Tomorrow a huge protest will be held in the capital of Serbia, Belgrade, protesting the government’s refusal to accept the demands made by the students, as well as protesting against general incompetence and corruption. From the student to the teacher, worker and pensioner, war veterans and children all around Serbia will gather together in this protest.
Is this really it? Some policemen announced that they won’t be going to work tomorrow and that they have no intention of beating up children. This might be the only chance that the opposition gets to forcefully remove the president from office.
The implications are obvious; a color revolution is in the works. Unlike the protests in Greece, the Serbian protests have no class character. The left is very weak, and the protest attendees range from neonazis to liberals and communists (most likely due to the fact the protests have been organized “apolitically”). The situation in Serbia is very volatile, and the validity of these protests need to be questioned more seriously, since no matter how much they deny it, this reeks of liberal infighting. Only time will tell what the consequences of these past few months will be, and whether this will be another October 5th or just a failed mass movement.
>>2188245Please tell me you’re not going to call anyone that doesn’t side with a pro EU or Russian kleptocratic government a fucking nazi
You just love to make yourself and every other socialist lose don’t you?
>>2188315>It’s an anti government protest in a semi peripheral countryOkay so you're just making an assumption without any analysis.
>the only one of those in the past 20 years that wasn’t CIA backed was in YemenWhat about the farmer's protest in India? Anti-austerity demonstrations in Greece? Constitutional reform protests in Chile? Those are just off the top of my head. You can't seriously take a position based on such wild assumptions.
>>2188294to be pro-western, pro-business is not enough. One has to pathologically RUSSOPHOBE.
Hell, Putin himself has been pro-western for decades and is still pro-business.
>>2188330Not an argument. "All demonstrations are ops until proven otherwise" is an insane thing to unironically believe. It basically denies the existence of class struggle and turns into mindless tailism for shitty goverments in the semi-periphery. Serbia has a neoliberal, NATO-adjacent government yet here you are defending it.
>>2188332Meds.
>>2188353>putting all the problems in the umbrella term of “corruption”, as well as using rhetoric such as “fighting for a just and functioning system”Sure, I'll concede that those could be indicators, but I'm still not seeing anything in Serbian policy that would make them a target in the first place. Plus there are many other indicators that are missing like waving EU and Western flags, signs in English, calls for privatization, calls for EU and NATO membership, anti-Russian rhetoric, vocal anti-communism, etc. It could just be that they lack class consciousness and so are focused on the wrong issues like vague "corruption" instead of class struggle.
>>2188354>It’s literally being led by the intelligentsiaHamas was founded by intelligentsia.
>waving LGBT flagsI don't see any in OP's picture.
>>2188373The irony is that multipolarists will suppooort anything
but a revolution.
>>2188509>but didn't the students already back off all actual demands like free education and only leave liberal bullshitIf you have a source then post it. Last I heard they were still demanding more education funding and social spending, i.e. they were anti-austerity.
>Are you trying to fall for it again?I haven't said I support the protests since its not really clear where they are going. I'm still waiting to see what happens.
>>2188932 (me)
in like two* faculties
not a flood not a flood
>>2189298>>Sabo and Bloodgasm are on the scene to remind everyone that despite the prevalence of US interference with pretty much every social unrest (organic or not) you can't prove this is the same situationNot what I said. I asked for any evidence at all that this is an op, and gave specific examples of indicators that were present in other obvious ops (Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc) that nobody has been able to reproduce here. Nobody can even point to a reason why the US would want to remove the current Serbian government, which has been highly cooperative with Western interests. I'm not asking for hard proof, but even just the telltale signs which don't seem to be here.
>and therefore skepticism over the origins, motivations, likely outcomes of this unrestSkepticism about those issues is fine, but people are saying outright that this is a colour revolution despite openly admitting that they have no basis on which to think this apart from assumptions.
>>2189303>>2189298Also
>despite the prevalence of US interference with pretty much every social unrest This is a ridiculous and laughable overstatement. Again, was the US behind the Indian farmer's protests? The anti-Zionist demonstrations in Europe? Were they behind the Yellow Vests in France and anti-NATO demonstrations in Greece? Get a grip man, the US is only going to sponsor movements that will advance their interests. If you're going to argue that this is an op then you at least need to show how this does so, even though the demonstrators hardly seem friendly to the EU and NATO while the Serbian government is.
>>2189303>>2189310You're putting the horse before the cart, because what you're essentially asking for is proof that the discontentment and unrest is some kind of USAID funded psyop, but that's not the claim about what colour revolutions are.
>the US is only going to sponsor movements that will advance their interestsThe unrest can be a end as well as the means, if the imperialists can't place a specific kind of leadership in charge of a nation that isn't considered within it's sphere of influence, then simply instigating enough social unrest that long term stability and development becomes difficult and becoming a regional player unlikely is still a worthwhile goal.
>The anti-Zionist demonstrations in Europe?>Were they behind the Yellow Vests in France >and anti-NATO demonstrations in Greece?Europe in total is a threat to US hegemony in the region and historically was during the immediate post-war period and early cold war, it really shouldn't be beyond even your imagination let alone your capacity for logic to see that the US benefits from not having long-term relatively popular European leadership (I may remind you of the scandal over CIA spying of the Merkel government in Germany) and is willing to utilise movements
against US interests more broadly *if* they also believe such movements won't succeed at anything other than creating the desired social unrest
>>2189320>because what you're essentially asking for is proof that the discontentment and unrest is some kind of USAID funded psyop, but that's not the claim about what colour revolutions areThen what are they? And why should we oppose them if they aren't a pro-imperialist psyop instead of capitalizing on popular anger?
>if the imperialists can't place a specific kind of leadership in charge of a nation that isn't considered within it's sphere of influence, then simply instigating enough social unrest that long term stability and development becomes difficultSerbia is within the Western sphere of influence, they're a NATO partner country and have participated in Western proxy wars in Ukraine and Palestine, supplying arms to both the AFU and IDF. The current government also supports EU membership and follows a neoliberal economic policy. The US has no reason to want them gone.
>Europe in total is a threat to US hegemony in the regionDelusional, Europe is a collection of US vassals and loyal auxiliaries. NATO and the EU is the cornerstone of US hegemony in Europe and the current government is amenable to both, as well as Western investment and business interests.
>>2189328>Then what are they?Opportunism, the colour revolutions of '89 were also opportunism for the US in the sense that there was legit discontentment over the economic fall out of the liberal reforms at the time.
>And why should we oppose them if they aren't a pro-imperialist psyop instead of capitalizing on popular anger?Because the outcome isn't what anyone on the streets inevitably wants, I don't think people in '89 fully understood what they wanted but it certainly wasn't the shock therapy of the 90s and it's very unlikely that anyone in Kiev for Euromaidan wanted the extreme militarism and destruction of human rights that would block EU membership but their movement resulted in.
Therein lies the problem, you're assuming that if a load of people from various regions, with various political affiliations and of various class character all get bussed into the city centers (how such disparate groups organise this, welp..) have the same level of agency as a revolutionary proletariat.
>Serbia is within the Western sphere of influenceNo, this is delusion. They are a manufacturer of weapons to Soviet specifications, thus an economic competitor to the US MIC by offering (alongside Russia and China) modern solutions compatible with the legacy stockpiles of Soviet origin many nations still have, rather than having to scrap it all to buy a whole new military essentially to the only other specification out there, NATO specifications.
That Serbia navigates hostility and negotiates continued tolerance of its existence by providing concessions to both NATO and Russia doesn't make them in the western sphere of influence.
>NATO partner countryYou're referring to the Partnership for Peace, Russia is also a part of that.
>The current government also supports EU membership And they're not allowed to have it because they can't also become NATO members when that's a package deal in 99% of cases.
>follows a neoliberal economic policy. That's not a diktat from Washington, that's just the prescribed method for removing welfare privileges and concessions to the proletariat in the aftermath of the cold war
>Europe is a collection of US vassals and loyal auxiliaries.And they stay that way by never having the stability to compete with the US in any meaningful way, by various methods, including inflaming social unrest.
>>2189345>have the same level of agency as a revolutionary proletariat. No, but you're not going to establish a revolutionary proletarian organization if you never interact with them or build upon their existing discontent. Class consciousness doesnt emerge spontaneously, and while it is absent class antagonism will express itself in a malformed way. Its the job of communists to change that. That means going to where these sites of malformed struggle are (e.g. unfocused protests against corruption) and educating/organizing them to produce class consciousness and a proletarian party. You certainly won't build one by rushing to the defense of every shitty right wing government that workers have legitimate beef with. The comparisons with 1989 are not apt, since those were socialist governments actually worth defending. This is a bourgeois government that needs to be eventually overthrown.
>They are a manufacturer of weapons to Soviet specifications, thus an economic competitor to the US MIC by offering (alongside Russia and China) modern solutions compatible with the legacy stockpiles of Soviet origin many nations still haveVirtually all ex-Warsaw Pact states still manufacture Soviet-designed weapons and modern variants thereof.
>That Serbia navigates hostility and negotiates continued tolerance of its existence by providing concessions to both NATO and Russia doesn't make them in the western sphere of influence.No but openly siding with the US in the main current geopolitical conflicts does. Again, they are already providing weapons to Ukraine and Israel.
>You're referring to the Partnership for Peace, Russia is also a part of that.Russia was also a major power that could conceivably post a threat to US interests, which is why it became a target. Serbia is not.
>And they're not allowed to have it because they can't also become NATO members when that's a package deal in 99% of casesI'm sure Vucic would join NATO if it wouldn't result in him being lynched by his own people.
>That's not a diktat from WashingtonYes it is, colour revolutions are always accompanied by privatization, concessions to international finance capital, etc. However Serbia has already granted these.
>And they stay that way by never having the stability to compete with the US in any meaningful way, by various methods, including inflaming social unrest.According to this logic communists should never support any potentially disruptive action in Europe because it might help the US.
>>2189384Georgia didnt send 880mil $in weapons and ammo to Ukraine
Why do faggots think that Vucic is some sort of anti imperialist
He wants to cuck to the west
>>2189394I'm saying if you think that leaders with subimperialist aspirations (what you call cucked because the internet has permanently deformed your brain) are safe from western influence and that's a good reason not to even consider the idea that's pretty retarded because there are loads of examples of it being used to pressure them.
You prolly say the free Syria ppl didn't get western backing bc "Cuckssad" was trying to play both sides. It's just handwaving.
>>2189382The protesters did a good job at alienating the peasants and the proletariat however. The uneducated layers of Serbian society have become a punchline for the middle class led protesters, who instead of sympathizing with the most exploited class, which is usually bought for pathetic amounts of money and cheap sandwiches.
What does the opposition offer to them? Neither money or respect. At least with the party they are guaranteed a job and when they join a party led protest they might even get a little money. Why should they join the protests? They are already seen as a joke to them, a bunch of toothless peasants who can’t even spell properly.
Are these the people we are to support? The ones actively alienating themselves from the most important needs of the people? Instead of uplifting the exploited proletariat they instead punch down from their ivory towers, showing their superiority. Out of all the valid criticisms they could have made against the government and system, they chose none. All the revolutionary potential is as of now gone
>>2189419Why don't you ask the EU and US politicians whining about Serbia lol? There are plenty of things leaders can do which are decidedly unbased that still piss off the US.
Again my point is not to dismiss any ideas but to push back on the dismissal of investigation because "Vuvic isn't based enough it's all completely organic", that's just a dumb rhetorical game
>>2189431So because he has allies he cannot have enemies? And the evidence is posts? I already mentioned wannabe subimperialists trying for playing both sides can still be treated to this kind of political pressure.
