[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta ] [ wiki / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password(For file deletion.)

Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1742103246170-0.png (279.53 KB, 460x306, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1742103246170-1.png (166.24 KB, 425x495, adam smith2.png)

File: 1742103246170-2.png (238.61 KB, 1794x790, ADAM_SMITH.png)

 

Thread #2 is hereby dedicated to Adam Smith, since we had a very dedicated "Smithian" anon keep the previous thread alive for several months. Here's to you buddy. Thanks for posting.

Links:

Archive of Thread #1
https://archive.ph/ROnpO

Featured: An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/38194/pg38194.txt

Youtube Playlists
Anwar Shaikh - Historical Foundations of Political Economy
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTMFx0t8kDzc72vtNWeTP05x6WYiDgEx7
Anwar Shaikh - Capitalism: Competition, Conflict and Crises
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB1uqxcCESK6B1juh_wnKoxftZCcqA1go
Anwar Shaikh - Capitalism
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz4k72ocf2TZMxrEVCgpp1b5K3hzFWuZh
Andrew S. Rightenburg - Human-Read Audiobook (not AI voice or TTS voice) of Capital Volume 1
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUjbFtkcDBlSHVigHHx_wjaeWmDN2W-h8
Andrew S. Rightenburg - Human-Read Audiobook (not AI voice or TTS voice) of Capital Volume 2
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUjbFtkcDBlSxnp8uR2kshvhG-5kzrjdQ
Andrew S. Rightenburg - Human-Read Audiobook (not AI voice or TTS voice) of Capital Volume 3
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUjbFtkcDBlRoV5CVoc5yyYL4nMO9ZJzO
Andrew S. Rightenburg - Human-Read Audiobook (not AI voice or TTS voice) of Theories of Surplus Value
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUjbFtkcDBlQa-dFgNFtQvvMOgNtV7nXp
Paul Cockshott - Labor Theory of Value Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKVcO3co5aCBnDt7k5eU8msX4DhTNUila
Paul Cockshott - Economic Planning Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKVcO3co5aCDnkyY9YkQxpx6FxPJ23joH
Paul Cockshott - Materialism, Marxism, and Thermodynamics Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKVcO3co5aCBv0m0fAjoOy1U4mOs_Y8QM
Victor Magariño - Austrian Economics: A Critical Analysis
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpHi51IjLqerA1aKeGe3DcRc7zCCFkAoq
Victor Magariño - Rethinking Classical Economics
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpHi51IjLqepj9uE1hhCrA66tMvNlnItt
Victor Magariño - Mathematics for Classical Political Economy
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpHi51IjLqepWUHXIgVhC_Txk2WJgaSst
Geopolitical Economy Hour with Radhika Desai and Michael Hudson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7ejfZdPboo&list=PLDAi0NdlN8hMl9DkPLikDDGccibhYHnDP

Potential Sources of Information
Leftypol Wiki Political Economy Category (needs expanding)
https://leftypedia.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Political_economy
Sci-Hub
https://sci-hub.se/about
Marxists Internet Archive
https://www.marxists.org/
Library Genesis
https://libgen.is/
University of the Left
http://ouleft.sp-mesolite.tilted.net/Online
bannedthought.net
https://bannedthought.net/
Books scanned by Ismail from eregime.org that were uploaded to archive.org
https://archive.org/details/@ismail_badiou
The Great Soviet Encyclopedia: Articles from the GSE tend to be towards the bottom.
https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/
EcuRed: Cuba's online encyclopedia
https://www.ecured.cu/
Books on libcom.org
https://libcom.org/book
Dictionary of Revolutionary Marxism
https://massline.org/Dictionary/index.htm
/EDU/ ebook share thread
https://leftypol.org/edu/res/22659.html
Pre-Marxist Economics (Marx studied these thinkers before writing Capital and Theories of Surplus Value)
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/index.htm
Principle writings of Karl Marx on political economy, 1844-1883
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/economy/index.htm
Speeches and Articles of Marx and Engels on Free Trade and Protectionism, 1847-1888
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/free-trade/index.htm
Political Economy After Marx's Death
https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/postmarx.htm
359 posts and 91 image replies omitted.

>>2235565
Jesus christ lay off the orange text

>>2235667
Why you mad? People on here use green text when quoting other anons and orange text when quoting books. It makes it eaier to understand.

>>2235565
>>yet marx says that paper currency must not exceed the gold supply.
>He is talking about the state making a law, and again this is specifically about paper money, that being a promissory bank note specifically for gold as a legal construct, and not money in general as all types of tokens that regulate exchange.

Interesting how the other anon keeps lifting statements out of their specific contexts and presents them as having the broadest applicability. Almost like somebody who pokes around for what looks useful at the moment without ever reading several pages in one go 🤔

File: 1745308084060.jpg (176.27 KB, 1200x900, s-l1200.jpg)

>>2235701
>context
the paper money that marx discusses is not promissory notes, or bills of exchange, but inconvertible notes, so who has the context wrong?
<"We allude here only to inconvertible paper money issued by the State and having compulsory circulation [vol. 1, ch. 3]"
>Almost like somebody who pokes around for what looks useful at the moment without ever reading several pages in one go
interpret this statement for me,
<"Paper money is a token representing gold or money […] Only in so far as paper money represents gold, which like all other commodities has value, is it a symbol of value [vol. 1, ch. 3]"
if i was wrong, i could be proven wrong.
yet i am right, so i can only be proven right.

>>2235670
>It makes it eaier to understand
Before or after being given your epilepsy meds?

>>2236916
just sounds like a skill issue on your part ngl

File: 1745311685505.png (11.13 KB, 563x36, ClipboardImage.png)


>>2236922
what? so you think marx was actually talking about a gold-backed fiat currency in 19th century england? 🤣
stop humiliating yourself. marx already discussed "fiat" (by decree) currency here:
<"Lawyers started long before economists the idea that money is a mere symbol, and that the value of the precious metals is purely maginary. This they did in the sycophantic service of the crowned heads, supporting the right of the latter to debase the coinage, during the whole of the middle ages, by the traditions of the Roman Empire and the conceptions of money to be found in the Pandects. […] it was a maxim of the Roman Law that the value of money was fixed by decree of the emperor. It was expressly forbidden to treat money as a commodity [.] some good work on this question has been done by G. F. Pagnini […] the second part of his work Pagnini directs his polemics especially against the lawyers. [ch. 2, footnote 11]"
his disapproval is that when you fix the supply of currency in this way, you de-commodify it and therefore "debase" its value. this footnote is in the context of dismissing locke, who imagined precious metals to only possess an illusory value, to marx's scorn.

>>2236936
>gold-backed fiat currency
???
>his disapproval
where are you reading disapproval? and what is it a footnote of?

<The fact that money can, in certain functions, be replaced by mere symbols of itself, gave rise to that other mistaken notion, that it is itself a mere symbol. Nevertheless under this error lurked a presentiment that the money-form of an object is not an inseparable part of that object, but is simply the form under which certain social relations manifest themselves. In this sense every commodity is a symbol, since, in so far as it is value, it is only the material envelope of the human labour spent upon it.


