Talking to third worldists as a third world prole is genuinely one of the most dehumanizing things a person can experience.
Imagine being reduced to a caricature and getting relentlessly slandered for not actually fitting in into that image. Our whole struggle as workers gets discarded offhand in the name of "critical support". Our martyrs mocked, our exploitation and bloodshed ridiculed. All of this so leftists could satisfy their idealism and perceived moral superiority in relation to their more honest rightist brothers. I genuinely look forward to wiping that grin off of their face when workers overthrow the bourgeois regimes they worship so much.
Edward Said could've wrote such a great scientific thesis on this question instead of being an orientalist himself by criticizing Marx and painting society as one classless monolith with vague national characteristics and no internal contradictions.
>>2276623This is a very vague statement. Do you have a specific third worldist view that you think is false and often held by first world dwelling third worldists?
I don't know any serious third worldist that believes there are no contradictions/antagonism within third countries, if that is what you were trying to imply.
>>2276647Third worldism is inherently class collaborationist. Don't engage with my thread if you're going to be a dishonest pussy.
>>2276651 The ruling ideas are ideas of the ruling so of course there are liberal and petty bourgeois third worlders like you. But I'm talking about the workers movement. The ones who get massacred in the streets every so often.
>>2276655Refer to
>>2276654>third world leftI'm a communist not a leftist and I could care less if socdem national socialists agree with me or not.
>>2276670Which critique of who?
There seems to be a troll/spammer in the thread, and op hasn't elaborated on anything yet.
>>2276623I've always called it racist, in that "noble savage" sense in that they just project fantasies onto normal people like we're in a fantasy novel. They dehumanize the third world's subjectivity to fit the fantasy they created.
One of the particularly dumb parts is their dismissal of internal conflicts within third world nations, simplifying everything to their fantasy of rebels vs the empire. It's one of the most liberal ideas ever, yet you get banned here if you don't play the part because the mod team get their politics from youtubers.
There are even westerners telling you to shut up itt like you're an uncle Tom. It's so blatant.
>>2276697Can you give an example an internal conflict in third world that was/is explicitly dismissed by a third-worldist?
As hypothetical example, is there someone who denies the conflict migrants from Burkina into Ivory Coast & plantation land owners? Or the conflict between those plantation owners and the commodity speculators in Abidjan? Maybe they say the only conflict is between French colonies in West Africa & France-Afrique?
>>2276716Can you give a pdf or link to the article you got that from?
It reads to me like acknowledging the internal conflict in Iran, at least as far as discontent with living stds & working conditions is concerned.
—
Maybe I should turn the issue around though: Do you believe that there isn't uneven development and a global division of labour? That unequal exchange doesn't exist or is quite modest? That revolution has equal or more potential in the first world compared to the third?
>>2276732The first image is a meme photo, with no actual reference to any author or argument.
The second is a screenshot of… a twitter interaction? (or is it some other social media site)? Who are the people posting though? What indicates that third-worldists? What is the image they posted about?
—
I am sorry I am extremely confused. Usually when people attack third-worldism they say something about either workers in the first world being equally exploited overall compared to the third, or that one should focus on local organization in the first world rather than trying to aid third world groups, etc, etc.
Not only are you not putting forth any kind of argument like that, but its not even clear what it is you are referring to at all.
Who are these third-worldists? What shows they agree with third-worldism? What claims are they making? What is wrong in their claims?
All I can see that anyone in thread has said is that someone somewhere has claimed that there are no internal conflict world countries (which seems to me almost so patently absurd I have doubts anyone would say this, let alone a marxist, whose theoretical basis is contradiction/antagonism)
>>2276741TLDR I'll answer your earlier concern about development
Since Islamoliberals took over, my country has been steadily going through deindustrialization with the only sector that is ever-expanding being the service sector which has recently surpassed even the oil industry.
Through materialist analysis we do recognize the decentralized form that capital is taking in order to survive and maintain its relations of production, this trend isn't going anywhere as it isn't merely arbitrary but a reaction to a crisis (falling rate of profit) inherent within capitalism itself.
As Marx himself outlined in the manifesto, It is the duty of the proletariat to overthrow its bourgeois regime, take over what little industry remains to expand and centralize while working towards an international revolution. Social Democrats, Islamists, Nationalists (all being libs) aren't going to do that for you. This is a fact observable even in the most reactionary of states such as Iran and the DPRK who are opening up to foreign investment more and more while crushing any workers' dissent.
>>2276751Third worldism is class collaboration (You) sniveling pathetic dog
>>2276775If you are not even going to bother to read, then what is the pint of engaging at all with you?
In your new reply, you go on tangent about recent economic trends in your country.
You end in saying something basically everyone agrees with.
But the whole point of third-worldism is that because of uneven development, unequal exchange, etc. between regions in the world, it is not uniformly ripe for revolutionary organization everywhere and the conditions are more apt for it in the relatively poorer countries.
This both explains why socialist revolutions historically occured near exclusively in the third world, but also gives a path forward: Direct time, work, thinking, finances, etc. towards the third world communist organizations as it will yield relatively better results.
How this is class-collaborationist you have yet to establish.
