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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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File: 1608680964250.png (23.67 KB, 973x819, PRC.png)

 No.211384[Last 50 Posts]

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 No.233955

>>233594
>>233781
Chuang glows with the light of a thousands suns. Their resources page is a cornucopia of confirmed NED fronts, alongside HK and Taiwanese think tanks. Spreading their words is spreading CIA propaganda, and should be banned.

Does it not concern you at all that your position puts you among the ranks of imperialists, traitors, and reactionaries? It is shameful for a communist to be supporting an imperialist line.
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 No.234057

>>233912
<Orangetext on red background
My eyes are bleeding
>>

 No.234061

>>233955
Idk if it glows like the sun but for sure they showed more than one red flag (the bad ones)
>>

 No.234073

>>233955
I've never read anything by Chuang, I was mainly referring to Cheng Enfu's work on the currents of thought in the CPC.
>>

 No.234078

>>233955
>Chuang glows with the light of a thousands suns
Why? Because they had one grifter? Because they quoted Zenz in an article about the topic of Xinjang?(you know first hand sources make for better journalism)
>Their resources page is a cornucopia of confirmed NED fronts
Confirmed by whom? Twitter dengoids?
>Spreading their words is spreading CIA propaganda, and should be banned
Stfu you pathetic loser. You are such a dogmatic piece of trash that any actual discussion is impossible with the likes of you. Everyone is a fucking glowie with you. The article posted, was an interview with a chinese person and not their own opinion piece. Even so forget Chuang and concentrate on Chengs article? Have you even read it? Ofcourse not, because then you wouldn't call him a glowie. He is the head of the chinese academy of marxism. If he is a glowie despite that, then I'm tipping my hat off him. I swear dengoid get dumber and dumber with time
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 No.234083

>>234078
>Because they quoted Zenz in an article about the topic of Xinjang?(you know first hand sources make for better journalism)
>>

 No.234089

>>233864
Dude the media is going crazy about this rocket and it's hilarious because this is essentially the norm and the risk with these tests. What kind of retarded cold war is this?
>>

 No.234098

>>234083
If I want to report about Xinjang then I'll make sure to quote the retard first hand so I don't misquote or take him out of context. That too dificult to understand?
>>

 No.234104

>>234098
What was the context of them quoting Zenz?
>>

 No.234122

>>234104
They quoted him two times:
1. concerning categories of assesment
2. numbers of new police forces employed to xinjang

Semi-glows. If the categories and numbers are confirmed then still odd, but legit. If not, then I think the article in question is glow. It was also written by the infamous grifter. The question is wether we should judge Chuang based on this one incident. We don't know how the site is structured and what requirements you need for writing.
>>

 No.234295

>>233267
ok so why did they only send 300 planes and nothing else to korea? after asking mao to engage? we would have easily won with soviet support

it looks pretty fucked up
>>

 No.234411

>>233594
>Xi has purged leftists such as Bo Xilai
I'm not so sure Bo Xilai was actually a leftist, even though he did some good things. Even in the interview you linked Lao Xie includes him among "right-wing conservatives" and this doesn't seem merely relative, given how he describes conservatism in China:
>The second model for change advocated by many of these mid-scale capitalists is:
>2) Conservatism, meaning the revival of traditional culture: increasing men’s rights over women, outlawing divorce, legalizing domestic violence and filicide, establishing a stricter hierarchy in society – for example requiring students of lower grades to bow to those of higher grades, as in Japan and Korea a few decades ago. Reviving something like China’s traditional caste system: if you’re a peasant then your children can only ever be peasants. An extreme position in this spectrum is advocating the restoration of monarchy.
>In a broad sense, such conservatism includes Bo Xilai,[1] who was a “celebrity politician” like Modi or Trump, using personal charisma. Although Bo mobilized popular support around the claim to be restoring socialism, actually he is better understood as a right-wing conservative.
Sounds more like Bo seemed appealing to the reformists among the left, but his own overall interests were elsewhere.

>>234122
I've been called a CPC shill a couple of times itt, and I didn't find anything suspicious in that interview. The guy that's interviewed is too critical of pro-Western "leftists" and those in Hong Kong to be a glowie IMO.
>>

 No.234552

>>234411
>Sounds more like Bo seemed appealing to the reformists among the left, but his own overall interests were elsewhere
It looks like it now, but a lot of Leftists were giving him his support to him back in the day.
>I've been called a CPC shill a couple of times itt, and I didn't find anything suspicious in that interview
I know. Chuang sometimes pushes out articles that are a bit over the top ultra-leftist or even lightly glowing, but they also write article or make interviews with persons that are highly critical of hongkong, western leftists and anyone wanting to move away from democratic centralism. It just takes some distance and nuance to really get the most out of their articles
>>

 No.234616

>>234078
You're being dishonest. The CIA funding of Chuang is unrelated to whether or not they are interviewing actual Chinese Marxists, CPC approved or otherwise. The fact the there might exist good content in Chuang does not mean we can let are guard down and accept their writings uncritically.
>>

 No.234617

>>234078
>Everyone is a fucking glowie with you.
No, just glowuyghur wreckers.
>>

 No.234625

>>234616
I think the point is more that despite their dumb articles sometimes, they are very unlikely glowies. They are more somethubg akin to endnotes
>>234617
What an answer
>>

 No.234667

THE CHINESE HAVE LAUNCHED A ROCKET INTO SPACE WERE ALL GOING TO DIE. REPENT. REPENT. THESE CHINESE SHOULDNT GO TO SPACE BECAUSE WE REPRESENT FREEDOM
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 No.234689

>>

 No.234696

>>234689
>Eagle is a police
Lmao wtf does that even mean. Also aren't dragons seen as benevolent and friendly in most Asian countries?
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 No.234713

>>234078
Grifter is such a cute word for a professional regime-change activist from the Kissinger institute. As the other anon said, Chuang glows a lot. A supposed anonymous collective, of which we have never seen a face or gotten a name, of supposed "Chinese Marxists" with a super slick website.
>>

 No.234721

So why is it that angloid media hasn't manufactured a shitton of Chinese defector stories? I know the uyghur shit has been the focus for some years now but I would assume they would probably expand to new propaganda horizons soon. All things considered the uyghur ""genocide"" shit is dying down.
>>

 No.234729

>>234721
It might have something to do with the fact that the porkies and porklets who normally become gusanos actually support the CPC.
>>

 No.234736

>>234721
There are some, I think Australia has been most productive in the China defector industry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdR-I35Ladk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDkC1ZMFBCg
>>

 No.234741

>>234689
Top political analysis!
>>

 No.234755

>>234721
Because it would quickly trigger a response by normal Chinese people debunking whatever those defectors say. China isn't like the DPRK, if someone said Xi bans specific haircuts you would have thousands of Chinese making fun of it on Chinese social media by making photos of hair saloons which would eventually transpire to the Western internet. The West has a giant problem as China is a very open country, there is no Iron Curtain, you can't just make up shit. If you check YouTube, there are dozens of vloggers who record videos from Xinjiang or even from inside vocational schools (the supposed "concentration camps). Daniel Dumbrill interviewed a guy from who graduated from those exact "camps" which are literally the ones the West is claiming are carrying out genocide.

Also, they do use all kinds of Uyghurs for their stories. And they also platform all those HK people.

>>234729
Oh fuck off, there are Chinese gusanos. Remember the guy the GOP presented at their convention?
>>

 No.234756

>>234755
>Oh fuck off, there are Chinese gusanos.
Aren't a lot of them literal Triad bosses though? At least as far as Han mainlanders are concerned. As you said, Honkies and Uyghurs are a different story.
>>

 No.234762

>>234721
The uyghurs had that. You can't do that with the rest of China because the usual suspects (lumpen, bourgeois remnants, burgeoning petite bourgeoisie) have little bone to pick with the government.
>>

 No.234769

>>234762
The proletariat also seems to have no bone to pick with the Chinese government. The CPC is just immensely popular, according to multiple studies it's the most supported government in the world by its own people, there are no large swaths of discontent like with Venezuela where most people think of their government as the lesser evil because the opposition is a literal joke.
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 No.234771

>>234769
The benefits of a high rate of profit. The same was largely true in the West 70 years ago.
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 No.234789

File: 1620603284694.mp4 (12.85 MB, 1280x720, Based Gramps.mp4)

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 No.234795

File: 1620603536675.png (19.18 KB, 535x388, 1618292084103.png)

>be China
>have a single ruling communist party
>live rent free in "Western Marxist" heads
>bring about immense prosperity
>have 5 years plans like Stalin did
>still be Marxist in 2021, lol
<Western Cuckolds still REEEEE about this shit
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 No.234799

File: 1620603779027.png (73.61 KB, 507x621, 1.png)

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 No.234800

File: 1620603854027.jpg (150.03 KB, 1124x1219, rruympd6b4y61.jpg)

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 No.234802

>>234795
they are merely pretending to be Marxists just to placate Western left-radicals
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 No.234804

>>234802
> just to placate Western left-radicals
< Chinese Baizou Party
this has to be a joke
>>

 No.234813

File: 1620604596898.jpg (49.56 KB, 820x768, 8d264efb070225face2ca232af….jpg)

I am increasingly seeing the Western media using the term "Wolf Warrior Diplomacy", which they created, to depict Chinese diplomacy negatively.

I wanted to point out that this term is an example of gaslighting, designed to smear + defame 1. the movie Wolf Warrior 2 and the Chinese value it stands for, as well as 2. China's diplomatic policies.

First, why I say it is gaslighting.

The Western media coined the term "Wolf Warrior Diplomacy" and persists to use it with a negative and criticizing connotation. They did this despite the fact that Wolf Warrior 2 was the best-selling movie in the history Chinese theater and is a cultural symbol associated with positive emotions.

Now, by consistently using the term "Wolf Warrior Diplomacy" in an emotionally negative way, the powerful machine of Western media begins to bend the reality:

At first, you laugh at it: "Haha, what do you mean, Wolf Warrior Diplomacy? The Wolf Warrior is such a good movie, that must be a praise on China's diplomacy!"

A few months later: "Huh, why do I always see the words Wolf Warrior Diplomacy used negatively? Is there something I am missing?" (FOMO kicks in)

A few years later: "I don't really recall what was Wolf Warrior 2 really about… I seem to remember it as something positive… But since the media constantly use it in a bad way… It must be bad, and I must be the crazy one… right?…" → And now, you have been gaslighted.

Let me be clear: China's diplomacy is not "aggressive" or "bullying". China operates in a pattern that respects the international order with the UN framework as its cornerstone.

Second, why they need to defame the movie Wolf Warrior 2?

Consider what actually happened in Wolf Warrior 2:

>Leng Feng, the protagonist, did not gain his super power after radiation poisoning or insect bite. Rather, he was trained in the PLA for it.


>Leng Feng and his friends were engaged in actually helping people in underdeveloped areas in Africa, economically, and not pushing color revolution.


>Leng Feng did not conduct the operation to free the prisoner Chinese/African civilians by himself. Rather, he relied on the help of other main characters, and the PLA Navy patrolling the area.


>Most unthinkably for the American value: The PLAN ship obtained UN authorization before launching missiles to destroy the mercenary group, instead of unilaterally accuse, trial, and execute who they deem to be "bad guys".


As you can see, the value at the core of "Wolf Warrior" are Chinese patriotism, collectivism, and the mindset to collaborate with others while respecting differences (instead of forcing others to be 100% like me).

They just can't afford to have people actually learning what "Wolf Warrior" was promoting.
>>

 No.234824

>>234804
>CPC is White Left
lol, get a life
>>

 No.234854

>>234813
>Chinese patriotism
cringe
>>

 No.234874

File: 1620606733184.mp4 (Spoiler Image, 6.66 MB, 1280x720, Mg4PH7eG-L1oGOmU.mp4)

>>234854
>cringe
>>

 No.235105

>>234813
ok anon you convinced me to watch Wolf Warrior 2 it sounds based af
>>

 No.235288

>>234295
Because direct USSR-USA engagement would have led to WW3, I assume. Also, logistics.
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 No.235299

>>234713
Just look at the manner they are writing in. It says it all. If you've read so much russian 90's drivel as I have you would see this glowing from miles away. Incessant appeal to pity, exaggerations, hearsay instead of proofs, "even communists/chinese themselves", hysterical tone, etc. It's all glowing. Especially - appeal to pity.
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 No.235303

File: 1620619525534-0.jpeg (393.65 KB, 1024x889, ChinaPovertyRedefining.jpeg)

File: 1620619525534-1.png (98.01 KB, 749x487, ChinaInvestmentRateReturn.png)

>>234771
Lolno, benefits of socialism. China's rate of profit is steadily declining.
>>

 No.235350

>>234854
there's not a single fucking thing wrong with patriotism
<patriotism =/= nationalism
@me if you read a book

t. Marxist
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 No.235352

>>235303
Who implied otherwise, again?
>>

 No.235462

>>235350
>muh patriotism ain't nationalism
The absolute state of dengoids
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 No.235466

>>235350
nationalism is patriotism in concrete political form. and there's nothing wrong with it. read measheimer.
>>

 No.235475

>>235462
>the akshual state of ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

Ikr? Fucking "dengoids" made up this dictionary shit. Fuck 'em, fucking authoritarians n' shiet.
>>

 No.235476

>>234713
>with a super slick website
Literally just endnotes copied, but point to the glow please in the interview with Lao Xie.
>>235299
>If you've read so much russian 90's drivel as I have you would see this glowing from miles away
Doesn't sound like you have proofs, but are really wanting them to be glowies. If you say that every article glows, then you better show some evidence.
>>

 No.235478

>>235466
>nationalism is patriotism
literally not true outside of burgerstan

Fucking Hugo Chavez was a patriot without ever being a nationalist.

read a single fucking book in your entire life you dirty miserable anglo
>>

 No.235490

>>235475
>gives me definitions like a true anglo
m8 you can't keep patriotism in its pure "form" with people. It always devolves into nationalism. Your wikipedia articles don't change that. Get rid of your petty-bourgeois sentiments please
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 No.235491

>>235478
Yes it is.

t. eastern euro
>>

 No.235493

>>235478
>selective quoting
i accept your concession
>>

 No.235494

>>

 No.235495

>>235303
>China's rate of profit is steadily declining.
Surely this will not produce any problems in the future.
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 No.235496

File: 1620626732887.jpg (8.83 KB, 259x194, 2c347fbf4e50ef457113bd4f5e….jpg)

>>

 No.235497

>>235490
words having meaning is fascism, tbh
>>

 No.235498

>>235494
>reduced to one word meme answer
aaah another victory for me in the battle of ideas
>>

 No.235504

>>235497
Cute, he tries to deflect. Nobody gives a fuck if its called Socialist Patriotism or Civic Nationalism, because this abstract love of ones homeland will always spiral into reactionary behaviour.
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 No.235506

>>235504 (you)
>>

 No.235509

>>235495
is there a sort of capital destruction that doesn't involve war that can work here? like a lot of capital is just over valued real estate, can they just reprice that shit or tilt the market to wipe out a lot of fictitious capital?
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 No.235510

File: 1620627166759.gif (45.44 KB, 314x250, c78ac50f34b0fd5b5f7da25862….gif)

>>235506
>my support for patriotism stems from reading books
Anglo why don't you…you know, make an argument instead of being a petty cunt?
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 No.235512

>>235504
doesn't really matter. it's proven to be one of the most potent and durable ideologies ever, and it's not going anywhere. you need to accept that. try being a realist.
>>

 No.235515

>>235504
>will always
I only need one counter example and some anon already mentioned Venezuela. You might want to walk back your argument to "has a tendency".
>>

 No.235516

>>235495
State enterprise was and is outcompeting private enterprise in China. Any sector with state property in is dominated by state property. Falling rate of profit == "fair" nationalization in China.
>>

 No.235518

>>235476
>Doesn't sound like you have proofs, but are really wanting them to be glowies.

I've shown my reasoning. Glowies CAN be found out by analyzing the way they write stuff for maximum emotional attack.
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 No.235520

>>235512
Garbage, the answer is far simpler
There are many ways to be a nationalist, but the only way one can be a patriot is to be a communist
>>235495
I fail to see the problem here, cf above
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 No.235523

File: 1620627636317.jpg (257.9 KB, 853x1200, 8488f5e8a8a5649094ce7f2154….jpg)

>>235512
>doesn't really matter
Shut up. Only a sheltered spastic like you thinks this "ideology" is actually good for anyone. Fuck nationalism, patriotism and anyone thinking it can be sustained for a long period of time in a socialist state.
>>235515
Have you been to venezuela? Do you have proof that reactionary sentiments relating to patriotism, don't exist there? Why are anons on a communist board even arguing in favor of "patriotism"? Is this place really only inhabited by anglos
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 No.235526

>>235518
>Glowies CAN be found out by analyzing the way they write stuff for maximum emotional attack
Have you read all their stuff?
>>

 No.235529

>>235526
The Chuan article on martial arts was 100% nostalgia for a lost past.
>>

 No.235530

>>235520
>I fail to see the problem here
You fail to se the problem of a falling rate of profit?
>>

 No.235533

>>235520
>but the only way one can be a patriot is to be a communist
This is just twisting words. Patriotism, Nationalism etc. and how it was used in the former Eastern Bloc. This is what we are talking about right now
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 No.235542

>>235529
I fail to see the problem with the article that was interviewing Lao Xie. Why was this glowie? How are their articles tackling the online right wing in china glowie? They have a lot of stuff written and by multiple authors. To classify everthing as glowie, you have to read every single one of them and see these patterns that you are observing. Have you done that is the question?
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 No.235550

>>235523
only a sheltered spastic like you would think crying on an imageboard about probably the most powerful ideology in history is an intelligent thing to do
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 No.235565

File: 1620628504749.gif (3.68 MB, 426x213, 0d6c3d84835c7487679c6b28c1….gif)

>>235550
>probably the most powerful ideology in history
I don't see its power. Its irrelevant and has only been useful for statebuilding for a short period of time. The fact that a communist is really here trying to defend it and calls it more "powerful" than idk marxism, makes me scratch my head a bit
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 No.235570

>>235542
Not that anon but I only read the articles that interest me, like the one on HK protests. Chuan gave platform to and wrote favorably of anti-CPC left/anarchist elements in HK. This means some Chuan authors reject the CPC line and democratic centralism. Criticism of the CPC is only legitimate if done directly in the face of the CPC, something that serious Marxist scholars like Michael Hudson and David Harvey have done. Making criticism in a foreign language journal aimed at leftists overseas is unproductive and calls into question their motivations. I will say that on certain political topics, like HK, Chuan are wreckers at best.
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 No.235580

>>235565
This is like saying capitalism is not the most powerful economic system in history because it has only existed for 250 years. Feudalism must be a much more powerful economic structure, having lasted for at least 1000 years.
>>

 No.235582

>>235510
Make an argument about patriotism not being (or at the very least not being reducible to) nationalism?

