system instead of limited to an economic bloc (correct me if I'm wrong). I thought China's current limitation in socialist progress was its dependence on the global market and military threat of the imperialist core, both which are outside of the CPC's hands unless they start exporting revolutions, which I'm sure they have their reasons to not do it. What do you think?


>Then why did he they join RCEP recently

To join more markets and to dominate them, too

>Why did they lessen the negatives list

No idea what you mean

>Why are they allowing more and more wholly owned subsidiaries

Because who cares? Chinese industries are outcompeting foreigners both at home and abroad. If this tricks Westoids into signing more trade treaties it's an absolute win

>Why did they set up new SEZ in Xinjiang

Because they are focusing on developing Xinjiang, which was sanctioned? Having trade deals through SEZ would allow to circumvent sanctions

>Why are they collaborating with world bank, WTO and doing the reforms that they suggest

They are not doing the suggested reforms. They comply with certain regulations, that's all


uygha… what the fuck are you talking about


lmao, why are they randomly injecting Putin into this. Is their China-specific atrocity propaganda not sticking anymore?


What China has is clearly a NEP analogue that is used to build productive forces; I don't know how they do not see this.


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>China strictly speaking is NOT socialist, but socialist with Chinese characteristics.
WRONG. Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is the primary stage of socialism, which is the primary stage of communism.


>British colonial symbols with Nazi aesthetics
The Hong Kong "revolutionaries" just couldn't help themselves, could they?


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>Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is the primary stage of socialism, which is the primary stage of communism.
and there goes the communism


>misinterpreting God-Emperor Xi
You will get the wall.


I misinterpret no one. What I've stated is fact. Read Deng.
< Socialism itself is the first stage of communism, and here in China we are still in the primary stage of socialism — that is, the underdeveloped stage. In everything we do we must proceed from this reality, and all planning must be consistent with it.


empty words to fool party members


cope words to fool yourself



Find the original text. I spent 30 minutes looking for the source, but I couldn't find it.



Anyways, I’ve taken up reading “求是”, seeking truth, from Mao’s dictum to “实事求是” seek truth from facts.

You should make it a habit too. Chicoms, in my experience, are actually quite reasonable people, as they would not have gotten far without being such.


stopped reading. come back when you're old enough to consent.


They've been seething at China for not sanctioning Russia since 2014.
Coincidentally enough they didn't dare say shit to India because they still think they can woo them.



Actually, rereading Xi, he's stating that Sinified Socialism is only the incipient point of socialism, which is the incipient point of communism.

Honestly, has anyone considered rebranding ourselves as Eudaimonics? Western and porky interests have spent more than a century ruining our brand image. We might as well look for a rename to avoid the bad associations they've created with our brand.


>commodity production le bad

Besides, Xi talks about war communism of Lenin, which was also full planned economy. You don't want a return to war communism, because it's not a good place or time to be in


I want a return to the planned economy


wtf is up with these boomer facebook tier anti-deng memes?


Planned economy will happen in the future as a result of having to put more efficiency into the increasingly automated production. China didn't privatize it's SOEs and plans them heavily to this day - because those are heavy industry and have less "moving parts", so to say.


Thank you botox Karen. Very cool.


Why are Canadians so uppity? Do they really think being a vassal state puts them on the same level as the US kek


Something is established for no time, something isn't absolute and sacred.


what's happening here?


Wrong. Planned economy will occur once AI is advanced enough to solve the socialist calculation problem.

China is already one of the most AI-friendly societies out there. Replacement of human bureaucrats, prone to corruption, with quasi-infallible machines will be a big step forward in the proper functioning of socialism.


The calculation problem isn't real idiot, just a buzzword term libertarians use to try and sound smart


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>What was the‌‌‌‌‍‬‬‍ ultimate significance of socialist construction within the Soviet ‌‌‌‌‍‬‬Union and China? Was it bureaucratic central state planning? No. Bureaucratic central state planning was already a material reality ‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‬of imperialism, it was certainly a reality of the post-war Bretton Woods American globalist economy. That is not what distinguished Soviet socialism, that is certainly not what distinguished Chinese socialism. What distinguished Soviet socialism was the Kolkhoz,‌‌‌‌‍‌‬ it was a sphere of economy outside of ‌‌‌‌‍‬‌‍state socialism. Same with China: the people’s commune was also outside of‌‌‌‌‍‌‬ central ‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‍state socialism, and by central state socialisms I mean not proceeding according to a central plan, it was an economic unit that‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‌ formed not according to a central plan, but according to ‌‌‌‌‌‬‌‌the‌‌‌‌‍‬‌ immediate necessities of economic life, therein allowing the breathing room and the space for economic laws ‌‌‌‌‍‬to assert themselves independently of the voluntary control of the central state. And somehow, that was still socialist. ‌‌‌‌‍‬‍Somehow when Stalin and Mao acted as ‌‌‌‌‍‬‍libertarians the economy was still socialist. When they allowed the‌‌‌‌‍‍‍ state to be hands off‌‌‌‌‍‬‬ in some sphere, the Kolkhoz or the people's‌‌‌‌‍‬‬‍ commune, it was still socialist. Why was it socialist? Because of the relation between these units 28 and‌‌‌‌‍‍‌ the central state plan. The relation being one of exchange, ‌‌‌‌‍‬‍which at the same time‌‌‌‌‌‬‌‌ produced‌‌‌‌‍‌ a surplus‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‍ product that was economized in a social way. The surplus product of the relation or of production in general was economized in ‌‌‌‌‍‌‬a social way economically, ‌‌‌‌‍‍‬not because of a political plan. This speaks ‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‍to the reality of a socialist mode of production that is not reducible to political planning. Even if it involves political planning, it’s not ‌‌‌‌‍‌‬reducible to it.‌‌‌‌‌‬‌‌ Deng Xiaoping’s greatness lied in his ability to unleash that reality of the socialist‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌ economy. So the problem of Communism ‌‌‌‌‍‍‌or the problem of communication‌‌‌‌‌‬‌‌ is resolved only in the acknowledgment ‌‌‌‌‍‬‬‌of a third element or a third point of reference‌‌‌‌‍‍‌ between the relationship of the central socialist state and ‌‌‌‌‍‍‌the socialist economic units of society. That third element being a material ‌‌‌‌‍‌‌reality of the socius.‌‌‌‌‍‌ Because in the relationship between the central socialist state and the socialist civil society, there'‌‌‌‌‌‬‬s an accidental byproduct ‌‌‌‌‌‬- there’s an inadvertent consequence of the central plan. That inadvertent consequence cannot transparently ‌‌‌‌‌‬reflect the initial aims or inputs of socialist production. There’s ‌‌‌‌‍‬‬‍an inadvertent result. The only way in which this inadvertent result can acquire rationality, and by‌‌‌‌‍‬‬ rationality I just mean‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‬ consistency as part of some coherent rational‌‌‌‌‍‌‬ reality, ‌‌‌‌‍‬‌‍not just some chaotic meaningless one, is insofar as it is recognized that the object of production, the actual site of the ‌‌‌‌‍‌‬socialist economy‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‍, is beyond the threshold - beyond the ‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‌scope of direct planning, yet still socialistic. This, my friends, is the meaning of the socialist accelerationism. Accelerate the forces‌‌‌‌‌‬‬ of production‌‌‌‌‍‬‍ like a ruthless ‌‌‌‌‍‬‍libertarian capitalist, but actually that mode of production is already‌‌‌‌‌‬ socialist,‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‌ so by accelerating it you‌‌‌‌‍‬‬‍’re just accelerating‌‌‌‌‍‌ the development of socialism. ‌‌‌‌‍‬‌That’s what it means for socialism to be material and that’s what it means for socialist construction to occur at a level beyond modern time.‌‌‌‌‍‬‌‌‌‌‍‌‬‌‌‌‌‍‬‍‌


>Planned economy will occur once AI is advanced enough to solve the socialist calculation problem.

pffft ahahaha. Imagine living in 2k24 and still talk about calculation problem. Grow the fuck up


the average smartphone has more than enough computing power to plan a typical national economy


yeah, it all boils down to the ability of planning committees to enforce the plan onto the economy. If they can only recommend, but have no way to enforce the plan, this is just going to be an organization that does nothing but produces signed papers - barely any better than typical bourgeois ministry of the economy


> We have not seen capitalism collapse to the point where a revolution occurs.
For the love of christ anon open a fucking book



Is it socialism when you swallow hook, fishing line and rod anons?


Bite the bait to increase post production nerd


Simple principal-agent problem. Mao fought the bureaucracy at the end, seeing it as responsible for the disaster of GLF.

With a fully-centralized and planned economy, it’s a cybernetics problem; information constantly is generated by all parts of the economy, and has to be passed up and down the system. With human actors, this provides tremendous friction and inefficiency, and the data has to be analyzed at all stages, resulting in horrific waste.

With artificial intelligence and machine learning, on the other hand, information control and handling can be dealt with in a sophisticated way by fully objective software entities at a speed and efficiency humans can’t match.


If you want a planned economy that works, you MUST have an AI component for data analysis and management.

Honestly, can you imagine the reams of paperwork within a planned economy, as various entities make requests for intake and receipt for resources? What happens if the requirement for goods increases or decreases? 99% of the people advocating for a planned economy have no idea of the brutal logistics required to even attempt to make it work.


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>disaster of GLF.

Oh no, westoid observers have declared Great Leap Forward a disaster! I bet you also have some stastistics comparing it to Japan or some shit, memes about backyard furnaces and 4 parasites or whatever. Imagine replacing actual historical knowledge with Nazi-tier propaganda, smh


>Honestly, can you imagine the reams of paperwork within a planned economy, as various entities make requests for intake and receipt for resources?

Oh, you mean that market entities don't do that and instead just shake hands? Wow that's some in depth understanding of economics from you! I bet you also don't realize that market entities instead of banding together have a habit of shadowing each other and creating so much redundant shit that could have been replaced by a centralized organization - just because they are private and are competitors to each other. Hell, where in China there's the central planning to coordinate production of quotas for different companies, under capitalism in USA and elsewhere companies instead each have dedicated departments for talking to other companies and coordinating with each other. JUST IMAGINE THE AMOUNT OF PAPERWORK AND EXTRA NONSENSE THIS ENTAILS. Simply enforcing central planning onto those companies would cut management positions in the entire economy by like half, capitalism is EXTREMELY inefficient


Ask Deng, or even Mao. This was a colossal clusterfuck as the bureaucratic system of the command economy could not obtain valid information from the grassroots and made severe misallocations of resources. Population drops implies that 1-2% of the population died due to famine, 5% by porky figures.


As far as the market economy goes; these are lateral agents communicating with each other.

The entire problem with fully-planned economies is that economies of scale eventually hit both diminishing and negative returns. The cybernetic cost of centralized command and control at sufficient scale means you see massive inefficiency due to data processing requirements.

Hell, it’s not even Maoist, or classically Maoist. Mao’s organizational preferences during the heyday of the 8th Route Army emphasized decentralization and devolving decision-making to the bottom-level, which is antithetical to a command economy.

It’s only when you get into AI and Big Data that coordination difficulties between the center and various units of the economy can possibly be surmounted; planning at the level of a commune can be reasonably efficient and effective, at the level of a country there is too much difficulty in obtaining and processing information quickly and accurately.


As a capitalist example, Target can, using Big Data, know when you are pregnant and advertise the appropriate goods for each stage of your pregnancy.

In a command economy, you would have to file paperwork to let resource allocators know you are pregnant and need more food, that certain prenatal care should be available, as well as inform them should you have a miscarriage. Someone has to make sure the paperwork is available, and read your paperwork and make judgments on it.

In a command economy backed by AI, the state will know you are pregnant likely before you do, allocations and shifts in your workflow will be made automatically, and unfortunate circumstances will be detected automatically.

In order of efficiency; AI command beats market beats traditional command economy.


>Population drops implies that 1-2% of the population died due to famine, 5% by porky figures.

Dude, population drop was due to statistics getting collected properly. Ghost migrant and other populations got accounted for, and that's about it

>command economy could not obtain valid information from the grassroots and made severe misallocations of resources

You are an idiot and don't understand what's so planned about the planned economy. Suffice it to say that 60% of the proofs that planned economy misallocates resources is that porkies' would rather invest into something else, and the rest is the lies about backyard furnaces - the very fucking obvious case of encouraging peasants to smelt their own tableware and hoes while focusing city production on producing industrial grade steel for the, well, industries. GROSS MISALLOCATION OF RESOURCES WOULD BE WASTING INDUSTRIAL GRADE STEEL ON TABLEWARE, AND PLANNED ECONOMY INSTEAD MADE THE CORRECT JUDGEMENT OF ENCOURAGING BACKYARD FURNACES.

But instead we get idiotic retarded ideas about Chinese making peasants produce industrial grade steel in their backyards and predictably failing. Those stupid commies amirite????


My mother and father lived through the famine. Shut the fuck up.


Ok but did you consider that they're revisionist traitors?


Oh, so did they die from starvation?

Sorry, but retarded nosense about millions dying is a retarded nonsense. Famine, post-war destruction and recovery, industrialization caused population moving around, and that's what really affected the statistic.

NOBODY EVER have shown us any corpses of Mao's famine, but we have gazillion more photos of Indian famines despite the fact that Indian famine supposedly killed like 3 times less people (as it is claimed).

Oh wow, you have relatives who have seen a famine! So fucking do I, and I asked them about the famine and NOBODY TOLD ME ANYTHING ABOUT SEEING MASS DEATHS AND STARVATION. Oh sure, they talked about having less to eat, about hard times, but massive death toll? Nope. I heard more about people getting repressed and put into gulags for stealing grain, but NOTHING ABOUT DEATHS.


Of the party members in my family, many were those that the Party betrayed, but none were those who betrayed the Party.

You are just RPing as a communist. Shut the fuck up, or go back to your DnD games at Meade, glowie.


Man I was kidding chill



Mao’s famous dictum is to seek truth from facts. The Party itself considers Mao 30% wrong.

And when mistakes are made, workers and cadres are expected to conduct self-criticism. If you were ever compelled to make sincere self-criticism of your dogmatist mistakes, I swear you’d be waving the red, white, and black with a swastika in the center before I could even say the word “naive” or “glowie”.

Yes, the death figures supported in the West are likely overestimates. But to deny that millions starved to death in what was then a country of about 650 million people is only the act of a provocateur trying to separate the Chinese from Communism. People remember.


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>People remember.