He is saying that money is still a commodity, even when it is a mere symbol, even when its declared illegal for it to be a commodity, because it actually represents commodified labor. I don't know how you are not getting this. Even when it is backed by gold the limit to production is labor, not gold. A "unit" of gold, a pound an ounce a gram, is arbitrary. If the supply decreases their is inflation which suppresses wages relative to it until the ratio of total supply to total labor evens out, and the same if it increases. They aren't going out and mining gold one-to-one with the entire rest of the economy because the emperor declared minimum wage to be a gram. Debase isn't a moral category here hes talking about the ratio going down. How does fiat break Marx's theory if he already accounted for it? What fucking nonsense are you even arguing?

>>2236944
>???
are you dumb? you were equating inconvertible money with fiat, to imply that marx's discussion of paper money was about fiat, when its the opposite.
>where are you reading disapproval?
he is writing against the "lawyers" who suppotted fiat, very obviously. thats why he concludes by pointing to pagnini's polemics *against* the lawyers. you have the reading comprehension of a retard, just like when you accuse others of what i quote marx doing.
>He is saying that money is still a commodity, even when it is a mere symbol
wait, so you are finally admitting that to marx, money must be a commodity? its about time, eh?
>Even when it is backed by gold the limit to production is labor, not gold
and where does labour attain its value to marx? by its relation to the money commodity. what labour value does fiat have?
>If the supply decreases their is inflation
there*
>Debase isn't a moral category here hes talking about the ratio going down
yes, which he views disfavourably. thats why he says that paper money "ought" not to extend its limited supply;
<"if the quantity of paper money issued be double what it ought to be, then, as a matter of fact, £1 would be the money-name not of 1/4 of an ounce, but of 1/8 of an ounce of gold [vol. 1, ch. 3]"
>How does fiat break Marx's theory if he already accounted for it?
fiat is not representing any universal equivalent, so it has no value, according to marx
>What fucking nonsense are you even arguing?
very simply, that marx has a commodity theory of money. something you have been forced to implicitly accept. now, i ask you, what is the commodity which fiat is supposed to represent as "paper money"? it does not represent any fixed commodity, thats why it has a "floating exchange rate". basic economics.

>>2236960
>money must be a commodity
Of course it is, it is commodified labor. That doesn't mean the symbol has to be a commodity.
>and where does labour attain its value to marx? by its relation to the money commodity.
Wrong, abstract labor is value.
>marx has a commodity theory of money
In the sense that money represents commodified labor, not that money is itself a commodity representing itself.

These "critiques" aren't even of Marx at this point. You are just making shit up thats not even possible to get out of the text without deliberate misinterpretation.

>>2236966
>Of course it is
oh, "of course" it is? then why have you been battling me all this time you babbling fool?
>That doesn't mean the symbol has to be a commodity.
to marx, it must still *represent* the universal equivalent commodity to have a value
>abstract labor is value.
yes, which must be embodied in a commodity… abstract labour is the substance of value (use-value), which must be compared by its magnitude by the value-form (exchange-value). money to marx, is simply the highest value form, from which a commodity relates its own value to the universal equivalent. this is basic stuff, man.
>In the sense that money represents commodified labour
yes… which to marx, is embodied in the money commodity!
>You are just making shit up
you mean that im citing sources directly? you are frustrated now because you know im right. you have already capitulated to every other point ive made, so theres no point fighting the truth.

>>2236983
>you are frustrated
I'm frustrated because I don't know how you could possibly still not understand what Marx is saying but you clearly don't even though all the tools have been provided.

Do you actually think that Marx's point is that if it takes 1 hour to mine 1 gram of gold that a worker in a factory earns 1 gram of gold per hour?

>>2236991
>I'm frustrated because I don't know how you could possibly still not understand
what exactly dont i understand?
>Do you actually think that Marx's point is that if it takes 1 hour to mine 1 gram of gold that a worker in a factory earns 1 gram of gold per hour?
well it all depends on the labour power of that society, so its a relative question, not counting the distribution between wages and profits. marx sees that value must equate itself to commodities either way however. ask your question more clearly.

>>2237001
Its a yes or no question. Does Marx say that value must equate itself to other commodities by equating to an equivalent amount of gold?

>>2236983
>to have a value
Is it having a value the same thing as it representing a value? Does Marx say the value of the money-commodity and that thing it is representing have to be equivalent in value?

Your dispute with Marx is becoming increasingly incoherent.

>>2237020
>Does Marx say that value must equate itself to other commodities
yes
>by equating to an equivalent amount of gold?
gold to marx is the money commodity, so its the same difference
>Is it having a value the same thing as it representing a value?
no. gold has a value. paper money is a symbol of that value. i misspoke in assigning paper money a value.
>Does Marx say the value of the money-commodity and that thing it is representing have to be equivalent in value?
its proportional to what it represents;
<"if the quantity of paper money issued be double what it ought to be, then, as a matter of fact, £1 would be the money-name not of 1/4 of an ounce, but of 1/8 of an ounce of gold [vol. 1, ch. 3]"
>Your dispute with Marx is becoming increasingly incoherent.
how so?

>>2237039
>so its the same difference
To an equivalent amount of gold measured in SNLT?
>i misspoke in assigning paper money a value.
Thats not what I'm asking. Is gold having a value the same thing as it representing a value. Is a measure of gold by weight, X grams having a value of X hours, the same as it representing a value? Can it represent a different value or do they have to be the same?
>its proportional to what it represents
So, what is the function of the value of gold, as money, and is it the same as the value that the gold represents?

Marx's answer is that the value of gold is trivial, and what matters is what it represents, which are not the same thing.

>how so?

You are doing a super convoluted triple backflip twist to say that Marx thinks value = price.

>>2237041
>To an equivalent amount of gold measured in SNLT?
yes. that is marx's basic value form:
[xA = yB]
>Is gold having a value the same thing as it representing a value
to marx, its value is embodied in its material qualities; it can only compare this value to other commodities.
>So, what is the function of the value of gold, as money
to be the measure of value;
<"It thus serves as a universal measure of value. And only by virtue of this function does gold, the equivalent commodity par excellence, become money [vol. 1, ch. 3]"
>Marx's answer is that the value of gold is trivial
so you dont believe in the LTV, then?
>and what matters is what it represents
so you are saying that the value of gold measures another commodity's magnitude? the value of gold is not trivial then, its the central factor of consideration.
>value = price
this is not related at all to what we are discussing. stay on topic.

>>2237053
>so you are saying that the value of gold measures another commodity's magnitude?
<what matters is what it represents
This is what I mean by deliberate.

>to be the measure of value

>>2235503
We talked about this yesterday. The value of gold is not its function, its function is to
<serve as a universal measure of value
otherwise, lacking the virtue of this function it ceases to be money, and returns to being just gold. Its value is incidental and not part of the equation.

