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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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Not reporting is bourgeois


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Tomorrow a huge protest will be held in the capital of Serbia, Belgrade, protesting the government’s refusal to accept the demands made by the students, as well as protesting against general incompetence and corruption. From the student to the teacher, worker and pensioner, war veterans and children all around Serbia will gather together in this protest.
Is this really it? Some policemen announced that they won’t be going to work tomorrow and that they have no intention of beating up children. This might be the only chance that the opposition gets to forcefully remove the president from office.
The implications are obvious; a color revolution is in the works. Unlike the protests in Greece, the Serbian protests have no class character. The left is very weak, and the protest attendees range from neonazis to liberals and communists (most likely due to the fact the protests have been organized “apolitically”). The situation in Serbia is very volatile, and the validity of these protests need to be questioned more seriously, since no matter how much they deny it, this reeks of liberal infighting. Only time will tell what the consequences of these past few months will be, and whether this will be another October 5th or just a failed mass movement.

>>2188245
Please tell me you’re not going to call anyone that doesn’t side with a pro EU or Russian kleptocratic government a fucking nazi

You just love to make yourself and every other socialist lose don’t you?

>>2188245
>The implications are obvious; a color revolution is in the works.
Serbia has a very pro-Western, pro-business government though.

>>2188296
Yeah either that or they aren't USAID thugs considering USAID doesn't even exist anymore and other USAID funded ops have already run out of money and shut down. Serb Anons on here have also said the demonstrations are anti-EU and anti-austerity, that they actually want to move Serbia away from the West.

>>2188294
Acting as if the opposition won’t be just as pro eu if not worse

>>2188305
Do you have any evidence to support the claim that this is an op? In what way are their demands pro-Western? What has the Serbian government done to antagonize the West and make them a target? Why do they appear to be unaffected (indeed, even accelerating) despite the dismantling of USAID? As far as I can tell calling this a colour revolution is just a knee-jerk response to unrest in an Eastern European country, without any analysis of the movement, the government they're protesting against, or the conditions in the country. It could well be, but nobody is making any arguments as to why.

>>2188310
> Do you have any evidence to support the claim that this is an op?
It’s an anti government protest in a semi peripheral country, the only one of those in the past 20 years that wasn’t CIA backed was in Yemen

>>2188315
>It’s an anti government protest in a semi peripheral country
Okay so you're just making an assumption without any analysis.
>the only one of those in the past 20 years that wasn’t CIA backed was in Yemen
What about the farmer's protest in India? Anti-austerity demonstrations in Greece? Constitutional reform protests in Chile? Those are just off the top of my head. You can't seriously take a position based on such wild assumptions.

>>2188319
>all “mass movements” unless explicitly proven otherwise should be assumed to be funded by the same few actors
Okay so the general strike (the largest worker strike in history) organized by the Communist Party of India a few years ago was US imperialist op. You better prove otherwise if you disagree.
>followed shortly by an all out war against America and Russia
No need to overthrow the Serbian government then since they've already sold weapons to Ukraine that were used against Russia.

>>2188310
Vučić and his party have been a disaster for the Serbian people, however I would like to see what people actually have in mind if he falls. Vucic sold himself to the EU a long time ago and whether he falls or not the trend will inevitably continue. A large number of Protesters venerate Đinđić as a hero, which should also be telling considering how big of a piece of shit he was. Also, being against nato is not something impressive in Serbia, it’s expected. Many people don’t see the contradiction in supporting the eu while at the same time hating NATO.

>>2188294
to be pro-western, pro-business is not enough. One has to pathologically RUSSOPHOBE.
Hell, Putin himself has been pro-western for decades and is still pro-business.

>>2188324
the communist party of India is a joke

>>2188330
Not an argument. "All demonstrations are ops until proven otherwise" is an insane thing to unironically believe. It basically denies the existence of class struggle and turns into mindless tailism for shitty goverments in the semi-periphery. Serbia has a neoliberal, NATO-adjacent government yet here you are defending it.
>>2188332
Meds.

>>2188324
These guys are just conservatives. They don't like mass movements, they distrust and fear them. They like conservative, Bonapartist leaders. The problem is that for most Serbs, Vucic is cringe.

>>2188337
>They like conservative, Bonapartist leaders
Maybe there would be some sense to it if Serbia was actually anti-Western in its orientation, operated a state-centered economy, etc. There are a lot of telltale signs of something being a colour revolution, but nobody has been able to point to any here apart from maybe the prominent role played by students, although they're typically overrepresented in virtually all dissident movements.

>>2188333
The protests don’t intend on changing that, though. There is not a particle of class consciousness in the protests going on. If you think real systematic change can be made by some middle class led protests which didn’t even start as a movement against the government, and which had its only progressive demand made by the students, that being asking for free education, being strangled by people who don’t care about such problems, and having to change it to making the government spend 20% more on education

>>2188343
>If you think real systematic change can be made by some middle class led protests
I never said I think that. I asked for some basis for why this can be called a colour revolution.

>>2188344
>Class struggle of the 21st century is the Golden Billion against the periphery and rising multipolarity.
Okay well, Serbia's government is on the side of the former.

>>2188349
>Then it’s a color revolution by default
It's not a colour revolution unless it's part of a Western regime change effort to produce a substantially more Western-oriented government. If it's not that (and there is no indication that it is) then it's just a protest against austerity and education cuts.

>>2188345
I’d say that the constant pressure of and infiltration of the opposition, as well as ignoring real problems facing the working class of Serbia and putting all the problems in the umbrella term of “corruption”, as well as using rhetoric such as “fighting for a just and functioning system” and the constant classism and alienation of the poorest in the country and labeling them as illiterate (the sns is known for paying ridiculously low sums of money to its party members to attend rallies) is good enough proof for this being a color revolution

>>2188353
>putting all the problems in the umbrella term of “corruption”, as well as using rhetoric such as “fighting for a just and functioning system”
Sure, I'll concede that those could be indicators, but I'm still not seeing anything in Serbian policy that would make them a target in the first place. Plus there are many other indicators that are missing like waving EU and Western flags, signs in English, calls for privatization, calls for EU and NATO membership, anti-Russian rhetoric, vocal anti-communism, etc. It could just be that they lack class consciousness and so are focused on the wrong issues like vague "corruption" instead of class struggle.
>>2188354
>It’s literally being led by the intelligentsia
Hamas was founded by intelligentsia.
>waving LGBT flags
I don't see any in OP's picture.

>>2188356
Anti communism is rampant on both sides. There won’t be any changes and this has been a big waste of time for the people involved. They would accept hitler if it meant the fall of Vucic since it is only important to them that the illusion of change is kept

>multipolarists itt are already siding with a crumbling capitalist state to brutally crackdown on the discontent masses under the excuse of le color revolution
I warned you bitches about this like three years ago. These mfs will be the first to call for the fascist riot squad.
<inb4 there are neonazis mixed in too
There will always be fascists trying to userp popular movements, this does not negate the problems caused by the system.

>>2188361
>There will always be fascists trying to userp popular movements
I wish the same reasoning applied in the opposite direction. Myself and a number of communists were present in support of a miner's strike a while ago, and yet nobody gave us credit for turning into a communist strike with our presence. Smh.

>>2188332
>Serbia isn’t directly throwing her own people into the meat grinder to die for Israel, and that alone is a crime in the eyes of NATO
Serbia is like the no. 2 arms supplier to Israel behind the U.S., or pretty close to it. This is the same Serbia that supplied more than a billion dollars worth of ammunition to Ukraine. But Serbia never joined in anti-Russian sanctions.

Really it's that Vucic offers something to everybody in geopolitics. China invests in Serbia and is quite happy about that. The West has been fine with him because he de facto recognized Kosovo and opened up Serbia's resources to Western companies (which is one of the issues that started the protests). But for Serbs, he's cringe.

>>2188370
Well if "communism" is when you blindly support a NATO-aligned government that arms Israel and Ukraine then I can understand why.

>>2188361
>communists have to support every nothingburger revolution because…. YOU HAVE TO OK

>>2188372
I don't support them, I didn't even say I supported these specific protests. As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out and there's no need to take a position immediately. All I asked for is evidence that it's a colour revolution, and the best people can manage is to openly say they have no evidence and are just making an assumption.

>>2188373
The irony is that multipolarists will suppooort anything but a revolution.

>>2188374
I think I showed pretty ok prof of this being a color revolution. Yes, Vučić is a fucking retard and a western puppet, but if you really think that all the exports to Israel, the gentrification of public spaces, the rampant corruption and selling out to the west with the fall of the government, you’re an idealist. The only good thing to come out of the protests were the boycotts of supermarket chains for their bullshit prices

>>2188376
These protests show the discontent of the people for the neoliberal government more than the party itself. This fact doesn’t stop the fact that nobody capitalized on this fact

>>2188381
>but if you really think that all the exports to Israel, the gentrification of public spaces, the rampant corruption and selling out to the west with the fall of the government, you’re an idealist.
Well look, the efficacy of movements like this to make real change is a valid question, but it's a separate one from whether this is a Western backed op to install a more friendly government in Belgrade.

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>>2188381
>calls someone idealist
>believes in consumer boycotts

>>2188384
I think the question of whether or not this is a western backed movement is less important than people make it out to be itt. The fact of the matter is that the west wins no matter what, and that’s the sad situation we face today

>>2188388
The boycotts worked and the prices were slashed significantly. I’d calm that a win no matter how temporary

>>2188390
>The fact of the matter is that the west wins no matter what, and that’s the sad situation we face today
I don't know enough about Serbia to contest this, but if it's the case then certainly there's no reason to defend the government like some people here seem to insist on. From the sounds of things your main concern is that these protests seem to lack a serious proletarian basis, are not addressing the right issues, and are not doing so through the lens of class struggle. In that situation it's the tasks of communists to take raw energy and resentment stemming from class oppression and mold it into class consciousness, organization, and a socialist program.

If you spot any
>Ukrop flags
>EU flags
>those stupid fake belarussian lib flags
Then you know

File: 1741986859453.png (280.31 KB, 546x862, vucic.png)

This is old but a great thing about playing all sides is to confuse people into arguing with each other about whether you're based or woke.

>>2188468

They cannot comprehend the dialectical genius of Vucic

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>>2188472
An irony to this might be that the opposition also takes on a kind of all-sides character. Left, right, and center.

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Is this true? This is hilarious. On the one side, Vucic's people are like "NATO is trying to overthrow us" and then they go to NATO and say "Russia is trying to overthrow us."

>>2188483
lol all of these nationalist and liberal grifters from outside Serbia can’t comprehend the absolute shitshowbthat is happening in Serbia

beware the ides of march!!!

>>2188483
>both far left and far right have taken hold of the protests
>hijacked with EU elements and NGOs

sounds like Euromaidan all over again. waiting for agents provocateur, rooftop snipers, and RW militias to take over the "both left and right" protests.

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>>2188487
🤡🌎

will yugoslavia reappear?

>>2188301
I don't intend to defend Serbia, but didn't the students already back off all actual demands like free education and only leave liberal bullshit like good NGO boys they are? That was the situation the last time I looked and you acknowledged that. Are you trying to fall for it again?

>>2188325
>large number of Protesters venerate Đinđić as a hero
they absolutely do not, stop spreading lies. you can see their statements on Instagram

>>2188332
jugoimport is still selling weapons to Israel and Ukraine… Serbia is one step from formal integration in nato… why do you never do any research

>>2188509
>but didn't the students already back off all actual demands like free education and only leave liberal bullshit
If you have a source then post it. Last I heard they were still demanding more education funding and social spending, i.e. they were anti-austerity.
>Are you trying to fall for it again?
I haven't said I support the protests since its not really clear where they are going. I'm still waiting to see what happens.

>>2188343
but the situation is developing? several municipalities organized 'zbor's (similar to a plenum) and the student called for all to enter in these zbors and disregard the pairlament or the standing fake opposition in there. there's more and more worker's entering strikes, there are banners floating around calling for class war. it's developing. give it some time. the serbian leftists are taking it seriously. so should we.

>>2188509
>but didn't the students already back off all actual demands like free education and only leave liberal bullshit like good NGO boys they are?
no. they've repeatedly denounced the governments claim that any of the demands is fulfilled.

>>2188925
I hope you are right. Either way the left has to do everything in its power to make a difference. The plenums and protests aren’t going anywhere so might as well try and do something

>>2188930
you're missing the bigger picture. previously (four months ago) if you told someone that plenums (which only really held power in like faculties the last time there was student unrest (cca 2010)) are going up be the largest parapolitical structure currently you'd be called crazy. it's that Engelsian nonsense about boiling water. the water boiled recently, now it's simmering again.

>>2188932 (me)
in like two* faculties
not a flood not a flood

>>2188930
>so might as well try and do something
so you're like arguing as the fake opposition and liberals are 'but just let something happen' something IS already happening! we're are dopamine perverts and serotonin sluts but let's keep a cool head and not agitate for narodnik tactics

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TOTAL CHUD VICTORY! MILLIONS MUST SMILE! THE WORKING AND PEACEFUL SERBIA HAS WON!


>The protest attendees range from neonazis to liberals and communists (most likely due to the fact the protests have been organized “apolitically”)
That's the conditions of 21st century protests. Instead of crying about it we should deal with it.

>the Serbian protests have no class character
I'm not well-informed on the situation but this strikes me as lazy

>Sabo and Bloodgasm are on the scene to remind everyone that despite the prevalence of US interference with pretty much every social unrest (organic or not) you can't prove this is the same situation and therefore skepticism over the origins, motivations, likely outcomes of this unrest just means you're a simp for neolib governments, full Schizo about the CIA and simply against the workers
That is to say, they're undisciplined libs and they need to remind us of that every time these protests in Serbia arise

>>2189298
>>Sabo and Bloodgasm are on the scene to remind everyone that despite the prevalence of US interference with pretty much every social unrest (organic or not) you can't prove this is the same situation
Not what I said. I asked for any evidence at all that this is an op, and gave specific examples of indicators that were present in other obvious ops (Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc) that nobody has been able to reproduce here. Nobody can even point to a reason why the US would want to remove the current Serbian government, which has been highly cooperative with Western interests. I'm not asking for hard proof, but even just the telltale signs which don't seem to be here.
>and therefore skepticism over the origins, motivations, likely outcomes of this unrest
Skepticism about those issues is fine, but people are saying outright that this is a colour revolution despite openly admitting that they have no basis on which to think this apart from assumptions.

>>2189298
let's argue, for the sake of it, that this is entirely staged by the west. There isnt a single thing the communist of serbia can do about it, i havent been there but a few comrades of mine have and the communists of Serbia are in no position to do anything. they should defend the government… on the basis of what? what is there left to defend? the rebels havent yet made it clear that they want to become a US puppet, when that moment arrives the communists shall oppose it but this isnt yet the moment. defending the government now is suicide for the sake of suicide.

>>2189303
>>2189298
Also
>despite the prevalence of US interference with pretty much every social unrest
This is a ridiculous and laughable overstatement. Again, was the US behind the Indian farmer's protests? The anti-Zionist demonstrations in Europe? Were they behind the Yellow Vests in France and anti-NATO demonstrations in Greece? Get a grip man, the US is only going to sponsor movements that will advance their interests. If you're going to argue that this is an op then you at least need to show how this does so, even though the demonstrators hardly seem friendly to the EU and NATO while the Serbian government is.

>>2189308

No one is defending the government ran entirely by western puppets who have done everything on their powers to destroy Serbia inasmuch as they are calling out the bullshit protests which have as of yet not made one (1) critique of the current system outside of fighting for a system that “works” i.e fighting against corruption

>>2189312
communists… cant fight against corruption?

>>2189313
Fighting corruption is reformism, it assumes corruption is an outside element infecting the system rather than an integral part of said system

>>2189314
you can fight corruption while claiming it's an evil of capitalism

>>2189313
“Fighting against corruption” is such a nothingburger of a statement which can mean literally anything. No one likes the fact that the SNS is constantly stealing money and collaborating with the mafia, but again, what has the opposition to show for their anti corruption? They will continue to export arms to Ukraine and israel, privatization and will probably steal as much money as these did, probably less in the face

>>2189317
the communists could start opposing the government in that regard. movements are fluent not static, and so are their demands the communists should take the initiative

>>2189303
>>2189310
You're putting the horse before the cart, because what you're essentially asking for is proof that the discontentment and unrest is some kind of USAID funded psyop, but that's not the claim about what colour revolutions are.

>the US is only going to sponsor movements that will advance their interests

The unrest can be a end as well as the means, if the imperialists can't place a specific kind of leadership in charge of a nation that isn't considered within it's sphere of influence, then simply instigating enough social unrest that long term stability and development becomes difficult and becoming a regional player unlikely is still a worthwhile goal.

>The anti-Zionist demonstrations in Europe?

>Were they behind the Yellow Vests in France
>and anti-NATO demonstrations in Greece?
Europe in total is a threat to US hegemony in the region and historically was during the immediate post-war period and early cold war, it really shouldn't be beyond even your imagination let alone your capacity for logic to see that the US benefits from not having long-term relatively popular European leadership (I may remind you of the scandal over CIA spying of the Merkel government in Germany) and is willing to utilise movements against US interests more broadly *if* they also believe such movements won't succeed at anything other than creating the desired social unrest

>From the student to the teacher, worker and pensioner
>No class character
ok

>>2189323
Two of the classes mentioned there are lumpen

>>2189320
>because what you're essentially asking for is proof that the discontentment and unrest is some kind of USAID funded psyop, but that's not the claim about what colour revolutions are
Then what are they? And why should we oppose them if they aren't a pro-imperialist psyop instead of capitalizing on popular anger?
>if the imperialists can't place a specific kind of leadership in charge of a nation that isn't considered within it's sphere of influence, then simply instigating enough social unrest that long term stability and development becomes difficult
Serbia is within the Western sphere of influence, they're a NATO partner country and have participated in Western proxy wars in Ukraine and Palestine, supplying arms to both the AFU and IDF. The current government also supports EU membership and follows a neoliberal economic policy. The US has no reason to want them gone.
>Europe in total is a threat to US hegemony in the region
Delusional, Europe is a collection of US vassals and loyal auxiliaries. NATO and the EU is the cornerstone of US hegemony in Europe and the current government is amenable to both, as well as Western investment and business interests.