Yeah, they remember that Mao's famine is a Westoid propaganda. Post fucking photos of Mao's famine. There's less proofs to it than to Holodomor ffs, and even there all the photos don't actually show 100% without shred of a doubt corpses despite the claims of mass starvation. Meanwhile, a photo from India. And it is claimed that Indian famine killed two or three times less people!

inb4 a retarded argument that either commies were so backwards that didn't have photos invented yet OR that commies shot anybody who tried to photo massive piles of dead people


> fully objective software entities at a speed and efficiency humans can’t match.
Dude you're just puking marketing nonsense here. ML is nowhere near as deterministic and objective in it's output as techbros would like to belive, it's only suitable for making estimations, not plans.
Source: I'm a programmer and I have worked with neural netwoks.


ah so my ai apocalypse dooming or utopia hopium was incorrect.
dissapointing but kinda glad.


Point isn’t that it’s ready now, but it’s a worthwhile avenue of research. Give it 20 years.

Also, point is that central planning and a command economy can’t work without major advances in AI and related technologies. At least on the porkie side, there is major research into the field as a way to derive profit from the markets.


In China itself the famine is acknowledged. The figures range from 3-25 million deaths. I don’t think even neo-Maoists deny it happened; they just acknowledge it as a mistake, and try to push the blame from Mao himself, with some evidence.

You’re basically importing Western habits of politics into somewhere that rejects yours. Millions of people died. The question is how many, and who’s to blame.


>In China itself the famine is acknowledged.
China is a social-imperial deranged worker's state that is restructuring itself for the global capitalist economy in lieu of reform and opening up. Only an anticommunist denies the Nixonite, the Fascistic Nixonite clique that rules in Peking. Of course they "admit" that some famine happened - because it discredites the eternal sunshine of the Maoist Red Sun!



A self-proclaimed Maoist in Australia discussing the famine. I’m trying to locate Mao’s own self-criticism on the GLF.

Honestly, I really can’t figure out what the hell you are. Are you Neo-Red Guards, I.e, deluded students? Or are you foreign agent provocateurs?

The GLF, even if it might not be fully considered a mistake, is a massive cock-up acknowledged in its own country and by its own perpetrators. Mistakes were made, millions of people died. Live with it.


>>1762282 实际上,国内一些的毛主义者和这个想法一样,他们激进的人甚至会否定现在是处于社会帝国主义,只是国家垄断资本主义。他们认为现在的资料一部分被邓修改了,旧时期当然有错误,但是这些错误现在变成了修正主义否定计划经济实现资本主义的遮羞布,它也被西方放大了很多倍用来攻击社会主义。


> 大萧条也造成了严重的社会问题:大萧条期间约有200—400万中学生中途辍学;许多人忍受不了生理和心理的痛苦而自杀;社会治安日益恶化。其中最重要的问题是失业。在美国,失业人口总数达到了830万,在美国各城市,排队领救济食品的穷人长达几个街区。英国则有500—700万人失业,不得不排着更长的队伍等候在劳务交易市场内。这次美国经济大萧条造成的灾难是人类历史上前所未有的。这次美国经济大萧条1930年~1933年爆发严重的经济危机,发生了遍及全美国的大饥荒和普遍营养不良,导致大量人口非正常死亡。最保守估计,至少有700万人死亡,约占当时美国的7%。美国30年代大萧条:千百万人必须像畜生一样才能活命。

In fact, some Maoists in the country share this idea. The more radical ones may even deny that we are currently in a stage of social imperialism, asserting instead that it is merely state monopoly capitalism. They believe that some of the information about the current situation has been altered by Deng Xiaoping. While acknowledging mistakes in the past era, they argue that these errors have now turned into a fig leaf for capitalist achievements through the denial of planned economy, labeled as revisionism. This narrative has been significantly amplified by the West to criticize socialism.

As for what is written in the encyclopedia here in China:

> The Great Depression also caused severe social problems: during the Great Depression, approximately 2 to 4 million middle and high school students dropped out midway; many people, unable to endure the physical and psychological pain, resorted to suicide; social order deteriorated. The most significant issue was unemployment. In the United States, the total number of unemployed reached 8.3 million, and in various cities across the United States, the line of poor people waiting for relief food stretched for several blocks. In the United Kingdom, 5 to 7 million people were unemployed, forced to wait in even longer queues within the labor exchange markets. The catastrophe caused by the Great Depression in the United States was unprecedented in human history. The severe economic crisis erupted during the Great Depression in the United States from 1930 to 1933, resulting in widespread famine and prevalent malnutrition throughout the country, leading to a large number of abnormal deaths. Conservatively estimated, at least 7 million people died, accounting for approximately 7% of the population at that time. The Great Depression in the United States in the 1930s: millions of people had to survive like animals to stay alive.



My own perspective is that the question of how many people China and the United States have starved to death has become a political propaganda, much like the war reports between Russia and Ukraine. News reports on the number of deaths during a pandemic? Generally, one's own country may downplay the figures, while geopolitically adversarial nations might attempt to report 'death tolls could be much higher than the government's official numbers.'


>Socialist construction is recognized to occur at a scale far beyond the threshold of individual consciousness, itself integrating the entire movement of the world economy, global market, and even Western capitalist system toward the rational conclusion of an entirely new mode of production. Socialism, when understood as the riddle of history solved and the true driving force of history, does not need to be imposed upon reality, only recognized.


Alexandre Kojeve, Introduction to the Reading of Hegel


>Fascistic Nixonite clique that rules in Peking
What other bad words can you add?


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oh whoops! :DDD unexpected and totally out of the blue lol wow who could've seen that one coming! not me! *writes another schizophrenic hit-piece about china's economy* 2 weeks until China collapses PLEASE ignore us collapsing instead



Not a good thing. In 20-30 years, Japan will be within China's sphere of influence and will be importing socialism from China.

In the short-term, any weakness in the RoC (especially the RoC, since it's the linchpin of American containment against China), the Republic of Korea, and Japan are beneficial to China, but in the long-term, this is China's backyard and strategically potent, but submissive, neighbors to China are helpful to it.


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>China’s massive property market is crumbling. Xi Jinping wants to revive socialist ideas about housing and put the state back in charge.

>Home prices across China are falling, developers have gone bust and people are doubting whether real estate will ever be a viable investment again. The meltdown is dragging down growth and spooking investors worldwide.

>Under the new strategy, the Communist Party would take over a larger share of the market, which for years has been dominated by the private sector. Underpinning it are two major programs, according to policy advisers involved in the discussions and recent government announcements.

>One involves the state buying up distressed private-market projects and converting them into homes that the government would rent out or, in some cases, sell. The other calls for the state itself to build more subsidized housing for low- and middle-income families.

>The goal, the policy advisers say, is to increase the share of housing built by the state for low-cost rental or sale under restricted conditions to at least 30% of China’s housing stock, from 5% or so today.

>The plans line up with Xi’s broader push in recent years to expand party control over the economy and rein in the private sector. That push has included regulatory crackdowns on technology firms such as Jack Ma-backed Ant Group and more investment in state-owned enterprises in preferred industries such as semiconductors.


>Xi is adamant that real estate, which for years propelled China’s growth and at one point made up around a quarter of gross domestic product, should no longer take on such an outsize role in the economy, the policy advisers say.

>In Xi’s view, too much credit moved into property speculation, adding risks to the financial system, widening the gap between the haves and the have-nots, and diverting resources from what Xi considers to be the “real economy”—sectors such as manufacturing and high-end technology that he sees as crucial for China in its competition with the U.S.

>In some ways, Xi’s plans would take China’s housing market back to its roots. Decades ago, in the Mao Zedong era, the party controlled the market, with most Chinese people living in homes provided by their party work units.

>In the late 1990s, when leaders started liberalizing the market, they initially envisioned a two-tiered system in which some people would buy privately developed properties, while others would live in state-subsidized housing.

>Over the following decades, however, private developers like China Evergrande expanded rapidly and increasingly dominated the market. Today, more than 90% of Chinese households own their own homes, compared with around 66% in the U.S.

>The shift to private ownership created enormous wealth in China. But the market’s explosive growth also sparked a debt-fueled bubble, priced many young families out of desirable housing, and dismayed Xi and other senior leaders who felt the country was straying too far from its socialist roots.

>With the market plunging into turmoil last year following a yearslong government campaign to rein in excess property investment, economists inside and outside China called on Beijing to take more assertive steps to restructure the sector.

>There are now millions of empty units across China and many buildings in need of financial support.

>In internal policy discussions, Vice Premier He, one of Xi’s most trusted lieutenants, argued that getting the state more involved would be a way for the government to absorb excess home supply, put a floor under falling prices and help protect banks from having to write down hundreds of billions of dollars of property loans if the market kept getting worse.

>Another selling point, according to the advisers: By converting more private properties to state-subsidized housing for rent or sale, it could help advance Xi’s oft-repeated “common prosperity” goal of making Chinese society more equal.




My interlocutor is denying that ANYONE died in the famine associated with the Great Leap Forward, which is clearly a foreign agitator angle.

My own surmise is somewhere between 14 million and 23 million; that not just Mao, but the entirety of the Party was to blame for the disaster, with some lower cadres being overenthusiastic with collectivization, middle cadres hiding the affair, and senior leadership having misplanned the affair in the first place.

It was a colossal mistake, that's all. Millions of people died.


It is a measure of profound tragedy that a bare minimum policy like "wow maybe the government should in fact crack down on financial property speculation and rentierism instead of letting capitalists make everyone homeless" is giving people so much hope because the Left has been receiving nothing but defeat upon defeat by Capital in the last 40 years


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Like a phoenix out of ash.
Really gets my Wood Dragon going if you know what I mean.


>“real economy”


Probably bolstered by Lai attempting to anchor a Taiwan-US military alliance, a mainland fishing boat was chased in Kinmen (island a short swim from Xiamen, literally), capsized and two of the fishermen were killed and the other two taken prisoner. Probably Lai did not intend to kill them and killed them by accident. But since it was a direct consequence of aggressive actions by the military, they are at fault.


There's now American military personnel on the Kinmen island too. It's no longer provocation. It's basically just pissing.
Cuckping won't do shit. Worse than Cucktin.


>>1762533 Oh, I'm not completely denying your argument.

Several years ago, a pandemic caused the deaths of millions in some regions, perhaps with populations not even comparable to China in the last century. As you mentioned, with a population of hundreds of millions, especially including children and the elderly, a massive famine combined with a healthcare system far less advanced than today could indeed result in a terrifying number of casualties.

However, this figure is likely to have been deliberately politicized by the current geopolitical and ideological conflicts. Some regions may have exaggerated it excessively, attempting to highlight the legitimacy of their own ideology. The systems and ideologies of these countries in the last century may not necessarily have handled the situation better than China. China is also attempting to minimize the impact of this issue because it would be detrimental to the international and domestic image of the Communist Party of China. Without sharp international conflicts, perhaps the self-criticism within the Communist Party would be even more severe than you mentioned.

Moreover, don't forget that the Great Leap Forward was a major socialist experiment with its own unique perspective. Although it did not achieve its goals and even messed up many things, its lessons can be learned by future socialist practices.

I choose to trust most people here beyond nationality and ethnicity, which is necessary for achieving socialist and left-wing unity. I will try to avoid relying excessively on my own nationalism to judge situations, and I won't deliberately categorize some people as foreign agitators to foster a more adversarial attitude.

I'm trying to place the original Chinese text behind the GPT translation, which might be more convenient for people here to read.








I may come off as extremely retarded to you guys, but this isn't bait, I'm not a fed or a glowie.

I'm diaspora Chinese and I have spent the majority of my life outside of China, whenever I go back I marvel at the achievements of my country and the benefits of socialism. Some of my relatives have gone from living in slum houses to apartment buildings, the area where I live in has developed an extremely accessible commercial centre.

I feel like the people in China have had a massive improvement in their standard of living.

I used to be a retarded nazi larper so this might seem fascist for some people, but I think China's traditional culture, practices and prosperity (since it has always been the economic centre of the world for centuries) is returning, and China is exiting the shadows of the century of humiliation.

However, whenever I check Mainland Chinese political circles, it is a shithole filled with anti-CCP people, jingri, race-traitors (people who larp as Japanese), weirdo anarchists, and western baizuo type liberals (whom the majority of them are, according to my experience, pedophiles).

I'm confused on why the CPC doesn't crack down on these vile people, they've basically completely abandoned any sense of belonging to their nation and hate being Chinese, I see them mock Chairman Mao and Mao Anying and it's vile.

Why is the Chinese internet like this?


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Its literally just Singapore model. The idea is to combine government rentals with deregulated private rentals. Nothing socialist about it. WSJ is saying its socialist idea to scare away investors.

>and the benefits of socialism
who is gonna tell him

Deng was a capitalist. He was using socialist retoric to fool conservative party members and do reforms lmao

>>1761129 see >>1762200 it was all empty words after all huh ?


Volkish class collaborationist "socialism" in one country lmao. Dengists are reaching their logical conclusion


If you don’t know anything about Chinese society and culture don’t fucking talk about it and definitely don’t do it if you’re just going to provide borderline racist caricature based on nothing but 1/10th assed psuedo analysis.


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>nooo you cant have revolution in the first worlddd if you criticize aess nooo stop criticizing plss nooo


>Mainland Chinese political circles
Like online? The only ones I know about are subreddits like china_irl and of course America-worshippers are gonna be self-hating colonial collaborationists. It's the same no matter the country like Venezuela, Cuba, Syria, Iran. All of their English speaking Internet class care for their own material interests over their country's.


Still waiting, maybe next century.


Go touch White House grass.


there's a couple chinese language servers on the 'cord, the simplified Chinese areas on twitter and this one server of this guy who explains Chinese politics on bilibili


What's borderline racist about what I said? The guy I was responding to is literally a traditionalist ethnonat lmao


>traditionalist ethnonat
And that's bad because…? Oh, it's because you're a racist.


So true, I'm just a crakkka a$$ settler who needs to do self crit for not realizing that magic asian genes make fascism cool


So true man I have the revolution button right here on my desk but I just forgot to press it


>magic asian genes make fascism cool
This but quite unironically.


mfs ITT would probably cheer on Nazi Germany because the USSR is the hecking redfash


>traditionalist ethnonat

silly crakkker I may be traditionalist but I am not a ethnonat I support full equality between the 56 ethnicities in China


so dengists are just a bunch of asian nationalists now ? okay lol


I simply would prefer to avoid dwelling on the Great Leap Forward. The only reason I brought it up is because posters here are endorsing a planned economy as superior to a hybrid economy with both planning and market mechanisms in use.

My stance is that a planned economy CAN be superior to a market economy or a mixed economy, but only with the development of new management practices and the advent of advanced computing technologies, like machine learning, GAI, and big data.

The high figures presented in the West reach 47 million or even higher. Lower figures from Chinese sources are only in the region of 4 million. I prefer to take median figures from Chinese Communist Party members (24 million), and skew down toward 15 million.

But I absolutely agree on politicization. The GLF is an example of how centralized planning can go absolutely awry, but the amount of damage will be exaggerated overseas and underplayed domestically.


