[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password(For file deletion.)

Not reporting is bourgeois


File: 1746122505249-0.png (1.54 MB, 600x1200, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1746122505249-1.png (660.48 KB, 600x600, ClipboardImage.png)

 

This thread is for the discussion of cybercommunism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and creators. Drama belongs in /isg/

Reading
Towards a New Socialism by Paul Cockshott and Allin Cottrell: http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
Brain of the Firm by Stafford Beer
Cybernetic Revolutionaries by Eden Medina
Cybernetics: Or the Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine and The Human Use of Human Beings (1st edition) by Norbert Wiener
Economic cybernetics by Nikolay Veduta
People's Republic of Walmart by Leigh Phillips and Michal Rozworski
Red Plenty by Francis Spufford
Economics in kind, Total socialisation and A system of socialisation by Otto Neurath (Incommensurability, Ecology, and Planning: Neurath in the Socialist Calculation Debate by Thomas Uebel provides a summary)

Active writers/creators
Sorted by last name
>Paul Cockshott
https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ)
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/
https://twitter.com/PaulCockshott (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/PaulCockshott)
>Cibcom (Spanish)
https://cibcom.org/
https://twitter.com/cibcomorg (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/cibcomorg)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA)
>Tomas Härdin
https://www.haerdin.se/tag/cybernetics.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w)
>Elena Veduta
http://www.strategplan.com/en/about/veduta.php
Various videos on YouTube but no channel of her own
>Dave Zachariah
https://www.it.uu.se/katalog/davza513
One video on Paul Cockshott's channel

Podcasts
>General Intellect Unit
Podcast of the Cybernetic Marxists
http://generalintellectunit.net/

Previous threads in chronological order
https://archive.is/uNCEY
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
https://archive.ph/uyggp
https://archive.is/xBFYY
https://archive.ph/Afx5a
https://archive.is/kAPvR
https://archive.is/0sAS2
https://archive.is/jXivP
399 posts and 77 image replies omitted.

>>2427333
there's also military planning to consider. some of the DEP stuff goes out the window the moment you have to deal with spies

>>2425227
thanks anon

>>2421610
Here is a rough translation of the podcast.

>>2426361
NTA but it's animated and has a resolution of 758x2408 per frame but images no longer expand completely unless you open them in a new tab

>>2429464
did you translate this yourself or by machine? I'm guessing by machine due to some amusing mistranslations
>svenska enkronor Swedish 1 SEK coins
<Swedish unicorns
>Marx
<Marcus
>5000 spänn 5000 SEK
<05:00 bucks
>det här kopplar this connects
<this disconnects
>fix:a korgar fixed baskets
<fixer-uppers
still probably good enough to get the gist

INDEP put out a post-conference chat video.

My own thoughts on the INDEP conference: I found it extremely superficial. Everything was so short and nothing in-depth. Maybe they had some deeper discussions after the presentations, but only the speeches are online. And where are the slides?!?

I hope next time, they film everything with a triple setup:
1. one camera fixed on the speaker's platform
2. one camera fixed on blackboard/slides
3. one camera moving around
You only need one person for this, because camera one and camera two are really just fixed in place. Audio should be directly recorded from the speaker's microphone, but again, redundancy is important because the speaker might move away from the mic or their might be an interjection from the audience.

>>2429823
>And where are the slides?!?
the slides are on the website. but not all of them: https://www.indep.network/recordings-of-talks-at-indeps-first-conference/
>You only need one person for this
you need someone to edit it too, or to operate OBS or something similar while the talk is going on, cutting between the cameras
>Audio should be directly recorded from the speaker's microphone, but again, redundancy is important because the speaker might move away from the mic or their might be an interjection from the audience
totally agree

>Louis-Maxime Joly – Local currencies and inter-community monetary federalism
market socialism. at least it demonstrates yet again that calls for "decentralized" planning amount to exchange
why do INDEP orgas think it's a good idea to keep bringing anti-planning talks to a conference about planning?

