>>2371516It still sucks as a flag
>>2371519Yeah, the flag is overrated. I don't like the Christian symbol.
>>2381332It’s better than the union jack in the corner with a bunch of stars
albo put a south african jewish ghoul in charge of investigating antisemitism and guiding policy and to the surprise of literally nobody she's laundering israeli zionist talking points and foreign policy objectives as independant findings. really love the constant slow-burn corruption we inherited from being a neoliberal former colony.
AUSSIES! De-cuck yourselves from Anglo-American cock and become independent! The Southern Hemisphere needs you!
The South Africa-Mauritius-Australia will be unbeatable!
We will have our own space program
Our own nuclear weapons
Our own Olympics
Wake up and we will bury imperialism!
>>2371516Not an Aussie but that flag looks racist as fuck. It should probably be banned.
What's the major left wing party in Australia?
>>2387201The internet doesn't even know if I'm Australian. GL,IB7P.
>>2392906It's a good flag.
But it's a different flag with a different meaning.
>>2393143>left wingNot a real concept. Learn to use specific words, comrade.
>>2393503NTA, but that was a good video, thank you.
In the spirit of its line of argument, what material/class interest do the following parties represent?
>Labor>Greens >>2393503Stop spammkng your garbage video. Youve been doing this for at least two years.
>>2396683Not mine (that lad doesn't even sound Australian), and I'll stop it when people no longer need it. I pray for the day I can post PDFs instead of Basic Concept 101 videos
>>2400332why did you post this?
>>2408739Not sure what quality you were expecting from something called "Radical Online Leftist Pipeline Podcast".
>I don't know why I keep listening to these deadshit trotsI know Jordan is with a trot group, what about the others? Tom definitely wouldn't be. And plenty of the stuff you said are very far from trot positions that even CAlt probably wouldn't say them.
><israel is never going to change without external pressureWhy do you think a Zionist project will change much at all? The state admitting there's a genocide is a win for anti-Zionists, but isn't going to do much directly about the Zionist invasion of Palestine. It's mostly useful as opportunity at agitation by calling out their delay, hypocrisy, and that we were right since Oct 7 and earlier.
>constantly shitting on australia [snip]It's vital to end the state that rules over us, the Commonwealth of Australia. Australia (as opposed to Australians) should be ruthlessly shat on.
You're definitely right on some of the other crap, especially the nonsense orange lines at the end. I really hope they didn't imply those because that would be embarrassing.
>>2413410Australia is a cringe country, you're expected to be a bogan dickhead or you're a 'gronk' or 'ethnic'.
>>2413410what is he listening to?
>>2413419AI translation of a Hitler speech
It's not uncommon to encounter it on social media algorithms if it detects your political persuasion
History time!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_(New_South_Wales)Take a guess at their ideology before you click.
I wonder what will happen with the Sydney Harbour Bridge protest tomorrow. With a bit of luck it will have a decent turnout.
>>2414677Amazing work comrades. Spot me there on the bridge!
Mad respect Australians. Absolutely massive march despite the pouring rain.
>>2414677For real, I thought the organisers were being optimistic with their tens-of-thousands call. I'd been to some of the biggest PAG rallies before and they were big but not massive like this. Didn't help that their $$$Fascbook$$$ announcements had only two hundred reactions.
My mate said the rear end of the line started moving about an hour after the march started. Media are calling it in the hundreds of thousands, we're talking a few percent of the Sydney population going out in pissing rain.
It was interesting to see many of the more conservative unions and Labor Right are now deciding oh yes we support this now. Pricks.
>>2415681
This situtation only happened because dumb police gave contradictory instructions in the first place.
Does anyone have good news sources for Aotearoa / New Zealand
>>2415684What instructions? (I didn't pay attention to cops stuff and couldn't hear the announcement or get a text.)
I did hear some people online blame them from going south->north instead of north->south, leading to a bottleneck.
ABC reports:
>The acting assistant commissioner Adam Johnson said: “I can honestly say in my 35 years of policing, that was a perilous situation. I’ve never seen a more perilous situation.”
I've been more concerned at concerts. There was enough room to dance on the bridge and no-one was rushing to the end.
I was telling a friend yesterday, I'm glad so many people came out and saw the ridiculous police reaction. Hopefully that gives them perspective next time the cops call something dangerous.
>>2415684Exactly, police created the perilous situation and did nothing to help co-ordinate the crowd. I was in the middle of such sense crowd and everyone was so confused what was happening, police standing on the side and not telling us anything. If they wanted to direct us they should've had some megaphones to give directions, they said fucking nothing. Only the fucking stupid helicopter blasting announcements which no-one could even understand
big well done to all the people in sydney. israel won't survive scruitiny like this, it's going to cease to exist.
i am glad, unironically, keep it up sydnians you sick cunts.
>>2417451Noone thought a 2 state solution to South Africa, allowing the white supremacist ethnostate to continue to exist, was an acceptable option. Why is a 2 state solution to Palestine considered acceptable
>>2417451you aren't signing shit
>>2417451Were you seriously expecting anything different? Its not like the Commonwealth of Australia is going to go any further than neutrality against an allied, honorary-Western country. Anyone who thinks our governments will ever support a one-state, non-Zionist Palestine is delusional and ignorant, as ignorant as someone who thinks we can just ask the government nicely to give the land back to the indigenous peoples.
The Zionist Regime is materially useful to the US and its imperial partners. Our governments are only mad that it's being undiplomatic and proud of its war crimes.
>>2417539I am literally picking up a quill right now, fag.
seriously, stay hydrated and chill out. Fuck, there's a lot more NSN around these days, eh?
>>2426072They climb out into the daylight every few years, cause some media storm then hide again like cowards, not convinced there's any more than there's ever been
>>2428486It really says something that the weirdo NSN autist thinks that's "a lot". The poor fag's never been in an actual social movement before.
We have
secondary-tier Trotskyist orgs holding events bigger than that. The Nonce Network aren't even a paper tiger, they're a paper fukken poodle, hollow underneath their online "optics" fluff.
>>2426138l. mao
>>2439399I really love the pathological, malignant narcissism here: head of governments of other countries that have no obligations of loyalty in any way, shape or form to IsraHell are somewhat
traitors by reason of just putting up a bit of theatre about maybe doing a platonic recognition of a Palestinian state which doesn't exist in practice and wouldn't do anything factual to stop the genocide in Gaza.
The Labor government is an example of actually existing social corporatism.
>>2437626>hollow underneath their online "optics" fluffin terms of influencing the broader culture, online is all that matters
>>2440998uygha it doesn't even represent its own party let alone unions or guilds
>>2441019ah yes as carlos marks famously said "influencing broader culture will change the material conditions".
>>2441020The productivity summit is a clear example of a tripartite system.
>>2371516So what's happening with this March for Australia shit? Fizzle or sizzle?
>>2447075 (>citing OP post >shiggy)
My assessment from looking around and talking to anti-Reclaim lads:
Fizzle, but act like it will sizzle and stamp that fucking ember out early.Facebook
>I hesitate to go off facebook event numbers because in my experience they mean absolutely nothing. The 300,000 strong March for Humanity had 2.4k on fb say they were going. Plus, I fully expect the March for Australia social media to be botted to hell given how this campaign started. Nonetheless, fb has Ade, Bris, Can, Per, Mel and Syd events with around 500-700 each marked as "Going" and about double as "Interested". So I'm preparing for the possibility of it being up to 1000 cookers in some cities.Specific aspects:
>horribly organised GRASSROOTS and ORGANIC>various state organizers have been confirmed as pro-violence white nationalists with links to NSN (Bec Freedom) or open neo-Nazis (Bender). I don't know how much their audience hear of this, but Sky News reported Bec apologising for her pro-violence comments and various big conservative/anti-vaxx e-celebs have called to boycott the march ("Big Choccy", Joel Jammal, Triccy Triddy).>also it's on the same time as the annual Sydney Marathon lolPrior cases
>These things generally get like a few dozen people. Conservative events consistently fizzle. Let's keep it that way.As of the 25th, counterrallies have been organised in Bris, Can, Mel, Per and Syd. Syd has the concert one which is actually going to counterprotest and join the Hyde Park PAG one later anyway, so pick that one.
the iran accusations are straight up retarded and don't make any sense…
>conveniently timed anti semitic attacks
>provide cover to push through new anti-democratic laws
>whoops they're all fake
>they were perpetrated by international criminals
>description suits the netanyahu reigieme alot better than tehran
<six months later
>move to recognise palestine
>netanyahu throws a shitfit
>AIJAC pressing backbenchers
>ayyy turns out we were lying about those fake antisemitic terror attacks, they were real and carried out by Iran not "criminals"
>ignore the convenient timing of the announcements
>ignore the bootlicking of israel
>ignore that we could have pointed the finger at iran the first timw we "solved" the case but chose not to for no reason
>ignore that the IRGC has nothing to gain from these attacks, everything to lose
>ignore that israel has staged infinitely more false flag attacks on diaspora jews than iran
bob carr is the only bloke in labor that isn't a lying dog.
>>2440985apparently their former leader cameron brodie hall was in Temple ov Blood(Run by a Fed Informant) which is a nexion(offshoot of Order of nine angels, Tob also inspired 764 and published(with Fbi Funding btw) books endorsing the r*pe of chidlren, so that explains the NSN's Pedophillia
>>2450101Cameron Brodie-Hall was leader of the South Australia state cell. And while it has relevance, it doesn't explain the NSN's systematic pedophilia advocacy and cult behaviour. This isn't some outside infiltration as neo-Nazis want to claim. Consider core Nazi themes like their obsession about birthrates and their open misogyny. That leads directly to their child marriage/sex slavery belief. We can't give the fringe esoteric minority credit for that.
>>2450134Thanks for clarification, I don't know much about Nsn
>>2426138this is accurate bc one anon is reading an empty fucking book that has no words in it
>>2450134they also have a creepy little nazi kibbutz in greensborough, outer melbourne. guarantee that's gonna turn into centrepoint on centrelink in no time.
>picinb4 someone gets fined for nazi symbolism lol
Been getting good feedback when leafleting the upcoming rallies tomorrow. Did get one lib saying "I'm in support but I'm not big on conflict" so I suggested they go to the passive Hyde Park march instead of the Alfred Park counter-protest. But ffs I yelled internally. Conflict comes to us whether we like it or not. Now is always the easiest time to stamp out the embers.
>>2450152No worries, and good thing you mentioned them because it does often slip under the radar that a ranking member of their group is into esoteric ToB crap.
>>2451769First I've heard of a Melbourne one, got any sources for me to look into?
>>2453215>The shadowy March for Australia movement is calling on protesters to “take our country back” and “stop mass immigration” with rallies planned for Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide and Canberra. Extremism expert Dr Kaz Ross says while many attendees might be well intentioned the event is likely to be hijacked by far-right sympathisers. i was wondering how long it would be before those marches from Europe would end up being re-created in Australia.
Kinda begs the question how long the multiculturalist neolibs can hold out here, because fundamentally the same main problem Europe, the UK and Canada has with multiculturalism (no party ever going to an election on the promise of increasing immigration rates and winning) is the same in Australia, then to make things worse the 30 year long mining boom means mass migration was never necessary to begin with, so its undemocratic AND based on a lie, whereas the euros actually did need some form of immigration so its undemocratic nature could atleast be rationalised away
>>2453215there was a 4 corners report that was sickeningly sympathetic to the nazis and their families that had a photo of either the greensborough place or an earlier incarnation of it. there was a channel 9 report that doxxed. the ringleaders. @whiteroseau has a ton of public domain research. @slackbastard keeps tabs on them too.
they wanted to buy a farm out in ballarat, but I don't know if they followed through on that because they are clearly siphoning off the donations they solicit on telegram for personal expenses.
Reminder to go to the counterrallies on today.
>>2454269Yeah I'd heard about the Ballarat properties they were trying to buy and I check out White Rose Soc and Andy often. Was the Greensborough place just a groomhouse where they drink raw milk, or an actual agricultural community (like a kibbutz). Because the second one is what I thought that comment was suggesting and it seemed unlikely.
>>2454285they've got women and kids living there, and boneheads on meth and steroids filtering thru so it's progressing past grooming male teens into extremist violence and likely turning into a DV hotspot.
>>2453537>Kinda begs the question how long the multiculturalist neolibs can hold out hereForever
>because fundamentally the same main problem Europe, the UK and Canada has with multiculturalism (no party ever going to an election on the promise of increasing immigration rates and winning) is the same in AustraliaThere was a bit of an lol moment a month ago where albo raised the international student intake by 25k, even the plebbitors were pointing out he waited until after the election to do this.
yo all these fascists look deep fried yo. get off the glass barbie, get over your divorce, and get yourself right and off the streets.
>>2454681 (me)
also what kind of boomer takes their asian wife to a fucking nsn rally?
>>2454685>also what kind of boomer takes their asian wife to a fucking nsn rally?A working class one that thinks he’s at Cronulla riots 2.0 instead of a nazi rally
Looks like the rally was a fizzer. Greatest shame that we didn't get to see Avi Yemini and the NSN attack each other.
sewer:
"Today we're gonna rally in good faith and without masks!"<nek minute*at least half a dozen nsn tards assault Avi Yemini's security guard on camera*
oops
https://xcancel.com/AltMediaWatch/status/1961969919895191907>>2454780>hasn't been one day since the nazi rallies and already we have cunts on leftypol posting videos trying to make lebbos look badSMDH
>>2454920/auspol/ officially stands with palisten and against lemanom!!
signed
/auspost/
>>2454843this is the silver lining I was looking for bro. thanks lege.