Do u have assburger


I’d rather ascribe that to Falun Gong. I distinguish Chinese nationalism, the nationalism of the Chinese nation, from Han nationalism, the nationalism of the Han majority. Anti-CPC movements outside China try to play on Han nationalism—taking pride in Han achievements before Liberation in 1949.

True Chinese nationalism, in contrast, embraces the multi-ethnic nature of the Chinese state, is willing to criticize strongly elements of Han culture in the tradition of Lao She and Lu Xun, and celebrate the achievements of the Communist Party of China since 1949.



Han nationalism easily descends into Fascism, especially when among Diaspora, who often have a colonizer’s mentality, particularly in non-Western states where the early advent of the Industrious Revolution and Commercial Revolution give Diaspora tremendous advantages over peoples who have not experienced this transition.


>choosing one nationalism over other nationalism
modern leftoidism


Except that there is no better hope for socialism and communism than the People’s Republic of China. People still sing the old songs here, and the sincerity can be felt. If the sincerity goes, or the songs go, I will turn my back on China and the Chinese.


China hopefully wont bite obvious bait


>China is the best hope for socialism because vibes
The absolute state


Patchwork Chimera, purportedly a US defense analyst, posted on Reddit a few years ago that the PLAAF and PLARF have the ability, in a preemptive strike, to wipe out the American presence in East Asia.

That is to say; the People’s Liberation Army is strong enough to drive the Americans out of East Asia, and end capitalism in the East Asia region.

Westoids will immediately respond: well, if they can, why won’t they do it? Simply, because while the PLA can achieve the goal of eliminating the American presence in East Asia, they cannot win the peace. The level of civilian infrastructure destruction will be so great that the Chinese will be stuck spending decades on rebuilding infrastructure in East Asia, and the locals will know that their new political alignment is not the result of their own free will, but of millions of tons of Chinese munitions being dropped on their head.

That, and the ensuing sanctions, is why China does not pull the trigger on eradicating the American Imperialist presence in its near-abroad.

But if there is no other choice, or the prospect of destroying American military capabilities in the East Asia region becomes too tempting—twilight will fall upon the Gods.


Everything in the world begins with feeling. It’s extremely autistic to deny that all our motivations, all our wants and fears, do not spring from our emotions, deeply held and otherwise.

p -> q implies ~q -> ~p.

So what of it?

The uprising of the Proletariat will destroy Capitalism and bring the Bourgeoisie to heel. If Capitalism has not been destroyed, and the Bourgeoisie has not been brought to heel, there has not been an uprising of the Proletariat.

See how the injection of emotions transforms a previously sterile facileness into something that is vivid and alive?


First, there was feeling, then the Big Bang happened.



Or, in other words, the Americans simply move more troops and materiel, good and otherwise, into the Chinese kill zone. If the Americans move 6 carrier strike groups and 60% of their Air Force into East Asia, then they will lose 6 CSGs and 60% of their Air Force, and the American Empire will be finished. So what of a few American soldiers in Jinmen?


The idealism, holy shit


I guess I am being too subjective and idealist, no? The world exists first, then you. But of human beings, on a material basis, they exist first then perceive the world. We are not talking about pure scientific facts such as the origin of the universe, but of the psychological functioning of individuals, then of societies.


What do you think historical materialism means?


My little uigha, please show me on the world map where the other communist hope is, oh, and China is already in the primary stage of socialism.


What is a Marxist perspective on behavioral economics? Is the psychological functioning of individual human beings not a material fact?


Show me in Marx or Lenin where it says revolutionary movements should be evaluated on how enthusiastic they are or what aesthetics they have. You're a Sorelian.


What are you even talking about?


Idk if you're that anon or not but calling a movement or country socialism's best hope because of what songs they sing and how enthusiastic they are is aesthetics driven idealism.


Maybe I should go through Mao instead? I can simply quote Xi for faster results, but Xi is very late and unlikely to be considered as canonical.


Their point still stands, also NTA you're right.


Have you read Marx or did you skip straight to Xi lol


It’s more about starting with sincere motivation. Consider that it is possible to go through all the merely outward manifestations of classical Soviet socialism, but still not present the correct results.

As mentioned before, the Communist Party of China’s final evaluation of the Soviet Union is that they lost faith, not even knowledge, in Marxism, and thus their societies decayed and collapsed.


Only 6% of the Chinese economy is real estate, thats why he makes that distinction.


They didn't have a point beyond vibes, if you believe China is socialism's best hope then fine but make a case for that based on material analysis.


Manifesto, parts of Capital. In fact, there are many parts where I disagree, and I am happy that I do not need to be a dogmatist. We go back to Theses on Feuerbach, no?


>socialist projects succeed or fail because of faith and enthusiasm


Weird how everyone who complains about dogmatism ends up being some form of lib, nationalist or idealist


Are you denying American cultural imperialism getting weaponized in the 80s?


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Part of the reason why China going to war might not be in their interest is that the U.S., Japan and South Korea are their top export markets. The PLA Rocket Force could do heavy damage to the U.S. air bases bases in Okinawa and Guam and likely destroy many American ships stationed Yokosuka, but there's a good chance Japan would trigger a war clause and join the U.S., and their fleet is a lot bigger than many realize (bigger than France and the U.K. combined) and it's designed to be interoperable with the U.S. Navy with the technology and code language. The situation would look a lot worse for the U.S. if it was just the U.S. facing off with China.


> if you believe China is socialism's best hope then fine but make a case for that based on material analysis.
Communist China is more than "socialism's best hope." Communist China IS socialism. Read this materialist analysis of Socialism With Chinese Characteristics and stop saying nonsense.


I'm saying that material conditions are what determine the course of political projects, the most basic Marxist point you can make. I'm not a vulgar determinist either but you have people itt literally saying that ideas precede material conditions and judging countries based on songs, that's idealism by any sane metric.


Basically comes down to revolutionary potential in the developed world, which can be divided into how the capitalism of the now is not the capitalism of 1850, how Maslow’s hierarchy of needs means that in ridiculously affluent country, proletarian needs change, and how the Easterlin paradox changes the preferences of a people past a certain level of material wealth.

Then we have the fact that the Chinese economy, in PPP terms, has overtaken that of the leading capitalist country, and the present trend is a move left from the Dengist pseudo-rightist economy toward a more classical socialist economic structure.

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Classic Hegel.


Is the belief of people in certain ideologies a matter of material conditions? For example, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam still profess to be Marxist. In contrast, in the United States, socialism is a dirty word, and in Europe, the Left has been fighting a losing battle.

Is the content of people’s belief a material condition?


>Ctrl f ownership of the MoP
>Ctrl f wage labor
>Ctrl f commodity production
"They made life way better, developed productive forces and are powerful and sovereign" doesn't mean they're socialist. Saddam's Iraq had a greater percentage of public ownership (around 80%) than China does (about 60%) so you can't even use that. It's a bourgeois nationalist state and your politics isn't Marxism, it's idealist wanking about vibes and rooting for any bourgeois nationalists who fight the crakkkas


While the mind doesn't come first compared to matter, you have to agree that the mind commands matter to do it's bidding. A demoralized proletariat will give up and wear those blue jeans and listen to the rock and roll and sell themselves for crack cocaine to get enough food, it happened through sanctions first, yes, but the mind was also destroyed by capitalist lies.

I agree with their first point, but I don't agree that materialism comes second.


>Is the content of people’s belief a material condition?
Yes. What people believe constitutes a material condition.


Purity spiraling. I get it, theres purity in defeat, but the drive towards Communism lives on so it isn't perfect, get over it.


>Is the belief of people in certain ideologies a matter of material conditions?
YES. Read Marx, holy shit. If you're the guy who only read the Manifesto and "parts" of Capital (always gotta wonder how tiny those parts are) then read them again and throw in Principles of Communism too


>"They made life way better, developed productive forces and are powerful and sovereign" doesn't mean they're socialist. Saddam's Iraq had a greater percentage of public ownership (around 80%) than China does (about 60%) so you can't even use that. It's a bourgeois nationalist state and your politics isn't Marxism, it's idealist wanking about vibes and rooting for any bourgeois nationalists who fight the crakkkas
You are the idealist. You are utopian. You do not understand the historical and social necessity of Socialism With Chinese Characteristics. Read what I've sent you and stop crying.



This is what I mean by singing Red songs with sincerity; i.e, if you do so, you will become an embryonic Marxist, and these are the basic material conditions for the realization of Socialism and Communism in China.

If they stop singing Red songs with sincerity, then there is no more embryonic Marxism in China. If there is no embryonic Marxism in China, there is no longer a potential for a fully Marxist culture, and China is no longer Marxist.


I hope you can follow this logic?


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can't China just use their literal railgun and hypersonic missles to nuke Tokyo? Isn't that why the US military is panicking?


This is fortune cookie bullshit that doesn't mean anything beyond "the vibes are good and they have faith". You might as well be an unironic Jucheist


>can't China just use their literal railgun and hypersonic missles to nuke Tokyo?
China has a no-first-use policy regarding nuclear weapons.


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Porkies thinking China is capitalist and then getting executed will never not be hilarious.


not literally nuke but you get the idea.



China officially spends less than 300 billion, or 1.5% of their GDP, on military spending a year. The US in contrast spends about 3.5% of GDP on their military. Thus, there's huge potential for ramp-ups in Chinese military spending.

The JMSDF is merely a budgetary concern; lots of the JMSDF's assets are outdated, and the PLAN on its own has more VLS tubes than the ROKN and JMSDF combined.

Moreover, recall that East Asia is primarily a maritime and aerial theater. The PLAAF is already up to 200-300 J-20s, and is ramping up at around 120-200 units per year.

Basically, in a military build-up of both Chinese and Western assets in East Asia, it's the West that'll lose if the trigger is pulled.

The biggest deterrence to actual Chinese military action is the fact that the Chinese will be stuck picking up the pieces and dealing with restless locals angry at all the relatives the PLA killed, and the fact that China will be really heavily sanctioned if they opt for a military solution.

Moreover, even if Zhongnanhai elects to obliterate the US Navy and Air Force, alongside the militaries of American allies in East Asia, it will be a massive and rapid disruption in geopolitics.

What holds the BRICS and SCO together is fear of American power and imperialism. The Russians have no desire whatsoever of becoming a Chinese satellite; they just hate the notion of being an American vassal more. They will start to separate from Chinese alliances the moment the American threat goes down, and the Indians will move closer to the Americans if an East Asian war makes clear that China is a military threat.

So, even though the Chinese can "win" a war with the West in East Asia, that's only on military terms and they won't pull the trigger unless absolutely cornered.


Main problem is not equipment, you can scale up the production during the war more or less easily. Problem is always the pilots and specialists. To correctly gauge China's and USA's standing you need to look at their specialist production facilities, and I suspect that China has something like a 3-to-1 specialist advantage built into the current military build-up planning. USSR did a similar thing, but then a land war allows for the fascist scum to throw corpses at you and force you to trade ground for enemy losses. China is probably going to have an easier time, if war happens


Oh my God. The deterrence isn't sanctions or having to rebuild or whatever.

The deterrence for war are nukes/MAD and US being desperate enough to use them. No reason to discuss tactical and logistic minutia because an open war can't happen. Not even a proxy one with Japan since Japan falls under US nuclear umbrella as a treaty ally (singed in 1951).
Same with Korea since North Korea is a Chinese treaty ally.

100 nukes are enough to end the world by causing permanent damage to the atmosphere. And US-China have more than 100 nukes.



The trick is, China has No-First-Use and is thus capable of more aggressive actions than the United States is. The Chinese nuclear arsenal, delivered in part by hypersonics, is up to 500 warheads as per Pentagon estimates, and is expected to reach 1000 warheads by 2030.

Moreover, the US making clear that it will resort to nuclear war in the event of a Chinese military attack on regional allies is going to change the political calculus significantly.


The basic logic of East Asia goes like this. East Asia has a rising economic and military power that stands against the security guarantor of many other countries in East Asia. And economic linkages are more oriented toward China than it is to the United States.

The United States is coercing countries in East Asia to ramp up military spending and increase military forces, which mean higher tax rates, depressing economic growth.

In the event of war in East Asia, it will be the American allies that take the worst of it, because they'll be on the front lines and will be facing Chinese strategic bombing and rocket strikes, and given the scale of the Chinese military, this will likely be more devastating than the American strategic campaign against the Empire of Japan in the Second World War; i.e, even if the United States wins, the East Asian allies will lose.

In such a situation, what is the sane thing for the periphery countries to do? Perhaps they should try to go neutral, or even hop onto the Chinese side, since the Chinese have more strategic assets parked less than 2,000 km away, and the Americans have to power project from Anchorage, Guam, and Oahu?


End of the day, the Chinese orientation is toward achieving a diplomatic victory in East Asia, and the US making clear that they want to nuke first is more likely to push regional elites to opt out of the American security umbrella to avoid getting caught in the crossfire.


While nukes are serious weapons, I'm not sure nukes are that much of a deterrence in this scenario, we'd have to assume the U.S. is crazy enough to use them to defend Taiwan and I don't think that's the case.

The U.S. has some ideas to fight a war. One thing is that the ocean is really big (you have no idea how big it is) and the carrier groups can basically "hide" in the vastness of it. When you look at the coastline of Vietnam, keep in mind that is roughly the length of the west coast of the United States. Look at the Philippine Sea and look at China, it's like the same area where most of the Chinese population lives. It's big.

And the U.S. has the best submarine force in the world which might be the most important vessel in naval warfare nowadays.

There's also a lot of islands and the U.S. will try to lodge smaller groups of troops armed with long-range ground-based missiles. Japan tried a similar tactic during the Pacific War by lodging Japanese troops in all these islands, so the U.S. underwent an island-hopping campaign that went on for years. China is doing something similar in the South China Sea as well on reefs and artificial islands. The U.S. Marine Corps anyways has been practicing a lot on islands with ground-based missiles. But they also anticipate a war would involve heavy Chinese attacks on the main bases, so logically, the next move is to disperse forces across dozens of islands.



I'm seeing what's open source information on Ghost Shark and other Anduril devices, as well as publicly available information on Chinese UUVs.

It may take some time for UCAVs to displace manned fighters, but for UUVs, given China's still substantial inferiority in undersea warfare, it makes sense for the Chinese to go full-hog on underwater drones.

In which case, the USN's submarine superiority no longer matters, because both the Chinese and Americans are starting from scratch in with UUVs.


Submarine warfare is also the hardest thing to get information about because everyone is so secretive about it. That's one reason they call it the silent service.