I don't really feel like getting into a screenshot war with Gaynazi that is some Plato's cave bullshit. There are loads of NATOids calling him a "Putin cockholster" go look it up.
Doing reality invention on an imageboard because your whole rhetorical strategy is to pick a position and never admit anything contrary to it is kind of childish
>>2189382>According to this logic communists should never support any potentially disruptive action in Europe because it might help the US.Unironically yes, if it's not a revolutionary movement driven by class conciousness then it ends up being exploitable, as we've seen repeatedly.
>That means going to where these sites of malformed struggle are (e.g. unfocused protests against corruption) and educating/organizing them to produce class consciousness and a proletarian party. Yes, but this isn't something to count on or necessarily see as an opportunity, because it can already be too late by this point. Again, after the Euromaidan was usurped by the US, the installed government outlawed the communist party and arrested or even murdered its members.
>you certainly won't build one by rushing to the defense of every shitty right wing government that workers have legitimate beef with.You keep trying to assert that this is the point I'm making and it's an attempt to turn the situation into a zero-sum game into either supporting the Serbian government wholeheartedly or supporting whatever may come out of disorganised unrest. That's being undisciplined, especially when you're handwaving away historical precedent and replacing it with absolutely nothing other than this brow-beating.
I am actually on the side of the workers, but I think that the current Serbian government are a known quantity, I think that's a better situation to be organising in rather than trying to shout over the disorganised masses and the US propaganda machine when *something else* is already in motion that may result in extremely unfavourable conditions for organising.
>>2189416> just that it's really ridiculous and unproductive to assume that any and all unrest is a glow op until proven otherwise.Again, that's not what is being said and I've seen you throughout multiple threads getting very irate at the concept that disorganised social unrest is vulnerable to hijacking without ever being able to explain
why, instead repeating the same gotcha attempt of misunderstanding the point and demanding people explain how all discontentment and social unrest
originates with a psyop.
>>2189505>Again, that's not what is being saidIt's been said explicitly ITT several times:
>>2188315<It’s an anti government protest in a semi peripheral country, the only one of those in the past 20 years that wasn’t CIA backed was in Yemen>>2188319<all “mass movements” unless explicitly proven otherwise should be assumed to be funded by the same few actors>>2188349<Are the students demanding the government cease marching lock step with the west, to end the persecution of Russia and her people? No Then it’s a color revolution by default>getting very irate at the concept that disorganised social unrest is vulnerable to hijacking.Of course its vulnerable to hijacking, the question is by whom and whether there is evidence to support an accusation. People have pointed out some valid criticisms of this movement such as the lack of class consciousness, not enough organization, it not being sufficiently proletariat, etc. I don't take issue with any of these critiques, the only position I oppose is the immediate assumption that this is a colour revolution without any analysis or supporting evidence.
>>2188483yeah is just a incredibly unpopular goverment getting hate from all sectors of the population due to their sheer incompetence
ofc the leftypoltard morons itt can't wrap their heads around this
>>2189523>Of course its vulnerable to hijackingAnd that's the important part
>the question is by whom and whether there is evidence to support an accusation.Is an irrelevancy and serves only to directly the conversation to where you took it which is handwaving away that vulnerability, handwaving away historical precedent even with very recent cases, brow-beating about "rushing to the defence of every shitty right wing government" against the workers, lecturing about how the time for action is when action has already been organised by some other entity of unknown motivations.
You're trying to say "Yes, but" when there isn't a but here. Disorganised movements are vulnerable to hijacking, disorganised movements arranging mass protests are not likely to be wholly organic even if the motivations of each individual are, there is a historical precedent of the US organising social unrest that no single domestic movement was capable of arranging, it is true that the US broadly benefits from every other nation, friend-or-foe, living in chaos.
Saying, therefore, that such movements are something to be sceptical of and to express remorse that despite the discontentment, Marxism isn't a uniting philosophy for any of these movements and they're just a mishmash of any and all discontentment from all angles like
>>2189546 suggests it is, is natural. To look at this situation and consider it bullish is misplaced optimism if-not just simple opportunism.
>>2189556Again, with what evidence are you handwaving away recent historical precedence? Why are you such a stickler for a leaked email from the CIA specifically discussing starting and/or usurping this particular movement? Why are you so fixated on the removal of the current government over what will actually replace it, when we don't know what that is?
>The absolute state of this placeI was waiting for you to actually use the phrase "vulgar anti-Americanism" to say the same thing
>>2189564>Again, with what evidence are you handwaving away recent historical precedence? Why are you such a stickler for a leaked email from the CIA specifically discussing starting and/or usurping this particular movement? No, I've listed several characteristics which pointed to previous colour revolutions here
>>2189404 and here
>>2188356Thus "historical precedence" argument you're making doesn't stand up to scrutiny, because in previous cases there was actual evidence indicating Western involvement. Plus the targeted governments were actual obstacles to US interests in identifiable ways. I don't buy this crap about them causing chaos just for its own sake tbh. Serbia is hardly a competitor to the US worthy of sabotage as an end in itself.
>I was waiting for you to actually use the phrase "vulgar anti-Americanism" to say the same thingVulgar anti-Americanism is totally justified though. My issue isn't with a general multipolarist outlook, but jumping to conclusions about what these protests represent.
>>2189568>No, I've listed several characteristics which pointed to previous colour revolutions here >>2189404 and here >>2188356That's all circumstantial, it neither adds nor detracts from the damning history the CIA has for regime change which have all had varying aesthetics in each case because they're good at their job of manipulating discontent regardless of what the underlying conditions are.
>because in previous cases there was actual evidence indicating Western involvement.Unironically claiming it's a colour revolution only when there are signs written in English, is probably the silliest thing I've ever read on this imageboard, so silly I actually don't feel like insulting you over it as you surely deserve.
>Plus the targeted governments were actual obstacles to US interests in identifiable ways. I don't buy this crap about them causing chaos just for its own sake tbhFrom the bias of only looking at the concessions it makes towards the US/NATO and not those to Russia, but again I assume this is just extreme silliness rather than wilful ingeniousness.
>https://www.politico.eu/article/president-aleksandar-vucic-serbia-vote-in-favor-un-resolution-ukraine-mistake/The obstacle to US interests is not fully obeying US diktats, more importantly, the Serbian state has not fomented an anti-Russian society, where the leader has to say Sorry for "accidentally" voting
against Russia. That these protests do not have teenagers running around with English signs saying "Fuck Russia" *is* a coup-able offence in of itself.
But I suppose you'll now tell me you don't buy this crap that the US needs total domination of narrative in any nation in its sphere of influence, that Serbia *is* in the US sphere of influence but Washington has just gracefully allowed it to continue having a pro-Russian sentiment amongst its citizenry and allows it to contradict and disagree with US narratives at the state-level.
At this point, it's just a race to the bottom of the barrel of what "buts" you can come up with for "Yes, but".
>>2189578>That's all circumstantialHow is it circumstantial? They're all clear indicators of the pro-Western orientation of these movements. They're facts weighing in favour of a colour revolution, and yet here virtually all of them are absent.
>Unironically claiming it's a colour revolution only when there are signs written in EnglishI didn't claim that, I said that they're an indicator, one of many and almost none of which are here. Colour revolution movements often display signs in English because they're audience is the West not their own country. It's part of a tactic to manufacture consent. Meanwhile Western media barely mentions these demonstrations at all, whereas with Ukraine, Venezuela, and Hong Kong they loudly amplified it. Yet another missing indicator.
>From the bias of only looking at the concessions it makes towards the US/NATO and not those to RussiaTheir concessions to Russia are insignificant. What? They voted with them on some meaningless resolution at the UN? Damn that totally makes up for supplying the Banderites with ammunition to kill Russian soldiers. This is grasping at straws.
>>2188294>Serbia has a very pro-Western, pro-business government though.They haven't been condemning Hamas, Russia and China loudly enough and have even been promoting trade with Russia and China. Given the conditions in Eastern Europe, the history, and the exposure of USAID fomenting shit in Ukraine and Romania
weeks ago it's ridiculous to argue that this perfectly timed shit is organic.
From what I know
>students denounced any kind of expert/transitional government by the fake opposition>students denounced TV Serbia's comment by an "Israeli" historian how their bloodied hands are akin to Hamas>demonstrators chase away people with EU or Ukrainian flags>the two neoliberal student organizations (Stav and SviĆe) which are the youth branch of PSG (Movement of Fre Citizens, EU neolibs) have been shunned from the blockades>students are not calling for any political party or structure to take the lead but are calling for citizens to themselves organize meetings (zbor) to organize in a plenum (soviet) fashion>students are left and left-liberal, but Belgrade plenums are more radical than Novi Sad plenumsNow the demands to fight corruption, for the institutions to start working etc. which are popular slogans are NOT the student demands. Here are some threads where Serbanons discuss the situtation.
https://archive.ph/DJ38dhttps://web.archive.org/web/20250316073125/https://leftypol.org/leftypol/res/2128645.htmlhttps://web.archive.org/web/20250316073354/https://leftypol.org/leftypol/res/2157647.htmlThese are the demands
1. Publication of documentation related to the reconstruction of the canopy in Novi Sad.
2. Dismissal of the indictments filed against the illegally detained students.
3. Filing criminal charges against participants in violence against students.
4. Determining the identity of the persons who participated in the violence and severely sanctioning them, regardless of whether they are employed in the private or state sector.
5. Increasing the budget for financing state faculties by 20%.
None of them have been fulfilled. 1, 3, 4 collapse the regime, 5 was blocked to be passed by the fake opposition when they tried to stage a farsical Jan 6th a few days ago. It this regard the demands are very good. They cannot be fulfilled without the SNS regime collapsing.
Quoting a previous thread for all the dopamine addicts and happening whores:
<This is an actual honest to god mass movement that is organized around soviets (without communists, lol) and it has been recognized as almost equal to the state. People are calling for the plenum to be instutionalized in the laws of the Republic. <Sure, it's still not revolutionary in the sense that they're going to overthrow the state and establish a proletarian dictatorship, but seeing this development after 30 years of capitalist counterrevolution is a great signal everywhere that the movement is not dead and that the soviet form is the only form that can battle a bourgeois state.>>2189404The colour revolutions of the early/mid-2000s didn't have these, they did have the narrative of protesters having no particular organisation or affiliation other than just a general outrage over corruption and incompetence that conveniently opens the door to pretty much any kind of leadership coming to power, that always inconveniently means the pro-NATO, pro-USAID, anti-Communist and anti-Russian party comes to power.
You have colour revolutions in order to ensure a sharply anti-Russian, anti-Communist, zealously pro-Western institution reaction develops towards any attempts for a nation (like Georgia) to make independent and self-interested developments, i.e not making moves towards EU and NATO membership.
That all those orange lines happened in Georgia recently is not an indicator of a colour revolution now, but that there was a successful colour revolution previously.
>>2189839No, Vuvic is the same kind of "both Moscow and Washington" leader that was common to the post-Soviet, nationalist governments that were the target of colour revolutions.
The purpose of the colour revolution is to replace "both Moscow and Washington" with "sharply anti-Russian and zealously pro-West" which, if successful, gets expressed by re-writting the history of the 90s and early-2000s where the shock therapy economics that created the poverty, corruption and apparent incompetence that people are protesting against, were not at the suggestion of Western political advisors, the party instigating such economics were not receiving funding from the West and the apparent incompetence was not actually just the West picking at the bones of these post-Soviet states.