>>2237066
how can gold represent another commodity's value if its own value is "trivial"?
>The value of gold is not its function, its function is to serve as a universal measure of value
and how do you think it measures values?
>Its value is incidental and not part of the equation.
… ever hear the term "universal equivalent"? what do you think is being given equation, exactly?

>>2236983
>>2237039
In Marx's theory, gold's value comes from SNLT, which not arbitrary, but the ratio of total gold to total labor is arbitrary with respect to gold, from the perspective of production, depending on how much gold a given nation has or mines, where as labor is constant for the same population. And with its denomination also being arbitrary, it is the ratio that is arbitrary, not the value. That is the proportion of total gold to total labor being equal, the portion of gold for a given wage is arbitrary, because what money represents under capitalism is abstract labor, not gold. If one hour of mining gold produces one gram, employers are not paying a factory worker one gram of gold per hour. When paper money is unmoored from a commodity, Marx says the value of the paper becomes pure illusion, what remains is the portion of total abstract labor a given denomination represents, its value measured in socially necessary labor time, and its price in a portion of money, be that gold or paper.

Marx traces money’s evolution as a social relation, not merely a technical tool. Money emerges as commodity-money from the need to express value through a universal equivalent. Gold becomes money because its production requires socially necessary labor time (SNLT), grounding value in material labor. Paper money initially represents gold (banknotes convertible to gold). Marx calls this a "token" or "symbol" of the money-commodity. With Inconvertible Paper/Fiat completely unmoored from gold, paper money becomes a "pure sign" of value, sustained by state power and social convention. Marx critiques this as a "nominalist illusion," yet acknowledges its necessity under capitalism.

Gold’s Value is not its monetary role, while gold’s value is tied to SNLT (labor to mine it), its monetary function (denominations, exchange ratios) is socially determined conventions, not inherent to gold’s value. When paper loses its commodity anchor, its value becomes a social fiction, but this fiction still mediates capitalist relations.

The total gold-to-labor ratio in a society is relative. Gold’s Quantity depends on mining output, imperial plunder, or central bank reserves, factors unrelated to the total labor-time of the population. The specific denomination is set by the state ($35/oz. in Bretton Woods), but this does not alter gold’s value (it's SNLT). If 1 hour of labor mines 1 gram of gold, a factory worker’s wage might be $20/hour, not 1 gram of gold. Money abstracts labor into a universal equivalent, masking the qualitative difference between specific concrete labor (mining) and abstract social labor.

When money becomes fiat (unmoored from gold), it does not refute Marx but instead his critique sharpens. Fiat’s value appears self-referential, but it ultimately represents a claim on total social labor. A dollar or euro represents a claim on a portion of society’s aggregate labor-time, even without a tangible commodity anchor. Inflation causes crisis, if fiat is overissued, if expands faster than real labor output, its purchasing power collapses, exposing the contradiction between symbolic value and material production.

Fiat money does not abolish the labor theory of value. Instead, it intensifies capitalism’s fetishism, value appears to spring from money itself (interest, speculation), obscuring its origin in exploited labor. SNLT remains the anchor of value, even as monetary forms evolve. Capitalism’s contradictions reflect the disconnect between symbolic money and material labor.

Value, as abstract labor, measured by SNLT, is objective, rooted in production). Exchange-Value as monetary expression, is arbitrary, and is shaped by social and political power. Money must both represent labor-time and function as an autonomous force. Gold historically bridged this gap; fiat severs it, relying on state violence (legal tender laws) to sustain the illusion.

Under the gold standard, gold’s value is naturalized, obscuring its origin in labor. The arbitrary denomination reinforces this mystification. With fiat money, the illusion deepens, value appears to emerge from the state or financial systems, not labor, but the system still depends on labor exploitation to generate real value. Both systems fetishize the form of money (gold/paper) while masking the substance (abstract labor).

Marx’s theory holds because labor is still exploited, Surplus value is extracted whether wages are paid in gold or digits. Reccuring financial collapses and crisis remind us that "fictitious capital" depends on real value production. The shift from gold to fiat does not abolish labor’s role, it heightens capitalism’s dependence on abstraction and power to sustain exploitation and value illusions like the fetish of money.

Whether gold-backed or fiat, money functions as a social hieroglyphic, representing labor-time while concealing exploitation. The "illusion" of fiat money’s value is a symptom of capitalism’s ability to adapt its domination mechanisms, not a refutation of labor’s role as the substance of value.

We can see confirmation of Marx's observations in recent history, with the increased fetishization of finance and speculation. Under neoliberalism, capitalism’s focus has shifted from producing goods to accumulating abstract claims on value (stocks, derivatives, cryptocurrencies).

These "fictitious capitals" (Marx’s term) are divorced from material production but dominate economic policy. In the 2008 crisis mortgage-backed securities and credit default swaps financial instruments with no material basis nearly collapsed the global economy. With quantitative easing central banks "create" money digitally to prop up markets, reinforcing the illusion that value springs from financial systems, not labor. This mirrors Marx’s critique of money as a "social hieroglyphic," but intensified: value is now doubly abstracted, hidden behind algorithms and speculative bubbles.

Imperialism justifies domination through idealist rhetoric ("spreading democracy," "free markets," "development") while materially extracting value while pretending to create and spread it. Loans from imperialist institutions (IMF, World Bank) trap nations in cycles of austerity, privatizing public goods and redirecting labor/value to foreign creditors. Global South nations are forced to prioritize export commodities (oil, minerals) for imperialist markets, while their labor and ecosystems are exploited. Here, material exploitation (of labor, land, resources) is obscured by the fetishized language of "free trade" and "economic growth," which naturalizes inequality as a neutral outcome of market logic.

States prioritize financialization and militarism over productive investment. Public services are slashed to service debt, privileging abstract fiscal metrics over human needs. Military-industrial complexes profit from destruction, treating war as a "growth sector" while displacing millions. These policies reflect a mystified idealism where "the market" is deified as an infallible force, even as it immiserates populations and destabilizes the planet. Its not misinformed politicians or bad economic choices but the natural logic of capital exactly as Marx described it.

>>2237072
Gold, as a commodity, has both a use-value in its physical properties (like being used in electronics or jewelry), and its exchange-value is determined by the socially necessary labor time (SNLT) required to produce it. But when gold becomes money, its role changes. It becomes the universal equivalent, representing the value of all other commodities.

Gold's value is initially necessary for it to serve as money. However, once gold is established as money, its symbolic role can take precedence, and it does. In practice, the symbolic representation (money) becomes detached from the underlying value (gold's SNLT). In modern economies, the symbolic function of money (even if originally based on gold) has overshadowed the material basis. This aligns with Marx's discussion of how money evolves and how capitalist systems can create forms of money that obscure the labor theory of value. In Marx's time, the gold standard was prevalent, so his analysis was based on that, but his analysis does not rely on it.