>>2276775>Since Islamoliberals took over, my countrywhich country? it would help to understand what conflict you think there is if we could analyze the concrete as an example, who you are accusing of third worldism might not even disagree with you
>>2276775>Third worldism is class collaboration presumably you are referring to popular fronts but that is not third worldism. everyone from marx to mao advocated for temporary alliances with the national bourgeois under different monarchist/fuedal/colonial/imperial contexts. the main part being temporary and with the intent to turn the struggle for national liberation into a civil war after the primary impediment to self determination is overcome. it makes sense to ally with the rising bourgeoisie in a monarchy because both proles and borgs incentives are aligned towards bourgeois democracy as a progression, the same as it does under colonial dictatorship, where the rising national capitalists and proles are both incentivized towards sovereign parliamentary democracy. you certainly can skip steps but its not about willpower but rather the level of organization achieved by communists. in a country without a significant proletariat that might be agricultural based it could be difficult but we also have examples of it historically working
>>2276840>workers raped by their neoliberal regime and foreign capital (white):|
>workers raped by their neoliberal regime and foreign capital (non-white):0
Guys the 'browns' are genetically incapable of class consciousness, Iranian workers protecting their factories from privatisation and getting massacred is CIA color revolution.
I really do appreciate how people in the West have been able to group the entirety of, you know, a hundred plus nations, peoples, billions of people, into a single term, the Global South, as if the material conditions and forces in each of those places aren't unique and different, and as if those places are all at the same level of suffering and exploitation. It's vulgar materialism masking itself in Western chauvinism, and I'm tired of pretending otherwise. It's white man's burden, but repackaged.
>>2276886It's actually pure idealism
All workers share the same conditions and are the subject of the same international social order
>>2276899No one cares.
>>2276902True.
>>2276623>in relation to their more honest rightist brothersThis is where you lost me.
The one consistent thing rightoids do is lie, shamelessly.
Also this paragraph
>>2276775 has more theory than this board's collective posts since it was on 8chan
>>2277037Imagine bumping the thread only to express how absolutely mind fucked you are for being exposed as a liberal by a Marxist infinitely smarter and more well read than you whose people you claim to represent
I don't envy liberals today it's their 9/11
>>2277008>and so we should support the proletariat in these nations more soi dont see why these are mutually exclusive. its not always the case that the proletariat in these nations are in opposition to these "dictators"
thats why i keep asking for examples. i perfectly understand the tendency op is talking about but I dont think its one expressed by communists here, and its definitely not a position held by MTW who most people call ultras because they are trying to do PPW 24/7 in every country.
the "feigned ignorance" is an attempt to get OP to define what they actually mean but they refuse because they are trying to conflate and flatten the difference between popular fronts, ML temporary critical support, MTW, and vulgar nationalism, or alternatively they are lacking the theory to know there is a difference. third worldists are the most likely people to oppose "dictators" and US imperialism simultaneously in favor of violent revolution even if it it certain they will lose and they all die.
op isn't incoherent they transparently dont know what the fuck they are talking about and are trying to redefine "third worldism" as a pejorative that refers to positions already present in early marx when actual third worldists advocate immediate communist revolution across the global south who would then form an international union to isolate and then impose a dictatorship over north america and western europe who they believe are incapable of revolution and would have to be reeducated by an external force
>>2277069theres also non communist third worldists, but this cant be who OP is talking about because they opposed the soviet union as imperialist specifically because the soviet union did what OP is crying about supporting dictators, and MTW emerged out of this because stalin told mao to just stick with liberalism, but the original third worldists were non-aligned and equally opposed to communism and imperialism because they wanted bourgeois nationalism instead yet again exactly OPs complaint.
so where are these secret leftypol "third worldists" that oppose communism in principle? they dont exist. theres only regular marxists and communists who critically support temporary alliances under specific conditions where interests align and only for so long as they do.
>>2277091Kaesong trade zone was shut down actually. 2014 if memory serves. Moreover, over the last decade, many of the markets opened in the late 90s have begun to be slowly shut down as state supermarkets have proliferated across the country. Even 38north acknowledges this.
—
But one thing you should know is that foreign investment in the USSR continued well into the five year plans as Gosplan's grip expanded (see investments by Ford and Armand Hammer). This mainly served as a means of tech and skill transfer, and actually grew in importance because of the foreign exchange restrictions that the fall in the international proces for grains put on the post 1929 USSR.
>>2276623This whole OP reads like someone who's mad at
something they're calling "third worldism", but as they're writing they realize more and more that they don't actually know what "third worldists" believe, so they have to write in the most vague way possible to mask their complete lack of investigation into the thing they're supposedly mad about.
>>2277143Ah now that you put it that way it actually makes a lot of sense.
Whatever 'third-worldism' refers to in their head is neither what its common supporters nor detractors general mean by the term.
Kind of like how for many years the anglosphere right would refer to idpol by the name 'marxism', but is was at best only very vaguely marginally related.
>>2277177No you are right clearly
>>2277203 is completely serious and not trolling at all.
And obviously
>>2277226 has made a solid point that completely refutes third-worldism, among a vast many other things.