>>2456265>ABCFirst article I've seen so far to even mention the pseudo-Germanic runes, despite so many having pictures of the megaphone.
Absolutely disgusting ignorance in mainstream media.
>redditI gotta say, it's a horrible look but a fair point that someone can just walk up and have a photo taken. Jordies really should be recognizing that emblem but I can give benefit of the doubt for that. Not like it's a fukken swastika.
But if jordies doesn't nip it in the bud and say "didn't know the cunt and hope he gets curbstomped", then fuck 'em.
this kind of chaos would be ripe ground for fascism anywhere else, but I reckon the ultimate result is going to be a further entrenchment of Albanese's mandate to lead. there were more gronks than I expected but they're still nothing compared to the broader popular movement for palestine.
>>2456265>>2456268right now jordies is downplaying the NSN involvement, but he's also trying to sheepdog the ignorant "post cronulla yumcha" bogans into labor (arguably a decent objective). it is what it is, jordan is not his fans.
we got here from fallout from howard stirring up xenophobic racism against refugees, while also doubling skilled migration to get cheap economic growth and tear down the unions. it's not _only_ a bunch of gronks getting brainwashed by fascist propaganda from the yanks.
labor is not showing any leadership in regards to stopping xenophobia, or getting us out of american imperialism. they are pushing thru cost-benefit evaluations per employment sector for skilled migration. the gaaaardian libs are opposing labors reforms, and the capitalist press is amplifying the gronks to run cover for the ruling class.
>>2456271what a dickhead! key question is: did he accept that turnabout is fair play or have a fukken teary?
>>2454920They haven’t produced enough new memes for another season of Fat Pizza so fuck em.
>“This isn’t about me. It’s about the other people in the community who Nazis target – like multicultural people, LGBTIQA+ people, First Peoples, and Jews.
Commiesisters forgotten again.
>>2457565no: they're big and they're cheesy.
>>2459380rookie mistake. Always take a couple of books in your bag if you might be doing anything that will get you nicked.
>>2459380are they getting any more than a couple days in lockup? that fake ass, pig ass, sewer rat never did a stretch for bashing that black security guard outside channel 9 despite being caught in 4k. never did a stretch after bashing those hikers. how good of a lawyer do you actually need to record yourself doing the hitler flounce saying "I am a white supremacist terrorist leader" thousands of times and plead multiple hate crimes down to basically nothing with parole conditions over your head?
is the intelligence he offers even worth letting the bastard be such a public nuisance?
>>2461371You gotta fucking laugh at the "prospect of rehabilitation is good" crap.
Get a fuckin expert witness to outline the cult they run.
"Hello my name is Federal Agent Jorden, Pls commit Acts of Violence that is revolutionary, I would never commit crimes as I am a fe.. a Important revolutionary, pls die or go to jail for the fe.. for the Revolution, Thanks Idiot" - Purper Pingers
Reminder: if someone tells you to commit violent acts they either enato you dead or in jail or are a fed who wants you in jail
>>2474949If you wanna do proper accelerationism, you infiltrate and subvert
take over Law Enforcements to have the police turn a blind eye to you illegal activities
Seize Small Towns to act as base in which you run it as a Mafia/Cartel
Don't just commit random terror attacks, they may succeed and have a High death count but will destroy your movements reputation and potentially kill it for good
be a Intelligent Terrifying Accelerationist not a Dumb VIolent one
>>2474946What part of the video do you
actually disagree with?
Pingers clearly isn't talking about random terror acts, nor even telling someone to commit PotD.
I think another important note which made Luigi special was that the target was one which actually made for great socialist propaganda, because fucking no-one likes healthcare CEOs. Contrast this with the assassinations of state leaders, royalty and police chiefs in the golden age of PotD, and contrast it with Kirk. These targets alienate workers overall (regardless of whether a portion of them support it).
It's not a strategy for success, but selective agreeable assassinations could well be an effective propaganda tactic, in the same vein that Free Breakfast for Children was.
>>2474946>>2474949the video is so choppy I'm concerned it might be a misleading edit. I'm not a fan of saltyjordies, but I wouldn't assume he'd be advocating for violence.
in the manifesto marx wrote "we have no compassion and ask no compassion from you". there's no point making excuses for violent individuals and desperate actions in the same way it's futile to try to find solace in the official reports and rulings that are dutifully published in the wake of colonial or fascist violence.
I don't believe that the popular ressentiment that mr. mangione repesents to yanks actually exists in australia. we're getting fucked over but in ways that are largely imperceptible to average people:
> schools being gutted< but grammar school is more affordable now> medicare shrinking, hospitals being sold< but I actually save money going private> mineral wealth being stolen, barely any economic planning for the future< FIFO paychecks> racist media that lies by implication and omission< I don't read murdoch I read fairfax< I'm not being influenced I'm there for sports/celebs> toothless unions< but I'm on the award< but I need my cash in hand job< but I'm special< fifo paychecks> no treaty, black deaths in custody, vandalism of sacred sites< but the negligible cost of a few days lead time or another form is completely unacceptable< but the news told me they want police interventionsimporting seppo problems and seppo politics is why the Liberals are fucked for another two decades. please nobody commit the same fatal mistakes as those idiots.
>>2477325>I don't believe that the popular ressentiment that mr. mangione repesents to yanks actually exists in australiaWatch the documentary
Sicko. Our health system, for all its problems, is a miracle compared to theirs.
I can't think of anything comparable here. I can't think of any person you could kill that would get cross-spectrum support. Maybe Gina Rinehart, probably not? You wouldn't get that celebration from killing a land investor or a shoddy builder.
>>2477544the hancocks are only in the media for being messy CUBs: daddy's affair with the housekeeper, and gina's court battle with the other nepo babies over the family trust. gina's cooker politics never even rate a mention.
there might be space for a neo-unionist chauvanism: using pushback from the gaza genocide, war on terror, and the spread of hitlerism/trumpism amongst australia's patrons to educate people about how the old unions secured our standard of living and how neoliberal imperialism is eroding them at home and abroad.
we're somewhat snookered by a complete lack of materialist and historical education amongst middle australia. most people I talk to don't even know who John Pilger is.
took a trip to vietnam and I no longer feel like I'm taking crazy pills. they have problems like every society but they're dealing with them, effectively. there are new schools being built everywhere I look when our education budget gets blown on adding new lanes to grammar school swimming pools. new industries are being fostered in regional areas when in australia the last four generations have been uprooted to the cities. I open up the news and existential threats like climate change aren't being swept under the rug: they have specific targets, timelines, responsible ministries, and review dates and criteria. not a fucking single wasted line about pub tests or culture wars.
they are so fucking happy, and social, its unreal.
they think australia is more advanced, I don't know if they understand how broken our politics is, how concentrated wealth is here, and how low our economic complexity is. I get the impression the public of both nations are preoccupied with how things are now and not how they're going to be in 30 years.
>>2491130Vietnam was one a vibrant and beautiful place before it was utterly destroyed by the United States in one of the greatest acts of genocide in human history and turned into a slave colony for US business interests where children in sweatshops sew Reebok shoes together for 10 cents an hour.
>>2491243that's a gross oversimplification. their gdp is split half and half between public and private sectors. with multiple primary and secondary industries.
the textiles industry has progressed pretty far from what naomi klein described in the shock doctrine: surplus production capacity is being used by independent vietnamese brands that retain 100% of the royalties (dico being the most well known internationally). vietnam is already a fashion shenzen that designers go to to polish designs for production.
even crazier they have a car manufacturer: vinfast. they make electric cars, bikes, and aircraft. we really need to hold labor's feet to the fire on this one: toyota and ford fucked off, and holden packed up. still can't comprehend that there's no more commodores.
>>2491243>Vietnam was one a vibrant and beautiful place before it was utterly destroyed by the United States It was full of frenchmen.
>>2491130Sure our future is fucked but currently if you have a full time job here you are better off than the vast vast majority of Vietnamese.
>>2491971you're missing my point, which is about the future and not the present.
I'm not sure I see yours: vietnam has been subjected to decades of colonial slavery, genocide, and harsh sanctions. the only crisis in australia is that it's full of racist fuckwits.
Thoughts about turning Australia in a Republic?
>>2493755interesting you bring up the police strikes. the police union used to operate out of trades hall in victoria. the reason why they left is uniquely australian:
> the socialist unions let activists use meeting rooms in trades hall for free> indigenous rights are completely fucked in australia> session is booked to dicuss black deaths in custody> police union hears about this< shit! covering up black deaths in custody is our only job!> they call the trades hall council to protest> trades hall council actions their protest and cancels the meeting< nobody can find out about this> session is booked for a weekend> everyone shows up> booking is missing> nobody can find the key to the room> nobody told them about the coppers throwing a shitfit> but this is australia so fuckups like this are normal< fucking typical ay? she'll be right> run the session in the lobby, it goes OK> police union is furious< oi wtf, this is discrimination, we're suing, and leaving> trades hall council is confused< we literally cancelled it tho> police union drops the dispute and leaves before the whole shitshow makes the papersup until this point the wharfies, the labourers, and the coppers that bashed them shared the same building for union matters. can't imagine how fucking awkward that would have been.
>>2493755No. Pigs might be paid by capital but their surplus labour isn’t appropriated as profit.
>>2493755Police officers are proletarians. They are (generally speaking) class traitors, because a law enforcement agent is beholden to enforce bourgeois law, and so unless they are a double agent or until they resign, they are a powerful counterrevolutionary force.
While they have a material interest in supporting capitalist regime, I do believe that the military, police and other state actors, along with other classcucks like neo-Nazis, are not inherently some lost cause and have proven able to flip. That doesn't mean it is (always) wise to attempt this, or that all are capable of flipping. But the bottom line is they are valuable for their knowledge, skills, and having one less enemy to fight, so it's important for us to cautiously have doors open for them to explore.
Interviews of modern (US) military who flipped to socialism:
https://soundcloud.com/eyesleft (check the Wake Ups series, including a Green Beret)
Interviews of neo-Nazis who flipped or deradicalised:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7DUJbRJIKYI'd be interested to see a police officer one, all I know of is this article by an anonymous author claiming to be an ex-cop:
Confessions Of A Former Bastard Cop>>2493758Fuck the monarchy, but really, I don't see how it would help (yet). Federation just empowered our own bourgeoisie to perform regional imperialism. I'd say the US has more real power over us than the UK.
Did you know?: Bullying works.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/social-suicide-uni-liberal-club-laments-failure-to-attract-new-members-as-political-party-taints-image-20251008-p5n0x8.html>“There are a great deal many students at University of Melbourne who are interested in what we do at the club … they say, ‘We like what you do and we might even, to a point, have a centre-right ideology but … to be affiliated with anything Liberal would be social suicide,’” Bowie said. It was particularly true for female students, he added.
>“I have had a few friends who have been interested in joining but have been hesitant due to this,” [Ruby Corbett] said.>It didn’t prevent her signing up but, “after I became more involved with the MULC [the club], I’ve had friends basically demonstrate this intolerance with me and basically disown me”.
>Corbett said the party was often wrongly equated as a “far-right extremist group”, especially on the politically polarised university campus grounds.>“The Victorian left-wing bubble wants an enemy to project their own fears and derangement onto, and the Liberal Party is their choice,” she said.tldr people dont want to hang out with sentient garbage
>>2511447>The commemorations came as Victoria Police investigated a graffiti attack on a billboard in Melbourne, which was daubed with a pro-Hamas slogan.Oh my god! A graffiti ATTACK!! This is horrible!
https://redantcollective.org/2025/10/20/an-account-of-the-police-riot-to-protect-fascists-in-melbourne-naarm/
>cops do everything they can to provoke a confrontation >anarchildren provoke them >cops bash the shit out of protestors in responseFucksake why can’t you retards be normal
>>2387213you americans are annoying as fuck.
>>2387202but then we can't be in Eurovision…
The organisers of the counter-protests, including pseudo-left groups such as Socialist Alternative, have sought to channel opposition back behind the Labor government and the official political establishment. The Sydney counter-protest was endorsed by both Young Labor and the Young Greens.
In reality, Labor is centrally responsible for the growth of the far-right. It is scapegoating immigrants and refugees for the housing and social crisis. And by inflicting social pain and the pro-business agenda it is creating the conditions for far-right forces to make an appeal.
Labor is also overseeing a far-reaching onslaught on basic democratic rights, centred on its attempts to criminalise mass opposition to the Israeli genocide of Palestinians in Gaza and its own complicity.
The assault on the right to protest was on display in Melbourne. Police have accused some members of the counter-protest of initiating violent clashes. Footage posted to social media, however, shows Victoria Police officers indiscriminately deploying capsicum spray at crowds of retreating protesters. Police also used flashbang grenades and there are reports of at least one protester being shot with a rubber bullet.
After the rally, Victoria Police Commander Wayne Cheeseman gave a frothing press conference, denouncing purported “left-wing” violence. Prominent comments in the press, including the Melbourne Age have demanded the curtailment or abolition of the right to protest.