The primacy of the representational aspect of money over its material basis is a key aspect of Marx's critique of commodity fetishism. The value of gold as a commodity (SNLT) is real, but its role as money gives it a symbolic power that transcends its material value. This duality is important in understanding how capitalist economies function and how value is perceived socially. Marx would agree that, in practice, the symbolic role dominates under capitalism, but its historical material basis was necessary in the foundation for money’s social power.

This is not a contradiction in Marx, but a contradiction in capitalism. Capitalism’s value system appears self-sustaining, but the system’s stability is borrowed from the material world. Crises expose the fragility of the symbolic edifice, but underlying that is not the labor embedded in gold. The symbolic (money) cannot exist without the material (labor), but the labor here is not the labor in money, but the total socially necessary abstract labor. Gold’s value is the repressed foundation of a system that must deny its own basis to survive.

Gold's historic role is to provide a stable measure, even if market prices deviate. Marx's critique of abandoning the gold standard is not that its logically impossible, but that it is both irrational from the perspective of a capitalist wishing to maintain capitalist social relations and necessitated by the logic of Capital itself, as capital prioritizes the efficiency of profit over all else, all that is solid melts into air.

Gold’s position as money arises from its social function, not its physical properties alone. Gold’s value (SNLT) anchors it in the real world of production but this only works because society collectively agrees to use gold as the universal equivalent, masking the labor relations behind exchange. This duality allows gold to objectify abstract labor, transforming the qualitative diversity of concrete labor into a quantitative hierarchy. Gold’s symbolic power as money obscures this foundation, making value appear as a natural property of gold itself.

Marx’s genius was to show that value is a social relation, not a property of things, and money is the alienated expression of this relation. If producing a chair takes 10 hours and an ounce of gold takes 20 hours, the chair would be worth half an ounce of gold, but in reality a chair can also be worth a quarter or eighth an ounce of gold if notes are overissued. This shows that the exchange ratio of chairs for money is arbitrary, but the ratio between the portion of total social labor to create a chair, and total social labor to create all gold in circulation is constant. Money serves as a measure by its portion of total represented labor time not the labor embedded in gold directly.

In practice, the amount of gold (or money) a chair can command can change even if the SNLT for both doesn't change. This seems contradictory, but the key here is the difference between value and price. Price can deviate from value due to market factors like supply and demand. So even though the intrinsic value (SNLT) of the chair and gold are fixed, their prices in terms of each other can vary. Overissuing money like printing more paper notes affects the exchange ratio, which Marx attributes to changes in the value of money itself rather than the value of the underlying commodities.

Money's role as a measure of value isn't about the labor embedded in money itself but about the portion of total social labor it represents. So, if the total money supply increases, each unit represents a smaller slice of the total labor pie. This aligns with Marx's idea that money is a social relation, representing a claim on society's labor. While the exchange ratio (price) can become arbitrary, the underlying value (SNLT) of commodities remains tied to labor. Money's value is as a social construct representing a fraction of the total labor, rather than being directly anchored to a specific commodity's labor time. Money measures value not by its own SNLT (gold’s labor-time) but by its proportion to total social labor time.

Marx’s framework holds clearly, gold’s SNLT anchors value, and deviations reflect monetary policy decisions, not flaws in labor theory. In the C-M-C circuit, the first exchange (C-M) converts the commodity's value into a price (money), and then the second exchange (M-C) uses that money to acquire another commodity. It's the commodity's value being measured, not the money's value. With fiat money, the C-M-C process still involves measuring the commodity's value in terms of money (price), but since fiat isn't understood to be a commodity, the value measurement is more abstract. Fiat money still functions as a representation of social labor, even if it's not directly tied to a particular commodity's SNLT.

Price is the monetary expression of value isn't the same as value (SNLT), and in the exchange process, we're dealing with prices, not direct values. So even though Marx says value is determined by SNLT, the actual exchanges use prices, which can deviate. But Marx's theory is about the underlying value determining prices in the aggregate, even if individual prices vary, not about individual values. The process isn't about equating the value of money itself but using money as a measure for the commodity's value. So in the first exchange, the commodity's value is translated into a price, which is a quantity of money, but that doesn't mean we're measuring the money's value. Instead, money's role is to express the commodity's value. The measurement is about the portion of total social labor represented by the money, rather than the labor in the money itself. Value measurement works when money itself isn't a commodity, because prices represent a claim on total social labor rather than a direct equivalence.

Marx's asserts that money has value but this isn't necessary for its function, just a result of its historical development. Marx does argue that money originated as a commodity with intrinsic value (like gold) because it needed to be a universal equivalent grounded in socially necessary labor time (SNLT). However, once established, the form of money can evolve into symbols (paper, digital) that represent value without having intrinsic value themselves. Even though fiat money isn't a commodity, it's still fetishized as having inherent value, masking the underlying social relations of labor. While Marx argues that money must originate as a commodity with intrinsic value (gold or silver), he also acknowledges that, historically, money evolves into a symbolic form (paper or fiat) that no longer requires intrinsic value to function.

Early money (cattle, grain, metals) arose because societies needed a material basis for equivalence in exchange. Gold became dominant due to its durability, divisibility, and the labor required to mine it. Marx traces how money evolves from a commodity to a token or symbol (coins, paper notes, fiat). This shift is driven by capitalism’s need for flexibility and abstraction. Coins lose metal content over time but retain their face value, revealing that money’s social function (as a medium of exchange) can outlive its material substance. Governments issue paper money, initially backed by gold but eventually unmoored (fiat). Marx calls this a "forced loan" from the public, enforced by legal tender laws. Paper money has no intrinsic value, yet it functions as money because society collectively accepts it. This "illusion" relies on capitalism’s existing value relations (exploitation of labor) to sustain itself.

Marx insists that money’s commodity origins are important, because they explain why money retains its social power even as it becomes symbolic. Capitalist ideology naturalizes money’s symbolic forms, making it seem as if value arises from money itself. This fetishism is only possible because money originated as a commodity with labor-value, but that doesn't mean money must stay a commodity. When fiat systems collapse (hyperinflation, bank runs), the repressed truth resurfaces: value ultimately depends on real production (labor) and social trust, not abstract symbols.

Marx’s theory transcends the materiality of money. Whether money is gold or fiat, it is fundamentally a social relation. Fiat money embodies capitalism’s central contradiction that Marx discovered, value must be rooted in labor, but it is increasingly represented by abstract symbols. Marx’s theory is not undermined by fiat money, it is vindicated. Money’s commodity origins are a historical necessity, but its symbolic forms are a social necessity under capitalism. The tension between these poles defines capitalism’s unstable evolution.