>>2189328
>Then what are they?
Opportunism, the colour revolutions of '89 were also opportunism for the US in the sense that there was legit discontentment over the economic fall out of the liberal reforms at the time.
>And why should we oppose them if they aren't a pro-imperialist psyop instead of capitalizing on popular anger?
Because the outcome isn't what anyone on the streets inevitably wants, I don't think people in '89 fully understood what they wanted but it certainly wasn't the shock therapy of the 90s and it's very unlikely that anyone in Kiev for Euromaidan wanted the extreme militarism and destruction of human rights that would block EU membership but their movement resulted in.

Therein lies the problem, you're assuming that if a load of people from various regions, with various political affiliations and of various class character all get bussed into the city centers (how such disparate groups organise this, welp..) have the same level of agency as a revolutionary proletariat.

>Serbia is within the Western sphere of influence

No, this is delusion. They are a manufacturer of weapons to Soviet specifications, thus an economic competitor to the US MIC by offering (alongside Russia and China) modern solutions compatible with the legacy stockpiles of Soviet origin many nations still have, rather than having to scrap it all to buy a whole new military essentially to the only other specification out there, NATO specifications.

That Serbia navigates hostility and negotiates continued tolerance of its existence by providing concessions to both NATO and Russia doesn't make them in the western sphere of influence.

>NATO partner country

You're referring to the Partnership for Peace, Russia is also a part of that.

>The current government also supports EU membership

And they're not allowed to have it because they can't also become NATO members when that's a package deal in 99% of cases.

>follows a neoliberal economic policy.

That's not a diktat from Washington, that's just the prescribed method for removing welfare privileges and concessions to the proletariat in the aftermath of the cold war

>Europe is a collection of US vassals and loyal auxiliaries.

And they stay that way by never having the stability to compete with the US in any meaningful way, by various methods, including inflaming social unrest.

>>2189345
So essentially any social unrest that happens outside of the US is objectively in US interests?

I don’t think anyone could have predicted how much of a failure tonight’s protest would be. The biggest protest in Serbia and it dissipated into nothingness

>>2189350
Not if the US suspects it's something that is against their interests *and* likely to succeed, which is rare.

>>2189345
>have the same level of agency as a revolutionary proletariat.
No, but you're not going to establish a revolutionary proletarian organization if you never interact with them or build upon their existing discontent. Class consciousness doesnt emerge spontaneously, and while it is absent class antagonism will express itself in a malformed way. Its the job of communists to change that. That means going to where these sites of malformed struggle are (e.g. unfocused protests against corruption) and educating/organizing them to produce class consciousness and a proletarian party. You certainly won't build one by rushing to the defense of every shitty right wing government that workers have legitimate beef with. The comparisons with 1989 are not apt, since those were socialist governments actually worth defending. This is a bourgeois government that needs to be eventually overthrown.
>They are a manufacturer of weapons to Soviet specifications, thus an economic competitor to the US MIC by offering (alongside Russia and China) modern solutions compatible with the legacy stockpiles of Soviet origin many nations still have
Virtually all ex-Warsaw Pact states still manufacture Soviet-designed weapons and modern variants thereof.
>That Serbia navigates hostility and negotiates continued tolerance of its existence by providing concessions to both NATO and Russia doesn't make them in the western sphere of influence.
No but openly siding with the US in the main current geopolitical conflicts does. Again, they are already providing weapons to Ukraine and Israel.
>You're referring to the Partnership for Peace, Russia is also a part of that.
Russia was also a major power that could conceivably post a threat to US interests, which is why it became a target. Serbia is not.
>And they're not allowed to have it because they can't also become NATO members when that's a package deal in 99% of cases
I'm sure Vucic would join NATO if it wouldn't result in him being lynched by his own people.
>That's not a diktat from Washington
Yes it is, colour revolutions are always accompanied by privatization, concessions to international finance capital, etc. However Serbia has already granted these.
>And they stay that way by never having the stability to compete with the US in any meaningful way, by various methods, including inflaming social unrest.
According to this logic communists should never support any potentially disruptive action in Europe because it might help the US.

Does your goldfish memory not have room for Georgia

I swear you are the dumbest motherfucker on here because you are always on here and think you can grow your knowledge base by doing reddit ass reply wars, you probably call other people online too

>>2189384
Georgia didnt send 880mil $in weapons and ammo to Ukraine
Why do faggots think that Vucic is some sort of anti imperialist
He wants to cuck to the west

>>2189384
>Georgia
<Government that was making clear and obvious pivots to Russia
<Protestors waving US and EU flags
<Carrying signs in English
<Calling to end "Russian influence"
<Seething about the USSR and "Russian imperialism"
<Demanding privatization, closer ties with EU and NATO, etc.
Where is any of that shit here?

>>2189394
I'm saying if you think that leaders with subimperialist aspirations (what you call cucked because the internet has permanently deformed your brain) are safe from western influence and that's a good reason not to even consider the idea that's pretty retarded because there are loads of examples of it being used to pressure them.
You prolly say the free Syria ppl didn't get western backing bc "Cuckssad" was trying to play both sides. It's just handwaving.

>>2189382
The protesters did a good job at alienating the peasants and the proletariat however. The uneducated layers of Serbian society have become a punchline for the middle class led protesters, who instead of sympathizing with the most exploited class, which is usually bought for pathetic amounts of money and cheap sandwiches.
What does the opposition offer to them? Neither money or respect. At least with the party they are guaranteed a job and when they join a party led protest they might even get a little money. Why should they join the protests? They are already seen as a joke to them, a bunch of toothless peasants who can’t even spell properly.
Are these the people we are to support? The ones actively alienating themselves from the most important needs of the people? Instead of uplifting the exploited proletariat they instead punch down from their ivory towers, showing their superiority. Out of all the valid criticisms they could have made against the government and system, they chose none. All the revolutionary potential is as of now gone

>>2189404
You rly love fucked up premises and bulletpoints. There were people saying Georgia protests couldn't be western backed because the govt was on the same kind of bullshit as their opposition. There is no minimum basedness level required to be regime changed

nothing of those protests are worth until yugoslavia is brought back btw

>>2189411
I'm not saying you *have* to support these specific protests, just that it's really ridiculous and unproductive to assume that any and all unrest is a glow op until proven otherwise.

>>2189413
>There is no minimum basedness level required to be regime changed
If you believe this then you essentially believe that the US overthrows governments for no reason and not because they are an impediment to their interests. What US interests is Serbia impeding?

>>2189416
I never said that it was western backed because as you said many times I have no proof of that. It doesn’t matter though because, as I said, they alienate the exploited working class and don’t make any meaningful critique of the system. If they win, best case for the west is that they get more influence into our politics. If the protests don’t lead to anything, they don’t lose anything and still get a powerful puppet

>>2189419
Why don't you ask the EU and US politicians whining about Serbia lol? There are plenty of things leaders can do which are decidedly unbased that still piss off the US.
Again my point is not to dismiss any ideas but to push back on the dismissal of investigation because "Vuvic isn't based enough it's all completely organic", that's just a dumb rhetorical game

>>2189423
No real disagreement here.

>>2189428
>Why don't you ask the EU and US politicians whining about Serbia
They aren't, quite the opposite actually, see >>2188499

>>2189431
So because he has allies he cannot have enemies? And the evidence is posts? I already mentioned wannabe subimperialists trying for playing both sides can still be treated to this kind of political pressure.
I don't really feel like getting into a screenshot war with Gaynazi that is some Plato's cave bullshit. There are loads of NATOids calling him a "Putin cockholster" go look it up.
Doing reality invention on an imageboard because your whole rhetorical strategy is to pick a position and never admit anything contrary to it is kind of childish

>>2189382
>According to this logic communists should never support any potentially disruptive action in Europe because it might help the US.
Unironically yes, if it's not a revolutionary movement driven by class conciousness then it ends up being exploitable, as we've seen repeatedly.

>That means going to where these sites of malformed struggle are (e.g. unfocused protests against corruption) and educating/organizing them to produce class consciousness and a proletarian party.

Yes, but this isn't something to count on or necessarily see as an opportunity, because it can already be too late by this point. Again, after the Euromaidan was usurped by the US, the installed government outlawed the communist party and arrested or even murdered its members.

>you certainly won't build one by rushing to the defense of every shitty right wing government that workers have legitimate beef with.

You keep trying to assert that this is the point I'm making and it's an attempt to turn the situation into a zero-sum game into either supporting the Serbian government wholeheartedly or supporting whatever may come out of disorganised unrest. That's being undisciplined, especially when you're handwaving away historical precedent and replacing it with absolutely nothing other than this brow-beating.

I am actually on the side of the workers, but I think that the current Serbian government are a known quantity, I think that's a better situation to be organising in rather than trying to shout over the disorganised masses and the US propaganda machine when *something else* is already in motion that may result in extremely unfavourable conditions for organising.

>>2189416
> just that it's really ridiculous and unproductive to assume that any and all unrest is a glow op until proven otherwise.
Again, that's not what is being said and I've seen you throughout multiple threads getting very irate at the concept that disorganised social unrest is vulnerable to hijacking without ever being able to explain why, instead repeating the same gotcha attempt of misunderstanding the point and demanding people explain how all discontentment and social unrest originates with a psyop.

>>2189505
>Again, that's not what is being said
It's been said explicitly ITT several times:
>>2188315
<It’s an anti government protest in a semi peripheral country, the only one of those in the past 20 years that wasn’t CIA backed was in Yemen
>>2188319
<all “mass movements” unless explicitly proven otherwise should be assumed to be funded by the same few actors
>>2188349
<Are the students demanding the government cease marching lock step with the west, to end the persecution of Russia and her people? No Then it’s a color revolution by default
>getting very irate at the concept that disorganised social unrest is vulnerable to hijacking.
Of course its vulnerable to hijacking, the question is by whom and whether there is evidence to support an accusation. People have pointed out some valid criticisms of this movement such as the lack of class consciousness, not enough organization, it not being sufficiently proletariat, etc. I don't take issue with any of these critiques, the only position I oppose is the immediate assumption that this is a colour revolution without any analysis or supporting evidence.

>>2188289
retard

>>2188483
yeah is just a incredibly unpopular goverment getting hate from all sectors of the population due to their sheer incompetence

ofc the leftypoltard morons itt can't wrap their heads around this

>>2189523
>Of course its vulnerable to hijacking
And that's the important part
>the question is by whom and whether there is evidence to support an accusation.
Is an irrelevancy and serves only to directly the conversation to where you took it which is handwaving away that vulnerability, handwaving away historical precedent even with very recent cases, brow-beating about "rushing to the defence of every shitty right wing government" against the workers, lecturing about how the time for action is when action has already been organised by some other entity of unknown motivations.

You're trying to say "Yes, but" when there isn't a but here. Disorganised movements are vulnerable to hijacking, disorganised movements arranging mass protests are not likely to be wholly organic even if the motivations of each individual are, there is a historical precedent of the US organising social unrest that no single domestic movement was capable of arranging, it is true that the US broadly benefits from every other nation, friend-or-foe, living in chaos.

Saying, therefore, that such movements are something to be sceptical of and to express remorse that despite the discontentment, Marxism isn't a uniting philosophy for any of these movements and they're just a mishmash of any and all discontentment from all angles like >>2189546 suggests it is, is natural. To look at this situation and consider it bullish is misplaced optimism if-not just simple opportunism.

>>2189549
>Is an irrelevancy
<It's irrelevant whether there is actual evidence to support my position
The absolute state of this place.

>>2189556
Again, with what evidence are you handwaving away recent historical precedence? Why are you such a stickler for a leaked email from the CIA specifically discussing starting and/or usurping this particular movement? Why are you so fixated on the removal of the current government over what will actually replace it, when we don't know what that is?

>The absolute state of this place

I was waiting for you to actually use the phrase "vulgar anti-Americanism" to say the same thing

>>2189564
>Again, with what evidence are you handwaving away recent historical precedence? Why are you such a stickler for a leaked email from the CIA specifically discussing starting and/or usurping this particular movement?
No, I've listed several characteristics which pointed to previous colour revolutions here >>2189404 and here >>2188356

Thus "historical precedence" argument you're making doesn't stand up to scrutiny, because in previous cases there was actual evidence indicating Western involvement. Plus the targeted governments were actual obstacles to US interests in identifiable ways. I don't buy this crap about them causing chaos just for its own sake tbh. Serbia is hardly a competitor to the US worthy of sabotage as an end in itself.
>I was waiting for you to actually use the phrase "vulgar anti-Americanism" to say the same thing
Vulgar anti-Americanism is totally justified though. My issue isn't with a general multipolarist outlook, but jumping to conclusions about what these protests represent.

>>2189568
>No, I've listed several characteristics which pointed to previous colour revolutions here >>2189404 and here >>2188356
That's all circumstantial, it neither adds nor detracts from the damning history the CIA has for regime change which have all had varying aesthetics in each case because they're good at their job of manipulating discontent regardless of what the underlying conditions are.

>because in previous cases there was actual evidence indicating Western involvement.

Unironically claiming it's a colour revolution only when there are signs written in English, is probably the silliest thing I've ever read on this imageboard, so silly I actually don't feel like insulting you over it as you surely deserve.

>Plus the targeted governments were actual obstacles to US interests in identifiable ways. I don't buy this crap about them causing chaos just for its own sake tbh

From the bias of only looking at the concessions it makes towards the US/NATO and not those to Russia, but again I assume this is just extreme silliness rather than wilful ingeniousness.

>https://www.politico.eu/article/president-aleksandar-vucic-serbia-vote-in-favor-un-resolution-ukraine-mistake/

The obstacle to US interests is not fully obeying US diktats, more importantly, the Serbian state has not fomented an anti-Russian society, where the leader has to say Sorry for "accidentally" voting against Russia. That these protests do not have teenagers running around with English signs saying "Fuck Russia" *is* a coup-able offence in of itself.

But I suppose you'll now tell me you don't buy this crap that the US needs total domination of narrative in any nation in its sphere of influence, that Serbia *is* in the US sphere of influence but Washington has just gracefully allowed it to continue having a pro-Russian sentiment amongst its citizenry and allows it to contradict and disagree with US narratives at the state-level.

At this point, it's just a race to the bottom of the barrel of what "buts" you can come up with for "Yes, but".

>>2189578
>That's all circumstantial
How is it circumstantial? They're all clear indicators of the pro-Western orientation of these movements. They're facts weighing in favour of a colour revolution, and yet here virtually all of them are absent.
>Unironically claiming it's a colour revolution only when there are signs written in English
I didn't claim that, I said that they're an indicator, one of many and almost none of which are here. Colour revolution movements often display signs in English because they're audience is the West not their own country. It's part of a tactic to manufacture consent. Meanwhile Western media barely mentions these demonstrations at all, whereas with Ukraine, Venezuela, and Hong Kong they loudly amplified it. Yet another missing indicator.
>From the bias of only looking at the concessions it makes towards the US/NATO and not those to Russia
Their concessions to Russia are insignificant. What? They voted with them on some meaningless resolution at the UN? Damn that totally makes up for supplying the Banderites with ammunition to kill Russian soldiers. This is grasping at straws.

So I guess Serbs are truly like the polacks, subhuman degenerates who are filled with contradictions. At least Americans are openly spiteful of anyone who’s not the US whereas subhuman Serbs don’t even know what the fuck is going on, I say nuke the country and get rid of it, just like Poland. I would argue for nuking Israel but I won’t since I prefer the land to be given to Palestinians.

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>>2188294
Ngl, but for me, suddenly bringing "Serbia [is] pro-Western" out of nowhere, while a more interesting fact might be that the average monthly rent in Belgrade is 350€ for a small room, and the average wage for normies is ~750€, is …. pic related (where you go to forget your dreams)

>>2188294
>Serbia has a very pro-Western, pro-business government though.
They haven't been condemning Hamas, Russia and China loudly enough and have even been promoting trade with Russia and China. Given the conditions in Eastern Europe, the history, and the exposure of USAID fomenting shit in Ukraine and Romania weeks ago it's ridiculous to argue that this perfectly timed shit is organic.

>>2189702
Why didn't it happen right at the same time as in Tbilisi, then?

>>2189702
Truth is its irrelevant and performative. 80% of Serbian in and out trade is still with EU and neighbors. What Marx saying? Economy is base, the rest (society, politics) is superstructure.

Wake me up when an actual proletarian movement rises up and not a coalition of all Serb petty bourgeois.

