/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2233242
I never said most people actually follow his idea, but he is the source of most "pop-history" about anarchist society's, specifically about pirates

>>2231981
>old west
damn it im mad at this fucking image again
>most crime was in the cities where ALL THE FUCKING PEOPLE WERE
no way!
>most violence was done during the ONGOING GENOCIDE
no way!

>>2233225

Sounds about right.

I've seen it many times where non-ancom anarchists characterize a historical example that is bassically "local militia + tribal council" as statelessness (in the sense of lack of government).

In other words, what ever other political ideology recognizes as defacto informal government, these kinds of anarchists try desperately to characterize as historical validation that what they desire can exist (even its extremely obvious they would hate to live in such kinds of societies and would scream "STATIST" when the tribal council punishes them for for not contributing a portion of the spoils of a hunt or running around naked high on mushrooms in the village center in broad daylight)

>>2233242

One question for you happen to know: Exactly did this particular dude's get zo popularized? What was happening around him that made it so?

>>2233242
>he's one of those 90s North American anarchists from AJODA and those types of post-left publications … most explicitly in the USA
That style of 90s "post-left anarchism" is a weird thing and seems like it has been forgotten. I don't know enough to talk about it except I've read from some people (who seem to know what they're talking about) that some of them would get into weird reactoid stuff, but maybe someone else can do a dive at some point. Also that was happening for a bit due to burnout and disillusionment after the anti-WTO protests but before the Iraq and Afghanistan wars generated the anti-war protest movement.

>>2212978
Many such cases. Maybe it would be prudent to exercise skepticism of prominent native voices and check to see if they've been outed as a pretendian yet.

>>2231350
Been meaning to watch this.
We should make a /leftypol/ movie list.

>>2239088
There's a whole website dedicated to the subject
https://pretendians.com

Many of the claimants are professional activists and/or academics. The latter were so widespread and unchallenged for decades, even though their claims would quickly be thrown in the trash if anyone bothered to do a little research.

>>2239088
That's pretty easy to tell, it's not even about looks, most indigenous people are just rural people who face similar but more extreme challenges as other poor rural communities in the US, but their people, they wear normal clothes and probably have similar views and insights as other "normies", anyone who ever exaggerates a mystical connection to nature is probably faking it

>>2231981
I can't speak for other regions, but the Wild West is interesting because it wasn't anywhere as "wild" as it is portrayed in the media. The main source of violence weren't "outlaws", but mostly organized violence in range wars also called cattle wars, where wealthy cattle barons would hire thugs and employees to steal or rob their competitors' cattle, or simply kill the cattle so their competitors would make less profit. These organized groups would then have violent shootouts with each other. That's where the spark of the Wild West comes from. It wasn't particularly wild/lawless though then the frontiers of any nation at the time and it ended pretty quickly within a generation.
It was actually Buffalo Bill and his circus act that popularized the myth of the gunfighter. He was a master of trick shooting and created a kind of carnival show that traveled from town to town, with plays about cowboys and indians combined with horse and gun tricks. It was enormously popular and we probably still feel its influence today with the idea of ​​the cowboy is part of the American identity, even though the vast majority of Frontier men and women were just trying to make a living and find a long-term opportunity that wasn’t available in the city, and were mostly just farmers.

>>2272153
put your gay nazi flag on so you can keep
normalizing colonialv violence as natural

>>2272165
What the fuck are you talking about?

>Throughout the 1960s and 70s, Rand developed and promoted her Objectivist philosophy through nonfiction and speeches,[96][97] including annual lectures at the Ford Hall Forum.[98] In answers to audience questions, she took controversial stances on political and social issues. These included supporting abortion rights,[99] opposing the Vietnam War and the military draft (but condemning many draft dodgers as "bums"),[100][101] supporting Israel in the Yom Kippur War of 1973 against a coalition of Arab nations as "civilized men fighting savages",[102][103] claiming European colonists had the right to invade and take land inhabited by American Indians,[103][104] and calling homosexuality "immoral" and "disgusting", despite advocating the repeal of all laws concerning it.[105]
Huh

>>2272153

This makes a lot of sense. Most of the time,the greatest enemy of a given bourgeois entity is another bourgeois entity.

Its only in moments pf deep crisis that this changes and the proletariat becomes a greater threat; whether or not the bourgeois state can actually repress them is another issue.

>>2216883
It's called a controlled opposition. It aims to keep disillusioned chvds from looking leftward for a chance to have them rebound back into the right proper later. They're encouraged to embarrass themselves with shit like "what if the child consents tho" and losing their money on crypto/AI/centralized social media so they'll have a layer of cringe shackling them from experimenting beyond the standard issue right wing consensus.