Commodities are produced, sold for money, and money buys new commodities. This process depends on the totality of social labor and the continuity of circulation. Fixating on gold’s materiality ignores how money’s role is sustained by social relations. Gold’s importance dissolves when we recognize that money’s essence is not its material form but its function as a social claim on labor. This claim persists whether money is gold, paper, or digital. Marx’s target is not gold itself but the capitalist ideology that naturalizes money as a "thing" (gold, dollars) rather than a social relation. The belief that "gold = wealth" distracts from the reality that wealth derives from labor, not hoarding metal. Marx calls this "the religion of everyday life." Marx’s analysis of gold is not a defense of its necessity but a critique of capitalist mystification. The solution is not to return to a gold standard but to abolish the religion of money, to abolish capital as such. "The life-process of society, which is based on the process of material production, does not strip off its mystical veil until it is treated as production by freely associated men."

Marx's point, throughout this entire section, is that money is always already an abstract symbol of congealed abstract labor measured by SNLT and that the SNLT is proportional to the quantity of total money, not the value of that money. Precisely the opposite of what you claim, which can only be true if you conflate value and price and fetishize money as an object independent of its social relations, and treat individual exchanges isolated from circulation, which is exactly what Marx is critiquing.

File: 1745405137036.jpg (92.51 KB, 865x471, 94zx4p.jpg)

>>2237968
>In Marx's theory, gold's value comes from SNLT, which not arbitrary, but the ratio of total gold to total labor is arbitrary with respect to gold
marx sees that debasement occurs where you expand the money supply beyond its prior means; such that £1 can be worth less than what it was yesterday. so to say, there is inflation. we have already discussed this trend with reference to lowering the purchasing power of labour. so its not an "arbitrary" rate, but a proportional rate.
>where as labor is constant for the same population
not at all. labour power is always changing.
>And with its denomination also being arbitrary, it is the ratio that is arbitrary, not the value
nothing is "arbitrary"; it is proportional.
>what money represents under capitalism is abstract labor, not gold
to marx, gold and silver are the vessels of this abstract labour
>When paper money is unmoored from a commodity, Marx says the value of the paper becomes pure illusion
how do you still not get it? paper money to marx is not in any way separated from a commodity, but directly represents it
>Paper money initially represents gold (banknotes convertible to gold)
marx is talking about inconvertible money
>With Inconvertible Paper/Fiat
why are you being retarded again? fiat is not "paper money". paper money represents a commodity; fiat is a currency fixed in its value by the state. thats why the romans issued debased silver coins at the same rate as "real" coins.
>Marx critiques this as a "nominalist illusion"
source?
>Gold’s Value is not its monetary role [.] its monetary function (denominations, exchange ratios) is socially determined conventions, not inherent to gold’s value
do you know what an exchange ratio entails to marx? the comparison of its magnitude of value. this is inherent to its value.
>When paper loses its commodity anchor, its value becomes a social fiction, but this fiction still mediates capitalist relations.
yes, because marx was wrong about money having to be a commodity
>Money abstracts labor into a universal equivalent
youre so dense. a universal equivalent IS a commodity within the general value form.
>Fiat’s value appears self-referential, but it ultimately represents a claim on total social labor
yes because it represents markets, not individual commodities, like marx's idea.
>Fiat money does not abolish the labor theory of value
i never said it did. it only abolishes marx's theory of value.
>Exchange-Value as monetary expression, is arbitrary
so you dont believe in the LTV then?
>Gold historically bridged this gap; fiat severs it, relying on state violence
such an ahistorical, nonsensical comment. gold is a metal drenched in blood.
>to sustain the illusion.
what illusion? £1 is worth £1. this is reality.
>Under the gold standard, gold’s value is naturalized, obscuring its origin in labor
gold has only ever been valued based on its scarcity, not its production costs
>Marx’s theory holds because labor is still exploited
marx did not invent the LTV.
>In the 2008 crisis […] no material basis nearly collapsed the global economy.
it wasnt about any lack of "material basis", it was about enforcing debt. what happened in 2008 is that a bunch of bankers stole people's money and evicted thousands of people (just like in the great depression). it wasnt a crisis of labour or production, but of debt. if you nationalised banks, these crises would not have to happen.
>imperialism
its called debt slavery. its what all empires have done since the roman "tributes"; we just call them "taxes" today.
>States prioritize financialization and militarism over productive investment
this is the general law of state power, which is not confined to capitalism. lenin says very directly that imperialism is a transhistorical phenomenon.

>>2238056
>Gold, as a commodity, has both a use-value in its physical properties
to marx, a commodities' use-value is an expression of its substance of value, which is then given quantity in exchange-value.
>[gold] becomes the universal equivalent, representing the value of all other commodities.
yes, according from its own value.
>However, once gold is established as money, its symbolic role can take precedence
a symbol of value *must* represent gold
>the symbolic representation (money) becomes detached from the underlying value
the gold itself is the money; a symbol of value cannot be "detached" from a value
>In modern economies, the symbolic function of money has overshadowed the material basis.
theres nothing "immaterial" about fiat.
>[marx's] analysis does not rely on [gold]
he only speaks of gold - and critiques fiat
>The value of gold is real, but its role as money gives it a symbolic power
if you double the supply of paper money, you halve the value of gold, remember?
>Gold's historic role is to provide a stable measure, even if market prices deviate
this is right-wing propaganda. the historic role of gold was to serve as a natural monopoly to enslave populations. this is what defined the mercantile period of protection and hoarding. this is why silver gained the reputation of "the people's money"; gold is hoarded, silver is traded.
>Gold only works because society agrees to use gold as the universal equivalent
there is no "agreement"; there's a forced policy.
>Marx’s genius was to show that value is a social relation, not a property of things
the device he employs in the fetishism of commodities is to show how the fetishism is "real"; it really does express value by its exchange. man is subordinated to the commodity, as a self-expressing entity.
>This shows that the exchange ratio of chairs for money is arbitrary
so exchange value (SNLT) is "arbitrary"?
>Money serves as a measure [.] not the labor embedded in gold directly.
to marx, it is precisely measured in the gold directly. look at picrel.
>Money's role as a measure of value isn't about the labor embedded in money itself
yes it is; thats what allows it to "measure" values.
>While the exchange ratio (price) can become arbitrary, the underlying value (SNLT) of commodities remains tied to labor.
explain to me the difference between exchange rates and exchange value.
>Money measures value not by its own [value] but by its proportion to total social labor time.
so.. you mean, its value?
>It's the commodity's value being measured, not the money's value
and HOW is this value measured?
>With fiat money, the C-M-C process still involves measuring the commodity's value
there is no "measuring" since there is no common substance.
>the value measurement is more abstract
so how does £1 relate to £1 worth of goods?
>Price is the monetary expression of value isn't the same as value (SNLT)
the difference is that you can verify prices
>in the exchange process, we're dealing with prices, not direct values
so exchange value is all bullshit then?
>But Marx's theory is about the underlying value determining prices in the aggregate
you mean smith's concept of "natural price" conceived 91 years prior?
>Marx's asserts that money has value but this isn't necessary for its function
where, exactly, does marx say money doesnt require a value?
>the form of money can evolve into symbols
which to marx, only represent gold/silver
>historically, money evolves into a symbolic form (paper or fiat)
fiat and paper money existed milennia ago
>Early money (cattle, grain, metals) arose
hasnt the barter myth been debunked? in any case, the original money according to graeber is credit-money based in the circulation of debts via IOUs, ritually forgiven at the end of each cycle. this is why money was never a commodity, even though commodities can briefly serve as money. again, smith and marx are wrong.
>Gold became dominant due to its durability, divisibility, and the labor required to mine it.
this is all bullshit as ive explained. it gains use because of its scarcity, which naturally leads to monopoly.
>Marx traces how money evolves from a commodity to a token or symbol (coins, paper notes, fiat)
you keep sneaking fiat into marx's analysis, where he nowhere implies its legitimacy. he criticises it directly, even.
>Coins lose metal content over time but retain their face value
only when money is de-commodified
>Paper money has no intrinsic value
to marx, it must represent an intrinsic value
>money’s commodity origins are important
first, the barter myth is false. second, to marx, money is always a commodity.
>Capitalist ideology naturalizes money’s symbolic forms
to marx, money does possess an intrinsic value in relation to other commodities. remember aristotle?
>but that doesn't mean money must stay a commodity
money was never a commodity, as ive already explained. it just gets treated as a commodity by despotic regimes.
>Marx’s theory transcends the materiality of money
no it doesnt, anywhere. again, provide a source.
>capitalism’s central contradiction that Marx discovered, value must be rooted in labor
marx never "discovered" anything.
>Marx’s theory is not undermined by fiat money
yes it is, because we have no universal equivalent, and therefore, no money, to marx. also, you do realise that smith conceived of paper money in the identical way that marx did, and thats why i criticise them both? marx was just taking notes.
>Marx’s target is not gold itself but the capitalist ideology that naturalizes money as a "thing"
gold money has existed for milennia, and to marx, has transacted an equivalent value in all that time.
>Marx’s analysis of gold is not a defense of its necessity
yes it is. it is marx's "universal commodity"
>but a critique of capitalist mystification.
gold money has existed for milennia:
>The solution is not to return to a gold standard
who the fuck suggested that?
>but to abolish the religion of money
how? by working for big government instead of big business? lol
>money is always already a symbol of SNLT
yes by being *embodied* in a *commodity*
…. all this yapping. stop wasting everyone's time, please.