>The deterrence for war are nukes/MAD

Yah, go on answer with nukes towards a bunch of random-ass retards raiding your coast on a boat. Or a spy plane, with Westoids using civilian aircraft as a cover for spying operations? Or border conflicts, or whatever other nonsense like Ukraine


>China's still substantial inferiority in undersea warfare

Uncharted undersea mountains say hi to American nuclear submarines


>other Anduril devices

urgh thanks I had managed to forget about this company's existence



We get some leaks, like Anduril bragging about their multi-mode UUV, or Chinese UUVs that get caught by Filipino fishermen.

The number we are really looking for would be how many UUVs, and whether UUVs are mature enough to replace manned submarines.

Remember, the Chinese control the civilian drone market, and have near-parity equivalents to American drones.

When I look at the Pentagon's Replicator initiative, I suspect the hidden implication is not that it's going to be a disruptive capability that the Chinese can't match, but merely a catch-up to the Chinese in drone manufacturing capability.


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That's the literal ring of fire. Not somewhere you want to garrison troops in the log term.


anon, a billion people live in the ring of fire


yes but gay nazi was talking about stationing troops in low coastal islands in anticipation of war. One tropical storm could costs millions


mmh yeah I guess so.



The CIA apparently dosed American military volunteers with lethal quantities of Sarin at the start of the Cold War.

If you think the American security establishment cares, in a full-scale strategic conflict, about the lives and well-being of their servicepeople, you are in for a rude awakening.

Do some OSINT on what it's like being in the American armed services. I have.


>even if the United States wins, the East Asian allies will lose
America has no allies. Just cannon fodder. They will fight the Russians until the very last Ukrainian. They will fight the Chinese until the very last Korean/Japanese/Filipino.

>we'd have to assume the U.S. is crazy enough to use them to defend Taiwan and I don't think that's the case.
US empire is going down the drain and empires are at their peak insanity in these moments.

Here's a basic scenario:
US makes the DPP declare independence and rewrite their constitution to be the "Republic of Taiwan".
China acts out with a blockade.
US sends sacrificial carrier strike group or two to attempt to break the blockade.
China sinks them as they approach.
US gets embarrassed and neocons launch nukes.
China launches nukes in the Second Strike through their nuclear triad.
Game over for everyone.

Like Deagel said, this is the first time in history where a sore loser can turn the loss into a draw. Thanks to nukes.

>the U.S. has the best submarine force in the world which might be the most important vessel in naval warfare nowadays

US facefucked an underwater mountain in South China Sea with their Seawolf the other year. They're not impressive at all.
Without air superiority, which enables ASW aircraft, they become the hunted ones. Besides, China has more Attack Submarines and they're all concentrated in their waters - meaning they have better odds to counter-attack the few deployed American subs in the area even without the ASW support (which they'll have anyway). No, submarines in peer competition are mostly strategic weapons. There for Second Strike capabilities.



Yeah, the two main disadvantages of diesel subs vs nuclear subs is that diesels are slow, and diesels have relatively poor endurance; they're closer to mobile mines.

We say that the USN has the world's most powerful submarine fleet, but that really applies to the fact that they've gotten around the deficits of nuclear submarines vs diesels, giving their subs phenomenal speed and endurance without sacrificing the stealth of diesel submarines.

Chinese diesel subs generally are very mature, and likely have better AIP technology than the Japanese, who are traditionally the leaders in diesel submarines.


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Its worth noting that the way western academic discourses on china have evolved particularly in the last five years, all presentations of Chinese culture are considered dangerous and automatically to be resisted and repressed. And notice the leftish rheotric used. By appropriating and erasing Chinese culture in the West, we are opposing "nationalism".

China cannot have ownership of its own culture– allowing this is to permit "cultural confidence" among Chinese. Only other cultures have actual historical lineage or traditions which belong to them. China cannot choose how its cultural icons are called or understood. The definitions of these terms must be dictated and circumscribed in a way that does not allow them to have any Chinese provenance.


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It's all a matter of relative strength, in the end. The Americans never got to where they were by picking fights they couldn't win; in every war since the War of 1812 the Americans started war against a far weaker power with less material and financial strength.

Even the Nazis, or the Imperial Germans, for that matter, didn't have a fraction of the economic strength of the Americans.

Anti-Chinese sentiment in the United States will run hot until it becomes obvious to the Americans that they cannot win the Second Cold War, and need to negotiate a modus vivendi, perhaps even a Community of Common Destiny a la Xi? ;)


loongdragon is loong


>The Americans never got to where they were by picking fights they couldn't win

Thats when they were a rising power themselves, sinking ships can't choose their docks, once hegemons can't choose their adversaries because time isn't on their side anymore.

I might add that late stage empires irrationally cling to the past, they always do. They wish for it to return no matter what, even if it means another World War. But it never works, they go all out one last time and enter the dustbin of history.


Loong Zedong


The possibility of DPRK continuation of reunification through military methods is also another factor, and whether India will play the role of the reactionaries' shock troops due to current political tendencies there. Perhaps Pakistan is the check on that possibility though and counterbalances that side.


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As Putin recently said: "You cannot defeat America in the propaganda war".

There is no such thing as Russian culture. It's actually all Ukrainian Kievan Rus. Muscovite Mongols just stole it.

There is no such thing as Chinese culture. It's only present on Taiwan since Communists destroyed it. Also Yin Yang is on the Korean flag, Conscious was Korean, Hanfu is actually stolen Hanbok and Japan invented everything else. China is just conquered Mongol land, like Russia.

Sounds insane? This is the mainstream narrative. It does not matter if most people know that it's bullshit, they will adopt it as truth just to deprave and insult the "enemy".

Japan and Korea are accepted since they're the subservient slave nations. So they are encouraged to appropriate cool Chinese culture as theirs. The gross stuff can be kept by China.


Kerala will rise up, maybe.


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>loongs aren't western dragons and are benevolent/auspicious
<this is nationalist nonsense!!1 A thread!!1

Reads like "nooooo orcs are supposed to be eeeeevil why are you thinking orcs are cool????"


>Even the Nazis, or the Imperial Germans, for that matter, didn't have a fraction of the economic strength of the Americans.

What nonsense.


I mean it's true though.


I'm sorry about your HOI4 campaign but Germany was a cucked nation after WW1


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Can Xigger press the button already Jesus Christ


The worst possible outcome of an American engagement in East Asia is that China will be crushed, but millions of Americans will die. America has the choice between destroying a hated rival and being terribly wounded themselves, or seeking a modus vivendi.

The Americans, at the end, are very rational people. Trump got elected based in part on lies and Russian interference, but the Democrat vision of society wasn’t working out given damage to the American white, cis, heterosexual working class, and that’s a substantial portion of the population.

As long as the Chinese keep themselves together, keep the economy growing, and stabilize the population, the American world system is finished. Can’t checkmate anymore.


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In terms of global wealth, the United States had 30%, Europe as a whole had 20%, and the Chinese have 20%.

When the Chinese have 30%, the Europeans are fed up with Trump and have gone neutral, all hell will break loose stateside if it remains an enemy state, because the greatest weakness of capitalists is capital. In the name of capital, the holiest value of Americans, they will sell out their own country, abandon military positions when dollars or crypto drop on their heads, even sell out their crown jewels for a sufficient quantity of Marxgold (remember that Marx was a Jew, after all).

When money is no longer on the side of the capitalists, that will be the end. This is what porkies and their security agencies have been trying so hard to prevent all along.


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>we will defeat capitalists by becoming capitalists like them


100 millionaires and billionaires who contribute to socialist construction and improvement of the lifestyles of the ordinary masses are more worth than 100 useless leftist cynics, and it should be mentioned that, contrary to the delusions of petty bourgeois declasseds leftoids, normal people don't spend much time on personalized resentment of billionaires, and neither should those who claim to be Marxists who think systems and follow class dictatorship politics, premised on real progress and not just infantile rejection of the reality world.


This thread has constant bangers (good and bad ones)


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>100 millionaires and billionaires who contribute to socialist construction
socialist construction ? what socialist construction ? where ?


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uygha still thinks we doin socialism up here get a load of this guy


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What's triggered the westoid now?



It is said that, just before the Sino-Soviet split, Nikita Khrushchev had a tense meeting with Zhou Enlai at which he told the latter that he now understood the problem. “I am the son of coal miners,” he said. “You are the descendant of feudal mandarins. We have nothing in common.” “Perhaps we do,” murmured his Chinese antagonist. “What?” blustered Khrushchev. “We are,” responded Zhou, “both traitors to our class.”


Put another way, nationalist / Red billionaires' cash is at best, borrowed from the people.

Xi Jinping HAS actively encouraged, with maybe a slight hint of threat, the billionaire class in China to start donating money to charity.

As long as the Party remains its primacy over the bourgeoisie, unlike in the Western capitalist democracies, the Party can seize the assets of the national bourgeoisie (the four smaller stars on the Chinese flag stand for peasantry, workers, petites bourgeoisie, and national bourgeoisie) at any time, as it has in the past.


You have to remember. In the modern world, money is capital. The Communist Party of China, has, under its supervision, 20% of the world's wealth. If it had 50% of the world's wealth, it could simply buy out capitalism and capitalism would collapse immediately.



*correction, not "money is capital", but "money is power".


That list counts presidents of SOE, dummy.


>You have to remember. In the modern world, money is capital. The Communist Party of China, has, under its supervision, 20% of the world's wealth. If it had 50% of the world's wealth, it could simply buy out capitalism and capitalism would collapse immediately.
Such scenario is not happening since India, ASEAN, Africa and other such centers of capitalism are developing fast. CPC has no such plans too. They openly said the have no plans to go back to a planned economy.


Not just them


70% of the Chinese economy is SOE.



There's no point in returning to a planned economy if the planned economy doesn't have the technical, organizational, and social technologies needed to make it actually work.

As for India / ASEAN / Africa, the problem really comes down to, most of the developing world looks more black (fascist) than red. How can we encourage them to have true revolutionary fervor without crashing their economies and getting mass pogroms?

The problem with being a communist in this day and age is that Chinese communism works. However, the communisms and socialisms of other countries do not work, and there's no real interest in modifying and exporting the Chinese development model.


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You keep saying China is communist. Is it tho ? Communist party is in power yes but so does Vietnam. Both parties are infested with capitalists who talk marx but do adam smith.

>There's no point in returning to a planned economy if the planned economy doesn't have the technical, organizational, and social technologies needed to make it actually work.

The technology already exists according to people like Paul Cockshott. So thats not the reason.




Socialism is an objective process and mode of production and is in fact by capitalism itself necessitated. To accelerate the development of production can only more accelerate the sublation of capitalism into socialism. The hegemony of bourgeoisie dictatorship itself and Western imperialists fetters the development of the productive forces and tries to prevent the historical progression, though they may sometimes claim to situate opposite. The proletarian dictatorship, however, can truly fulfill the historic necessity, although the progression of what is the real movement is beyond the horizon of what voluntarist attempts to "direct" it, "to force socialism", are capable of.


China's private sector was almost nil back during Mao times but now its 60% or maybe more and growing


>Such scenario is not happening since India, ASEAN, Africa
Lol. India will never be relevant until they get a couple of generations of socialist rule. Same for Africa. Only ASEAN country with a big population is Indonesia, which is cucked by religion and geography.


India is growing pretty fast now. Same with African countries. Look at the data 4 urself


Relations of production determines socialism. CPC could do socialism now if they wanted. But they wont since they adopted capitalism


But what metric? Nominal GDP? Productivity? Material output? Ownership?


Does wage labour exist in china?


The "problem of communication" exists?


By all metrics


High rates of growth from a low base. They are still crippled by their comprador governments and religious/ethnic divisions.


>do socialism
Jesus Christ man. And how are those relations of production in China, exactly?


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60% by all those metrics? Okay fucktard, anti-China posters talking out of their ass like always.


oh fr nice



>Socialism was never premised on a subjective definition or injunction; rather, it was a real phenomenon only later given this name.[1] Socialism was the spontaneous response of consciousness to an objective apocalypse of traditional order and meaning in every sense which took place in late 18th and 19th century Europe. Concretely, this apocalypse took dual form as the Industrial Revolution in England and the political revolution in France. This gave rise to the Social Question. As the "feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations" which formed the fabric of Ancien life were torn asunder, the cold brutality of all against all, dog eat dog, and every man for himself took their place. Socialism was simply the practical recognition of this fact and some corresponding program to remedy it. Production had to be reconciled with the majority of people's actual lives, serving social ends to guarantee a minimum of dignified, human life.
>For Utopians like Simon and Fourier, this was an intellectual problem, one which they considered themselves to have solved. Marx departs with the simple premise that capitalism would never voluntarily annihilate itself in service of better angels, as the Utopians suggested, that instead it would involuntarily but automatically annihilate itself as a mode of production due to objective contradictions essential to its very process of reproduction. Circulation of commodities at exchange value would lead to a falling rate of profit and economic crises which trigger the consolidation of capital under fewer and fewer firms. Somewhere along the line this process would no longer be sustainable as a free system without intervention. Socialism is therefore the sublation of Capitalism in the precise Hegelian sense: in preservation (cartels setting prices, central banks ordering the economy) it passes away (competition ceases, property becomes hereditary and institutional).
>Marx and Engels recognized capitalism as a force of disruption and immiseration, but in it they recognized also the forces which would lead to socialism. Never did they assert this trajectory as voluntaristic, self-conscious construction of a new system by individuals subjectively opposed to capitalism. Rather, socialism was the inevitable conclusion of tendencies integral to capitalism itself. Capitalism was for them the process by which Socialism constructed itself, independent of any individual subjective will. Communism is the real movement which gives discursive and political recognition to this fact.




Question is whether it' sdone by employment, market cap, or GDP contribution.


Countries with communist parties can implement socialism they dont have to wait. They wont implement only bcuz they are revisionists.


<Kulsum Begum, a special commentator on current affairs for CGTN, is a security and strategic affairs researcher and freelance columnist. The article reflects the author's opinions and not necessarily the views of CGTN.
Anyway, it doesn't say that it's over 50% in all the aforemented metrics (refers to urban employment only for example) but such data fluctuates depending on the method, mainstream economists often count co-ops like Huawei or TVEs (Town-Village-Enterprises which are communally run) as being part of the private sector.

Heights of the economy are in state ownership, and the base of the entire industry of China is formed by state-owned enterprises. The service sector is mostly private, but the money that's been made there (a lot addmitedly) is not reflective of the actual relations of production.


>China's private sector accounts for 60 percent of GDP and 80 percent of urban employment


The article was approved by CGTN. The data is correct.


According to the Chinese constitution, relations of exploitation (surplus-value extraction and labor power as a commodity) still exist to a large degree in many sectors of the economy during the preliminary stage of socialism.

If you are trying to think the CPC is trying to sell you something that isn't what it is, they usually don't.