From what I know

>students denounced any kind of expert/transitional government by the fake opposition

>students denounced TV Serbia's comment by an "Israeli" historian how their bloodied hands are akin to Hamas
>demonstrators chase away people with EU or Ukrainian flags
>the two neoliberal student organizations (Stav and SviĆe) which are the youth branch of PSG (Movement of Fre Citizens, EU neolibs) have been shunned from the blockades
>students are not calling for any political party or structure to take the lead but are calling for citizens to themselves organize meetings (zbor) to organize in a plenum (soviet) fashion
>students are left and left-liberal, but Belgrade plenums are more radical than Novi Sad plenums

Now the demands to fight corruption, for the institutions to start working etc. which are popular slogans are NOT the student demands. Here are some threads where Serbanons discuss the situtation.
https://archive.ph/DJ38d
https://web.archive.org/web/20250316073125/https://leftypol.org/leftypol/res/2128645.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20250316073354/https://leftypol.org/leftypol/res/2157647.html

These are the demands
1. Publication of documentation related to the reconstruction of the canopy in Novi Sad.
2. Dismissal of the indictments filed against the illegally detained students.
3. Filing criminal charges against participants in violence against students.
4. Determining the identity of the persons who participated in the violence and severely sanctioning them, regardless of whether they are employed in the private or state sector.
5. Increasing the budget for financing state faculties by 20%.
None of them have been fulfilled. 1, 3, 4 collapse the regime, 5 was blocked to be passed by the fake opposition when they tried to stage a farsical Jan 6th a few days ago. It this regard the demands are very good. They cannot be fulfilled without the SNS regime collapsing.

Quoting a previous thread for all the dopamine addicts and happening whores:

<This is an actual honest to god mass movement that is organized around soviets (without communists, lol) and it has been recognized as almost equal to the state. People are calling for the plenum to be instutionalized in the laws of the Republic.

<Sure, it's still not revolutionary in the sense that they're going to overthrow the state and establish a proletarian dictatorship, but seeing this development after 30 years of capitalist counterrevolution is a great signal everywhere that the movement is not dead and that the soviet form is the only form that can battle a bourgeois state.

>>2189636
>Their concessions to Russia are insignificant. What? They voted with them on some meaningless resolution at the UN?
let's just mention in passing that when the UN recently voted for a quicker end to the war in ukraine (or whatever the resolution was) USA and Russia voted NO, while EU and Serbia voted YES. Vučić then had to come out and say uwu im sowwy for the mix up &.&

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>>2189404
The colour revolutions of the early/mid-2000s didn't have these, they did have the narrative of protesters having no particular organisation or affiliation other than just a general outrage over corruption and incompetence that conveniently opens the door to pretty much any kind of leadership coming to power, that always inconveniently means the pro-NATO, pro-USAID, anti-Communist and anti-Russian party comes to power.

You have colour revolutions in order to ensure a sharply anti-Russian, anti-Communist, zealously pro-Western institution reaction develops towards any attempts for a nation (like Georgia) to make independent and self-interested developments, i.e not making moves towards EU and NATO membership.

That all those orange lines happened in Georgia recently is not an indicator of a colour revolution now, but that there was a successful colour revolution previously.

>>2188310
> Western non-strongman = bad
> Non-western strongman = good

>>2189818
> Western non-strongman
Wow you're just coming right out with the western-bias today.

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>>2188319
Oh fuck I forgot that the masses are passive actors who literally would sit in the bed all day long spinning their fingers unless lead by a state or some secret conspiracy shit

>>2189820
…what?

Bitches discovered USAID existed after Trump destroyed it and now they can't shut up about it. Can we return to calling everything CIA?

>>2189814
>The colour revolutions of the early/mid-2000s didn't have these, they did have the narrative of protesters having no particular organisation or affiliation other than just a general outrage over corruption and incompetence that conveniently opens the door to pretty much any kind of leadership coming to power, that always inconveniently means the pro-NATO, pro-USAID, anti-Communist and anti-Russian party comes to power.

okay so you admit Vučić is the pro-NATO, pro-USAID, anti-Communist and anti-Russian party. Because the political climate that made Vučić possible was the 6th Oct coup d etat when Milošević was overthrown and what remained of publically owned indutry was privatized. Vučić is just Đinđić, but more pragmatic

>>2188344
< Unironic proletarian nation shit
Bentornato pelatone. Ti sfascio la testa con la spranga che ho disopra diocane

>>2189839
No, Vuvic is the same kind of "both Moscow and Washington" leader that was common to the post-Soviet, nationalist governments that were the target of colour revolutions.

The purpose of the colour revolution is to replace "both Moscow and Washington" with "sharply anti-Russian and zealously pro-West" which, if successful, gets expressed by re-writting the history of the 90s and early-2000s where the shock therapy economics that created the poverty, corruption and apparent incompetence that people are protesting against, were not at the suggestion of Western political advisors, the party instigating such economics were not receiving funding from the West and the apparent incompetence was not actually just the West picking at the bones of these post-Soviet states.

Instead, "both Moscow and Washington" actually just meant "Moscow" and Russia was solely funding and propping up and rigging elections for these corrupt leaders because, Russia, right? That they were broadly suffering the same issues in the 90s is irrelevant, or actually completely relevant in proving that Russia was just infecting other nations with their Russian-ness, that shock therapy economics was a diktat from Moscow and not the US and it's good-old Russian Chauvanism that means ALL Eastern European nations have to have the same issues as Russia.

So, because Vuvic is still saying "both Moscow and Washington", he is still a target for a colour revolution.


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>>2188509
They did not

>>2188646
Because >>2189818 no thinking required


>>2189856
let's not be ridiculous, this could've been totally organised by western NGOs. this, however, dosent mean that the anger towards the government is unfounded, what a real movements should do is redirect this anger towards something more vital. in the meantime they'll work with what they have

>>2189850
The potential actors that could've lead a color revolution have all but been discredited and students in blockade are not playing in their hand. Serbia is still very much an anti-Nato and EU-skeptic country. All the fake opposition parties (PSG, ZLF, ProGlas etc.) have no popular support. They've tried several times to take over the protests. Once in Novi Sad when there was a 3hr turned 24hr blockade. First the plenum FFBG distanced themselves, then did several other larger plenums. Then they made a scene in the Pairlament on 8th Mar (If I recall correctly) to 'denounce' Vučić and tried to steer a colon of their supporters, but it was like 50 people and the situation calmed down. Fun fact, the opposition did this scene right about as 5th demand (more funding for education) was to be put into law (I'm hazy on the contents but it was 50% less for tuition which make life of many workingmen children so much easier). And then last night when there were falseflags coming from Vučić's men and the opposition leaders where out for blood yet the students said no, our protest is over, and nothing happened, again. There really is no fertile ground for any color revolution. FFS Serbs are starting en masse to self organize and chase out representatives of big capital. Serbia's history is not the same as the history of ex-soviet states. There is more living memory about the Nato agression and a general anti-Western sentiment across the board.

>>2189320
> You are putting the cart before the horse
< Proceeds to give his assumption as correct and goes backwards from there to provide a reason

>>2189860
That's all fine, the only thing I'm trying to explain to the thread is *why* this could be the target of the US trying to organise the disparate groups and turn it into a colour revolution and thus disorganised social unrest is something to be cautious over.

>>2189862
I have very little respect for your posting as well moffin' so there's nothing to discuss there.

>>2189864
Maybe a more telling indication how mature these students are is this. A 3hr blockade of three bridges in Novi Sad on Feb 2nd was voted for by the Plenums and there were formal student delegations sent from Belgrade and other cities. During the walk there, the FFUNS plenum (at that time mostly influenced by Stav/SviĆe; neolib student youth) voted to extend the bridge blockade to 24hr, tried to sneak in some dubious speakers. Of course, when news broke out, FFBG plenum denounced the speakers and did not join the 24hr blockade. Other faculties followed. The opposition planned to hold a 'citizens plenum' on the bridge then. They (ProGlas) probably expected they could present the idea of an expert government to the plenum and then have it vote for it. But this failed. The people shunned them, there was (is) a power struggle in NS and nothing happened. But after some month, people in Bogatić started declaring 'zbors' and discussing the issues of Rio Tinto's interest in Mačva etc. and chased the representatives of Rio Tinto out of the municipal building. There there were other sponantenous zbors organized in some places. Only then did the students start pushing this idea of 'citizen plenums' aka zbors. So it's really good what's happening. The 4 month long blockade of higher institutions (can you imagine??) is not getting subverted, and it's seeping among the workers. Say, for example, there were strikes of GSP (public city transportation), ESP (electrodistribution), city farmacies (in Kragujevac and in Belgrade) and there was student support and solidarity with them, but not with the fake opposition. It's good, it's good. Everything is happening always.

>>2189868
Well that does sound a lot more positive and has more cause for optimism, I assume you are Serbian or otherwise have more intimate knowledge what's happening on the streets and that is very useful context, sorely missing from this thread so far.

By Sabo's admission and from my own admission, the discussion thus far hasn't been towards the particularities of this movement, but more abstractly about supporting disorganised movements in general.

Ultimately, I'm arguing against the take ITT that seems to be "Social unrest is better than nothing" and the details of that (like what is proposed to replace the current government and are the protesters likely to have the agency to successfully achieve their own regime change) are irrelevant because *anything* is better than a neolib government and if you don't agree with that then it's because you're simping for and defending said neolib government.

In all honesty, I suspect that take comes from the complete demoralisation of anons ITT to understand the chances of any of these movements being Marxist in nature are essentially nil and thus ANY movement is exciting by default. For anti-campists, the overthrow of a corrupt government with a western installed one in a colour revolution isn't good but it's not the end of the world (if you ignore historical precedent of course), so it's worth the risk to them, especially when they've made the case that the outcome of this or that political manoeuvring "proves" the outgoing regime were already cucks to the US and NATO anyway.

>>2189549
Bitch you just want a movement already organized from nothing instead of actually trying to meet the needs of the proletariat
< but they aren't proles
Soon to be proles, students, educators and a bunch of micio macho proles >>2189556
>>2189556
No wonder staff wants new blood

>>2189578
> t. I have no proof but I must simp

>>2189323
>students of the world, unite! you have nothing to lose but your father's allowance

>>2189872
>>2189873
And thank you Moffin' for jumping in and quickly proving these points
>In all honesty, I suspect that take comes from the complete demoralisation of anons ITT to understand the chances of any of these movements being Marxist in nature are essentially nil and thus ANY movement is exciting by default.
>because *anything* is better than a neolib government and if you don't agree with that then it's because you're simping for and defending said neolib government.
for me.

>>2189866
I don't want the respect of someone spewing bullshit from all pores

>>2189877
You're a shitposter and unconscious (one hopes) of your pro-western bias.

Unfortunately I don't speak Yugoslav so I can't do this for you.

What are 3 uniting points between the Yugoslav tankies trots and student communists who are out in the streets there and at home banging pots and pans?

>>2189874
As we all know, students are a separate class and not the sons and daughters of proletarians who will soon become proletarian themselves in a few years

>>2189881
>who will soon become proletarians
you just made my argument for me, skipped right from my meme reply to what i was about to say, congrats
wake me up when it's a proletarian movement, should be soonTM if your estimate is correct

>>2189879
For being mildly interested in a movement which is movimg against the famous anti-westerner Vuvic the multipolarista? Lol
You idiots are stuck thinking that class struggle is lead between the great man of the world with the large masses of people simply passively standing by, not incapable of wants, forming ideas or organizing ability.
>>2188366
> Serbia is like the no. 2 arms supplier to Israel behind the U.S., or pretty close to it.
>>2189328
> Serbia is within the Western sphere of influence, they're a NATO partner country and have participated in Western proxy wars in Ukraine and Palestine, supplying arms to both the AFU and IDF. The current government also supports EU membership and follows a neoliberal economic policy. The US has no reason to want them gone.

>>2189882
Ladies and gentleman, students are a separate class detached from the prole-bourge dynamic apparently. A great advancement in "ML" theory has been accomplished

Thank you Moffin and Multipolaristas for derailing another thread.

>>2189887
we're still talking about Serbia you donkey. we're tryng to make you understand that Vucic is NOT your friend

>>2189885
>ok it's not a proletarian movement but le masses bro
oh god i'm getting flashbacks again
DEIXA TER COPA, PAGA A NOVA PASSAGEM DO ÔNIBUS, NÃO APOIA O IMOEACHMENT NÃO NÃO NÃO NÃÃÃÃÃOOOOOOO!!!!!!! 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

>>2189886
you've backed yourself into a corner and now you're accusing me of holding your position LMAO
you just said that they "will become proletarian themselves in a few years", are you not claiming they don't fit in a prole-bourg split unless you say they are bourg? it's either that or you backpedal from what you claimed earlier

>>2189888
I know. Read my posts here
>>2189868
>>2189860
>>2189795

I would still like see one systematic critique made either by students or the protesters which addressed the problems facing the nation today. Concerning the Zbors, we shall see what comes of them, it seems to my limited understanding like a place where more serious political discourse may happen. From this point maybe the protests weren’t a huge waste of time. However, if we assume that the government does accept the blame and eventually steps down, what then? What is the best case scenario for serbia when the system itself which made Vucic’s rise to power even possible wasn’t changed in any way, outside of maybe asking for more transparency, which means nothing basically.

>>2189885
>For being mildly interested in a movement
No, for being an undisciplined lib. Undisciplined because you care more about action than outcome, a lib because if that outcome was a colour revolution you'd apparently not consider that a bad thing (because of the aforementioned western bias).

The evidence is in this concern trolling for Serbia's supposedly dedicated support for Israel and Ukraine based on the weapons they sell on the open market ending up in those warzones, the way this is described by Vuvic (if a quote won't make you projectile vomit) is
>“This is a part of our economic revival and important for us. Yes, we do export our ammunition,” he said in an interview. “We cannot export to Ukraine or to Russia . . . but we have had many contracts with Americans, Spaniards, Czechs, others. What they do with that in the end is their job.
>“Even if I know [where the ammunition ends up], that’s not my job. My job is to secure the fact that we deal legally with our ammunition, that we sell it . . . I need to take care of my people, and that’s it. That’s all I can say. We have friends in Kyiv and in Moscow. These are our Slav brothers.”
There is absolutely no reason why a nation within the US sphere of influence would need to put weapon supplies through third-parties, nations that are in NATO did not have to jump through such hoops, in fact nations who are in the US sphere of influence directly donate their equipment to Ukraine with the promise that they can *buy* US produced replacements.

If there was a pro-US colour revolution in Serbia (that we're not supposed to care about if we're not simps for Vuvic or look to historical precedent on) the only way that situation changes is that Serbia drops the pretence of neutrality and supplies Ukraine directly and not for the market rate of those weapons, the supplies become moral rather than economic in nature.

So the only reason to make this point that Serbia are already in the US sphere of influence, is to essentially already pre-justify a pro-US colour revolution if one were to come out of this (despite insistences that's an impossibility until proven otherwise), on the basis that it's a sidewards step geopolitically and the unconscious bias towards the west presumes the relevant outcome is more political freedom (Vuvic is a strongman!).

Again, historical precedent is that nations that fall to extremely pro-West and extremely anti-Russian governments also become extremely anti-Communist, going so far as to ban parties, smear or arrest activists as foreign agents and the dismantling of their Communist legacy and providing a reappraisal of Nazi collaborators as brave heroes fighting against the scourge of communism.

>>2189902
People itt think that any mass movement automatically has the position to gain class consciousness. How? From the start this was a middle class movement which did all in its power to make it an us vs them dynamic, (“us” being the well educated and well meaning citizens who want a functioning government vs the “them”, the stupid undereducated masses of people easily bought by the government). Fine, good, the government is a neoliberal shithole which should be ousted from power, but the conditions for less of a western backed regime to be put in charge don’t exist, especially since the extent of the critique of the government were limited to Christian flags and anti eu and anti nato flags being flown on the streets on the protests, which as many have realized on here, is just an expected thing to see from Serbs and not a sign of actual anti neoliberalism. Not to mention the fact that N1 (news network under the control of CNN) has become widely the only accepted news media, which people believe report (relatively) unbiasedly. What will this mean for the working class? Nothing, see >>2189411

>>2189411
No. The opposition leaders did that. I think there's a mix up here that the student blockades and the citizen unrest are somehow the same thing. The blockades are what is important, universeties are effectively on strike for 4 months. When the citizens trot along it's more of a decoration than the substance.

>>2189919
Oh and I forgot, if you knew Serbian you could read the comments on the posts of the students in blockade. None of them are alienating the working class or the farmers. More is true, they're even defending the most vulnerable from the fascistic EU libs.

>>2189919
Doesn’t matter who started it, saying “ćaci” (a term which was made after someone vandalized a school, writing ćaci instead of đaci) has become a widespread phenomenon and expected during protests. If we are talking about a mass movement, which we are, we have to accept the fact that at this point it has been usurped by classist elements (sometimes racist as well).

>>2189917
>People itt think that any mass movement automatically has the position to gain class consciousness. How?
An extremely prolific (and extremely unsuccessful) tactic amongst the western intelligentsia is supporting a centrist party or movement to power, in order to then "pull them" left despite their victory with centrist policies giving them the legitimacy and mandate to ignore left-wing pressure groups.

The fundamental misunderstanding this intelligentsia has, is in believing that with enough "democracy", the capitalist class will listen to and respect the opinions of the intelligentsia as much as they listen and respect themselves when talking in the halls of academia.

When the capitalist class turn out to *not* care what the intelligentsia thinks when it contradicts profiteering and upholding the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, well that's because they're still not democratic enough and they need the centre of democracy (the US and/or Europe) to help them get the required level of democracy by force. When the proletariat and peasant class do not agree that academic idealism understands the material realities of their experience, well then those people are just stupid and should learn where their place is when the ackshually educated people are talking.

>>2189850
>Instead, "both Moscow and Washington" actually just meant "Moscow"
Yeah sure m8. When has Serbia ever supplied weapons to people killing American soldiers?

>>2189814
>that conveniently opens the door to pretty much any kind of leadership coming to power, that always inconveniently means the pro-NATO, pro-USAID, anti-Communist and anti-Russian party comes to power
That argument might hold merit if these protestors weren't actively hostile to such people and chasing them away. Also the fact that the end of USAID seems to have had zero impact on them is another factor that people are just sweeping under the rug.