Dunno where you from, but where I'm from words have lived meaning.
>>

 No.235585

>>235565
I guess China is revving up the nationalist ideology for no reason. I guess Stalin calling it the great patriotic war was just for no reason? People will die for their country in their millions, what else would they do that for?
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 No.235586

File: 1620628961581.png (109.54 KB, 818x670, 3289.png)

>>235520
>There are many ways to be a nationalist, but the only way one can be a patriot is to be a communist
dis
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 No.235587

>>235570
I can accept that. Like I said, they try to copy the left-com style of endnotes, which results in a lot of articles being very friendly to ultra-leftist forces. But the original point of dispute was that anons talked about the political landscape in china and besides the article by cheng, they also posted the interview done with Lao Xie by chuang. And nothing in this interview atleast indicates that they are glowies.
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 No.235590

>>235542
https://chuangcn.org/journal/two/an-adequate-state/

>Members of Chuǎng have been living in and travelling throughout mainland China since the late 1980s. In addition to trying to understand the dominant trends of capitalist development and struggles within mainland society as a whole, we’ve also of course been on the lookout for people who share political perspectives with our own. Over much of this timespan, the results have been sparse. We’ve met a handful of anarchists, but their interest in society has generally been limited to informal conversations, the realm of art and its attendant subcultures, and occasional acts of protest. We’ve also met a few remnants of the Cultural Revolution’s “ultra-left” who either became liberals or continue trying to justify their anti-state positions among more mainstream Maoists by citing exceptional quotations from the Great Helmsman, rather than examining the structures and struggles of the present. But in recent years, this situation has undergone a subtle change.


They are outright saying that they look for trotskyists and that they have a lot of trouble finding them.

>Most of these activists have since moved on to the lifestyles expected of university graduates, at most occasionally participating in online discussions. Others have undertaken the “long march through the institutions,” becoming academics or social workers. Only a handful continued trying to participate directly in class struggle, investigate its changing terrain, learn about history and develop their theory in conversation with small groups they’ve maintained over the years.


Close groups, careerism, all the glowing shit.
>>

 No.235592

>>235590
>Only a handful continued trying to participate directly in class struggle,
I like how the author claims he is the arbiter of class struggle. Arrogance and ignorance go together.
>>

 No.235600

>>235580
I didn't make the statement, so why you asking me?
>>235582
The supposed distinction is so small that any apllication in real life leads to a "muddling the waters" scenario where people are not seeing any difference of both concepts. You can see this throughout eastern europe, my country included.
>>235585
>I guess China is revving up the nationalist ideology for no reason
You are starting from assumptions anon, that I necessarily don't agree with
>I guess Stalin calling it the great patriotic war was just for no reason
Calling for international solidarity with the german working class in times of war? Stalin implemented this as a temporary situation, you know? You can't make away the remnants of old society as we know. Tsarist russian chauvinism and marxist internationalism took a weird hybrid in this war and as we see now in russia, all those brave soldiers have no problem watching the victory parade in a country that distorts communist iconography
>People will die for their country in their millions, what else would they do that for?
Anon are you for real? In WW1, people were eager to join the war, but as soon when they were in the trenches, they regretted it. The USSR, won despite of nationalist sentiments and not because of it.
>>

 No.235602

>>235590
But Lao Xie openly shits on Trotskyists and Anarchists?
>>

 No.235610

>>235590
>The title we’ve chosen refers specifically to Lao Xie’s theory that the Xi Jinping regime is fundamentally characterized by the project of building a bourgeois state adequate to the task of governing capitalist society for many years into the future—in contrast with previous regimes (from Deng Xiaoping to Hu Jintao), which “provisionally” made do with the remnants of socialist-era institutions for short-sighted aims.

Haha, what's this? Do you mean YOU WANT TO SEPARATE MARXIST CONTINUITY, ATTACK XI WITH DENG, AND THEN DENG WITH MAO, AND THEN MAO WITH STALIN and so on and so forth? It's trot shit, like in 1930s - when Trotsky and his bedfellows were claiming that USSR was already a capitalist state (or state capitalist, or bureaucratic, or whatever).

>The group at the core of China’s ruling class has clearly expressed its intention to continue monopolizing state power into the foreseeable future, determining that its contradictions with other fractions of the class cannot be smoothly worked out through the principles of “political pluralism.” At the same time, this group is actively attempting to learn from the old capitalist world. And like the rest of that world, China is entering a period of retreat from “globalization.” International interests are being reorganized.


Wow, MLs don't want to cede any state power to anyone! Truly totalitarian nightmare. Also, note how his 2017 projection into the future wasn't accurate at all - there's no retreat from globalization for China.

>LX: The bourgeoisie is becoming increasingly organized. They have social clubs and business associations that sometimes display political features. For example the Taishan Club (泰山会) is a small club of major figures in industrial-commercial circles. Zhenghe Island (正和岛) is another one. A researcher at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences published an article about these organizations.


Again, wrong prediction - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3121647/sun-sets-chinas-billionaire-taishan-club-communist-party-takes

>LX: Those parties are just independent projects by small groups of people without any social basis, and they don’t represent any particular class interests. They’re marginal.


Riiiiight, capitalists discussing stuff behind the closing doors has no class interest whatsoever.

I'll skip stuff about leftists because too much > will be needed. It's glowing a lot there as well, though. Basically - everyone on left and right were supporting Bo Xilai.

>LX: In labor circles, most people with a political perspective are left-wing social democrats, likewise pointing to Scandinavia as a model. Most labor NGO staff don’t have any coherent political perspective at all – it’s just a job for them, and at most a way to feel good about helping the downtrodden, but they take the system for granted and don’t advocate any kind of systemic social or political change.


>Almost all NGOs based in Hong Kong, on the other hand, have political positions, and they’re almost all left-leaning. But often these positions are mere performances used for professional purposes. Most of their staff don’t really believe in the positions they present to the public. Political performance is just part of their job. Many of these NGOs’ directors became politicized in Hong Kong’s youth radicalization movement of the 1970s. At that time, they believed in their politics, but now it’s just a show, a business model. For example, in order to get money from funders and to get support from the international media, from the European left – not only money but also spiritual support….


Mainland NGOs can't do anything, but HK NGOs are the real left! And they get support from overseas… Not glowing yet?

>LX: The biggest problem with Maoists is that they’ve given up on class struggle. Even the pro-revolutionary left-wing Maoists have given up on class struggle. Lenin said, “A person who recognizes the necessity of class struggle but not the necessity of revolution cannot be called a socialist.” But today’s Chinese Maoists are even worse: they’re not mature enough to be clear about who they are and what they want. What they call “revolution” is just abstract radicalism. I’m worried that there might be seedlings of fascism in this sort of radicalism. I heard that in Russia, some people who were Stalinists and Trotskyists in the 1990s have ended up becoming fascists over the past few years. And I see that possibility here among some of these Maoists, but not yet.


Reminder that Cultural Revolution was a class struggle against rightists. And it was destroying the country, letting ultra-leftist reactionaries get onto the top.

Well, I proved my point to myself, so I give up commenting.
>>

 No.235616

>>235602
Trotskyists killed Trotsky, so they too shit up on themselves. No, what I meant by trots is the ultra-leftist opposition to the working class Party line. It can vary greatly from wanting to nationalize everything (from the working class and peasantry) to do class struggle against nonexistant rightists.
>>

 No.235618

>>235610
>闯: But you say these aren’t parties exactly, and none of the underground parties are important – neither the democracy parties nor the left-leaning ones, such as the pro-Bo Xilai “Constitutionalist Party”?
<LX: Those parties are just independent projects by small groups of people without any social basis, and they don’t represent any particular class interests. They’re marginal.

He was not talking about the Capitalists
>>

 No.235620

>>235610
>And it was destroying the country, letting ultra-leftist reactionaries get onto the top
The struggle against rightists was the correct take though?
>>

 No.235627

>>235610
It has been said before, but they are copying Endnotes, which is a left-com(ish) journal. So the question must be asked how exactly they are glowies, rather than just the standard left-coms.
>>

 No.235630

>>235618
Ah, sorry. Skipped two lines because was switching behind tabs.

>>235620
No, revisionists/khruschevites are (ultra-)leftists. They are the continuity from the people repressed and not yet repressed from 1930s to 1950s. Back then Stalin was fighting leftists. Admittedly, those were trotskyite-rightist blocs, but rightists were outside the Party while trots were inside, so…

>>235627
Well, you won't get any concrete proof of anyone being a glowie. Chuang posted glowie authors, and here chuang was admitting to be searching for left-coms since 1980s.
>>

 No.235638

>>235630
>No, revisionists/khruschevites are (ultra-)leftists. They are the continuity from the people repressed and not yet repressed from 1930s to 1950s. Back then Stalin was fighting leftists. Admittedly, those were trotskyite-rightist blocs, but rightists were outside the Party while trots were inside, so…
Seems like you are switching terms. Revisionists like Krushchev are the ultra-leftists, and trotskyists are the rightists now.
>>

 No.235668

>>235638
No, trotkyite-rightist bloc is a bloc between trotskyists and rightists. Sorry if there's my fault in explaining it. Moscow Trials labelled them as such. Nationalists of all kinds, military specialists and officers, various officials, leftist Party members - that kind of cooperation.

>>235610
Fuck, I didn't want to continue, but look at this

>闯: In a previous conversation you mentioned that these changes actually started before 2012, for example with the local policy experiments of Bo Xilai and Qiu He[11] which the Xi regime later adopted while throwing their authors into prison. Were these the earliest manifestations of the coming changes?


Bo Xilai and Qiu He are doing stuff, and authors portray it as if CPC stole their ideas. Then:

>LX: Qiu He has been called “China’s Pinochet,” since his experiments included neoliberal reforms. For example he sold off local schools, hospitals and SOEs to private investors. But that was about the extent of his neoliberalism. His other reforms were similar to those of Bo Xilai, just on a smaller scale. For example he tried to increase administrative efficiency through top-down pressure on state employees, including selective crackdowns on corruption. He also invested state funding heavily into the improvement of basic infrastructure—roads, water, electricity, etc. This differed somewhat from Bo’s infrastructure projects in that Qiu’s projects were focused exclusively on attracting private investors, which he successfully did, to some extent: a few companies came and opened factories in Kunming while Qiu was in office.


>Bo’s experiments in Chongqing were similar to Qiu’s in their focus on increasing administrative efficiency, selectively cracking down on corruption, improving infrastructure, and attracting private investors. But this was all done on a much grander scale, not only because Chongqing is a provincial-level municipality, but also because Bo was allied with Chen Yuan, son of Chen Yun[12] and head of the China Development Bank, so he had a basically unlimited line of credit for large-scale loans.


Then there's a lot of text about Bo's "crackdown on corruption"

>But the other side of Bo’s housing experiment was the privatization of land, where the government took ruralites’ land in exchange for “land tickets” (地票) and forced them into high-rise apartments. I haven’t heard of any collective resistance to this, but it was the only sphere where the Chongqing Model promoted privatization. In contrast with Qiu He, Bo didn’t privatize schools, hospitals or SOEs.


Resulting in

>LX: All of these policies I’ve just listed were adopted except, on the one hand, the central leaders abandoned Qiu He’s strategy of complete marketization, while on the other, they also rejected Bo’s strategy of trying to placate the masses through measures such as building public housing. Indeed, Chairman Xi’s policy has been to actually prop up housing prices. But more generally, the state could simply not afford such spending to placate the poor on a nationwide scale. Bo was able to do that because it was just one city and he had an unlimited line of credit. Finally, the Xi regime also hasn’t imitated Bo’s crackdown on organized crime as such, again because it would be hard to do that on a nationwide scale, but also because the relevant aspects of that crackdown are already included in Xi’s anti-corruption campaign.


So, summarizing:

Bo and Qie were propping up private companies, feeding them state property, while using unlimited credit from banks to placate populace by giving them apartments (into private property), while simultaneously giving land to private investors and increasing marketization.

So, what did Xi copy from them, lol? It seems to me that those two guys were actively trying to sabotage the economy while removing public property from under Party's direct control and into cronies' hands.

Then they write this anyway:

>As for the regime’s economic strategy, this has two main aspects. One is the assertion of more direct control over the central SOEs, opposing those in the party who have advocated privatizing them and instead reaffirming their role as the central state’s most important source of income. The current campaign to reduce excess capacity in the steel and coal sectors needs to be understood as part of this broader strategy.


So, Bo and Qie were doing "party consolidation" in "administration", so, around themselves basically (don't forget privatizations and placating the masses), while Xi is doing actual party consolidation with reaffirming SOEs leading role in the economy while maintaining private investments (and refusing to cede capitalists any political power).

How are those similar?
>>

 No.235670

>>211384
Can this OP be edited to have the thread archives list updated to have the new post number, since this thread got remade recently because of the spammed board?
>>

 No.235676

>>235668
>How are those similar?
I don't think he claims they are
>>

 No.235690

>>235676
>LX: All of these policies I’ve just listed were adopted except, on the one hand, the central leaders abandoned Qiu He’s strategy of complete marketization, while on the other, they also rejected Bo’s strategy of trying to placate the masses through measures such as building public housing.
>>

 No.235695

>>235690
Ok, Xi adopted some policies and threw some away. How is he implying that they are similiar? He also stated earlier that many people that supported Bo Xilai, support Xi now. So it kinda makes sense that there are some overlappings
>>

 No.235709

>>235630
>No, revisionists/khruschevites are (ultra-)leftists. They are the continuity from the people repressed and not yet repressed from 1930s to 1950s. Back> then Stalin was fighting leftists. Admittedly, those were trotskyite-rightist blocs, but rightists were outside the Party while trots were inside, so…

>>235638
>Seems like you are switching terms. Revisionists like Krushchev are the ultra-leftists, and trotskyists are the rightists now.
Both of you are wrong, the latter anon pointed out the fault of the former anon, but made the same mistake. So again, Khruschevites are rightists and Trotsky was an ultra-leftist.
>>

 No.235740

Many of Anglo language first publications are super suspect and generally glowing exceedingly hard.
>>

 No.235741

>>235740
> first publications
What does first publications mean?
>>

 No.235748

>>235590
>They are outright saying that they look for trotskyists and that they have a lot of trouble finding them.
Heh… nice try CIA
>>

 No.235763

Read Mearsheimer
>>

 No.235765

>>235763
Who you're responding to
>>

 No.235768

>>

 No.235802

>>235610
>Mainland NGOs can't do anything, but HK NGOs are the real left! And they get support from overseas… Not glowing yet?
Have you even read what you quoted? He shits on HK NGOs even worse than on mainland NGOs. You're so blinded by your paranoia that you think unfavorable descriptions are actually an endorsement. "Look, he openly likes them because they're shit!" Hilarious.
>>

 No.235812

China’s Social Credit System in 2021: From fragmentation towards integration
>>

 No.235905

>>235765
everyone
>>

 No.235909

>>235812
What this guy from within China says also confirms that presentation.
>>

 No.235919

>>235905
Why? Realist IR theory is kinda boring
>>

 No.236148

>>

 No.236155

File: 1620655944810.pdf (33.49 MB, 231x300, Marxism with Chinese Chara….pdf)

>>236148
Why would we need this when the we already have this. This is just another chinese marxist trying to justify SWCC. If you insist this, then use this book
>>

 No.236339

>Xi was considered of only average
intelligence, the professor said, and not as smart as the
professor's peer group

>Women thought Xi was "boring."


This is hilarious!
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09BEIJING3128_a.html
>>

 No.236423

>>236339
>The professor marveled that Xi joined the Communist Party while his father still languished in a Party prison for alleged political crimes.
don't know what's there to marvel about, joining then would be a pretty strong signal that he's loyal to the party (and doesn't want to be sent to prison like his old man)
>>

 No.236429

>>236423
>don't know what's there to marvel
I'm not so sure about you anon, but don't you have a family and loved ones?
>>

 No.236437

>>236429
If my father was performing activities aimed at undermining the communist party of my country in favor of foreign imperialist powers I wouldn't shed any tears.
>>

 No.236444

>>236339
>Xi knows how very corrupt China is and is repulsed by the all-encompassing commercialization of Chinese society, with its attendant nouveau riche, official corruption, loss of values, dignity, and self-respect, and such "moral evils" as drugs and prostitution, the professor stated. The professor speculated that if Xi were to become the Party General Secretary, he would likely aggressively attempt to address these evils, perhaps at the expense of the new moneyed class.
based
>>

 No.236445

>>236437
This. How many comrades over the years have turned against reactionary members of their family for the proletarian cause? There is nothing surprising about that, a good communist puts communism first.
>>

 No.236455

>>236444
Based trips, how is this leak bad again?
>>

 No.236458

>>236339
This leak is incredible: no amount of propaganda could make Xi Jinping look as good as this.
>>

 No.236462

File: 1620667010581.jpeg (25.51 KB, 379x245, jihadist.jpeg)

>>236437
>>236445
<Why yes I would kill my own family for some abstract idea, how could you tell?
>>

 No.236466

>>236462
>my dad enables deaths and suffering of thousands
<B-BUT HE IS MY DAD
>>

 No.236467

>>236462
stop shitposting
>>

 No.236468

>>236462
Some things are more important than you or your family. You will understand when you get older.
>>

 No.236476

>>236339
>Xi is just a guy who likes to read books and ride trains.
Based Xi.
>>

 No.236477

>>236437
>If my father was performing activities aimed at undermining the communist party of my country in favor of foreign imperialist powers I wouldn't shed any tears.