>>2277329Communist Party of China
Communist Party of Cuba
Communist Party of Vietnam
Workers' Party of Korea
etc.
>>2277422Who cares what Hitlerites think. The real movement doesn't need to appeal to reactionaries and compromise its principles in the process. Our only appeal to them is ruthless critique.
No matter how marginal our line may be we will inevitably triumph because our movement is not based on abstractions but the material interest of the working class. Marxist-Leninism is dead in my country after decades of opportunism, and in its place a more authentic tendency has sprang taking the struggle from senile cafe goers to the young workers in the streets.
>>2276710>labour strikes in Iran & China are CIAt:
8ch/leftypol/
>>2276697/thread
It's exactly it, the noble savage meme but adapted for a leftist western audience, particulary alt-edgy gamers in their 20s who never leave their chairs, as if third-worlders weren't capable of being petty about their own ethnicities, religions and territorial disputes, no, it's always the all-powerful westoid behind the scenes, it's a veiled attempt to assert Western supremacy.
My pet conspiracy theory is that /leftypol/ was too radical during the early 8chan days, and it's so easy to flood imageboards, you can create your own truth by just repeating something enough times, just like they did on /pol/, and people will repeat it for you, it's like the Pavlov's dog, some actors wanted us to stir the conversation in this way rather than proletarian internationalism. That's why they pretend "OP is indecipherable" and ask you for PDFs they will never read. That's why they spam emojis when it doesn't work. Don't be fooled.
>>2276884This is a perfect example of what OP was talking about. "Plebs living in the third-world are too poor to learn how to talk in English correctly" despite them wiping the floor on that front with your average Romance language Eurocitizen. For third-world proles, talking good English is a matter of survival.
>>2276996They think the world out there is a fairy tale but that's the truth. Go travel in Myanmar/Burma if you don't believe me.
>>2279682no, the peoples capital import. Russia isn't socialist, and neither was the US when they exported to China, but on China's terms for technology transfer. and Russia even offers better terms for the Burkinabe than the US.
and what did Sankara say about foreign "aid"?
>Memorandums of understanding covering education and training, infrastructure development and public opinion have been signed in the next stage of Burkina Faso and Russia's cooperation on peaceful uses of nuclear technology.
>The MoUs were signed by Rosatom Director General Alexei Likhachev and Burkina Faso's Minister of Energy, Mines and Quarries, Yacouba Zabre Guba, on the sidelines of the St Petersburg International Economic Forum.
>They set out a framework for interaction covering education and training in the field of nuclear energy, the assessment and development of nuclear infrastructure and also cooperation concerning the forming of positive public opinion on nuclear energy.
>Rosatom said that as part of the agreements there would be links between educational institutions, training of teachers and student exchange programmes. On public opinion there would be activities aimed at raising public awareness of the benefits of non-energy applications of nuclear technology in areas such as medicine and agriculture.
>The MoUs build on those signed in October 2023 and in March this year which set out a roadmap for the development of cooperation between the two countries with the aim of implementing both nuclear energy projects and using nuclear technology to benefit medicine and agriculture in Burkina Faso.
>The signing took place on the same day that Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov was visiting Burkina Faso for talks. Burkina Faso's Foreign Minister Karamoko Jean-Marie Traore said at a press conference after their discussions that the cooperation "is a positive factor that will allow us to further develop infrastructure in this direction"https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Burkina-Faso-signs-fresh-nuclear-energy-MoUs-with
>Russia will continue to help Burkina Faso by training national personnel. The Russian government scholarship quota for Burkinabe citizens has doubled for the 2024–2025 academic year. This year, Russia is prepared to take 27 more students. Russia’s federal budget will cover the tuition. In all, about 3,500 students from Burkina Faso received their education in Russia.
>Cooperation in healthcare and sanitation holds a lot of promise. On April 24–25, Ms Popova visited Ouagadougou. Russia is ready to conduct joint scientific research, develop laboratory infrastructure, and train specialists.
>Captain Traoré understands that in addition to defence and security and coordinating joint armed forces to fight against growing terrorism, there is the necessity to develop its production, industry, and engineering because it is crucial for Africa.
>Captain Traoré pointed out that having a strong army involves important building and training staff. In Africa, there are many expectations regarding the need for military equipment and hardware. “We would like to ask for help, and the main thing you can help us with is the transfer of technology and know-how and sharing experience,” finally stressed Captain Traoré. https://indepthnews.net/burkina-faso-forging-stronger-partnership-with-russia/ >>2279701>export?peoples import not export. and where is the imperialism?
>wage slaverydo you think Burkina Faso is developed enough to establish from each to ability from each to need and also to defend that society from external pressure like ISIS and other US proxies? or do you think real communism is when you press the button and then die?
>>2279703please explain why
imperialist petrol mopopoly build nuclear power plant? is this unprovoked agression? does this actually make the USA
less imperialist? how come americans dont build nuclear power in africa if its so lucrative that ruzzia would even use their military to make a proxy dictatorshop? putler is probably just doing it so he can make another chernybol anyways since hes evil. isnt paying for doctors to go to school basically slavery like the cuban regine? i think this is probably just another attempt at white genocide. basically fascism from what i can tell. typical for assadist ruzzian toadies. maybe al-Jolani can help them out when he is done brinigng freedom to syrians.