>>2276274
Diagnosis: sluggish schizophrenia

>>2276274
>opposing the Vietnam War and the military draft (but condemning many draft dodgers as "bums"),
My position

>>2238838
By that standard, would even the Greek polis be considered anarchist?

>>2212788
Libertarianism is just American-style fascism.

Some may believe the basic American nationalist mythology of America being founded by a bunch of rugged individualists who built the greatest country in the world with moxy, gumption and a love of freedom and they didn't want any tyrannical government getting in their way. Now everything is bad because the state stepped in and started going taxes and regulations which is limiting freedom and thus causing a bottleneck on moxy and gumption. This is still based heavily on American nationalism, but is still basic bitch neoliberalism in the end.

However, for a significant number of people, it goes quite a bit deeper than that. By their reckoning, the reason why the white race rose to dominance over the world was a commitment to liberty and what they figure to be various primordial forms of capitalism stretching back to the state of nature. What's more, capitalism itself is this primordial force which, if properly followed, will sort all peoples, systems and ideas into their proper place. Which is to say: white supremacist conservatism with aristocratic decadence characteristics. It's essentially a way of achieving fascist ends "naturally" through non-state means.

Conversely, non-whites and various other undesirables are seen as wards of the state. They are a people who have risen above their station through the artificial ploys of liberal intervention into the capitalist market's way of sorting all peoples into their natural place. Communists are the arch enemies of this natural order and anything which seems wildly out of place and in contradiction to that supposed natural order is essentially a form of communism to this sort of person.

Now, it's not just self-professed Libertarians who believe this ideology. This is essentially the core of modern American conservative ideology in a nutshell. But the Libertarians absolutely embody it, at least outside of a couple of grillpill dopes they tricked into thinking they were moderate because they offer a sort of "third way."

>>2308372
Same anon here, I also wanted to address these posts: >>2229409 >>2231981

One of the things you'll notice about nearly all "anarchist" societies claimed by Libertarians and ancaps is that they were all fucking slave societies. Meaning that they could not possibly have been truly stateless or the slaves would have just revolted and left. Medieval Iceland was a great example of this. It was a loose confederation of petty barons who ran their own petty fiefdoms centered around slave farms where they routinely worked their slaves to death in the fields so they wouldn't have to feed them over the winter. That's the Libertarian and Ancap idea of "anarchy."

>>2308372
I hate you uighurs for making me defend Libertarianism, but no one who favored Manifest Destiny would follow ideals about Libertarianism. They literally wanted more government control and state power. Libertarianism as we know it is incredibly modern, emerging around the 1960s and following in the coattails of Ronald Reagan. They formed a faction in the Republican Party that was often at odds with the old right and sometimes even with neo-conservatives. but they still persisted, only recently have they started having problems with the actual party

>>2308377
no coincidece, as losurdo points out in liberalism the counter history. the people who were most enthusiastic about liberty were pro-slavery

>>2308393
>but no one who favored Manifest Destiny would follow ideals about Libertarianism
I hate Libertarians for being retards without any exceptions.

>>2308452
A Russian Jew who went to America in her 30's and had no impact on wider politics in her lifetime

>>2212788
>Socially degenerate
I know what you are

>>2308396

I have said elsewhere that liberty & slavery are not really complete opposites; They both advocate for private ownership of people, they merely change who the owner is (oneself vs. some other entity, respectively).

>>2308308

I think the difference for that kind of anarchist is mostly the formality of the greek polis disqualified it, if not pure vibes.

I can't say for sure though, because their way of thinking (AND feeling AND ethics too I might add) is deeply alien to me

>>2272153
>He was a master of trick shooting and created a kind of carnival show that traveled from town to town, with plays about cowboys and indians combined with horse and gun tricks. It was enormously popular
So basically a turn of the 19th/20th century version of gunkata entertainment.

>>2212788
Liberarianism is a fan fiction where you pretend you're going to be more economically successful than the people you hate and rule them by denying them resources. It's not a serious ideology. No country is libertarian except countries in a perpetual state of civil war like Pakistan.
Even corporations want to exist in a country with basic socialist policy. See public education, government funded infrastructure like road, power, water, etc. Basic laws to make things like putting lead in the air illegal.
It also ignores that the free market often has toxic externalized costs & bad game theory for society as a whole. Take pollution for instance. If everyone is playing a game, you can take from the middle of the table and get a free resource. Why wouldn't they do so? That's how you get rivers that are so polluted they literally start on fire, because the optimal move in that game is to take from that centralized resource by polluting.