From the document:
>21. (C) In the professor's view, Xi Jinping is supremely pragmatic, a realist, driven not by ideology but by a combination of ambition and "self-protection."

Xi is driven first and foremost by opportunism pragmatism and not because he actually believes in communism.
>>

 No.236482

>>236423
>>236429
>>236437
>>236445
His father wasn't just any person
>Xi's father, Xi Zhongxun, was a communist guerilla leader in northwest China in the 1930s, when Mao and the CCP leaders reached Yan'an at the end of the Long March. Xi Zhongxun was one of the few local leaders to survive later purges, siding with the Mao Zedong faction and rising quickly through Party ranks to become a Vice Premier in the 1950s while still in his thirties. According to the professor, Xi Zhongxun was the youngest Vice Premier among the early generation of CCP leaders. Despite his association with Mao's group, said the professor, Xi Zhongxun was also "good friends" with Deng Xiaoping and was "actually closer to Deng than to Mao."
>Xi Zhongxun was purged in the early 1960s, several years before the Cultural Revolution began, but things got worse for him and his family once the Cultural Revolution started
He most likely joined to CPC to save himself.
>Both Xi Zhongxun and the professor's father were later rehabilitated when Deng Xiaoping returned to power. Xi was rehabilitated by Deng in 1978 and was appointed by Deng as Party Secretary in Guangdong in the 1980s.
Especially since he is no Maoist and most likely not fond of the GPCR
>Xi is a true "elitist" at heart, according to the professor, and believes that rule by a dedicated and committed Communist Party leadership is the key to enduring social stability and national strength, as in the (self-perceived) elite-dominated society of his youth, knit together by family ties, elders and male authority. After years of conversations with Xi, and having shared a common upbringing with him, the professor said, he is convinced that Xi has a genuine sense of "entitlement," believing that members of his generation are the "legitimate heirs" to the revolutionary achievements of their parents and therefore "deserve to rule China." For this reason, the professor maintained, Xi could never be a "true member" of current President Hu Jintao's camp, even if Xi did not give any indication of opposition to Hu Jintao now. Xi and other first-generation princelings derisively refer to people with non-Party, non-elite, commercial backgrounds like Hu Jintao as "shopkeepers' sons," whose parents did not fight and die for the revolution and therefore do not deserve positions of power.
He is no lib tho
>At the time, the professor and his friend Zhou felt "betrayed" by Xi's embrace of the CCP, but both realized this was one way to "survive." Xi chose to "join the system" to get ahead. Although Xi never said so explicitly, he sent a message that, in China, there was a better way forward than what the professor had chosen: namely, do not give up on the system.
>>

 No.236486

>>236477
To be clear, this is a report compiled by American intelligence, the professor is a yellow gusano. Slander is to be expected. The entire document is not worth taking seriously, it's just a funny meme.
>>

 No.236488

>>236477
>Xi is driven first and foremost by opportunism pragmatism and not because he actually believes in communism.
Ok and?
>>

 No.236490

>>236488
>Ok and?
Dengoid going full mask off
>>

 No.236494

>>236477
The rest of the document gives a more nuanced picture, see for example >>236444
>>

 No.236498

>Especially since he is no Maoist and most likely not fond of the GPCR
Good.
>>

 No.236500

>>

 No.236506

>>236490
Who cares about believing in communism
I just like leaders who can destroy US hegemony and preserve CPC rule in china
Xi is doing both
>>

 No.236514

>>236506
The CPC should rename itself into "Pragmatist Party of China (PPC)" and everybody would be happy.
>>

 No.236524

>>236498
Whether you like it or not, China will need a second GPCR if it faces a crisis of accumulation or if US hegemony is destroyed and the bourgeoisie will be able to engage in imperialism and therefore have no need to be protected by the state (the only reason why the bourgs don't actively oppose the CPC and the elements of socialism which the party is safeguarding). Otherwise the CPC will fall and liberalization will commence
>>

 No.236541

ITT: "anti-dengists" role playing as their fantasy versions of what a "real dengist" must think like in order to feed other "anti-dengists' " anger. Meanwhile, "Dengism" literally doesn't exist, and these "anti-dengist" people are insecure anglos feeling threatened by China's success.
>>

 No.236544

You can tell it's storeshitter hours because they're reading storeshittistahn state department memos and believing it uncritically instead of noticing the bourgeois cynicism and reading between the lines
>>

 No.236590

File: 1620671036331.mp4 (23.55 MB, 640x480, red_ballet.mp4)

I don't know what you're all arguing about, I'm just over here enjoying the revival of red opera instilling me with good moral values ever since Xi Jinping banned video games.
>>

 No.236653

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Vfn8KbDnI

Man am I looking forward towards the communist propaganda in cinemas and in youtube.
>>

 No.236708

File: 1620674097264.png (367.34 KB, 794x608, 1.png)

>>236653
>dat Marx unboxing scene at 23:00 with heavenly choir background music
Why are the Chinese spending all this money and resources to fake being Marxists? It's so cringe.
>>

 No.236731

>>236506
At least you're honest in being a liberal.
>>

 No.236744

File: 1620674988497.jpg (54.51 KB, 1200x750, mlk.jpg)

>>236708
>Whoa guys, look at this! I guess this proves that the GOP are anti-racist, pacifist, socdems just like the guy in the picture they put up!
>>

 No.236756

>>236590
>Xi Jinping banned video games
>recently we were discussing this new game similar to FF XVI (without a party) or Devil May Cry made in China, in this very same thread.
Wise topic, le trollino.
>>

 No.236760

>>236744
Did the GOP kill MLK? Sure as fuck, he was CIA'd.

Did the CPC kill Karl Marx? Nope.

check mate, alley cat
>>

 No.236762

>>236708
>>236744
Except republicans don't have a program, nor promote one with government funding since first grade to college where people can study MLK speeches or movement.
<Unlike China.
>>

 No.236763

>>236524
How would the Chinese bourgeoisie, that doesn't control strategic industry or the military, overthrow the CPC and engage in imperialism ?
>>236708
>Why are the Chinese spending all this money and resources to fake being Marxists?
Maybe because Marxists have a lot of power in China and can get resources for ideological struggle.
>>

 No.236768

>>236760
Good work falseflagging a moronic posture, agent Frick.
>>

 No.236775

>>236763
>How would the Chinese bourgeoisie, that doesn't control strategic industry or the military, overthrow the CPC and engage in imperialism?
It's inevitable that they form connections with the political state and no amount of anti-corruption purges can change this. In Eastern Europe communist party rule was overthrown even without the existence of capitalists.
>>

 No.236781

>>236775
>It's inevitable that they form connections with the political state and no amount of anti-corruption purges can change this
<In Eastern Europe communist party rule was overthrown even without the existence of capitalists.
So, non-existent capitalists of Eastern Europe overthrew Communist Parties? Isn't that *different* situation? Don't you think that CPC turning revisionist is a bigger threat than outsider national capitalists? And no, outside capitalists won't affect CPC - again, you said it yourself that EEuropean Communist Parties were overthrown without capitalists. I'll add only that they were overthrown from within, by the likes of Gorbachov, Eltzin, Yakovlev, all those fuckers.
>>

 No.236784

>>236760
>Did the GOP kill MLK? Sure as fuck, he was CIA'd
Technically that would have been the Democrats.
>>236762
MLK is shilled hard in American schools, and his ideas can easily be studied in a range of courses from African American studies to political science to theology. Yet clearly the American institutions which lionize him act in blatant contradiction to everything he stood for. As Lenin said:
<During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the “consolation” of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it.
The point is that imagery and even education are cheap, they're hollow without the policies and action to back them up. In fact, if the CPC actually has a good grasp of Marx (which I'm sure they do), then they should be well aware that they can teach him all they want without fear, so long as they provide a standard of living and conditions which is not conducive to class consciousness or revolutionary sentiment. They know that it doesn't matter how much Marx a person reads, they're not going to make a fuss about the way things are run if they personally benefit from them. This is especially true when you have a massive state apparatus constantly telling people that working a well paid private sector PMC job is actually "building socialism" because of productive forces or whatever.

Ironically I think there are some compelling arguments for China being unlike other capitalist countries, for it retaining a great deal of progressive potential among its leadership and institutions, and for it being on some kind of path to socialism (however long, winding, and convoluted it may be). However "they show images of Marx" isn't one of them, it's idealist garbage.
>>236763
It's obvious that factions of the party leadership are aligned with the bourgeoisie. These would serve as vehicles to wield influence in the Chinese state.
>>

 No.236787

>>236763
>that doesn't control strategic industry or the military
Also keep in mind that just because the CPC doesn't let the bourgeoisie take over strategic sectors doesn't mean that individual bourgeois can be just as weatlhy as their western counterparts.
>>

 No.236790

File: 1620676273598.png (321.77 KB, 486x600, 1616366627691.png)

>>236506
>>236731
This is why the pro-Xi, pro-CPC, pro-China gang will win the protracted posting war on leftypol, because when an anon says they don't care about communism but support Xi and the CPC anyways, the reaction from anti-Xi, anti-CPC, anti-China posters infected with CIA-Trotskyist mind viruses to spread panic and false rumors about China is to accuse the anon of being a liberal. These people may be State Department employees.

Authentic pro-Xi, pro-CPC, pro-China posters otoh will say "thank you for the support" with a "serve the people" and "mass line" mindset, uniting the advanced, winning over the intermediate, and isolating the backwards. If the anon does go to China to study, please remember to thank PLA troops you might meet for their service to the proud five-star red banner which causes anons scared by false information to have overemotional fainting reactions every time they see it.
>>

 No.236792

>>236787
So? They can only be wealthy while doing only those specific businesses. Remember Jack Ma.
>>

 No.236795

File: 1620676396722.jpg (119.63 KB, 900x600, E0zR3suXEAMNwtN.jpg)

A big fuck you to anybody who frowns at enjoying high-budget Chinese Marxist propaganda. Just pull that stick out of your ass once. It's been 30 years since we haven't seen shit like that when the Warsaw Pact dissolved. By the way, that stuff makes rightoids and liberals unbelievably seethe as well.
>>

 No.236798

>>236795
Enjoying it is fine, the problem is when people take it at face value and unironically trot it out to back up arguments.
>By the way, that stuff makes rightoids and liberals unbelievably seethe as well.
Can't argue with that.
>>

 No.236799

>>236784
Can you name a capitalist country that shows images of Marx so willingly?

>"they show images of Marx" isn't one of them, it's idealist garbage.

You did a big "no, u" angle on this whole thing. What's idealist here is to think that the Chinese spend all these resources on Marx, Marxism, Lenin, Mao because they like the aesthetic of it.
>>

 No.236802

>>236798
Why can I not take it at face value, do you think whoever was the screenwriter or director here didn't mean what he was producing, and he or her was just doing contract work?
>>

 No.236807

>>236795
You can clearly see that those are fake hammer and sickles. It's like Chinese Disneyland over there, but instead of Mickey Mouse they have Karly Marx and instead Beauty and the Beast they have Mao and his seven wives or whatever.
>>

 No.236816

File: 1620677026898.mp4 (6.4 MB, 640x480, kevin_rudd.mp4)

>>

 No.236822

File: 1620677110769.png (156.66 KB, 500x281, original.png)

>>

 No.236830

File: 1620677253222.jpg (46.28 KB, 415x500, e0249e41562c3e84624c91c069….jpg)

<A: the Chinese communists push communists propaganda because that's what communists do.

<B: actually, it's four dimensional chess. The fake Chinese communist party push fake Marxism onto their fake proletariat who live in a fake DotP, because this is how fake Marxists can remain in fake power (since the real power is in bourgeois hands).
>>

 No.236833

File: 1620677302035.jpg (25.68 KB, 645x773, d7c.jpg)

>>236822
>dat freshly printed Marx book
>>

 No.236837

>>236799
>Can you name a capitalist country that shows images of Marx so willingly?
What do you mean "so willingly"? He's not openly celebrated by the government, but it's not as if its difficult to access his work, nor is he fully demonized by anybody but the most seething rightoids. Most liberals at least pay lip service to some of his ideas saying shit like "Marx was on to something in the 1800s but he's outdated now" or "his ideas were good on paper but failed in practice" or other such platitudes.
>What's idealist here is to think that the Chinese spend all these resources on Marx, Marxism, Lenin, Mao because they like the aesthetic of it.
That isn't what I'm suggesting at all. There are lot of reasons why they may be doing it, including for the sake of ideological continuity and political legitimacy. The party was keen to avoid the collapse in legitimacy that plagued Russia after the collapse of the USSR. A continuity of institutions requires a continuity of aesthetics and rhetoric. They don't just "like the aesthetics," maintaining them serves a concrete political function. This isn't unique to China, most countries continue to celebrate their founders despite the fact that the way those countries are run today would horrify those people today. I'm sure if Thomas Jefferson were alive today he would be mortified by black people voting and finance capital running everything, and yet he is still widely celebrated in America.

Moreover we also need to consider the internal political dynamics of China, and the fact that more hardline leftist factions exist both within and outside the party. Talking up Marx can serve as a way to placate them in much the same way talking up MLK serves to placate black people in the US. Or, it may be a case of the current ruling faction of the CPC genuinely holding Marxist beliefs and sincerely enaging in socialist construction, though from their actual policies this does not seem to be the case. The point is that the mere proliferation of images is not a firm indication of ideological commitment or policy intentions.
>>236802
>do you think whoever was the screenwriter or director here didn't mean what he was producing, and he or her was just doing contract work?
I don't know, but even if the people behind the show sincerely hold Marxist beliefs it doesn't have much bearing on the actual path China is on. When I say "don't take it at face value" I don't mean don't enjoy it. I mean don't take it as an indication of China's present or future policy.
>>

 No.236848

>>236784
>MLK is shilled hard in American schools, and his ideas can easily be studied in a range of courses from African American studies to political science to theology. Yet clearly the American institutions which lionize him act in blatant contradiction to everything he stood for. >Totally missing the point.
Of course, you could argue they "contradict Marx" as the U.S. do with MLK.
But the point wasn't that, and they take MLK which was kinda a softball, instead of Malcolm X, because MLK is easier to get subjectively changed because he wasn't a communist (like Idpoling is easy to co-opt - see CIA new commercial), then again we would have to examine what is "contradicted" in the academic sense of the Marxist thought inside the educational China offers, which I haven't see any good debate on this. Probably because they do pledge the Marxist thought.
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 No.236857

>>236848
>But the point wasn't that, and they take MLK which was kinda a softball, instead of Malcolm X, because MLK is easier to get subjectively changed because he wasn't a communist
True, but he sure as shit wasn't a neocon either. MLK's methods may have been pacifist, and this makes him easier to whitewash than Malcom, but the radical ideas that underpinned everything he did are always stripped away for a generic liberal message of "violence and racism are bad." Even Malcom gets this sort of treatment today, though to a lesser extent.
>then again we would have to examine what is "contradicted" in the academic sense of the Marxist thought inside the educational China offers
I'm not talking about their education on Marxism, I'm talking about their domestic and foreign policies. Keep in mind that education in Marxist thought is readily available in Western countries as well.
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 No.236864

>>236837
>Or, it may be a case of the current ruling faction of the CPC genuinely holding Marxist beliefs and sincerely enaging in socialist construction, though from their actual policies this does not seem to be the case.

What did CPC didn't do to workers? Their QoL has risen, economy is strong, USA is falling apart, communist propaganda is getting produced, army and fleet strong, capitalists being shot and repressed, China helps the Third World to develop it's economy, etc. Just because capitalists (in the past) were doing it too doesn't mean China is capitalist. To a certain point, capitalism was a progressive force on Earth. Now it's a reactionary force that prevents development. Freeing the productive forces from constraints of capitalism is going to be a symptom of socialism, isn't it?
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 No.236865

>>236857
>Keep in mind that education in Marxist thought is readily available in Western countries as well.
Not formally. Marx is eclectically taught across some social science, with a specific spin, and seperated from the curriculum by being taught in special courses. You can not make a degree in Marxism. It's not holistically taught, and pretty much banned from sincere economics. It's only taught as Marxism by Marxist reading groups and education centers of small communist parties that exist outside of academia.

In China you can actually make a degree in Marxism.
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 No.236866

File: 1620678105057.jpg (14.79 KB, 384x216, occams-razor-horse-zebra_0….jpg)

>>236837
So what you are essentially saying here is that everything is in continuity since Mao except them being communists, which they can't be, because that would mean you are wrong, moreover literally on the wrong side of history, and that the CPC is trolling its entire population of 1.4 billion people epic style, while Xi is rubbing his hands in the background and swimming in cash like Scrooge McDuck, and the whole population is led to believe that these pro-Mao pro-Marx pro-Lenin themes in books and movies and songs and education and party work are true, while in reality it's just a whole simulated experience projected from a secret alien moonbase to keep them pacified and productive, so that when the aliens can perfect this mind control technology based on Marxism and then start projecting the same experience onto the rest of the world as well, masked as "communism spreading again" and when the whole world becomes (fake) red under the (fake) banners the aliens can come without hindrance and collect samples from our anal cavities.