in australia 93% of gold goes toward making bullion or jewelry. only some of the remaining 7% ends up in electronics and other utilitarian objects… gold is much more useful to humanity in semiconductors and circuitboards than in gaudy bourgeois jewelry… this to me is proof that under capitalist society luxury commodities are produced and sold at exorbitant prices to prevent overproduction of actually useful means of production because that would cause the price of the means of production to go down from overproduction, which would make the means of production unprofitable, which would further demonstrate that capitalism is stupid and we already produce more than enough to sustain a socialist planned economy.

Am I off base?

File: 1745443830012-1.png (571.7 KB, 1677x1459, contents.png)

New(reprinted, free) Book!
Unequal Exchange and the Prospects of Socialism
<A searing indictment of global capitalism—and a blueprint for revolutionary solidarity from inside the imperial core.

>Originally published underground in 1986 and long unavailable in print, Unequal Exchange and the Prospects of Socialism is one of the clearest, most uncompromising anti-imperialist texts of the late 20th century. Written by the Communist Working Group (CWG) in Denmark, the book offers a sharp and accessible analysis of how global capitalism extracts value from the Global South through unequal exchange, and how that extraction shapes class complicity within the imperial core.


>This new edition from Iskra Books restores the original text—complete with Arghiri Emmanuel’s introduction—alongside a new prologue and epilogue by longtime anti-imperialist organizer and CWG member Torkil Lauesen, and a fresh preface by Henry Hakamäki and Nemanja Lukic. Together, these excellent additions situate the text in its historical moment while clarifying its relevance to the contradictions of global capitalism today.


>Far more than a critique, this book is a call to action, challenging revolutionaries in the Global North to confront their material position in the imperial order—and to take seriously the kind of politics demanded by real solidarity. Unapologetically internationalist and rooted in material analysis, Unequal Exchange and the Prospects of Socialism remains essential reading for anyone serious about dismantling empire from within.


https://www.iskrabooks.org/unequal-exchange
https://www.iskrabooks.org/_files/ugd/ec1faf_b615b36f535e4866a4a6b8c6a21fa516.pdf

dont think of it as bitcorn. think of as energy. Bitcorn is backed by mining. It cobsukes more electricity than austria at this point probably and thats what the lvt says gives it value.

>>2235588
>you dont see how youre contradicting terms?
they clearly are not saying that money-commodity is not a commodity, but that marx does not explicitly say its a commodity because its in the name so he doesn't need to. hes talking about 3 different things and how they develop into eachother. first there is money-commodity, which can be wheat or salt or iron or cattle, then there is the ideal money-commodity which historically was gold because of its properties, then with the transition to paper money we can see the beginning of the value it represents becoming detached from what it is represented by as the gold supply fluctuates from day to day, and finally when dramatic changes in the gold supply lead to the exchange ratio changing. the constant through all of these is the underlying snlt, not the token that represents it. first money is abstract, as a money-commodity, wheat for salt, that is directly proportional to the labor it represents, then this is negated with gold, its debasement, and printing of more dollars than gold in stock, but traded as gold for gold, and finally it becomes concrete, representing the abstract labor that controls society instead of particular labors, like gold mining, in this stage its labor for labor. money as a social relation becomes more real inversely proportional to its representation becoming more abstract. money becoming fiat is the confirmation of its symbolic nature already exposed in the gold stage. you can deny dialectics are valid, or you can critique marx on his dialectics, but you cant reinterpret marx as an empiricist and critique him on those grounds, because then you are not critiquing marx

>>2238996

Well in Marxist political economy it is possible for something to have exchange value without value (labour time) needing go into produce it: eg. land/space.

>>2238230
>do you know what an exchange ratio entails to marx? the comparison of its magnitude of value. this is inherent to its value.
You are confusing exchange value and value. This is because you haven't read Capital Volume III.