>>2189939
Conveniently, you are still stuck at this argument. Just because you are formally against nato and the eu (large chunk of protesters aren’t) doesn’t mean shit if the actions they are supporting are also in one way or another convenient to the same organizations they are “against”

>>2189942
>doesn’t mean shit if the actions they are supporting are also in one way or another convenient to the same organizations they are “against”
Except that you haven't actually explained how they're convenient or in what way any of this advances US interests apart from claiming the US wants to sow chaos for its own sake even among friendly governments that do not meaningfully oppose them.

>>2189890
< ok it's not a proletarian movement but le masses bro
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

>>2189944
US-NATO hegemony won’t be at stake if the protests succeed. For all the talk about how anti nato and wu the protests are, the same people who are vehemently against these two also voted for Vucic (among others)

>>2189946
>US-NATO hegemony won’t be at stake if the protests succeed
They won't he at stake if they fail either. This looks more like an organic single issue movement that will likely amount to minor reforms if it accomplishes anything at all. That describes like 90% of protest movements anyways.

>>2189902
> you care more about action than outcome, a lib because if that outcome was a colour revolution you'd apparently not consider that a bad thing
?????????????????????????????
You're the one who already assumes what is going on is a color revolution, despite the tipical telltale signs not being there and showing no proof whatsoever.
> The evidence is in this concern trolling for Serbia's supposedly dedicated support for Israel and Ukraine based on the weapons they sell on the open market ending up in those warzones, the way this is described by Vuvic (if a quote won't make you projectile vomit) is
< The poor little dungus has no choice but to end up selling weapons to genociders
You could use this shitty defense for literally any military contractor on this forsaken planet

>>2189942
> the actions they are supporting are also in one way or another convenient to the same organizations they are “against”

>>2189951
That is what hap be when you build a movement not based on any one political agenda

>>2189937
AK patterned Zastava weapons are prolific around the globe being used by paramilitaries and terrorist orgs with it not really being worth investigating how exactly they came into possession of them because there are loads of AK clones that end up in the same hands and buying weapons from a company like Zastava legitimately via third parties and then distributing them via mysterious channels and less legal enterprises is just how the black market for weapons works.

If Zastava sells a crate of guns to third party, who then sells them on the black market, that then gets procured by a shadowy organisation to provide a group like ISIS with weapons that are supposed to be untraceable back to said organisation (other than they were Serbian made) and those weapons get turned on the US or against US interests, the last thing the US wants is an inquiry that may reveal the shadowy organisation was American without being able to blame Serbia for the entire black market and how it's used.

Essentially the same thing happens for Serbian guns to end up in Ukraine, but this time there is a vested interest in trying to make a strong connection between Serbia and the guns that arrive in Ukraine to split relations between Serbia and Russia, they're just glossing over that seemingly Vuvic has name dropped the US, Spain and the Czech Republic as already having the contacts to purchase Serbian guns for some reason despite not using those guns themselves. You just have to pretend the entire network of the international black market for weapons dealers just stopped existing during this particular war, pretend that Zastavas hitherto were really tightly controlled by Serbian trade authorities, assume the weapons Ukraine received were all factory fresh rather than a mixture of newly manufactured guns and guns "lost" during the collapse of Yugoslavia.

The ghoulishness behind the Vuvic quote is that basically Serbia never cared where their guns end up, they want the money and they just assure anyone (Russia or otherwise) that if they find a Zastava pointed at them, it's nothing personal.

>>2189939
>That argument might hold merit if these protestors weren't actively hostile to such people and chasing them away.
We've already covered it with Euromaidan that what people want and what they get aren't the same thing if the US manipulates such movements to what's more in their interests, so in Ukraine they wanted a hyper-militaristic Nazi-loving bulwark against positive Russian sentiment in Ukraine, more than they wanted one of the poorest and most corrupt markets joining the EU. Go figure.

So even if people are expressing opposition to EU and NATO, opposition to US interests, that's no more deterministic of what the outcome will be than when people are protesting in favour of US interests (or what they wrongly presume are)

>>2189956
This thread has been going in circles ever since people started to defend the protests because “they are anti-west”, even though that means nothing in the Serbian context. By this logic, the fascists were anti capitalist because of their anti capitalist rhetoric

>>2189962
Ah it goes in circles because Moffin, Sabo and Bloodgasm can't (or won't) explain where their optimism for such movements come from despite there being no revolutionary proletariat movement or party uniting the masses and defend themselves with shitposts, projection and crap attempts at rhetorical gotchas.

If people are optimistic about action for actions sake and say stuff to the effect of any or all of the following
>We should be applauding whomever organised these protests for doing what Marxists didn't
>I don't care about historical precedent, show me definitive proof that the CIA are ordering the protests or working to manipulate them *this* time
>Well you can rush to defend neoliberal governments against the workers, but I'm sticking with the workers :^)
>The protesters motivations are organic and therefore so is their spontaneous organisation despite a lack of consensus or class awareness, this is bullish, we can influence the movements I just said we were too weak to foment in the first place
>Billions of dollars of USAID funding can run out in a month and there's no long term planning behind its spending
And the crucial one
>We EVEN if I am wrong and the movement does get usurped by the US, that's irrelevant because the current government are already US vassals
Demonstrating that under all the disingenuous shitposting and moralising, their optimism that this can't and won't likely be usurped is because they're confident being wrong and a colour revolution prevailing changes nothing wrt to Serbia's independence to US influence and imperialism but will remove a non-western strongman with a presumably more politically liberal leadership that Italians, Canadians and other western leftists have and "understand" organising against.

They've allowed themselves the freedom to be wrong, that if this moonshot misses then Serbia land amongst the stars of bourgeois democratic liberalism, which is very much Moffin and Sabo's court where they can discuss Serbia from what we can charitably call "experience" of being leftists within western liberalism.

>>2189981
I didn't express any optimism about this. I said it looks like a single issue reformist movement that at best will secure some minor changes like more education funding or something. I just don't think it looks like a colour revolution.
>that if this moonshot misses then Serbia land amongst the stars of bourgeois democratic liberalism
They already are that ffs. This colour revolution will remove a pro-Western liberal and replace them with a pro-Western liberal?

>>2189985
>They already are that ffs
If you genuinely can't tell the difference, then you're rather naive I'm afraid.

>>2189998
Arming Ukraine and Israel and actually voting with them at the UN is fine, but they apologized about it once so that makes them based multipolarists that nobody is allowed to oppose lest they inadvertently advance the interests of the US despite being explicitly opposed to them.

>>2190004
Hey I was joking >>2189818

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>>2188344
>Golden Billion

>>2190004
That's really your take away from the hours I've spent talking to you?

What would happen should Vucic resign? Does the opposition have more competent fence-sitters on standby or are they EU stooges? Is Vucic an outlier in Serbian politics? Too many questions to ask. although we can't forget color revolutions work by initially hijacking perfectly legitimate protests so it may be too early to tell

>>2190036
It's literally a succinct statement of your position lmao. No matter how compliant Serbia is with every substantial US interest, they're still a target for regime change because of insignificant nonsense like apologizing after voting with Ukraine at the UN. All protest movements are susceptible to subversion therefore we should assume that they're compromised even when there is no actual evidence to suggest this, and when they are actively resisting attempts at infiltration. Even movements are that are consciously opposed to US interests are actually serving US interests if they cause any disruption or disorder. These are all things that have been said ITT.

>>2190047
>supporting a classist nothingburger of a movement is good, actually

>>2190051
You know, you don't have to take a position on everything. We can just treat this like what it is, which is neither an insidious Western regime change op nor a revolutionary upheaval, but a movement focused on a small handful of issues that it might secure some reforms on.

>>2190047
>It's literally a succinct statement of your position lmao
It clearly isn't, you've just reiterated the short shitposts that spurred my effortposts clarifying my position, just for you to fall back on the initial shitpost seemingly utterly unchanged by anything I said.

Yeah, Sabo Cat? Pig ignorant, more like.

>>2190040
Eu stooges

>>2190056
Seems to me like you’re fighting tooth and nail to prove its legitimacy. Let’s call this what it is, a middle class led movement headed by liberal intelligentsia, which later spewed out into the streets which of course resulted into that which we see today. Sorry to say but seems like a recipe for disaster

Why do all smart finance YouTube channels always are vague about what you need to specifically do to have good savings and to have your money make money that you can use when you retire? They are never specific about where to invest, they just make general statements like a diverse portfolio without being specific where you invest in this diverse portfolio. In physics and mathematics and even in history there is always a specific way in which you basically learn something, a logic to it. When it comes to finance advise they always make huge general statements without a real guide to how to invest your money. The only time I’ve ever had a straight forward answer in investments was my fucking college teacher in college who taught security law who told us to invest in Coca Cola. Why the fuck did a security law teacher just tell us a specific place to invest that’s safe and has good yields and when you watch fucking finance bros they just make general broad statements with no real specific guides.

>>2190104
there's certain legal liability giving out 'investment advice' without being registered with the state. it goes hand in hand with fraud

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>>2188245
>Unlike the protests in Greece, the Serbian protests have no class character.
That would mean social classes in Serbia would have ceased to exist. Surely, there's a class "character" to it which shapes it.

>>2189442
>I don't really feel like getting into a screenshot war with Gaynazi that is some Plato's cave bullshit. There are loads of NATOids calling him a "Putin cockholster" go look it up.
Yes that's true and Gunther Fehlinger is also calling for Vojvodina to become an independent state or whatever, but the screenshots are more to illustrate a kind of Schrödinger's Vucic, he is a quantumly superimposed leader who may be considered both pro-Western and pro-Russian at the same time! Or depending on what angle you look at him.

>>2189568
>Thus "historical precedence" argument you're making doesn't stand up to scrutiny, because in previous cases there was actual evidence indicating Western involvement.
In Serbia specifically in the late 1990s that was Otpor (which means "Resistance") and which there is evidence for U.S. financial support to topple Milosevic. It's in the specifics when these things get interesting.

>>2189636
>Colour revolution movements often display signs in English because they're audience is the West not their own country. It's part of a tactic to manufacture consent.
The Hong Kong protests stand out in particular here. There were also protest leaders meeting with U.S. officials stationed out of the embassy and getting a lot of Western media attention. Meanwhile they were alienating huge numbers of people in the rest of China.

>Meanwhile Western media barely mentions these demonstrations at all, whereas with Ukraine, Venezuela, and Hong Kong they loudly amplified it. Yet another missing indicator.

I was driving home late last night and turned on the BBC World Service's morning broadcast. They did mention the Belgrade protest but it wasn't at the top of the news (Trump bombing Yemen was), and they interviewed a protester (a law student) who phrased it as "we just want to live in a functioning country," emphasizing the collapse of a canopy at a railway station a few months ago that killed 14 people. Like, government institutions either don't work, or don't do what they're supposed to do, and the protests will continue until they get to the bottom of it. Then the segment paraphrased Vucic's response, that he was listening to the protesters and understands there needs to be change, and then the segment quoted some opposition politician calling for a transitional government led by "experts," and that last part sounded very Eurocrat.

>>2189795
>From what I know
<students denounced any kind of expert/transitional government by the fake opposition
So that's interesting.

>>2189814
>The colour revolutions of the early/mid-2000s didn't have these, they did have the narrative of protesters having no particular organisation or affiliation other than just a general outrage over corruption and incompetence that conveniently opens the door to pretty much any kind of leadership coming to power, that always inconveniently means the pro-NATO, pro-USAID, anti-Communist and anti-Russian party comes to power.
I think that's an accurate description, although in some cases the protest organizers would get direct funding. Like one reason why people talk about USAID is because you can actually follow the money, look up the workshops that key protest organizers in various countries attended, and so forth. But I think these actual events were complex too, both a real disturbance from below due to structural problems with the politics and economy (politically-connected kleptocrats, crisis of legitimacy, etc.) since obviously you need that for a large-scale protest movement to be possible in the first place, and also a conflict between different models regarding which direction these countries will go (and who in these countries will win and who will lose depending on the outcome), which also plays out geopolitically and is when the outside money comes in.

To back to Hong Kong, even with all the outside support – and clear Western orientation of the protests – there were still structural problems in Hong Kong. I remember watching Martin Jacques on a Chinese show talking to a mainland audience who were basically infuriated at the protests and he said, very carefully, that yes you do have a right to be upset about this, but Hong Kong has also become very expensive and they have a lot of problems there, so don't let your anger get in the way of solving those underlying problems.

Another thing is the Hong Kong protesters were saying outright that they wanted to bring down the CCP. HONG KONG IS NOT CHINA. They were desperately seeking clout. Pepe the frog and "Xinnie the Pooh" were everywhere. There were people recording "last messages" to the New York Times in case they died (they did not). Also lots of hysterical hashtags indicating dependence on Western powers like #MagnitskyActNow

>>2189850
>So, because Vuvic is still saying "both Moscow and Washington", he is still a target for a colour revolution.
But Trump Jr. met with Vucic a few days ago, so maybe the U.S. supports Vucic? 🤡🌎

As a side note, one of the arguments that third-camp Trots (and I think Maoists in their own way) would make back during the 1960s/1970s is that the Cold War actually had a stabilizing logic, which made the U.S. and the USSR act as silent partners to divide up the world between them and squash alternatives, without destroying each other. So in 1968, there were upsurges in both Paris and Prague. Then the "campists" would take the Soviet side, and support the Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia, but Mao and the Chinese government opposed that. If you were a follower of Chairman Mao at the time, you'd have been blasting the "Soviet revisionist clique" as no better (and possibly even worse) than the Western imperialists.

>>2190051
Like… if the reform is passed and tuition is 50% cheaper don't you think that then more workingclass families could afford to educated their children and the class character of the students would change? This kneejerk reaction that every popular rebellion is a CIA psyop must be damaging for the psyche. It's because of this rebellion that a coming wave of privatization was slowed down. Do you not think that that is a good thing?

>>2190068
>Let’s call this what it is, a middle class led movement headed by liberal intelligentsia
IT'S NOT FFS
The students have no leaders, they are organized in plenums! Like what the fuck man why are you this blind in spite of facts to the contrary????

>>2190162
>>2190163
To a lot of people here the fact that students are involved at all is in and of itself proof that any and all discontent against the Serbian government is a Zionist CIA plot to kill Russia or something

>>2190167
That's not an unfounded belief since middle class PMCs/intelligentsia have played prominent roles in other colour revolutions. In Eastern Europe these types tend to be Western facing and culturally/politically liberal, connected to international finance capital as middle managers, etc. However things do seem different here given the specificity of the demands which boil down to a transparent investigation of the train station collapse, amnesty for protestors/prosecution of police abuse, and an increase in education funding. I think students are in general relatively susceptible to being deployed as part of a colour revolution, but that doesn't mean it's always the case and there isn't much to indicate that it's happening here.

>>2190163
It’s obvious that they have no leaders, I’m not denying that, this doesn’t take away from the fact that it was organized by the middle class
>>2190162
Obviously this is good and I think you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone denying that. The progressive demand was there since the beginning, and should be applauded even though it was repressed from the beginning.

>>2190118
This isn’t true because so many people tell you to invest in bitcoin and specific types of bitcoin without getting sued, I mean look at the Trump meme coin, no consequences for that. So it’s not illegal to give you specific companies to invest into to build up your wealth.

>>2190162
>This kneejerk reaction that every popular rebellion is a CIA psyop must be damaging for the psyche.
Not as damaging as comparing movements that win concessions that are temporary and small in the grand scheme of things, favourably with the desired movement of a revolutionary proletariat.

Yes, yes, I know
>Don't let good be the enemy of perfect
But there is a risk of disorganised, largely middle-class/intelligentsia movements being manipulated by the US to its own interests which usually resulted in societies that implement harsh decommunisation.

So in the worst case scenario, the movement is usurped and in the best case scenario it risks the greater damage to the collective psyche known as "reformism".

>>2190205
>Not as damaging as comparing movements that win concessions that are temporary and small in the grand scheme of things, favourably with the desired movement of a revolutionary proletariat.
and who exactly did that? where is this comparision going on? everyone is critical of the movement you dumbass

>>2190221
If something is good, then good compared to what? Everyone agrees that tuition fees are whack and action needs to be taken against it, then a movement that wins a 50% reduction is good compared to the perfect of abolishing tuition fees completely via a successful proletarian movement.

>be Serbian leftist of the leftypol variety (have been here on-and-off for several years)
>literally almost died that day when the canopy fell (I headed for the last train minutes before it fell)
>cautiously followed the student protests from a distance but never attended until yesterday, am an older student myself but do not participate in the student plenums and blockades, yesterday was at the protest because my dad wanted to go and I'm a closet commie who can't say no to my old man (who I financially depend on living with my parents TFW no gf yadda yadda standard channer backstory)
Ask me anything. Might post some of my thoughts unprompted, I'll see. I have chronic fatigue and it's not a simple topic to digest, unfortunately.

>>2190257
Do you think it's a colour revolution?

>>2190257
The reverse happened to me; since the canopy fell and the protests started I tried to involve myself as much as I could in the protests, even going on new years. Later I started noticing some stuff I didn’t particularly like or care for. Started listening to what some leftists groups thoughts are as wel at the same time. I wouldn’t say I’m against the protests, but I became a lot more cynical and less spirited of the things they wanted to achieve

i kinda want to read the thread because i want to know what's going on but i'm afraid it might be be 90% people debating whether the protestors should be executed because they're protesting a pro-russia government

>>2190282
Vucic’s government is very much pro eu, the question is whether or not the protesters are capable of making the needed changes in the country, or if they will just worsen it

So the student cultural center (SKC) retaken by students and under student self governance is holding a public tribune about the necessity of anticolonialism in the struggle against Rio Tinto. Mind you, this has become the largest gathering place for students and even has its own radio wave. So, is this still a USAID psyop? It's clearly radicalizing

>>2190266
In short, no. At the present moment, I have no reason to believe the students are financed and trained by external organizations.
Outside the lack of evidence, other indicators (in contrast to the students that helped topple Slobodan Milošević, which we know were financed and trained by external organizations):
1) No student leaders. The student organizations of every faculty are quick to distance themselves from any students that begin to make frequent media appearances and such.
2) The students distance themselves from the opposition parties, and distance themselves from "politics" (the students ate adamant that they are not seeking regime change or elections, but just for the demands to be met, for the law to be respected).
3) The faculties have had some infighting amongst each other in the past, suggesting they are not operating "as one". The chief incident I can cite is when at one protest there were some speakers that were chosen by one or some faculties but not others, then one faculty made a stink about it. The speakers were for example a political comedian/late-night talk show host, another talk-show host, a news presenter; none currently in politics, but some students didn't like the idea of public figures known for criticizing the ruling party being speakers at a protest, I guess.