Thanks, makes so much sense.
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 No.236868

>>236708
It's just an image. An image can be made to mean anything. If marxist imagery helps perpetuate capitalism in the 21st century then we will have capitalism with marxist imagery.
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 No.236869

>>236837
>I'm sure if Thomas Jefferson were alive today he would be mortified by black people voting and finance capital running everything, and yet he is still widely celebrated in America.
Karl Marx wasn't the Chinese Thomas Jefferson or MLK lol

He was a German political theorist. It'd be like liberals in the U.S. referencing John Locke, who they do study at Harvard and Yale, because Locke was the most influential liberal theorist who influenced the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and they read him because they're liberals.
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 No.236876

>>236866
not too far from the truth aside from the schizo alien shit
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 No.236879

>>236857
>I'm not talking about their education on Marxism, I'm talking about their domestic and foreign policies. Keep in mind that education in Marxist thought is readily available in Western countries as well.
I am talking about the governmental level in which taxes are taken to fund all the levels of education and teach their population. Fuck, I wish Chavez did that with students at least since their bachelor's degree, but our teachers can't handle decades of brain starvation and all of the sudden force them to teach Marxism, lmao.
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 No.236880

>>236869
This is something many people forget. Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels and even largely Vladimir Lenin were Western intellectuals that didn't speak a word Chinese. It's highly unlikely China would plaster their image everywhere because it's Chinese tradition or something.

It would be the equivalent of the United Kingdom subscribing to Legalism as a state ideology and have pictures of Laozi and Han Fei hanging overdimensionally in the House of Commons, despite the UK being a white Anglo-Saxon state.
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 No.236890

File: 1620678749507-0.jpg (106.73 KB, 835x570, pfcover9-2-835x570.jpg)

File: 1620678749507-1.png (6.57 KB, 151x151, letöltés.png)

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File: 1620678749507-3.jpeg (76.56 KB, 700x525, 5de572d679d75700cc63ec3e.jpeg)

>>236880
Western countries do this all the time, tho. They are studying Maoism - P.F. Chang thought and visiting Chinese places. It's easily possible that the Chinese are doing the same with Marx and Lenin.
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 No.236893

>>236781
>Don't you think that CPC turning revisionist is a bigger threat than outsider national capitalists?
Just because the CPC was able to partly restore capitalism and at the same time preserve it own rule and the remaining elements of socialism for a an extended period of time doesn't mean that we can throw materialism through the window. Simply put, the political state can't be misaligned with its own material (ie. economic) basis. If China has a large bourgeoisie, a communist party which still controlls large parts of the economy and somehow no civil war going on at the moment or in the last 30/40 years, then the reason for this can only be that the interests of the bourgeoisie and the CPC align (at least for the moment). This common interest is the opposition to Western hegemony. Without the heavy state intervention, restriction of finance and capital controls, the capitalists couldn't have prospered and no matter how strong they are inside of China, today's imperialist powers are the same countries as the ones 100 years before and at the moment they are politically united. It's obvious that they won't let China have their share of the pie. Once Western hegemony is defeated or considerably weakened, China will have to choose.

I see that you are pro-China, but I don't believe you really think that post-Stalin USSR (before Gorby) was considerably less revisionist than Deng. What do you mean by revisionism here? Is it that Stalin was denounced in the USSR but Mao wasn't in the PRC? Again, you can't just "override" material forces with ideas.
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 No.236894

>>236864
>What did CPC didn't do to workers? Their QoL has risen, economy is strong, USA is falling apart, communist propaganda is getting produced, army and fleet strong, capitalists being shot and repressed, China helps the Third World to develop it's economy, etc.
Literally none of that is socialism, or is even the construction of socialism in and of itself.
>>236865
>It's only taught as Marxism by Marxist reading groups and education centers of small communist parties that exist outside of academia.
Maybe in burgerland or something, but Marxism still retains a heavy influence in many Western institutions in philosophy and political science departments. Even at my tiny uni there were multiple openly Marxist profs and classes on Marxist political theory. People like Althusser, Parenti, and Cockshott didn't just pop out of holes in the ground, they were educated in Marxism in Western institutions.
>>236866
Take your meds. All I said is that in a country where Marx, Lenin, and Mao were held up as icons and celebrated for decades, continuing to do so is just common sense for the sake of maintaining legitimacy. Just like Jefferson and Washington are celebrated in the US despite the fact that the way America operates now is completely incompatible with the society they envisioned. Just like MLK is celebrated by people who spit on his legacy with every breath they take. Again, the point is that celebration of Marx doesn't mean much without actually engaging in the active construction of socialism, which the CPC is not really doing at the moment.
>>236880
>It's highly unlikely China would plaster their image everywhere because it's Chinese tradition or something.
But it is a Chinese tradition. A recent one dating just a few decades to the founding of the PRC (and when China actually had a planned economy), but a tradition nonetheless.
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 No.236901

File: 1620678939648-0.jpg (4.43 MB, 4000x3000, DSC06419.jpg)

File: 1620678939648-1.jpg (148.94 KB, 1200x800, maos-kitchen-yelp.0.0.jpg)

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 No.236904

File: 1620678981830-0.jpg (186.77 KB, 1600x900, rts1pt1r-e1525418115396.jpg)

File: 1620678981830-1.gif (3.86 MB, 240x266, wut-lewut.gif)

>>236880
>It's highly unlikely China would plaster their image everywhere because it's Chinese tradition or something.
<MFW it's only 2 minutes on Google to prove you wrong
WTF nibba, why are you like this?
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 No.236906

>>236894
>Just like Jefferson and Washington are celebrated in the US despite the fact that the way America operates now is completely incompatible with the society they envisioned.
Literal idealism, as if historical processes operated on how "compatible" they are with thought. Current day USA is the inevitable consequence of the system these very same gentlemen laid down.
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 No.236909

>>236904
You didn't get my point.
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 No.236915

>>236890
>>236901
random restaurants =/= state ideology and official figures of legitimacy
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 No.236917

>Karl Marx is the Santa Claus of the Chinese: he's read, big bearded, but only there to sell you coca cola
the actual state of the western left
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 No.236919

>>236915
We're just fucking around lol
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 No.236920

>>236906
>Current day USA is the inevitable consequence of the system these very same gentlemen laid down.
Maybe so, but what I'm trying to say is that celebration of a figure doesn't mean that the country is being run in accordance with that person's values or aims. The celebration of Marx in China doesn't mean that the country is constructing socialism.
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 No.236924

>>

 No.236925

>but Marxism still retains a heavy influence in many Western institution
>""""Marxism""""
I guarantee you that at least 90% of those people are left anti-communists. Chinese students, tens of millions of them, are being taught Marxism-Leninism by people who dedicate their life to studying it, who don't do it as a hobby they talk about in class but who base their classes on it. The people you mention are mentionable because they are outliers, exceptions. The idea that Marxist science has a serious hold in Western academia is ridiculous, bordering on irrational.
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 No.236928

>>

 No.236930

>>236909
Your point was that Marx is not going to be placed on institutional places because of some sort of Chinese tradition, and I am posting a forum with the main politburo displaying a picture of Marx lmao they are the guys who write the laws, govern the districts, control the police, and elected officials.
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 No.236931

>>236920
>Maybe so, but what I'm trying to say is that celebration of a figure doesn't mean that the country is being run in accordance with that person's values or aims.
He admits it! He confesses to his idealism!
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 No.236933

>>236894
>People like Althusser, Parenti, and Cockshott didn't just pop out of holes in the ground, they were educated in Marxism in Western institutions.
Yeah and everytime some asks them where they come from they will tell you that their worldview is shaped by their own initiative and not because they had a Marxist professor. Richard Wolff makes that point in every fucking interview.
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 No.236935

>>236915
What is the official state ideology of the USA if not getting fat on trashy food? They even have one show called Honey Boo Boo where they follow around the child of an american statesman getting fat and heart transplants. Their previous president, Donald Trump, served McDonalds in the White House. Their current president talks about eating corn pop all the time. Their constitution has a chapter about the pursuit of happiness via food consumption choices.

You clearly know nothing about the state ideology of the USA.
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 No.236936

>>236919
well I'm not
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 No.236940

>>236894
>People like Althusser, Parenti, and Cockshott didn't just pop out of holes in the ground, they were educated in Marxism in Western institutions

You do realize you mentioned outcast people, right? They are so marginalized, that even the mainstream scaremonger the population into instead debating, to name them "genocide justifiers" or "tankies" lmao. Go to most of your universities and ask your professors about them/students.
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 No.236941

>>236925
>I guarantee you that at least 90% of those people are left anti-communists.
<I've never met these people but their existence challenges my worldview so I'm going to make all kinds of assumptions about them
FYI I had one who was an old school tankie and regularly came out in defense of AES.
>The people you mention are mentionable because they are outliers, exceptions. The idea that Marxist science has a serious hold in Western academia is ridiculous, bordering on irrational.
It depends on what you mean by "a serious hold". Obviously Marxists in academia are far outnumbered by liberals, but to say that Marxism isn't taught in Western institutions or that its inaccessible is blatantly false.
>>236931
Says the person who thinks that pictures of Marx = socialism.
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 No.236942

>>236935
Do you think people like Leo Strauss did not represent some sort of intellectualized state ideology of the US which influences the American elites, academically or politically, even though it is not found in American pop culture?
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 No.236954

>>236940
>>236933
How are these people outcasts? They are openly celebrated and they completely dominate Western academia. I was studying agricultural science in university and I was forced to read Parenti and Althusser all the time, even they have nothing to do with plants.

You wouldn't believe how many times my Intro to Botany professor tried to massage our necks while quoting in detail Althusser's Ideological State Apparatuses.
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 No.236964

>>236942
I haven't been to Leo Strauss yet, but I heard their sauerkraut is really good.
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 No.236967

>>236940
What exactly do you mean by marginalized? Are they thrown out of teaching and research positions? Are they prevented from publishing their work? They are a minority, but that isn't the same as being marginalized in the sense of actively suppressed. I myself wrote multiple papers during the course of my education explicitly rooted in Marxist analysis, and nobody involved even batted an eye or suggested I pick a different methodology. Those people I mentioned are the most prominent individual examples, but its not as if they're the only ones. There are plenty of Marxist publishers and scholarly journals in the West. Who do you think fills their pages?
>>236954
Marx was also required reading in both poli sci and economics at my uni.
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 No.236977

>>236920
>celebration of a figure doesn't mean that the country is being run in accordance with that person's values or aims
Do you have a single example of this happening? The idea that the US isn't being run according to the foundation set by the Founding Fathers is nonsense. Yeah they didn't think black people should vote, but the method of voting hasn't changed. The structure of the government hasn't significantly changed. The economy has only changed in so far as it needs to in order to adapt, it is still run by the bourgeoisie. You'll notice that they aren't celebrated for their racism, but their contributions to the governmental and economic structure, which remain in general terms as they envisioned them.
What is Marx celebrated for in China? Producing the science of Marxism and being the first and most comprehensive in applying it to his understanding of the world.

Why do this if they weren't sincere? Why continue to promote Marx in every school in the country when they could just as easily have begun whittling away at leftist control the second they supposedly became revisionist? The hypothesis that they are only promoting Marx to maintain legitimacy is nonsense given the fact that they have had decades to do away with him but in that time have only spread him more and more.
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 No.236987

>>236967
>Are they thrown out of teaching and research positions?
Basically yeah, RDW talks about it.
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 No.237010

>>236977
>The idea that the US isn't being run according to the foundation set by the Founding Fathers is nonsense. Yeah they didn't think black people should vote, but the method of voting hasn't changed. The structure of the government hasn't significantly changed. The economy has only changed in so far as it needs to in order to adapt, it is still run by the bourgeoisie.
Jefferson believed that the US should be a confederation of landholding yeomen, he despised usury and finance capital and yet it's very clearly running the show now, while the vast majority of Americans are proletarianized and landless. This is even more blatant in the case of MLK, who was an advocate against imperialism, exploitation, and racism. Yet he's now celebrated by imperialists, racists, and exploiters.
>Why continue to promote Marx in every school in the country when they could just as easily have begun whittling away at leftist control the second they supposedly became revisionist?
Why whittle away at him when they can just tell people that sweatshops are part of socialist construction? Why bother doing away with him when they can just ensure the compliance of the population with prosperity? This is especially true when you consider that there remains a considerable leftist faction in the CPC which wants to return to a planned economy, and would no doubt be very upset if the old imagery were done away with.
>but in that time have only spread him more and more
Isn't all this trotting out of Marx more of recent trend initiated by Xi? Sure he never disappeared, by iirc people have said that mentions of Marxism and socialism and associated images were less prominent under Jiang and Hu.
>>236987
Well luckily burgerland isn't the entire Western world.
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 No.237015

>>236894
>Maybe in burgerland or something, but Marxism still retains a heavy influence in many Western institutions in philosophy and political science departments. Even at my tiny uni there were multiple openly Marxist profs and classes on Marxist political theory. People like Althusser, Parenti, and Cockshott didn't just pop out of holes in the ground, they were educated in Marxism in Western institutions.
Marxism still doesn't dominate academia and it's definitely not state sanctioned. Keep in mind that what is being done in academia only reaches very few people while state propaganda is intended for all. What Marxism exists in universities might be "correct", but the fact that it's disconnected from practice and only exists as a pure intellecual pursuit means that it's totally harmless. This is reinforced by the followers of such Marxism who are a lot more likely to have opposing class interests with the core message of Marxism. Not to mention that many times these academic Marxisms are not even correct theoretically. Think value-critique shittery.
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 No.237018

>>236954
Anecdotal.

>>236941
>FYI I had one
Wow, one.
>to say that Marxism isn't taught in Western institutions or that its inaccessible is blatantly false.
I can't find a single school in my state that teaches Marxist economics. Not very accessible.
In China students are taught Marx from grade school, they are taught history and economics through Marxist lenses. The sparse existence of optional speciality classes in a minority of American universities does not compare, not even a blip on the radar.
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 No.237026

>>236977
It's basic ideology. People in this thread exemplify it when they say things like China's liberalization and capitalist production is for the greater good. An ideological justification that masks the real and existent beneficiaries of said capitalist production which is the global capitalist class, much of which isn't even in china and hence not in danger of being executed for corruption or whatever.
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 No.237029

>>236933
Parenti is the same, he has said he got to a PHD without hearing the word imperialism once.
I am aware of the curriculum in my european country. There is Marx, yes, because you can't do social science without Marx. This idea of Cultural Marxism is as always total bogus.
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 No.237040

>>236964
Sauerkraut is disgusting
>>236954
This guy was clearly joking, you autists
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 No.237053

File: 1620681213067.gif (2.98 MB, 520x293, 1618000542515.gif)

>>237040
>Sauerkraut is disgusting
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 No.237055

>>237026
This. Moreover the issue of the "sincerity" is beside the point. Sure, CPC leaders might "sincerely" hold Marxist values, but if their interpretation of Marx is compatible with their current and past policies then it doesn't matter, since those policies have been objectively detrimental to the cause of socialism. Sure, maybe they believe that what they are doing is genuine socialist construction, but that doesn't make a difference to the Houthis murdered with Chinese weapons, or the workers being exploited by Chinese capitalists.
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 No.237056

File: 1620681230426.jpg (180.41 KB, 600x400, michael_hudson.jpg)

>>237018
The only one I'm aware of in the U.S. other than Dick Wolff is Michael Hudson at the University of Missouri - Kansas City (who incidentally has advised the Chinese government). I was talking to a guy who was studying economics and wanted to transfer there for the grad program, because the way he described it, it's practically the only econ department in the country that hasn't been totally purged. There has been a concerted effort for decades by right-wing business interests to take over the econ departments.

>>237029
Marxism has shaped how art history is taught as well where you're now learning how art has been commissioned and by whom over the centuries. The influence of Marx is enormous, really.
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 No.237065

>>236967
>What exactly do you mean by marginalized?
They are left outside the political discussion/not being taught in most universities.
>>236967
>Are they thrown out of teaching and research positions?
Parenti specifically said a couple of times that he was almost killed in one protest he was part of, and he was constantly spied by the CIA 🤷🏻‍♂️
It's not easy to get kicked from a degree once earned.
>>236967

>same as being marginalized in the sense of actively suppressed

Dude, YT suppresses alternative thinking with algorithms that prevent people from reaching channels with such critical thought, wtf are you talking about? That's censorship, a passive one, but still censorship.
Also there's a huge problem when intellectuals allow speeches like this:
https://bosniak.org/2013/01/26/action-alert-protest-against-parenti/
Going wild, when it is not proven wrong Parenti, but attacked with strawmen, and let politicians also take actions, not inside the facts, but the capital interests.

This is very different from being mainstream or being accepted by society in general.
They are outcasts, pariah, in the complete sense of the word. Everyone knows in the U.S. who Rachel Maddows is, rarely you will find Parenti or Cockshot, even in academic circles, and even so they will think you are a crazy communist.
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 No.237070

>>237053
>>237040
sauerkraut is delicious but you have to eat it with sausage or something savory to balance out the sourness
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 No.237080

>>237065
>Parenti specifically said a couple of times that he was almost killed in one protest he was part of, and he was constantly spied by the CIA
Do you have any non-burger examples?
>Dude, YT suppresses alternative thinking with algorithms that prevent people from reaching channels with such critical thought, wtf are you talking about?
Sure, but that's something private corporations are doing on their own platforms, not educational institutions.
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 No.237082

the teaching of Marx in the US a basically boils down to
1. He invented Communism in his book The Communist Manifesto
2. Communism is wrong because it killed 500 million people and Marx didn't take into account the fact that no one likes when CEOs are paid as much as janitors

That's it. That's the whole course on Karl Marx.
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 No.237087

>>237080
>Sure, but that's something private corporations are doing on their own platforms, not educational institutions.
There isn't much difference at this point.
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 No.237095

>>237070
I'm a Kraut boo. I know how to eat Sauerkraut. Why does a Dixie know how to eat it though I wonder?
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 No.237097

>>237026
>People in this thread exemplify it when they say things like China's liberalization and capitalist production is for the greater good.
It benefited the average Chinese immensely in terms of consumer goods, tech, education, etc. while obv. fucking them in the workplace. Thing is, if you have a socialist economic system you get embargoed to shit, can't trade with the richest and most technologically developed part of the world, but what Deng did is to liberalize the economy, get those sweet sweet means of production, tech, and consumer goods in while maintaining power with a communist party, to the absolute horror of the USA who thought that once you liberalize the economy the commies would just wither away.