>>2279707On one habd nuclear is supported by the fossil fuel sector as a delaying tactic against renewables. Nuclear is the most expensive, technologically demanding source of electricity so if the money goes to this you have reactors that will take 20 years to build instead of renewables now.
On the other hand it's a way of making other countries dependant and tied up on super long projects as on this instance rosatom would own all the supply line as this technology is just so far out of reach for BF.
With their poor development and lack of education nevermind the insecurity nuclear is a terrible choice for Burkina, they should just go all in for solar
>>2279731>With their poor development and lack of education>>2279703>a framework for interaction covering education and training>links between educational institutions>training of teachers and student exchange programmes>to further develop infrastructure>develop laboratory infrastructure, and train specialists
>rosatom would own all the supply lineyou know they have their own uranium?
>go all in for solarsolar only lasts a couple decades and you have to replace them. do you think they have the supply lines for that??
>>2298071"certain tendencies" within both absolutely have a comparable way of implicitly suggesting people in the 3rd world are in some way inherently inclined towards being better as individuals. i agree with many main premises of both 3rd worldism & multipolarism, its hard not to. the majority of the world is extremely immiserated & it is clearly being done by international capitalists in a way that results in relatively improved basic living standards for the 1st world. the US is clearly the single hegemonic empire, and that is to the detriment of everyone everywhere, that hegemony being challenged is easily a net good.
but there is a venn diagram of 3rd worldists/multipolarists, and in the middle is both "often being obviously right" and also "fetishistic particularism"
>>2299798>implicitly suggesting people in the 3rd world are in some way inherently inclined towards being better as individualsthis is absurd i have no idea where you are getting it from. the proletariat as a whole is inclined towards revolutionary consciousness and certain sections of exceptionally immiserated proletariat in the third world might be more inclined while the labor aristocracy section of the proletariat in the first world is less inclined, but it says nothing about inherently anything and depends on the material conditions. its not because they are third world that they are more inclined, its because "third world" is the title used to describe countries in the exploitative role in the colonial relationship of imperialism. if the "first world" was a colony then the description would apply to them instead.
"certain tendencies" better describes well paid liberal gusano assholes in the capital city of a colony advocating collaboration with imperialism so they can sell out their country to enjoy western 'human rights' as individuals. maybe if theyre struggle as workers amounted to anything the international proletariat wouldn't be critically supporting their national bourgeois. people aren't supporting capitalist national liberation struggles over and instead of communist ones, they are supporting them in the absence of communist ones.
i dont understand how its supposedly the fault of communists outside a country that the alternative doesn't exist. if anything the fault lies with the bourgeoisie, imperialist and otherwise. our leaders are all revisionist or dead too thats not something unique to the third world. we all have to actually put in the work to organize pretty much starting from nothing you cant just wish the revolution into existence or rush into before the masses are ready but its so much easier to just point fingers at eachother and blame posting on the internet for all your problems
>>2300413>reasonsThe reasons are spelled out in the post. No communist alternative exists.
>Look up the history of the term.Yeah maybe you should. Third worldists never support bourgeoisie even critically. The conflation with them and multipolarism is nonsensical.
>>2300617>No communist alternative existsSo third world proles are more inclined to be revolutionary yet we should still support the people that cave their skulls in because material conditions (they're
subhuman not ready to lead themselves)
>>2300726>not ready to lead themselvesWhat is this supposed to mean? Do proles as a whole lead themselves or is it the vanguard party? In the absence of a vanguard party who leads the proles? If no one is leading them and there is no organized movement isn't that the definition of "not being ready", meaning they need to educate and organize people more first?
What exactly are you proposing that they do instead? Do a revolution anyway without the workers support? Attempt to impose their will on the masses without explaining why and getting them behind it?
>>2301556>Third world regimes are petite bourgeois and the average worker in 3rd world countries oppose their governmentftfy
I guess it really makes us third worlders revolutionary, since we oppose the petite bourgeois regimes western liberals worship so much :^)
>>2301230The whole thread is just seems like venting frustration that op had interacting with some people online.
Its not actually clear what op and supporters want exactly; It wasn't even clear if they knew what the terms they are using generally meant.
People cope about how the contemporary global communist movement is weak in many different ways; Some cheerlead for revisionism, other throw in their lot with western chauvinism, other simply praise the most modest social democratic developmentalist efforts, yet others have delusions that victory is just around the corner.
Online, overwhelmingly, people just impotently emotionally respond whatever rhetoric they encounter that they disagree with (which they might not even be able to articulate exactly why or what it is they disagree with).
The task of a third worldist; n these times is simply to help third world communist organizations in whatever modest & small ways they can. That's really all there is to it.
>>2301576I prefer those who call you racial slurs than those who treat you like a noble savage and write paragraphs of nothingburgers to attempt to justify why supporting brown Hitler in your country is for your own good
irg
>>2301600>where is brown hitlerAll regimes in third world especially socdem ones
We will piss on your masters' grave and you will cry about it, timmy.
>>2301604hitler attacked the workers and slashed their wages thoughbeit
evo morales raised the wages of bolivian workers
>>2301609Yes?