>>2238232
>>once gold is established as money, its symbolic role can take precedence
>a symbol of value *must* represent gold
>>the symbolic representation (money) becomes detached from the underlying value
>the gold itself is the money; a symbol of value cannot be "detached" from a value
>(…)
>>Marx’s analysis of gold is not a defense of its necessity
>yes it is. it is marx's "universal commodity"

<Throughout this work, I assume, for the sake of simplicity, gold as the money-commodity.

t. Marx. Hey would you look at that, this was already pointed out here: >>2235412

>>2238230
>its not an "arbitrary" rate, but a proportional rate.
Its both, its in proportion to an arbitrary amount of gold.
>not at all. labour power is always changing.
Not for "the same population". Read more carefully. The population can be assumed constant because there is not a direct correlation between population and gold, instead available gold to be mined is dependent on geography, which is arbitrary.
>marx is talking about inconvertible money
He talks about all three.
>fiat is not "paper money"
Inconvertable paper is fiat, convertable paper is bank notes, and he talks about both.
>source?
Thats the point of his discussion, that Money only appears to have value itself, but the value behind the fetish of Money is labor, that the value is not inherent to Money but a social symbol. The historical transition to gold being the basis for this observation, that it once directly corresponded to labor, and then that correspondence became abstracted to a ratio as it was necessary to continue its role in regulating exchange, which then becomes purely an abstract ratio disconnected from the materiality of the symbol but still relative to the labor supply.
>a symbol of value *must* represent gold
No, a convertible gold bank note must represent gold, by definition.
>he only speaks of gold - and critiques fiat
So he also speaks of fiat, unless you think he critiques it without saying it.
>the device he employs in the fetishism of commodities is to show how the fetishism is "real"
No, that is commodity fetishism. His point is to show the real basis behind the fetish, to show that the fetish does not contain value itself but acts as a mediator to compare other values by proportion in relation to its circulating supply.
>so exchange value is all bullshit then?
Exchange value also isn't price. Exchange value is the ratio, price is a quantity.
>and HOW is this value measured?
The price is a quantity, which is a portion of the total supply, and the aggregate price of all commodities of a type is also a portion of total supply, and that ratio is its exchange value, and that portion is equal to the portion of total labor, which is its value.

>lenin says very directly that imperialism is a transhistorical phenomenon.

This is even more egregious and deliberate than your misreading of Marx. What Lenin says very directly at the same time as mentioning historical imperialism is that:
>“general” disquisitions on imperialism, which ignore, or put into the background, the fundamental difference between socio-economic formations, inevitably turn into the most vapid banality or bragging, like the comparison: “Greater Rome and Greater Britain.” Even the capitalist colonial policy of previous stages of capitalism is essentially different from the colonial policy of finance capital.

When Marxists use the word Imperialism, its short hand for Capitalist Imperialism. Lenin is clearly talking about Capitalist Imperialism, which is specifically monopoly finance capital, which is not transhistorical, he called the paper "The Highest Stage of Capitalism" for a reason, and its not because the Imperialism he is talking about always existed. When I talk about Imperialism and the IMF and World Bank you can be sure I am also not talking about something transhistorical.

Even though Marx did not talk about Imperialism, its relationship to Marx's theory is the same as the discussion around fiat. Marx did not give us an isolated and static analysis of disparate facts as they existed in his time but a scientific model of how the economy changes through history with the tools to critique past and future economic systems. Lenins critique of Imperialism is about the specific appearance of monopoly capitalism, but the tools to see its emergence were already present in Marx.

Monopoly capitalism as financial Imperialism logically and naturally follows from Marx's observation that Capitalist competition consolidates into monopoly resulting in a tendency of the rate of profit to fall as new technology is introduced to the supply chain increasing the composition of organic capital leading to stagnation, turning capitalism from a progressive force that creates new productive forces into a regressive force that lives off rent and necessitates expansion into new territorial markets through wars of conquest. So, the same as the move to fiat, we can say that this was already accounted for by Marx. None of this is transhistorical, both Marx and Lenin were dialectical and historical materialists, nothing they discuss is ever transhistorical, its always historically contingent, all phenomena are shaped by their historical and material conditions. Marxism is not a fixed static dogma but a method of analysis. Since you are already concerned with rent maybe modern studies of Imperialism would be of interest to you and can clarify your misconceptions of Marx. I would recommend actually reading Lenin, but I know you would rather stick with your vapid banality. Sad to see that your declaration that you can be convinced rationally was just bait for you to generate a medium where you can continue to spread false ideas.


File: 1745481579295.jpg (20.82 KB, 600x405, 26wvib.jpg)

>>2239113
>You are confusing exchange value and value
explain the difference to me, since you are the expert who imagines they have read capital vol. 3 without even reading vol. 1 🤣
i already explained the difference between precapitalist and capitalist exchange:
[C-M-C] -> [M-C-M']
does this then negate the law of value?
>Throughout this work, I assume, for the sake of simplicity, gold as the money-commodity.
yes, and? to marx, money is still a commodity, so where is the rebuttal? lol
>>2239024
>they (you) are not saying what they (you) are saying
🤣 sure…
>first there is money-commodity, which can be wheat or salt or iron or cattle
>then there is the ideal money-commodity
>then with the transition to paper money
again, gold is an imperfect form of money, and paper money and fiat existed milennia ago. marx speaks about fiat currency negatively.
>becoming detached from what it is represented
lets go over this one more time:
<"Paper money is a token representing gold or money […] Only in so far as paper money represents gold, which like all other commodities has value, is it a symbol of value […] if the quantity of paper money issued be double what it ought to be, then, as a matter of fact, £1 would be the money-name not of 1/4 of an ounce, but of 1/8 of an ounce of gold [vol. 1, ch. 3]"
there is no "detachment".
>money becoming fiat
which marx expressly criticises as the debasement of money, remember?
>you cant reinterpret marx as an empiricist and critique him on those grounds
i never claimed marx was an empiricist you mongoloid. he fails because of his dialectics. and the most pathetic thing is that youre self-fagging this post in third person. get a life.

>>2239388
>The population can be assumed constant
its not about the size of a population, but their labour-power. 100 people can be more productive than 1000 people. its a relative factor, so money supply must also be relative.
>He talks about all three.
in reference to "paper money" he is very specific:
<"We allude here only to inconvertible paper money issued by the State and having compulsory circulation [vol. 1, ch. 3]"
>Inconvertable paper is fiat
no. "fiat" was based on silver coins in the roman empire. the form of fiat doesnt matter as long as its supply is managed by the state. "fiat" means "by decree".
>Money only appears to have value itself
money to marx is GOLD. are you saying that according to the LTV, gold lacks value?
>abstract ratio disconnected from the materiality of the symbol
one more time. follow along:
<"Only in so far as paper money represents gold, which like all other commodities has value, is it a symbol of value [vol. 1, ch. 3]"
>No, a convertible gold bank note must represent gold, by definition.
marx is speaking of INCONVERTIBLE notes!
>So he also speaks of fiat
yes, as i have shown many, many times!
<"Lawyers started long before economists the idea that money is a mere symbol, and that the value of the precious metals is purely maginary. This they did in the sycophantic service of the crowned heads, supporting the right of the latter to debase the coinage, during the whole of the middle ages, by the traditions of the Roman Empire and the conceptions of money to be found in the Pandects. […] it was a maxim of the Roman Law that the value of money was fixed by decree of the emperor. It was expressly forbidden to treat money as a commodity [.] some good work on this question has been done by G. F. Pagnini […] the second part of his work Pagnini directs his polemics especially against the lawyers. [ch. 2, footnote 11]"
this is his criticism of fiat currency.
>that is commodity fetishism
yes, which to marx is a real relation of value by commodity exchange, where private labours gain public intercourse.
>Exchange value is the ratio, price is a quantity.
you are really waffling here. explain the difference to me.
>This is even more egregious and deliberate than your misreading of Marx
what have i misread in marx?
>imperialism quote
you craftily missed the beginning of that passage, didnt you?
<"Colonial policy and imperialism existed before the latest stage of capitalism, and even before capitalism. Rome, founded on slavery, pursued a colonial policy and practised imperialism [imperialism, ch. 6]"
yet lenin qualifies between the different forms of imperialism:
<"Even the capitalist colonial policy of previous stages of capitalism is essentially different from the colonial policy of finance capital. [imperialism, ch. 6]"
so where am i wrong? imperialism, as a trend, is a transhistorical phenomenon.
>When Marxists use the word Imperialism, its short hand for Capitalist Imperialism
youre even wrong here - lenin is qualifying the difference between,
<"the capitalist colonial policy of previous stages of capitalism"
and,
<"the colonial policy of finance capital"
so you mean "finance capitalism".
>marx gave us "a scientific model"
🤣🤣🤣 i'll bite. what is "scientific" in marx's work?
>capitalism from a progressive force that creates new productive forces into a regressive force that lives off rent
capitalism was never "progressive" you dogmatic dingbat. what is "progressive" about the rape of the earth and its people?
>nothing they discuss is ever transhistorical
🤣🤣 so marx and engels never discuss the law of value existing in the past?
>your misconceptions of Marx
what misconceptions do i have of marx?
>you can continue to spread false ideas.
what false ideas? you make accusations but never back them up, because youre thrice, a coward, a liar, and illiterate.