That underscores the point raised by WSWS and Socialist Equality Party campaigners at the counter-protests. We explained that the rise of the far-right, as well as growing authoritarianism by governments of all stripes, is the response of the ruling elite to mounting social and political opposition amid a breakdown of capitalism.
The fight against fascism requires the independent mobilisation of the working class, in opposition to the entire political establishment, including the Labor governments, based on a socialist program.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/10/21/rxbd-o21.html>>2529915the rank and file in labor are good kids. the caucus is fucked. there's no good party for people with serious political ambition so they land in young labor or some shit tier libtard NGO on the basis that Labor can form government, and lobbying is better than working for the greens.
It's up to saltyjordies to turn the Victorian Socialists (and their franchises) into a political force, but I'm concerned it's going to be another infighting ridden shitshow because he's a millenial and a trot, making him 4X as prone to self sabotage.
>>2532657One of these dudes interrupted our reading group and yapped about the platypus reading circle for like 10 minutes and left.
Also I think they're Trots.
Go on dole. That is what I am doing.
I worked for government for like 6 months and realised the government does not give a shit about how many people are abusing their services; it's mainly welfare fraud they care about which costs them millions and is in the hands of the very few.
In my country of Australia, there are more people on JobSeeker Payments than ever. But there is also absolutely nothing stopping a communist party from committing welfare fraud by putting in false applications in some fake person's name and collecting it from an ATM.
>>2532657That such a piece was published a year after the beginning of the genocide, with tens or even hundreds of thousands of Palestinians murdered, brands Platypus as a group that is supporting a 21st-century Holocaust as it takes place.
That has included a modern-day equivalent of Holocaust denial, with Platypus founder Chris Cutrone having ridiculed claims of a genocide in February, declaring it was “not at all clear” that ethnic cleansing was “the current Israeli intent.” Cutrone made those statements months after Israeli leaders had repeatedly declared their aim is to cleanse Gaza of Palestinians.
It is not only Palestinian resistance that is targeted by Platypus. In its October 7 anniversary piece, the group tars the masses of workers and young people who have opposed the atrocities, including in the US and the other imperialist centres, as dupes who are associating themselves with “antisemitism,” “reactionary Islamism,” “misogyny” and “fascist morality.”
That is a slander and a justification for the police-state crackdown that has been waged against opposition to the genocide, by the Biden administration in the US and affiliated imperialist governments internationally. It is a signal that Platypus will join with the incoming Trump administration in an even more frenzied attack on anti-war opposition.
The positions of Platypus are so openly pro-imperialist and right-wing, it is no exaggeration to say that they could have come from the US State Department itself or the Australian Labor government.
>>2532861unimelb is for rich cunts, and rich cunts from overseas. makes sense they'd make a faker socialist group than salt. they can't have an affiliation with any socialist party in australia because none of them are zionist.
there is one group they could be from: there used to be a zionist socialist youth group in melbs that did eco activism and learned about indigenous culture and went camping and stuff like that. real innocent, except they were founded by and dedicated to jabotinsky the butcher.
can't figure out what the name was because they've disappeared from the ZFA website but I'm pretty sure they disaffiliated 6 months into the genocide when they got a good look at naked zionism because they stopped updating their website. platypus might be a new chapter of the same movement.
>>2532898>can't figure out what the name was because they've disappeared from the ZFA websiteweb.archive.org?
https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-sack-club-mascot-after-walking-out-of-young-fans-bar-mitzvah-c-20434351>be carlton footy mascot>asked to do bar mitzvah>no worries>having a good one till you find out the event is an IDF fundraiser>walk the fuck out>wealthy club owners are attending the genocide bar mitzvah>they have a teary>get fired>get smeared as an anti-semitethis is gonna resonate with the trades. they fucked with footy. there is a massive opportunity to wedge by debating whether the club should donate to the IDF. really bad optics for the zionazis that forced the expulsion.
>>2535592Tradies are bourgeois.
>>2536058at this point I don't care how zionists become pariahs just that they do.
I don't know why people get so pissed about the Australian Frontier Wars. Sure, I might be willing to admit that certain elements of Queen Victoria's administration may have harboured slightly anti-indiginous sentiments that go far even for me, but that doesn't mean the various tribal groups can deny Australia's right to exist. These savages are so frequently attacking our settlers. I heard one say the other day that "From the Yarra River to the Tasman Sea Shall Be Free," which is obviously genocidal, as there are a ton of Australians in this area and they have no connection to any other nation. Where would they go? And I don't get why these Wurundjeri, Boonwurrung, and Wathaurrungs get so pissed off. This is obviously not an equal fight. Aboriginals surround Australians in every direction. Why can't they just go live with these Jagera and Turrbal peoples in the desert? The northern savages don't seem to be helping the southern ones out enough, why is it always our responsibility? I read in the Herald Sun the other day that some Aboriginals scalped babies! Babies! You can condemn the land seizures but not scalping babies? These activists seem to be holding Queen Victoria to a standard they never held Pemulwuy to when he was slaughtering innocent Bendigo settlers. They must just want all the Australian people dead. Again, you may have certain issues with the Queen's administration, or even every monarch ever crowned, but this doesn't mean Australians have inherent problems (the Aboriginals certainly do, I haven't heard one condemn the latest scalping). You can criticise certain politicians, and I agree, I'm even a Labour voter, but you have no right to question our peoples right to exist. There is no other Australian nation in the world. Why do you want us, out of all other people, not to have self determination?(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
>>2536058Thanks, wsws. Retarded analysis as always.
>>2537078But this is clearly ironical?
>>2539499becuz ur not based for based one party labor system
>>2539499To be fair to Jordies most people don’t know how corrupt our cops and pollies actually are. If he was a mainstream journo his boss would have stopped him publishing the story that got him firebombed.
Maybe this will be he redemption arc.
>>2539516I *highly* doubt he'll change his views. He'll find some way to rationalise it and go back to sucking labor's dick without thinking twice - hell, I don't even think he'll make the connection that the system he's spent so long defending is the same one that tried to kill him, and the same one that's completely indifferent to his attempted murder. Who knows, maybe he thinks Labor money is worth risking his life for.
At best, his experience can serve as an example: the state doesn't give a fuck about you. If you get in the way of the affairs of the rich, no matter the evidence, no matter the crime, they will kill you. No matter who you are, no matter who you know. No matter how loyal you are to the state - even if you're Jordan Shanks - if you get in the way, they'll throw you aside without blinking.
>>2538395Shut up SAltie. We know what kind of sexual predators you harbour in your party.
>>2537078Retard mods why was user banned for this it's hilarious satire!
>>2539499Is there some new Jordies thing that's happened or are you talking about the shit from a few years ago?
Ok I have to do ask, are there comrades in the Doctors Union here? i'm seeing some very lefty imageboard coded shitposting in some union chats and want to see if anyone is here.
>>2539499>Why is he so fucking retardedIt's easy to internalize Labor mythology, when you compare the record of Labor vs LNP on policy nuances.
>>2551222Not me, comrade. Solidarity from another industry union.
Welcome to share the bants with us, redact it if needed. Imageboard culture leaks into the mainstream more each day so wouldn't be surprised if they were just discord.gov users or old meme-loving fucks.
>>2551483thanks comrade, solidarity to you as well.
I won't share but they were dropping "tankie" type meme videos and using terms like "glowie" and "fedposting". The background is a frustrated rank and file dealing with a conservative leadership - a tale as old as time.
>>2554110nine-fairfax malding as usual.
>>2554820I guess that explains why bukele is running a concentration camp.
>>2554110Yeah of course they want us to believe being aggressive to fascists is bad
Provocative take: NSN's Sydney photo-op going ahead was a good thing.
>cops publicly exposed as incompetent or compromised
>impatiently targeting Jews (strategic L)
>one has already been fired from an IT job, another 'under investigation' (less funding for the movement)
Obviously their majority aren't doing mask-off ops, especially those with higher-paying or sensitive government-contracted jobs. But attrition on their foot soldiers is real.
also laughing at one of them for this absolute statement:
>“You people want us unemployed, kicked out the street, want our family broken up and my newborn to starve,” he said. “All because I disagree with you politically. What you try to do to us personally is far worse than any of our general political ideology.”
SMH publishing this quote because they know no-one will take it seriously.
https://victoriansocialists.org.au/news/electoral-registration-updateThis is the saltiest thing I've read in a while.
>we cant register our favourite party name. can you, uh, stop existing please? just fold into us.It's perfectly fine to ask and explain, but the writing style of the statement is just petty.
>>2563778this is going to be like the 8th time the governments let the nazis run around for the sake of pushing through some anti-protestor law or precedent
Like they didn't even pretend to try to stop them this time
>>2558409maybe liberals want them homeless and unemployed. I want to make sure they always have jobs. employment so stable they never leave. jobs that are vitally important, that will make everone thankful they have them. jobs that show nazis can contribute to a better world. jobs that make their kids proud of them.
specifically:
>picking irradiated fragments out of the desert sand in maralinga>hosing down and disposing of all the asbestos in wittenoom SAlt back at it again with another retarded post:
>Bashing a few fascists […] is the very definition of performative. It is pure street theatre, a chance for small groups to feel tough and radical by acting out their pseudo-revolutionary fantasies
There are valid arguments against the black bloc anarchist adventurism, and that's none of them. It's frustrating that they could have actually written a good article and they ruin it with hyperbolic nonsense.
from redflag.org.au/article/police-are-getting-more-violent-but-black-bloc-tactics-make-things-worse
Well, if it makes them feel any better, some idiot is posting to reddit an article of WSWS taking a worker's death as an opportunity to union bash.
Any details about this apparent new split in the CPA?
>>2568027aussie unions need a bit of a bashing. they've been toothless since the accord.
police control the pitch and tenor of any demonstration. if they wanted peace they could have petitioned to shut down the fascist march like they did the palestine ones but they welcomed them.
Far-right watch: the neoliberal think tank director platforming ethnonationalists
>Dan Ryan is determined to bring together the “notoriously fractious Right” in Australia. His strategy of choice is a podcast. Hosted there are LNP politicians, “conservative” academics, and a colleague of self-declared Neo Nazis.
>For almost a dozen years, Ryan has also been a director of the Australian Atlas partner, the Australian Institute for Progress (AiP) in Brisbane. In a side-project, Ryan hosts a podcast with several questionable guests.
>One is Hugo “Auspilled” Lennon, who organised the “March for Australia” rallies alongside overt and violent Neo Nazi Thomas Sewell. That group is in the process of creating the White Australia political party, with an agenda item to enable the “mass deportation of people of Jewish faith”.
>Lennon has embraced “white ethnonationalism” to the point it even disturbed far-right influencer Charlie Kirk. It was after that encounter with Kirk, covered in detail on the Australian Neo Nazi’s “news” platform”, that Dan Ryan hosted Lennon on his podcast.
>It is not surprising that Ryan hosts so many guests on the topic of immigration. The podcast in question is titled the National Conservativism Institute of Australia Podcast. NatCon, as it is known in the Global North, is a nationalist ideology that substitutes faith for race.
>The grandly named National Conservativism Institute of Australia is a three-man operation. The youngest partner is Jordan Knight, who appears semi-regularly with Ryan on the podcast. Knight is a former One Nation advisor and suffered humiliation in a Media Watch exposé of his Migration Watch Australia as a solo influencer operation.https://theshot.net.au/uncategorized/far-right-watch-the-neoliberal-think-tank-director-platforming-ethnonationalists/
>Atlas Network, formerly known as Atlas Economic Research Foundation, is a non-governmental 501(c)(3) organization based in the United States that provides training, networking, and grants for libertarian, free-market, and conservative groups around the worldhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Network >>2574299>it's realsociety of the spectacle
>>2574299IMAGINE
A DYSTOPIAN FUTURE IN WHICH ANTHONY ALBINOSE
BECOMES
PRIME MINISTAH
>>2552699The west should be collectively grateful that Lukashenko is only in charge of Belarus. If that Union State proposal went through back in the 90s with him as president we would be living in a very different timeline right now.
The Eureka Initiative is an American Communist Party (Haz cult) associate.
Probably deeper connections, I just haven't dug any further because I don't see the point.
Some basic evidence:
1) Their official subreddit /r/RedAustralia has an American Communist Party member as a moderator (/r/FamousPlan101). pic1rel
2)
a) Their official website, lists the Eureka Collective twitter account as a friend
b) Their official reddit account talks about the relationship of the EC to the EI. pic2rel. While the EI account correctly points out that one account on twitter generally doesn't represent a community (see also: /leftypol/ twitter account), this account is listed as a friend.
c) pic3rel
3) An /r/AustralianSocialism member alleges Eureka Initiative members initially met through "MAGA Communism" Discοrd.gov servers.
>Interestingly, the CPA (M-L) Central Committee has officially expressed "revolutionary greetings and solidarity to The Eureka Initiative".
https://cpaml.org/post4.php?id=1750637407Whether out of ignorance or alignment, it's a sign of negligence that leaves the Australian worker movement open to $eppo e-grifter influence.
>>2584219is that a bundle of sticks on the bottom left lmao holy shit
In the 2025 federal election's senate ballot, VicSoc ran in VIC, SocAll ran in NSW, QLD and WA, and the SEP ran in NSW and VIC.
Between them all, they totaled 116,896 first preferences across the four states. In these four states, a total of 13,935,046 valid votes were cast.