Also, much of what is called the private sector is consisted up of quite small enterprises, for example run by small farmers as side stuff
And even in the Stalin era the private sector was not abolished wholesale.
The revisionist USSR might ironically have done more to control the economy than the era when J V jStalin led.


Can you at least make an argument? I've tried to explain to why different economists come up with different statistics concerning China's public sector. There are people who say it's 30%, there are others who say it's 70%, both Western and Chinese.

CGTN has tons of guest authors speaking their mind, and they barely censor foreign commentators when economics are concerned, unless they are too outrageous, like suggesting to neoliberalize China or something.


This is literally…..an opinion piece.


>still exist to a large degree in many sectors of the economy during the preliminary stage of socialism.
That's weird. I always thought that under socialism, even the primary stage, exploitation of man by man was abolished?


>Capitalist relations of production were replaced by socialist relations in the nationalised concerns. As social property, the means of production ceased to be capital. The exploitation of man by man was abolished. A new socialist labour discipline was introduced and socialist emulation was born among the workers. Socialist principles of management of production, combining one-man management with the creative activity of the working masses, were gradually established.


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>>1763548 Our teacher mentioned that it is incorrect to say that state-owned economy constitutes the majority of China during the political exams. The state-owned economy is described as 'controlling the lifeline of the national economy,' with public assets having the advantage in the total social assets. In some multiple-choice questions I've taken, there are things related to the private economy:

> People often use 'five, six, seven, eight, nine' to describe the significant role of the private economy: contributing more than 50% of taxes, over 60% of GDP, over 70% of technological innovation, over 80% of urban labor employment, and over 90% of the total number of enterprises. This indicates that the private economy plays an important role in supporting economic growth, promoting innovation, ( ), increasing tax revenue, etc.

> A. Protecting the ecological environment
> B. Expanding employment
> C. Achieving common prosperity
> D. Safeguarding national security
> The answer is B, expanding employment.

Ah, exams, painful memories.


> 人们常用“五六七八九”来形容民营经济的重要作用:即贡献了50%以上的税收,60%以上的GDP, 70%以上的技术创新,80%以上的城镇劳动就业,90%以上的企业数量。这表明民营经济在支撑经济增长、促进创新、()、增加税收等方面具有重要作用

> A.保护生态环境
> B.扩大就业
> C.实现共同富裕
> D.保障国家安全
> 答案是B扩大就业



>> The answer is B, expanding employment.
So - China's socialism still has issues with employment? So there's still an reserve army of labor?


>The victory of socialism created all the necessary conditions for the masses of the people to lead a prosperous cultured life. In accordance with the basic economic law of socialism the living standards of the working class, the peasantry and the intelligentsia, were considerably raised during the transitional period. Unemployment and want vanished.


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>Our teacher mentioned that it is incorrect to say that state-owned economy constitutes the majority of China during the political exams.
Its her job to teach facts. Dont blame her for it anon. She is right


There is no problem with the presence of the private sector under socialism in the first place.

The continuation of the presence of feudal elements even as the bourgeoisie gained their supremacy doesn't nullify capitalism's status.

People here have turned socialismo into lifestyleist questions and discarded Marxism.


>>1763600 Our country's private economy provides the majority of urban employment. The private economy is, um, a 'non-public ownership economy,' and many issues still exist. After China's reform and opening up, many areas have become similar to foreign economies, differing significantly from the old planned economy.

There should be a large labor force reserve based on our country's population, but currently, China is experiencing an aging trend, and the birth rate is decreasing.



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Dengbeetle approves this post from his grave


Wage labor exists in China. Consequently, capital exists. If capital exists, so must exploitation of man by man exist. So there cannot be socialism in China.


>There is no problem with the presence of the private sector under socialism in the first place.
There is when the majority of the worlds countries are ruled by capitalists, and the "private sector" was a significant factor in the corruption that led to the end of the first socialist country.


Call it whatever you like, call it windowsills, camels.
Like how are you still not over this?


>>1763597 Actually, these things are really quite rigid. Like many classmates, I treat this as a super-large 'memorization and recitation.' At that time, I didn't really understand the true meaning of these things.

Just like 'What is the basic economic system of our country?'
We recite day and night, 'Public ownership as the mainstay, with various forms of ownership developing side by side.'
'Public ownership as the mainstay, with various forms of ownership developing side by side.'
'Public ownership as the mainstay, with various forms of ownership developing side by side.'
'Public ownership as the mainstay, with various forms of ownership developing side by side.'
Then in the exam, we just fill in 'Public ownership as the mainstay, with various forms of ownership developing side by side.' It's like someone gives you the first half of a poem's title, and you recite the second half without really understanding the true meaning of the poet.




>The phrase directly deals with the question: where does the socialist mode of production come from? Is it the consciousness of men which compose the mode of production? This is not the case in the case of dialectical materialism, the mode of production is an objective and historical reality.

>The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness. At a certain stage of development, the material productive forces of society come into conflict with the existing relations of production or – this merely expresses the same thing in legal terms – with the property relations within the framework of which they have operated hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. Then begins an era of social revolution. The changes in the economic foundation lead sooner or later to the transformation of the whole immense superstructure.[2]

>Further, using Marxist dialectics, the Marxist conclusion is that there is no single defining point where the mode of production changes. The previous mode of production contains in itself the germ for the new one, and the new one contain remnants from the old.

>This contradiction, which gives to the new mode of production its capitalistic character, contains the germ of the whole of the social antagonisms of today. The greater the mastery obtained by the new mode of production over all important fields of production and in all manufacturing countries, the more it reduced individual production to an insignificant residuum, the more clearly was brought out the incompatibility of socialized production with capitalistic appropriation.

>The change thus comes when the previous mode of production develops its inherent contradictions to such extent that it is not materially sustainable anymore. Engels refers to the mode of production being in contradiction with the mode of exchange, i.e, the socialist mode of production is in rebellion against the capitalist mode of production.

>In these crises, the contradiction between socialized production and capitalist appropriation ends in a violent explosion. The circulation of commodities is, for the time being, stopped. Money, the means of circulation, becomes a hindrance to circulation. All the laws of production and circulation of commodities are turned upside down. The economic collision has reached its apogee. The mode of production is in rebellion against the mode of exchange.


this exactly, so called aes countries are now capitalists


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He was right.


Nuke usage won't be an all-or-nothing thing, it'll likely proceed along a ladder of bigger and bigger escalations as parties try to one-up their foe with minimum force required to avoid the full MAD. This does lead into a fun possibility for China here. Consider:

Nuking a major PLA base of means striking the Chinese mainland, thus triggering the full countervalue response on cities.
However, the US military presence in Asia is critically dependent on their overseas bases (Guam, Palau, Wake, Japan/Korea etc) for their logistics. They are critically not in the "core" US mainland - and thus represent a lower rung on the escalation ladder than nuking your opponment's homeland (and triggering the full MAD response). Take them out, the entire US war effort starves and collapses overnight.

On this critical step on the escalation ladder, the US is in a bind: They cannot escalate further, because that's full MAD and everyone dies. And yet, a retaliatory strike of equal military effectiveness would still trigger Chinese countervalue on their cities. At best, they could try for one of the SCS islands as a consolation prize, none of which are anywhere as vital to the Chinese war effort as Guam. They're stuck with no winning move.
On this key step, China can nuke the US without getting nuked in return.


I love it, now this
is theory


I've been thinking about loong as "loong" for one day now since I saw the tweet. And I am reporting back to say how feel after 24 hours: its obvious they were right on about the need to separate out this word LOL.

Once you start understanding that there is a thing called loong, which resembles the aquatic newt, and is the River God which governs rain and the flow of water, and was the symbol of the emperor and is auspicious sign, it's wild how different it is from a dragon and how inappropriate it is to combine the terms lol.

In fact I'd say that the translation of loong as dragon presents a much more hostile and threatening charisma behind the word which is consequently attached to many Chinese things.



PRoblem is, the Americans have advanced BMD, and can do early-course interception via Japan and South Korea. Moreover, the total size of the Chinese arsenal is currently too small, at only 500 warheads, so the Chinese can't obtain full deterrence.

Any evaluation of a Sino-American war also has to factor in cyber and electronic warfare, meaning that it's possible that given Chinese cyber and electronic warfare inferiority (considered 5 years behind the Americans and probably Mossad), it's possible that the highly networked PLA will get stopped in its tracks immediately by multiple zero day attacks.


China is not considered behind in EW.


>self described tankie thinks geopolitics is theory


Theory to me in my "unorthodox" usage is "that which is not uninteresting"
In any case you gotta admit "here's how China can nuke the US without getting nuked in return" is way more interesting than 99% of what passes for "theoryposting" may Allah forgive me for uttering this word.


>However, whenever I check Mainland Chinese political circles, it is a shithole filled with anti-CCP people, jingri, race-traitors (people who larp as Japanese), weirdo anarchists, and western baizuo type liberals (whom the majority of them are, according to my experience, pedophiles).

Dude I remember seeing the completely mental breakdown they had during the pandemic following the successful elimination of covid. The people on my wechat were literally having panic attacks and nervous breakdowns because of the backlash against them and like Fang Fang I think? That shit was eye-popping. I remember one of them saying later they were crying tears of happiness when that "last genertion" meme happened to. They are literally autogenocidal. China experienced the "negative polarization" first but tis from these lib types who just can't deal with being wrong about how good American and Free Markets are.



>Prof David Curtis, from University College London’s Genetics Institute, says his resignation as editor-in-chief of the Annals of Human Genetics is an issue of freedom of speech in the face of the science community’s increasing dependence on China.

> David Curtis, a professor of genetics at University College London. Curtis resigned from his position as editor-in-chief of Annals of Human Genetics, another Wiley journal, after the publisher vetoed a call to consider boycotting Chinese science because of ethical concerns

I found this article following up on another one related to fallout from the Sinophobia peak during the pandemic where it was completely normal and lauded by the nation for prominent academics to call for a *total boycott of Chinese science*, among other things. Like just throwing every Chinese person out of science and banning them from publishing papers or collaboration with anyone outside of China. This was normal and everywhere, and back then if you said "sinophobia" you had every leftoid jumping down your throat saying your were just like a Zionist.

At least now there seems to be more acknowledgment that anti-sinitic racism is real.


Every society will have these kinds of traitors. Hell, the only way I’d consider Leftypol as not being such is because of the extreme and obvious decline of the West, with the United States fucking over the economy and science of all its vassals, and the United States itself approaching Fascism.



IIRC, both China and the United States are developing GaN systems, and the gap has to be less than 5 years. The Type 055's AESA, for instance, is more advanced than the comparable radars on the Arleigh Burkes.

It's reasonable to assume both sides have jammers and sensors of comparable sophistication.

However, if you stick to OSINTs, it seems to be that the NSA has 5 years more advanced cyberwarfare capabilities than China's. Moreover, the United States is the developer of the internet, and its technologies (Intel or AMD's licensed stuff) dominate the semiconductor industry.

It's reasonable to assume that China will be inferior in cyberwarfare until proven otherwise.



Wat do??


>my identity is cheerleading a country I've never visited on the internet


>support relies on visiting
All hail to the immortal communist praxis of the CPC


Gacha players are all insane. Look at the Girls Frontline 2 NTR controversy. They're so mentally ill they're justifying the general anti-gaming sentiment from the Chinese boomers.


99% chance your "support" consists totally of posting so I guess it doesn't matter if you take a vacation as part of the larp or not, it's not praxis either way


>le support vs. praxis false dichotomy
Okay? There is no actual praxis for supportinge the CPC any way from my home country but also no supporting avenues.

So now what, uygha?

China keeps on rolling over your world system and I love every moment of it. I feel like jiving ti the unstoppable world events.

What have you got on the other hand?

You'ze only got FEE-FEEz, 😂😂


>At best, they could try for one of the SCS islands as a consolation prize, none of which are anywhere as vital to the Chinese war effort as Guam. They're stuck with no winning move.
Nobody ever really wins in a nuclear war though. China starts nuking U.S. bases in Japan then the U.S. throws 500 nuclear bombs at Chinese coastal cities. Which is why nuclear war isn't a good option for anyone.


>my world system
If you don't support China then you must support America, of course. And let's pretend not to know that China was America's most important ally for most of the Cold War and is still integrated into the "world system".


But she isn't even all that sexual


Socialism with Chinese characteristics, you cuck


😂 Anime mobile games, oh my, sometimes this thing is even more difficult to handle among Chinese young people than politics.



Okay, 80% employment for 60% of GDP. That's literally the discription of a small scale enterprise. Fact that China has a similar "private sector" footprint as light industry elsewhere hints at that China's state sector holds all the heavy industries

Besides, private or state sector don't make socialism, socialism is when the ruling class is working class, and they own the means of production as a class. Not a word about how they hold those means of production - privately, leasing, or as a state ownership substituting the direct ownership


>socialism is when the ruling class is working class, and they own the means of production as a class. Not a word about how they hold those means of production - privately, leasing, or as a state ownership substituting the direct ownership
This triggers the West


You mean capitalism with Chinese characteristics



The minimal definition of socialism, for me, is a situation where economic elites, corporate or otherwise, do not control the state, and the influence of the bourgeoisie is minimized.

That necessarily requires substantial state intervention in the economy.


THIS is what I coom to.



All the heavy industries in the hands of the state make it so light industries are dependent on the state. If the state says to produce N tons of steel, there isn't going to be any extra or any less than that, meaning steel products will be weighting the sameish tons as the state ordered to produce

It's more weird than the steel tons example in real life - SOEs owning shares in small enterprises and each other to get a seat at decision tables amongst other things, but that's the principle, light industries can never become independent from the inputs producers


China go up: up up up!

Restovus go up & up & up!!!



Also, the thing I found on reddit. Apparently, Chinese companies are instructed to spend their extra money on useful stuff, so there's never record profits ever, and no mass layoffs either because there's no way to get the cash out of profit highs, those companies can either help the state or reinvest into production and wages and such with those profits


Bro, you have been seething ITT three days in a row.


Reddit upvote



Radical feminists in China are a bunch of rotten, spoilt pigs, they only care about getting more privileges and money, they are selfish and don't care about women's rights at all


You can remove radical and China from that sentence and it would be applicable to almost all feminist movements in the world, except maybe those in like the Middle East and certain parts of Africa that are not Angola and Nigeria.


Maybe including Japan and Korea bases on the list is a bit far (they actually have significant civilian populations to collateral) but for Guam? Palau? Wake? These aren't "real" core America, these are colonial/imperialist military bases. The narrative is that they stuck their hands in fire and got rightly burned. American decisionmakers will need to have a good hard think if escalating further for feelgood vengeance is worth being personally reduced to radioactive glass; they can't hide behind the military anymore in that scenario.



China has a no-first-use policy. The United States does not. Guaranteeing the destruction of major American population centers from New York to Los Angeles is enough to deter American use in a hot confrontation.