Instead, "both Moscow and Washington" actually just meant "Moscow" and Russia was solely funding and propping up and rigging elections for these corrupt leaders because, Russia, right? That they were broadly suffering the same issues in the 90s is irrelevant, or actually completely relevant in proving that Russia was just
infecting other nations with their Russian-ness, that shock therapy economics was a diktat from Moscow and not the US and it's good-old Russian Chauvanism that means ALL Eastern European nations have to have the same issues as Russia.
So, because Vuvic is still saying "both Moscow and Washington", he is still a target for a colour revolution.
>>2188646Because
>>2189818 no thinking required
>>2189860That's all fine, the only thing I'm trying to explain to the thread is *why* this
could be the target of the US trying to organise the disparate groups and turn it into a colour revolution and thus disorganised social unrest is something to be cautious over.
>>2189864Maybe a more telling indication how mature these students are is this. A 3hr blockade of three bridges in Novi Sad on Feb 2nd was voted for by the Plenums and there were formal student delegations sent from Belgrade and other cities. During the walk there, the FFUNS plenum (at that time mostly influenced by Stav/SviĆe; neolib student youth) voted to extend the bridge blockade to 24hr, tried to sneak in some dubious speakers. Of course, when news broke out, FFBG plenum denounced the speakers and did not join the 24hr blockade. Other faculties followed. The opposition planned to hold a 'citizens plenum' on the bridge then. They (ProGlas) probably expected they could present the idea of an expert government to the plenum and then have it vote for it. But this failed. The people shunned them, there was (is) a power struggle in NS and nothing happened. But after some month, people in Bogatić started declaring 'zbors' and discussing the issues of Rio Tinto's interest in Mačva etc. and chased the representatives of Rio Tinto out of the municipal building. There there were other sponantenous zbors organized in some places. Only then did the students start pushing this idea of 'citizen plenums' aka zbors. So it's really good what's happening. The 4 month long blockade of higher institutions (can you imagine??) is not getting subverted, and it's seeping among the workers. Say, for example, there were strikes of GSP (public city transportation), ESP (electrodistribution), city farmacies (in Kragujevac and in Belgrade) and there was student support and solidarity with them, but not with the fake opposition. It's good, it's good. Everything is happening always.
>>2189868Well that does sound a lot more positive and has more cause for optimism, I assume you are Serbian or otherwise have more intimate knowledge what's happening on the streets and that is very useful context, sorely missing from this thread so far.
By Sabo's admission and from my own admission, the discussion thus far hasn't been towards the particularities of this movement, but more abstractly about supporting disorganised movements in general.
Ultimately, I'm arguing against the take ITT that seems to be "Social unrest is better than nothing" and the details of that (like what is proposed to replace the current government and are the protesters likely to have the agency to successfully achieve their own regime change) are irrelevant because *anything* is better than a neolib government and if you don't agree with that then it's because you're simping for and defending said neolib government.
In all honesty, I suspect that take comes from the complete demoralisation of anons ITT to understand the chances of any of these movements being Marxist in nature are essentially nil and thus ANY movement is exciting by default. For anti-campists, the overthrow of a corrupt government with a western installed one in a colour revolution isn't
good but it's not the end of the world (if you ignore historical precedent of course), so it's worth the risk to them, especially when they've made the case that the outcome of this or that political manoeuvring "proves" the outgoing regime were already cucks to the US and NATO anyway.
>>2189549Bitch you just want a movement already organized from nothing instead of actually trying to meet the needs of the proletariat
< but they aren't prolesSoon to be proles, students, educators and a bunch of micio macho proles
>>2189556>>2189556No wonder staff wants new blood
>>2189872>>2189873And thank you Moffin' for jumping in and quickly proving these points
>In all honesty, I suspect that take comes from the complete demoralisation of anons ITT to understand the chances of any of these movements being Marxist in nature are essentially nil and thus ANY movement is exciting by default. >because *anything* is better than a neolib government and if you don't agree with that then it's because you're simping for and defending said neolib government.for me.
>>2189881>who will soon become proletariansyou just made my argument for me, skipped right from my meme reply to what i was about to say, congrats
wake me up when it's a proletarian movement, should be soonTM if your estimate is correct
>>2189879For being mildly interested in a movement which is movimg against the famous anti-westerner Vuvic the multipolarista? Lol
You idiots are stuck thinking that class struggle is lead between the great man of the world with the large masses of people simply passively standing by, not incapable of wants, forming ideas or organizing ability.
>>2188366> Serbia is like the no. 2 arms supplier to Israel behind the U.S., or pretty close to it.>>2189328> Serbia is within the Western sphere of influence, they're a NATO partner country and have participated in Western proxy wars in Ukraine and Palestine, supplying arms to both the AFU and IDF. The current government also supports EU membership and follows a neoliberal economic policy. The US has no reason to want them gone. >>2189885>ok it's not a proletarian movement but le masses brooh god i'm getting flashbacks again
DEIXA TER COPA, PAGA A NOVA PASSAGEM DO ÔNIBUS, NÃO APOIA O IMOEACHMENT NÃO NÃO NÃO NÃÃÃÃÃOOOOOOO!!!!!!! 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
>>2189886you've backed yourself into a corner and now you're accusing me of holding your position LMAO
you just said that they "will become proletarian themselves in a few years", are you not claiming they don't fit in a prole-bourg split unless you say they are bourg? it's either that or you backpedal from what you claimed earlier
>>2189885>For being mildly interested in a movementNo, for being an undisciplined lib. Undisciplined because you care more about action than outcome, a lib because if that outcome was a colour revolution you'd apparently not consider that a bad thing (because of the aforementioned western bias).
The evidence is in this concern trolling for Serbia's supposedly dedicated support for Israel and Ukraine based on the weapons they sell on the open market ending up in those warzones, the way this is described by Vuvic (if a quote won't make you projectile vomit) is
>“This is a part of our economic revival and important for us. Yes, we do export our ammunition,” he said in an interview. “We cannot export to Ukraine or to Russia . . . but we have had many contracts with Americans, Spaniards, Czechs, others. What they do with that in the end is their job.>“Even if I know [where the ammunition ends up], that’s not my job. My job is to secure the fact that we deal legally with our ammunition, that we sell it . . . I need to take care of my people, and that’s it. That’s all I can say. We have friends in Kyiv and in Moscow. These are our Slav brothers.”There is absolutely no reason why a nation within the US sphere of influence would need to put weapon supplies through third-parties, nations that are in NATO did not have to jump through such hoops, in fact nations who are in the US sphere of influence directly donate their equipment to Ukraine with the promise that they can *buy* US produced replacements.
If there was a pro-US colour revolution in Serbia (that we're not supposed to care about if we're not simps for Vuvic or look to historical precedent on) the only way that situation changes is that Serbia drops the pretence of neutrality and supplies Ukraine directly and not for the market rate of those weapons, the supplies become moral rather than economic in nature.
So the only reason to make this point that Serbia are
already in the US sphere of influence, is to essentially already pre-justify a pro-US colour revolution if one were to come out of this (despite insistences that's an impossibility until proven otherwise), on the basis that it's a sidewards step geopolitically and the unconscious bias towards the west presumes the relevant outcome is more political freedom (Vuvic is a strongman!).
Again, historical precedent is that nations that fall to extremely pro-West and extremely anti-Russian governments also become extremely anti-Communist, going so far as to ban parties, smear or arrest activists as foreign agents and the dismantling of their Communist legacy and providing a reappraisal of Nazi collaborators as brave heroes fighting against the scourge of communism.
>>2189902People itt think that any mass movement automatically has the position to gain class consciousness. How? From the start this was a middle class movement which did all in its power to make it an us vs them dynamic, (“us” being the well educated and well meaning citizens who want a functioning government vs the “them”, the stupid undereducated masses of people easily bought by the government). Fine, good, the government is a neoliberal shithole which should be ousted from power, but the conditions for less of a western backed regime to be put in charge don’t exist, especially since the extent of the critique of the government were limited to Christian flags and anti eu and anti nato flags being flown on the streets on the protests, which as many have realized on here, is just an expected thing to see from Serbs and not a sign of actual anti neoliberalism. Not to mention the fact that N1 (news network under the control of CNN) has become widely the only accepted news media, which people believe report (relatively) unbiasedly. What will this mean for the working class? Nothing, see
>>2189411 >>2189917>People itt think that any mass movement automatically has the position to gain class consciousness. How?An extremely prolific (and extremely unsuccessful) tactic amongst the western intelligentsia is supporting a centrist party or movement to power, in order to then "pull them" left despite their victory with centrist policies giving them the legitimacy and mandate to ignore left-wing pressure groups.
The fundamental misunderstanding this intelligentsia has, is in believing that with enough "democracy", the capitalist class will listen to and respect the opinions of the intelligentsia as much as they listen and respect themselves when talking in the halls of academia.
When the capitalist class turn out to *not* care what the intelligentsia thinks when it contradicts profiteering and upholding the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, well that's because they're still not democratic enough and they need the centre of democracy (the US and/or Europe) to help them get the required level of democracy by force. When the proletariat and peasant class do not agree that academic idealism understands the material realities of their experience, well then those people are just stupid and should learn where their place is when the ackshually educated people are talking.
>>2189902> you care more about action than outcome, a lib because if that outcome was a colour revolution you'd apparently not consider that a bad thing?????????????????????????????
You're the one who already assumes what is going on is a color revolution, despite the tipical telltale signs not being there and showing no proof whatsoever.
> The evidence is in this concern trolling for Serbia's supposedly dedicated support for Israel and Ukraine based on the weapons they sell on the open market ending up in those warzones, the way this is described by Vuvic (if a quote won't make you projectile vomit) is< The poor little dungus has no choice but to end up selling weapons to genocidersYou could use this shitty defense for literally any military contractor on this forsaken planet
>>2189937AK patterned Zastava weapons are prolific around the globe being used by paramilitaries and terrorist orgs with it not really being worth investigating how exactly they came into possession of them because there are loads of AK clones that end up in the same hands and buying weapons from a company like Zastava legitimately via third parties and then distributing them via mysterious channels and less legal enterprises is just how the black market for weapons works.
If Zastava sells a crate of guns to third party, who then sells them on the black market, that then gets procured by a shadowy organisation to provide a group like ISIS with weapons that are supposed to be untraceable back to said organisation (other than they were Serbian made) and those weapons get turned on the US or against US interests, the last thing the US wants is an inquiry that may reveal the shadowy organisation was American without being able to blame Serbia for the entire black market and how it's used.
Essentially the same thing happens for Serbian guns to end up in Ukraine, but this time there is a vested interest in trying to make a strong connection between Serbia and the guns that arrive in Ukraine to split relations between Serbia and Russia, they're just glossing over that seemingly Vuvic has name dropped the US, Spain and the Czech Republic as already having the contacts to purchase Serbian guns
for some reason despite not using those guns themselves. You just have to pretend the entire network of the international black market for weapons dealers just stopped existing during this particular war, pretend that Zastavas hitherto were really tightly controlled by Serbian trade authorities, assume the weapons Ukraine received were all factory fresh rather than a mixture of newly manufactured guns and guns "lost" during the collapse of Yugoslavia.
The ghoulishness behind the Vuvic quote is that basically Serbia never cared where their guns end up, they want the money and they just assure anyone (Russia or otherwise) that if they find a Zastava pointed at them, it's nothing personal.
>>2189939>That argument might hold merit if these protestors weren't actively hostile to such people and chasing them away.We've already covered it with Euromaidan that what people want and what they get aren't the same thing if the US manipulates such movements to what's more in their interests, so in Ukraine they wanted a hyper-militaristic Nazi-loving bulwark against positive Russian sentiment in Ukraine, more than they wanted one of the poorest and most corrupt markets joining the EU. Go figure.