Of the voting population in NSW, VIC, QLD and WA, 0.83% (1 in 119) voted first senate preference to an explicitly socialist party.
Looking a little deeper, in the electorate of Melbourne, around 4.00% voted for VicSoc plus 0.08% for SEP (1 in 25). In the electorate of Sydney, around 1.07% voted for SocAll plus 0.13% for SEP (1 in 83).
https://xcancel.com/WhiteRoseSocAU/status/1998189853826289765
<Antifascist alert Telegram channels - join and share the links with comrades and friends <Melbourne: t.me/AFAAlertsNaarm previous channel was censored, please resubscribe<Sydney: t.me/antifaalertssydney<Brisbane: t.me/antifaalertsmeanjinNaarm (Melbourne) channel has been newly recreated. Gadigal (Sydney) channel has been newly created. The bot mentions a Woolongong one with no activity this year. Meanjin (Brisbane) channel has occasional activity.
>>2591443Exercise utmost caution in these chats. They'll definitely be infiltrated by fascists themselves
>>2591556I don't use Telegram but I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter since they're channels and not groups, and I'd assume that only channel admins can post.
>Reactions are anonymous in channels, because followers are anonymous, unlike groups, where you can see who's included in a group.Good instinct though. Being security-conscious is important.
>>2591622Looks like there are plenty of Telegram to RSS services online so you can get the feed anonymously without making a Telegram account. (e..g
https://tg.i-c-a.su/ )
Well fuck. Prepare to get ratfucked fellas.
well then…
Greetings Australian comrades, a humble Mauritian here.
Wtf happened on Bondi Beach?
>>2596208Too soon to know the motives but a shooting went down.
10 people are dead.
>>2596212two guys are muslims no? isnt it also a chanukah festival/celebration?
Who else is looking forward to another round of "antisemitism" laws?
>>2596215>two guys are muslims no?I haven't seen the attackers' religion reported anywhere.
Do you have evidence, or are you just being a cunt?
>>2596224cuz one of the cunts name is naveed akram and theres photos from facebook of this guy being educated in islamic scripture (obviously not the theologians fault but)
>>2596218Not me, I'm looking forward to Zionist groups exploiting a tragedy and implicating Jewish people in general for the Zionist Regime.
>>2596228Ah sorry mate, forgot to refresh the ABC page.
>and theres photos from facebook of this guyProbably the one, although I've seen eager internet detectives get this shit wrong before so I prefer to wait before making claims.
>Officers are now raiding his home in Bonnyrigg, which his family has owned for a year.inb4 booj
>>2596232lol no need to apologise just cant wait for sydney nsn chapter to try and instigate cronulla 2.0. gonna be a really great few months ahead :|
Heyyy auspol gets to have a busy day for once!
>>2596234>just cant wait for sydney nsn chapter to try and instigate cronulla 2.0. gonna be a really great few months ahead :|Speaking of which, this was overshadowed by the Bondi news but they've picked Sydney for their national gathering on 24-26th Jan.
>>2596241Well at least they're not blaming me yet.
I wonder if the Special Convoy to Combat Antisemitism will finally comment on an antisemitic attack for once.
>>2596241this has never happened before and it happening now is proof positive that israel, mossad, and the idf make jews less safe.
>>2596254you know, if israel was kicked out of ME and had to move somewhere, australia isn't the worst place for them to go. Would you guys be ok with that and take one for the team? Just put em in the outback somewhere?
this is just depressing
>>2596259the british empire briefly considered dropping a bunch of zionist cunts in the kimberly to genocide the blackfellas.
>>2596215most likely some pro-palestine arabs that have gone schizo
>>2596245>>25961312026 is gonna be a fucking shitshow
bunker down, lads. The "fuck around" era has ended. The "find out" era has begun.
apparently one of the shooters got disarmed, but he just went and got another gun and went right back to shooting people
The shooters also had IEDs set up on the beach which is pretty crazy for australia
its like one of the muslim terror attacks france gets
Islamist retards lmao
>>2596398>apparently one of the shooters got disarmedName's, according to news outlets and Australian media: Ahmad al-Ahmad was shot twice by the attacker and he is currently undergoing surgery.
Picture: the man who tackled the shooter.
Full video of the event, where the two shooters were taken out on the bridge. interestingly, the guy who got disarmed ran to the bridge and started to shoot again.
The police hasn't ID'ed the shooters yet.
If the hero name is Ahmad al-Ahmad, and the shooters are simply native Aussies, the hasbara media will have heart attack.
>>2596639an Islamist saved Aussie lives. get mad.
>>2596377The fuck around era has ended and our movement is still a virgin. What a world…
Apparently, they had firearms licenses and 6 registered guns
>>2596736May he be showered with blessings
>>2596639they just killed more zionist operatives than iran did
>>2596856Palestine is saved!
>>2596736The muslim that saved people wasn't an islamist retard.
>>2596856I know this is probably trolling but i've seen a lot of leftoids who gallantly encourage ethnic and sectarian conflict because they see the world in a simplistic leddit good identity vs bad identity
>>2596869See: the Druze-Bedouin conflict in Syria when the pastiest agarthan leftist who can't pronounce a word in Arabic suddenly pronounces that one or both of those groups should be genocided after reading 1 twitter thread
>>2596861>Palestine is saved!it's not but now zionists in australia who were already driving a massive repression campaign will go on overdrive, overplay their hand and alienate even more people like mother israel
>>2596869>>2596872If I may: are these people online, or do they exist in the actual workers movement? I would be very concerned if it were the second.
>>2596861>The muslim that saved people wasn't an islamist retard.you reaaaally wanna go on about how the semantics work here, huh.
I am confident that any Muslim person see their religion as the religion other should profess.
knowing Christians like I do.
>>2596788hasbarists on suicide watch.
The dude killed a 10 year old kid, wild how Tyler mogs all these other adventurist losers
>>2596889
is ahmed supposed to be used only by muslims
My family were in the park when it happened. All Ok. Waking up this morning and appalled by all the usual suspects using this to further ideology. I'm actually floored by the chutzpah of the Israeli's in claiming that it was the Australian government's recognition of Palestinian statehood that caused this.
>>2596916Good you hear you and your family are safe, comrade.
>>2596918
I mean if you can't trust the mossad who can you trust?
>>2596788creates a pretty awkward situation
Multiculturalists on plebbit will be trying to claim victory while standing upon a pile of dead jews because a good muslim stopped a mass shooting by bad muslims and will hold him up as a hero (the bad muslim got another gun once he was disarmed and kept shooting people for another 10-20 minutes)
chuds will still want to deport everyone
Everyone else will be bewildered or pissed off that the israel palestine conflict just played out in bondi
AEDT
Ley urges Albanese to act on Jillian Segal’s recommendations
Ley is asked whether the opposition would support changes to tighten gun control laws, but won’t confirm either way.
The opposition leader says the government needs to act immediately, but on gun control says:
Families are waiting by the bedsides of their loved ones across hospitals in Sydney today and my heart breaks for all of them. With that in mind, this is not a subject I am going to discuss today.
Ley says Australia as a whole should have done more over the last two years to protect the Jewish community, and urges Albanese to act on Jillian Segal’s recommendations.
I am going to say that the government has been warned, comprehensively and unequivocally, about the rising tide of antisemitism in this country and, more importantly, what we could and should be doing has not been taken on Jillian’s recommendations and it needs to be.
I do stand ready to support the prime minister but I strongly, strongly urge him to pick this report up and to act immediately to implement its recommendations.
—
Silly media it is incredibly insensitive to expect us to comment on political issues like gun control at a time like this. By the way the Labor government isn't protecting Jews.
>>2597102>Silly media it is incredibly insensitive to expect us to comment on political issues like gun control at a time like this. only gun control reform that could be made is banning the button press shotgun one of them used, the other guns they had were regular old bolt actions rifles
The Australian race war will be between arabs and Jews, other races need not apply
>official death and injury count is now at 40
Holy shit
>>2596743our movement woefully underestimated the organisation of the far-right, and now they and the powers that be are all essentially doing "neolib parliamentary democracy to fascist state any% speedrun" at breakneck pace. The thing that really gets me is that in order to fight back we need to be ready to confront them with a level of force that no one in this country is willing to do (except the fascists), bc "something something political violence bad, this isn't who we are" meanwhile they go off and lynch aboriginal women and no one stops them. Shit is bad and it's only gonna get worse.
Reminds me of how woefully unprepared the CPC was at the time of the Shanghai Massacre. Even then, they were a million times more ready to throw down than we are. We have so much work to do, but I'm holding out that things won't fully go to shit for a couple more years
>>2596788my relief of finding out that the guy who stopped them was literally the only muslim in the shire
not like it's gonna stop the usual retards, but it denies them of another avenue to attack (and it means we'll have shitlibs going "b-b-b-but the guy who stopped them was also a muslim!!! checkmate fascists!!!" while cronulla 2 rages on)
>>2597111They could remove target shooting as a legitimate reason to own a gun.
>>2597221
I’m going to tell Mossad it was FriendlyJordies
>>2597216they can just switch to a recreational hunting license, all you need is permission to hunt on crown land which costs like $16 a year, or a letter from a farmer which costs a 1 off fee of a crate of 4x gold beer
>>2597212>but it denies them of another avenue to attackthe good muslim vs bad muslim thing will very quickly turn into our version of "we just need a good guy with a gun to shoot the bad guy with a gun" like the americans have with their mass shootings and will get old here extremely quickly, the average normie isn't going to be very happy that 40 people got shot on bondi beach by a father son muslim tag team duo because of palestine regardless of if another muslim tried to intervene or not
>>2597222
I wish he'd get drone striked.
>>2597238I meant hunting as well. If they restricted gun ownership to farmers with live stock and professional hunters there would be very few guns in the community.
>>2597238I'm sure, but thank god it wasn't some white dude like they're trying to claim
>>2596939 >>2597221>>2596939Fuck it, I'm gonna say it. There's at least a 70 percent chance this shooting was a false flag of some sort. The coordinated disinformation campaigns, the statements from the Israeli government, the fact that a bunch of high profile Zionists were present. This shit seems way too convenient.
>>2597380big if true
- Australia was already in Israel's crosshairs before w/ that stunt about "yeah this homeless man 100% set this synagogue on fire as a hate crime orchestrated by Iran"
- Israel, once again, piping up suspiciously quickly this time too (and blaming Iran)
- Hannibal Doctrine is a thing that exists (and Israel uses it regularly)
- Australia has drawn global attention for the scale and momentum of our Palestine movement, which is especially interesting given how little traction activist movements typically get here
- Australia is easily where the chains of the US empire are tightest, and thus the weakest
Isn'trael and the US consider Australia to be a vital link in the chain that upholds the Atlantic Axis (ironic, since we're not in the Atlantic). If we break from them, they lose a fuckload of money (from mining plunder) and their last major "partner" in the Southern Hemisphere. Might be huffing on the hopium a lil bit but I've always thought Australia has the potential to have a much larger impact on the western order than we might think for a country with such a small population. If anything, the zionists and seppos think so, otherwise they wouldn't be so invested
>>2597394I don't think it's necessarily Australia's contributions to the US/Israel axis that is why they want us so badly. It's the implication of the potential we could have to undermine them if we were to break free.
It's not what we're doing, it's what they're afraid we will do if they don't control us
>>2597259>If they restricted gun ownership to farmers with live stock and professional hunters there would be very few guns in the community.this would disarm way too many people
You could almost get away with banning gun ownership for hunting purposes if this was another port arthur style massacre where some schizo went off his meds and killed 50 people, but banning hunting for non farmers, and therefore guns for non farmers, in the wake of a muslim terror attack against jews committed with bolt action rifles would risk radicalizing a hell of a lot of people into becoming anti-immigrant extremists
Of the 1 million people that own guns in australia, only 88,000 of them are famers, id assume professional roo shooters would be way below that, so you'd be considering the disarmament of nearly 1 million people because a muslim immigrant couldn't behave himself around the jews which would piss people off like nothing else. The vast majority of that 1 million would be people in towns and cities that bring out their family and friends on big camping trips too, so you'd be looking at seriously pissing off not just the gun owners themselves but their family and friends as well and you're now looking at the risk of turning upwards of 5 million working class people into anti immigrant extremists
The best option the government has here is to ban the button press shotguns to get the gun control lobby to shut up and call it a day, maybe ban the fancy switzerland straight pull bolt action 1 of the guys had as well
>>2597380>>2597394>>2597395copium overdoses
>If we break from them, they lose a fuckload of money (from mining plunder) and their last major "partner" in the Southern Hemisphere.we just signed a mineral deal with trump you schizos
>>2597459>The best option the government has here is to ban the button press shotguns to get the gun control lobby to shut up and call it a day, maybe ban the fancy switzerland straight pull bolt action 1 of the guys had as wellThe real answer is to quite literally tap all communications and finances for anyone that works in religious institutions. A pastor, rabbi, or imam should have no expectation of privacy if their words are true and may even convert the intelligence agent on the other side of the phone.