Deng's choice after the sino-soviet split was either generalized poverty under a just and egalitarian economic system or a steadily rising but unjust and unequal one.

What's absolutely hilarious to me is that literally all our fucking enemies are in COPE.EXE mode (someone post that recent hillary webm) over realizing that the commies in China never just "disappeared," they are here to stay, and they are rapidly becoming a way bigger threat than the USSR ever was, but these limp wristed UHM, AKSHUALLY type western leftoids won't believe either the CIA's pissing their pants (muh commies) or the Chinese doing commie shit (eradicating poverty, fair trade with countries struck be imperialism, literal fucking communist propaganda), but chose to believe that everybody lives in a Disneyland simulation like they do.
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 No.237100

File: 1620681844888.png (279.8 KB, 710x842, d94.png)

>>237040
>This guy was clearly joking, you autists
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 No.237111

>>237080
>Sure, but that's something private corporations are doing on their own platforms, not educational institutions.
>those programmers surely learned from the sky how to program
>those universities don't get funds from private companies.
>>237080

>Do you have any non-burger examples

FFS YOU HAVE POLAND, UKRAINE AND MANY OTHER EX-USSR COUNTRIES BANNING COMMUNISM, SYMBOLS, TEACHING, PARTIES AND THE EU GIVES 0 FUCK
THEY ARE OUTCASTS in western academics lmao, stop being an idealist. Have a spoon of real world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bans_on_communist_symbols#:~:text=In%20June%202017%2C%20Poland%20updated,prohibited%20by%20law%20in%20Poland.
https://www.deseret.com/1990/1/13/18840850/romania-bans-communist-party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommunization_in_Ukraine#:~:text=The%20legislation%20prohibits%20the%20use,monuments%2C%20place%20and%20street%20names.
AND THAT INCLUDES IN UNIVERSITIES.
JFC, dude, have some self-respect.
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 No.237119

File: 1620682162830.mp4 (1.8 MB, 480x852, productive_forces.mp4)

>>237097
>What's absolutely hilarious to me is that literally all our fucking enemies are in COPE.EXE mode (someone post that recent hillary webm) over realizing that the commies in China never just "disappeared,"
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 No.237123

>>237111
>Marxist academics are marginalized in Burgerland and countries run by the grandsons of actual Nazi collaborators
>therefore they’re marginalized in every Western country
It’s debatable if you could even call Ukraine and similar shitholes “Western” tbh.
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 No.237133

>>237097
Sooooo, we need to worship China? Is that what you're saying
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 No.237140

>>

 No.237141

File: 1620682657479.gif (264.72 KB, 512x512, alunya-cheeky.gif)

>>237123
>mfw this point has to be presented to counter the "not only in the U.S."
Wow, so entitled, my friend, hopefully, your inclusive solitary interpretation of communism will amass the international proletariat into one single cause.
>mfw.
If the E.U. could give a single fuck, they would sanction those countries for forbidding communism, which in the other way around is being taught in China intrinsically in their population.
Then again, they are outcasts in western culture, to the point they can't even influence politicians to be mad against Romania, Polan, Ukraine, etc.
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 No.237142

>>237140
Rude. Alsow with that flag, you're not one to talkt
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 No.237144

>>237010
>Jefferson
>MLK
You are being intentionally obtuse. These people are not celebrated because they were important or because the public like them, they are both supported only as far as they align with the existing aims of the society. No one cares about what Jefferson thought about finance capital, he is celebrated because of his contributions to the founding of the government. By promoting his contribution, the government promotes itself.
MLK was a striking figure that threatened the legitimacy of the US government, and in response the US government reformed itself to be in line with the parts of the civil rights movement it needed to in order to survive. Now those parts are indistinguishable from the government itself. By promoting those aspects of MLK, the government promotes itself.
Marx founded Marxism. China is a Marxist state. By promoting Marxism, China promotes itself.

You seem to be under the impression that the ruling class of a society is subject to the popular conception of these figures, that if everyone likes someone then the powers that be too must like them or the people won't like their rulers. In reality these figures, and their public perception, are tools of the ruling class, whose lives can be cherry picked of completely ignored on a whim. This reality can be used to understand what the ruling class wants people to think and value, by looking at what parts of these people's lives the society puts on a pedestal. The loyal and continued promotion of Marx at every level speaks of the CPC's sincerity in educating its people correctly.
>Why whittle away at him when they can just tell people that sweatshops are part of socialist construction?
Because it would be easier in every single way. The idea that there is this massive capitalist conspiracy inside the Chinese government boggles my mind. Do you seriously believe it would be easier for the supposed capitalist elements within the party to continue promoting communism than simply not doing that? They don't need Marxism to put people in sweatshops, they are surrounded by countries that do the same with no such requirement. The idea that the existence of a leftist faction would stop a bourgeois ruling class from securing its position has no historical precedent whatsoever. They would purge them before letting them grow, as every reactionary takeover has before them, because it is the path of least resistance to secure their interests. The massive effort that the Chinese state goes through to enshrine Marxism at every level of its society indicates that THAT is in its interests, because the Chinese state is MARXIST.
>>

 No.237148

File: 1620682733242.jpg (38.23 KB, 828x607, tankie-meme antipropaganda.jpg)

>>237142
>reminder
>>

 No.237152

>>237148
They're right but
>transhumanist commie flag
>twitter screencap
we can do better
>>

 No.237153

>>237148
Oh I'm an ML. I just think people that describe themselves as tankies are cringe and should kill themselves. Also twitter leftists should be violently tortured
>>

 No.237155

>>237152
Hits the correct notes to influence the losers in question
>>

 No.237158

>>237133
Yes, president Xi Jinping requires your uncritical worship or otherwise you will never get a piece of his communism, you unworthy gweilo. You pray three times a day from now on until you die facing towards Beijing in the East with a little cuck praying carpet under your dirty Western feet woven by Uyghur slave labor or else you'll be reeducated. Now say after me:
>Praise Xi, the mightiest, most honorable gentleman. Marxism is so strong in him that nobody compares. Marx, Lenin, all those dead guys from the West are midgets compared to the titanic heights of Xi Jinping.

>Oh, Xi, bless us with your communism, deliver us from this wretched capitalist hellscape.


>Amen.


After you are done with these words you must using a sacred scissor take a little piece of paper out of Xi's The Governance of China, put it up to the sky, say "the body of Marx" and swallow it. After that you must pour some saké
into a glass, put it up to the sky, say "the dirty Japanese blood of my enemies," and drink it.

After this, you may go back to whatever you were doing.

Again: three times, each day.
>>

 No.237161

>>237133
Critical support of socialism with Chinese characteristics. The lines are being drawn on the global scale and the choice should be obvious for us.
>>

 No.237163

File: 1620683103508.webm (417.96 KB, 426x240, 1609617848645-2.webm)

>>

 No.237164

>>237152
why are you getting so triggered about the flag? if thats triggering you so much, shouldn't you go into some safespace whre you don't see that? how about /pol/?
>>

 No.237169

>>237158
Ok got it. Will do so comrade
>>

 No.237174

>>237161
A sort of Comintern with its epicentre in Beijing? We need to prep up our domestic communist parties to make that work
>>

 No.237181

>>237158
How do I do this exactly? Can you post a video of you demonstrating this technique?
>>

 No.237182

File: 1620683451753.png (362.46 KB, 562x575, 1.png)

>>237179
you will never double your GDP in 15 years
https://archive.ph/KDF9C
>>

 No.237187

File: 1620683593641.jpg (17.2 KB, 332x386, it-laugh.jpg)

>>237179
LOL Worked like magic.
So we had a polster all the time.
>>

 No.237192

>>237119
>This is actually fucking real
Kek ok dengoids I see your point this is hilarious
>>

 No.237210

I stopped trying to make them understand that you don't have to be an ethnic Asian to be enthusiastic about China, so I just larp as their stereotypical 50cent army chinaman to collect their tears.
https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/320897516
>>

 No.237214

>>237210
Dengoids I may not really like you but you can be pretty based sometimes
>>

 No.237236

>>237210
Nah man, don't bring them here.
Their autistic presence is annoying. They don't debate in good faith and dislike to have some sort of sense of dignity, constantly showing 0 self-respect and self-control.
see:
>>237179
>>

 No.237244

File: 1620684837505.webm (4.73 MB, 576x1024, Eric_Li.webm)

>>

 No.237249

Infrared has made me ready to finally swallow the China pill
>>

 No.237252

File: 1620685029588.webm (3.65 MB, 576x1024, communism:faked.webm)

>>

 No.237276

File: 1620685699401.mp4 (1.74 MB, 640x480, ummm.mp4)

>>

 No.237280

File: 1620685871627.webm (1.06 MB, 576x1034, The usual.webm)

>>

 No.237479

File: 1620690802047.mp4 (7.67 MB, 1280x720, Glowie_3.mp4)

>>

 No.237489

File: 1620691413564.png (334.12 KB, 1855x386, 1.png)

>this is the extent of pol's analysis
>>

 No.237502

>>237489
>Meanwhile, warfare and nationalism is forbidden here
What world are these guys living in? Warfare waged by the United States hasn't stopped at all. Or maybe by "warfare" he means he's not allowed to LARP as a fighter in a race war
>>

 No.237527

>>237276
He's very good
>>

 No.237532

Another elderly Asian attacked in USA:
https://twitter.com/DionLimTV/status/1391889785136971776
>>

 No.237533

>>237158
>sake
>not 白酒
You had one fucking job
>>

 No.237616

'Absolutely credible' Xi Jinping will take Taiwan by force during his leadership
>>

 No.237618

File: 1620695305911.jpg (47.83 KB, 933x707, [email protected]….jpg)

>>237616
>Sky news
>>

 No.237634

File: 1620695649873-0.jpg (106.05 KB, 1248x780, snip1.jpg)

File: 1620695649873-1.jpg (141.32 KB, 1267x867, snip2.jpg)

File: 1620695649873-2.jpg (21.32 KB, 797x172, snip3.jpg)

File: 1620695649873-3.jpg (134.97 KB, 1273x661, snip4.jpg)

>>237616
Boomer schizos will be the death of us all
>>

 No.237667

>>237026
>the real and existent beneficiaries of said capitalist production which is the global capitalist class
Most of the people who have benefited from China's production over the last few decades are Chinese workers. The condition of the Chinese worker has improved dramatically, albeit in the presence of their exploitation in the Marxian sense.
>>237055
>maybe they believe that what they are doing is genuine socialist construction, but that doesn't make a difference to the Houthis murdered with Chinese weapons, or the workers being exploited by Chinese capitalists.
This is nothing more than rhetorical sleight of hand. You do not actually make the case that CPC leaders' belief regarding the construction of socialism is incorrect, you just point out something they've done that you would rather they hadn't. Please do not take my criticism as an invitation to make that case, I do not care about your opinion and would rather you stop posting altogether.
>>

 No.237686

>>237616
Based Comrade Xi liberating the Taiwanese proletariat.
>>

 No.237704

>>237634
these people need to be put in gulags and reeducation camps
>>

 No.237750

>>237667
>You do not actually make the case that CPC leaders' belief regarding the construction of socialism is incorrect
Incorrect isn’t the right term, more like nonexistent. The effect of the past 40 years of CPC policy has been to restore capitalism to China, contribute to the destruction of Soviet socialism, and reinvigorate global capital both by increasing the RoP and strengthening the power of the Western bourgeoisie. The net result has been a massive setback to socialism in every conceivable way, and any belief otherwise is pure delusion.
>>

 No.237805

File: 1620697778212.jpg (87.45 KB, 463x400, bojack-sarah-lynn-suck-a-d….jpg)

>>236462
>implying religious and cultural war = class war.
>the pol faggots trying to troll the board
>mfw:
>>

 No.237841

>>237750
>The net result has been a massive setback to socialism in every conceivable way, and any belief otherwise is pure delusion.
>Implying free-market's capitalism would allow a proper equality and wealth redistribution.
We might agree that there's no full communism in China, but saying that capitalism is what you got in China is worst than delusional.
See India: Both China and India had the same amount of workforce migration from the west to those countries to have cheaper labor about the same time, and only one of them had a very sustainable, natural, and stable growth, even during the pandemic, and that's not what a capitalist system can achieve if even mixed with something else just so you don't say capitalism with social scope.
>>

 No.237846

>>237750
You are insane.
>>

 No.237860

File: 1620698277823.jpg (146.3 KB, 644x960, deng.jpg)

>>

 No.237883

>>237750
>>237252
These people would spit on you if you said this to them, as would most working class chinese.
>>

 No.237900

>>237883
I’d say that Afghan communists would spit on Dengoids, but unfortunately they were all killed with Chinese weapons.
>>

 No.237961

>>237900
Damn that burns
>>

 No.238000

File: 1620700065510.png (24.25 KB, 300x250, doubt-4.png)

>>237900
> Afghan communists would spit on Dengoids, but unfortunately they were all killed with Chinese weapons.
>>237900
https://asiasociety.org/barnett-rubin-soviet-invasion-afghanistan-and-rise-taliban
>A lot of weapons from China went into Afghanistan as well but they were not paid for by the Chinese. There was a division of labor between these groups.
Sure, they are besties:
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/11/world/taliban-suspected-in-killing-of-11-chinese-workers.html
>>

 No.238008

>>

 No.238560

Anyone know if there's a good english forum for discussing china that isn't infested with oppositionists?
>>

 No.238578

>>238560
Go to reddit. There you can find countless echo-chambers
>>

 No.238598

>>237667
>I do not care about your opinion and would rather you stop posting altogether.
>P-P-Please stop posting. You hurt my fee fees
>>

 No.238602

>>237841
>We might agree that there's no full communism in China
Stopped reading. Get your shit together comrade and stop moving the goalpost
>>

 No.238611

>>237841
> that's not what a capitalist system can achieve if even mixed with something else
Source?
>>

 No.238622

>>237860
The quote is kind of dumb though. Slavery didn't exist in the same form in every non-industrial society.
>>

 No.238630

The Soviet intervention in Afghanistan was not even backed by all the communists there, who did not have a major mass basis anyways though they were lkely the most progressive, and not to mention also roundly criticized by the majority of the NAM.
>>

 No.238634

God, you people are insufferable.

China opened her markets: 1) because agriculture can be truly productive, above barely over sustenance level, only with fertilizer, tractors, science, pesticides, and so on and so forth, all of those things China couldn't have produced on her own 2) only when state sector of the economy was sufficiently large and powerful to bully private sector into compliance 3) only in as much private enterprise advanced social goals.

You people are saying dogmatic nonsense like "socialism is when state does stuff" unironically and from the Left, and that's cringe. If rightists aren't allowed to say "socialism is when state does stuff", you aren't allowed to say "capitalism is when private enterprise does stuff" either. Don't be dumb.
>>

 No.238636

>>

 No.238639

>>238578
I don't need an echo chamber, just a place where only good faith discussion is allowed. Talking to the same three autists for weeks when they refuse to engage in productive conversation is boring.
>>

 No.238641

>>238639
>only good faith discussion is allowed.
Meaning?
>>

 No.238643

>>238639
>Talking to the same three autists for weeks when they refuse to engage in productive conversation
What is productive conversation for you?
>>

 No.238645

>>238630
Soviet intervention was done stupidly. Removed leader in power, set up a puppet, made that puppet call in Soviet help. That's retarded, bro, and incredibly transparent.

Soviet army degenerated in Afghanistan, and that means Soviet army was already rotting from the inside to begin with. Since 1950s it was all downhill with dedovschina, soldiers only doing sweeping floors and washing dishes and building dachas for generals, all this shit that Russia had already existed in USSR, albeit in a less horrible shape. Heck, soldiers from certain nationalities were prevented from enlisting into the same units due to rising nationalism. Afghanistan exposed USSR military degeneration. I'm not saying that USSR was weak or incapable. Like, look at USA today. Can you say american military is weak or incapable? Well, it becomes even more degenerate with every passing year. USSR's military was just like that, and that's why USSR couldn't win in Afghanistan. There wasn't a reliable strategy, tactical commanders couldn't produce results, and so on and so forth.

By the way, did you know that USSR during the same timeframe sent to capitalist Egypt 4 times more military and civilian supplies than to a communist Vietnam? Fucking hell
>>

 No.238654

>>238634

In every country in which the capitalist mode of production reigns, it is the custom not to pay for labour-power before it has been exercised for the period fixed by the contract, as for example, the end of each week. In all cases, therefore, the use-value of the labour-power is advanced to the capitalist: the labourer allows the buyer to consume it before he receives payment of the price; he everywhere gives credit to the capitalist. That this credit is no mere fiction, is shown not only by the occasional loss of wages on the bankruptcy of the capitalist,13but also by a series of more enduring consequences.14 Nevertheless, whether money serves as a means of purchase or as a means of payment, this makes no alteration in the nature of the exchange of commodities. The price of the labour-power is fixed by the contract, although it is not realised till later, like the rent of a house. The labour-power is sold, although it is only paid for at a later period. It will, therefore, be useful, for a clear comprehension of the relation of the parties, to assume provisionally, that the possessor of labour-power, on the occasion of each sale, immediately receives the price stipulated to be paid for it

>>238634
Not China though right? Totally not capitalism there…
>>

 No.238659

>>238645
Anons are nostalgic for the USSR for valid reasons, but the more I read about it, the more apparent its dysfunction was, and what demoralized soldiers in any losing war will say is that they didn't have a coherent, winnable strategy. Dialectics also teaches that we should study the internal causes of the development (or degeneration) of a thing in its interactions with other things – which doesn't rule out external causes but the internal causes are primary.