>>2308372
Yes basically. Fiscal conservatism in the USA is more about hurting groups you don't like than actually balancing the budget. Being able to refuse to serve a customer is more about being able to refuse groups you hate, than personal freedom.

>>2308393
No one said that Libertarians follow the actual ideology of the Manifest Destiny period. They simply idealize the Old West as essentially a functional Libertarian society regardless of if that is actually true.

Like I said, these same people prop up medieval Iceland as an example of functional anarchy even though it was a society of petty slaver barons.

>>2272153
>the vast majority of Frontier men and women were just trying to make a living and find a long-term opportunity that wasn’t available in the city, and were mostly just farmers.
That's how it's portrayed in movies. If everyone was a gunslinger they wouldn't be special.

>>2343056
I've seen a few "White Hat Cowboy" movies and the government is portrayed as almost non-existent in those movies. It's like slasher films where there is no police. Frontier towns were protected by the US military and in some cases those towns were built by the government. many towns that were built by the settlers disappeared within a few years of their founding and people opted for better planned cities instead. To make another analogy, it's like the American obsession with the Minutemen, even though they played a crucial role in the early Revolutionary War. It was the Continental Army that defeated the British and Won the war. The former however has been completely mythologized and turned into a national myth that even Western leftists believe in

>>2308372
"Fascist ends" were basic conservatism in the late 1800s, "fascist means" are the reason why they are demonized now.

>>2343107
You Uyghurs make it ten times harder to discuss and argue against actual Fascism

>>2343091

I am not at all surprised to hear people abandoned unplanned, spontaneous settler towns in favour of government planned towns.

Yet another libertarian masturbation fantasy destroyed.

Because the gop wanted to keep up with the times back in tbe 90’s and decided to adopt libertarianism. It helps that big business lobbies for it because they can get less restrictions

>>2343091
> To make another analogy, it's like the American obsession with the Minutemen, even though they played a crucial role in the early Revolutionary War. It was the Continental Army that defeated the British and Won the war.
Once again I feel you're mischaracterizing things. If there is anything anyone would know about the revolutionary war is that George Washington led the continental army to victory, famously crossing the Delaware, and that's why they made him president.

>>2343263
They were a faction within the party, but not always well-liked, and they knew it. There is a whole book about their alleged discrimination within the party.
>We are in favor of: guns, drugs, fast cars, free love, a sound dollar, and a strong military with spiffy uniforms.
This did not go down well with the Christian elements, the Moralists and even the Nationalists

>>2212788
Libertarianism describes how human freedom looks. Not our fault that you have bootlicking flowing in your veins.

>>2212788
I have never met a libertarian with socially liberal politics. There is no market (ironically) for that stuff

>>2351502

Strange, nearly every single one I have encountered was that way, save for one who ditched libertarianism pretty quickly (for both societal and economic reasons since he was christian)

>>2231194
Well then they need to start explaining why exactly "Nature" never took its course and from that point on they can either realize their understanding of the world is retarded and wrong or they have to jump to It's The Jews and a bunch of new spirituality garbage, literally no other option for them.

>>2351502
Personally I am disgusted with "free sex" and I have ditched half-way quite many books which I would have otherwise enjoyed (Larsson, Heinlein, Ayn Rand, whatever) when I stumbled upon such tropes. It's like worshipping monkeys in a rut to me; thank you very much. But I don't have the slightest intention nor the inclination to forbid willing individuals in engaging in it - as long as you don't try to have "free sex" with me kek.
It's like - you can establish as many communes as you want as long as I am out of it. I will join you in crushing any attempts trying to forbid you from establishing communes (or having free sex) but I will try to crush YOU if try to force others into these activities.

>>2231194
wdym when the European explorers sailed the world they found ancap native tribes all over.

>>2352113

Basically you are kind of degeneracy enabler.

But, hey fair to you, I openly hate freedom, and in exactly the way you mean it. I think its one of the most disgusting concepts man has ever come up with.

I am truly your totalitarian enemy.

aren't libertarians just the latest iteration of proudhonists

every few decades retards reinvent proudhonism, and then the different groups of proudhonists under different names fight each other online (see eg anarchists vs libertarians)

Italian Brainrot vs The Backrooms vs Analog Horror

libertarians are literally just liberals, both words have the same root, libertarians just take individualism via individual freedom to the maximum degree. ancaps are the flat earthers of political theory and nobody takes them serious. sorry this is so confusing as to why a country rooted in locke and jeffersonialism would manifest such a range of opinion-ideology, not rocket science