So even if people are expressing opposition to EU and NATO, opposition to US interests, that's no more deterministic of what the outcome will be than when people are protesting in favour of US interests (or what they wrongly presume are)
>>2189962Ah it goes in circles because Moffin, Sabo and Bloodgasm can't (or won't) explain where their optimism for such movements come from despite there being no revolutionary proletariat movement or party uniting the masses and defend themselves with shitposts, projection and crap attempts at rhetorical gotchas.
If people are optimistic about action for actions sake and say stuff to the effect of any or all of the following
>We should be applauding whomever organised these protests for doing what Marxists didn't>I don't care about historical precedent, show me definitive proof that the CIA are ordering the protests or working to manipulate them *this* time>Well you can rush to defend neoliberal governments against the workers, but I'm sticking with the workers :^)>The protesters motivations are organic and therefore so is their spontaneous organisation despite a lack of consensus or class awareness, this is bullish, we can influence the movements I just said we were too weak to foment in the first place>Billions of dollars of USAID funding can run out in a month and there's no long term planning behind its spending And the crucial one
>We EVEN if I am wrong and the movement does get usurped by the US, that's irrelevant because the current government are already US vassals Demonstrating that under all the disingenuous shitposting and moralising, their optimism that this can't and won't likely be usurped is because they're confident being wrong and a colour revolution prevailing changes nothing wrt to Serbia's independence to US influence and imperialism but will remove a non-western strongman with a presumably more politically liberal leadership that Italians, Canadians and other western leftists have and "understand" organising against.
They've allowed themselves the freedom to be wrong, that if this moonshot misses then Serbia land amongst the stars of bourgeois democratic liberalism, which is very much Moffin and Sabo's court where they can discuss Serbia from what we can charitably call "experience" of being leftists within western liberalism.
>>2189981I didn't express any optimism about this. I said it looks like a single issue reformist movement that at best will secure some minor changes like more education funding or something. I just don't think it looks like a colour revolution.
>that if this moonshot misses then Serbia land amongst the stars of bourgeois democratic liberalismThey already are that ffs. This colour revolution will remove a pro-Western liberal and replace them with a pro-Western liberal?
>>2190047>It's literally a succinct statement of your position lmao It clearly isn't, you've just reiterated the short shitposts that spurred my effortposts clarifying my position, just for you to fall back on the initial shitpost seemingly utterly unchanged by anything I said.
Yeah, Sabo Cat? Pig ignorant, more like.
>>2188245>Unlike the protests in Greece, the Serbian protests have no class character.That would mean social classes in Serbia would have ceased to exist. Surely, there's a class "character" to it which shapes it.
>>2189442>I don't really feel like getting into a screenshot war with Gaynazi that is some Plato's cave bullshit. There are loads of NATOids calling him a "Putin cockholster" go look it up.Yes that's true and Gunther Fehlinger is also calling for Vojvodina to become an independent state or whatever, but the screenshots are more to illustrate a kind of Schrödinger's Vucic, he is a quantumly superimposed leader who may be considered both pro-Western and pro-Russian at the same time! Or depending on what angle you look at him.
>>2189568>Thus "historical precedence" argument you're making doesn't stand up to scrutiny, because in previous cases there was actual evidence indicating Western involvement. In Serbia specifically in the late 1990s that was Otpor (which means "Resistance") and which there is evidence for U.S. financial support to topple Milosevic. It's in the specifics when these things get interesting.
>>2189636>Colour revolution movements often display signs in English because they're audience is the West not their own country. It's part of a tactic to manufacture consent.The Hong Kong protests stand out in particular here. There were also protest leaders meeting with U.S. officials stationed out of the embassy and getting a lot of Western media attention. Meanwhile they were alienating huge numbers of people in the rest of China.
>Meanwhile Western media barely mentions these demonstrations at all, whereas with Ukraine, Venezuela, and Hong Kong they loudly amplified it. Yet another missing indicator. I was driving home late last night and turned on the BBC World Service's morning broadcast. They did mention the Belgrade protest but it wasn't at the top of the news (Trump bombing Yemen was), and they interviewed a protester (a law student) who phrased it as "we just want to live in a functioning country," emphasizing the collapse of a canopy at a railway station a few months ago that killed 14 people. Like, government institutions either don't work, or don't do what they're supposed to do, and the protests will continue until they get to the bottom of it. Then the segment paraphrased Vucic's response, that he was listening to the protesters and understands there needs to be change, and then the segment quoted some opposition politician calling for a transitional government led by "experts," and that last part sounded very Eurocrat.
>>2189795>From what I know<students denounced any kind of expert/transitional government by the fake oppositionSo that's interesting.
>>2189814>The colour revolutions of the early/mid-2000s didn't have these, they did have the narrative of protesters having no particular organisation or affiliation other than just a general outrage over corruption and incompetence that conveniently opens the door to pretty much any kind of leadership coming to power, that always inconveniently means the pro-NATO, pro-USAID, anti-Communist and anti-Russian party comes to power. I think that's an accurate description, although in some cases the protest organizers would get direct funding. Like one reason why people talk about USAID is because you can actually follow the money, look up the workshops that key protest organizers in various countries attended, and so forth. But I think these actual events were complex too, both a real disturbance from below due to structural problems with the politics and economy (politically-connected kleptocrats, crisis of legitimacy, etc.) since obviously you need that for a large-scale protest movement to be possible in the first place, and also a conflict between different models regarding which direction these countries will go (and who in these countries will win and who will lose depending on the outcome), which also plays out geopolitically and is when the outside money comes in.
To back to Hong Kong, even with all the outside support – and clear Western orientation of the protests – there were still structural problems in Hong Kong. I remember watching Martin Jacques on a Chinese show talking to a mainland audience who were basically infuriated at the protests and he said, very carefully, that yes you do have a right to be upset about this, but Hong Kong has also become very expensive and they have a lot of problems there, so don't let your anger get in the way of solving those underlying problems.
Another thing is the Hong Kong protesters were saying outright that they wanted to bring down the CCP. HONG KONG IS NOT CHINA. They were desperately seeking clout. Pepe the frog and "Xinnie the Pooh" were everywhere. There were people recording "last messages" to the New York Times in case they died (they did not). Also lots of hysterical hashtags indicating dependence on Western powers like #MagnitskyActNow
>>2189850>So, because Vuvic is still saying "both Moscow and Washington", he is still a target for a colour revolution.But Trump Jr. met with Vucic a few days ago, so maybe the U.S. supports Vucic? 🤡🌎
As a side note, one of the arguments that third-camp Trots (and I think Maoists in their own way) would make back during the 1960s/1970s is that the Cold War actually had a stabilizing logic, which made the U.S. and the USSR act as silent partners to divide up the world between them and squash alternatives, without destroying each other. So in 1968, there were upsurges in both Paris and Prague. Then the "campists" would take the Soviet side, and support the Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia, but Mao and the Chinese government opposed that. If you were a follower of Chairman Mao at the time, you'd have been blasting the "Soviet revisionist clique" as no better (and possibly even worse) than the Western imperialists.
>>2190068>Let’s call this what it is, a middle class led movement headed by liberal intelligentsiaIT'S NOT FFS
The students have no leaders, they are organized in plenums! Like what the fuck man why are you this blind in spite of facts to the contrary????
>>2190163It’s obvious that they have no leaders, I’m not denying that, this doesn’t take away from the fact that it was organized by the middle class
>>2190162Obviously this is good and I think you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone denying that. The progressive demand was there since the beginning, and should be applauded even though it was repressed from the beginning.
>>2190162>This kneejerk reaction that every popular rebellion is a CIA psyop must be damaging for the psyche.Not as damaging as comparing movements that win concessions that are temporary and small in the grand scheme of things, favourably with the desired movement of a revolutionary proletariat.
Yes, yes, I know
>Don't let good be the enemy of perfectBut there is a risk of disorganised, largely middle-class/intelligentsia movements being manipulated by the US to its own interests which usually resulted in societies that implement harsh decommunisation.
So in the worst case scenario, the movement is usurped and in the best case scenario it risks the greater damage to the collective psyche known as "reformism".
>>2190266In short, no. At the present moment, I have no reason to believe the students are financed and trained by external organizations.
Outside the lack of evidence, other indicators (in contrast to the students that helped topple Slobodan Milošević, which we know were financed and trained by external organizations):
1) No student leaders. The student organizations of every faculty are quick to distance themselves from any students that begin to make frequent media appearances and such.
2) The students distance themselves from the opposition parties, and distance themselves from "politics" (the students ate adamant that they are not seeking regime change or elections, but just for the demands to be met, for the law to be respected).
3) The faculties have had some infighting amongst each other in the past, suggesting they are not operating "as one". The chief incident I can cite is when at one protest there were some speakers that were chosen by one or some faculties but not others, then one faculty made a stink about it. The speakers were for example a political comedian/late-night talk show host, another talk-show host, a news presenter; none currently in politics, but some students didn't like the idea of public figures known for criticizing the ruling party being speakers at a protest, I guess.
>>2190345Well yes, if confronted with someone who can give more insight to the movement, sabo cats instinct is to pounce on them with
>Would it be fair to say you agree with me?Then yes, I imagine that hoe is particularly mad.
>>2190303Yes. Disciplined, check. Organized, check. Horizontal, check. Specific demands, check.
>>2190281I've been critical from the start, basically. Not because I jumped to the conclusion that it's a color revolution, but because from the start I did not see it as a class struggle movement. That might change with the zbor idea and wider non-student participation. It remains an unfortunate fact that Serbian leftist orgs are tiny, practically non-existent. I would describe the political situation, put in a vulgar way, as similar to "MAGA communism". Serbian proles wish for socialist policies, but socialism and communism as words and symbols have a stigma (basically they don't want said socialist policies to be described as "socialist"), if that makes sense. It's the reason I'm in the closet about being a communist.
>>2190371Pozdrav! Didn't read thread so didn't realize you're Serbian too.
…wtf these sonic weapons bros… is the mass movement dead? should we embrace blanquism? teach sex workers to become cloak and dagger assassins?…
defeating microwave weapons part 1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRopart 2https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC3O6B_K9UsThis ADS system is microwaving them while hurting their ears. This is what burgers accused Cubans of doing to "innocent" CIA agents in Miami lol.
>>2189325>Two of the classes mentioned there are lumpenFaggots on this board keep acting like the word is
'nt lumpen
proletariat, your dis-ingenuity says more about you than anyone else. I look forward to grinding your bones under the wheels of my chair.
t. crippled commie
>>2190456I am not familiar with Russian attitudes towards socialism/communism, but I would guess that one key difference is that Yugoslavia did not dissolve peacefully. The wars are still fresh in people's minds. Serbs experienced "national humiliation", and communists/communism was blamed for it, both by the Democrats (lead by Zoran Đinđić who as you know was assassinated in 2003 and became a martyr) and the Radicals (lead by Vojislav Šešelj who you may know ended up in the Hague on account of inciting ethnic cleansing against Croatians). The Socialists (lead by Ivica Dačić who was close with Milošević and you may not realize but they've been a part of almost every government), Milošević's party that somehow survived the public anger in the wake of his overthrow, never engaged in the blaming but they didn't do anything to dissuade it either (and nowadays are viewed as being "socialist" in name-only by left-leaning Serbs basically).