>>2239568
<We have to begin with as precise and full a definition of imperialism as possible. Imperialism is a specific historical stage of capitalism.

<Advancing this definition of imperialism brings us into complete contradiction to K. Kautsky, who refuses to regard imperialism as a “phase of capitalism” and defines it as a policy

>>2239563
>>You are confusing exchange value and value. This is because you haven't read Capital Volume III.
You
>explain the difference to me, since you are the expert who imagines they have read capital vol. 3 without even reading vol. 1 🤣
What an odd response (very Muskesque). Why don't you directly answer that you have read the third Volume? Do you think that exchange value and value are the same magnitude for Marx in the third Volume? Why not directly say it?

Marx:
<Throughout this work, I assume, for the sake of simplicity, gold as the money-commodity.
You:
<yes, and? to marx, money is still a commodity, so where is the rebuttal?
Earlier ITT:
>>Marx’s analysis of gold is not a defense of its necessity
You:
>yes it is. it is marx's "universal commodity"
^Moving the goalposts.

>>2239568
>you are really waffling here. explain the difference to me.
you cant be serious. real marx understanding hours

>which marx expressly criticises as the debasement

>this is his criticism of fiat currency
what exactly do you think critique means lmao

I did an analysis on belle delphines bath water and it was funny.
Anyways belle delphine pays here friend to fill up bath water and sell it on the internet.
How do you calculate the surplus value that is extracted from her friend and which is the variable and constant capital?

>>2240766
Well ill just ai do the thinking heres the answer

>>2240784
and here is for hiring a technician to ibstall a mining rig and for a mcdonalds worker.
Anyways i think take away is the more labor intensive the commodity is the less profitable it is. Makes sense.

Boy oh boy oh boy, they're still going about this exchange value shit

File: 1745566726809.png (401.61 KB, 1200x480, dotih1ahg6w51.png)

>>2240788
>the more labor intensive the commodity is the less profitable it is
marx's point is opposite, since only "living labour" can create value.
>>2240176
calling it "imperialism" is theoretical baggage by lenin, since he happily cosigns it as "finance capitalism" or "monopoly capitalism" anyway (which are more acceptable terms). i only brought up lenin to show how the system of monopoly (rents) is a trend we see throughout history (which lenin also agrees with) - you dont need "historical materialism" to see the way that power works (history repeats itself and so on); the same way that fiat and paper money are old monetary orders, and not historically "progressive" of a capitalist development. this is part of the issue of the progressive vision in general - it doesnt see how "communism", or whatever you should call it, is always an immanence in every age, like how engels saw the early christians as proto-communist. this is why many anarchists (following foucault) naturally became historical nihilists of a sort - a bit like rousseau and his notion of noble savagery. likewise, baudrillard wished to escape value exchange (which he saw marx inevitably reproducing) by returning to symbolic exchange (or what in anthropology is called "gift economies"). kojin karatani and david graeber walk the finest line in this regard, by inverting marx's materialism for a superstructural primacy.

>>2240743
>you cant be serious
oh, so you literally cant explain the difference between price and exchange value to me? nice talking to you 🤣
>>2240472
>Why don't you directly answer that you have read the third Volume?
you never asked me, you accused me - should i be defensive? i ask you to educate me instead, yet you decline, why? (we all know why…)
>Do you think that exchange value and value are the same magnitude for Marx in the third Volume?
marx's formula for the value of a commodity in vol. 3 is:
>C = c + v + s (the same as smith's)
which are all elements of labour-time, calculated in the price of production. profit is made by selling a commodity at its value, which is thrice, c + v + s.
marx does not presuppose surplus value in pre-capitalist exchange (except in usurer's capital). we might say then that pre-capitalist exchange is:
>C = c + v
surplus is present in capital:
>C = c + v + s
[C-M-C] -> [M-C-M']
so as i have stated many times, capitalist exchange is oriented around the cost of production: cost-price (k) + profit (s). this doesnt disrupt the law of value however, since surplus is just surplus labour time.

File: 1745570392671.png (750 KB, 1033x2329, bel_dolpheen.png)


>>2240472
>>2240924
[C = c + v] is yet still an incomplete sum however.
calculation of value in vol. 1, ch. 1: [Q/P] = [SNLT]
in pre-capitalist exchange then, we have living and dead labour, but not constant and variable capitals. marx says that SNLT, or the magnitude of abstract labour power, is an inverse relation between labour's quantity (labour-time) and productivity. the calculation of this is as follows: [Q/P], which directly resembles capital's value composition: [v/c].
the more proper sum of pre-capitalist value:
>C = SNLT [Q/P]
<C = labour + means of production
surplus then becomes determined from this original fraction, but in the form of capital: [Q/P] -> [v/c]. the cost-price [k] of these capitals are: [c + v], which generate surplus [s] to give us the value of the capitalist commodity: [c + v + s]. surplus then is added from an original calculation of value: [Q/P].

File: 1745614213624.jpg (163.72 KB, 839x900, GPZgU8xbIAEoO4I.jpg)


>>2238993
>>2241845
>You thought ThirdWorldism (Sakaiism) was over?
>ThirdWorldism (Emmanuel) is here. RRRRound TWOooo…
>Look, I prepared memes!
Kill yourself, NA suburbanite cringelord.

>>2241873
Emmanuel isn't a third worldist.

>>2240788
> the more labor intensive the commodity is the less profitable it is
bro …

>>2240924
>marx's formula for the value of a commodity in vol. 3 is
Do you mean value or price? Marx does not change what value is between the volumes.


Unique IPs: 27

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta ] [ wiki / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]