Incidentally have heard stories about the Ukrainian army like this recently. Something like 1/3 of the army has evaporated in the past few years as soldiers walked off their posts. That's why they can't take Donbass. The Russian army probably has problems but it's probably in the best shape it has been in for decades and has some successful recent military operations under its belt, but in those cases the deployment was limited and had clear strategies and attainable goals.
>>

 No.238660

>>238645
>capitalist Egypt
?
>>

 No.238672

File: 1620713295220.jpg (122.48 KB, 600x848, ReligionScience.jpg)

>>238654
>trying to win a debate via reading Marx as a Talmud
Yikes.
>>

 No.238677

>>238672
Ok, show me some Dengist theory or whatever you got.
>>

 No.238692

File: 1620714142778.png (1.43 MB, 1114x724, 6l2anbkrgpk21.png)

>>238677
I don't even know what you are arguing for.

That China has capitalists, and therefore it's capitalist? Well, chinese capitalists are class-cucked, so to say. Just like under capitalism workers are class-cucked, so under chinese socialism capitalists are class-cucked. They have objective need to preserve and uphold CPC because imperialists abroad will eat them raw - if all the repressive measures CPC does towards chinese capitalists isn't enough.

That state property is capitalist and used for capitalism? No, state capitalism is a vehicle either towards capitalism or socialism (in case of post-feudal or post-colonial countries, it's to proceed towards capitalism), or to preserve existing system against crises. Who benefits from state capitalism in the West? Well, the state prints money and gives it to the rich, also represses working class to force it to work for lower wage, to discipline the labor force, to prevent workers from opening their own businesses, to provide capitalists with labor. What chinese state does? OH BOY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ezPDdTbl3E This video alone is already telling a lot. China built homes from those people, gave those into private property of those villages, built hothouses, gave those into private property as well, and taught people how to grow tomatoes - and also found the traders who will buy those tomatoes. Like, simply compare this stuff with the West.

Heck, there was even a burgercoping article in one of bigger media outlets that claimed that China "with it's policy of providing property to it's poor and middle class" will not be able to outcompete western gibs. I should have saved that article, because it was such a slip of the tongue from the western media - they outright admitted that China gives property to the people.
>>

 No.238711

>>238560
>>238639
>Gets presented with opposing facts
<Refuses to engage with them
<Proceeds to call everyone bad faith
Man you really got ExtraAutism going
>>

 No.238721

>>238692
>Well, chinese capitalists are class-cucked, so to say
This is what Dengoids unironically believe. If I read your essay a bit further, I can see that you also think that Socialism is when housing projects or whatever. Let's be honest, China is a mixed economy atm and they are at crossroads of how to proceed, with Xi being the symbol of this. Either they go left or they turn back right.
But to say that they are socialist right now, you need to do mental gymnastics like "Billionaires are class cucked" in China. Why even doing this?
>>

 No.238725

>>238008
The part where he talks about his internet and phone deal from the state-owned telecom company around 40:00 is a reminder of just how badly people are getting screwed in my country. I want to live in China.
>>

 No.238727

>>238725
We don't even know where you're from, so how can this be a reminder sinoboo?
>>

 No.238731

File: 1620715292455-0.jpg (141.41 KB, 786x491, 1071106.JPG)

File: 1620715292455-1.jpg (475.78 KB, 1632x919, Fort-Sam-Kids.jpg)

>>238692
<China built homes from those people, gave those into private property of those villages, built hothouses, gave those into private property as well, and taught people how to grow tomatoes - and also found the traders who will buy those tomatoes.

>Like, simply compare this stuff with the West.

Literally do the same shit. Are you retarded?

The fuck do you think USDA and HUD are?
>>

 No.238736

>>238721
China's "mixed economy" has direct state property, as in state-owned mines, state-owned factories, state-owned farms. Land and resources are nationalized and are a state property. When in the West the state owns through shares, China's state owns stuff directly, like they do in Eastern Europe (at least) with a hospital or a municipal buildings.

>But to say that they are socialist right now, you need to do mental gymnastics like "Billionaires are class cucked" in China


You don't even argue against such a possibility, you just dismiss it. You aren't engaging with my argument. Workers in the West are class-cucked and support their oppressors. True? Of course it is true, plenty of such people. Can such a situation be flipped onto bourgeoisie? Of course it can be, wasn't Engels a capitalist?
>>

 No.238742

>>238731
Is that a picture of New York in the 70s? Which is the only city in the U.S. that has any public housing to speak of.
>>

 No.238745

File: 1620715796131.png (953.34 KB, 1297x356, DPRKKolhoz.png)

>>238731
You tell me what they are.
>>

 No.238749

File: 1620716034576-0.jpg (274.43 KB, 960x595, Boston.jpg)

File: 1620716034576-1.jpg (7.45 KB, 275x183, detroit.jpg)

File: 1620716034576-2.jpg (105.49 KB, 1000x644, Chicago.jpg)

>>238742
>Is that a picture of New York in the 70s?
I'm pretty sure it's a picture of New York from recentish. It still all looks the same.
>Which is the only city in the U.S. that has any public housing to speak of.
Not true. All the East Coast population centers have the same shit. Also Canada, also Europe and the rest of The West.

>>238745
Holy shit! They have parks too?!?! Don't tell me they have ducks in those parks. You're going to blow my mind.
>>

 No.238751

>>238736
>You don't even argue against such a possibility, you just dismiss it
For you to argue this, you have to throw HistMat out of the window. I can't even begin to start with this mental retardation(sorry but it is just that stupid). You're saying a chinese billionaire is class cucked, while still exploiting his workers? How the fuck is this possible. This is class colaborationism at its finest.
>Of course it can be, wasn't Engels a capitalist?
He still exploited his workers and he never claimed otherwise. He financed communists to eventually abolish capitalist relations. Chinese bourgeoisie is not aiming for the abolition of the current model since they profit too much from it. Now how are they class cucked again?
>China's "mixed economy" has direct state property, as in state-owned mines, state-owned factories, state-owned farms. Land and resources are nationalized and are a state property
China still has a huge private sector and therefore can be called a mixed economy
>>

 No.238752

File: 1620716396255.mp4 (3.15 MB, 640x480, up_against_the_wall.mp4)

>>238751
>Now how are they class cucked again?
Because if they don't do what the government says they have to buy a plane ticket and flee the country or they might get executed.
>>

 No.238756

>>238751
<You're saying a chinese billionaire is class cucked, while still exploiting his workers? How the fuck is this possible. This is class colaborationism at its finest.
>He still exploited his workers and he never claimed otherwise. He financed communists to eventually abolish capitalist relations.

Why are you like this?

>Chinese bourgeoisie is not aiming for the abolition of the current model since they profit too much from it. Now how are they class cucked again?

They literally support CPC with the stated goal of socialism by 2050, when the rate of profit will fall to zero. They don't even object to regulatory stuff, chinese big tech is toothless against CPC. They outright THANKED the government for fining them, and they cooperate with the government when government wants to slice away companies' subsidiaries.

>China still has a huge private sector and therefore can be called a mixed economy


Again with ignoring my argument, eh?

Heard of conglomerates? Chinese state companies own shares in private companies that they deem essential. Private sector is growing around state property and is dependent on state property, not the other way around. In the West the state tries to negotiate with private companies so that private companies do something. In China, state literally does stuff it wants and makes private enterprise follow - because private enterprise is an extension of state property!
>>

 No.238763

>>238756

>Chinese law states that Chinese and foreign companies operating in China must set up CPC committees. In accordance with this law, Huawei had set up a CPC Committee. Our CPC Committee is not involved in any operational or business decisions.


>Our founder Ren Zhengfei is a member of the CPC but this has no bearing on the business. To explain why, it is useful to put this into its historical context. When Ren Zhengfei was a young man, you needed to be a CPC member to have any position of responsibility, even as the head of a cooking team in the military.


Yikes.
>>

 No.238768

>>238752
>Because if they don't do what the government says they have to buy a plane ticket and flee the country or they might get executed
Poor Billionaire. All he has to do is shuttin up. So cucked is he?
>>238756
>Why are you like this?
Engels argued for the abolition of private property. Chinese billionares don't. Being a class traiter and being a class colaborationist are different things
>They literally support CPC with the stated goal of socialism by 2050
Because if they don't then they get in trouble. You're assumption only works when you take the chinese government at face value.
>They don't even object to regulatory stuff, chinese big tech is toothless against CPC
Regulations aren't the same as expropriating. You're argument is pretty much "Chinese billionaires are happy with CPC rule. See they even thanked them on chinese state media. Ah they are class cucked alright. Now back to exploiting workers"
>when the rate of profit will fall to zero
How can a socialist country be affected by the falling rate of profit.
>In China, state literally does stuff it wants and makes private enterprise follow - because private enterprise is an extension of state property!
Where is the proof?
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/06/c_137020127.htm
>>

 No.238773

>>238763
>>238764
Whether the CPC organs within every company are powerless or not is irrelevant, what matters is if these companies adhere to CPC policy, which they do.
>>

 No.238781

>>238773
I guess this makes them state owned now?
>>

 No.238783

>>

 No.238787

File: 1620718202540.jpg (35.44 KB, 440x301, 9e5389bbjw1ezda9nmc30j21f8….jpg)

I mean, no… China is capitalist now. Pay no attention to Huawei's internal governance structure.
>>

 No.238826

>>238768
This talk will just go round and round because you can't stop being dogmatic.

China does stuff for the people, and more than capitalist countries do? It's not socialism because they have capitalists!

What's that, capitalists are forced to follow CPC policies? That's because CPC is capitalist!

It's just retarded circular reasoning on your part.

>How can a socialist country be affected by the falling rate of profit.

How will capitalists survive with zero rate of profit?

>Where is the proof?

Again, you don't even argue with my reasoning. I said - private enterprise is an extension of state property and is dependent on it. State factory produces some product and buys materials from the private sector, or vice-versa. Since private sector reports more profits, vice-versa is more probable i.e. private sector produces consumer goods while state sector mostly does heavy industry.
>>

 No.238847

>>238826
>This talk will just go round and round because you can't stop being dogmatic.
I agree, let's put a stop to this. I am not being dogmatic though. I support China and I think the leftward shift under Xi is a good omen, but just ignoring the presence of the private sector and the bourgeoisie isn't helping us.
>What's that, capitalists are forced to follow CPC policies? That's because CPC is capitalist!
What's that, capitalists are forced to follow CPC policies? That's because CPC is socialist! This reasoning is equally as insufficient as mine in a lot of ways. The CPC keeps the Bourgeoisie in control(for now atleast), but helps them out when necessary, lets them into the party and cooperates with them. Its different from the west, but also a capitalist deviation from soviet managing of bourgeois influence
>It's just retarded circular reasoning on your part
Right back at you
>How will capitalists survive with zero rate of profit?
They won't, but this wasn't my point. You said that China 2050 is linked to the anticipated fall of the ROP to zero in that timeframe. I said, if China is socialist(as you are claiming), then they wouldn't have to worry about it, but apparently they do. Why is the question?
>Again, you don't even argue with my reasoning. I said - private enterprise is an extension of state property and is dependent on it. State factory produces some product and buys materials from the private sector, or vice-versa. Since private sector reports more profits, vice-versa is more probable i.e. private sector produces consumer goods while state sector mostly does heavy industry
This is proof for you that it is in fact all publically owned. I disagree, because imo you just made these categories yourself and it doesn't reflect how the CPC thinks about this. They have SOE's ofcourse and there I can see your reasoning apply, but the private sector is in fact the private sector and not some extension of State property.
>>

 No.238870

>>238787
Yeah b the fact that Facebook Twitter etc are full of feds and do the CIAs work basically makes them - and by extension the USA - state capitalist!
>>

 No.238873

>>238787
China is in the preliminary stage of socialism but not in the advanced stage of socialism. Its not a capitalist country by definition.
>>

 No.238926

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_warrior_diplomacy
OK how bullshit is this?
Just saw it hyperlinked in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Weihua
Thought it was just an obscure meme phrase but are they actually forcing this? How much water does it hold if any
>>

 No.238958

>>238926
What do you mean? China's diplomacy has become a lot less diplomatic for a while now.
Do you even pay attention to the shit their ambassadors and foreign ministers say?
>>

 No.238967

>>238926
Glowie bullshit
Nations, that don't immediately, and totally, bend the knee to the Storeshitter Empire get branded disturbers of nebulous order.
No one throws out monikers when sale of Libya's oil is proposed or Iraq gets illegally invaded, but it's always the unsubjugated who are the too uppity ones ever.
>>

 No.238971

>>238967
How is that glowie bullshit you retard? You think the CIA is spreading the rumour that the Chinese diplomatic corps is extremely rude in order to gain sympathy and thus get a war? Since when did a country get invaded for rudeness lol?
>>

 No.239084

>>238971
Where did anon imply that? The US always has very aggressive diplomacy towards others and when somebody doesn't take their shit they're suddenly dictators and murderers. I guess we've become so used to burgers being burgers that we can't perceive the absurdity anymore. Fortunately the US isn't confronted by just small fish anymore.
>>

 No.239093

File: 1620732213976.png (43.01 KB, 475x649, vfcbvnm,.png)

>>239084
> The US always has very aggressive diplomacy towards others
no it doesn't, that was a trump tactic, usually it's speak softly and carry a big stick. wolf warrior was a failed strategy just like trump's dickhead approach. you tard.
>>

 No.239124

>>238826
>How will capitalists survive with zero rate of profit?
How can a society with profit be fucking socialist when the very idea of socialism implies the ABOLITION of the profit motive?
>>

 No.239128

>>

 No.239161

>>239128
they were saying the population is falling, I guess that must have been an annual count?
>>

 No.239238

>>239093
lol bullshit, it's "speak in doublespeak, swing the stick around like a lunatic at anyone and count on your media servants to make sure noone gives a fuck"
>>

 No.239256

>>239128
kinda good, but not great
>the country’s elderly population has risen precipitously, with the 2020 census recording almost 50% more people aged 60 or above compared with 10 years prior. There are also slightly more children aged 14 or below, likely due to the one-child policy being relaxed in 2016. Together, these higher proportions of very old and very young people are a greater strain on the country’s social security system.
>>

 No.239287

File: 1620739227930-0.png (64.78 KB, 366x412, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1620739227930-1.png (77.41 KB, 366x417, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1620739227930-2.png (134.05 KB, 728x409, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1620739227930-3.png (43.27 KB, 575x581, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1620739227930-4.png (77.41 KB, 366x417, ClipboardImage.png)

>>239128
Sex ratio at birth fell quite a bit
>>239161
Yeah the census is every 10 years, what you're referring to is alleged pop. decrease from 2019 to 2020
>>239256
I'm a brainlet but just looking at the graphs this seems like a nothing burger.
>>

 No.239289

File: 1620739381340.png (164.68 KB, 412x351, ClipboardImage.png)

>>239287
accidental name fag and butchered the picrels. Only wanted age demographics stuff rip
>>

 No.239293

>>239124
Capitalism is progressive to a certain extent. Removing capitalism's contradictions makes it socialism. Profit is tied up to getting out of an investment more than was invested, so, a growth of productive forces.
>>

 No.239303

File: 1620739878337-0.jpg (78.57 KB, 960x517, XinjiangPolicy.jpg)

File: 1620739878337-1.jpg (21.86 KB, 640x337, XinjiangGenocide.jpg)

>>239093
To prove that "wolf warrior diplomacy" doesn't work you bring up western media's response analogous to "n-no it doesn't work you bully". China just doesn't want to tolerate the shit flinged at China, that's all there is to it. Of course USA wouldn't want to admit that it doesn't work. Meanwhile, entire world except for the usual suspects doesn't believe in Xinjiang gemocide - and even then no parliament there did an official statement that there is a genocide happening.