>>2597459u absolute gluestick how could you possibly come to the conclusion that that's what my point was
>we just signed a mineral deal with trump you schizos"we"? who tf is we??? we aint do shit porky signed that
look i'll break it down
>Australia seems to be, for whatever reason, very important for the Zionists and the Americans to keep on side>I'm not entirely sure why but if I had to guess something something China something something Oceania-Pacific region, also minerals ($$$ for porky)>Australia has easily one of the most active palestine movements in the west, only outclassed in frequency of protests and protest size by larger countries like Spain, only outclassed for large protests by Yemen>Naturally we've been on Isnotreal's shit list for the last few months>the Australian right is fractured between schizo nazis and the more establishment zionist-neolibs (who turn a blind eye/support orgs like Advance that're soft pro-Nazi)>The Australian right has always been fractured with the only uniting trait being "left bad", naturally Palestine is something they fucking hate but the nature of the movement (genocide is not cool) makes it hard to target>Per Hannibal doctrine and the fact that shit like this is exactly what israel did in the 60s to get jews to move from Arab countries to israel, there is a non-zero chance that Israel staged this as a false-flag attack: the goal being to crush the palestine movement>Mossad and Seagal have already announced their investigation, no prizes for guessing their findingsThere's something off about all of this. Either way, false flag or lone wolf attack, nothing good will come of. See ya'll on the streets on Jan 26, it's gonna be a shitshow I can feel it
>>2597517>Also of interest, someone in Tel Aviv searched for the shooter's name a day before. inb4 timezone error
>>2597519>Hannibal doctrineAre you talking about the Hannibal directive, which is where the IDF kill their own soldiers to prevent capture? Or something else?
>>2597517>so possibly Lashkar-e-Taiba involvement? i don't know enough about them but perhaps Islamic State Khorasan Province?
>>2597674There was a protest many months back when a synagogue hosted a closed event for one of the Israeli military tech companies, but also kept part of it open for locals. Protesters had to be down the road. One of the local Jewish women arrives in a keffiyah saying they wanted to visit their synagogue and the cops got bamboozled.
I think the visibility of anti-Zionist Jewish community members is important. The Jewish Council of Australia has done alright at getting into media (at least the centrist media I've read) and I'm glad this lady was able to get a quick statement to the media on camera.
Tim Cahill and that's it? Shame barbs
>>2597517>so possibly Lashkar-e-Taiba involvement?What makes you think that? Are all Pakistanis involved with Lashkar-e-Taiba? Its not like this needed extensive planning beyond two people. They probably just did this themselves. Its not difficult to acquire firearms, stake out a target etc.
>>2591443This has to be a joke. Anyone who uses the word naarm should be castrated
>>2596869People do this here too. Years ago leftypol was a bastion against identity politics, now half the cunts here are active promoters
That hero muslim man is more socialist than the nationalists multipolaroids here lmao
>Police have also stated that both of the gunmen had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State (IS) and that two Islamic State flags were found in their car.
How is it even possible to adhere to IS in the Big 2025? Even after their big fall-off, you still support them? wtf
>>2597837What's wrong with the word Naarm?
>>2597920Multi-polarism is antithetical to Australian nationalism ya dumbass. We are an Anglo-American colonial outpost in the Pacific.
>>2597517>>2597721>>2598262sounds like bullshit. the cops are going to want to place an international terror frame to justify the use of draconin counter terrorist laws and extend the sell by date of the war on terror. if the police had isis flags they'd forward photos of isis flags to their fellow racists in the murdoch press.
>>2598474>>2598503>feeding an idiot trolloi
>What's wrong with the word NaarmI can't speak to the specifics of each "Aboriginal name" used as a substitute for city names, nor to the various opinions of indigenous people towards using them, but on a basic level these cities didn't exist before colonisation. Aboriginal peoples didn't develop a word for a place which didn't exist, they developed these names based on territories or tribes which existed at the time, Naarm is not the same concept as Melbourne. Overlay these places on a map, picrel.
I'm only saying this in response to a question, I really don't give a fuck irl and just read the room, or avoid it by not using either name.
(to clarify, my objection is specifically to people using it as a 1:1 substitute for 'Melbourne')
>>2598675Leave the spicy whites and the Indigenous NGOites alone!
naarm is a perfectly cromulent word. it's used even more commonly in the radical left than by the libs that officiated it. debating its use is a tactic of distraction and consensus cracking.
>>2597102They're not gonna do anything to gun owners, this event will just provide Jilian Segal justification to go full 1984 and instill a zero-tolerance policy for Anti-Israel speech in Australia. With the implementation of draconian internet surveillance and censorship under the eSafety commissioner (who used to work for the CIA), complemented by our special envoy for Antisemitism, we're going to see a large crackdown on Pro-Palestinian activism.
They won't let something like the Harbour bridge protest happen again, and next year I guarantee you will see people arrested/investigated for "antisemitic rhetoric" on the internet as is standard in the UK
>>2598848jillian segal has no clout:
>she nuked her credibility in her first report (which was delivered late, unsourced, and copypasted from israeli propaganda)https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-10/antisemitism-plan-segal-strip-funding-universities-hate-laws/105515512
>she somehow lost even more when it came out her husband funded advance australia (a far right liberal party PAC and islamophobic hate group) out of the familiy trusthttps://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/calls-for-antisemitism-envoy-to-step-down-after-husbands-trust-advance-australia-donation/6997g0w6t
>she's an unabashed israeli nationalist zionist who does nothing but parrot the same kach and likkud talking points as netanyahuhttps://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/antisemitism-envoy-responds-to-bondi-attack-following-netanyahu-snipe/u8q9b88u4
>even Liberal owned and operated outlets like pedestrian are clowning on her for blaming the wildly popular peace marches for this attackhttps://www.pedestrian.tv/news/palestine-action-group-jillian-segal-bondi-shooting/her first tranche of recommendations were ridiculous and flatly rejected. her current tranche of even more reactionary reccomendations are ridiculous and will be rejected. her role as commissioner is less than symbolic, she has no authority over public policy and zero approval. if anything her appointment, complete lack of subtlety, and CV do nothing but discredit the israel lobby.
maybe one day there will be an antisemitism envoy who isn't a tone-deaf racist boer with stiffy for netanyahu and they could do some damage, but jillian segal is not it. please remember that anyone who takes the role needs to be endorsed by similarly unsubtle israel lobby groups like the ZFA and ECAJ and as such will be another extremist who's completely divorced from reality.
>>2598942Her public image has nothing to do with her clout, though. And if she has no power what is the point Albo creating and appointing her position? I also find it very difficult to believe eSafety legislation won't be used to their advantage. Zionists run rampant in tech
Look to the level of control Zionists have over society and speech in the US and UK. They want the same here, and are working actively towards it. The BS over the Iran embassy was a small victory for them, but the Harbour bridge protest and Albo's recognition of a Palestinian state are two steps back. I would be shocked if this shooting isn't used to give them their next win, as they never let a good crisis go to waste.
Add to that the fact israel has a budget of $725m to repair their PR, you can rest assured you'll be seeing them going for victory after victory in the next year
>>2597676*directive
wrong word my bad
>>2599007>Her public image has nothing to do with her clouther inability to cultivate a public image of competence and respectability is how her office is going to get restructured out of existence when this shit blows over
>if she has no power what is the point Albo creating and appointing her position?glad you asked. she makes overt racist overtures to zionists foreign and domestic so labor MPs don't have to. zionazis feel listened to, but she's firewalled off from the labor caucus. she's a political football that sky news and the far right can kick around with no consequence. bibi's propaganda network gets to quote her to their captive population to pretend australia is on side while she achieves less than nothing.
>Look to the level of control Zionists have over society and speech in the US and UK. They want the same here>israel has a budget of $725m to repair their PRaussies view speech taboos rather like xbox live achievements. this will not work. as a nation we need to meet a minimum level of kiss-arse to the anglo american empire but the man on the street doesn't give a fuck about that.
>I would be shocked if this shooting isn't used to give them their next winI think that's magical thinking. the zionist lobby wants shit that just is not possible. they will get gladhanded directly to jillian segals office, where they can get the crayons out and write their fantasy list of impossible policies, and when they're done? "great work pal! that's so imaginative! you know where that should go? straight to the pool room. hang it up next to your cert 3 in real estate."
>>2598474Anyone who uses this nonsense is despised by any non woketard. It represents the most ridiculous of liberal pipedreams, on par with men beating the shit out of women in boxing.
You want to be a communist and gain the support of the working class, majority poor white bogans, and you believe it helps to circlejerk aboriginal nationalism?
God liberals are so out of touch. I remember during the voice, a liberal friend of mine was convinced Queensland and WA would be the highest proportion of yes voters, as they have lived experience with aboriginals and would sympathize with them. Anyone with a clue, knows that the average Australian interaction with aboriginals is seeing them pissed out of their minds screaming outside a bottle shop. Who in their right mind comes away from that thinking they need their own race based governmental body? Inner city Melbourne liberals is who.
The working class wants clear evidence of material economic improvement, it does not want, inner city symbolic appeals to minority identity. They see through your pretentious moralizing and recognize the lack of substance.
>>2599494you're just a fucking racist mate. sure their community is fucked up, but it's fucked up because up until the 70s aboriginals weren't allowed citizenship, this meant:
>no labor rights, didn't get paid? get fucked>no civil rights, unfair eviction or victim of crime? get fucked>no representation, wanna change any of this shit or fight for your rights? get fuckedthey're the victims of a carefully engineered system of dispossession just as foul as israel's and it's remarkable how ignorant everyone is about how this shit happened.
>>2599531Yes of course their communities are fucked up. It's called capitalism, i.e. dispossession and exploitation.
How to fix it?
Abolishment and replacement of capitalist mode of production with communism. Not liberal moralist signalling and acknowledgements.
Nothing I said was racist you fucking clown, I said what people outside your inner city university town actually believe. If it's shocking to you, you are just displaying your ignorance of the situation.
Keep calling melbourne Naarm, keep getting laughed out of every town and pub in Australia. You are preaching to the choir, the NGO, PMC choir.
>>2599550dude you sound like a weirdo crypto fash entryist. I got over my cringe around the libs using naarm when I heard it blackfellas saying it at an invasion day event. if winning treats for racist hicks lead to reform then australia would have become a superpower socialist republic sometime between the 1930s and 1980s when the union movement was politically relevant.
>>2599531>up until the 70s aboriginals weren't allowed citizenshipi think that was debunked, the suffaregettes were whinging that aborigianls got to vote but women couldnt or someshit back in like 1910, i can't be bothered to look, i'm hoping you'll do it for me.
>>2599574nvm that was probably the state goverment before unification or something
>>2599574technically there was special case citizenship that came into law in 1944 but to get it you had to officially renounce your culture. true sufferage came in 67.
>>2599574it's messy
tldr
>Eureka Stockade happens>le solidarity forever>btw rights for all men means the natives too>most colonies enact civil liberties and laws about voting and land rights>oh yeh the natives are subjects of the queen so yeah they can vote too>federation happens>we changed our minds fuck you>doesn't get undone until the 60sbig mess, lots of differences on a case-by-case, state-by-state basis but that's the long and short of it
>>2599494Mate I'm not even from Melbourne and I don't even use the term in my daily life but you have some seriously rustled jimmies about this.
>>2599569This anon nailed it, stop putting your "muh salt of the earth white true blue working class Aussie battler" on a pedestal. The working class is not just white Aussie bogans and they don't deserve any special pandering. Where I live the most exploited workers are all brown with white people mostly in PMC or petty bourg jobs. Heaps of tradies are petty bourg.
You sound like a Jackson Hinkle type.
>>2599595I reckon the chop and change is worse: enfranchisement baits you out of culture and into the bantustan and then disenfranchisement traps you there working for nothing.
>>2598548update on this, the media got photos of the car with the isis flags in the windscreen so that wasn't completely made up. still weird because ISIS is notable for some weird shit:
>not fighting israel>destroying muslim countries historical artefacts>being the yanks favored government in Syria>fighting on the nato side in ukraine>>2597517muslims online are claiming that the son is the wrong sect: iran is mostly shia, pakistan is mostly sunni, but they're stating that the books in the background are salafi/wahhabist. wahhabism is a mostly saudi thing, and kind of anti-iran. the emirs are in coalition with bibi and trump but the population is less on board. apparently the authors of the books are kind of cooked. can't verify.
AFAICT: for people that can read arabic it's a bit like if a kiwi shot up an NSN event but they came from a white south african enclave and got photographed with a bookshelf full of racist apartheid books.
>>2600274update update: they're now saying the fam is from hyderabad india and not pakistan. still weird he went to a salafi-wahhabist school. even though salafism makes sense for ISIS, it's still bizarre for ISIS to attack zionists because they're famous for doing dirty work for israel, the USA, and the saudi emirs, and high profile attacks in the west that do nothing but provoke islamophobia. ISIS is literally at war with hamas and hezbollah.
>>2599569If you were at an invasion day event you clearly are interested in PMC nonsense. You want to appeal to inner city lefties that's fine, but stop calling yourself a communist
>>2600142You don't need to pander to hicks, but you need to have a message and bring material economic benefits to everyone. Nothing turns people away faster than pandering and symbolic gestures to minorities. All Australians are suffering and exploited, why the need to put the focus on aboriginals? Communism is a rejection of identity politics.
>>2600486>You don't need to pander to hicks, but you need to have a message and bring material economic benefits to everyone.>All Australians are suffering and exploitedStanding in solidarity with disadvantaged groups doesn't contradict this.