This is an over 18 board. sorry.
>>2301604You can't be taken serious in a imageboard but surely you will be able to piss on somebody's grave.
>>2301555They are right.
t. brazilian
>>2299805>"certain tendencies" better describes well paid liberal gusano assholes in the capital city of a colony advocating collaboration with imperialism so they can sell out their country to enjoy western 'human rights' as individuals.yes that is a real tendency of 3rd world populations, and those compradors and useful idiots are an entirely different topic than talking about a particular tendency among 3rd worldists/multipolarists. the comprador & NGO crowd are obviously a far more influential and severe evil than some misguided weirdo who acts as if 3rd world proles cant often be dumb, manipulated, or even simply disagree with them within a normal range of communist dispute without them being a secret 1st worlder.
obviously that is not all 3rd worldists/multipolarists, and is not part of their explicit analysis, and analysis that is even at its worst usually still more correct than the vast majority of political analysis. which i why i specified its a "particular tendency", because im not trying to paint the overall analysis of these schools of thought in that way. i agree on far more fundamentals of 3rd worldism/multipolarism than i disagree with, and yes very different explicit analyses that happen to both contain elements of what im describing.
i was responding to someone who disagreed with OP so immediately jumped to "youre not a 3rd world worker", because its a common 'rebuttal' that illustrates there is at least a grain of truth in what OP is saying even tho i think hes being hyperbolic & reductive
>>2276916They 100% think bourgeois revolution is possible in Africa, Asia, Latam (insert brown country)
They just don’t think socialism is possible anywhere, and some think it won’t ever be possible, and we should call anti-Western capitalism socialism because capitalism is when white people
>>2276623Lmao jannoids had to sage the thread because they couldn’t handle the liberalism of this board being completely exposed
No different than fash LARPers, all online tendencies are generally just various forms of liberalism, except for Marxism, which leftypol stands in opposition to
>>2301727Did they?
I shit on jannies a lot but them not burying this thread (which they know was posted from a third worlder IP) is the bare minimum they can do.
>>2301673I don't know why anyone doubts op is a third worlder. Its not that claim can be confirmed or denied on an anonymous imageboard anyways.
The best one can say is that op is definitely not a typical.third worlder since: He has at least a phone; He reliable has internet access; He speak english at a level comparable with an average anglo; His primary concern was what first wolders online spout on social media.
—
I don't know when third-worldism and cheerleading geopolitical rivals (or worse, confusing them as socialist countries) began; I can understand enjoying when the west takes an L, or being upset if one of their weaker enemies are defeated.
Take the Assad jr. government for instance; Syria falling to a combination of Israel, Turkey, Islamic rebels, Liberal rebels, etc. is not at all beneficial for the communist movement worldwide in any way. That said, Assad jr. government was not only not building socialism in any way, but it also went hard neoliberal buttfuck in the 2000s, was generally weak & arbitrary, etc. So being in support of it made no sense (for whatever saying "I support x" online is worth; I think it more often then not is a waste of time & calories at best)
>>2302048Did I, or did I not say Assad jr. gov went full neoliberal buttfuck in the 2000s and was generally weak & arbitrary?
Did I say there was any reason to support it?
My point was only that the communist movement is at least slightly worse off at its defeat now (at least because communist parties there have been banned & western imperialism is strengthened).
Ots like if Ukraine won in the current inter-imperial.conflict. It would be somewhat worse compared to Russia winning. Either way isn't good though.
But I waste my time on yet another malaka on an imageboard.
>>2302128*This is what they believe
>>2301551>>2302133Iran is an unpopular theocracy that kills organized proles for opposing its neoliberal policies, dumb fucking retard.
>>2302143You're too busy supporting Islamists that slaughter brown workers to know anything about said workers
>>2276716You're the labor aristocracy, the world is genuinely a better place without you.
t. third worlder
>>2302146The person you replied to asked to give an example of which tendency is opposing them doing revolution.
The paragraph linked only says that there was some spontaneous unrest by workers; It did not specify which tendencies/parties supported or opposed the demands for factory takeover. For example, did the Tudeh party take a stance on this at the time? They are technically illegal and weak, but it would help to compare and contrast their view.
Honestly, if the full article could be linked that would be actually contributing to a serious discussion.
>>2302156>>2302156>third world workers are cavemen unorganized and love the boot over their necks so we should support their bourgeoisie<*completely prove otherwise*>ummm… okay but could you recite the charter of every one of the dozen communist parties in Iran that are opposed to the regimeHey spinless retard, it wasn't just "some spontaneous unrest by workers", it showcased how advanced and organized the labor movement in Iran is and this specific demonstration in 2019 alone led to the death of at least 500 Iranian workers. The Iranian government is constantly engaged in union busting and strike breaking.
>>2302172Iran is openly a neoliberal government (their PM ran on that promise) and Iranian oil is privatized and is partly owned by western companies, the 500 Iranian workers who the IRGC killed were against the privatization. Read what you're replying to dumbass.
https://www.iranoilgas.com/companies/listforeign >>2302188I'm not Iranian. You're an oblivious worm on the other side of the planet talking about a country you know nothing about.