Yugo nostalgia has not been a relevant political factor since who knows when. I mean there are pensioners who might be nostalgic for Yugoslavia but still vote for Vučić's party, the Progressives (a splinter party that formed from members of the Radicals and the Democrats), whose government officials have acted sus with regards to chetniks and fascist figures (example off the top of my head, the former prime minister Ana Brnabić paid respects to Milan Stojadinović when she visited Argentina, a literal fucking fascist in the interwar period who later in his life shook hands with the ustaše leader Ante Pavelić who you might know as the man who orchestrated the genocide of Serbs) and quietly renamed communist and partizan streets over the years.
Wow, I got a headache just writing this.
>>2190412no way to confirm they used such a weapon, there are a lot of conspiracy theories going around social media - people are reporting vastly different 1st hand experiences and various symptoms
everybody is a LRAD expert now it seems
Although I wouldn't be surprised they actually used such a device, nor does it really matter if they did or not
The protests were a failure in my eyes, and only when the working class join the struggle, the one our liberal elite call "krezubi" (crooked teeth) - then it will yield results…
Until then we will see Vucic for another 10000 years, pic related
>>2190999>The protests were a failure in my eyesWhat do you mean? Failure relative to what? They never pretended to be revolutionary, they never pretended their goal was to (explictly) abolish the state, or to topple Vučić down. I feel a lot of you people continuously miss the forest for the trees. The main accomplishment is that the students self-organized for 4 months in soviet-like bodies, and that these soviet-like bodies were recognized as the largest parapolitical structure, and that these soviet-like bodies are being slowly taken by the general population. Everything else is bourgeois spectacle. And then you go to say stuff like
>when the working class join the struggle, the one our liberal elite call "krezubi" (crooked teeth) - then it will yield results…which just shows how utterly stupid you are. "Krezubi" have already joined the students. Have you forgett the Dec 22nd Farmers and Students protest? Have you forgotten the Mar 8th Students and Workers Solidarity protest? Have you forgotten Kolubara, EPS, GSP? Are you following the cultural and political production happening by the students in blockade? They are all very 'leftist' and socialist in their content. There are no rightist or liberal voices among the students.
You are all dopamine addicts. You think that four months of blockading higher education is a nothingburger. You think that plenums on the state level are a nothingburger. You think that a bombed, looted and overworked working class like Serbia's can regain political and class consciousness in two weeks. Shame on you. The students have not played into the hands of the fake opposition, and are also not stopping the blockade.
>>2191002Failure in the sense that there were hundreds and thousands of people in attendance without any clear ideological goal in mind (except for the students) and were mindlessly eating pork and sarma on the streets and screaming PUMPAJ, hoping that Vucic would hand them the government willy-nilly.
Although I commend the students, they compromise a tiny minority in these protests - the majority is the cultural elite.
But even the students are not pervious to criticism, they lack political education - one of the key points is for the "institutions to do their jobs". They are already doing their job, we live under capitalism, there is no justice only interest-groups
And another thing: Just because plenums are Soviet-like bodies, does not mean they are ideologically Soviet-like. (pic related)
And as far as your claim that the working class has joined the protests, brother you are wrong. First, the farmers in question who joined, are far from the working class (they own their means of production). The other you mention, I agree and I stand in solidarity (you forgot to mention the pharmacy workers protest). But the vast majority still have no interest in these protest, nor will they if the "cultural elite" continues to evoke rasism, classism, and elitism towards them - ie. the "Caci-land" park being constantly mocked for the presence of Romani people, and generally poor people.
Nowhere in the points that the students want fulfilled is there even a mention of a non-capitalist Serbia, the closest was the free education point that capitulated at a 20% in budget for higher education.
The working class has nothing to gain from this movement - when the movement becomes anti-capitalist, and provides concrete points such as: "no to EU, stop privatisation, free education", then it will have a spine.
>>2191010>The working class has nothing to gain from this movement - when the movement becomes anti-capitalist, and provides concrete points such as: "no to EU, stop privatisation, free education", then it will have a spine.I agree and I think that the anticapitalist shift is there and present. Again, look at
>>2190293. SKC also hanged down a banner calling for class struggle recently. More funding for education also shifts the class character of the student body long term. About the demands, the fact that the demands
are impossible to fulfill, makes them good demands. The state cannot fulfill them without abolishing itself and at the same time, for the vast majority they are 'reasonable' demands. 'Građani' are just a facade. They're the failed petty-bourgeois trying to subvert a (relatively) massive student movement. It's a classical tactic of the bourgeoisie, since without a massive political body to do the dirty work they cannot obtain state power. But they have no vanguard position. Even the (blind) followers of the petty-bourgeoisie are following them because of the intertia created by the students. And the fake opposition has been totally discredited recently, so that the students are still recieveing support means that the majority never actually stood behind, say, PSG, ZLF or any other imperialist shill.
>>2191010> Just because plenums are Soviet-like bodies, does not mean they are ideologically Soviet-like.Yes I agree. My point was more that the soviet body (which had seemed to have been discredited by history) has actually reached 'state' levels of organization. It's more saying, either soviets or bourgeois barbarism.
re: građaneri eugenism and fascism.
all true. But see my point about them not actually having any vanguard position to actually push those ideas forward. They're the fascistic intelligencia in emergance and will wither away without a platform.
>>2191002>uses farmers as proof of class solidarityyeah, wealthier farmers attend and bring their tractors, and the others can fuck off with their uneducated lives. Face it, the liberal intelligentsia hates the poor, thats why there are "Ćaci" and the rest are normal and well meaning students. That's why there are the "Sendvičar" and the smart, well educated worker.
they dont want to help the peasants and the proleteriat who are ready to "sell themselves" for max. 20 euros. Quite the contrary, they are to be made an example of for the whole of serbia to see how pathetic they are. As i said many replies ago, what do these proletarians get from supporting these protests? At least with the SnS they maybe get a job and a little money for their cooperation.
>>2191263im not the anon youre responding to but RNPF has been putting out banger after banger
their text about the sound gun they put out today is great, you should read it
>>2191253>though of course these people can't be expected to construct socialism100%
>>2191263They basically hold the "labor aristocracy" stance, which as I implied, I am sceptical of in our country's context. They also underestimate the influence of the intelligentsia via social media. It's true that generally Serbian proles aren't active on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, etc. and this may lead someone to erroneously conclude the intelligentsia lives in an informational bubble completely separate from proles, but what they forget is that Serbian proles are active in Viber, Telegram, Facebook, Whatsapp groups, which have members posting content "downstream" from Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, making the proles in these groups aware of the discourse going on in the intelligentsia circles and by nature of not being as "terminally online" as the intelligentsia, said discourse takes over political consciousness, as more content to be consumed is produced by the intelligentsia. If I wanted to be dramatic I would even say it's a fatal mistake to overlook this. Being a small country, with the proliferation of the internet and smartphones, this development isn't exactly surprising.
>>2190424>Nothing you can do about itblasting music loud enough to counter it? use the same algorithm of noise cancelling headphones but on a big sound system?
its still exposing valuable gear to the pigs retaliation though.
Skimming thread further
>>2188483>Is this true? This is hilarious. On the one side, Vucic's people are like "NATO is trying to overthrow us" and then they go to NATO and say "Russia is trying to overthrow us."Yes. It's a shitshow, to the point you don't know who they're trying to fool anymore. Watching the news here is like watching the trashiest Reality TV. Sort of similar to America. Bread and circuses turned up to 11. I mean literally, the poor are "bribed" with food gifts and the genius of almost-billionaire media mogul Željko Mitrović TV spectacles, he's kind of like our version of Elon Musk but somehow more unhinged if that's possible.
None of the images I'm posting are memes/edits.
>>2191713We have an expression in Serbian. "Smejem se od muke."
I'm laughing from the misery/pain.
>>2193480Non-socialists don't build socialism. This is not news to anyone.
>the working class would gain nothing beyond losing out on job opportunitiesAs opposed to dying from pollution? As opposed to privatizing national resources and giving them away for pennies to global corporations?
>Why make a revolution after a one-time accident?What revolution? Who is "why"?
>>2193480agree on all the points, however as
>>2193511 pointed out the mining project in Jadar would absolutely be a disaster for the people. Bare in mind that a lot of cities and towns in serbia dont have clean and safe water. Enviromental problems can and should be used in the context of class struggle
>>2193541the fact that Dačić basically fucked over Vucic, since he basically said that a person who uses LRADs shouldnt be president.
>>2193549I don't know exactly how it is in Serbia, but I'm pretty sure it's just like here that factories give much better pay than a public sector job or a small business. So it would be more like a devil's bargain (if they don't get replaced with filipinos that is). If that is true, than the correct position would be to demand that the government should properly enforce environmental regulations and make collective bargaining mandatory against the company. And while we're at it, maybe make the state itself build it and take the revenue. But the liberals won't do that, no. As said earlier, these options would probably just strengthen Vucic. I understand what you are saying, but liberals only opposed that mining project or really anything else at all because it would weaken Vucic which is the
only thing they want. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't agree with them on anything, but the problem is that the only reason this is a talked-about issue at all is because they have the power to make it one and we don't. Actual workers won't gain anything from it and neither will we.
Correct me if I'm wrong on anything. Here in Hungary there were similar protests against incoming EV battery manufacturers led by Soros NGOs and Soros media because muh pollution. The part of their narrative about using too much water is actually true and very concerning, but at the same time our government is single handedly saving European EV manufacturing by inviting Chinese investment and taking the blame for it. Needless to say this is very much in our (as in everyone in the country) interest because our whole economy depends on German car manufacturers and all of the economic woes Orbán the person is being blamed for is because of the state of the German automobile industry.
An another insane NGO project was when the teachers' unions decided to go on strike. They held a preliminary warning strike that they planned to make half a day long, but even that wasn't really successful because the government forced published a decree that forced them to still teach when they were supposed to be striking because the requirements for minimum service ridiculously high. Now what did the trade unions do? a.) go on a wildcat strike b.) cry in the media They chose b.) A few months pass. The courts declare the decree to be unconstitutional and destroy it. What do the unions do? a.) go on strike now that they are legally able to b.) nothing But! very important an insufferable theatre actor who gets behind every NGO cause makes another one of his slam poetry music videos (I want to vomit) about how teachers and students are not taking this anymore!!!! The video also features almost every notable Hungarian actor for some reason. Finally, we are saved. Soros-affiliated "student fronts" get activated and they start holding protests together with their teachers about how they are not taking it anymore. So brave! Do they go on strike? Well, the NGOs start telling teachers to refuse to go in to work and engage in "civil disobedience". School by school. So there is zero pressure on the government and most of them get fired. I did the same thing once when I overslept and woke up to my shift manager calling me on the phone and angrily asking why I'm not at the job site. The protests keep happening. Their numbers start dwindling. All of them are students at this point because the teachers are fed up with this shit or are already fired. In the end they provoke the police into tear gassing them by constantly holding protests near the prime minister's office and messing with metal barriers there that were placed down because of a real construction project. The only thing the trade unions are able to come up with is that they should press charges against the government at the EU court. All throughout this story the liberals make appeals to how "people with diplomas should make more money" (evidencing that they hate manual workers).
>>2193820There is no "strengthening" Vučić when Vučić is a part of a criminal network that exploits neoliberalism for personal profit. You're coming at this from some angle that Vučić could be convinced to make a pro-labor deal or something, when that is literally against his personal interests. We're also talking about a global corporation that will fight tooth and nail to get the best deal they can get (they've already threatened to sue the country). And, putting my tin foil hat on, I wouldn't be surprised if the EU, which has its own corrupt leadership, is making threats behind closed doors. Absolutely NONE of the mentioned entities (Rio Tinto, Vučić, the EU) have any interest in a pro-labor arrangement.