What exactly is your objection? Are you claiming the current socialist movement makes the majority of Australians feel excluded? Do you believe we're being insincere or symbolic in our support for minority groups? Do you propose we run an economism position to avoid alienating non-minority groups?
Honestly, I'm not even against starting more economic-focused protests, like a housing rally. I've been advocating for one. But I also don't see the contradiction with supporting the existing identity-based struggles and building links among those who are being activated/radicalised by idpol, rather than leaving them to the liberals.
>>2600573><he doesn't know national liberation is a necessary prerequisite to communismEh, I don't think it's a necessary prerequisite to a vanguard party achieving power. Why would it be?
>>2600589That essay would consider Australia to be a nation already. National liberation would merely be effective independence from the USA, and of legacy legal ties to the British monarchy (e.g. governor-general).
>>2600589I mean I know none of you will so fine, I'll do it
>??? but how is national liberation necessary for Communism???comrade how the fuck are you gonna liberate the proles on land that isn't even yours
as joey steel wrote:
<what's a nation?
>a nation is a community of people with a shared territory, language, history, and culture
<what's nationalism? where does it come from?
>nationalism is a type of chauvinism that arises out of frustration with the problems of capitalism inflicted on such communities, and is utilised by porky to his advantage - i.e. blame the immigrants rather than the capitalists (he gives the example of georgians hating armenians)
<what about groups that fit the definition of a nation but exist within the polity of a larger nation? like ethnic minorities in Austria-Hungary or Russia?<or, yk, pic related
>well, the contradictions of national self-determination will inevitably need to be resolved>thus, it is up to the nations in question to answer them, and choose between: autonomy, federation, confederation, or independence
>the national question needs to be answered bc it is a potent contradiction that porky can exploit to drive people away from the proletarian movement (for example: imagine if China had not answered their national question and never gave the Tibetans and Uyghurs autonomy? Yankee attempts at destroying Chinese socialism would be much more effective)
>conversely, the national question can be used as a lightning rod to unite people towards the proletarian movement(for example:
every communist movement in the third world ever)
within settler states (like ours) answering the national question is of vital importance, since without it we have no way to actually build a worker's movement that doesn't fall flat on its face since it fails to reckon with the original contradiction of "Australia"'s existence:
we're a settler-colonial state. At best, without answering the national question, we'll just end up recreating Zionist "socialism".
imo nationalism is always free points politically - people, naturally, want to feel proud of the place they come from and the communities they grew up in. Beating people over the head with the crimes of colonialism is useless unless we pair it with the promise of a glorious post-colonial future. The Eureka Stockade is a good place to start for inspiration, since they were the first to ever dream of something like that. Naturally, achieving this requires bridging the social-cultural gap between settlers and natives, and breaking down the distinction between "indigenous" and "non-indigenous". Again, the Eureka Stockade is a great source of inspiration, since that was the first time thousands of people from all corners of the world - including the local wadawurrung - pledged their allegiance to the cross of stars and, in that moment, ceased being whatever label they were and all became "Australian".
>>2600602you need to keep reading after that dipshit
>>2600609The counter argument to that is the Indigenous population is so small there could never be protracted fighting as in those European countries with three different ethnicities each being a third of the population, or in settler minority ruled countries. And that it is silly to say it would end as Zionism due to the population ratios and that the Indigenous have already been accepted as citizens.
So I don’t think the resolving the national question is necessary on practical grounds.
>>2600577it's racist patsoc bait from a shit tier troll that's trying to drive a wedge over indigenous rights so we never address the truly puzzling questions:
>why did isis shoot up a zionist event in sydney when they do israel's dirty work in syria, lebanon, iraq, and gaza?>why were the shooters indian, wahhabist, isis members when when each of those groups range from zionist to anti palestinian?>why have zionists and the far right been working together in the shire?>who stood to gain from this besides bibi? worst case he sells us more spyware, best case israel gets absolved of their genocidal war crimes.>police intelligence is claiming there's an isis cell, if isis is operating here wouldn't they be more likely to follow isis' actual policy, not the insincere anti-semitic propaganda?>were the identities of suspected australian jihadists forwarded to israel under our intelligence sharing deals? did we furnish them with a list of agents provocateurs?it's ridiculously dodgy. these threads need to be pulled on. Bibi did Bondi isn't totally implausible.
>>2600619colonialism and colonial resource extraction is the foundation of why "Australia" exists today. If you don't confront that as the primary contradiction that exists as the entire basis for the Australian "nation" to exist, then you will never be able to defeat Australian capitalism since you will never be able to understand why it even exists in the first place or how it operates. the size of the indigenous population has nothing to do with it. colonialism fucks us all over. it fucks them over more. the necessary goal is to find out why, explain how, and go from there. Only then will a proletarian movement even be remotely possible, only then will it be possible to drag people out of economism and realise the necessity of political power. If they do not see themselves as wholly part of the land - which settlers (white australians), at the moment, do not - then they will never be convinced to do anything about it.
>>2600609Good on you for the summary btw
___
> comrade how the fuck are you gonna liberate the proles on land that isn't even yoursI really don't see the contradiction here. The state of Australia controls the land within its borders. Morality aside, it's the state's land. And a vanguard party taking control of the state would inherit that land, like the Bolsheviks did with the Russian Empire, like the PRC did with Xinjiang (the RoC had recently acquired the Second East Turkestan Republic after the USSR withdrew their support post-1945).
The transitional state can liberate proles from capitalism, and as the state withers away, it will liberate them from the state itself.
Obviously its not ideal, but my point is that resolving nationalism is a useful strategy, not a
necessity. China isn't exploding just because the Uyghur nationalism question isn't fully resolved - the so-called autonomous region is being suppressed to avoid secession and promote a 'unified nation'. Yes, Porky is exploiting Uyghur nationalism! Resolving it would be one less division to conquer. But it wasn't necessary to fix every single problem before gaining vanguard power. In fact, I'd say it's utopianly prefigurative to assume we can eradicate all the idpol splits that Porky can exploit until we gain control of the state that fuels these divisions.
Again, I support moving forwards on resolving the national question, and I stand in solidarity with empowering indigenous peoples, but admittedly it's not necessary to resolve before the revolution.
>Naturally, achieving this requires bridging the social-cultural gap between settlers and natives, and breaking down the distinction between "indigenous" and "non-indigenous". Again, the Eureka Stockade is a great source of inspiration, since that was the first time thousands of people from all corners of the world - including the local wadawurrung - pledged their allegiance to the cross of stars and, in that moment, ceased being whatever label they were and all became "Australian". I wonder, does this suggest that indigenous independence movements and decolonisation promote disunity and frustrate the national question? Should it be opposed?
>>2600641>>why have zionists and the far right been working together in the shire?uygha what are you referring to here?
>>2600609>>2600672>comrade how the fuck are you gonna liberate the proles on land that isn't even yoursOwnership is a spook. Land isn't anyone's.
>>2600646Contradiction between whom? You are also forgetting that contradictions between groups don’t have to be resolved to mutual benefit. The proletariat could slaughter the bourgeois and resolve that contradiction.
And what does resource extraction have to do with it? The Soviet Union engaged in heavy resource extraction and destroyed many natural wonders and traditional life styles. This is just sounding like standard libshit.
>>2600641This is just schizo. You are saying it couldn’t be ISIS because they are Zionist controlled, and also that the Zionists are behind it.
ISIS isn’t Mossad in brown face. Even if it is likely that the leaders of several sections of it are agents of Israel, that doesn’t mean other sections aren’t carrying out independent action.
>>2600695no, these are clarifying questions. they had ISIS flags, but that only makes sense if they were delusional lone wolf attackers. if they were connected to ISIS internationally then that raises some red flags, ISIS has been working for israel during the gaza genocide, both as death squads inside of gaza and attacking hezbollah's eastern flank in lebanon.
it's a legitimately bizarre detail for geopolitics nerds, but not something the average person that only associates them with their attack in paris around 2015 is going to pick up on.
>>2600719Again, ISIS isn’t Mossad in brownface. Even when the spooks create radical groups out of nothing there is always an outer circle of true believers.
HTS in Syria is under Zio spook control but the average shooter in their security forces is a genuine Islamist radical.
>>2600695>>2600737>ISIS isn't mossad in brownfaceyeah, nah, bullshit. but even if they weren't there's another problem with the story: what's ISIS' motive?
<betray their financial backing?<avenge their gaza death squad?besides some stupid kids ASIO busted, all the other reports about their activities in australia have been financial: money laundering and straw purchasing assets and real estate.
therefore to assume they came up with this on their own and didn't square it away with mossad you're implicitly stating they were happy to risk the bank to bite the hand that feeds them.
but that still doesn't answer why: if they didn't get their shit rocked by ahmed al ahmed all they would have done is handed a big fat dub to Bibi.
mad respect to ahmed by the way. we'd be heading down a dark timeline without him. by showing that muslim blokes believe they could stop a terror attack unarmed he did a lot to demonstrate they're just like every other australian male.
>>2600783
Jolani got locked up in a CIA cock and ball torture facility and then released. He is 100% compromised.
Also you are wrong about Ukraine, they are literally just that retarded the liberasts running things can’t make sensible compromises. The neo-Nazi eastern branch of Azovites are more reasonable.
>>2600787The function of ISIS as a controlled opposition is to be maximally radical, but to mostly direct that against enemies of the US/Israel. If they started telling these wannabe martyrs “yeah nah mate don’t carry out an attack on the Jews in Australia” they’d be supplanted by other radicals.
In other words those running groups like ISIS have to accept a degree of collateral damage.
I think being forget that ISIS got it's funding from Saudi Arabia and Turkey in order to eliminate Shia and Kurdish elements from Iraq and Syria. Everything outside of that is outside of the scope of what they really care for.
>>2600798propaganda of the deed is one of the motives of all time but if that were the case wouldn't isis have claimed responsibility by now? put out a statement? they haven't. which is odd because they usually love claiming stochastic terror attacks.
this suggests the bondi shooters are copycats, but the feds have stated there's a whole cell of them. weird shit.
I watched the first 20 secs of friendly jordies video about Bondi. God I hate that guy.
He immediately pulls out the moronic take of "this is Australia, paradise on earth, these people broke our social contract by bringing their overseas problems to our shores.".
Forget that the guys are Indian, India has nothing to do with Palestine. Also implying that Australia is somehow completely removed from global affairs. Such a brain-dead take.
>>2600577Yes the movement should start and stop at economic relations. Identity politics is exceptionally divisive, it is like picking favourites.
Besides, economic and material benefits will disproportionately benefit those minorities you so wish to help. Point this out to those who are activated by racial or identity politics, don't drop the ball and fight for liberal policies as well.
Housing campaign is a great idea. Calling your fucking group chat Naarm, is like signalling you want more welcome to country nonsense on your flights or before games of football.
>>2600573You can't honestly believe we need some sort of aboriginal nation state to form in order to move forward, do you?
>I wonder, does this suggest that indigenous independence movements and decolonisation promote disunity and frustrate the national question? Should it be opposed?
Finally, the only poster in here who hasn't been brain poisoned by idpol. Yes is should absolutely be opposed. How can you build solidarity in the Australian workers movement if you are simultaneously proposing race based division?
This goes for all types of idpol. Literally cut idpol out of politics and appeal to what is common between all identities, capitalist exploitation.
>>2601122What kind of political work do you do in real life anon? I'm wondering what kind of political movements or projects you're a part of and how your experience has been?
>>2600691The contradiction between the native and the settler. Those who are invading a land from somewhere else to exploit and plunder it for their own gain, and those who are simply living their lives and trying to survive. Resource extraction was the primary reason for British invasion, not that bullshit of "oh we need a place to put prisons". Australia produces more than half the global marketshare of Iron Ore, and massive contributions (top 5) to Gas and other precious metals.
Today, this contradiction still plays out in gas companies destroying the environment - often in ways that are first pointed out by indigenous people. Bruce Pascoe's book Dark Emu is a fantastic read about how white people really don't know that much about this continent (in terms of agriculture and mining), and are only really just starting to learn what locals have figured out for 80,000 years. Landback isn't some moralistic bullshit. It has real, material, practical implications.
In Australia we have the unique challenge of dealing with the fact that natives are a minority, and the fact that historically natives and settlers weren't always enemies. Many accounts written by settlers in the early 1800s are very self-reporting and sympathetic to indigenous people, they often openly describe their own actions as unjust conquest and the indigenous resistance as perfectly justified. The Eureka Stockade also stands out for being an instance in which the rebels there made a point of insisting that Indigenous people be counted among men granted franchise and land - per the account of the rebels themselves, there could never have been a Eureka without Wadawurrung solidarity.
>>2601119>>2600672you phrase it like it's either/or. Either "they" get their sovereignty or… implying that "we" (cough, white australians) don't. This is classic example of the coloniser mindset that fanon wrote about. Talking about fellow Australians like that as if "they" are some "other" seperate from the rest of Australia - that is exactly the "separateness" I was referring too.
I'm not talking about simply dismantling the bourgeois state that exists here and building a soviet on top of it. That wouldn't address the meat and potatoes that are the foundational ingredients for this nation's modern inception, no matter how many times you dress it up or obscure it, you'll have to address it one way or another: the invasion and colonisation of more than 200 nations who still exist. My argument is based on reckoning with that fact but also acknowledging that there are 26 million other people who live here and have something resembling a unique culture and identity (as immature, small, and undeveloped as it may be compared to other "indigenous" nations like China or Germany) and have nowhere else to go. It's impossible to return to pre-1788, no one in the indigenous sovereignty movement literally wants all 250 nations to be recreated as microstates - but the present conditions cannot be kept.