>>2190297
So would you say it's fair to characterize it as a well organized and disciplined (but horizontally structured) movement aimed at addressing specific grievances?

>>2190303
I hope you're genuinely interested in what anon has to say rather than getting him to agree with you in this pissing match as the specific way you're framing your questions implies you are.

>>2190341
Hoes mad

>>2190345
Well yes, if confronted with someone who can give more insight to the movement, sabo cats instinct is to pounce on them with
>Would it be fair to say you agree with me?
Then yes, I imagine that hoe is particularly mad.

>>2190348
I don't see how it's "pouncing" on somebody to propose a viewpoint and ask if they agree. If he doesn't then he's free to say so and say why. The way I framed it was also based on what he said, e.g. that the students have no leaders but are disciplined enough to keep opposition parties and others trying to co-opt the movement away, keep to their specific grievances rather than become an expression of general, unfocused, discontent, etc.

OP here. Just to clarify I do not think the protests in themselves are an attempt at a color revolution, at best it is laying the groundwork for the ousting of the current party next election/making him resign in due time. I was more concerned with the yesterday's protests becoming another october 5th. This, however, was a huge overreaction in retrospect

>>2190359
Scepticism is healthy for all the reasons raised ITT, as is relief when it appears that the movement is unmolested by foreign influence nor pushing for regime change with a movement that is half-cocked as described by Serbian anons.

>>2190365
I'm from Serbia as well, and raised in Novi Sad, so the events in november shook me a bit. It's a shit situation, to say the least. I guess the cynical point of view is kind of expected from me, just because of the political situation in serbia right now. I really hope I'm wrong, but the protests are just vague enough for it to become vulnerable to outside influence, as well as really not doing enough to critique the current neolib government (expected for an "apolitical" movement). The rhetoric became so fucking stupid as well, with cringe labels created. I also think there is also a heavy middle class superiority complex embeded in it

>>2190303
Yes. Disciplined, check. Organized, check. Horizontal, check. Specific demands, check.
>>2190281
I've been critical from the start, basically. Not because I jumped to the conclusion that it's a color revolution, but because from the start I did not see it as a class struggle movement. That might change with the zbor idea and wider non-student participation. It remains an unfortunate fact that Serbian leftist orgs are tiny, practically non-existent. I would describe the political situation, put in a vulgar way, as similar to "MAGA communism". Serbian proles wish for socialist policies, but socialism and communism as words and symbols have a stigma (basically they don't want said socialist policies to be described as "socialist"), if that makes sense. It's the reason I'm in the closet about being a communist.
>>2190371
Pozdrav! Didn't read thread so didn't realize you're Serbian too.

>>2190399
Pozdrav! wish you all the best! I agree, it sucks that the left is non-existent in serbia, but I'd like to get involved at some point in the near future, we shall see though. Have to have a positive mental attitude

…wtf these sonic weapons bros… is the mass movement dead? should we embrace blanquism? teach sex workers to become cloak and dagger assassins?…

defeating microwave weapons part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo
part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC3O6B_K9Us

This ADS system is microwaving them while hurting their ears. This is what burgers accused Cubans of doing to "innocent" CIA agents in Miami lol.

>>2190412
yeah its fucking insane lol. I heard from somewhere that the serbian government acquired the weapon through Israel. Can't prove this statement though

>>2190412
It's not a microwave weapon. It's a infrasound weapon. LRAD. Nothing you can do about it, just resist the urge to vomit and pass out.

>>2189325
>Two of the classes mentioned there are lumpen
Faggots on this board keep acting like the word is'nt lumpenproletariat, your dis-ingenuity says more about you than anyone else. I look forward to grinding your bones under the wheels of my chair.
t. crippled commie

>>2189840
>national liberation isn't real
>colonialism and neo-colonialism isn't real

>>2190399
Does Yugoslavia not have any nostalgic appeal for Serbs the way the USSR does for Russians?

>>2190456
I've seen some graphs floating around the internet showing some insane percentage of yugonostalgics. Though I'm sure there is a good number of them, the opposite is more mainstream i would say; many say that the kind declaring Yugoslavia as a state was a mistake and that he should have created greater serbia, as well as blaming Tito for all kinds of hardships the serbs"had" through. Not to mention the chetniks

>>2190456
I am not familiar with Russian attitudes towards socialism/communism, but I would guess that one key difference is that Yugoslavia did not dissolve peacefully. The wars are still fresh in people's minds. Serbs experienced "national humiliation", and communists/communism was blamed for it, both by the Democrats (lead by Zoran Đinđić who as you know was assassinated in 2003 and became a martyr) and the Radicals (lead by Vojislav Šešelj who you may know ended up in the Hague on account of inciting ethnic cleansing against Croatians). The Socialists (lead by Ivica Dačić who was close with Milošević and you may not realize but they've been a part of almost every government), Milošević's party that somehow survived the public anger in the wake of his overthrow, never engaged in the blaming but they didn't do anything to dissuade it either (and nowadays are viewed as being "socialist" in name-only by left-leaning Serbs basically).

Yugo nostalgia has not been a relevant political factor since who knows when. I mean there are pensioners who might be nostalgic for Yugoslavia but still vote for Vučić's party, the Progressives (a splinter party that formed from members of the Radicals and the Democrats), whose government officials have acted sus with regards to chetniks and fascist figures (example off the top of my head, the former prime minister Ana Brnabić paid respects to Milan Stojadinović when she visited Argentina, a literal fucking fascist in the interwar period who later in his life shook hands with the ustaše leader Ante Pavelić who you might know as the man who orchestrated the genocide of Serbs) and quietly renamed communist and partizan streets over the years.

Wow, I got a headache just writing this.

>>2190412
no way to confirm they used such a weapon, there are a lot of conspiracy theories going around social media - people are reporting vastly different 1st hand experiences and various symptoms
everybody is a LRAD expert now it seems
Although I wouldn't be surprised they actually used such a device, nor does it really matter if they did or not
The protests were a failure in my eyes, and only when the working class join the struggle, the one our liberal elite call "krezubi" (crooked teeth) - then it will yield results…
Until then we will see Vucic for another 10000 years, pic related

>>2188344
>Class struggle of the 21st century is the Golden Billion against the periphery and rising multipolarity.

>>2190999
>The protests were a failure in my eyes
What do you mean? Failure relative to what? They never pretended to be revolutionary, they never pretended their goal was to (explictly) abolish the state, or to topple Vučić down. I feel a lot of you people continuously miss the forest for the trees. The main accomplishment is that the students self-organized for 4 months in soviet-like bodies, and that these soviet-like bodies were recognized as the largest parapolitical structure, and that these soviet-like bodies are being slowly taken by the general population. Everything else is bourgeois spectacle. And then you go to say stuff like
>when the working class join the struggle, the one our liberal elite call "krezubi" (crooked teeth) - then it will yield results…
which just shows how utterly stupid you are. "Krezubi" have already joined the students. Have you forgett the Dec 22nd Farmers and Students protest? Have you forgotten the Mar 8th Students and Workers Solidarity protest? Have you forgotten Kolubara, EPS, GSP? Are you following the cultural and political production happening by the students in blockade? They are all very 'leftist' and socialist in their content. There are no rightist or liberal voices among the students.

You are all dopamine addicts. You think that four months of blockading higher education is a nothingburger. You think that plenums on the state level are a nothingburger. You think that a bombed, looted and overworked working class like Serbia's can regain political and class consciousness in two weeks. Shame on you. The students have not played into the hands of the fake opposition, and are also not stopping the blockade.

>>2188344
ᴉuᴉlossnW

>>2191002
Failure in the sense that there were hundreds and thousands of people in attendance without any clear ideological goal in mind (except for the students) and were mindlessly eating pork and sarma on the streets and screaming PUMPAJ, hoping that Vucic would hand them the government willy-nilly.
Although I commend the students, they compromise a tiny minority in these protests - the majority is the cultural elite.
But even the students are not pervious to criticism, they lack political education - one of the key points is for the "institutions to do their jobs". They are already doing their job, we live under capitalism, there is no justice only interest-groups

And another thing: Just because plenums are Soviet-like bodies, does not mean they are ideologically Soviet-like. (pic related)

And as far as your claim that the working class has joined the protests, brother you are wrong. First, the farmers in question who joined, are far from the working class (they own their means of production). The other you mention, I agree and I stand in solidarity (you forgot to mention the pharmacy workers protest). But the vast majority still have no interest in these protest, nor will they if the "cultural elite" continues to evoke rasism, classism, and elitism towards them - ie. the "Caci-land" park being constantly mocked for the presence of Romani people, and generally poor people.
Nowhere in the points that the students want fulfilled is there even a mention of a non-capitalist Serbia, the closest was the free education point that capitulated at a 20% in budget for higher education.
The working class has nothing to gain from this movement - when the movement becomes anti-capitalist, and provides concrete points such as: "no to EU, stop privatisation, free education", then it will have a spine.

>>2191010
>The working class has nothing to gain from this movement - when the movement becomes anti-capitalist, and provides concrete points such as: "no to EU, stop privatisation, free education", then it will have a spine.
I agree and I think that the anticapitalist shift is there and present. Again, look at >>2190293. SKC also hanged down a banner calling for class struggle recently. More funding for education also shifts the class character of the student body long term. About the demands, the fact that the demands are impossible to fulfill, makes them good demands. The state cannot fulfill them without abolishing itself and at the same time, for the vast majority they are 'reasonable' demands. 'Građani' are just a facade. They're the failed petty-bourgeois trying to subvert a (relatively) massive student movement. It's a classical tactic of the bourgeoisie, since without a massive political body to do the dirty work they cannot obtain state power. But they have no vanguard position. Even the (blind) followers of the petty-bourgeoisie are following them because of the intertia created by the students. And the fake opposition has been totally discredited recently, so that the students are still recieveing support means that the majority never actually stood behind, say, PSG, ZLF or any other imperialist shill.

>>2191010
> Just because plenums are Soviet-like bodies, does not mean they are ideologically Soviet-like.
Yes I agree. My point was more that the soviet body (which had seemed to have been discredited by history) has actually reached 'state' levels of organization. It's more saying, either soviets or bourgeois barbarism.

re: građaneri eugenism and fascism.
all true. But see my point about them not actually having any vanguard position to actually push those ideas forward. They're the fascistic intelligencia in emergance and will wither away without a platform.

>>2191002
>uses farmers as proof of class solidarity
yeah, wealthier farmers attend and bring their tractors, and the others can fuck off with their uneducated lives. Face it, the liberal intelligentsia hates the poor, thats why there are "Ćaci" and the rest are normal and well meaning students. That's why there are the "Sendvičar" and the smart, well educated worker.

they dont want to help the peasants and the proleteriat who are ready to "sell themselves" for max. 20 euros. Quite the contrary, they are to be made an example of for the whole of serbia to see how pathetic they are. As i said many replies ago, what do these proletarians get from supporting these protests? At least with the SnS they maybe get a job and a little money for their cooperation.

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>>2191039
an example of the class solidarity of the protesters, making fun of the roma attendees. Also, I'll be damned to join a movement whose main slogans are "PUMPAJ" and use the word "Ćaci" unironically

There are reports that people suffering from the effects of the "LRAD" (hearing damage) were denied medical care, and that cops came by to write down their names. It's a meme at this point that the state is comedically inept and keeps shooting itself in the foot. One reason why I don't think the protests will die down, they just keep making provocations.
There are also reports that clinics were flooded with people whose pacemakers stopped working, lending further credibility to the theory that the device that was used being a sound weapon of some sort.

With regards to the intelligentsia, "middle class", whatever you want to call them, it's worth noting for non-Serbian anons that they were the ones sounding alarm in regards to the mining corporation Rio Tinto's lithium exploitation plans, with a specifically anti-colonial rhetoric, so it's not so simple to say that they are useless. I personally would not subscribe to the MLM notion of "labor aristocracy" blindly in our country's context. There is definitely a widespread feeling among people of virtually almost all the socioeconomic stratums that our country is facing brazen "colonial" exploitation. I was never really sure if our country counts as "first world" or "third world", but regardless that is the situation.

>>2191251
>There is definitely a widespread feeling among people of virtually almost all the socioeconomic stratums that our country is facing brazen "colonial" exploitation.
Under those conditions it's not uncommon for the interests of the workers, peasantry/yeomanry, petty bourgeoisie, and national bourgeoisie to align, although this can only continue to a point. If this movement is indeed heading in an anti-imperialist direction then the prominence of intelligentsia and middle strata won't be as much of an issue, though of course these people can't be expected to construct socialism.

>>2191251
By far the most critical of the protests, on the side of the left, are the RNP-F. Assuming that you're following the current tides in the serbian left, what do you think of their critiques?

>>2191263
im not the anon youre responding to but RNPF has been putting out banger after banger
their text about the sound gun they put out today is great, you should read it

>>2191273
yeah i have to admit that i enjoy reading what they put out. They seem like the most honest leftist organization in serbia right now

>>2191253
>though of course these people can't be expected to construct socialism
100%
>>2191263
They basically hold the "labor aristocracy" stance, which as I implied, I am sceptical of in our country's context. They also underestimate the influence of the intelligentsia via social media. It's true that generally Serbian proles aren't active on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, etc. and this may lead someone to erroneously conclude the intelligentsia lives in an informational bubble completely separate from proles, but what they forget is that Serbian proles are active in Viber, Telegram, Facebook, Whatsapp groups, which have members posting content "downstream" from Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, making the proles in these groups aware of the discourse going on in the intelligentsia circles and by nature of not being as "terminally online" as the intelligentsia, said discourse takes over political consciousness, as more content to be consumed is produced by the intelligentsia. If I wanted to be dramatic I would even say it's a fatal mistake to overlook this. Being a small country, with the proliferation of the internet and smartphones, this development isn't exactly surprising.

>>2190424
>Nothing you can do about it
blasting music loud enough to counter it? use the same algorithm of noise cancelling headphones but on a big sound system?
its still exposing valuable gear to the pigs retaliation though.

>>2190412
Easy to counter. Just use earplugs. Shields can even reflect it back.

>>2191594
ok individually they're very easy to counter but collectively you have to have each person get and remember to bring earplugs; it's one of those collective action problems

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>Greece was mentioned
tfw Greeks have militant anarchists while all we have in Serbia are mafia-wannabe neochetnik soccer hooligans (yes, even the ultras of the club literally called Partizan are neochetniks, it's depressing to think about)

>>2191651
The culture in serbia has deteriorated to the point of parody. Oh well, at least the alternative scene is doing well

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Skimming thread further
>>2188483
>Is this true? This is hilarious. On the one side, Vucic's people are like "NATO is trying to overthrow us" and then they go to NATO and say "Russia is trying to overthrow us."
Yes. It's a shitshow, to the point you don't know who they're trying to fool anymore. Watching the news here is like watching the trashiest Reality TV. Sort of similar to America. Bread and circuses turned up to 11. I mean literally, the poor are "bribed" with food gifts and the genius of almost-billionaire media mogul Željko Mitrović TV spectacles, he's kind of like our version of Elon Musk but somehow more unhinged if that's possible.
None of the images I'm posting are memes/edits.

>>2191251
The idea of “Labor aristocracy” isn’t from MLM but from Marx and Engels. And yes a country like Serbia is still a periphery country which isn’t really enjoying the spoils of Western imperialism.

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>>2191699
>None of the images I'm posting are memes/edits.
Holy fugg

>>2191707
>The idea of “Labor aristocracy” isn’t from MLM but from Marx and Engels
I see, looking it up it appears you are correct, Engels referenced it in letters to Marx. My introduction to it came from MLM writings, my apologies.

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>>2191713
We have an expression in Serbian. "Smejem se od muke."
I'm laughing from the misery/pain.

>>2191734
Here we say "I had to laugh to keep from crying."

>>2191251
These "intellectual" faggots only mobilize people when they are able to hurt the government of Serbia and its associated national capitalists. If the libshit CIA media can mobilize up to 800 000 (allegedly) people to march in Belgrade, why can't they ever get a hundred or thousand workers to go on strikes for better pay or for other forms of collective bargaining and maaaybe build an actual workers party? It's because pure trade unionism and in general the non-party-affiliated working class is necessarily reformist, just as Lenin has theorised. Liberasts know this and that's why they don't actually give a fuck about the working class because championing their interests could inadvertently strengthen Vucic and Vucic is the ultimate evil that needs to be overthrown at all costs, not capitalism. Obviously the same would apply to a working class party, but that doesn't exist, so the only vanguard that could take over is the NGO network. Sabotaging a mining project fits perfectly into this, the working class would gain nothing beyond losing out on job opportunities (whatever their quality may be). The same applies to the current situation. Why make a revolution after a one-time accident? They happen all the time, even in socialist countries. Do you think the USSR deserved to be overthrown because of Chernobyl?