So, look at pics and say that "wolf warrior diplomacy" doesn't work, lol
>>

 No.239328

Can somebody tell me where did all the protectors of the poor uyghurs have gone now that we are seeing a recorded massacre in Palestine?
>>

 No.239334

>>239328
Dude, we're not on reddit. We know that it is hypocritical and you won't get any upvotes here
>>

 No.239338

File: 1620740948350.png (550.25 KB, 735x645, ClipboardImage.png)

>>239303
>entire world but western EU+Anglosphere supports or neutral on Xinjiang policy
Libs etc brush this off by claiming everyone but the West is corrupt and bought off by the Chinese.
>>

 No.239342

>>239328
They are making sure any critique of Israel is confused with anti-semitism. But they're definitely still not in Xinjiang.
>>

 No.239366

>>239338
China is a priori evil. It's like with anti-semitism, any evidence to the contrary just further confirms that Jews are lying manipulators. I see the same logic here, except another argument is also that the Chinese are just too brainwashed and servile (as a race even) to see how evil is China.
>>

 No.239385

>>238926
>>238958
>>238967
Wolf Warrior is a movie which is basically Chinese Rambo.
"Wolf Warrior diplomacy" to storeshitter opinion article writers means "to not just instantly comply with anything demands of you" and to "not let unipolar American cultural hegemony completely dominate your nation." which they then characterise as you breaking the "natural order of things"
>>

 No.239389

>>237704
Australian Boomers who binge watch sky are literally barely even functioning at a level that could be considered human anymore.
It's literally all reptile brain and programmed in NPC speech trees
>>

 No.239402

>>239128
>111 men for every 100 women
>millions of men without a partner

We gotta WeHo China. Could be a gay paradise
>>

 No.239418

>>238602
And who the fuck am I during the thread so you can say I moved the goalpost, you little cunt?
>>

 No.239425

File: 1620744687075-0.jpg (128.73 KB, 1288x356, kwame nkrumah socialism qu….jpg)

File: 1620744687075-1.jpg (160.99 KB, 1295x437, Kwame Nkrumah quote.jpg)

>>

 No.239443

>>239418
>Stating that China doesn't have full communism
>A form that not even the USSR claimed to have achieved
This is called moving the goalpost
>>

 No.239446

>>238611
>>238611
Do I need to prove to you that economic growth around capitalists states created unstable growth and a lot of inequality producing poor areas around the wealth concentration?
>>

 No.239457

>>239446
Let's not pretend that there is a vast income and wealth inequality in China. Anyway, since China conducted the phase of primitice accumulation under Mao, I speculate that this made it possible for China to avoid some of the inevitable problems that most capitalist countries faced. This doesn't mean that they won't face crisis in the future if they keep using their current model, as composition of capital has already lowered in China
>>

 No.239490

>>239402
I think they can do a central planed women birth boost through clinics 🤔
>>

 No.239492

>>239443
The whole point of antidengism in this thread is that China doesn't have communism 🤷🏻‍♂️, I am not the one fixing goalposts.
>>

 No.239495

>>

 No.239499

>>239492
No its that they are not socialist and rather keep their mixed economy and their vibrant private sector. Full communism is moving the goalpost, in order for you to say "see, not even the ussr achieved that, so why should china?"
>>

 No.239502

>>239495
That wouldn't exactly fix the problem unless you're proposing that unmarried 30-40 y/o men are given pure 16 y/o waifus
>>

 No.239505

>>239502
I thought you wanted to increase the female population in general, not specifically women of childbearing age.
>>

 No.239507

>>239505
Increasing the female population isn't going to solve anything unless those women are matched up with the existing unmarried men.
>>

 No.239512

>>239457
>Let's not pretend that there is a vast income and wealth inequality in China
You do realize they have achieved a sustainable inequality reduction, something free-market capitalism can't achieve, right?
>>

 No.239513

>>239507
They should just pursue more meaningful platonic relationships instead, I bet for a lot of them are incels due to loneliness and that sex is secondary.
>>

 No.239517

>>239499
>see, not even the ussr achieved that, so why should china?
I never implied, that, tho, so I rewrite my phrase: "Let's agree they don't have a form close to socialism, yet" there you go.
>>

 No.239521

File: 1620747745649.jpg (94.28 KB, 645x773, wojak-feel-the smellerinoo.jpg)

>>239513
>I bet for a lot of them are incels due to loneliness and that sex is secondary.
Imagine the smell of all that incelism in China concentred in their cities.
>>

 No.239527

>>

 No.239538

>>239512
Yes, I do. And I credit Xi and his state led "poverty reduction programms" and his overall leftward shift for it. But there is still vast inequality in China and I link this to the still big influence private property has atm. Why is it wrong for me to say that the CPC should move to an increasingly puplic economy in the future?
>>

 No.239543

>>239517
>there you go
What do you want me to do?
>>

 No.239550

File: 1620748912816.jpg (36.86 KB, 500x500, 7e4.jpg)

>>239527
You are on an imageboard. MEMES, blockhead, MEMES.
>>

 No.239603

>>239538
>But there is still vast inequality in China and I link this to the still big influence private property has atm

Literally who cares about the inequality as long as economy delivers better future to workers?
>>

 No.239613

>>239603
Careful you dropped your mask Dengoid
>>

 No.239618

>>239603
The dialectical process requires constant critique if we are to ever bring about true socialism. What they are doing is progressive, but we must always pressure to the left. If we don't drive the ship, it will drive us. Simple as.
>>

 No.239650

>>239303
>Serbia
lol
>>

 No.239653

I hope people are familiar with Samir Amins theory of "Delinking". Basically due to global capitalisms polarisation, the global south will never be able to catch up with the north and therefore a delinking from the world economy needs to done. According to Amin, full delinking is very much impossible and a 70% delinking would be suffice. China's development for him is determined 50% by its sovereign project and 50% by globalisation. So one could say that it's partially delinked already. Has China progressed even further away from globalisation or is has the opposite happened over the last 10 years. What do you think?
>>

 No.239747

>>239613
aaaand you ate his bait.
>>239603
Either you have a pacific revolution or a violent one I was trying to say inequity, I mix the terms in English, which is different from inequality, Marx is against inequality you need to reduce inequity, proposing more access to products, services, and resources to avoid the violent revolution while you pursue the socialism.
>>

 No.239922

>>239618
>What they are doing is progressive, but we must always pressure to the left.
I don't think they care what we think at all.
>>

 No.239938

>>239922
>I don't think they care what we think at all
And the ROP doesn't care what China thinks at all
>>

 No.239947

>>239650
Probably the most pro-China/Russia country in Europe, not surprising.
>>

 No.240088

>>238926

good post here >>234813
>>

 No.240222

File: 1620762350202.jpg (937.38 KB, 1200x3600, xfje7c2ehjy61.jpg)

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 No.240230

File: 1620762489312.jpg (180.09 KB, 1624x1893, ZwiAQB3.jpg)

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 No.240238

File: 1620762583915.png (314.66 KB, 941x498, 1.png)

US Encircling of China Explained
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRbDOKwuhck
>>

 No.240272

File: 1620763342659.png (213.33 KB, 471x780, 4085903580934580.png)

Reading Mao. Love this stuff.

>>239947
Also has the highest vaccination rate in Europe from what I've read because they take Sinovac.
>>

 No.240514

>>240272

Where is this from?
>>

 No.240553

File: 1620767850684.png (162.23 KB, 699x684, 1451785807303.png)

>>240238
Brehs, should China be worried?
>>

 No.240599

>>240553
Worried, but not hysterical. China has the advantage of actually being there lol, whereas the US itself is far away and spread too thin, meaning it's far harder for the US to maintain its presence there if something goes down. Both sides know this, which is why even if China does something in south china sea the US won't necessarily intervene because of their inferior position. Not that the US hasn't made many dumb strategic decisions in the past, but China is not just another small developing country.
>>

 No.240612

>>239512
>>239513
or become gay
>>

 No.240657

File: 1620769381121.jpg (261.22 KB, 1000x1409, 1620157118801.jpg)

>>240599
Asked this back when Bunkerchan was still running but how is China doing overall during this Cold War with the US?
>>

 No.240725

>>240657
Losing some (Philippines for now, Myanmar for now) winning some (HK,Vietnam not joining the Us siege effort).
The outcome still hangs on balance, but if China will not start to get assertive in an anti-Us diplomacy effort it risks complete encirclement and blockading.
>>

 No.240780

File: 1620771213579-0.jpg (180.45 KB, 1000x1571, 9ozjrfwv3ky61.jpg)

File: 1620771213579-1.png (174.58 KB, 640x384, qwmo7mhz3ky61.png)

File: 1620771213579-2.jpg (37.16 KB, 746x317, jwykouv24ky61.jpg)

>>

 No.240907

File: 1620772931896.mp4 (23.89 MB, 640x480, china_TV.mp4)

>>

 No.240938

>>240612
That's not how it works.
>>239550
I knew it was a meme, I just didn't understand it, lol.
>>

 No.240944

>>

 No.240978

>>240944
>gsoc's status as corporate controlled doesn't seem super relevant to me though.
Imagine being this cucked.
>>

 No.241245

Does anyone know what this sub is about?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CLTV/
>>

 No.241352

File: 1620780565569.jpg (73.32 KB, 300x300, Generals_MiG.jpg)

>>240780

TACTICAL FIGHTER REPORTING
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 No.241364

File: 1620780725464.png (289.98 KB, 949x694, Screenshot from 2021-05-12….png)

>>241352
China is currently heavily investing in the nationalism upgrade
>>

 No.241390

>>

 No.241667

>>

 No.241764

>>240272
>US government bad, american people good

LMAO
>>

 No.242397

File: 1620812734008.png (348.73 KB, 987x714, mao_on_cornman.png)

>>

 No.242705

File: 1620824825642.jpg (109.83 KB, 607x1024, May10_JackMa.jpg)

holy kek
>>

 No.242741

>>242705
He seems depressed.
CPC should give him some help in exchabge for all its shares in Alibaba.
>>

 No.242757

>>239293
> Profit is tied up to getting out of an investment more than was invested, so, a growth of productive forces.
This isn’t true though. They very problem with capitalism is that it experiences a stagnation of growth in infrastructure. The fact that China doesn’t suffer from this tells us something else is going on.
>>

 No.242770

File: 1620825740053.jpg (188.52 KB, 1300x989, 5e9ef09215e9f924c02efbac.jpg)

>Removing capitalism's contradictions makes it socialism.
Dengism
>>

 No.242787

>>242705
He looks truly deformed
>>

 No.242886

>>242757
>They very problem with capitalism is that it experiences a stagnation of growth in infrastructure.
Because rate of profit falls, yeah. First bougies become unwilling to invest in reality, preferring financial manipulations, then it stops growing at all and zombifies.

>The fact that China doesn’t suffer from this tells us something else is going on.

Because state-led investments are the dominant and "road choosing" in China. State invests into a sector, and private enterprise grows there to meet state needs.
>>

 No.243030

>>242705
get fucked
>>

 No.243040

File: 1620830635683.jpg (31.33 KB, 640x343, w035yugmhoa61.jpg)

>>

 No.243089

>>242886
So what’s the problem
>>

 No.243291

Foreign Ministers of China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan meeting in Xi’an

https://www.silkroadbriefing.com/news/2021/05/11/wang-yis-may-12-xian-invitation-to-central-asias-foreign-ministers-an-overview/

If Turkmenistan agrees to further integration in trade and infrastructure this meeting could lead to a MASSIVE win for China, which would gain a second Central Asian route for trade, thereby slightly weakening his dependency from Malacca straits.
It's still early to say what will result from this meeting, but my take is watch this space.
>>

 No.243476

>>243291
A massive win for China, but another step towards war with the US.
>>

 No.243548

>>243476
China and the US are already in a war. What kind of war do you mean here?
>>

 No.243689

Why can’t I post links with Chinese characters on this site?
>>

 No.243692

>>

 No.243701

File: 1620842830432.png (410.72 KB, 500x621, kwordnword.png)

>>243291
>If Turkmenistan agrees to further integration in trade and infrastructure this meeting could lead to a MASSIVE win for China, which would gain a second Central Asian route for trade, thereby slightly weakening his dependency from Malacca straits.
Noice.
>>

 No.243740

>>243548
I mean an actual prolonged military confrontation where the armies of both states are shooting at each other with the intent of subjugating or annihilating the other.
>>

 No.243761

>>243740
Doubt this will happen. It's more likely he US will try a regime change in one of the BRI countries and there will be a proxy war.
>>

 No.243880

>>243874
Moonrunes, didn't read.
>>

 No.243930

File: 1620846554082.png (56.92 KB, 220x312, 220px-Gramsci.png)

Is it possible that Xi and the faction of the party he represents constitutes a form of Caesarism? For those who are unfamiliar with the concept, it was first put forward by Gramsci in the Prison Notebooks, where he describes it as a perennial historical phenomenon which emerges from a stalemate in the class struggle:
>Caesarism can be said to express a situation in which the forces in conflict balance each other in a catastrophic manner; that is to say, they balance each other in such a way that a continuation of the conflict can only terminate in their reciprocal destruction. When the progressive force A struggles with the reactionary force B, not only may A defeat B or B defeat A, but it may happen that neither A nor B defeats the other—that they bleed each other mutually and then a third force C intervenes from outside, subjugating what is left of both A and B. In Italy, after the death of Lorenzo il Magnifico, this is precisely what occurred…
>Caesarism is progressive when its intervention helps the progressive force to triumph, albeit with its victory tempered by certain compromises and limitations. It is reactionary when its intervention helps the reactionary force to triumph—in this case too with certain compromises and limitations, which have, however, a different value, extent, and significance than in the former. Caesar and Napoleon I are examples of progressive Caesarism. Napoleon III and Bismarck of reactionary Caesarism.
In other words, Caesarism is the result when class forces are locked in a stalemate that weakens the historical class blocs, which makes possible the intervention of forces which ordinarily are not capable of independent action (e.g. the military, bureaucracy, small political cliques, etc.) These forces intervene to subjugate both class factions in a compromise which favours one over the other, and either facilitates the transformation into a new form of society (progressive Caesarism) or actively prevents it (reactionary Caesarism). Obviously this is a very preliminary hypothesis, but it was one which I couldn't help thinking of when reading about Xi's position in the party vis-a-vis balancing between the more bourgeois and more proletarian currents. If this is the case, the obvious question would be whether or not this is a Caesarism of the progressive or reactionary variety, although that's a question that can only truly be answered in the long term.
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 No.243966

File: 1620846991066.png (418.88 KB, 1840x725, Political Landscape in Chi….png)

>>243930
Anon in picrel certainly likes to thinks so and the argument can definitely be made. After all he marks a left-ward shift from his predecessors, making it a sort of progressive Ceasarism?
>>

 No.243978

>>243966
A lot of contemporary Hegelians have been having a Napoleon on a horse moment with comrade Xi fwiw
>>

 No.243983

>>243966
>After all he marks a left-ward shift from his predecessors, making it a sort of progressive Ceasarism?
Thinking of it in these terms can be misleading, since Caesarism is by its nature a compromise between class forces. Thus even a reactionary Caesarism can involve something of a "leftward" shift. Bismarck's introduction of welfare and public healthcare are a great example.
>>

 No.243984

>>243978
They also had this with Stalin(who was more of a Robbespierre). Maybe this is indication that we shouldn't listen to Hegelians anymore?
>>

 No.243999

>>243983
Yeah, but he never even pretended to care about anything other than the Prussian Monarchy. The similiarities are sparse here. In point, I agree though
>>

 No.244063

>>243999
Well one of the problems with Gramsci's theory is that reactionary and progressive Caesarism can look pretty similar during their actual reigns. They can really only be categorized after the fact by examining the long term consequences of the Caesarist regime.
>>

 No.244089

>>

 No.244096

>>

 No.244103

File: 1620848263966-0.jpg (359.39 KB, 1500x1500, Michael_Parenti_-_MFG_Ad.jpg)

File: 1620848263966-1.jpg (166.97 KB, 810x893, lhrafs3eogsz.jpg)

>>

 No.244107

>>244103
Dictatorship of the Plebs?
>>

 No.244114

>>243978
I've been having thoughts recently that
>Mao=Robespierre
>Deng=thermidor
>Xi=Napoleon
>>

 No.244143

>>244103
>>244096
Tbh I never understood the argument that Caesar was a progressive figure. I mean his pro-plebian and anti-aristocratic tendencies are obvious, but I don't see how the principate was more progressive than the republic.
>>

 No.244157

>>244063
Yes, it's impossible to tell. Even if reactionary forces were stronger than progressive ones (i.e. in relative terms) before Ceasarism, one could still argue that stopping the conflict ultimately saves reactionary forces from becoming weaker in absolute terms and/or from a progressive Ceasarism by another actor.
But CPC would say that Gramsci's theory ignores the wider context of the long road to socialism and that reactionary forces were only harnessed to advance further down that road. In that case Xi is basically needed to curb all those forces that grew too powerful since Deng and prevent them from getting into the driver's seat.
>>

 No.244166

>>244114
History repeating first as a tragedy, secondly as a farce?
>>

 No.244205

>>244143
The Roman aristocracy were virtually all either deeply conservative or out-and-out reactionary and spent the previous century violently opposing any kind of progressive reforms, reforms which the greater part of Rome desperately needed but which would have weakened senatorial power and control. Caesar effectively broke the power of the senate which opened the way for the kinds of reform and adaptation senatorial families had been resisting for centuries.