Oh, did I mention Vučić is constitutionally not even supposed to be deciding the fate of the country (the post of the president is supposed to be symbolic). Lmao
I'm bumping this thread because I've listened to a podcast this morning by Le Monde about the March 15th protests, it was quite informative and provide a good picture of the situation, you can listen to it here if you understand French:
https://podcasts.lemonde.fr/lheure-du-monde/202503260300-serbie-les-raisons-dune-mobilisation-sans-precedent but I will provide a summary of it here.
———
So, let's start from the beginning, because virtually no one in this thread mentioned the reason why the protests started in the first place.
On November 1, 2024, the canopy of the Novi Sad train station (pic related) collapsed onto the pavement, killing 16 people.
For context, Novi Sad is the second largest city of Serbia, with a big student population.
Nobody is sure why it happened, all that is known according to the podcast is that a subcontractor cut cables that were sustaining the canopy in place before it happened, but it's unclear why they did it.
Protests started as soon as the next day and escalated quickly. A few days later according to b92.net, Vučić said "On November 3, a coup d'état was attempted in Serbia, whoever betrayed it will have to answer".
For students, the collapse of the canopy admittedly symbolizes the corruption of the government.
Invitations to tender for public works, in particular, are managed with complete opacity. That's why it's so hard to know precisely who is responsible for the collapse and why the main demand of the students is the publication of the documents related to the renovation of the Novi Sad canopy.
You can read all the student demands here:
>>2189795You will notice they don't ask for the resignation of Vučić. Indeed, it would be foolish if they did, because it would give weapons to the government to discredit the protesters among the public opinion. What would be the best for the students, according to the podcast, is if Vučić would still remains
de jure the president of Serbia, but would have
de facto very little power through parliamentary mechanisms.
The students were smart and decided to connect with older people and workers, in order to show them that they aren't insane insurrectionists seeking to burn down everything, but are simply concerned citizens about the current state of Serbia.
At this point, not only students are part of the protestors, but also workers, retired people, farmers, and even some lawyers who are creating problems for the judicial system as a form of protest (regarding the prosecution of students who got caught I imagine).
Both pro-Russian nationalists and pro-EU liberals are part of the movement, and many people in between or outside of these camps, like communists of course.
March 15 was supposed to be the apotheosis of the movement, and they were approximately 300,000 protestors, which is huge in a country of 6.5 million inhabitants.
This thread documents what happened that day, including the use of a sonic weapon at 7 P.M. while protestors were supposed to have 15 minutes of silence between the presidential palace and the parliament, as a message and also to make counting the protesters easier.
At first, the government denied having access to a LRAD, then admitted they had one but that it wasn't deployed in Belgrade at the time, then said it deployed in Belgrade but wasn't used.
They also said the protests are part of a CIA plot for a color revolution, but are embarassed by this now that Trump is dismantling the US federal state, so they now it was a plot of USAID when the Democrats were in power.
Vučić at this point only wish the movement would rot and degenerate into senseless violence, so his government could regain the high ground and shut down the protests for good.
———
I don't know what happened since then, so if any Serbian anons have any news on the current situation, or can correct some eventual mistakes I've made in my post, I would be interested.
Some new protests are mentioned in the latest News Anon thread (TYBNA):
>>2198641Post-scriptum for
>>2200032:
Now, I must say, looking at this thread, I'm a bit disappointed by the reaction of /leftypol/ — but not terribly surprised.
As soon as the thread started, no one sought to understand the causes of the protest movement.
If you search for "canopy" (or "roof") in the thread, there was only one mention of it before my post, and it was among the demands of the students, it didn't even mention Novi Sad.
Everyone instead immediately started talking about 4D geopolitics, as if we were talking about some epic Hearts of Iron IV game or something.
Vučić and the Serbian government, like Orbán in Hungary, are playing a delicate balance between appeasing the EU and maintaining good relationships with Russia.
Vučić was elected on the promise that he would convince Serbian nationalists to join the EU, as he was Minister of Information from 1998 to 2000, under Milošević. Since then, Vučić makes absolutely no effort to join the EU — and personally, I can't blame him because I'm really not sure if joining the EU would be a good thing for Serbia, probably not, same thing for Croatia who recently joined the Eurozone, though Croatia has a thriving tourism industry.
But one important thing to consider, when talking about Serbia, or Bosnia while I'm at it, is that the average wage is very low compared to the local cost of living.
For an European country, the purchasing power of Serbians is extremely low. If you look at www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/, you will see that a 1 bedroom apartment in the center of Belgrade is 745€, 484€ outside of the center, and 940€ is the average wage. The average wage, not the minimum wage.
By comparison, in Paris, even if costs and rents are higher, the average wage is 3000€, even if many people live with much less than this.
On top of that, the cost of groceries in Belgrade isn't that low compared to Western Europe.
I find it ironic that, on this communist imageboard, when a protest happen in the periphery, it has to be a color revolution, and when a protest happen in the imperial core, it has to be ineffectual radlibs.
Do you truly believe the proletariat can forge their own destiny and fight against capitalists in order to instantiate a dictatorship of the proletariat, or are you hopeless romantics who only care about Ostalgia?
Because when I see this thread, I feel like too many of you are hopeless romantics, and think workers are stupid pawns with no agency.
———
For the anecdote, I was in Georgia when the pro-EU protests happened. I saw EU flags everywhere in Tbilisi, literally painted on every other street corner. I even saw a huge NATO flag on Liberty Square.
I talked with students in front of the parliament by chance, and they were very disappointed when I honestly told them I don't like the EU and Brussels, and explained why. It wasn't funny, to more or less crush their dreams, at all.
I don't always agree with Sabocat, but they are completely right in this post:
>>2189404Georgia is notorious for having a ton of NGOs operating in their country, and Georgians are stuck between paid agents who truly want a color revolution like in 2014 Ukraine, and corrupt pro-Russian politicians and national capitalists who don't give a single fuck about making their own country better.
It's fucking grim there, and the reasons why a lot of Georgians want to join the EU is to GFTO of their country and find work in Germany or anywhere else except Georgia (which is sad because it's a beautiful country).
From the little I know, the protests in Serbia seem quite different to me: a legit citizen movement against corruption.
Apparently, students don't get any money for the material they need to organize, because if they did, they would have many vehicles with huge loudspeakers for example, but from what I've heard, they don't, their means are small compared to the size of the protests.
Some of you might be used to see corruption and decaying infrastructure in your own country, and people not doing anything about it, but it's not the case everywhere around the world.
>>2200032>I don't know what happened since then, so if any Serbian anons have any news on the current situationEverything you said is more or less trve but I'll add the following things for more context.
(i) The EU has decided on a number of strategic projects recently. One of them a lithium mine in Jadar (for the electric car industry). Together with a militarizing EU means that Serbia is ripe for imperialist aggression, and Vučić concurs. He has no issue with Brussel's directives, even was in a meeting a few days ago with them. But with continuing unrest it might just stall it long enough. There is a consistent anti-Rio Tinto sentiment and prominent Marxists from Serbia (Aleksandar Matković e.g.) have been warning about this. These kinds of talks are popular with the students.
(ii) A few weeks before March 15th a proregime group of pretend-students, petty criminals, small bosses, bureaucrats from SNS municipalities etc. less than 200 strong occupied the Pioneer Park across the Presidental Palace. Their slogan is "Students which want to learn." They are the last of what remains of the SNS machine willing to fight for the party, a tragic kind of lumpen black hundreds. Anyway, state media hyped up this story about possible violence occurring on the 15th (as you point out so Vučić has a reason to deploy state violence and calm the protest down). It didn't help that there were leaked talks between members of PSG (EU-neolibs) about planning a civil war on the 15th with some psyop attack on the state TV (RTS).
But thankfully, once the students in blockade were at the Pioneer Park, and someone threw a bottle from the Park at the them, and state media quickly launched story after story about civil war. Students in blockade quickly called the protest off and nothing happened. There are rumors that the Pioneer Park blackhundreds also had weapons on them. Pics are floating around about SNS-men placing bags with stone on the roooftops of surrounding buildings as artillery to throw on the students in blockades. Crazy stuff was going on.
(iii) There has been a massive wave of zbors popping up. People all over Serbia are organizing in zbors. They are still not revolutionary, but are able to formulate (a) support for the students in blockade and (b) demanding resignation of SNS bureaucrats. There are have also been incidents of (tw for americans) 'eggings' of those bureaucrats and their businesses or homes. It's funny stuff. But also developing into civil war in which the EU will try to intervene in just for that juciy lithium. Oh and people from the Mačva region (where the mine is supposed to be) were the first to organize in zbors and some even physically chased out representatives of Rio Tinto and SNS from municipal buildings.
reposting because wall of text
>>2200070>As soon as the thread started, no one sought to understand the causes of the protest movement.I literally asked for a quick rundown right before you posted, uygha. Plus this isn't the first thread about this movement as well.
>I find it ironic that, on this communist imageboard, when a protest happen in the periphery, it has to be a color revolution, and when a protest happen in the imperial core, it has to be ineffectual radlibs.How about instead of accusing us of hating the real movement, you inform us on the actual movement and shit. 75% of your post are tangents.
>>2200070As it was pointed out many times (mostly by me) on this thread, the protestors have done a good job of alienating themselves from the peasants and the proletariat, so forgive me for being a little bit cynical. Also, I dont think that fighting generally against "corruption" is a good thing. What do they mean by corruption? I haven't seen (except for 2 days ago) anyone protest the massive arms exports we give to Ukraine and Israel, for example. Nobody likes Vucic, but from what I have seen, the alternatives aren't really that different
>I can't blame him because I'm really not sure if joining the EU would be a good thing for Serbia, probably not, same thing for Croatia who recently joined the Eurozone, though Croatia has a thriving tourism industry.I find this response extremely telling, even though you said yourself you dont like the EU. Vucic is definitely more pro EU, and the answer to whether or not the EU is good should obviously be that it is not good.
>>2200295>the protestors have done a good job of alienating themselves from the peasants and the proletariatbut that's empirically wrong and I think you're really talking about something you have not researched. like you say "they're against corruption" when that's not what they're "against" (see their demands here
>>2189795 and read through the archives). besides there have been zbors popping up everywhere, even among striking workers. but these things take time to develop after 30 years of neoliberal loot, rape and pillage. dopamine whores, all of you.
>I haven't seen (except for 2 days ago)So you've seen and now hopefully you're realizing that historical movements take a while to develop. If you'd been paying more attention you'd see that in the last month there has been much antiimperialism being brought into the student rebellion in the form of struggle against Rio Tinto and EU imperialism.
>Nobody likes Vucic, but from what I have seen, the alternatives aren't really that differentSee
>>2200032<You will notice they don't ask for the resignation of Vučić. Indeed, it would be foolish if they did, because it would give weapons to the government to discredit the protesters among the public opinion. What would be the best for the students, according to the podcast, is if Vučić would still remains de jure the president of Serbia, but would have de facto very little power through parliamentary mechanisms.Regarding the EU and anyone here interested. Today in an interview for a Swiss television Vučić was asked about lithium in Mačva. He said, we'll, the people are against it, but we (him and his cronies) made a deal with Germany and the deal will be upheld". Mind you, this comes in tandem with the EU setting a lithium mine as one of their strategic goals (for the german electric car industry).
>>2200310You're not seeing the greater picture. Of course they are not asking for the resignation of the president, still, the protests did strengthen the opposition.
The general strikes were a failure. There is no incentive for the workers to support it. The farmers you speak of coming with their tractors aren't the poor peasants and workers you'd like them to be, make of that what you will.
Either way the rhetoric used and pushed on the protests are retarded and should be critiqued. The same people they accuse of being inhuman illiterates are the only ones capable of inflicting any real damage on the system, whether the protesters like it or not.