>which partiesكلهن كس امك
>>2302201>who opposed it this guy
>>2302172 who calls it a color revolution alongside every IRGC critical-supporting western third worldist orientalist retard like you
wait am i reading this wrong or were the protests about reinstating the monarchy lmao very communism
>In November 2019, people chanted, "Shah of Iran, return to Iran!", "Iran is muddled in a mess without the Shah", "Clerics must get lost", "No to Gaza, no to Lebanon. We sacrifice our lives for Iran," "Death to the dictator", "Death to the Islamic Republic", "Our military brothers, why do you kill your brother?", "Bless your soul Reza Shah", "Not Gaza, not Lebanon, my life only for Iran", "Oil money has been lost, it has all been spent on Palestine", "They have brought up Islam, but trampled the people", "The supreme leader lives like a God. We, the people live like beggars."[127] "We have no money or fuel, to hell with Palestine."[128]
>Chants became even more radical in the January protests, with demonstrators calling for a revolution and chanting, "This is your last month, [Khamenei] it is time to go", "Oh Crown Prince, come to our help", "Clerics must get lost", "No reforms, no referendum, just strikes and revolution", "Sepah commits murders, and the Supreme Leader supports it", "You killed our elites, and replaced them with clerics", and "Death to Khamenei".[129]
>>2302222"Impasse in Iran: Workers Versus Authoritarian Neoliberalism" by Peyman Jafari
There are dozens of articles that documented the labor movement during those demonstrations but I don't have them saved. This work is a decent summery.
>>2302201His response is very bizarre; Instead of just replying with an easy "x party/org. opposed this trike by iranian workers here is the source" he proceeds to verbal abuse and a complete red herring (I never said anything about tw workers being cavemen, loving boots or that someone should support the bourgeoisie). It would be so easy to actually give a proper reply.
I googled his reply here
>>2302209 to the question of which parties and brings up pornography.
So no only does he not reply to question, engages in fallacious reasoning & verbal abuse, but he is also seemingly a degenerate.
>>2302240Perhaps you should translate stuff in foreign language before googling them or not
كيف تصبح ارهابي انا احب الارهاب كيف تنظم الى داعش
>>2302229>some guy who went to princeton and definitely isn't a glowie i promisegonna need a statement from communis
t in iran not gusanos or voices in your head. sorry emojis and anon posting is not evidence
>the labor movement i thought we were talking about communism. you want to switch liberalism for liberalism and accuse others of supporting liberalism
>>2302245You are a degenerate, and any good communist organization would have to get rid of you.
That said you do show indeed that there is no inherent genetic or cultural difference between third worlders or first worlders: You demonstrate that tw people can be just as degenerate, disgusting, sick pure wastes of space and life as any fw person can be.
>>2302249>t in iran not gusanosYour source is Iran international
>>2302210You should neck yourself asap
>>2302249Yes the glowies have every interest in saying Iranian workers are organized and are against their regime, privatization while also not wanting the US to invade them. This is literally what the CIA wants.
Now let's hear from Timmy why Iranian workers who are too retarded to organize should be killed by their neoliberal regime.
>>2302238I have spent a bit of time with African coms on facebook; There aren't that many (and Ialso speak French), and they don't spend that much time online because data is expensive.
When you meet a person from the third world online, they are much probability (even excluding the diaspora) of being petty-bourg or bourg. Speaking english at high level of fluency as a second language is very expensive as a process.
Even many high ranking KKE members don't speak much English for example, despite the party having quite an extensive translator team.
>>2302273No doubt. That said, it seems plausible to me that stealth privatization of oil is occuring there, because such schemes (where remains intact but it increasingly subcontracts) are common not just in the middle east, but worldwide.
Everyone basically engages in it to some extent, even to the point of it being self defeating for their own long term regime stability (eg. I gave earlier with Assad jr. gov 2000s liberalization)
>>2302280>ML learns that bourgeois dictatorship interests are subordinated to capital which is in need of expansion and inherently international at this stage of development>this is okay because every other bourgeois dictatorship does itThese people can't be on the same physical plane as us
PLEASE MARXALLAH SPARE ME FROM THOSE WHO SPEAK YOUR NAME IN VAIN
>>2302282Back in the day at least, the CIA was actually pretty clever and would tend to finance all sides that wanted to bring down a government. Now obviously they would have their preferred groups over others, but the idea is that instability needs to be generalized.
And actually making use of legitimate grievances by workers (and ordinary people generally) tends work a lot better at achieving regime change ends (precisely because the base is legitimate). See Ukraine 2014.
The key here is that liberalization tends to bring about more liberalization in this kind of cascading positive feedback loop way. It amplifies, if not actively creates, the basis for widespread discontent that then can be seized for an uprising that brings into power even more liberalization (although aligned differently geopolitically).
Recognizing this doesn't mean one therefore supports non-western aligned liberalizing governments (if anything, just the opposite, since they are cucking themselves out for a future lib/western/jihadi/etc. coup or civil war)
>>2302287
>this is okay because every other bourgeois dictatorship does itWhat in the fuck? Where did I say this good/fine?
Ανόητος μαλακας 100/100.
