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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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In for some red terror?
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This thread is for the discussion of cybercommunism, the planning of the socialist economy by computerized means, including discussions of related topics and creators. Drama belongs in /isg/

Reading
Towards a New Socialism by Paul Cockshott and Allin Cottrell: http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/
Brain of the Firm by Stafford Beer
Cybernetic Revolutionaries by Eden Medina
Cybernetics: Or the Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine and The Human Use of Human Beings (1st edition) by Norbert Wiener
Economic cybernetics by Nikolay Veduta
People's Republic of Walmart by Leigh Phillips and Michal Rozworski
Red Plenty by Francis Spufford
Economics in kind, Total socialisation and A system of socialisation by Otto Neurath (Incommensurability, Ecology, and Planning: Neurath in the Socialist Calculation Debate by Thomas Uebel provides a summary)

Active writers/creators
Sorted by last name
>Paul Cockshott
https://www.patreon.com/williamCockshott/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ)
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/
http://paulcockshott.co.uk/
https://twitter.com/PaulCockshott (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/PaulCockshott)
>Cibcom (Spanish)
https://cibcom.org/
https://twitter.com/cibcomorg (https://nitter.pussthecat.org/cibcomorg)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCav9ad3TMuhiWV6yP5t2IpA)
>Tomas Härdin
https://www.haerdin.se/tag/cybernetics.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w (https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UC5fDgA_eHleDiTLC5qb5g8w)
>Elena Veduta
http://www.strategplan.com/en/about/veduta.php
Various videos on YouTube but no channel of her own
>Dave Zachariah
https://www.it.uu.se/katalog/davza513
One video on Paul Cockshott's channel

Podcasts
>General Intellect Unit
Podcast of the Cybernetic Marxists
http://generalintellectunit.net/

Previous threads in chronological order
https://archive.is/uNCEY
https://web.archive.org/web/20201218152831/https://bunkerchan.xyz/leftypol/res/997358.html
https://archive.ph/uyggp
https://archive.is/xBFYY
https://archive.ph/Afx5a
https://archive.is/kAPvR
https://archive.is/0sAS2
https://archive.is/jXivP
477 posts and 85 image replies omitted.

>>2488860
>I have seen them in action in software engineering for a good breakdown of why they are wrong see this >>>/tech/26448
oh god I fucking hate agile with a passion. I thank GNU every day that I can work on projects that have a spec up front and a fixed price

>>2488987
>that simply leaves us with a new contradiction to overcome
you can't escape this, no matter the system

>>2489325
what even is this shit, fuck off

>>2491066
do not besmirch Ian Wright (pbuh), the Prophet of Capital
>>2489325
watched this earlier. there's a bunch of good stuff in there. didn't know Wright is working on a book

>>2491066
lol is this the best that counter revolutionary science can come up with these days.

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>>2510951
holy shit if anyone know anything about this, your time has come
also props to the one guy who made a compilation of all the noises in his vids, Im somehow convinced this is thank to him

>>2510951
almost any mic with a pop filter and a boom arm should do. and with a cordoid pattern. mine can be switched between omni and cordoid
>>2511182
it's a treasure

new 'ock'ott
>Nitzan And Bichler
<A defence of the labour theory of value against the criticism of it made by two Canadian economists.

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When are we going to put this shit into practice? What the fuck can we do while we wait for something to change?

>>2521582
>What the fuck can we do while we wait for something to change?
Go to venezuela.

>>2521589
>just go to a "red" succdem country
yeah I don't think that'll change anything bro

>>2511592
thanks anon

>>2489655
yeah anubis doesnt really stop ddos, it just stops bots on one site its not a replacement for global CDN and cybersecurity infrastructure with like 100s/1000s of guys on staff whose full time job is to identify and mitigate ips being used for DOS. At best anubis will prevent low level botting not true DDOS

Thoughts on Viktor Novozhilov?
>Viktor Valentinovich Novozhilov (Russian: Ви́ктор Валенти́нович Новожи́лов) (27 October [O.S. 15 October] 1892 – 15 August 1970) was a Soviet economist and mathematician, known for his development of techniques for the mathematical analysis of economic phenomena. He was awarded the Lenin Prize (1965) and served as head of the Laboratory for Economic Assessment Systems at the Leningrad office of the Central Economic Mathematical Institute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Valentinovich_Novozhilov
https://www.hetwebsite.net/het/profiles/novozhilov.htm
I'm reading through pdfsrel

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>>2523747
thx for the pee dee eff

>>2523950
rare cock. where is it from?


