/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2269650
>He cites Marx attending physics lectures and living in England for most of his life as proof that Marx's exposition in Capital is thoroughly of a mechanical materialist and not dialectical materialist character, and that the debates in the 1920s Soviet union mistakenly attributed Dietzgen to Marx leading to dialectical materialism becoming a state doctrine in the USSR by mistake.
Got Doc Cock to answer: He rejects Dietzgen's dialectics but embraces Mao's dialectics

>>2276441
Ok, but there is a difference between wage theft which is legal under capitalism (surplus value) and wage theft which is not. It turns out the kind which is not is also rampant, and it is interesting to note, because marx's analysis is focused on surplus value, not on these other, additional forms of wage theft. The point is that the worker is even more screwed over by capitalism than marx says.

>>2276584
>marx's analysis is focused on surplus value, not on these other, additional forms of wage theft
they're also surplus value extraction. but I see what you mean. sometimes Porky thinks certain kinds of exploitation is too much
>The point is that the worker is even more screwed over by capitalism than marx says
I'm relatively sure Marx brings up in Capital similar examples of capitalists trying to pay their workers even less than their nominal wage

Could someone archive the W P Cockshott AMA thread and post the link here?
Link to the thread:
>>2276372

Archived the Paul Cockshott AMA
https://archive.is/53xsw
The link should be working in a few minutes

>none of the shitposts were answered
Not surprising
I was going to ask him, which touhou character would you hang out with or lead cyber-Communism, if he did.

>>2276517
look what you did mods, he was all confused like a lost black child out in the open.

>>2276586
Didn't see this request but here you go: >>2276598

This was disappointing.

>>2276617
He answered my question about black markets so I'm quite content

>>2276582
maoist cockshott confirmed

>>2276635
And you consider the answer satisfactory? The way I understood your question was emergence of commodity money, not wheather people will buy bags of sugar off each other.

>>2276725
Your interpretation is correct, my concern is the emergence of a specific type of product as a substitute for money, that could be a way for black markets of illegal substances, prostitution, bribery to exist.

>>2276733
People will barter if there are shortages addressed by limits per head instead of by price increases. Cockshott isn't much concerned about bartering because the TANS model got price increases for when there are shortages. Paying bribes and paying for prostitution will still happen in the following form: People will demand that you use your consumption vouchers to obtain things they want and that you give them these things.

>have too many other discussion threads ongoing on other media.

Where? Did he do Q&As on other forums!?

wait so are we really in the era of neo-socialist uprising?

>>2276782
probably behind on his xeetposting

Sickblst fred was a dogshit thread btw. Stoped reading but literally none of the questions are about any of his work, just social media addicts dogging for 'takes'.
Pathetic site. Really has gone down the drain.

>>2277331
>but literally none of the questions are about any of his work
Half the questions were directly related to his work.

<economic planning in an age of climate crisis
Apparently there's a free version to share somewhere?

>>2277331

>"what do you think is the best strategy for revolution??"


LMAO

What is the cybercommunist solution for allocating workers to specific positions? Should the labour market work pretty much as it does today, with hiring at the level of individual enterprises, workers competing for the more prestigious jobs, and those who cant find anything good forced to work the shit ones? Are pay differentials used to attract people into less desirable positions?

>>2281242
Also a flipside question, what about situation where you want to motivate highly in-demand workers to put in more hours? Like for example if there is a shortage of doctors, do you raise their pay to do overtime, so that now 1 hour of their labour != 1 hour of general labour.

>>2277377
it's ok anon is just going to slander and make shit up

>>2281242
>hiring at the level of individual enterprises
No.
>workers competing for the more prestigious jobs,
Yes.
>and those who cant find anything good forced to work the shit ones?
Yes. Though I'd like to have limits on shit work conditions:
a) classified so bad that we plan around this, so this is not needed for the plan and nobody is forced to do these
b) classified bad so only justified for core use-value goals if all other means are exhausted
Giving absolute guarantees is hard to impossible, but giving relative protection is easy. Like this: If you are in a relatively more protected group, you are not drafted for something until drafting opportunities from less protected groups are used up. For example, a guarantee to never force vegetarians to work anywhere in the chain from slaughtering to serving meat is much harder to plan for than just giving a relative guarantee, meaning we look for meat eaters first to fill these positions. We can also give relatively stronger drafting protection to people who have spent more time in draft mode.