>>2193480
Non-socialists don't build socialism. This is not news to anyone.
>the working class would gain nothing beyond losing out on job opportunities
As opposed to dying from pollution? As opposed to privatizing national resources and giving them away for pennies to global corporations?
>Why make a revolution after a one-time accident?
What revolution? Who is "why"?

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Today it has been officially confirmed that Serbian police possess LRADs. Police Minister Ivica Dačić, after denying that the police possess LRADs, has today come out and confirmed that the police do in fact possess LRADs.

Unofficially, based on "leaked" photos, it has been confirmed that LRADs were present on the day of the protest. However, I cannot yet find if an LRAD was sighted where the incident took place.

>>2193480
agree on all the points, however as >>2193511 pointed out the mining project in Jadar would absolutely be a disaster for the people. Bare in mind that a lot of cities and towns in serbia dont have clean and safe water. Enviromental problems can and should be used in the context of class struggle
>>2193541
the fact that Dačić basically fucked over Vucic, since he basically said that a person who uses LRADs shouldnt be president.

>>2190433
They aren't

>>2193549
>Bare in mind that a lot of cities and towns in serbia dont have clean and safe water.
Not only that, but we often somehow end up topping global air pollution lists. Life-expectancy too is below-average for Europe. Garbage food, food that wouldn't pass EU standards, is regularly imported and consumed, food manufacturers literally send the worst quality food here, even Croatian food manufacturers send food products of worse quality than the ones sold in Croatia. And anecdotally, I'm a smoker - God-knows how bad the tobacco we smoke is, and we're a nation of smokers, we top the list in Europe for that.

>>2193564
One thing I'll never forgive is the fact that in at least 2 towns in Vojvodina I can think of Lidl destroyed the Bus stations just to build their shitty stores. Bomb Lidl to the fucking ground

>>2193570
People thought Lidl would bring more affordable food and then they ended up gradually price-matching the other supermarket chains lol

>>2193575
I remember how the first days of Lidl opening up in NS looked like. Romas fighting for food etc. In retrospect, it's not as funny as people (such as myself) made it out to be.

>>2193549
I don't know exactly how it is in Serbia, but I'm pretty sure it's just like here that factories give much better pay than a public sector job or a small business. So it would be more like a devil's bargain (if they don't get replaced with filipinos that is). If that is true, than the correct position would be to demand that the government should properly enforce environmental regulations and make collective bargaining mandatory against the company. And while we're at it, maybe make the state itself build it and take the revenue. But the liberals won't do that, no. As said earlier, these options would probably just strengthen Vucic. I understand what you are saying, but liberals only opposed that mining project or really anything else at all because it would weaken Vucic which is the only thing they want. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't agree with them on anything, but the problem is that the only reason this is a talked-about issue at all is because they have the power to make it one and we don't. Actual workers won't gain anything from it and neither will we.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything. Here in Hungary there were similar protests against incoming EV battery manufacturers led by Soros NGOs and Soros media because muh pollution. The part of their narrative about using too much water is actually true and very concerning, but at the same time our government is single handedly saving European EV manufacturing by inviting Chinese investment and taking the blame for it. Needless to say this is very much in our (as in everyone in the country) interest because our whole economy depends on German car manufacturers and all of the economic woes Orbán the person is being blamed for is because of the state of the German automobile industry.

An another insane NGO project was when the teachers' unions decided to go on strike. They held a preliminary warning strike that they planned to make half a day long, but even that wasn't really successful because the government forced published a decree that forced them to still teach when they were supposed to be striking because the requirements for minimum service ridiculously high. Now what did the trade unions do? a.) go on a wildcat strike b.) cry in the media They chose b.) A few months pass. The courts declare the decree to be unconstitutional and destroy it. What do the unions do? a.) go on strike now that they are legally able to b.) nothing But! very important an insufferable theatre actor who gets behind every NGO cause makes another one of his slam poetry music videos (I want to vomit) about how teachers and students are not taking this anymore!!!! The video also features almost every notable Hungarian actor for some reason. Finally, we are saved. Soros-affiliated "student fronts" get activated and they start holding protests together with their teachers about how they are not taking it anymore. So brave! Do they go on strike? Well, the NGOs start telling teachers to refuse to go in to work and engage in "civil disobedience". School by school. So there is zero pressure on the government and most of them get fired. I did the same thing once when I overslept and woke up to my shift manager calling me on the phone and angrily asking why I'm not at the job site. The protests keep happening. Their numbers start dwindling. All of them are students at this point because the teachers are fed up with this shit or are already fired. In the end they provoke the police into tear gassing them by constantly holding protests near the prime minister's office and messing with metal barriers there that were placed down because of a real construction project. The only thing the trade unions are able to come up with is that they should press charges against the government at the EU court. All throughout this story the liberals make appeals to how "people with diplomas should make more money" (evidencing that they hate manual workers).

>>2193820
>but liberals only opposed that mining project
Iirc the small Serbian communist movement opposed it too.

>>2193820
There is no "strengthening" Vučić when Vučić is a part of a criminal network that exploits neoliberalism for personal profit. You're coming at this from some angle that Vučić could be convinced to make a pro-labor deal or something, when that is literally against his personal interests. We're also talking about a global corporation that will fight tooth and nail to get the best deal they can get (they've already threatened to sue the country). And, putting my tin foil hat on, I wouldn't be surprised if the EU, which has its own corrupt leadership, is making threats behind closed doors. Absolutely NONE of the mentioned entities (Rio Tinto, Vučić, the EU) have any interest in a pro-labor arrangement.

Oh, did I mention Vučić is constitutionally not even supposed to be deciding the fate of the country (the post of the president is supposed to be symbolic). Lmao

>>2193858
If he can't be forced to make a deal or do anything else, then why bother at all with opposing him? The current protestors are trying to force him to abdicate entirely. That puts SnS in much more danger than the failure of a mining project, and yet they are doing it. Again, the reason why liberals oppose him is because they specifically want that criminal network gone and replace it with full control by multinationals or maybe their own criminal network down the line. The problem with agreeing with liberals on anything, even if they are right is that their narrative is specifically constructed to always put the blame on Vucic and never capitalism. It's designed to kill any working class organisation before it surfaces.

>>2193820
I know embarrassingly little about Hungarian politics even though i'm part hungarian. I noticed that a lot of people are discontent with the VMSZ, which is unsurprising since they are allied with the SnS.

Sup Serbros, one of the 300 million here. Can anyone of you give me a quick run down of the protests' goals, methods and class character?

I'm bumping this thread because I've listened to a podcast this morning by Le Monde about the March 15th protests, it was quite informative and provide a good picture of the situation, you can listen to it here if you understand French: https://podcasts.lemonde.fr/lheure-du-monde/202503260300-serbie-les-raisons-dune-mobilisation-sans-precedent but I will provide a summary of it here.
———

So, let's start from the beginning, because virtually no one in this thread mentioned the reason why the protests started in the first place.

On November 1, 2024, the canopy of the Novi Sad train station (pic related) collapsed onto the pavement, killing 16 people.
For context, Novi Sad is the second largest city of Serbia, with a big student population.
Nobody is sure why it happened, all that is known according to the podcast is that a subcontractor cut cables that were sustaining the canopy in place before it happened, but it's unclear why they did it.

Protests started as soon as the next day and escalated quickly. A few days later according to b92.net, Vučić said "On November 3, a coup d'état was attempted in Serbia, whoever betrayed it will have to answer".

For students, the collapse of the canopy admittedly symbolizes the corruption of the government.
Invitations to tender for public works, in particular, are managed with complete opacity. That's why it's so hard to know precisely who is responsible for the collapse and why the main demand of the students is the publication of the documents related to the renovation of the Novi Sad canopy.

You can read all the student demands here: >>2189795
You will notice they don't ask for the resignation of Vučić. Indeed, it would be foolish if they did, because it would give weapons to the government to discredit the protesters among the public opinion. What would be the best for the students, according to the podcast, is if Vučić would still remains de jure the president of Serbia, but would have de facto very little power through parliamentary mechanisms.

The students were smart and decided to connect with older people and workers, in order to show them that they aren't insane insurrectionists seeking to burn down everything, but are simply concerned citizens about the current state of Serbia.
At this point, not only students are part of the protestors, but also workers, retired people, farmers, and even some lawyers who are creating problems for the judicial system as a form of protest (regarding the prosecution of students who got caught I imagine).
Both pro-Russian nationalists and pro-EU liberals are part of the movement, and many people in between or outside of these camps, like communists of course.

March 15 was supposed to be the apotheosis of the movement, and they were approximately 300,000 protestors, which is huge in a country of 6.5 million inhabitants.

This thread documents what happened that day, including the use of a sonic weapon at 7 P.M. while protestors were supposed to have 15 minutes of silence between the presidential palace and the parliament, as a message and also to make counting the protesters easier.
At first, the government denied having access to a LRAD, then admitted they had one but that it wasn't deployed in Belgrade at the time, then said it deployed in Belgrade but wasn't used.
They also said the protests are part of a CIA plot for a color revolution, but are embarassed by this now that Trump is dismantling the US federal state, so they now it was a plot of USAID when the Democrats were in power.

Vučić at this point only wish the movement would rot and degenerate into senseless violence, so his government could regain the high ground and shut down the protests for good.

———
I don't know what happened since then, so if any Serbian anons have any news on the current situation, or can correct some eventual mistakes I've made in my post, I would be interested.
Some new protests are mentioned in the latest News Anon thread (TYBNA): >>2198641

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Post-scriptum for >>2200032:

Now, I must say, looking at this thread, I'm a bit disappointed by the reaction of /leftypol/ — but not terribly surprised.

As soon as the thread started, no one sought to understand the causes of the protest movement.
If you search for "canopy" (or "roof") in the thread, there was only one mention of it before my post, and it was among the demands of the students, it didn't even mention Novi Sad.

Everyone instead immediately started talking about 4D geopolitics, as if we were talking about some epic Hearts of Iron IV game or something.

Vučić and the Serbian government, like Orbán in Hungary, are playing a delicate balance between appeasing the EU and maintaining good relationships with Russia.
Vučić was elected on the promise that he would convince Serbian nationalists to join the EU, as he was Minister of Information from 1998 to 2000, under Milošević. Since then, Vučić makes absolutely no effort to join the EU — and personally, I can't blame him because I'm really not sure if joining the EU would be a good thing for Serbia, probably not, same thing for Croatia who recently joined the Eurozone, though Croatia has a thriving tourism industry.

But one important thing to consider, when talking about Serbia, or Bosnia while I'm at it, is that the average wage is very low compared to the local cost of living.
For an European country, the purchasing power of Serbians is extremely low. If you look at www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/, you will see that a 1 bedroom apartment in the center of Belgrade is 745€, 484€ outside of the center, and 940€ is the average wage. The average wage, not the minimum wage.
By comparison, in Paris, even if costs and rents are higher, the average wage is 3000€, even if many people live with much less than this.
On top of that, the cost of groceries in Belgrade isn't that low compared to Western Europe.

I find it ironic that, on this communist imageboard, when a protest happen in the periphery, it has to be a color revolution, and when a protest happen in the imperial core, it has to be ineffectual radlibs.

Do you truly believe the proletariat can forge their own destiny and fight against capitalists in order to instantiate a dictatorship of the proletariat, or are you hopeless romantics who only care about Ostalgia?
Because when I see this thread, I feel like too many of you are hopeless romantics, and think workers are stupid pawns with no agency.

———
For the anecdote, I was in Georgia when the pro-EU protests happened. I saw EU flags everywhere in Tbilisi, literally painted on every other street corner. I even saw a huge NATO flag on Liberty Square.
I talked with students in front of the parliament by chance, and they were very disappointed when I honestly told them I don't like the EU and Brussels, and explained why. It wasn't funny, to more or less crush their dreams, at all.

I don't always agree with Sabocat, but they are completely right in this post: >>2189404
Georgia is notorious for having a ton of NGOs operating in their country, and Georgians are stuck between paid agents who truly want a color revolution like in 2014 Ukraine, and corrupt pro-Russian politicians and national capitalists who don't give a single fuck about making their own country better.
It's fucking grim there, and the reasons why a lot of Georgians want to join the EU is to GFTO of their country and find work in Germany or anywhere else except Georgia (which is sad because it's a beautiful country).

From the little I know, the protests in Serbia seem quite different to me: a legit citizen movement against corruption.
Apparently, students don't get any money for the material they need to organize, because if they did, they would have many vehicles with huge loudspeakers for example, but from what I've heard, they don't, their means are small compared to the size of the protests.

Some of you might be used to see corruption and decaying infrastructure in your own country, and people not doing anything about it, but it's not the case everywhere around the world.

>>2200070
>Everyone instead immediately started talking about 4D geopolitics
It seems in their doomerism about revolution and inability to communicate like a normal person marxism, "radicals" have retreated to geopolitical hooliganism in telegram, reddit and here. The truth is that nobody cares about geopolitics. Rightfully so. It's a distraction form domestic issues and internationalism.

>>2200032
>I don't know what happened since then, so if any Serbian anons have any news on the current situation
Everything you said is more or less trve but I'll add the following things for more context.

(i) The EU has decided on a number of strategic projects recently. One of them a lithium mine in Jadar (for the electric car industry). Together with a militarizing EU means that Serbia is ripe for imperialist aggression, and Vučić concurs. He has no issue with Brussel's directives, even was in a meeting a few days ago with them. But with continuing unrest it might just stall it long enough. There is a consistent anti-Rio Tinto sentiment and prominent Marxists from Serbia (Aleksandar Matković e.g.) have been warning about this. These kinds of talks are popular with the students.

(ii) A few weeks before March 15th a proregime group of pretend-students, petty criminals, small bosses, bureaucrats from SNS municipalities etc. less than 200 strong occupied the Pioneer Park across the Presidental Palace. Their slogan is "Students which want to learn." They are the last of what remains of the SNS machine willing to fight for the party, a tragic kind of lumpen black hundreds. Anyway, state media hyped up this story about possible violence occurring on the 15th (as you point out so Vučić has a reason to deploy state violence and calm the protest down). It didn't help that there were leaked talks between members of PSG (EU-neolibs) about planning a civil war on the 15th with some psyop attack on the state TV (RTS).
But thankfully, once the students in blockade were at the Pioneer Park, and someone threw a bottle from the Park at the them, and state media quickly launched story after story about civil war. Students in blockade quickly called the protest off and nothing happened. There are rumors that the Pioneer Park blackhundreds also had weapons on them. Pics are floating around about SNS-men placing bags with stone on the roooftops of surrounding buildings as artillery to throw on the students in blockades. Crazy stuff was going on.

(iii) There has been a massive wave of zbors popping up. People all over Serbia are organizing in zbors. They are still not revolutionary, but are able to formulate (a) support for the students in blockade and (b) demanding resignation of SNS bureaucrats. There are have also been incidents of (tw for americans) 'eggings' of those bureaucrats and their businesses or homes. It's funny stuff. But also developing into civil war in which the EU will try to intervene in just for that juciy lithium. Oh and people from the Mačva region (where the mine is supposed to be) were the first to organize in zbors and some even physically chased out representatives of Rio Tinto and SNS from municipal buildings.

reposting because wall of text

>>2200070
>As soon as the thread started, no one sought to understand the causes of the protest movement.
I literally asked for a quick rundown right before you posted, uygha. Plus this isn't the first thread about this movement as well.
>I find it ironic that, on this communist imageboard, when a protest happen in the periphery, it has to be a color revolution, and when a protest happen in the imperial core, it has to be ineffectual radlibs.
How about instead of accusing us of hating the real movement, you inform us on the actual movement and shit. 75% of your post are tangents.

>>2200070
As it was pointed out many times (mostly by me) on this thread, the protestors have done a good job of alienating themselves from the peasants and the proletariat, so forgive me for being a little bit cynical. Also, I dont think that fighting generally against "corruption" is a good thing. What do they mean by corruption? I haven't seen (except for 2 days ago) anyone protest the massive arms exports we give to Ukraine and Israel, for example. Nobody likes Vucic, but from what I have seen, the alternatives aren't really that different

>I can't blame him because I'm really not sure if joining the EU would be a good thing for Serbia, probably not, same thing for Croatia who recently joined the Eurozone, though Croatia has a thriving tourism industry.

I find this response extremely telling, even though you said yourself you dont like the EU. Vucic is definitely more pro EU, and the answer to whether or not the EU is good should obviously be that it is not good.

>>2200295
>the protestors have done a good job of alienating themselves from the peasants and the proletariat
but that's empirically wrong and I think you're really talking about something you have not researched. like you say "they're against corruption" when that's not what they're "against" (see their demands here >>2189795 and read through the archives). besides there have been zbors popping up everywhere, even among striking workers. but these things take time to develop after 30 years of neoliberal loot, rape and pillage. dopamine whores, all of you.

>I haven't seen (except for 2 days ago)

So you've seen and now hopefully you're realizing that historical movements take a while to develop. If you'd been paying more attention you'd see that in the last month there has been much antiimperialism being brought into the student rebellion in the form of struggle against Rio Tinto and EU imperialism.

>Nobody likes Vucic, but from what I have seen, the alternatives aren't really that different

See >>2200032
<You will notice they don't ask for the resignation of Vučić. Indeed, it would be foolish if they did, because it would give weapons to the government to discredit the protesters among the public opinion. What would be the best for the students, according to the podcast, is if Vučić would still remains de jure the president of Serbia, but would have de facto very little power through parliamentary mechanisms.

Regarding the EU and anyone here interested. Today in an interview for a Swiss television Vučić was asked about lithium in Mačva. He said, we'll, the people are against it, but we (him and his cronies) made a deal with Germany and the deal will be upheld". Mind you, this comes in tandem with the EU setting a lithium mine as one of their strategic goals (for the german electric car industry).