Thus, the only way forward is the subsummation of both into a new Australia. Not either-or, but a syncretic combination of "white" and "black" Australia. Corroborrees and Cricket matches. The zero-sum thinking of "if there isn't white supremacy, it'll be black supremacy!" or, "if there is indigenous sovereignty, then there won't be white sovereignty!" is textbook coloniser mindset (as Fanon pointed out), but as it turns out - no, you can have your cake and eat it too. We can have both
(pic related). It's important to make more people aware of that.
Essentially: you can restore the sovereignty of indigenous nations whilst maintaining the unity of one polity called "Australia". That's what Plurinationalism is. To me, a plurinationalist Australia in a confederal structure is the only way to reconcile the need for restoration of sovereignty whilst also ensuring the unity of Australia as a state - if for no reason but to ensure newly-freed aboriginal nations don't get gobbled up by US imperialists.
The restoration of indigenous sovereignty would not be in a westphalian sense, in the work I've done w/ some folks at the tent embassy none of them want that. They much prefer something akin to what Bolivia has done: a plurinationalist confederation. This would not be dividing australia, but uniting it further - and, it would completely cast off any remnant of being a "neo-europe" and fully embrace an independent, entirely home-grown identity. We would stop being a colony and start being a nation.
In time, the the abolition of colonialism will abolish the distinction between "whitefella" and "blackfella", there will be no "indigenous" and "non-indigenous" Australians - indigeneity is a phenomenon that exists entirely within the context of colonialism. The principles of white supremacy and white man's burden have prevented Australia (and other settler-states, like Canada and the USA) from following the path of every other civilisation when people from one such place travel to another - they arrive, bring their own language, traditions, culture, etc etc; some of which is absorbed by the host nation and becomes another thread in the tapestry of national culture, the rest is gradually faded in time or becomes part of the unique local traditions of the new arrivals' descendants. This process happened thousands of times across Europe, Arabia, Africa, Asia, no doubt pre-colonial Australia, too. When colonialism is abolished here - Those who were "settlers" will become "immigrants", then "creole", and then, in time further, there will be no distinction between "settler" and "native" at all. It'll be like modern China - yeah, there's the Han, and Shang, Miao, and Manchu, etc etc, but at their core, they're all Chinese; ethnic differences are nothing but fine print, differing local traditions and culture are nothing but warmly celebrated diversity.
tldr landback doesn't mean white people get fucked over, it isn't moralistic noble savage libshit either, it has real practical implications for Australia socially, politically, and economically pls i beg of you all to read Fanon (and also Bruce Pascoe)
for whatever reason yossi "40 beheaded babies" landau has shown up in bondi to do media and "help" with search and rescue. no news as to how many babies were beheaded this time. glad protesting has been banned, it would be a real shame if the jewish community weren't allowed to grieve with dignity. 🫠
>>2601164Incredible effort post anon
>>2601164>you phrase it like it's either/or. Either "they" get their sovereignty or… implying that "we" (cough, white australians) don't.How do you plan on doing #landback without "them" having sovereignty over "their" land?
>>2601164>Bruce Pascoe's book Dark Emu is a fantastic read about how white people really don't know that much about this continent (in terms of agriculture and mining), and are only really just starting to learn what locals have figured out for 80,000 years.Quasi religious nonsense
>>2601911>How do you plan on doing #landback without "them" having sovereignty over "their" land?read the rest of the post, uygha
>>2602127tfw a thousand generations of blackfellas task themselves with learning everything possible about six plants/natural phenomena and six animals - totems - and naturally end up learning a lot about land management, which crops work best, ecology, farming, fishing, pest control, logging and mining over the course of 80,000 years but some cracker can step off a boat and go "nuh-uh"
>>2602194>tfw a thousand generations of blackfellas task themselves with learning everything possible about six plants/natural phenomena and six animals - totems - and naturally end up learning a lot about land management, which crops work best, ecology, farming, fishing, pest control, logging and mining over the course of 80,000 years but some cracker can step off a boat and go "nuh-uh"Because the crackers stepped off the boat and made the land so productive it can now feed 40 million people despite increasing the forested area of Australia from 15% as the aboriginals had it to 35% today, which is closer to how forested the continent was before aboriginals started burning it down each year
You are legitamently engaging in quasi religious nonsense here
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/nov/01/indigenous-cultural-burning-managed-australias-bushfires-long-before-colonisation-its-needed-now-more-than-ever-a-study-says
<The study found that during the early to mid-Holocene period, 6,000 to 12,000 years ago, the shrub layer in woodlands and forests accounted for about 30% of land cover. Indigenous cultural burning halved shrub cover to 15% about 6,000 years later. Since European colonisation, that figure has increased to 35%, the researchers found.80000 years and they got environmentally mogged by people that stepped off the boats 200 years ago
>>2602228said crackers also caused 65k extinctions and introduced species that completely destroyed native ecosystems, blundered through sacred sites that existed since the paleolithic and disrupted if not outright destroyed 250 nations. some of which greeted them in english because blackfellas had learned it through trade with indonesia.
don't give us this "greening the desert" bullshit. just fuck off.
>>2602228Unless you think the 15% figure was based and we should cause the biggest environmental catastrophe of the 21st century and destroy half of our shrub land so we can RVTVRN
>>2602238>said crackers also caused 65k extinctions and introduced species that completely destroyed native ecosystemsHow many extinctions do you think going from 30% bush cover to 15% bush cover involved LMAO
>>2602194>read the rest of the post, uyghaYeah, I did, and since there was nothing really concrete there I asked for clarification on how any of that is actually supposed to work. The wiki articles for plurinationalism and Bolivia are also pretty sparse on the details for how they work in practice.
Just looking at demographic information and demo maps for Australia, aboriginal people make up 3~4% of the population and aren't a majority anywhere. So
1. What lands are you actually proposing they get "back"
2. What is the nature of this not-sovereign sovereignty you're proposing
3. How is a minority population supposed to actually maintain that sovereignty in the face of a much larger, wealthier, and educated population
Because you say stuff like
>Resource extraction was the primary reason for British invasion, not that bullshit of "oh we need a place to put prisons". Australia produces more than half the global marketshare of Iron Ore, and massive contributions (top 5) to Gas and other precious metals. Today, this contradiction still plays out in gas companies destroying the environment - often in ways that are first pointed out by indigenous people.And so, okay, what does that mean then? That Australia is going to just stop extracting and selling it's natural resources? What is it going to do instead? Because it looks like mining is Australia's most significant industry:
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/industry-overview/australian-industry/2023-24So what exactly is this plurinational scheme supposed to bring anyone? You say this isn't moralistic noble savage shit, but then what is so essential in these indigenous people that whatever vaguely defined knowledge they have "about agriculture and mining" requires whatever "landback" procedures you imagine?
<greetings fellow aussies<I've come to the slowest thread in the forum<six months old<less than two posts per week<not to discuss current events of course<I desperately need to talk about how much I hate blackfellas<you guys should also hate blackfellas<they're counter revolutionary liberals or something IDK<pls, don't associate me or any of my posts to any other settler colonial genocide>>2602243self defeating argument. rate of extinction was massively accelerated by industrialization. this isn't even debated. if you look at any longitudinal study into a species, biological group, or ecosystem it gets fucked up around 1830, when we simultaneously:
>genocided the blackfellas in tasmania>gave the blackfellas in the murray darling smallpox>fucked up the riverina and the murray darling>wiped out the lowland subtropical rainforests in NSW>started paying farmers to kill thylacines>dredged ancient shellfish reefs for lime>destroyed grass and scrubland by herding livestock>ended cultural burning which began the trend of runaway bushfires >and introduced the prickly pearthe fact is ecological vandalism and genocide are inextricably linked. ecological science besides taxonomic cataloging was basically non-existent, and was informed by theophilosophical principles not data. colonists did an indisputably worse job managing australia's fragile ecosystems and biodiversity.
interesting sub note: statisticians love to plot the rate of extinctions, not number of extinctions (allegedly because it's less noisy and follows a clearer trend). when the rate of something increases linearly, occurrences increase quadratically. it hides a horrifying accelerating trend behind a boring straight line.
>>2602320>self defeating argument. rate of extinction was massively accelerated by industrialization. this isn't even debated. if you look at any longitudinal study into a species, biological group, or ecosystem it gets fucked up around 1830, when we simultaneously:Holy moly look at that goal post move
>half the shrub land and it’s natural ecosystems got completely demolished but youse killed things fasterLol ok
80000 years of environmental knowledge and they decide 6000 years ago it was time to destroy half of Australia’s shrub land and roast a billion animals and make god knows how many extinct, the previous 74000 years must have told them it was time for a change
>less than two posts per weekCan’t believe posts counts go up when people get into arguments, incredible observation.
>>2601164What a lot of effort for a load of rubbish. All that for what adds up to a symbolic nothingness. Paperwork and name changes while leaving the economic mode of production completely intact.
Let's redo Australia but legally recognize different races! Holy shit you are a genius anon, 1000 more words and you'll start the revolution!
>>2602238Holy shit you believe some absolute horseshit. I have never seen a case of noble savage so extreme
chris minns "in talks" about arming local jewish security group and suspected mossad cutout CSG.
https://www.deepcutnews.com/p/chris-minns-may-arm-jewish-securityalbo announces crackdown on "hate preachers" notably targeting religious preachers.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/dec/18/albanese-announces-new-laws-cracking-down-on-hate-speech-and-preachers-of-hate-after-bondi-beach-attack-ntwnfb>>2602348>Can’t believe posts counts go up when people get into argumentsposts went up because of bondi. you're the only one arguing. I don't even think you believe the shit you're spouting.
This is actually the most important discussion that I've ever been witness to on /auspol/. The Indigenous question, issue of sovereignty, land back, and how these would actually take place in practice is such a taboo that it's never spoken openly and critically about on the left for concern of being insensitive and accused of racism. The anonymous imageboard is the perfect forum for these ideas to get thrashed out.
>>2602540>The anonymous imageboard is the perfect forum for these ideas to get thrashed outdamn, you're right, I can't think of a better forum than one where drive by hecklers can post lies straight from quadrant, history wars, and andrew bolt. one where unfalsifiable claims of indigeneity can be thrown around trivially, and where we regularly have yanks, euros, and israelis pretending to be aussie.
we don't need to hash out all the details of landback: indigenous people have been more than clear about wanting a treaty. everybody already knows the gaping holes in native title. more than enough shit to go on with.
https://australian.museum/learn/first-nations/barka/native-title-limitations/fact is we can't make a good faith effort towards reconciliation because the anglo-usraeli empire won't let us. reform is blocked because we have to maintain indigenous policy with holes wide enough to fit freeways, deepwater ports, and gas pipelines. can't close the gap because it makes the only democracy in the middle east look bad.
it's all palestine bro. everything is israel.
>>2602564>treatyGreat. What then? Is Victoria on the way to some great postcolonial project?
Treaty is a great step but realistically what's the step after that
>>2602564And yet you're engaging. Stop being so triggered and actually front up to the questions. What does a postcolonial project look like in Australia? You have dodged all the very legit questions about this. It seems to me most anons here are actually engaging in good faith and trying to tease out an answer, you're the one that's getting so fucking butthurt about it. If you don't want to have a truthful inquiry into what needs to happen then go back to NGO land.
>>2602567>>2602572at the moment we're working on truth and reconciliation. it started with the yoorruck justice commission.
https://www.yoorrook.org.au/those guys were spun into a legally durable permanent council called gellung warl. there's a concerted effort to record suppressed history, and provide redress for historical and ongoing injustices.
notably they haven't pulled any punches WRT the culpability of the colonists, and are community lead. previous efforts like ATSIC were preoccupied with providing a rubber stamp, this body has a very broad remit of advocacy. are they perfect? probably not. they may baulk when it comes to curtailing industry. having said that a hell of a lot of indigenous issues are general issues: mining royalties, environmental care, rights to crown land, government transparency, inequality in the justice system.
>And yet you're engagingI refuse to let racist infiltrators smear the workers movement.
a) the situation of urban indigenous people can be addressed through socialism.
b) indigenous people who continue to choose to live on country will always have worse educational and health resources. It's incumbent on governments that profit from natural resources to provide sufficient services to facilitate indigenous people to live on country.
c) everything else is liberal virtue signalling.
>>2602670"virtue signalling" is a fascist pejorative for left populism that only works against liberals because they're legitimately insincere. marxists get to be right and righteous.
>>2602366holy shitlib levels of bad faith over here
however many words I wrote, it clearly wasn't enough to make it abundantly clear that such a vision of post-colonial australia is a socialist one, I didn't think you were retarded enough for me to need to say that
besides, the view of the indigenous sovereignty movement is similar - they are opposed to the principles of private property. I asked them that very bluntly and they gave me a blunt answer: No.
It was surprising to ask them about how they intended to achieve their goals, and they verbatim described Lenin's theory of Dual Power- despite them having never heard of him.