>>2281417
>Like for example if there is a shortage of doctors, do you raise their pay to do overtime
Yes. First move is to offer more overtime at all without higher hourly pay and see how well that works. There can also be a work-time account that allows for more free time taken later if one works longer now. But this cannot solve all tight situations, so hourly pay probably has to go up a bit. (By the way Cockshott was asked once on Twitter how to solve this and answered Die Mauer 😬)

We can have a regulation for forcing people to do some amount of hours when society is really in a tight situation, but this should be for activating part-timers to do more and not extend the normal work day for people already in full employment. Forcing people makes production very predictable. But how can ordinary people be the masters of their own lives if they are constantly forced to do this or that? The solution is to force a lot of people while keeping low the amount of weekly forced hours per person. And let's throw weak relative guarantees at everything. They make life more bearable and are trivial to implement.

>>2281242
a central system for job postings would be useful. saying much more than that would be infantile
>>2281417
train more physicians

>>2282277
>train more physicians
the cuban solution, nice

>>2281603
>(By the way Cockshott was asked once on Twitter how to solve this and answered Die Mauer 😬)
I don't get it. What does this mean?

>>2283206
I am guessing he meant the Berlin Wall, but I am not sure how it relates. Maybe what he was answering is how to prevent the brain drain?

>>2283235
Restrictions on emigration look like an inevitable result of a classless society co-existing with a capitalist one. Whoever would end up in the upper classes of the capitalist society thanks to their high level of skill would personally benefit from emigration. This emigration would happen at the cost of the society that allowed these would-be-emigres to gain these skills through social programs of education, child-rearing etc.

Could someone explain to me how does method of material balances differ from input-output model?

>>2283296
>material balances
actually operationalized
>input-output
juggling with figures
incidentally, Bazarov and Groman were criticized by Lenin for being Machists

wttmbd?
wtf is ooe?
is floating point even math?

>>2284723
average CISC fan vs average RISC enjoyer

>>2284723
I'm stupid, explain what she means

>>2284881
cpus are weird hacked together beasts basically, there are some terrible things possible only on certain cpus due to features being abused

>>2284884
i asked chat gpt to explain her quote and it said (short version)

>That's a great quote—it's funny because it's almost true. At face value, machine code is the lowest-level, actual instructions that a CPU executes. So how could it be a "suggestion"? The answer lies in CPU microarchitecture—the internal implementation of how a processor executes instructions. Modern CPUs don't necessarily execute machine instructions in the exact order they're written. They reorder instructions to improve performance (e.g. avoid waiting on slow memory), execute multiple instructions at once using superscalar execution units, and run ahead on instructions that aren't waiting on the results of others. So even though your machine code says "do A, then B," the CPU might internally do B first if it's more efficient. When the CPU reads a machine instruction, it decodes it into smaller internal operations (micro-ops or µops). So, machine code is a high-level abstraction for what actually happens under the hood. CPUs often guess (speculate) what instructions will be needed next and execute them before knowing for sure. If the guess is wrong, the CPU throws away the results. This means instructions might be "executed" before they even should be, from a program logic standpoint. Machine code targets the ISA (e.g., x86, ARM). The CPU implements that ISA, but how it does that is up to its microarchitecture. Two CPUs (say, Intel and AMD) can execute the same machine code but handle it differently under the hood. As you go deeper into CPU performance optimization, you realize that tiny details (like instruction alignment, cache hits, or branch prediction) have huge performance impact. Some "equivalent" machine code sequences run wildly differently depending on hardware. So even though you're giving the CPU specific instructions, you're really influencing behavior indirectly. Hence: "machine code is just a polite suggestion."

>>2284682
You have not explained anything.