>>2523953
post your rarest cocks

>>2510951
paul's real problem isn't just his microphone, but he records at too low a volume. youtube normalizes it if you go too high, but if you go too low youtube doesn't do anything. he records too low and then you have to turn it way up. if you forgot to turn off autoplay you get ear raped by whatever comes after him.

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>>2524279
>post your rarest cocks
here are some rare ones. also who is the dame?
>>2524301
he also seems to never do retakes

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forgot one

There is a new video on the INDEP youtube channel: Talk with Al Campbell - Protagonistic Planned Socialism (PROPLASO) and Human Development
26 minutes in he repeats the usual hysteria by mainstream economists about voting: He claims Arrow's Impossibility Theorem shows the impossibility of aggregating ranked preferences into a group preference in a way that the result is fair and rational according to specific technical-mathematical demands… Hrrrrmpf I hate when people talk like that. Arrow's theorem really showed the impossibility of guaranteeing such a result, saying nothing about the probability of that actually happening aside from it being above zero. So I'm checking Campbell's paper Moving Beyond Capitalism (2022) on his website https://dac27.ch/ and there he actually correctly states that "no aggregation process can always guarantee" such result and that there is a "search for procedures that are “as good as possible.”"

Well IMHO this search is pretty much over since we arrived at methods that satisfy something called Independence of Smith-Dominated Alternatives. Schulze Condorcet and MAM (Maximized Affirmed Majorities) are about as good as it gets, since they also give you reversal symmetry, independence of clones, and mono-raise. Look up that stuff, you will enjoy it (if you got Autism).

What Campbell does both in that paper and his talk is that he distances himself from the standard assumption of socially atomized people with fixed opinions. He seems to believe that social interactions strongly reduce the frequency of the problem Arrow pointed out (perhaps even reduce it to nothing?), but in neither paper nor talk does he actually model that. That said, it's intuitive enough to imagine some reduction if we believe that talking to each other tends to make views more similar.

Pretty vague overall and he seems to have no algorithms.

>>2526753
watched the talk the other day, seemed to me to be a whole lot of nothing.

>>2523950
>>2523967
man he sounds so much younger here even though it's just 6 years ago

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uh oh planningsisters, the anarchists have published a critique of us
https://www.indep.network/new-book-provides-an-anarchist-critique-of-cybersocialist-theories-and-visions/
>Academics Rhiannon Firth of the University College London and John Preston of the University of Essex have published a new book Utopia in the Factory: Prefigurative Knowledge Against Cybernetics that critiques the theories and visions of techno-optimistic socialists that are based on cybernetics, automation, artificial intelligence and Industry 4.0 for being unable to include human forms of creativity and working practices both theoretically and practically.
it might be more accurate to say that the book aims its critique at Klaus Schwab (friend of the thread!). TANS is not mentioned at all
>Cyberneticians assume a tight correspondence between humans and machines. While there is no resistance or feedback, the two had the potential to form a single entity or ‘black box’. For both mechanic or organic devices, the principle is that it is more important to observe what things do, their outputs or behaviours, rather than to grasp their inner workings (Beer 1981).
this is interesting because the Internal Model Principle (née Good Regulator Theorem) states the complete opposite
this bit gave me a bit of a chuckle:
>[Cybersyn] was built in close collaboration with Stafford Beer based on his Viable Systems Model (VSM) and consisted of a network of telex machines that would monitor key production indicators on material supplies and worker absenteeism. This attempted to correct anomalies by alerting workers or in more drastic situations by sending information to the central government. Decisions on responses to emergencies would be made by managers in a centralised Control Room, with directives issued via the telex network. This illustrates how cybernetics, despite seeming to operate according to a decentralising logic, also embedded monitoring and top-down control functions: workers were expected to behave in ways that were modelled and planned, with deviation reported upwards and directives cascaded downwards.
indeed it is rather funny when people in the planning debate use Cybersyn as a counterpoint to supposed "command economies" like the USSR, despite the Cybersyn control room being literally modeled after RAF Bomber Command

>>2528370
I have only poked around in the book for a few minutes, and my superficial impression is that they are irrational and in the grand scheme of things ultimately useless/reactionary romantics, like William Morris. They don't define tacit knowledge as knowledge that isn't formalized, but as knowledge that CANNOT be formalized. Then they point at every place and announce: This place must be full of tacit knowledge.
>TANS is not mentioned at all
But AARON BASTANI'S Fully Audomaddig Luggsury Gommunism xDD gets analyzed so you know this is some serious scholarship.