>>2302303This.
The CIA is against neoliberalism, oil privatization and US imperialism.
I will literally say anything as long as I get to support neoliberal Islamists who kill organized brown workers.
>>2302274most 3rd worlders, at least english speaking (no idea if whatsapp has big multilingual use or if theres equivelants) that are on the internet are in whatsapp groups that distill a ton of the same shit you get on big social media with all their own nutty schizo shit. where ive been whatsapp is used for phonecalls/basic text that people need anyway & you can buy cards based on data or time. if you buy them based on time or just get addicted to posting same way anyone else does, nothing really stopping people in reasonably internet connected countries in urban & semi-urban areas. source im a firstie i have lived in the 3rd world
visiting & then staying to help in-laws, not glow or poverty tourism, obviously varies enormously even within countries but i think people underestimate how much of the global proletariat is online, ESPECIALLY if were talking about specifically proletariat & not the remaining nearly-dispossessed peasantry that make up a plurality of the rural population or the dispossessed lumpen that are very often a plurality of the urban population. which isnt to suggest any uniform higher status for 3rd world proles, in most cases a lagos street hawker lives better than a rural indian day-wage contractless prole in extractive industries. but also in most places the proletariat are not the most wretched or desperate people around
>>2302273damn dude you had all day to find one statement from an actual iranian communist party and couldn't manage it
oh well
>>2302324saying they
are not organized is a lot different then saying the
can not organize
where is the org? what is its name? and which western orgs are denouncing them? what are their names? where are these massive western third worldist parties that have so much international influence they are stopping iranians from doing revolution? how are they aiding the government? do they provide material support? are they sending them arms or monetary donations?
>>2302268>Your source is Iran internationaland also DW Sky News and NYT Israel 365 and Radio Farda
interesting that they all also supported the protests along with Mike Pomeo. Very communist.
So do you have a source that disputes what they are saying, maybe one that shows the protesters were not trying to bring back monarchy?
lets see what we can find
CPI - no statements
https://old.cpiran.org/english/statements/index.htmlCPI again - doesn't go past 2020
https://cpiran.org/category/announcements/page/155/Tudeh has no statements about the protests, but works with CPUSA and CPB. so i guess they dont think first worlders are stopping them from doing anything
https://www.tudehpartyiran.org/en/2020/01/12/the-joint-statement-of-the-communist-party-of-britain-the-tudeh-party-of-iran-and-the-communist-party-of-the-usa/heres CPIMLM (actual third world third worldists lol) on the 2022 protests
>Different political trends were in the mix—from a significant presence of reactionary pro-monarchist, pro-U.S. sentiment… to the flyer with its call for people everywhere to take up the cry for revolution from Iran and for the urgent need for a real revolution to put end to this regime and the suffering of the people in Iranhttps://cpimlm.org/1401/08/01/taking-the-communist-party-of-iran-mlm-statement-on-the-uprising-in-iran-to-the-d-c-mass-protestcontroversy-contentious-struggle-and-wellspring-of-openness/here they are saying the revolution has to be communist
> The only way for society and the majority of the people to be freed from this miserable situation and for a radical change in the situation to take place is to “overthrow” the Islamic Republic and the entire capitalist class state that is the source of the current disasters. This is only possible through a real revolution (not like what happened in 1979, when the same exploitative class system and state continued in a different form). A revolution led by a communist party relying on the most developed understanding and method of the science of revolution and liberation
>the bourgeois and pro-imperialist forces are once again sending a message to our people that they should not “worry about the future” and that it is enough to “pass” the Islamic Republic. While they themselves are already acting as a “government in exile” and sending envoys to various governments for consultations and negotiations (i.e., participating and taking part in the power structure after the Islamic Republic with the support of imperialist governments). The bourgeois forces, due to their nature and class position, do not want to eliminate the fundamental structures on which this order of exploitation and oppression
> In reactionary systems, there is no substantive difference between “free” and “unfree” elections. The democracy or “democracy” claimed by the imperialists and the Islamic Republic is only a deception
>claim : The “Transitional Management Council” is “non-violent” and wants to make it possible for the people’s struggles against the Islamic Republic to proceed “structured and non-violently until the ruling regime surrenders to the will of the people.” 6
>Reality: This claim is a superstition and a deception of the people.
>Therefore, it is more vital than ever to bring communist consciousness to the different segments of the people, to enlighten their minds on what the problem is and what the solution is, and to link this consciousness to the various arenas of struggle and what we call the “seven stops” and to organize to carry out a real revolution.https://cpimlm.org/1398/08/09/%D8%A2%D9%84%D8%AA%D8%B1%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AA%DB%8C%D9%88%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%B2%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%AA%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B9%DB%8C-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%A2%DB%8C%D9%86%D8%AF/oh wow so they also think people need education and organization and that the protests just want to swap one liberal for another
i wonder who the Transitional Management Council is?
https://iran-tc.com/en/about-us/oh the grandson of grand ayatollah is a board member. super communist!
feel free to dig through the links. maybe you can find something else
>>2302854>So do you have a source that disputes what they are sayingPerhaps shouting stuff like this
>>2302282>inb4 but the Iranian monarchist diaspora said they're so relevant that 500 Iranian workers laid their lives for themLiterally no one remembers the monarchy in Iran. I know Iranian comrades from two parties there, one being a branch of a party I organize with. But by all means keep linking Israel 69 articles or whatever.