>Alfredo Olguin – An Applied Perspective on the Economic Calculation Debate using neural networks.

more AI nonsense

>Ferdia O’Driscoll – Beyond the Misconception of Socialism as a “Planned” Economy

points out that we have imprecise language. which is true. the notion that we don't agree on what "the market" is is also interesting

>Sophie Elias-Pinsonnault – Bringing social reproduction in: informality, care work and provisioning

basically it's difficult to model care work for the purposes of planning, which I agree with. for some sectors we can do very little except assign a budget in terms of abstract labor. sometimes it is sensible to rationalize care work and sometimes it is not

>Alejandro Ruiz and Julia Zimmerman – Information System Boundaries in Democratic Economic Planning

there's no slides for this so it's hard to follow

>Gabriel Wainio – Materializing Information Sovereignty Between Earth and Cloud

mostly concerned with energy efficiency of the IT infrastructure for planning

>Ferdia O’Driscoll – Understanding Rewards in Socialism using Self-Determination Theory

philosophizing around motivation. rewards do be tricky. oh and more whining about hierarchies

>Audrey Laurin-Lamothe – Planning from care

the bullshit jobs statistics is interesting

>Fikret Adaman and Pat Devine – Social Participatory Planning on the Question of Climate Crisis

parecon is the solution to the climate crisis. nothing new here. they think planning can be done via meetings. planning is to be done in aggregate, despite this being a bad idea (as demonstrated by Cockshott)

>Johannnes Buchner – Strategic Triangle of AI for Ecological Economic Planning in a Circular Economy

terrible audio. quite a bit of irrelevant AI stuff. he seems to be referring to figures that are not in the slides. kinda meandering. the bit about viewing the economy as a game where "pre-products" (inputs?) are replaced with products (outputs I guess) seems to just be a needless discretization of technical coefficients

>Alex Creiner – Problems With the Money Signal and the Necessity for Planning in Kind

finally someone who actually understands control theory. he seems to have slides but they're not on the INDEP website. goes over his take on Marx' reproduction schema and his solution to it, based on the work of Morishima. he has a series of videos on YouTube about this
https://www.youtube.com/@TexTalksSometimes
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/0a1w2hb91a
^ this is the thing he uses for slides >>2412231

>Simon Tremblay-Pepin – Meet me in the middle? Democratic planning from macro to micro and back

very meta. points out that we can't just have a single unit of account. emphasizes non-commensurability. also we need an institution to talk about our institutions

>Sam Bliss and Adam Wilson- The unplanned magic of actually existing non-market economies

I liked this talk. no slides. talks about small self-sufficient economies, gift economies, mutual aid food networks etc
attempting to mimic market economics in non-market economies leads to all kinds of weird stuff
giving food to people is cool and nice
personally I think there's a lot of foods we could just give away. but perhaps not foods like meat

>Leone Castar – Learning to See and Meet Human Needs in a Postcapitalist World

we can't regulate what we can't see. what we see affects what we do, so we have to be careful about what we measure and how we use those measurements. lingers too long on the transit example
TL;DW: optimization is easy to get wrong. it's better to iteratively improve on things

>Anders Sandström – Adding realism to the Participatory Economy Model

the bit about disaggregation only being necessary when the costs of the constituent parts are different from the aggregate is interesting. unfortunately it seems he's talking about prices, not the actual inputs. besides this it's again just parecon

>Mitchell Szczepanczyk and Jason Chrysostomou – Annual Participatory Planning

oh no the slides use the corporate artstyle!
progress report on some parecon prototypes. it's pretty cool to see them making progress, even if I am skeptical of some specific points in parecon

>Dominique Arsenault – Industrial Commons and Democratic Economic Planning

a lot of anarchist stuff. points out that free software and open hardware are commons

>Mitchell Szczepanczyk – Computer Simulations of Participatory Planning

continuation of the previous talk
the IFM stuff sounds like a better way of dealing with the coordination problem than the previous IFBs
>production functions
boo