Expanding on this, it's the psychological blow to the West that this produces that will be critical to prevent them from coming back for another round in WW4.
The modern West considers itself above the rest of humanity, spoiled rotten with the assumption that nobody could deny them whatever they wanted. They think themselves invincible, undefeatable, their soldiers war-gods capable of killing whoever he so desires without fear of retaliation. Even their boondoggles in the Mideast never really hurt them; soldiers dying doesn't matter much to them as long as American power projection seems recoverable, and in the process they killed more than they lost, which they can cling to for comfort. If there is to be hope in the long-term, this attitude must be broken.

Uncorking the nuclear genie hits them not just materially, but also psychologically, spiritually. It's not enough to just kill their soldiers, they must be massacred, butchered on an industrial scale the same way they have done to the global South in the past centuries. Neo-colonial pursuits will no longer bring gold or glory, merely a inescapable death. Training, experience, equipment, none of it will matter; they die all the same. Fusion-fire shall cast them down from their stolen thrones, and as they tumble down to join their victims it shall burn this message into their retinas:
To guard new Garden of Eden that we shall build, at the gates we shall place the Specter of Communism, and in its hands we shall place a flaming sword that turns every way. It shall drive out the predatory beasts and parasites with the light of the sun, and be a beacon for the poor and wretched and downtrodden that lights the way into a new future.

My other radical strategy proposal is to keep studiously to no-first-use in order to hit US politicians with conventional-ICBMs. Ironically robust US nuclear forces is what opens them up to this, since a robust second strike ability means they can avoid instant-MAD launch-on-warning and wait and see without losing retaliation ability. This admittedly has it's own risks e.g. promoting development of ABM systems that could neuter actual nuclear MAD, and "what if they do launch-on-warning anyways" that I don't really have satisfactory answers for.


I just recently compared Anduril's Ghost Shark to the Haishen 6000. The Haishen 6000 has radically greater maximum depth (6000 meters) and is 25% larger to boot (UUVs / AUVs, at least unclassified, are microscale right now, but are moving toward the full submarine scale).

Nukes are a worst case scenario, but we seem to have the technological advantage at least when it comes to UUV / AUV hull design.


The Chinese are really REALLY angry about the fishermen incident. The MFA has to remove the comments because 99% of them are "BLOOD FOR BLOOD NOW" lol


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>Not a good thing
It's a great fucking thing. Defang these retards. "Strong" Japan was NEVER beneficial to China. They were only ever humble when China was clearly stronger, like during the Tang era (and even then they got uppity and tried to invade Korea before China kicked them out).



Also, honestly, first, exploiters and parasites should be welcomed provided we have the ability to reform them and they have the willingness to be reformed.

Puyi, for instance, unlike the Romanovs, wasn't executed. He was retrained into a humble gardener and allowed to live a humble life.

The Dalai Lama, head of a theocracy that controlled millions of serfs, was in cooperation with the CPC until he switched color and fled.

Next, honestly, we do not need nuclear weapons to stop the West from its endless rapaciousness, although a hard end to American imperialism via a catastrophic defeat would be interesting.

I do support space bomber capabilities to hit targets in the American mainland, but guess freaking what? I really don't think that the United States will pick a fight before such space bombers are ready, primarily because they note a weakness in capability until 2030, and given the pace of PLA technological development, by the time we hit 2030 the PLA will be at parity in other ways.

Do you really think the Chinese can't smuggle Nvidia AI chips in for classified work? Do you really think SSMB won't be producing cheaper and better Chinese AI chips by 2030?

Confidence, but not complacency, is warranted.


Glad they didn't go after my (current) waifu; it would be war if they did.


>The U.S. has some ideas to fight a war. One thing is that the ocean is really big (you have no idea how big it is) and the carrier groups can basically "hide" in the vastness of it.
"Hide" from modern ISR? Seems like Ukraine has disproved this.


>Radical feminists in China are a bunch of rotten, spoilt pigs
How should a westerner understand Chinese "Radical feminists" in this context? Are they a western influenced grouping or something?


The black sea is a tad smaller than the pacific. Also even though satellites are getting better and possible to rent by any party clouds still exist so only near pear adversaries of the US can really follow their fleet movements by shadowing them with submarines and even then not totally reliably. And I wager that when most of the satellites go down in the event of a hot war it will be even easier to hide ships.



Sunflower / Shaheed / Geran should only cost in the region of 20k USD a pop, and can obtain 2000 km range.

China has Divine Eagle HALE drones that presumably can do long-distance endurance, as well as hypersonic reconnaissance drones.

Chinese stealth fighters also have an absurdly large radome, so they can conduct recon missions, and the J-20s will likely reach 500-1000 in number by 2030. The J-20s have an operational radius of 1500-2000km, mind you, meaning that they can dogfight over Tokyo when launched from Wuhu in Anhui.


Networks of fixed and autonomous roving sensor drones, augmented with AI data analysis to deal with the unimaginable floods of data, will probably make it extremely difficult to hide anything in the coming years imo. I agree that satellites seem vulnerable in a hot war scenario.



Yeah, I mean, after Ukraine, it's all drones baby. Replicator is the only US project that's potentially a threat; the carriers in American wargames got wiped out and it was up to the Seawolves, Virginias, and Columbias to knock out a Chinese invasion fleet and the B-2s / B-21s to deal counterforce damage.

In reality, the Chinese have no intention to invade Taiwan when bringing the PLARF / PLAAF to bear on Taiwan is a much less costly option.


What does it even say?


> Poisoning teenagers, no promotion allowed

This is actually a criticism from parents against mihoyo games, believing that anime and mobile games have harmed the minds of their children.

Feminists also criticize these games, but it is about "objectifying women."

> 毒害青少年,不准宣传




I have not heard much about the feminist movement in China, is it like South Korea or the United States?


It's often been stated in articles said by many CPC supporters in China that the west is funding groups to destabilize China. For example, when the Epstein Island list was published the femenists in China were completely silent.


chinese "feminism" is hilarious, but this is not it
>Puyi, for instance, unlike the Romanovs, wasn't executed. He was retrained into a humble gardener and allowed to live a humble life.
it was decades too late for an execution


more like sk


The sino wave is hitting Serbia


>>1765224 I'm not very familiar with feminism in the United States, but in many cases, the conflict between men and women is also quite serious. I often hear in male circles, 'If a bad thing is done by a woman, there won't be much criticism,' 'Women want men with high education, good looks, and wealth, while they have nothing themselves,' 'Many women would rather date black men than Chinese men, insulting their ancestors.' Jokes attacking feminism are everywhere, especially on a forum like '贴吧' (similar to Reddit).

Additionally, the insulting gesture towards male genitalia used in Korean feminism has spread to the mainland. Initially, many mainland netizens used this gesture to attack Koreans, but later many men realized that the meaning of insulting men with this gesture began to stand on the side of Korean men.

Here, we use the meme of 'female fist.' The pronunciation of 'fist' in Chinese is the same as '权' (rights/power)."






Of course, there are often men who blame feminism for interfering with popular culture, frequently accusing it of influencing anime and games. Many people also claim that feminism is hostile towards local men and displays national discrimination.

However, I rarely have conflicts with feminism myself. I usually hang out in male-dominated spaces like gaming, anime, and current affairs hotspots. Oh, and I'm a single guy. Damn, I'm not very good at dealing with women, sometimes even struggling with same-sex friends. Many of my classmates have found girlfriends. Damn.




HSR and GI are really tame compared to their old MiHorny days, or pretty much any of the other animu devs on the market. And they're equal-opportunity now.
I'm not gonna complain too much though, I can appreciate fanservice but the excesses can get pretty cringey.


Honestly the whole thing with Chinese women wanting Black men makes no sense because there are so few black people there as compared to the United States. I have had this one feminist friend who was pretty friendly with me but their open hatred of men (I was one of the "good ones") really irked me out. Another instance was when this former friend (Sara) of mine brought me to meet her friend group for an anime convention and one of the women there (Destiny) made her hatred of men and me apparent from the start, and made it a point to make sure I felt excluded, we went to a museum, and then she suddenly got sick and couldn't go to the anime convention, although I am pretty sure they just wanted an excuse to ditch me. And before anybody says something, I was interested in Sara because I thought she was interested in me back (Although it turns out she was interested in a guy from high school and cut me off when I made a joke about telling him.)

Even though I am pretty attractive myself, I have rarely gotten attention from women because Autism; however, I am talking to a girl and she is making it apparent she likes me! =) but the catch is that she lives 90 miles/144 kilometers away from me.


its only a foreign meme, that bbc stuff


>>1765256 Hope you can reunite with your waifu. ( ´͈ ᵕ `͈ )◞♡

On the Chinese internet, there are actually quite a few unfriendly jokes about black people. Many people believe that the country has provided many benefits to foreign immigrants, and some even worry that they may contaminate the Chinese bloodline (which sounds somewhat similar to a portion of Americans).
Here's a joke here that criticizes black international students.

"The Descendant of the Dragon: Black Dragon Legend
Chapter 1: Accidentally Entering China
Chapter 2: Hospitable University
Chapter 3: Campus Belle Falls for Me
Chapter 4: Full Scholarship and Endless Affairs with Junior Sisters
Chapter 5: Descendant of the Dragon
Chapter 6: Even Black Dragons Are Dragons
Chapter 7: 'What? Yellow Dragon counts as a dragon too?'
Chapter 8: 'You guys of the yellow race should be the ones to roll!'"

希望你能和你的waifu相聚 ( ´͈ ᵕ `͈ )◞♡
第一章: 误入中国国
第二章: 好客的大学
第三章: 美女校花爱上我
第四章: 全额奖学金与学妹操不完
第五章: 龙的传人
第六章: 黑龙也是龙
第七章: “什么?黄龙也算龙?”
第八章: “该滚的是你们吧!”


Despite being very advanced in many areas, it seems China, just like everywhere else, still struggles with a lot of social issues. I think Mao was right about the incessant political struggle in contradictions, it may never stop.




There's supposedly hidden financial instruments the Chinese own in shell companies that are not obviously Chinese.

In other words, if the Chinese want to drive the knife in, the dollar is fucked.




Soft power starts at home.


In English this is called probably a fascist.


unfortunately it seems that chinese incels are also retarded


>>1765580 Some of these individuals can indeed be described as 'national socialist.' Some even harbor strong nationalism rather than favoring socialism. Many patriotic socialists also oppose large-scale immigration of Black people, driven by intense nationalism.

The song 'Sunshine Rainbow Little White Horse' is often used for discriminating against Black people, and 'you gotta move' is a common background music for Black racial jokes.

The number of Black people in China is often speculated through conspiracy theories to be large, but personally, I believe there are not as many as speculated; it should be within normal ranges, with Black immigrants more likely inclined towards Europe and America.

Honestly, in the current tumultuous internet environment, many things are being jokingly exploited without limits - racial discrimination jokes, gender discrimination jokes, and even people from our own provinces, such as Henan, are often accused of being 'thieves.' Although it is undoubtedly unacceptable from a moral and ethical standpoint, many people, while accusing others of discrimination, themselves exhibit 'double standards' by discriminating against other things, revealing an excessive amount of 'hypocrisy.' It seems like everyone has a 'dark side.' The song 'Ching Cheng hanji (鍘美案)' has also been criticized by some Chinese people, even though they themselves often make jokes about other races.

As for me, I am someone who often mingles in subcultures, so I am not particularly sensitive to these insulting memes. I have been to VK, where Russians often joke about the 'social credit system.' Personally, I think their jokes are similar to the political jokes we make domestically, such as the 'Green Roman' (this meme suggests that after 1453, the Ottoman Empire is the new Roman Empire, mainly a political joke about Muslims and the Balkan Peninsula). Sometimes, I try to talk to them, but they are somewhat wary of me because there are indeed Chinese people who cannot handle political jokes and end up insulting Russians under their memes. I sometimes worry that talking to them might lead VK's Chinese users to label me as 'shen shen(神神),' so I have not engaged in conversations with many politically inclined Russians.




一首“阳光彩虹小白马”的歌经常被用于歧视黑人,“you gotta move”也是常见的黑人种族玩笑背景音乐。


讲真在现在浮躁的互联网上许多事物都在被开无底线的玩笑,种族歧视玩笑,性别歧视玩笑,甚至我们自己的一些省份比如河南人也经常被指责“小偷”,虽然从道德伦理的角度上来说肯定是不行的,但是很多人虽然指责一些人歧视一些东西,但是他们自己也歧视另一些东西,显得过于“双标”了一些。似乎人人心中都有一些“阴暗面”。那首“Ching Cheng hanji(鍘美案)”也被一些华人指责,尽管他们自己可能经常开其他种族的玩笑。



Is this not an extreme failure of education and social cohesion by the state/ communist party to let such nationalism, racism and misogyny spread?
I remember looking at Chinese ticktock once and a lot of it was weird i think pro misogynist
thing of women getting beaten up and moaning.


>thing of women getting beaten up and moaning.
I mean


>Girls Frontline 2 NTR controversy
wtf, why are there male characters in the first place. how can companies fail to understand their own product this much. I'm nonetheless glad the cn userbase had the energy and determination to put the devs right back in their place


It was pretty disturbing I think a Chinese incel thing.
For a party which has strong controls over media its very worrying they allow platforms of incel shit or nationalistic and fascist movements to grow, no?


No. The Party sows conditions to which everyone can live and get pussy in communist society. Incels are a natural phenomenon of all modes of production, though China actively combats incel ideology with the the arms of proletarian state dictatorship rather than leaving it to the corporations and their policy code. The incels' lack of pussy is not due to the failures of the proletarian dictatorship, but due to each incel's individual failings.
Indeed. Nationalism and fascism are boogeyman words, invented by liberals.


>Look at the Girls Frontline 2 NTR controversy
The what?


Should communist china legalize prostitution and make state prostitutes to relieve the incels


Go back to being dead Fourier, there shan't be troupes of women who knock on doors and have sex with whoever is inside


I don't play this shit but it's cringe and it's more of a meme that just got out of control because waifufags are mentally ill and people like to troll them. Basically in the story some waifu character got a letter from some enemy terrorist who went to jail, thanking her for motivating him to give up his life of crime or whatever. This spiraled into players thinking their waifu is cheating on them with this guy and the devs changed the random terrorist mook into a girl. It's so fucking stupid let's not talk about it here.

Get some help if you actually give a shit about this. Stop playing gacha SLOP in general. There are better ways to give your money to China.


I doubt it. China carries over a lot of contradictions from capitalism


Peak leftypol faggot.
>Should communist china legalize prostitution and make state prostitutes to relieve the incels
Literally just restrict their Internet access and force them to go to ommunity activities and actually meeting women. It's not difficult.


There are more guys than girls in China. Obviously the incel epidemic will grow until it equalizes in the next generations.