>>2302876>doesn't mean every revolution in Iran is western supportedright but it also doesn't mean every revolution in iran is communist. and not being western supported also doesn't mean that it wouldn't be in the wests interests or that they wouldn't co-opt of facilitate it if it actually started to get somewhere. thats not to say that I think we should oppose a bourgeois revolution if its actually progressive, but simply being not-western backed isn't necessarily progressive. you could very well have a spontaneous popular uprising that swaps religiods for non-sectarian liberals that turn around and sell the country out to the west anyway because thats what liberals do.
im trying to think of an example of a progressive populist movement that is for sovereignty and development but all the ones i can think of are right wing and religious. the mythical left wing populist movement that isn't communist doesn't really exist. who is irans bernie? is tudeh socdem? they do have the rose.
>>2302900>I thinkRefrain from commenting on a country your only point of reference to are 10 minute youtube videos and reddit comments
>progressive populist movement that is for sovereigntyNot a word you mentioned is related to Marxism, perhaps you'd find better luck at /pol/.
>>2302904>Not a word you mentioned is related to Marxismthats why i defined progressive as sovereign development, same as marx. progressive means increasing productive forces, which is what makes imperialism regressive and national liberation progressive, same reason bourgeois revolutions are progressive when compared to feudalism.
the "i think" is there because we are being accused of not supporting revolutions, so im describing under what material conditions marx would support a revolution. he would not support swapping a national government for a comprador one
>>2302904>only point of referencemy point of reference is actual iranian communist parties by the way. unfortunate search is still down or i could find the post with the statement referenced here
>>2302222it was really good but i had to translate it so searching in english on google doesn't help much
>>2302905Progressive, in the way you seemingly threw it around, means liberal ie conserving the status quo.
Marxian historical progress won't come about through a fascist clique shrouding itself in social democracy like the many 'AES' regimes. It will come through the abolishment of that same state worship so much, and this could only be achieved through internationalism, that's why for example one of the underground parties in Iran has a branch in my country and is focused on expanding to other countries so when revolutionary conditions arrive the proletariat will act as one body in delivering a deadly blow to the capital. As for productive forces, if 19th century Britain was developed enough to have a socialist revolution, so is modern Iran.
>>2302911 Iran has gone full circle in terms of capitalist development, it's deindustrializing now thanks to the decentralized of neoliberalism. Iranian workers are the only ones standing in the way of this. It's not an uncivilized feudal shithole like you're framing it.
>>2302916>in the way you seemingly threw it around, means liberal ie conserving the status quoexcept im explicitly contrasting "actually progressive" with liberal progressivism by defining it as sovereignty and development
>It's not an uncivilized feudal shithole like you're framing it.I didn't say it was, i said that a revolution that maintains sovereignty under a national bourgeois incentivized towards development would be progressive compared to the status quo, but that a revolution for "human rights and democracy" would not be progressive compared to the status quo, because it would exacerbate and entrench
>deindustrializing … neoliberalismif there was somehow an atheist resurgence and you had a right wing trump or putin guy but anti-religious who wanted to "make iran great again" and build up iranian industry and connect different parts of the country together economically that would be progressive, but if you have a bunch of human rights protestors who just want to overthrow the government so they can have free and fair elections under capitalism the cia is going to come install some wall street exec and that would be about the same or worse than the status quo
>Marxian historical progress won't come about through a fascist clique shrouding itself in social democracy like the many 'AES' regimes. It will come through the abolishment of that same state worship so much, and this could only be achieved through internationalismthose are also historically progressive but the precondition for them is the development of productive forces capable of maintaining the ideal society that you worship so much. aes dont worship the state, the state is an unfortunate but necessary weapon that the one class uses to suppress others, and in the case of aes that is the working class represented by a communist party suppressing the bourgeoisie. as you say end goal communism must be international so aes states are in a holding pattern until other countries get their shit together. while the state exists, there can be no freedom. when there is freedom there will be no state. first you build freedom then the state can go
>>2302898>shouting?
>stuff like thisis there a link for those quotes? what is meant by right-wing nationalist? its odd to include right-ring and nationalist together. shouldn't the communist revolution be for the nation? if the protests are calling for vague democracy and human rights that is no more left-wing. they could be against neoliberalism and still fine with capitalism, which would make them also right wing.
>>2302948what do you mean?
do you need the quotes on productive forces too? we can bring lenin as well he is much more explicit
>>2302964>phul sapport basic package (if you'd remove any of these i'd kill you and hide the body, basically)dprk, cuba, china, vietnam, lao
>understands how the world works awardbelarus, russia, iran, palestine, formerly syria (rip 💔), venezuela, nicaragua, serbia, sahel states, among others
>toxic sludge (if you add any of these you're automatically terminated)amerikkka, jizzrael, cuckraine, kkkosovo, separatists in the taiwan province/tibet/xinjiang, /pol/and, EU bureaukkkrats, perfidious albion, among others
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