>>2200075
>The truth is that nobody cares about geopolitics. Rightfully so. It's a distraction form domestic issues and internationalism.
yes thank you, finally. geopolitics can inform some broader theory but really on the local level a bourgeois is still bourgeois and a proletarian is still proletarian and class struggle is the motor of history not bourgeois dick measuring contests

>>2200310
You're not seeing the greater picture. Of course they are not asking for the resignation of the president, still, the protests did strengthen the opposition.
The general strikes were a failure. There is no incentive for the workers to support it. The farmers you speak of coming with their tractors aren't the poor peasants and workers you'd like them to be, make of that what you will.
Either way the rhetoric used and pushed on the protests are retarded and should be critiqued. The same people they accuse of being inhuman illiterates are the only ones capable of inflicting any real damage on the system, whether the protesters like it or not.
The voice of the protests have become clear, if not by their demands then by their actions and rhetoric. The people hate Vucic, and the fact of the matter is that many people would be content with a new Vucic taking power, if it meant that the current ruling party would be replaced

>>2191040
>>2191039
The people in the Pioneer's Park were literally petty criminals, bureaucrats from SNS municipalities, and hooligans. These are not your "working classes" you retarded Hoxhaist. These are the lumpen.

>>2200320
I personally know one of the people who went to the park and i can attest to him being a criminal small town politician. Fuck them and the rest of them. Still doesnt change the overall attitude towards the Sendvičars the protesters have. If you are saying all of them are crimilans and politicians, then you are pretty retarded and dont appreciate the material conditions which the proletariat faces in Serbia

>>2200318
> still, the protests did strengthen the opposition
They absolutely did not you buffoon. The opposition is even more discredited after the PSG coup d'etat fiasco. Stav and SviĆe, the only two political structures which could've swayed the direction of the rebellion towards the other petty-bourgeoisie have been discredited by all student plenums.

And again, you are (at this point I have every inclination to say on purpose) conflating the (i) student rebellion and (ii) the građaneri white-strikes and other perfomative politics. (ii) tails (i), because, as simple observation shows, whenever the civil opposition to Vučić protested, they barely counted 30-40.000 people. Students can drag out almost 300.000 people on the street. This is clearly not a civil rebellion lead by the other petty-bourgeoisie. This is a student rebellion that is offering Serbia a new way of social organization that is not bourgeois pairlamentary democracy.

>>2200325
>Still doesnt change the overall attitude towards the Sendvičars the protesters have.
You're really clutching at pearls here. Okay, do the same deduction in reverse you do when you make apologia for those serving the system even as it is rotting to the core. You had almost a decade of rage building up against all SNS and now you're mad that they have not articuled their frustration in a language that's to your standard? Who the fuck do you think you are? You have the possibility to go the zbor in your municipality and now talk freely about this problem. Be the change you want to see.

>>2200327
Bullshit. Even with all the embarrassing shit the opposition has pulled in the past 5 months, they still indirectly benefits from the apolitical protests. If you can't see that, I dont know what to tell you.
>now you're mad that they have not articuled their frustration in a language that's to your standard?
No, we should be supporting this middle class movement uncritically and support everything they are doing. If you think talking about these fundamental problems in the zbors will change anything, youre wrong

>>2200325
Like, put in perspective the miniscule number of people you're defending. There are officially 800.000 SNS members. An SNS rally these days barely manages 20.000 people. You're literally defending the remaining 2.5% of the members of SNS, which is 0.3% of the entire population. Get a grip.

>>2200342
>they still indirectly benefits from the apolitical protests
Okay, prove it. Show me the evidence. You should be able to produce some proof of this. Even the idea of Expert Government or the Government of People's Trust has been completely discredited by the sudent movement. And thus, because the civil opposition tails the student movement, they can't agitate for it. You're screaming at clouds. Again, see >>2200032
<You will notice they don't ask for the resignation of Vučić. Indeed, it would be foolish if they did, because it would give weapons to the government to discredit the protesters among the public opinion. What would be the best for the students, according to the podcast, is if Vučić would still remains de jure the president of Serbia, but would have de facto very little power through parliamentary mechanisms.

>>2200344
I'm not defending them as much as I am realistic. If you think that those 800 000 voters (disregarding those who are voting from their graves) will magically disappear just because of these protests you are mistaken. The fact that the SnS rallies are not successful don't change the fact that they will still retain a good number of their voters. Either way, the protests will never address the problems which face Serbia today in any concrete way. The protests didnt manage to mobilize the workers in any meaningful way, neither will they manage to.

>>2200351
>the protests will never address the problems which face Serbia today in any concrete way. The protests didnt manage to mobilize the workers in any meaningful way, neither will they manage to.
THEY NEVER WANTED TO, DIPSHIT. STOP PROJECTING YOUR ORGANIZATIONAL INCOMPETENCIES ON OTHER PEOPLE. YOU GO AND AGITATE AMONG THE WORKERS. Why do you expect that the lost children of neoliberalism, who knew nothing but neoliberalism, European and other 'civil' values, could and would transform their ideologically confused movement to a ripe proletarian communist mass movement.

>>2200356
>could and would transform their ideologically confused movement to a ripe proletarian communist mass movement
in four months after starting to organize*. Just fucking stop, take the bourgeois spectacle glasses off and think what the actual accomplishment of the movement are >>2191002
<The main accomplishment is that the students self-organized for 4 months in soviet-like bodies, and that these soviet-like bodies were recognized as the largest parapolitical structure, and that these soviet-like bodies are being slowly taken by the general population.

>>2200356
Thats the point im trying to make. Theprotests are the child of neoliberalism in one way or the other. I never expected them to make systematic critiques, I'm not an idealist. But why do you then expect communists to support it when it wont accomplish anything. I'm not even talking about the student blockades, in fact I applaud some of the universities which are more politically conscious.

>>2200366
>I never expected them to make systematic critiques, I'm not an idealist.
No one cares about you and your opinions.
>But why do you then expect communists to support it when it wont accomplish anything.
No one is telling you to support anything abstractly, especially not communists. We are talking about a student rebellion. This is history developing. It's rare you get something this close home to observe. It has historic significance. We observe and make hypothesis about capitalist society and even if ideologically confused, organizationally there is something to learn from the student rebellion.

>>2200366
>Thats the point im trying to make.
And not really. You seem angry that the mass movement is not following you, the vanguard in its self-understanding and self-development. But maybe I'm just talking out of my ass at this point. Idk having the flag is lowkey idpol

>>2200372
The whole reason why this thread was started, dipshit. Im aware of the shitty state the left is in this country, and I am not expecting some radical change in that in the near future. At the same time it is important, as you said to observe what is happening. I dont see this as an either/or situation where i have to support one side or the other. While i have a general disregard for the mass protests happening right now, I can see the historical significance and possible consequences of the blockades and Zbors. Regarding the zbors, i do believe they are a step in the right direction. This is why I cant discredit the protests in their entirety, exactly for the reasons you made. Im not a dogmatist and i am willing to change my positions if i think they become obsolete

>>2200381
The OP started out with a j'accuse towards the students in blockade >>2188245
<The implications are obvious; a color revolution is in the works.
And this whole thread was a handful of people struggling against the tide (which you are representative of, see for example your prejudices against the protesteros, based completly on some hysteria you're currently experiencing when it comes to this student rebellion, which it never pretended not to be anything but a student rebellion (contrary to your expectation that this will usher some new proletarian movement, and, mind you, you continuously conflate with the minority of the minority of the lumpen the bourgeois spectacle serves to you as the 'real' people tired of these students blockaders.
>>2200295
<As it was pointed out many times (mostly by me) on this thread, the protestors have done a good job of alienating themselves from the peasants and the proletariat
>>2200318
<the protests did strengthen the opposition
<The same people they accuse of being inhuman illiterates are the only ones capable of inflicting any real damage on the system, whether the protesters like it or not.
Worse yet, you admit I'm right
>>2200325
<I personally know one of the people who went to the park and i can attest to him being a criminal small town politician.
and continue peddling this confused anti-blockade sentiment because you're seeing ghosts. With no evidence, you claim
>>2200342
<Even with all the embarrassing shit the opposition has pulled in the past 5 months, they still indirectly benefits from the apolitical protests
Completely changing to topic to some fictious election scenario NO ONE talked about and most everyone 'in the know' realizes means fuck all considering that pairalamentary democracy is being discredited more and more each day in Serbia. GO AND SEE! THERE ARE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS OF ZBORS AND THEIR MINUTAE POSTED ONLINE. YOU CAN SEE FIRST HAND WHAT IT IS BEING TALKED ABOUT. The zbor in Palilula-Centar passed the motion that speakers, moderators and stenographers cannot be from NGOs or political parties. But you'll ignore this fact to continue hating on the students because you are no different from a left-com, you'd rather just bitch and moan history is not to your liking rather than take the bull by the horns and shamelessy agitate for socialism. Hey fuckface, if you're so convinced your political line is the only correct one, go out there and test it with the masses.

After being completly refuted on every point you sing a completly different tune, spineless cunt. See >>2200381

>>2200416
you said nothing new here and this is going in circles at this point. I haven't changed my stances at all neither when talking to you or before that. The protests are a shitshow and will accomplish nothing because of the overwhelming majority of shitlibs and serb "nationalists". Not every mass movement is progressive in nature, and no matter how much anyone tries to agitate the problem still stands. It is also obvious that the student led blockades arent a monolit either and that the political leanings differ from univerist to university. This doesnt change the fact that the zbors are a good thing and you will see that i never fucking denied that.
Fuck off with your moralizing bullshit and realize that critique is in dire need.
>But you'll ignore this fact to continue hating on the students because you are no different from a left-com
Yeah im a leftcom for criticizing the retarded rhetoric made during the protests. Fucking retard, you spout takes such as the need to observe and the need to learn from the student rebellion, but when actual critique is made towards their attitudes to the workers in this country, which started long before that whole shitshow in the park, you call me a fucking leftpol for not going along with it 100% like a good liberal dog.
>you'd rather just bitch and moan history is not to your liking rather than take the bull by the horns and shamelessy agitate for socialism
Yeah, criticizing a flawed movement is actually reactionary and being an armchair revolutionary. "just go agitate if you don't like it" fucking who? the factory workers who were working during the general strikes? Either way they would kick you out for even distributing leaflets. The situation is developing, no one is denying that, as you could see from the responses from several days ago. What a waste of time.

>>2200457
>their attitudes to the workers in this country, which started long before that whole shitshow in the park
you're again conflating two things (the student rebellion and the civil opposition), and accusing the students in blockades of classism, despite them standing in solidarity with GSP, ESP, teachers, pharmacy workers. you're again conflating the 0.3% of lumpen in the pioneer park with the working class.

have you wondered why there is no general strike? because it's illegal to strike in Serbia. only the highest syndical instance in Serbia has the right to declare strike across branches. so if you want workers to join you'll first have to appeal the law on strikes.

>>2200857
Might have not been concrete enough but I do see the difference between the two. The political situation differs from university to university but overall I think that they are doing good things overall.

>>2200857
Regarding the strikes, I’m over all sceptical that even without these laws that they would be successful, though of course there is no denying that they had a significant impact

Im glad retards stopped saying this is a western backed colour revolution at least

>>2200908
That was never the point being made r-tard, it was that disorganised, unrevolutionary movements are likely to be co-opted by the west to develop it into an attempt at a colour revolution, NOT
>This always happens without fail
>It always succeeds when an attempt is made
>That the protests in Serbia originate with western-backed orgs
>That the protests in Serbia have been co-opted
>That the protests in Serbia will be co-opted
It's simply just that there is a risk of such a scenario where this or that protest develops into a colour revolution or a Euromaidan, where the end result resembles nothing like what people took to the street to achieve.

It's just common sense based on historical precedent set in the 21st century so far and the only people who get irate over the concerns are adventurists and opportunists who only care about seeing (and being seen to support) "action", just as a general aesthetic of there being people on the streets with signs and demands, the movement underpinning it is simply an afterthought that Marxists can and should try to utilise somehow.

>>2200916
just admit that you didn't investigate and spoke up despite that

>>2188245
<The implications are obvious; a color revolution is in the works.
>>2200916
>That was never the point being made r-tard

>>2200918
>>2200919
OP changed his mind

>>2200919
Nice cherry picking, there is that one sentence plus many more describing why the OP was concerned that this was a developing colour revolution and the points made were reasonable to provide doubt on the veracity and likelihood of success for this movement.

I try to only go outside for essential stuff like getting groceries because I don't want to accidentally ignite a color revolution

>>2200924
And see, that's all you've got to push back against the concerns, a conceited over-confidence expressed with sarcasm.

If you don't really care about socialism or colour revolutions, if either pales in comparison to just supporting whatever random movement appears out of the ether for appearances sake, then fine but you are a deeply unserious leftist.

>>2200919
That was specifically aimed at the march 15th protest which could have realistically happened

https://www.instagram.com/p/DHt8yDuM6Na/
students in blockades are now helping coordinate four of the largest syndical organizations in Serbia

>>2200929
>which could have realistically happened
no it could not have. take the L already

>>2201437
Lol the students lost control of the protests and had to cancel it. Parallels were drawn between the october 5th protest and this one from the beginning. Either way it doesnt matter anymore.
>>2201435
Based

>>2200295
>the protestors have done a good job of alienating themselves from the peasants and the proletariat
I have never head of someone not already associated with SNS getting offended by "sandwichers" or "ćaci" and the "ćaci" mistake sounds more like something an urban youth who usually uses Latin instead of Cyrillic would do.
Truly illiterate people in Serbia are very small minority and probably mostly Roma people who didn't go to school.
>>2201460
They planned in advance to cancel it if they lose control. That would mean that your feared color revolution scenario was already planned for and averted. There was also that Stav voice recording leak that talked about inciting the masses to request a transition government, so people knew in advance to look out for things like that.

>>2200349
>Even the idea of Expert Government or the Government of People's Trust has been completely discredited by the sudent movement.
Unfortunately the idea got revived and students of some faculties are officially for it now.

>>2206765
>Unfortunately the idea got revived and students of some faculties are officially for it now.
WRONG AND I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! LET ME DEBUNK IT!!

nova reported firstly and this was picked up by other portals how "niš students suggested and accepted an expert government". I got this from another portal which copied the news from nova before they changed it i.e.
https://www.glassumadije.rs/studenti-iz-nisa-predlazu-ekspertsku-vladu-sastanak-sa-predstavnicima-ostalih-univerziteta-odrzan-juce-u-kragujevcu/)
>Prema informacijama Nova.rs, studenti niških fakulteta, već nekoliko nedelja vode raspravu o modelu prelazne, odnosno ekspertske Vlade. Na kraju, ovaj predlog je dobio podršku na plenumu.
>Njihova ideja ekspertske Vlade juče je u Kragujevcu predstavljena delegatima Univerziteta iz Beograda, Novog Sada, Novog Pazara i samog Kragujevca.
so "students from niš" suggested an expert government yesterday in kragujevac, and it was "accepted at the plenum" (which plenum? the first report also stated ALL but the electrotechnical faculty supported the expert government, but then this was also redacted but I can't find this anywhere atm so don't believe me blindly).

and then if you look at the news now it says
https://nova.rs/vesti/politika/saznajemo-studenti-iz-nisa-predlazu-ekspertsku-vladu-sastanak-sa-predstavnicima-ostalih-univerziteta-odrzan-juce-u-kragujevcu/
<u Kragujevcu je juče održan sastanak predstavnika svih Univerziteta u Srbiji na kojem je predstavljen predlog ekspertske Vlade. Tek ako bude usvojen na plenumima svih univerziteta u blokadi, ovaj predlog će biti predstavljen javnosti.
so now it is some "meeting of representatives of all universties in serbia" in kragujevac that suggested the expert government, and there is no mentioned of niš or plenums but they add
<Tek ako bude usvojen na plenumima svih univerziteta u blokadi, ovaj predlog će biti predstavljen javnosti.

IT'S LITERALLY FAKE NEWS DON'T BELIEVE THE FAKE NEWS

Western funded colour revolution.

Send in the tanks and mow them down.

>>2206783
Okay, then I guess we'll see if students from other universities support that. Nova/N1 have been pushing the expert government thing a lot.

>>2206787
Maybe if The West is funding then they could also pay the teachers and professors whose wages got stolen by the government.

>>2206787
So western funded that they are literally doing nothing to help it lmao.

>>2206765
>I have never head of someone not already associated with SNS getting offended by "sandwichers" or "ćaci" and the "ćaci" mistake sounds more like something an urban youth who usually uses Latin instead of Cyrillic would do.
I dont care if they are offended or not because that is not the main issue. It shows that middle the middle class is not capable of of being sympathetic towards those who they call sandwitchers etc. acting as if them (the lower classes of SnS voters) are somehow traitors for voting for the SnS/
Let me remind you that there is currently no mainstream party which represents the needs of the proletariat, but the ones who voted for the opposition still feel greater moral superiority (the fact that the protests are apolitical in nature is besides the point, the notion of superiority is still accepted one way or another)
The protests are a huge waste of time and will achieve nothing in the long run, precisely because of the Us vs Them dynamic they have created. The point now is to have a different Vucic in power, the difference being that he will wear some other party's colors

>>2206937
>I dont care if they are offended or not because that is not the main issue. It shows that middle the middle class is not capable of of being sympathetic towards those who they call sandwitchers etc. acting as if them (the lower classes of SnS voters) are somehow traitors for voting for the SnS/
Why "somehow" when the logic is pretty clear? They received a bribe to vote for SNS (which is supposedly bad for everyone)
>Let me remind you that there is currently no mainstream party which represents the needs of the proletariat, but the ones who voted for the opposition still feel greater moral superiority
That's not something strange for "democracies" anywhere the world.
>(the fact that the protests are apolitical in nature is besides the point, the notion of superiority is still accepted one way or another)
They're not apolitical, they students just don't want to be associated with the opposition and NGOs or have their protests taken over by them.
>The protests are a huge waste of time and will achieve nothing in the long run, precisely because of the Us vs Them dynamic they have created.
Why? According to some polls the majority of the population (as well as the majority of every age bracket except for the oldest one) supports of the students.
>The point now is to have a different Vucic in power, the difference being that he will wear some other party's colors
That's just the classic "svi su isti" rhetoric. SNS is simply worse that the average neoliberal party, and getting rid of SNS even if another neoliberal coalition takes the lead would still be a win.