With that being said it's still worse in South Korea. Men and women genuinely hate each other there.


Anon i think that's just called a sexual kink


>I remember looking at Chinese ticktock once and a lot of it was weird i think pro misogynist
You actually saw a Youtube video of a gweilo reacting to shitposting on Douyin.


If you're sexual kink is violence against women you're a malignant agent in society who should be removed and there's no world in which such 'fetishes' should be advertised to kids on their apps let alone adults.


are you sure it wasn't a sexual thing? how does that even show up in your feed?

brother I don't even play videogames, but I looked up the thing and I have to say, I sympathize with their position


I noticed you specifically said violence against women
Care to explain?


uygha this isn't like people jerking off over domestic violence, this is just softcore bdsm


such innocent bait


Rough sex can still be consensual, don't be a prude


>>1765687 (ME)


Yeah without feudalism there won't be socialism either, doesn't mean we should praise based feudalism. Man you people are so stupid
I mean, patriotism is good just like rural nostalgia are often a positive thing. But you can't lose sight of the cart for the horse


>chinese chinlets also have interracial cuckold paranoia
Oh for fuck sake man. Aren't most black students in China from middle class background? No matter what your economic class is black people keep getting fucked over everywhere we go


Thanks I was trying to remember what the app was called there. No though I don't know who (or what) gwellio is. But it was son compilation vid of scrolling one of these freak social media apps.
I-its BDSM!
LOL. This is what I imagine the stereotype of men defending their deeply disturbed fantasies sound like.
I've had enough sex to know bdsm isn't when getting of on hitting or seeing people hit, anon.



>>1765667 That is another game from Girls' Frontline company called "project neural cloud" "project neural cloud" has male characters and is not the latest installment in the Girls' Frontline series. The controversies surrounding Girls' Frontline 2 could fill an entire thread. However, there are no male characters introduced in it.


wait but who is NTRing the self-insert then?


Nobody. It's literally nothing. They just call it "NTR" to stir up shit and seethe.


Anyhow, aren't there like dozens, even hundreds of girls in these gacha harem games. And from my experience in gacha you will only use like 10 characters at any given time Surely having one of them getting "taken away" isn't that much of an emotional blow or whatever.


Well people pay an insufferable amounts of money to gamble and get these .jpgs so of course the ones that like that particular character would hate it. But that's not what happened anyway >>1765696

Anyway this is off-topic.


>>1765723 Girls' Frontline 2 has a popular character in China, Type 95, who is considered a "waifu" by many Chinese players. However, in the storyline, she consistently favors a male character named "Raymond" instead of the player, the "Commander."
This plotline involves numerous scenes, including various interpretations of the story, and even extends to the definition of the status of female characters in anime-themed mobile games. This narrative has dealt a significant blow to the entire Girls' Frontline player community, and it's normal if you find it difficult to understand at first glance.
You might think, "This is absurd; they can't get upset over these things." However, those players getting upset genuinely consider these characters as their "waifus." Otherwise, why wouldn't these games portray firearms as male characters? They spend money on this game not to see their favorite waifus calling out other men's names.



This is genuine mental illness.


These 'people' need to be sent to a re educational centre for their own good.
This is no life worth having.


>the devs changed the random terrorist mook into a girl.
Wait a minute that would mean the waifu character is now cheating on the player with a girl. Unexpected yuri development.


>>1765737 Similar controversies exist from Genshin Impact to Blue Archive, each dispute is enough to warrant its own thread. In Genshin Impact, there are arguments condemning the newest character as the "black stockings little boy." In Arknights, there's a quarrel about the protagonist "Doctor" being absent in the storyline. Meanwhile, in Blue Archive, there's criticism directed towards "yuri enthusiasts." This is what I meant by, "Oh my, this stuff is really trickier to handle than politics."

If you're unlucky enough in these debates, you might see your personal information appearing on public platforms.




I see so raymond is the bull. I don't know what that company was thinking, making such a stupid mistake. our sexuality (and our desire, really) is 100% mediated by fantasy and if the object if real, the fantasy will always be sabotaged by reality, but when it is fictional, only sloppy craftsmanship by the artist can disrupt it. imo it isn't absurd at all
anyway, lets not derail the thread

how is the situation with dialects? are dialects allowed in official procedures, schools, etc.? and in the workplace? does it depend on the company? do young people use mandarin casually or is it seen as an "other"?


>>1765757 There are no special requirements for dialects; Mandarin is the standard language here. It is quite normal for locals to communicate using dialects.


Anon do CN leftists read contemporary Marxist scholars in Chinese academia? I know in the Anglo sphere of Leftism there are many people who consider contemporary academists like Zizek et al to be harmful, and many harbor explicit anti-academia sentiment because many of them perceive orthodox scholarship to be controlled by the bourgeoisie and imperialist interests.


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>>1765775 Zizek also has a presence.
The last time Zizek spoke about Palestine, it sparked a significant debate, didn't it?



Based Daniel Ortega.


It would be based if China was socialist. Redpill me, chinabros.

1. How can a country with crises be seen as socialist? Crises are a feature of capitalism.
2. The way CPC tried to regulate the number of children looks not materialist at all. There are objective laws behind that. Trying to regulate population growth is the same as trying to out-regulate the economy, and Marxists knew this was impossible 100 years before PRC was even created. Why did they do that?
3. Why does a socialist country need stock markets? What is their function if the state is the real owner anyway?
4. Modern Chinese stuff I saw doesn't look like anything a socialist country would produce, especially wuxia. That shit is just vile from what I've seen, 100% wish fulfillment and focus on personal power, slaughtering whole villages for personal slights. Somehow worse than what Japanese, Koreans or Russians write. Living in a socialist environment inevitably moves you away from this bullshit, yet it's popular in China. Why?


>1. How can a country with crises be seen as socialist? Crises are a feature of capitalism.
China is not capitalist. Crises happen in any mode of production. Crises are non-existent in Modern Communist China. Crises in Modern Communist China are only crises to the bourgeoisie, not to the proletariat. See the real estate "crisis".
>2. The way CPC tried to regulate the number of children looks not materialist at all. There are objective laws behind that. Trying to regulate population growth is the same as trying to out-regulate the economy, and Marxists knew this was impossible 100 years before PRC was even created. Why did they do that?
You are a dumbass. China's widely successful One Child Policy was scientific in all aspects.
>3. Why does a socialist country need stock markets? What is their function if the state is the real owner anyway?
Read Deng. The stock markets are under the People's control. https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/deng-xiaoping/1992/179.htm
>4. Modern Chinese stuff I saw doesn't look like anything a socialist country would produce, especially wuxia. That shit is just vile from what I've seen, 100% wish fulfillment and focus on personal power, slaughtering whole villages for personal slights. Somehow worse than what Japanese, Koreans or Russians write. Living in a socialist environment inevitably moves you away from this bullshit, yet it's popular in China. Why?
Chinese historical fiction is socially and historically necessary in Communist China.


wuxia is stale af don't know why its popular to this day


>China is not capitalist


>China is not socialist


It's both, elements of capitalism and slavery were present, elements of socialism and capitalism can coexist until contradictions force the domination of one over the other, China hasn't reached that point yet









>This is actually a criticism from parents against mihoyo games, believing that anime and mobile games have harmed the minds of their children.
>Feminists also criticize these games, but it is about "objectifying women."
Is there some kind of wider civil society campaign against anime and mobile games?
>If you're sexual kink is violence against women you're a malignant agent in society who should be removed and there's no world in which such 'fetishes' should be advertised to kids on their apps let alone adults.
Great point anon, this is a controversial issue on /leftypol/ and online right now. Civil society should decide what fetishes should be allowed on online platforms. If not to decide what fetishes, reasonable people can decide what level of fetish should be allowed on apps.


I've seen some videos talking about africans in places like Guangdong, in this one video the subway was basically full of Africans and not on Chinese was in sight.


No go kill yourself stupid degenerate pig


>China's widely successful One Child Policy was scientific in all aspects.

I have to disagree, I am pretty sure China at that time could fully have done away with a mere two-child policy there was no need to restrict parents to only having one child. I think the whole one-child thing was caused by western fear-mongering.


>Is there some kind of wider civil society campaign against anime and mobile games?

Yes, some of the regional governments have put out ads to encourage parents to assist their children cut down on phone use and social media use. I'm not sure if it's working though.


I wish this man good health and long life. The way he says "YANKEE" is like firing a bullet.


ntr controversy was least of the controversies, or just the immediate cause, gf2 controversies are complected
the proper word is doxxed
you dont normally call these people feminists
>Is there some kind of wider civil society campaign against anime and mobile games?
parents know nothing about anything, just blaming whatever they think their kids are into
ive never seen that, probably also not a kink
it seems neither you and i have ever been to gd



Heres your (you)



no answer to basic marxism as always


The stock market is literally a means to allow proletarian ownership of the MoP.
It allows a massive swath of the working class to get a direct stake in the functioning of a company.
If a company which has its stock owned by a massive portion of the population wishes to appease and provide a benefit to its benefactors, it must necessarily provide a service that is beneficial to society as a whole. If the ownership of a company's stock is widespread enough then trying to differentiate those who own and those who do not own the stock becomes impossible to efficiently distinguish, and it becomes more cost-efficient to simply deliver results that provide for the entirety of society rather than spend the funds to somehow exclude only those who do not own.
With the reforms of Deng, the population of China wealthy enough to penetrate the stock market has absolutely exploded, and the goal of the CPC to allow everyone, or at least the necessary amount of people, to be able to invest in the stock market so create the conditions above mentioned, where the broad masses are the investor, and where the returns must necessarily provide benefits to the masses as a whole instead of a select few stockholders as it is in the capitalist west.


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What are you implying


This is not an arguement. You are wrong. The Once Child Policy was a massive step towards Chinese Modernization.


Because she's black and East Asia fetishizes white skin as a sign of high class upbringing
Skin color aside the actress for the Lil Mermad live action is objectively, very cute.


>East Asia fetishizes white skin as a sign of high class upbringing
Why did Tenet, Fast X etc. become a hit in China despite of its Black and Hispanic cast?


Well the black people there are mostly dudes. Its generally acceptable for masculines to have swarthier skin to some extent.
Anyhow there is nothing wrong with prefering fairer skin. But the anon i responded to implied that the actress casted for Little Mermaid is ugly and this is because 'wokist' love ugliness. Like what universe do you live in bro


>We Wuz Tangz is real


Of course it is. You don't get to wewuz and steal someone else's culture just because you slapped a yin-yang on your flag.


waifu faggotry is universal it seems


Thx for posting this, I'm reading it rn, almost 1/3rd through.

What's interesting, and I presume (since I haven't yet read the whole thing) is the possible perspective from all of this: when the Western capitalist system collapses the most, the Chinese socialist system gains the most!!

Like, how does this tendency not give a fucking clue to all the westoid uktras, leftcoms, anarchos, and socdems is mesmerizing.

Fucking Deng introduced a system wherein if the West loses the East wins.



Hong Kong is Asia's World City and has been through a lot the past few years. In 2019 Hong Kong protests rocked the city, threatening its future. Jimmy Lai was one of the main people behind the protests and is currently on trial faces charges of sedition and colluding with foreign governments. The case of Jimmy Lai is important for the future of Hong Kong, but what really happened during these protests and is the trial of Jimmy Lai legit? Or is this a shame trial from China who is targeting an innocent victim? Let's break down the truth of Jimmy Lai and Hong Kong in today's video.


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In the beginning stages of seriously studying Marxism. China has especially been of keen interest to me. I've been reading Edgar Snow's, "Red Star Over China" along with "Foundations of Leninism." I have been ordering so many books, which I plan to read after these (Governance of China, more Lenin, more Mao of course, Das Kapital too although I think I may need to read a bit more before I am ready to tackle it.)

Edgar Snow's writings on Mao portray a young man who's upbringing and situation is very similar to my own. A man who, from my current understanding, may be the most important socialist thinker and activist in history. It's hard not to read about Mao and feel a strange sense of melancholy. A man who I wish I could meet and have a conversation with (not unlike Christ.)

Could any of you comrades suggest more books for me to read? After Foundations of Leninism, I am planning to read What is to be Done by Lenin, as well as Imperialism: The highest stage of Capitalism. I have a copy of On Guerilla Warfare, but I feel like that is less dire of a read given the current situation we find ourselves in. I have been trying to read 1 speech from Governance of China a week. It is hard to dedicate too much time to reading as I work 40 hours a week at a factory and I am enrolled in college. On top of this, I have a gf who I spend a considerable amount of my freetime with (slowly doing my part to teach her what I am reading.)

Thanks for your time and consideration bros.


Snow isn’t objective, and you should read through collected works of Chairman Mao, as well as through Western biographies, both hostile and friendly. Remember that Mao is insanely charismatic and Western opinion control has incentive to demonize him.


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comrade uqtl038 is fucking based. Comrades we should all strive to be uqt


Based and Ruguanist-pilled.


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This isn't surprising, Australia is basically a Chinese vassal state already and they know it


Update: The Lai regime cremated the bodies of the two men before returning their destroyed remains.


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Holy shit they really are planning to sacrifice themselves for the American Regime.


The basic benefit of population control is economic; I.e, massively reduced tfr results in reduced spending on children, providing greater capital accumulation for providing for the material uplifting of the society, as well as encouraging higher quality social spending on children, bolstering human capital accumulation.

In raw economic terms, while rightist policies are often good for material accumulation in terms of infrastructure, left policies without fail are far superior in terms of developing human capital.

While I’ve said repeatedly that China is not a worker’s paradise, one important difference is that the Chinese government cares about you, if not in individual terms, about you as a class. Iirc, one of the things that created mass youth unemployment in the past few years were government attempts to upskilling older workers into service industries from manufacturing, meaning that the pool of degree holders exceeded demand.


The Chinese are capable of vast strategic patience. These are extremely casual insults and Beijing won’t take the bait. If they do, it won’t be limited to Taiwan; better to deepstrike and take the house down instead of just taking the bait.


Sort of a cultural shift. Cremation is normative in Communist China, whereas it’s seen as desecration (unless you’re Buddhist) in traditional Chinese culture.

But the ultra calling for conventional hypersonic strikes into the American mainland; there’s probably a greater spur to gain such capabilities, probably mainly against military targets, if only as deterrence against the Americans thinking they can get away with only sacrificing their East Asian satellites.


It's mostly that they destroyed the body before returning it. It's being being brought up because it's not normal to return bodies in a destroyed state and they suspect that the coast gaurd shot the fishermen, since they've also destroyed the coast guard's video tapes.


Yeah, I had the same suspicions, but consider that Myanmar killed a bunch of Chinese when their artillery flew over the border. Official protest, nothing else.