>Walther Zeug and Jakob Heyer – Holistic economic accounting for a cybernetic planned economy

no slides, but it sounds like the same three-dimensional prices that he's talked about before

>Jean-François Colomban – From the Socialist Calculation Debate to Ecological Economics

about the works of Karl William Kapp. haven't seen Kapp mentioned ITT. he seems to agree with Neurath

>>2430795
>>Alfredo Olguin – An Applied Perspective on the Economic Calculation Debate using neural networks.
>more AI nonsense
It's not nonsense. He got real-world experience. It's just that everybody now says "AI" instead of "Machine Learning". (And I just call ML "statistics".)

Placing link in relevant thread in case the OP with the link gets
https://www.marxists.org/subject/left-wing/gik/1930/index.htm
deleted for low effort OP

Recent developments in AI make me question my market based socialist views in favor of this science fiction communism.

>>2426361
>>2429537
another fact people sleep on is a gif is less optimized than a soundless mp4 and will usually be bigger

what is the problem of using ai for crunching numbers ?.

>>2431836
most codecs are than gif, yes. especially ones that have had almost 40 years of development over it. but an mp4 doesn't work the same way in the browser. it's got a seek bar and stuff. it doesn't minimize again when you click it. completely unusable

>>2431826
why did AI of all things make you finally snap

>>2431855
>>2431826
anon have you read TANS?

>>2425227
finally watched this earlier tonight. very good.

total MD death

>>2433539
Why? They aren't exploited and they don't exploit… The problem (one of them lol) with the NHS from what I've heard is that while it's a single payer model, the supplies the NHS buys are from the market, where they charge the system way more than what medicine/products are actually worth, which is a big gimmie for big pharma. Sort of like how the Pentagon pay $100 for $1 bolts.

Revolutionary republicans: We don't need kings and nobles. Us citizens can rule society just fine.

Old socialists: The working class will directly administer civil society.

Modern people: Damn this shit is hard we need an AI God to do it for us.

>>2438716
Stalin literally lamented about how this shit was hard and how all the incentives were perverse and he was an old Bolshevik. There's a reason Kantorovich won the Stalin prize.

>>2438716
>Damn this shit is hard we need an AI God to do it for us.
numerical linear algebra isn't AI its just doing a massive spreadsheet anon.

File: 1755633937327.png (488.8 KB, 750x410, linalg.png)


>>2433539
another banger on cockshott's channel

What's the best Cockshott book to start? I've watched dozens of his videos, now I'd like to dig a little deeper.

>>2433539
>total MD death

did you even watch the video or did you just want to say something edgy

>>2439937
Well Arguments for Socialism is his easiest, most accessible book and has all his core ideas. You'll be familiar with it if you've seen his videos cause plenty of Cockshott's videos are just little pieces of his books or blog posts. And Towards a New Socialism is more math heavy but his most iconic text.

>>2431826
What's sci fi about it?

Tom O'Brien has put out another video
>Unifying Marxism & Cybernetics

>>2275916
you must be a euro, the closest thing to that in the states you can actually study is systems (or even industrial) engineering

>>2440516
not gonna watch this trash, cybernetics is a bourgeois pseudoscience

>>2440889
if you watch it you'll be treated to Tom absolutely butchering Marx, twisting Marxism into being pro-exchange. he's become the thread's favorite hate target lately
>control theory is pseudoscience
if you want good regulation of society then it behooves you to learn what makes for good regulation

>>2440889
>anything i don't like is bourgeois pseudoscience.