>>2528925
the notion that knowledge can't be formalized/quantified is not unique to these clowns, unfortunately

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>>2528370
This book is crap.
Also, they have a problem with "vanguardism" whatever that means. Anarchists tend to confuse cybernetics with managerial science.
They are also very retarded.

IT"S OVER PLANNING SISTERS.
AN ANCAP HAS DEBUNKED CENTRAL PLANNING!!!
>Also unironic milei supporter

https://www.youtube.com/@WhatIsNotSeen

>>2528966
I have an anarchist cousin. Knowing the guy personally made me hate anarchism in a way which transcends theory, philosophy etc. It makes me sick,

>>2529125
You gotta elaborate my dude. Spill the deets.

>>2511592
he said he's running out of things to talk about :(

he's also very old

we have to carry the torch!

>>2528966
what do we reckon the odds are that this John fellow hasn't read On Authority?
>they have a problem with "vanguardism" whatever that means
probably Leninism
>>2529029
oh boy retard kino
>>2529354
at least he doesn't feel the need to talk more about the gays

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>>2529029
mein gott, it's full of slop

>>2529029
the funny thing about the line of reasoning this video puts forth is that it's nearly identical to what the GIC people argue

I prefer an anarchist critique of cybersyn to dengoids saying it isn' possible cause "material conditions" and "gdp".

>>2529430
China plans its economy THOUGH. So many think the PRC == its SEZs but it's not.

>>2529436
to which extend do they even plan? do you have any books or something to read?

>>2529568
good question. here's the 14th 5-year-plan, I think: https://digichina.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/DigiChina-14th-Five-Year-Plan-for-National-Informatization.pdf
these are only 17 targets. undoubtedly these are broken down at the regional level

>>2529615
oh and these are investment plans/goals. investment planning and day-to-day planning are different things

>>2529419
>GIC
What's that?

>>2528370
>Schwab
You intended to be sarcastic. I'm sorry, but it falls a bit flat.
File one.
>>2529436
That's not what central planning in the context of Marxism is.
File two.

Wake up, comrades.

>>2529643
MZT is a dead ideology, much like Karl Marx Thought is. Marxism is constantly evolving, so it is no surprise that the CPC is as well
>That's not what central planning in the context of Marxism is.
the word "planning" has multiple meanings. the CPC has rejected the old method of planning. that doesn't mean it has rejected planning. there are new methods of planning yet to be implemented
what we will need to do is come up with is methods to fully centralize planning. this was not possible in the 1920's, nor in the 1950's, when the USSR and the PRC respectively instituted their planning systems. these were systems of the old kind. they were highly decentralized. they used aggregate indicators and disaggregation of arrived at allocations to make the planning process tractable. today we would not do this. today we have the IT necessary to 1) fully centralize planning and to 2) fully disaggregate planning. we would also not cuck to exchange by substituting planning with exchange as the Liberman reforms did. attempts at doing so must be combated
despite the call for disaggregation above, there will unavoidably be many goals set in aggregate terms. it is not possible for any decision body to decide on every little detail everywhere. what we can do is set goals like "increase rail transport capability by 50% by 2030". this is an aggregate constraint. the details of this would need to be handled by railway workers. but said details must also go into the one, single, global, centralized planning system, so that the exact need for say steel for rails can be checked against production capabilities and against environmental constraints and so on. the long term effects of say concrete vs wooden sleepers must be evaluated against this singular planning system. any attempt at "decentralizing" such a process always amounts to exchange

can we out-compete capitalism somehow using cybernetics? kind of like the bourgeoisie did with capitalism?

>>2529887
there is potential to create something that is better at regulating production than capitalism is. Capital has various blind spots. Capital also likes to create crises

>>2529643
Should we expect communist states to change the entire global mode of production at a moment's notice? Honestly, I dunno if Cuba, China, and DPRK combined have the means.

Cybernetic economic planning is already being used by the world bank via linear regressions and optimized via ai. Demand forecasting also turns big data into big business. All of this is autism that could be channeled towards making you look like a quant wallstreet big shot.

Cockshott is working on a new book about geometry and computing btw.

>>2269973
Yup, he is a member of the CPB, as of about 2023 I believe.
t. CPB member


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