Does that help?
>>

 No.244206

>>244166
Marx was relating Napoleon to Napoleon III with that
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/
Enjoy
>>

 No.244236

>>244205
What sort of reforms did Caesar and Augustus introduce that were progressive in the Marxist sense? Did a landowning elite not still dominate the principate politically and economically?
>>

 No.244252

I feel like comparing the class character of a classical era slave society to that of an industrialized state in the throes of bourgeois revolution is spurious. I like Parenti and Gramsci both but they are really galaxy braining here. In what way can you say Caesar was progressive that Bismark wasnt?
>>

 No.244291

>>244236
Yeah, the landholding elite were still dominant. The Caesar family was as blue blooded as the rest, though by Julius's time they'd been down on their luck for a while. I'd have to go and look, but if I remember right he did open up opportunities to the poor and enabled a sort of class mobility. He did a lot more than that, but I can't recall exactly off the top of my head.
>>

 No.244306

>>244252
>In what way can you say Caesar was progressive that Bismark wasnt?
Bismarck gave in to working class pressure, Caesar was more of a conspirator to soften patrician rule
>>

 No.244346

WARNING:
entering anglo-hours

shitposts and nationalist insecurity fueled butthurt commences
>>

 No.244353

>>244306
For Caesar's part, he could be said to have cultivated plebean discontent as a counterbalance to his patrician political opponents. His services to the plebeians deliberately highlighted senatorial neglect and oppression of the working classes, and his popularity underscored plebeian discontent. Part of Caesar's estrangement from the other senators had to do with making explicit how corrupt and aloof they were.
>>

 No.244363

>>244252
>I feel like comparing the class character of a classical era slave society to that of an industrialized state in the throes of bourgeois revolution is spurious.
It's a comparison of form, not content. To draw a military analogy of the kind Gramsci liked to use, a pincer movement is still a pincer movement regardless of whether it's carried out by cavalry or tanks. Similarly Caesarism is still Caesarism regardless of whether the forces being mediated are plebs vs optimates or bourgeoise vs proletariat. Caesar mediated between class forces in a similar fashion to Napoleon, governed using comparable mechanisms, etc. However obviously the forces they were mediating between were completely different, and this alters the nature of their regimes.
>In what way can you say Caesar was progressive that Bismark wasnt?
Personally I'm not quite sold on Caesar being progressive, I think Napoleon is a much better example. In Napoleon's case his regime did much to weaken the aristocracy and pave the way for the emergence of bourgeois rule (imposing a uniform legal code, spreading revolutionary ideas, severely weakening aristocratic regimes such as the HRE, etc.) In Bismarck's case, the German Imperial regime did the opposite, preserving the power of the nobility and the monarchy and long delaying the appearance of proper bourgeois democracy in Germany.
>>

 No.244385

>>244346
Thanks comrade
>>

 No.244392

>>244363
> long delaying the appearance of proper bourgeois democracy in Germany
which was one of the reasons, why nazism had such ease coming to power in germany
>>

 No.244424

>>244363
I'd have to take a closer look, but compared to the other Triumvirs or the Senate, I think the argument could be made, though to modern standards I don't think he appears very progressive. Imo he was at least a progressive force in the sense that he permanently ended the political dominance of the Senate.
>>

 No.244796

Oh no chinese scholars have found the political compass! (Turn on subtitles)
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 No.244849

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 No.245516

>>244392

Don't you just love shit adding up?
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 No.245963

File: 1620883768695.jpg (54.81 KB, 507x500, tz5b_ds1Ehvg1pYaUNRcwJLHQ_….jpg)

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 No.245998

Reading some Mao transcripts having talks with diplomats and members of other communist parties in the 60s and 70s from the Wilson Center is pretty interesting.

https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/collection/172/conversations-with-mao-zedong

What stuck out to me is how long-term Mao's thinking was. I read probably two dozen of these so I can't remember which one now, might've been when talking to Kissinger, but Mao says they don't even want Taiwan at present because there are too many counter-revolutionaries there so they're just going to wait a century and then take it by force. Different way of thinking, like what's the rush? He also even says at one point that China will probably end up going in a revisionist direction too for awhile but then correct itself later. I think about that too.

The dislike of the USSR seeking what Mao viewed as hegemony was also a big theme. Putin here almost sounds like Mao. Turn on CC.
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 No.246002

File: 1620885768618.png (213.74 KB, 552x589, mao_taiwan.png)

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 No.246005

>>245998
Putin rocks so fucking hard lmfao
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 No.246027

>>246002
I suspect Chairman Mao said Tien not Shen for what is being translated as God
As in heaven in the sense of Mandate of Heaven

Certain strands of western state philosophy use God in the same way which I suspect is why it is translated thus
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 No.246028

File: 1620887188069.png (56.59 KB, 556x133, 850934859043805.png)

also lol @ this part between Mao and Kissinger
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 No.246034

File: 1620887449124-0.png (217.46 KB, 562x487, mao_polpot_01.png)

File: 1620887449124-1.png (384.94 KB, 552x760, mao_polpot_02.png)

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 No.246088

File: 1620891544725.png (73.02 KB, 569x224, deng.PNG)

He knew.
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 No.246099

>>246005
Imo he should have stopped the backpaddling, but it is clear that his time at the KGB wasn't completely useless. I wouldn't be fooled by his words though even though sometimes their based. He still is a stooge
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 No.246103

>>245516
How do you mean?
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 No.246111

The name is a subtle joke. Sixth Tone's name relates to the number of tones in Mandarin Chinese, but also is stated to carry more metaphorical meaning as well. Mandarin Chinese has four active tones and a fifth dropped tone that has less prominence than the other four. Because of the language's five tones, the publication's name refers to an ideal of expanding beyond traditionally-reported items in Anglophone media; making it the "sixth tone".
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 No.246123

Could something like Huawei happen to Xiaomi?
I fucking hate that to buy a phone you have to be aware of global diplomatic relations now
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 No.246193

>>246123
Not in the same way ZTE got hit once but things quietly returned to normal with it

Huawei is probably getting hit as hard as it is specifically because it's a worker owned co-op

In other news
https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/a-1100-year-old-poem-cost-outspoken-ceo-3-2-billion-20210512-p57r2k.html
>While evocative, the poem offered far from conclusive evidence of Wang’s intentions or thinking. Part of it read: “Before the ashes turned cold, rebellion had arisen east of the mountains.” Yet it was his timing that may rankle officials already examining issues from worker compensation and benefits to its competitive tactics.
>…
>Even before Wang’s post, state media had run regular exposes describing the plight of Meituan’s delivery drivers, helping stoke online outrage. The deaths of several delivery personnel in the rush to meet deadlines drew accusations of exploitation and sparked a debate about the treatment of gig-economy contract employees – much as it had in the US years earlier.

>In one of the most recent efforts, Beijing TV aired a documentary in which a social security official moon-lit as a delivery driver – reportedly earning 41 yuan ($8.13) for 12 hours of work. He later told the Communist Party-affiliated Beijing News his experience drove home the unreasonable demands placed on millions of riders nationwide who helped feed China during the pandemic. Other media have called out the industry’s preoccupation with growing grocery deliveries instead of driving innovation.


https://web.archive.org/web/20210513090305/https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/a-1100-year-old-poem-cost-outspoken-ceo-3-2-billion-20210512-p57r2k.html
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 No.246212

>>246193
We'll see much more of this in the future. Class conflict will rise a lot as a result of people being risen out of poverty.
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 No.246369

>>246193
fucking wow, huawei is a worker owned co-op? nice
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 No.246420

>>246193
>Huawei is probably getting hit as hard as it is specifically because it's a worker owned co-op
Are they really that ideologically committed, or are they just attacking a competent competitor.
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 No.246494

>>246034
fascinating to see Mao use English
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 No.246502

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 No.246712

>>246494
Chinese first read Marx in English, and first translations into Chinese were from English. So it's not that surprising that they were switching to English when using some of the terminology.
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 No.246747

>>246420
The latter ofc. Burgers will support anything whatsoever as long as they think it's beneficial for their empire.
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 No.247057

File: 1620920314343.jpg (1.17 MB, 667x2251, ccp propaganda.jpg)

Go on Baidu, go to street view in almost any Chinese city, and you'll see this kind of propaganda is everywhere. How do people accept this kind of thing? Does anyone even take it seriously?

Here in the US there's at least the illusion of press freedom and the propaganda is so much more subtle, versus in China people are clobbered over the head with it in the most overt way. Wouldn't you want to rebel against authority if your government had such obvious control of society?
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 No.247077

>>247057
They fall for it because the Chinese state is if nothing else actually competent at their jobs and for the most part aren't actually all that authoritarian.
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 No.247149

File: 1620921550541.mp4 (850.52 KB, 634x360, b6erRPJkIGxRSkoy.mp4)

Due to unwillingness to admit a mistake Australia now officially recognizes Taiwan as part of China under the "one country two systems" principle
<Scott Morrison denies his ‘one country two systems’ reference to Taiwan and China was an error
https://archive.is/YDJwT
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/13/scott-morrison-denies-his-one-country-two-systems-reference-to-taiwan-was-an-error
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 No.247198

>>247149
Comrade Morrison?
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 No.247231

>>247057
>Here in the US there's at least the illusion of press freedom and the propaganda is so much more subtle, versus in China people are clobbered over the head with it in the most overt way.
I would much prefer propaganda to be obvious rather than subtle, but as a non-American I can say that you propaganda is very obvious and grotesque to an outsider. It is only natural that someone from within the US has difficulty perceiving it, just like a fish doesn't know what water is.
>Wouldn't you want to rebel against authority if your government had such obvious control of society?
You're mistakenly assuming every authority and government is bad because that's your only experience. But I can sympathize with your error.
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 No.247253

File: 1620923171129.mp4 (2.17 MB, 480x270, JEsH8nqtdzSWEa-Z.mp4)

>>247057
I'm a non-American too and if you think US propaganda is subtle you don't see the forest because of all the trees. US propaganda is one of the most overt and in-your-face things I've ever seen.

Also, I have no problem with this. A banner calling for adhering to socialist ideals? All power to them. How do you think a socialist society would actually look like?
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 No.247371

>>247057
obvious propaganda > subtle propaganda, with subtle prop. you don't even know you're being propagandized
explicit over implicit, honesty over schemind
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 No.247380

>>247057
You are a faggot, and probably also retarded.
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 No.247496

>>247198
The Chinese must have infiltrated his kangaroo pouch and taken control over his mind. Learn more in the next episode of 60 Minutes Australia.
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 No.247786

>>247057
I think most Chinese know government propaganda when they see it because it's direct, upfront and in your face. In some ways I thin this is preferable because when the government fucks up, everyone also knows who is to blame. I also think the government takes a lot effort gauging public opinion about things. I was talking to someone who lives in China and they said the local party committee recently sent them an anonymous questionnaire asking a bunch of questions about what they think of local parks, the quality of products in the local market, the infrastructure, pollution, etc. and the security guard in his building bugged him for two days until he filled it out and turned it in. That would just never happen in the U.S.

Also U.S. propaganda is absurd, but the U.S. is a capitalist society so the actual "government" is not really the official government but a constellation of corporations. This company for example spends twice on lobbying in a single year in the U.S. what the Conservative Party in the U.K. spent in the entire 2019 general election in total (which includes not only advertising but also rallies, press conferences, transport, etc.). And that's not counting the additional money this company spends on everything else including this ad, which was a Super Bowl ad that should have probably cost the company 1/4 of the Conservative Party's total general election budget… for 30 seconds of T.V. time lol

Is this not propaganda?
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 No.247852

Here's some Chinese propaganda. "Go Forward, Communist Party of China." The lyrics are great because there are lines such as "we are not afraid of sacrifice" and "our struggle is our struggle" and "onward, onward, dear comrades!" (which sounds like "qin jing ba, qin jing ba, xi lai de tongzhimen!" Also "Communist Party" sounds like "goonchongdong."

Another interesting fact is that they will literally say this is "propaganda" there from what I've seen, and the word does not have pejorative connotations. There's a big department within the CPC which is directly called the Propaganda Department of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China which is in charge of "ideological work." The abbreviated named is the "Zhongxuanbu" which I can't really translate directly but I think it's like "Chipropunit" or something.

There were some recent articles in U.S. magazines such as one by David Frum recently in The Atlantic saying China is a "paper dragon" for a variety of alleged reason, one being that PLA soldiers spend a lot of time studying communist ideology with political commissars and they sing songs about Mao Zedong at the expense of "quantitative" data. This is perceived from an American perspective as just brainwashing which makes the PLA less effective. While quantitative data is important of course, the Americans tend to be "number heads." It's like McNamara with his computer that is going to tell him how to win the war. The Chinese communists on the other hand have always put a lot of emphasis on political education as well and Mao saw it as necessary. The Vietnamese communists would also spend time on political education sessions before going into battle, and during meetings with Vietnamese commanders, Mao advised them to actually do more of it before battles.

I think it's partly about inculcating a set of motivations to improve morale. Another fun fact is that very little of Chinese doctrine is secret because it's publicly written about and debated by like everyone serving and the commissar attached to each unit is a listener and political educator such that there are stories of platoons objecting to using a certain strategy or whatever and having a back and forth with their guy and ultimately developing some new approach together that's empirically better than whatever the U.S. was doing in similar circumstances
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 No.247872

File: 1620934080992.png (153.05 KB, 742x812, propaganda works-china per….png)

>>247057
>subtle
lmao
>illusion
>Assange is an illusion
Mmmmmph I wonder what would it be MAGA hats and the constant Ben Garrison's depictions on trump to you then.
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 No.247909

File: 1620934588126.mp4 (12.22 MB, 640x480, first_responders.mp4)

In some ways, the fact that Americans don't believe they're consuming propaganda all the time is the scariest thing about the United States. That's what totalitarianism is to me, I feel.

Also, this is a reminder to support our brave first responders!
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 No.247935

>>247872
Why is sweden one of the most sinophobic countries?
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 No.247962

>>247935
Cause muh human rights is like half of their national identity. The perks of being a country that benefits greatly from the global imperialist system without having to get its hands dirty like the US/UK/France
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 No.247979

>>247962
>The perks of being a country that benefits greatly from the global imperialist system without having to get its hands dirty like the US/UK/France
How are they doing that?
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 No.247991

>>247962
>he perks of being a country that benefits greatly from the global imperialist system

How? Sweden is just as imperialist (and socialist) as China is.
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 No.248004

>>247979
>>247991
<Despite Peaceful Reputation, Sweden is a Major Weapons Exporter to Human Rights Abusers
https://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/2/despite_peaceful_reputation_sweden_a_major
<Exports of arms from Sweden in 2020, by country
https://www.statista.com/statistics/865459/exports-of-arms-from-sweden-by-country/
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 No.248007

>>247979
They have the most billionaires per capita of any country besides microstates
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 No.248010

>>247991
lll literally kill you with a tea cup
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 No.248015

File: 1620936509751.png (364.7 KB, 500x327, chadJackMa.png)

>>242705
bro… how did it all end up like this???
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 No.248051

"Without the Communist Party, There Would Be No New China" now in acapella form.
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 No.248065

>>248007
They are good capitalists! They help constructing swedish socialism!
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 No.248067

>>248015
Is this image real??
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 No.248109

File: 1620938034883.jpg (178.44 KB, 1200x1200, image-20170310-19234-1p273….jpg)

>>247872
American politics is like professional wrestling. People get really excited but the wrestlers / politicians are playing according to a script. Or they're allowed to improvise within certain limits while the actual "game" is a business game controlled by big capital. In China, the power as it's expressed is real power and it's direct, not indirect or in the form of a "game" that people are allowed to participate in from the stands.
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 No.248140

File: 1620938641633.jpg (583.51 KB, 2047x1535, spot_the_free_press.jpg)

Why is China so afraid of a free press?
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 No.248149

>>248140
Free press is a code word for CIA disinfo
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 No.248198

>>248140
Why is the West so glued to this retarded Habermasian idea that the media is a sufficient and necessary manifestation of "democracy", "public opinion", "consensus"? Where has that got you, anon?
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 No.248201

>>248198
Without a free (within limits of course, as all freeze peach is in reality) exchange and debate of ideas and policies, how can you have any sort of democracy? Proletarian or otherwise?
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 No.248202

File: 1620940153432-0.jpg (57.2 KB, 824x550, jimmy_lai_arrest_hong_kong….jpg)

File: 1620940153432-1.jpg (38.3 KB, 287x355, ECHVYG-U4AAAJNZ.jpg)

>>248140
Because the newspaper at the bottom is an anti-commie rag, son. Or more specifically it's the paper owned by the Hong Kong billionaire art collector and clothing retailer Jimmy Lai, a personal friend of George W. Bush's deputy secretary of defense Paul Wolfowitz (who was also president of the World Bank). Lai is in jail now since the CPC moved in and started cleaning house. Apple Daily is like the Hong Kong version of Fox News or the Daily Mail and has previously run ads depicting mainland Chinese as locusts.

It's all propaganda and "freedom of the press" does not exist in reality. A ruling group or clique of businessmen or political party always uses their position and material power to influence and/or control news organizations to spread their ideology and make it dominant in the society. The mainstream media in the West today is also the public opinion tool of large corporate conglomerates which own the major media outlets, which then penetrate and shape the values of mainstream society to the extent that even many anons on this Romanian surface-to-air missile simulator enthusiast forum are shaped by the same values (often unknowingly) or react / respond to what is being talked about in the mainstream media; i.e. they set the agenda.

International news reports too are basically monopolized by Western news agencies, so most international news is screened according to the political views, economic interests and cultural traditions ​​of developed Western countries – which also apply double standards, one-sided coverage, biased coverage, or even deliberate misinformation. The belief that they're "objective" or "impartial" is their ideology.

Marx:

>“The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas.”
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 No.248207

>>248201
>how can we have this spook without this other spook
Not to sound like an egoist but its amazing to me the left has to yet to move beyond the nebulous of democracy, which was invented by a slave society
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 No.248208

>>247057
China is beating the West. what is there to “fall for”? It’s you liberals that are falling into psychosis about it.
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 No.248215

>>248201
There is much more debate in China than in the US. Which is one of the reasons China is more competent and better at confronting reality than the headless chicken US who prefers to sniff its own chicken farts.
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 No.248218

>>248215
>more debate in China
expound on that point, i'm curious
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 No.248224

>>248207
>beyond the nebulous of democracy, which was invented by a slave society
Most liberal democracies are modelled after the roman republic and not after athenian democracy. Besides, can't non-socialist modes of production come up with good concepts?
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 No.248228

>>248224
so it was modeled by slave state B instead of slave state A? what’s your point?
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 No.248230

>>247231
>as a non-American I can say that you propaganda is very obvious and grotesque
>>247253
>US propaganda is one of the most overt and in-your-face things I've ever seen
>>247371
>>247909

That's my point. 90% of Americans don't know anything about manufacturing consent, don't know how the CIA has assets in media outlets around the world, don't know how the military collaborates with Hollywood, don't know that it's all owned by like 5 billionaires, etc. They don't realize they're being propagandized, therefore the propaganda is far more effective.
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 No.248235

>>248140
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinion

>The CIA currently maintains a network of several hundred foreign individuals around the world who provide intelligence for the CIA and at times attempt to influence opinion through the use of covert propaganda. These individuals provide the CIA with direct access to a large number of newspapers and periodicals, scores of press services and news agencies, radio and television stations, commercial book publishers, and other foreign media outlets.


That was in 1976. Now, MSNBC has on-air analysts that are CIA.
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 No.248236

>>248228
>Besides, can't non-socialist modes of production come up with good concepts?
This

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