>>2440516
marxism already implies a correct understanding of the sciences, why is every youtuber some retarded grifter on god

>>2440940
>good regulation of society
oh yeah definitely what communism and the proletarian class struggle are about, Efficiency(tm)

>>2433539
>>2438612
>all the bourgeois no matter how small or poor benefit in some way from capitalism thus have a stake in maintaining it (what relation to capital clearly means despite pseuds thinking its about only owning a literal store)
>capitalism itself can only be sustained by the exploitation of the worker, proletarian or not
<omg whats wrong with le petit bourgeois (from my personal moral pov) :((((
retard

File: 1755836268358.png (55.33 KB, 1434x206, Gy4Gd4DWUAAAvVh.png)

why is cockshott lowkey hitler

>>2441871
efficiency is important, but that's not my point. you need control theory in order to bring any given system (society) near some set point (decent QoL within environmental bounds). sometimes that may mean a departure from "efficiency". for example, we may keep reserves of strategic resources even though doing so is "inefficient", because it makes the system more robust

>>2442007
because hes british

>>2442141
angry Scottish noises

>>2442007
>anything that goes against Leninist dogma is literally hitler

>>2442007
nah man, cockshott's whole point is that elections are outdated and a dead-end

Third part of the series of vids about British doctors is out on Cockshott's channel. IMHO the most interesting part is about the history of doctors going on strike in Britain (12:48 to 14:27).

>>2442007
Electoralism puts an aristocracy in power and is very well suited to bourgeois class rule

>INDEP Talk with Roger Arevalo - The Management Consultant’s Guide to Seizing the Means of Production

>>2446754
very waffly. but it's fun to hear him point out that the TPS is not the end-all-be-all

>>2446754
Guy sounds like a wanker (labor time accounting is a trauma response hurrdurr). He mentions the works of Eliyahu M. Goldratt. We actually had threads for reviews of management books (back in 2019 on 8chan/bunkerchan) and Goldratt's stuff was among those books. I have no idea if anyone archived those threads. Anyway, a bias of Goldratt's stories was that he really assumed the bottlenecks to be stubborn and stick in the same place for days, whereas in reality you really can get to the point that the bottleneck switches positions after a few minutes. By the way, Goldratt got into legal trouble for making false optimality claims about his management software.

>>2440889
>not gonna watch this trash
why announce your intention to not do something?
>cybernetics is a bourgeois pseudoscience
why? elaborate.

>>2447108
Roger is a contrarian, but at least he admits that he is
>Anyway, a bias of Goldratt's stories was that he really assumed the bottlenecks to be stubborn and stick in the same place for days, whereas in reality you really can get to the point that the bottleneck switches positions after a few minutes
hence why you want inventory as a safety margins. the TPS people are autistically against that

>>2447210
Lean production is for overall low inventory, not zero inventory. It's also not really a goal to cut inventory equally in every place (that would be autistic), but to cut inventory in the big picture. Achieving this might involve actually increasing inventory in some spots or even creating inventory spots where there aren't any currently.

My impression of Tom O'Brien is that he really has a very one-sided and extreme view of DA POWAH OF LEAN because he just read texts introducing it and he stays in the hype zone of the early convert for longer than a manager would, simply because he is not a manager. Without the real-world check, you have to be much smarter and very self-critical to learn at the same pace as a dumb person trying it out for real.

>>2448076
>Lean production is for overall low inventory, not zero inventory. It's also not really a goal to cut inventory equally in every place (that would be autistic), but to cut inventory in the big picture. Achieving this might involve actually increasing inventory in some spots or even creating inventory spots where there aren't any currently.
this is still ass-backwards. your need for inventory depends on how accurate your model of the production line is, and how much variance (noise) there is. if you know what a bunch of work stations in a production line will do, and the probability that they will keep on doing that, then you should be able to work out the appropriate level of inventory so as to keep costs down while maintaining steady throughput. if inventory is cheap enough then using more of it is no harm, so long as you have proper regulation
one question I find myself asking is how can this lean stuff actually be instrumentalized? how is the necessary politics brought into it?
>he really has a very one-sided and extreme view of DA POWAH OF LEAN
his zeal is very strong, yes. the same goes with his views on Marx, since they too are detached from reality


Unique IPs: 31

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]