>>2207124
>Why "somehow" when the logic is pretty clear? They received a bribe to vote for SNS (which is supposedly bad for everyone)
Thats such bullshit moralizing, do you think the people who take a measly 2000 dinars for a vote really have any other choice? The question is not IF they are doing it or if it's bad, because no one wants people to be bribed obviously, it's a question of WHY, which is yet to be addressed.
Everyone knows that dead people turn up to vote for the SnS, and that they are corrupt as shit, however the methods they use have not been criticized outside of being called blatant corruption. The liberal idea of "sandwichers", which coincides with the idea of traitors, is just an ineffective guilt-trip and agitation of the middle class.
>getting rid of SNS even if another neoliberal coalition takes the lead would still be a win.
is this fucking bait?

>>2206937
I am telling you once again your pearl clutching is baseless. What remains of the SNS machinery is less than 0.3% of Serbia's population. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THESE PARASITES. They can all get it, they should be hanged in the streets, they should be chased and it's GOOD that political class violence is normalized even if it is petty bourgeois class infighting. Society is demarcated, and you're choosing to defend our cringe black hundreds. Think about that.

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>>2207189
>What remains of the SNS machinery is less than 0.3% of Serbia's population.

>>2207255
see for my calculations >>2200344

>>2207266
wow pretty rock solid evidence there, I yield

>>2207268
take your quippy one liners back to reddit faggot, we are communists here

>>2207272
you're the one basing the number of total SnS voters on the number of attending protesters. Get a grip, the protests didnt dismantle the whole party just like that

>>2207278
Or to be more precise, youre conflating the number of people who get benefits and who will vote for the SnS with the total number of attendants, still fucking stupid

>>2207278
>>2207280
yeah and your whole point is "hurrr there are MILLIONS voting for SNS so any kind of natural hatred towards the proactive 0.3% that is everywhere and has no shame about being in SNS means DA PROTESTORS HATE DA POOR PEOPLE"
this is your whole point. literally no one cares if you had to sell your ass to survive, people care when you make it a point to defend the SNS machinery

I have a friend who is involved with one of the big student soviets that sprung up, some spark notes
>lots of battles with liberals in the various subcomittees of the student occupation soviets. The liberals within the soviets want to press dumb technocratic demands, many fights about this are occurring right now.
>plans are being circulated among the students to link up the student soviets with the most strike prone labor unions in the country and basically subordinate the student demands to the worker demands and try to bring workers on board

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>>2215429
Dare I say, based?

>>2215430
yeah extremely
the government id despised and the liberal opposition are considered morons and totally discredited so the people are looking around for another direction. Serbia is the country to watch at this moment in my opinion. Very ripe situation.

>>2215429
From what I've heard recently the only university that stayed based and true to the original goals of the blockades is Belgrade's university of philosophy where they are making their opportunistic professors seethe because they can see right through them

>>2215947
That’s where he is I think

>>2200857
>have you wondered why there is no general strike? because it's illegal to strike in Serbia. only the highest syndical instance in Serbia has the right to declare strike across branches. so if you want workers to join you'll first have to appeal the law on strikes.
How do you think strikes became permissible in the first places? Workers went on illegal strikes until the state legalised striking, as in promising not to punish striking workers with live ammunition. If you have a trade union that doesn't do strikes and can't even threaten to strike, it's not a trade union, it's an NGO. Maybe a lefty NGO, but an NGO. Submitting to strike laws is basically carrying water for the liberal opposition, because if they don't go on a strike, striking will remain illegal, but forming stupid libshit parties and boosting them with CIA funded propaganda will stay legal and as such remain the only avenue to express discontent, to the benefit of SNS.

I don't want to be overly cynical, especially as a foreigner, but if the unions remain passive for whatever reason (corruption or just lack of worker support), then this is going to end in a liberal victory which will lead to an SNS victory.

The tensions continue to rise.

I have a hot take, I came to this understanding as I began to think more about our circumstances in Serbia.

Serbia has a "kulak"-like problem. In the sense of, this is not a standard worker vs bourgeois struggle.

What is the problem? Liberals call it corruption, but the word "corruption" actually obfuscates the graveness of the situation. Maybe that's why some anons here don't understand why this is not typical political corruption like say in the US.

We essentially have a class of people who have all taken, individually, a "slice of the pie" for themselves. The pie in question? The very capital of the state - the resources like money and property. This class of people is not, mind, exclusively the politicians and oligarchs at the top - it in fact includes the incompetent nepotistically-employed state employees. As we say in Serbian, "preko veze" (I know a guy who can help you…)

It is literally in their interest as a class of people for the continued robbery of the state to continue. At the expense of everyone else living here and paying already high taxes even at the lowest income brackets. The Serbian people are collectively being robbed by these people. Not just robbed, slowly killed. And not in the sense of some ancap shit like "taxation is theft", to avoid misunderstanding, but in the sense that the capital from the taxes isn't even being used for what it would be used in a liberal capitalist state. Rather, it is directly used for self-benefit.

Uhleb. How to translate this word? Parasite? Hleb means bread. U means in. In-bread? Hand-in-bread? Bread-taker?

Here is an anecdote. My grandma lives very poor and receives social security (not a pension, she doesn't qualify for one, but literally social benefits). One recent winter, she told me, she went to the opština (local center or however you would translate it) to get wood, as wood is given out for free to people like her for heating. She told me, they refused to give her wood, because she wasn't a member of SNS. The uhlebi did that. The very same uhlebi we are supposed to feel sorry for, according to rightists. I can't express by text how furious I was when I heard that from my grandma.

This is class conflict and the lines are clear - uhlebi versus the rest of Serbia.

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Yugo-flag anon, I have to disappoint you. These are not serious communists. What is this performative radlib shit?
<In the book "Lenin" by Lev Danilkin, we find the passage:
>"Lenin, who in everyday speech often used the phrase 'only Allah knows' (Arabic: Allahu a'alam) to mean 'there is no information and there cannot be any.'"
<When we use Arabic terms like *"insha'Allah"* and *"alhamdulillah"*, we do so akin to the bygone Native American chant *"hoka-hey"*, for Arabs are to imperialists the Native Americans of the 21st century. Moreover, there are no words that can quite "upset" liberals, so we won’t waste time unmasking them.

Firstly, citing a literally who author? And I can't even find on Google Lenin's usage of this phrase.

Secondly, who the fuck are they kidding? Are we going to pretend now that Serbs via Bosniaks, Bosnian Muslims, who literally speak the same language and lived alongside Serbs in the same freaking country, have never heard of "inshallah"? Or that Serbs themselves don't literally use the Arabic borrowed phrase "mašala"? That our language doesn't have loads of Arabic loanwords via Turkish? No, this all seems very foreign gentlemen, this will surely own the libs.

This both glows ("here let me quote literally who J. Sakai to sound coincidentally inflammatory" energy) and is somehow miraculously out of touch with Serbian/Yugoslav culture and history.

>>2220799
>And I can't even find on Google Lenin's usage of this phrase.
in the book materialism and empirocriticism Lenin i think twice calls upon Allah

>>2220799
>These are not serious communists
yeah I think that's pretty clear, since their presence is limited to Xitter and Facebook, where they write witty posts. Oh well

>>2220836
Vučić again barely manages to mobilize 60k people even when he's bussing people in from Bosnia, Macedonia or Kosovo. Take that 3/4 were from Serbia proper, assume all are members of SNS and STILL this is just 40k out of almost 5.9mln people. No, these are not the 'poor and downtrodden' that joined SNS to survive, this is what remains of the machinery. I'm once again proven correct about my estimates that this less than 0.2% of actively supporting Vučić. Put them all into labor camps.

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rare tito

>>2220799
>And I can't even find on Google Lenin's usage of this phrase.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1908/mec/three3.htm
<Allah alone knows from what source Bogdanov took this reference.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/tactics/
<It would be criminal, the new-Iskra leader-writer continues, “to attack the revolution in the rear”. What this sentence means, God only knows. ("allah" in the original Russian)
Though considering he wrote "allah" without capitalizing it, he obviously used it in a tongue-in-cheek way, not as some "anti-colonialist" statement

>>2220902
yeah, and the machinery of the SNS system still manages to oppress the people through their tactics, which one way or the other successfully forces people to support them. In other words, were there magically a referendum now which would determine the future of the party, with all the fraud and corruption aside, there would still be a big turnout on the side of the government.
The people take sides on the basis of surviving or on the side they think is the best. I don't think there is any diehard Vucic fan. Your " 0.2% of the population" stance is so far removed from the material conditions of the serbian workers and is laughable.

>>2206783
>>2206790
The expert government thing is gaining a lot of steam, I've heard that the proposal had majority support on the Great Meeting of Delegates of each town except Belgrade, and that it's quite shaky in Novi Sad too, because the biggest FTN was against. Hopefully the Belgrade faculties can figure out a good opposing idea.
I've also seen the criteria for experts that some of the pro-expert government faculties posted, and they're absurd. There's probably like less than 10 people who fulfill the criteria in the whole Serbia, I can't think of anyone. It is such a shit idea.

>>2221247
atp Belgrade is mostly against, novi sad also has the philosophy faculty and ftn against the expert government. but this is to be expected. the periphery is always more regressive than the main cities. but now an expert government is impossible without overthrowing Vučić (since he got someone to be premier). so nothing will happen. the fake opposition has no popular support to pull off a 6th October and the students are not going anywhere without a unified declaration

>>2221263
The fake opposition according to like two recent polls I saw has basically had no change in polling numbers lmao

Well, yugo ended up confirming it's a grassroot revolt

>>2243964
still a nothingburger

>>2221247
Now the expert government thing is being abandoned and instead some faculties voted that they want to create a political party to represent the student movement and call for parliamentary elections. This is probably not going to happen because SNS has to vote that in the parliament and they're probably going to lose if they did a snap election now, and they know it, while the scheduled election is in 2027.

>>2248799
It's official, it passed in the Great Meeting of Delegates of each town, meaning that the students are asking for parliamentary elections and forming a representative list for those elections, but that doesn't mean they're going to happen before 2027.
The students themselves aren't actually going to be on the list. They agreed to allocate a number of spaces on the list to each faculty in the country, then the plenums of each faculty will vote on people they want on their part of the list. The list will probably contain a lot of university professors.

>>2256267
This was to be expected, and should come as no surprise to anyone that a movement such as this would shoot itself in the foot. Is it officially over?

>>2256292
There's no talk about stopping the blockades yet, it's just a new thing to wait for. In my opinion the elections are not going to come either, just like the previous things they were waiting for.

>>2256296
If Russia admits they're killing Pussylips do you think our sns degenerates will still blame the west and western color revolution?

>>2256292
well it will probably linger for a while and the political atmosphere is going to be changed for at least a couple of years, but yeah it's over. good effort though can't blame the neoliberal youth for being blind they did their best

>>2256326
I don't think this is a western color revolution, just that the movement has a lot of liberal ideology around it and they're fighting in ineffective ways.

>>2256335
What a waste though. All the talk of a general strike, yet none were conscious enough to realize that without fighting for workers rights and interests there won’t be one. They really did not try even the slightest to mobilize the industrial worker

>>2256349
>were conscious enough to realize that without fighting for workers rights and interests there won’t be one
they were pretty good for the middle class. the last mayday protest was coordinated with them and syndicates and they demanded a change in the law on work and on strikes. so something concrete that helps worker organization.

>>2256363
I think that most students aren't so mind-poisoned that they thing that syndicates are bad, but I don't think they see organizing workers/workplaces as way of fighting, and relying only on already politically active syndicates isn't going to get you far because they've already been trying and failing to improve workers rights for decades.

>>2256363
It’s funny to see people accuse the protests of being organized by left wing radicals and anarchists. Would be kind of cool to see the PRL get some recognition

>>2256373
Actually, the talking point now is that the majority of students in blockade are good (they mean liberal) students but that a small minority of Khmer Rouges are derailing the whole movement.
There's also that Vucic's "bolshevik plenumers" quote from a few weeks ago.

>>2256387
Total Trivunac Victory

new osmatračnica

>the philosophy, economy and theology faculty came out together with an anti-EU statement after the students demanded elections and the EU vultures latched on the demand to get power
incredible developement

>>2266571
This is probably a reaction to pro-EU libs suddenly starting to complain about the fact that rightwing flags were allowed on the protests but EU flags were banned.

>>2267292
It's not that EU flags were banned. We just have a lot of fascistic "patriotic" nutjobs attacking people for the slightest "provocation". Hence the pro-EU libs stopped trying to carry EU flags when they realized they might get their heads caved in by thugs.
And before anyone says "based", I hate the EU as much as anyone, but I don't think we should be rooting for fascistic violence (violence directed at people who have nothing to do with big capital). They can hate libs like us, doesn't mean we should be encouraging them to continue their policing of "traitors" (which, if you were not naive, would realize includes us here on leftypol, if you aren't foolish enough to think they wouldn't direct the same violence against communists, "enemies" of their beloved church among other things.)

>>2269577
Wasn't there an official ban on EU flags on one of the earlier protests, where the Working Group for Security directly told some people who brought an EU flag not to fly it?

>>2269577
If you’re going to bat for the EU, one of the main perpetrators of the second Generalplan Ost, then you have no right to call anyone else “fascist” when you’re supporting a Nazi state

>>2274119
As far as I'm aware not a single student social media account ever singled out EU flags as banned.
>>2274132
>bat for the EU
I neither bat for the EU, nor do I bat for "patriotic" nutjob thugs. Sorry that being a communist is too complicated for you.

So the situation now is that administrations and some professors of various faculties are making plans for either online classes or asynchronous classes (where they don't hold classes and just post studying material online, expecting the students to learn them before exams) to finish classes in time for exams. This is probably illegal, but the government is just going to ignore it if they succeed in pushing it. Also, even if they start now, and work all weekends, it's not really possible to hold all the missed classes before exam time.

This is after the government a few months ago changed the ratio of hours worked on research vs teaching on state universities to be pretty much all in teaching, so they can just not pay academic staff because there's no teaching being done. A few months ago they crushed the teacher strikes and school blockades by not paying teacher salaries, paying them something like $2 for the entire month.

>you are pro-western if you protest pro-EU president which donated 5 mil to hillary clinton in 2016, armed Ukraine and Israel, de facto recognized Kosovo, wants western resource exploitation firms on Serbian soil, calls Macron and Merkel his friends but demonstrators are one who are paid shills
🥪🥪🥪🥪🥪🥪🥪

>>2284985
you are right brother just one more marathon to Brussels and the whole structure of the SNS will self destruct. Also PUMPAJ PUMPAJ

>>2286982
those are just singular groups of students. there are students marching to athos as well. is le studente movemente now monarchofasistic? get a grip. elections are not gonna get called any time soon (vučić won't do it) and there can be millions of things happening in between changing the route of the movement.

>>2286994
the students proved themselves useless and ahve achieved literally nothing since november. i dont give a shit about the movement anymore, because clearly there isnt one

>>2287009
False. Various polls say SNS rating is at the lowest since they took over and also the whole zbor thing, while not much impactful, would have never happened without the student movement.

>>2287009
>ahve achieved literally nothing since november
<6 months of direct democratic organizing in plenums and 3 moths of zbor organizing is a nothingburger
<5 month total university blockade is a nothingburger
<liberated student areas spreading antiimperialist ideas
<anti-colonial sentiment against EU and Rio Tinto building and sabotaging the german war industry
yeah bro total nothingburger things just happen in a vacuum

>>2286982
That is valid critique, students need more resolve and less of that embarrassing shit (biking to Strasbourg, running to Brussels)
It is truly sad how protests are kinda fizzling out, unironically only truly effective protest happened on 3rd November (like first protest of the bunch) when protesters actually did shit (stormed SNS hq in Novi Sad and stormed city hall) but after that they got watered down into whatever this is rn.

>>2287086
Yeah, only way things can go forward without fizzling out is if we force elections and if we do that there are two outcomes
>First outcome: We win, fair and square, Vučić concedes
>Second outcome (more likely): Vučić rigs elections, entire nation rises, he is forced to step down in similar event to 5th October (I just hope we don't get aftermath similar to 5th October albeit, though I don't see it since students are unironically more anti-west than Vučić)

>>2289462
the actions of the first wave of protests were universally condemned and the attackers were labeled provocateurs and agents of the SNS
>>2289465
I have said this many times over the course of 2 months on this thread that the working class truly have been neglected by the protestors. Not even the Zbors (correct me if im wrong) had any actual influence over the events of the protests. Politically, the movement is bankrupt (see that cunt of a pro-israeli professor on hunger strike everyone is freaking out over). Not one truly progressive demand was demanded. We are utterly fucked.

>>2289462
What did the 3rd November protest accomplish? The city hall storming was quite pointless and due to the opposition's reaction to the events, the vibe was that the protests are going to be short, like the ones in December 2023.

>>2289672
Are chuds right? Does nothing ever happen

>>2289724
Nothingeverhappeners are burned out of years where things looked like would happen but then nothing ever happened. Now they don't except anything to happen ever, even when things have just happened.


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