The voice of the protests have become clear, if not by their demands then by their actions and rhetoric. The people hate Vucic, and the fact of the matter is that many people would be content with a new Vucic taking power, if it meant that the current ruling party would be replaced
>>2200318> still, the protests did strengthen the oppositionThey absolutely did not you buffoon. The opposition is even more discredited after the PSG coup d'etat fiasco. Stav and SviĆe, the only two political structures which could've swayed the direction of the rebellion towards the other petty-bourgeoisie have been discredited by all student plenums.
And again, you are (at this point I have every inclination to say on purpose) conflating the (i) student rebellion and (ii) the građaneri white-strikes and other perfomative politics. (ii) tails (i), because, as simple observation shows, whenever the civil opposition to Vučić protested, they barely counted 30-40.000 people. Students can drag out almost 300.000 people on the street. This is clearly
not a civil rebellion lead by the other petty-bourgeoisie. This is a student rebellion that is offering Serbia a new way of social organization that is not bourgeois pairlamentary democracy.
>>2200327Bullshit. Even with all the embarrassing shit the opposition has pulled in the past 5 months, they still indirectly benefits from the apolitical protests. If you can't see that, I dont know what to tell you.
>now you're mad that they have not articuled their frustration in a language that's to your standard? No, we should be supporting this middle class movement uncritically and support everything they are doing. If you think talking about these fundamental problems in the zbors will change anything, youre wrong
>>2200342>they still indirectly benefits from the apolitical protestsOkay, prove it. Show me the evidence. You should be able to produce some proof of this. Even the idea of Expert Government or the Government of People's Trust has been completely discredited by the sudent movement. And thus, because the civil opposition
tails the student movement, they can't agitate for it. You're screaming at clouds. Again, see
>>2200032<You will notice they don't ask for the resignation of Vučić. Indeed, it would be foolish if they did, because it would give weapons to the government to discredit the protesters among the public opinion. What would be the best for the students, according to the podcast, is if Vučić would still remains de jure the president of Serbia, but would have de facto very little power through parliamentary mechanisms. >>2200366>I never expected them to make systematic critiques, I'm not an idealist.No one cares about
you and
your opinions.
>But why do you then expect communists to support it when it wont accomplish anything.No one is telling you to
support anything abstractly, especially not communists. We are talking about a student rebellion. This is history developing. It's rare you get something this close home to observe. It has historic significance. We observe and make hypothesis about capitalist society and even if ideologically confused, organizationally there is something to learn from the student rebellion.
>>2200381The OP started out with a j'accuse towards the students in blockade
>>2188245 <The implications are obvious; a color revolution is in the works.And this whole thread was a handful of people struggling against the tide (which you are representative of, see for example your prejudices against the protesteros, based completly on some hysteria you're currently experiencing when it comes to this student rebellion, which it never pretended not to be anything but a student rebellion (contrary to your expectation that this will usher some new proletarian movement, and, mind you, you continuously conflate with the minority of the minority of the lumpen the bourgeois spectacle serves to you as the 'real' people tired of these students blockaders.
>>2200295<As it was pointed out many times (mostly by me) on this thread, the protestors have done a good job of alienating themselves from the peasants and the proletariat>>2200318<the protests did strengthen the opposition<The same people they accuse of being inhuman illiterates are the only ones capable of inflicting any real damage on the system, whether the protesters like it or not.Worse yet, you admit I'm right
>>2200325<I personally know one of the people who went to the park and i can attest to him being a criminal small town politician.and continue peddling this confused anti-blockade sentiment because you're seeing ghosts. With no evidence, you claim
>>2200342<Even with all the embarrassing shit the opposition has pulled in the past 5 months, they still indirectly benefits from the apolitical protestsCompletely changing to topic to some fictious election scenario NO ONE talked about and most everyone 'in the know' realizes means fuck all considering that pairalamentary democracy is being discredited more and more each day in Serbia. GO AND SEE! THERE ARE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS OF ZBORS AND THEIR MINUTAE POSTED ONLINE. YOU CAN SEE FIRST HAND WHAT IT IS BEING TALKED ABOUT. The zbor in Palilula-Centar passed the motion that speakers, moderators and stenographers cannot be from NGOs or political parties. But you'll ignore this fact to continue hating on the students because you are no different from a left-com, you'd rather just bitch and moan history is not to your liking rather than take the bull by the horns and shamelessy agitate for socialism. Hey fuckface, if you're so convinced your political line is the only correct one, go out there and test it with the masses.
After being completly refuted on every point you sing a completly different tune, spineless cunt. See
>>2200381 >>2200416you said nothing new here and this is going in circles at this point. I haven't changed my stances at all neither when talking to you or before that. The protests are a shitshow and will accomplish nothing because of the overwhelming majority of shitlibs and serb "nationalists". Not every mass movement is progressive in nature, and no matter how much anyone tries to agitate the problem still stands. It is also obvious that the student led blockades arent a monolit either and that the political leanings differ from univerist to university. This doesnt change the fact that the zbors are a good thing and you will see that i never fucking denied that.
Fuck off with your moralizing bullshit and realize that critique is in dire need.
>But you'll ignore this fact to continue hating on the students because you are no different from a left-comYeah im a leftcom for criticizing the retarded rhetoric made during the protests. Fucking retard, you spout takes such as the need to observe and the need to learn from the student rebellion, but when actual critique is made towards their attitudes to the workers in this country, which started long before that whole shitshow in the park, you call me a fucking leftpol for not going along with it 100% like a good liberal dog.
>you'd rather just bitch and moan history is not to your liking rather than take the bull by the horns and shamelessy agitate for socialismYeah, criticizing a flawed movement is actually reactionary and being an armchair revolutionary. "just go agitate if you don't like it" fucking who? the factory workers who were working during the general strikes? Either way they would kick you out for even distributing leaflets. The situation is developing, no one is denying that, as you could see from the responses from several days ago. What a waste of time.
>>2200457>their attitudes to the workers in this country, which started long before that whole shitshow in the parkyou're again conflating two things (the student rebellion and the civil opposition), and accusing the students in blockades of classism, despite them standing in solidarity with GSP, ESP, teachers, pharmacy workers. you're again conflating the 0.3% of lumpen in the pioneer park with the working class.
have you wondered why there is no general strike? because it's illegal to strike in Serbia. only the highest syndical instance in Serbia has the right to declare strike across branches. so if you want workers to join you'll first have to appeal the law on strikes.
>>2200908That was never the point being made r-tard, it was that disorganised, unrevolutionary movements are likely to be co-opted by the west to develop it into an attempt at a colour revolution, NOT
>This always happens without fail>It always succeeds when an attempt is made>That the protests in Serbia originate with western-backed orgs>That the protests in Serbia have been co-opted>That the protests in Serbia will be co-optedIt's simply just that there is a risk of such a scenario where this or that protest develops into a colour revolution or a Euromaidan, where the end result resembles nothing like what people took to the street to achieve.
It's just common sense based on historical precedent set in the 21st century so far and the only people who get irate over the concerns are adventurists and opportunists who only care about seeing (and being seen to support) "action", just as a general aesthetic of there being people on the streets with signs and demands, the movement underpinning it is simply an afterthought that Marxists can and should try to utilise somehow.
>>2200924And see, that's all you've got to push back against the concerns, a conceited over-confidence expressed with sarcasm.
If you don't really care about socialism or colour revolutions, if either pales in comparison to just supporting whatever random movement appears out of the ether for appearances sake, then fine but you are a deeply unserious leftist.
>>2201437Lol the students lost control of the protests and had to cancel it. Parallels were drawn between the october 5th protest and this one from the beginning. Either way it doesnt matter anymore.
>>2201435Based
>>2200295>the protestors have done a good job of alienating themselves from the peasants and the proletariatI have never head of someone not already associated with SNS getting offended by "sandwichers" or "ćaci" and the "ćaci" mistake sounds more like something an urban youth who usually uses Latin instead of Cyrillic would do.
Truly illiterate people in Serbia are very small minority and probably mostly Roma people who didn't go to school.
>>2201460They planned in advance to cancel it if they lose control. That would mean that your feared color revolution scenario was already planned for and averted. There was also that Stav voice recording leak that talked about inciting the masses to request a transition government, so people knew in advance to look out for things like that.
>>2200349>Even the idea of Expert Government or the Government of People's Trust has been completely discredited by the sudent movement.Unfortunately the idea got revived and students of some faculties are officially for it now.
>>2206765>Unfortunately the idea got revived and students of some faculties are officially for it now.WRONG AND I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! LET ME DEBUNK IT!!
nova reported firstly and this was picked up by other portals how "niš students suggested and accepted an expert government". I got this from another portal which copied the news from nova before they changed it i.e.
https://www.glassumadije.rs/studenti-iz-nisa-predlazu-ekspertsku-vladu-sastanak-sa-predstavnicima-ostalih-univerziteta-odrzan-juce-u-kragujevcu/)
>Prema informacijama Nova.rs, studenti niških fakulteta, već nekoliko nedelja vode raspravu o modelu prelazne, odnosno ekspertske Vlade. Na kraju, ovaj predlog je dobio podršku na plenumu.>Njihova ideja ekspertske Vlade juče je u Kragujevcu predstavljena delegatima Univerziteta iz Beograda, Novog Sada, Novog Pazara i samog Kragujevca.so "students from niš" suggested an expert government yesterday in kragujevac, and it was "accepted at the plenum" (which plenum? the first report also stated ALL but the electrotechnical faculty supported the expert government, but then this was also redacted but I can't find this anywhere atm so don't believe me blindly).
and then if you look at the news now it says
https://nova.rs/vesti/politika/saznajemo-studenti-iz-nisa-predlazu-ekspertsku-vladu-sastanak-sa-predstavnicima-ostalih-univerziteta-odrzan-juce-u-kragujevcu/<u Kragujevcu je juče održan sastanak predstavnika svih Univerziteta u Srbiji na kojem je predstavljen predlog ekspertske Vlade. Tek ako bude usvojen na plenumima svih univerziteta u blokadi, ovaj predlog će biti predstavljen javnosti.so now it is some "meeting of representatives of all universties in serbia" in kragujevac that suggested the expert government, and there is no mentioned of niš or plenums but they add
<Tek ako bude usvojen na plenumima svih univerziteta u blokadi, ovaj predlog će biti predstavljen javnosti. IT'S LITERALLY FAKE NEWS DON'T BELIEVE THE FAKE NEWS
>>2206783Okay, then I guess we'll see if students from other universities support that. Nova/N1 have been pushing the expert government thing a lot.
>>2206787Maybe if The West is funding then they could also pay the teachers and professors whose wages got stolen by the government.
>>2206765>I have never head of someone not already associated with SNS getting offended by "sandwichers" or "ćaci" and the "ćaci" mistake sounds more like something an urban youth who usually uses Latin instead of Cyrillic would do.I dont care if they are offended or not because that is not the main issue. It shows that middle the middle class is not capable of of being sympathetic towards those who they call sandwitchers etc. acting as if them (the lower classes of SnS voters) are somehow traitors for voting for the SnS/
Let me remind you that there is currently no mainstream party which represents the needs of the proletariat, but the ones who voted for the opposition still feel greater moral superiority (the fact that the protests are apolitical in nature is besides the point, the notion of superiority is still accepted one way or another)
The protests are a huge waste of time and will achieve nothing in the long run, precisely because of the Us vs Them dynamic they have created. The point now is to have a different Vucic in power, the difference being that he will wear some other party's colors
>>2206937>I dont care if they are offended or not because that is not the main issue. It shows that middle the middle class is not capable of of being sympathetic towards those who they call sandwitchers etc. acting as if them (the lower classes of SnS voters) are somehow traitors for voting for the SnS/Why "somehow" when the logic is pretty clear? They received a bribe to vote for SNS (which is supposedly bad for everyone)
>Let me remind you that there is currently no mainstream party which represents the needs of the proletariat, but the ones who voted for the opposition still feel greater moral superiorityThat's not something strange for "democracies" anywhere the world.