End of the day, short-term, Zhongnanhai will suppress all details of the incident to avoid an unwanted war. Mid-term, enhance deterrence and counterstrike capabilities against the United States. Long-term, who knows?

Probably another string of sanctions against Taiwan is more likely, though.


Current plan seems to be undermining the ROC control of the waters around Kinmen. CCG running their boats right up to the shore, VBSSing a ferry etc. Assert dominance and take control of the waters.
Same playbook as with the Pelosi visit basically. No need to kick off a hot war yet, but might as well slice the shit out of that salami while the casus belli is still hot.



I wonder if it’s possible to peacefully retake Jinmen and Mazu Islands before focusing on Formosa proper. Jinmen and Mazu aren’t really holdable by Taiwan anyways; too close to the mainland and way too small.


Taiwan wanted to lose those islands because people living there are voting for unification one way or another. It's a big issue for Taiwan


Yes they're fairly easy to take over physically, but they're important to the PRC as physical manifestation of the ROC's legal claim to all China. A legal anchor that ties them back to China, and a reminder to the world that they're not some innocent uwu small bean but the last remnant of an unresolved civil war that has been left frozen by colonialist divide-and-conquer schemes. The West weaponized the ROC's claims for decades as a legal casus belli for their usual regime change + neocolonialism shenanigans when the PRC was weak, but now the PRC is stronger, and leaving the islands (and the claims that they symbolize) in ROC hands actually benefits the PRC more.
In an actual shooting war it's even worse; either the garrison surrenders pretty much immediately or the ROCN has to run supplies to them and get shot to shit on the way in.


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Just as Mao intended. Women hold up half the billionaire list. 🤩


Still too many anglos on the list tbh


I'd have sex with all except the two angloids.


Also that includes the one from India.


About Hurun Inc.

Promoting Entrepreneurship Through Lists and Research

Oxford, Shanghai, Mumbai

Established in the UK in 1999, Hurun is a research, media and investments group, promoting entrepreneurship through its lists and research. Widely regarded as an opinion-leader in the world of business, Hurun generated 8 billion views on the Hurun brand last year, mainly in China and India.

Best-known today for the Hurun Rich List series, telling the stories of the world’s successful entrepreneurs in China, India and the world, Hurun’s other key series is the Hurun Start-up series, ranking the world’s unicorns and future unicorns, as well as giving recognition to young start-up founders.

Hurun has grown to become the world’s largest researcher and list compiler of startups, ranking 4000 startups across the world through its annual Unicorns list (US$1bn+), and two future unicorn lists (Gazelles from US$500mn, and Cheetahs from US$300mn).

For the young start-up founders, Hurun has created the Under30s, Under35s and Under40s awards, representing the cream of young entrepreneurs who have founded businesses with a social impact and worth around US$10mn, US$50mn and US$100mn respectively.

Other lists include the Hurun Global Highschools List, ranking the world’s best independent highschools, the Hurun Philanthropy List, ranking the biggest philanthropists, the Hurun Art List, ranking the world’s most successful artists alive today, etc…

Hurun provides research reports co-branded with some of the world’s leading financial institutions, real estate developers and regional governments.

Hurun hosts high-profile events across China and India, as well as London, Paris, New York, LA, Toronto, Sydney, Luxembourg, Istanbul, Dubai and Singapore.


In other words, yet another Westoid nonsense list which does not actually list Chinese rich people. Do I really need to remind you people about that case https://iz.ru/news/550402

In one of the latest issues of the Russian version of the business magazine Forbes, an article was published on the rights of advertising about a 40-year-old successful St. Petersburg man in the construction business, Sergei Solovyov, however, he himself claims that he works only as a hired manager in a commercial company and did not give any interviews. After reading this article in the magazine, Solovyov's wife accused him of hiding his billions from his family, after which she took their children together and filed for divorce. Solovyov believes that he was the victim of a cruel hoax, so he filed a lawsuit against Forbes to publish a refutation and compensate him for moral damage in 5 million rubles.

Sergey Solovyov, a resident of St. Petersburg, filed a lawsuit for the protection of honor and dignity in the Ostankino District Court of Moscow on the principle of the defendant's territoriality — the Russian editorial office of Forbes and the office of the publisher of the magazine Axel Springer Rush CJSC are located in the VVC area on Dokukina Street.

"In the 2013 issue of Forbes magazine No. 5, there is an article "Portrait of a modern politician", which is supposedly an interview with me and illustrated with my photo. I ask you to oblige me to publish a refutation in the next issue of the magazine and to collect 5 million rubles as compensation for moral damage," the statement said, which was reviewed by Izvestia.

In an article published in Forbes with the note "on the rights of advertising", Sergey Solovyov appears as the owner of a company that builds real estate objects under subcontracts — private houses and cottages. According to the publication, Sergei's "mini-empire" is spread throughout central Russia: Moscow, St. Petersburg, Nizhny Novgorod and Yekaterinburg.

Sergei Solovyov complained that, having learned from the magazine about his "huge business" and "multibillion-dollar income," his wife Elena threw him a scandal, demanding explanations that he hid his earnings from his family. Not satisfied with Solovyov's explanations that the article had no real basis, the woman filed for divorce, demanding to reserve the right to raise children: a nine-year-old son and a seven-year-old daughter.

— Imagine the feeling of my wife: to live so many years in marriage and learn so much about a person that I am almost an underground billionaire, — Sergey Solovyov told Izvestia. — Of course, I'm trying to restore the relationship, but so far without much success.

Sergey said that he himself was shocked when he learned about the published article from his wife's words. He claims that he did not give the interview or the photo to Forbes magazine.

— I am an employee, I work as a commercial director. I am not engaged in construction or any other business," Solovyov added. — This interview is fiction from the first to the last word.

The troubles over the article haunted Solovyov not only in his personal life, but also at work. Colleagues, after reading the interview, began to suspect the man that he was working on the side: taking lucrative contracts to controlled companies or even engaged in industrial espionage.

"In the eyes of my employers, I look like a liar: an unreliable person who does not serve the interests of the company, but a mythical benefit," Sergei's lawsuit says.

Solovyov himself believes that he was the victim of a hoax. He conducted his own investigation and found out that a certain businessman Andrei Mikhailov allegedly contacted Forbes, where he introduced himself as a candidate for deputy Sergei Solovyov. He also wrote a letter to the magazine with a proposal to publish his interview on the rights of advertising, to which the editorial board gave the go-ahead.


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Did you just deny the existence of peoples billionaires in China ?


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Yet again chinlets hating western game for being progressive, while Chinese, Japanese and Korean games sexual objectified underage characters. Why Easterner devs think about penis hard all the time?


Characters across the western media are gross. Both design and writing.


> In Genshin Impact, there are arguments condemning the newest character as the "black stockings little boy."
What does this mean?


Yes, and I will do it again and again until you fucks learn about Westoids lying to you about China


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I think he means this one


Your biweekly dose of schizophrenia. Yes, even "doctor" fucking Phil, the pedo sex pest, is China freamongering.

Americans WILL be sent to die in Philippines and Taiwan the moment Trump gets into office lmao


The maga Republicans are anti-war in relation to the rest.
the democrats did this last decade. 🙄


And yet Lindsey Graham, Max Miller, Nicky Haley, etc. Are all trumpfags.
You're a moron.


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Republicans are anti-Ukraine war. They are pro-China war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzEc5GbSbIU


>Nikki haley is a "trumpfag"
You're a moron.
There is no China war. There will be no China war.


behold, the last hope for socialism
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH humanity is fucked


China isn't the last hope for -your- nation's socialism. You have to achieve that by yourself.


<no u
All these trumpfags have been jumping over each other to aid in the zionists genocide
Fuck off you mobility scooter in waiting cunt.


uhh…based groomer discourse?


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Gacha gamers treat objects like women, man.


So people brought all these luxury items using magic ? Even sate media confirmed the report : https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202105/1223872.shtml

stop being in denial lmao


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>Chinese, Japanese and Korean games sexual objectified underage characters
… and that's a good thing.


>a reminder to the world that they're not some innocent uwu small bean but the last remnant of an unresolved civil war that has been left frozen by colonialist divide-and-conquer schemes.
The separation of Taiwan from the rest of China did not begin in 1949 but six decades before, when Taiwan became a colony of Japan. This isn't just the ending of a civil war, it is undoing another legacy of colonialism.


>specialists and top managers can't buy luxury cars

You've never heard about Stakhanovites, have you?

>Even sate media confirmed

Oh no, not the STATE MEDIA! After all, every state media journo has a personal commissar assigned to them, and a squad of fact checkers and researchers


How long did it take for you to come up with these cope ?


>… and that's a good thing.
Maybe, if you were a shina offspring otaku.


NTA but I guess money doesn't exist in China as well. That's also 'fake news' that right?


>money doesn't exist in China

…do you think that rich people keep their money as paper or in banks and not invested into something? You know that those Forbes-like lists are based off asset evaluations, which are incredibly fake by the merit of evaluation done by according to who knows what, probably the last sale price, and leads to Forbes' lists such as this https://www.forbes.com/30-under-30/2023/ to contain at least 50% scammers who are going to jail in the nearest future for financial fraud?





Stop writing “lmao” in every post.


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>no billionaires in China
>Its all fake
>even the state media is wrong
>I know more than Chinese state
>all the luxury villas, mansions, cars and assets of billionaires in China is bcuz they are a bunch of good ol Stakhanovites
uygha has lost the plot


>Chinese state media put that reported on billionaires in China by mistake due to lack of factcheckers
>dengist uygha in this thread to Chinese state media :


>A survivor of China’s Cultural Revolution said the radicalization of America's youth makes her feel like she's "seeing history repeat itself" and is reminded of the indoctrination she faced as a child.

>"The identity politics, oppressor versus oppressed, the struggle sessions and trying to destroy nuclear families, turn kids against their parents — it all happened before. It's similar tactics," Lily Tang Williams, a Republican running for Congress in New Hampshire’s second district, told Fox News


>destroy nuclear families
Who's gonna tell her that "nuclear families" is what destroyed actual families.


It's bizarre how desperate Americans are to find reasons to hate China.


File: 1708628872267.jpeg (38.25 KB, 640x606, tank selfie.jpeg)

my reaction to this information


did her father own all the eggs in China?


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To my perfectly valid argument about Forbes-like lists of rich folks including 50% of scammers and criminals you guys respond with "hurrdurr but Chinese state media quoted them!"

So fucking what? Does Chinese state media quoting those lists make my argument invalid or something? Does this mean that those 50% weren't scammers?


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>Running in NH-2
Can't bust the Kust


x marks the spot


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ATLA was and is a #FreeTibet psyop and I'm tired of pretending it isn't. It was in vogue for Americans in the 00s to whine on behalf of right wing tibetan buddhist nationalists and buy into their xinjiang-tier propaganda about how removing the dalai llama theocratic government from power and freeing the slaves in tibet was a genocide of tibetan culture. ATLA coded the evil fire nation as chinese and coded the peaceful air nomads as tibetan buddhists who got "Genocided". you can even see glowie think tank articles that try to frame this as an anti-colonialist discussion.


porky loves to have it both ways. when poor people reproduce the rich become malthusians. But when poor people don't reproduce enough to provide labor power, the rich call for the poor to be fruitful and multiply.


I am prescribing you 100mg of touched grass daily for your apophenia


Ahahaha the anti communist drifters devour their own gift horses.


Like seriously, this is chickens coming home to roost. It was mind boggling to me how internet liberals were okay with Hong Kongers and Taiwanese being extremely pro Trump to "le own the CCP" but now that Mainland dissidents and likely other migrants move over and keep espousing rightoid shit they're gonna freak.


>they're not connected
tell that to the glowie NGOs penning thinkpieces about it


>TLA coded the evil fire nation as chinese
No they didn't, they were coded as Japanese. The Earth Kingdom was coded as Chinese and they were (mostly) the good guys.


Here is an incredible clip on what's going on in China right now by CNBC. Sometimes the least propagandized places of all are the Western business networks and financial news because those people need somewhat accurate news to do their jobs.

The head of British asset-management firm based in Hong Kong explains that:

-The Chinese gov doesn't care about the stock market that much , i. e. it's not as relevant for the make-up of the Chinese economy.

-The bankruptcies in the real estate sector are controlled and announced demolitions inciated by the central government, not to limit real estate investment per se but speculation.

-The Chinese government is, contrary to Western governments, actually based on centering its financial sector around pensions, savings and long-term investment and not speculation and it doesn't care about the clamor of speculators asking to be bailed out.


Also funny how he straight-up says that:

>'contrary to what we believed they didn't subscribe to the Washington consensus and didn't privatize their economy to allow for highly-profitable monopolies that could do massive rent-extraction.'



I love this channel.

Youtube started putting this stuff in my shorts feed suspiciously randomly lol


Newfag that channel is literally run by a cult. Don't post their shit here


I know.
I enjoy the hysterical schizo vibes emanating from it though.

Especially the comments complaining about a styrofoam house. Must be europeans.


what if falun gong is funded by the chinese government to make the opposition look bad


i think there were another incarnation of the avatar that was also japanese


The avatar gets reincarnated in a different nation each time they die, so they've lived as all of them.


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>didn't privatize their economy

But Westoid leftists keep telling me that Deng abandoned socialism for capitalism, and that capitalism is responsible for China's breaking out of poverty??? I mean, it was weird and all that leftists would say that capitalism saved China where socialism couldn't, and it also goes against Marxism, but really, they all can't be WRONG and BRAINWASHED, right? RIGHT???


yeah I dont get the privitization argument. Even if you account for the contacting household system, the growth of the private sector and the sez, there really wasnt an attempt to privatize chinas strategic industries, banking sector and overall economic control.


i meant that there was another faction that should have been the analog of japan


>there really wasnt an attempt to privatize chinas strategic industries, banking sector and overall economic control.
I've read that they introduced profitability as a goal in SOEs, but that was also a thing during the NEP in the Soviet Union. And then you could say, well that sounds like state capitalism, but even saying that doesn't imply much of an argument against it.


yeah exactly, this


What, you think SOEs don't need to count their money and don't need to try and optimize their expenditures? Are you implying that socialism is when inefficient and without regards for the cost? This is the dumbest argument ever.



Communist Cina is not state capitalist. Communist China is market socialist. Communist China is not capitalist, as production is not in order to produce and maximize profit of capitalists, but to meet the needs of the People and to develop the productive forces of mankind.


In the USSR profitability wasn't a metric of success for state industry until the Kosygin reforms.


It was under Stalin. Kosygin's reform was a reform of autonomy, so directors had more power, and Kosygin just renamed already existing metrics into something else to justify autonomization. Also, GOSPLAN got defanged, so that it couldn't control the Plan getting fulfilled, only to give glorified recommendations with little to no punishment for failing the Plan

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