>>2284991
see again >>2269963
just try to work a similar problem and you should see the issue. this isn't to say MBP is good
>>2284881
CISC machines like x86 don't actually execute the instructions given to them directly. a modern x86 CPU is actually RISC inside, and there's a translation layer inbetween. Ken Shirrif has examples of this on his blog where he looks at how the microcode for various instructions worked at the silicon layer for some older Intel CPUs

>>2284682
Look at the pdf you posted. Does it contain an actual comparison of input-output analysis and material balances? Does it even describe any of the two? I can ctrl-f Bazarov and get a paragraph, half of which is empty waffle.

Are you a serious person or is your knowledge of economics and math limited to slogans.

>>2286169
less posting more doing the actual math

>>2283206
he meant watch Aeon Flux
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8ivq1l

Does technical coeficient also include machine detoriation, or just direct production input? For example would bread have steel as its input in input-output matrx if the ovens require steel?

>>2289062
Depends on how detailed your matrices are. Cockshott's basic toy programs have steel as an input, but the idea is that ALL products are a cell in the matrix, so for a certain type of bread you would have a certain type of machine as input, which would have a certain types of components (steel housing for example) as an input, which itself would have a certain type of steel (e.g. 304 stainless steel) as an input, which itself would have certain types of machines and material as its inputs, and so on and so forth. Under capitalism, these inputs are 'trade-secrets' though so we only get a rough idea about the reality of production. The big idea is that labor is the single common denominator.

My understanding is that deterioration is 'baked in' to the input based on the expected lifetime of machinery. For example if a machine is expected to bake a billion loaves of bread before it craps out, then the input for that loaf of bread is one-billionth of that machine. Often though, most of the components in the machine are fine, it's just one part that gets broken and needs to be replaced. Labor and parts to maintain the machine (a reality for using machines) is an input as part of the production of bread, but a different variable from 'normal' operation, as to collect data for future production of machines. Keep in mind all these inputs are estimates. They can and will fluctuate over time, giving better data to inform planned production.

>>2289539
Really Cockshott doesn't go far enough tbh because he doesn't consider non-labor time as a variable in production. For example it takes the dough to make bread about an hour or an hour and a half to rise. I'd be interested in how this could be applied to his econophysics, especially with markets as indicators for the production of consumer goods.

>>2289062
Depends. An input-output matrix shows the direct relations in horizontal and vertical lines and for indirect inputs and indirect outputs your eyeballs have to ping-pong around in the matrix. The matrix is always about a time interval. You can abstract away some inputs. Just like when you are working with a recipe in a kitchen, the recipe doesn't state the tools. If you are thinking short term and considering only a modest increase in output, you can use the matrix and these simplifications are unlikely to cause much of a problem. More intensive use of unaccounted resources is not much of an issue if the intensity increases only a bit. But with planning for longer and longer terms, invisible givens have to be turned into visible givens, and some tools have to be treated as ingredients (and tools for making tools). Also, even for the short term it is true that if you plan for a massive increase, you have to do something about your tools (and tools for making tools).

>>2289539
>My understanding is that deterioration is 'baked in' to the input based on the expected lifetime of machinery. For example if a machine is expected to bake a billion loaves of bread before it craps out, then the input for that loaf of bread is one-billionth of that machine.
Yes.

>>2289711
>Really Cockshott doesn't go far enough tbh because he doesn't consider non-labor time as a variable in production.
I'm pretty sure he does, but his toy models I know of do not. The standard example of the classical economists is wine. Time dependencies in production are displayed with modified Gantt charts and the like, showing how long something is supposed to take with bars. The bars of processes that have to happen one after another link up and form longer paths, the longest of these is called the Critical Path. Since this sort of analysis is not only common in business, but also in computer science, he must know about it.

>>2289843
I know he has referenced Mechanization Takes Command by Giedion in a video(?), which talks about the use of baking soda and pressurized chambers to accelerate the time needed to transform dough but I can't recall Cockshott ever talking about Gantt's work. Maybe Beer speaks to it and Cockshott treats it as a given? I haven't read him yet.

>>2289711
RHP allows dealing with such things, for example that you have to plant in spring and harvest in autumn
https://github.com/lokehagberg/rhp