>(the fact that the protests are apolitical in nature is besides the point, the notion of superiority is still accepted one way or another) They're not apolitical, they students just don't want to be associated with the opposition and NGOs or have their protests taken over by them.
>The protests are a huge waste of time and will achieve nothing in the long run, precisely because of the Us vs Them dynamic they have created.Why? According to some polls the majority of the population (as well as the majority of every age bracket except for the oldest one) supports of the students.
>The point now is to have a different Vucic in power, the difference being that he will wear some other party's colorsThat's just the classic "svi su isti" rhetoric. SNS is simply worse that the average neoliberal party, and getting rid of SNS even if another neoliberal coalition takes the lead would still be a win.
>>2207124>Why "somehow" when the logic is pretty clear? They received a bribe to vote for SNS (which is supposedly bad for everyone)Thats such bullshit moralizing, do you think the people who take a measly 2000 dinars for a vote really have any other choice? The question is not IF they are doing it or if it's bad, because no one wants people to be bribed obviously, it's a question of WHY, which is yet to be addressed.
Everyone knows that dead people turn up to vote for the SnS, and that they are corrupt as shit, however the methods they use have not been criticized outside of being called blatant corruption. The liberal idea of "sandwichers", which coincides with the idea of traitors, is just an ineffective guilt-trip and agitation of the middle class.
>getting rid of SNS even if another neoliberal coalition takes the lead would still be a win.is this fucking bait?
>>2207278>>2207280yeah and your whole point is "hurrr there are MILLIONS voting for SNS so any kind of natural hatred towards the proactive 0.3% that is everywhere and has no shame about being in SNS means DA PROTESTORS HATE DA POOR PEOPLE"
this is your whole point. literally no one cares if you had to sell your ass to survive, people care when you make it a point to defend the SNS machinery
>>2215430yeah extremely
the government id despised and the liberal opposition are considered morons and totally discredited so the people are looking around for another direction. Serbia is the country to watch at this moment in my opinion. Very ripe situation.
>>2200857>have you wondered why there is no general strike? because it's illegal to strike in Serbia. only the highest syndical instance in Serbia has the right to declare strike across branches. so if you want workers to join you'll first have to appeal the law on strikes.How do you think strikes became permissible in the first places? Workers went on illegal strikes until the state legalised striking, as in promising not to punish striking workers with live ammunition. If you have a trade union that doesn't do strikes and can't even threaten to strike, it's not a trade union, it's an NGO. Maybe a lefty NGO, but an NGO. Submitting to strike laws is basically carrying water for the liberal opposition, because if they don't go on a strike, striking will remain illegal, but forming stupid libshit parties and boosting them with CIA funded propaganda will stay legal and as such remain the only avenue to express discontent, to the benefit of SNS.
I don't want to be overly cynical, especially as a foreigner, but if the unions remain passive for whatever reason (corruption or just lack of worker support), then this is going to end in a liberal victory which will lead to an SNS victory.
The tensions continue to rise.
I have a hot take, I came to this understanding as I began to think more about our circumstances in Serbia.
Serbia has a "kulak"-like problem. In the sense of, this is not a standard worker vs bourgeois struggle.
What is the problem? Liberals call it corruption, but the word "corruption" actually obfuscates the graveness of the situation. Maybe that's why some anons here don't understand why this is not typical political corruption like say in the US.
We essentially have a class of people who have all taken, individually, a "slice of the pie" for themselves. The pie in question? The very capital of the state - the resources like money and property. This class of people is not, mind, exclusively the politicians and oligarchs at the top - it in fact includes the incompetent nepotistically-employed state employees. As we say in Serbian, "preko veze" (I know a guy who can help you…)
It is literally in their interest as a class of people for the continued robbery of the state to continue. At the expense of everyone else living here and paying already high taxes even at the lowest income brackets. The Serbian people are collectively being robbed by these people. Not just robbed, slowly killed. And not in the sense of some ancap shit like "taxation is theft", to avoid misunderstanding, but in the sense that the capital from the taxes isn't even being used for what it would be used in a liberal capitalist state. Rather, it is directly used for self-benefit.
Uhleb. How to translate this word? Parasite? Hleb means bread. U means in. In-bread? Hand-in-bread? Bread-taker?
Here is an anecdote. My grandma lives very poor and receives social security (not a pension, she doesn't qualify for one, but literally social benefits). One recent winter, she told me, she went to the opština (local center or however you would translate it) to get wood, as wood is given out for free to people like her for heating. She told me, they refused to give her wood, because she wasn't a member of SNS. The uhlebi did that. The very same uhlebi we are supposed to feel sorry for, according to rightists. I can't express by text how furious I was when I heard that from my grandma.
This is class conflict and the lines are clear - uhlebi versus the rest of Serbia.
Yugo-flag anon, I have to disappoint you. These are not serious communists. What is this performative radlib shit?
<In the book "Lenin" by Lev Danilkin, we find the passage:
>"Lenin, who in everyday speech often used the phrase 'only Allah knows' (Arabic: Allahu a'alam) to mean 'there is no information and there cannot be any.'"
<When we use Arabic terms like *"insha'Allah"* and *"alhamdulillah"*, we do so akin to the bygone Native American chant *"hoka-hey"*, for Arabs are to imperialists the Native Americans of the 21st century. Moreover, there are no words that can quite "upset" liberals, so we won’t waste time unmasking them.
Firstly, citing a literally who author? And I can't even find on Google Lenin's usage of this phrase.
Secondly, who the fuck are they kidding? Are we going to pretend now that Serbs via Bosniaks, Bosnian Muslims, who literally speak the same language and lived alongside Serbs in the same freaking country, have never heard of "inshallah"? Or that Serbs themselves don't literally use the Arabic borrowed phrase "mašala"? That our language doesn't have loads of Arabic loanwords via Turkish? No, this all seems very foreign gentlemen, this will surely own the libs.
This both glows ("here let me quote literally who J. Sakai to sound coincidentally inflammatory" energy) and is somehow miraculously out of touch with Serbian/Yugoslav culture and history.
>>2220902yeah, and the machinery of the SNS system still manages to oppress the people through their tactics, which one way or the other successfully forces people to support them. In other words, were there magically a referendum now which would determine the future of the party, with all the fraud and corruption aside, there would still be a big turnout on the side of the government.
The people take sides on the basis of surviving or on the side they think is the best. I don't think there is any diehard Vucic fan. Your " 0.2% of the population" stance is so far removed from the material conditions of the serbian workers and is laughable.
>>2206783>>2206790The expert government thing is gaining a lot of steam, I've heard that the proposal had majority support on the Great Meeting of Delegates of each town except Belgrade, and that it's quite shaky in Novi Sad too, because the biggest FTN was against. Hopefully the Belgrade faculties can figure out a good opposing idea.
I've also seen the criteria for experts that some of the pro-expert government faculties posted, and they're absurd. There's probably like less than 10 people who fulfill the criteria in the whole Serbia, I can't think of anyone. It is such a shit idea.
>>2248799It's official, it passed in the Great Meeting of Delegates of each town, meaning that the students are asking for parliamentary elections and forming a representative list for those elections, but that doesn't mean they're going to happen before 2027.
The students themselves aren't actually going to be on the list. They agreed to allocate a number of spaces on the list to each faculty in the country, then the plenums of each faculty will vote on people they want on their part of the list. The list will probably contain a lot of university professors.
>>2256373Actually, the talking point now is that the majority of students in blockade are good (they mean liberal) students but that a small minority of Khmer Rouges are derailing the whole movement.
There's also that Vucic's "bolshevik plenumers" quote from a few weeks ago.
>>2267292It's not that EU flags were banned. We just have a lot of fascistic "patriotic" nutjobs attacking people for the slightest "provocation". Hence the pro-EU libs stopped trying to carry EU flags when they realized they might get their heads caved in by thugs.
And before anyone says "based", I hate the EU as much as anyone, but I don't think we should be rooting for fascistic violence (violence directed at people who have nothing to do with big capital). They can hate libs like us, doesn't mean we should be encouraging them to continue their policing of "traitors" (which, if you were not naive, would realize includes us here on leftypol, if you aren't foolish enough to think they wouldn't direct the same violence against communists, "enemies" of their beloved church among other things.)
>>2274119As far as I'm aware not a single student social media account ever singled out EU flags as banned.
>>2274132>bat for the EUI neither bat for the EU, nor do I bat for "patriotic" nutjob thugs. Sorry that being a communist is too complicated for you.
>>2286982That is valid critique, students need more resolve and less of that embarrassing shit (biking to Strasbourg, running to Brussels)
It is truly sad how protests are kinda fizzling out, unironically only truly effective protest happened on 3rd November (like first protest of the bunch) when protesters actually did shit (stormed SNS hq in Novi Sad and stormed city hall) but after that they got watered down into whatever this is rn.
>>2289462the actions of the first wave of protests were universally condemned and the attackers were labeled provocateurs and agents of the SNS
>>2289465I have said this many times over the course of 2 months on this thread that the working class truly have been neglected by the protestors. Not even the Zbors (correct me if im wrong) had any actual influence over the events of the protests. Politically, the movement is bankrupt (see that cunt of a pro-israeli professor on hunger strike everyone is freaking out over). Not one truly progressive demand was demanded. We are utterly fucked.
>>2284458Not a Serb, but I can confirm this. I was walking around late at night in Beograd, and suddenly I saw a bunch of tents blocking a critical road intersection of the city, and a shitton of cops.
So I went to the supermarket that is still open at this time of the night, got some snacks and beer, and when I got out, I saw a bunch of people who looked like students, so I asked them what was going on, and they confirmed to me it was a teacher protest.
They told me the government passed a law or decree reducing the time spent on research by teachers from 50% to 5%, which means it limits their pay to 50€. While Beograd is a relatively cheap city by Western standards, this is an unliveable situation.
They told me the government passed this decree basically illegally or almost, it's a weird legal situation. I told them it's unsustainable for a country to stop doing scientific research, especially when Serbia is more or less known for having very good education, but it's basically a power play.
More importantly, they told me the teachers will stay there for as long as needed to get what they want. To me, this sounded kinda funny at first, but this is actually ballsy. The protest seemed rather peaceful, because in several other countries, they would have been kettled and suffocate in a cloud of tear gas. But then, during another day when I wanted to see a few buildings bombed by NATO (holy shit, can't describe how I felt when I saw this), I passed by the camp, and damn, it's hot as fuck in this country, and they were still there, and the camp was much larger than I initially thought. And when you have 5000 dinars for the month, well you better spend them well collectively. I think some students offered them food, mutual aid stuff.
The students confirmed another few things discussed in this thread: the use of a LRAD, the sketchy contract regarding the canopy in Novi Sad. And it's true that a couple of public squares were blocked with tents with almost no one in there, what a weird sight to behold. One in particular had barriers coated with some strange orange substance that is probably a kind of glue. A few people were hanging around in this one big park, but they had to pass a police check I believe.
I also saw students in front of an university building, but I didn't feel like asking them questions, cops were fucking everywhere and I had bigger problems to deal with, but they did have a PUMPAJ sign indeed lol.
What a fucking intense city goddamn, I could talk about it for hours.
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