Your hostility makes it so painfully obvious you don't really have anything to say or objections to make. Just say indigenous people getting their demands met is scary to you and be off with it
>>2602796good post. hear hear.
>>2602308>The wiki articles for plurinationalism and Bolivia are also pretty sparse on the details for how they work in practice.Well, that's the exciting part. We have to figure that out ourselves.
>1. What lands are you actually proposing they get "back"All the lands they want, which is all of them. Every blade of grass, every rock, every grain of sand.
>2. What is the nature of this not-sovereign sovereignty you're proposingIf you want to know more about plurinationalism, I highly recommend reading the relevant chapters of the Bolivian constitution:
>Given the pre-colonial existence of nations and rural native indigenous peoples and their ancestral control of their territories, their free determination, consisting of the right to autonomy, self-government, their culture, recognition of their institutions, and the consolidation of their territorial entities, is guaranteed within the framework of the unity of the State, in accordance with this Constitution and the law.- Part 1, Title 1, Chapter 1, Article 2 of the 2009 Bolivian Constitution
The exciting part is that we obviously can't copy the Bolivian model 1:1, we have to figure it out ourselves, worked out in the fine print of our own Plurinationalist constitution. It's an extremely straightforward solution for a post-colonial Australia - indigenous nations are legally recognised and incorporated into the functions of the state and government, their cultures, institutions, methods and languages no longer remain some alien external thing, but become a part of daily life to all people within that country. The rest of the Bolivian constitution lays out where indigenous autonomy is superceded by the central government, and clarifies the specifics of the plurinational part of "Plurinational state of Bolivia":
>I. A nation and rural native indigenous people consists of every human collective that shares a cultural identity, language, historic tradition, institutions, territory and world view, whose existence predates the Spanish colonial invasion.>II. In the framework of the unity of the State, and in accordance with this Constitution, the nations and rural native indigenous peoples enjoy the following rights:>1. To be free.>2. To their cultural identity, religious belief, spiritualities, practices and customs, and their own world view.>3. That the cultural identity of each member, if he or she so desires, be inscribed together with Bolivian citizenship in his identity card, passport and other identification documents that have legal validity.>4. To self-determination and territoriality.>5. That its institutions be part of the general structure of the State.>6. To the collective ownership of land and territories.>7. To the protection of their sacred places.>8. To create and administer their own systems, means and networks of communication.>9. That their traditional teachings and knowledge, their traditional medicine, languages, rituals, symbols and dress be valued, respected and promoted.>10. To live in a healthy environment, with appropriate management and exploitation of the ecosystems.>11. To collective ownership of the intellectual property in their knowledge, sciences and learning, as well as to its evaluation, use, promotion and development.>12. To an inter-cultural, intra-cultural and multi-language education in all educational systems.>13. To universal and free health care that respects their world view and traditional practices.>14. To the practice of their political, juridical and economic systems in accord with their world view.>15. To be consulted by appropriate procedures, in particular through their institutions, each time legislative or administrative measures may be foreseen to affect them. In this framework, the right to prior obligatory consultation by the State with respect to the exploitation of nonrenewable natural resources in the territory they inhabit shall be respected and guaranteed, in good faith and upon agreement.>16. To participate in the benefits of the exploitation of natural resources in their territory.>17. To autonomous indigenous territorial management, and to the exclusive use and exploitation of renewable natural resources existing in their territory without prejudice to the legitimate rights acquired by thirdparties.
>18. To participate in the organs and institutions of the State.>III. The State guarantees, respects and protects the rights of the nations and the rural native indigenous peoples consecrated in this Constitution and the law.- Part I, Title II, Chapter VI, Article 30
Obviously a Socialist Australia would not adopt all of these provisions, but they're a great example to look at get a feel of what it looks like to recognise indigenous sovereignty within the function of the state. This "not-sovereignty" is actually sovereignty - there are other types of sovereignty than the westphalian one. This is a textbook example of a plurinationalist - nations within a nation - state. You have to remember indigenous Australians do not consider "sovereignty" to be in the same sense as the western one, just as their interpretation of "land ownership" is not at all analogous to the common understanding we have of private property or exclusive control/ownership. Those words are simply the closest english-language approximations we have.
>3. How is a minority population supposed to actually maintain that sovereignty in the face of a much larger, wealthier, and educated populationI have to stress this again, indigenous sovereignty
does not mean exclusive control over this or that carving out of the land. It will never mean "oh yes, this section of 300km2 is especially controlled by the [insert name] nation". We already have those. They're called reservations.
Yes, in a way sovereignty would just be symbolic, but in another way, it isn't. The elders and activists I've talked to have made it abundantly clear that exclusionist ideas of blackfellas and only blackfellas having control over "their" land - let alone excluding other (white) Australians - doesn't even cross their minds. Is it about special treatment of specific people? In some circumstances, of course, just as the colonial state today gives "special treatment" to those same specific people. But for the overwhelming majority part, it's about recognising Australia's historic roots and taking that history and its present existence into account of daily political and economic affairs. The fine print is something we'd need to work out on a case-by-case basis relative to the hundreds of nations that constitute this continent. A first step is recognising that Australia is not composed of seven states and three territories, but of two hundred nations, which like threads forming a tapestry, together form one country.
>And so, okay, what does that mean then? (referencing resource extraction)
>>2602320 anon here talked about it quite well. The elders I've talked to have made it clear they have no issue with the exploitation of Australia's natural resources, only who profits from it and ensuring it is done in a way that is sustainable and environmentally harmless; this is logical since obviously they exploited this continent for many hundreds of centuries before any white man did. What I find fascinating is the way they did it is completely unlike the development of economic assets in Europe, Africa, and Asia, and thus there is a materialist explanation of why Indigenous Australians did not develop private property or patriarchy… Engels would have loved to learn about it when he was writing
Origins of the Family. But that's for another time.
You forget that the colonial project in Australia is about far more than just removing indigenous people from their homes - it is about completely erasing their existence entirely, in a totally wholesale genocide. The erasure of an entire people - erasing language, history, traditions, practices, quite literally, as we all know, removing the colour from their skin. Acknowledging indigenous traditional knowledge would hence require abandoning the colonial project - since it would require acknowledging indigenous people in a meaningful, non-tokenistic way, which would imply that the "Commonwealth of Australia" as it exists is an illegitimate squatter on land it has no right to… which, of course, is intolerable for porky. It has accepted tokenistic morsels of knowledge here and there (e.g. backburning), but only where they don't threaten larger, much more economically important aspects of Australian capital extraction (primarily in the fields that interact with the land the most - logging and land clearing, mining, and agriculture), and such tokens are, of course, tokens that can be spun in a light that doesn't threaten the primary foundations of the state. If indigenous knowledge was more widely accepted and used, then it would be inconvenient for porky - obviously he isn't going to let protests from some pesky natives get in the way of his profits: for example, an Australia with indigenous sovereignty would not have allowed the gas project in the northwest to go through as it would damage and possibly destroy a nearby sacred site.
Additionally, the dissemination of indigenous knowledge would naturally lead more and more people being inclined toward the elephant in the room of land rights… which, of course, is a critically dangerous threat to the foundation of the Australian state as it exists at present: terra nullius.
Where treaties can be passed (like in victoria
>>2602567), they still exist within the framework of a colonial state - King Charles III is still the sovereign of Australia in a legal sense. If the good people of Naarm wish to oppose, for example, a woodside gas project-equivalent - how much do you wanna bet a treaty with their own murderers will help them? Just as austerity can destroy the gains of social democracy, a change in government or the coin-flip of a parliamentary vote is all it takes to destroy indigenous rights within a colonial state. Hence why only a Socialist state built from the ground up as recongising indigenous caretaking an inalienable part of the function of society can secure sovereignty.
Part of why I'm so adamant on the restoration of sovereignty is because indigenous people are. In the many days I spent talking to indigenous activists and leaders in my city they made it very clear - nothing but the total restoration of every single inch of land will suffice. No half-measures, no compromises, nothing but the complete reconstitution of the entire continent. They only have three demands:
1. Restoration of Sovereignty for all Indigenous Nations, the integration of Indigenous traditional lore (law) within the functions of the state.*
2. Reparations for damages and injuries incurred to persons and land from the crimes of the colonial era and justice for the victims.
3. Uplifting of Indigenous Culture, Traditions, and Practices to the same level of social importance and acceptance as "Western" culture.
*obviously on a confederal, case-by-case basis in respect to the differing lore and values of different nations, and with respect to, not replacing, the already-established common law widely used in Australia today.
It's been very interesting to work with them. They are also quite eager to create a new economic order based on their pre-colonial ways of communitarianism - Communism, naturally, is a logical solution to that, and the ones I've been working with are very open to the principles of Marxism-Leninism.
tbh im gonna need to write a more formal treatise on answering the Australian National Question rather than just answering questions here. It's hard to explain things coherently on a mongolian throat-singing shitpost board
>>2602540hey, someone had to answer it eventually. I still remember reading uncle joe's writing on "hey what do we do about nations that are within bigger nations?" and my mind immediately went "hey, that's just like in Australia!" I've been hooked on Communism ever since. Best as I can tell, no one has ever really tried to answer the Australian National Question before - how do you decolonise a land where the colonisers are the majority? Turns out, there is a way, we just have to be the first to figure it out.
Of course, the trots will never accept it, because that would mean accepting that their arch-husbando was right and their mascot was wrong (lmao)
Even beyond the grave, the father of nations picks up one last w
>>2602906How do you decolonise a land where the colonisers are the (overwhelming) majority?
Well, the question does not really arise. There is nothing to decolonise in that case. All one can do is make sure the colonised minority have equal rights in every aspect with the colonisers. That is too simple. Far from a perfect answer. Because it is not. The moment the mass of aboriginals were killed, the possibility of a perfect answer vanished.
Even with equal rights in a crude legalist and constitutional sense, it is of course the descendents of the colonisers who will mostly run the show. And the descendent of the colonised will have to run along.
Yes. There is no other way. You cannot decolonise Australia, America, NZ and Canada. You could with South Africa because the colonisers were a minority. And even then, it was not economic decolonisation. But that is for the South Africans to decide, how and when to tackle the economic question.
The colonised of Australia, America and Canada are the first to understand this. They know all they can do is be absorbed in these 'new' lands and try to extract the best life for them. 'Turtle Island' is only ever used by Liberal Arts students who are allergic to workers. The Native American worker never bothers with such LARPing labels. He understands he is a citizen of the United States of America, and that the crackker runs the show. He understands this and raises his family with dignity.
>>2602919Presupposing some kind of premise of 'equality' with a group responsible for the immiseration of its subordinates, and the consequentially severe inequality therefrom, is an injustice to the historically subjugated.
Proper comeuppance consists in bloodshed only. Eye for an eye.
>>2602919ok well idk what it's like in Turtle Island but down here they're very adamant that "Australia" is an illegitimate state that has no right to exist
like on January 26 they talk about "Abolishing" Australia
the only reason why they use the word "Australia" at all is because no one can agree on an indigenous-language name
>>2602734Bro if all you advocate is vague sentimental "reconciliation" and "recognition", a treaty, like what does any of this do? Nothing will change as long as the baseline of capitalist exploitation exists. A change of words in the constitution literally does nothing, you are no different to those who want more minority representation in marvel movies. This is virtue signaling.
>>2602796Why the fuck is any communist interested in racial sovereignty, this has absolutely nothing to do with replacing the capitalist mode of production. You are brain poisoned with symbolic gestures, and have the mind to believe you are somehow revolutionary lol.
Literally what changes for some broke working class aboriginal if they get some notion of "sovereignty"? Sure sounds pretty on paper, but what does it mean?
Keep calling me racist for not agreeing with you, it's not 2020 anymore bro.
I advocate complete structural change of the economy, alternative social relations and mode of production to replace capitalism (Which would disproportionately benefit aboriginals and other disadvantaged groups). You want to change some words in the definition of Australia.
If you support some local aboriginal economy, because supposedly it rejects private property and "is basically Leninism", then say that. But stop pretending this has anything to do with an international communist movement. What you want is some Luddite bullshit.
>>2602955This sums up basically this whole argument. If you support identity politics, you just want to seek vengeance for one identity over others within the frame of capitalism. The levels of cuckoldry for white people to advocate bloodshed of their own race in order to appeal radical is astronomically high. Just like a man decked out in feminist gear trying to get in a woman's pants.
Reject white nationalism, reject aboriginal nationalism, advance the communist mode of production.
>>2602897>1. Restoration of Sovereignty for all Indigenous Nations, the integration of Indigenous traditional lore (law) within the functions of the state.*>2. Reparations for damages and injuries incurred to persons and land from the crimes of the colonial era and justice for the victims.>3. Uplifting of Indigenous Culture, Traditions, and Practices to the same level of social importance and acceptance as "Western" culture.You can't honestly believe this is within the realm of possibility?
Let's bring back some stone age traditional law lol. You understand all defeated groups first advocate a return to the past, the exact opposite of communism? Just like Muslims with Sharia law, when they face ruin, they rally behind conservative traditional structures.
I understand your sympathy with victims of capitalist imperialism and dispossession, but as a communist your goal is to advocate a future position, not to join their circlejerk for the past. None of these positions will ever happen in Australia (and thank god for that). No one deserves to have control of the land, not capitalists, not aboriginal ethnocentrists. The levels of cope to believe such an insignificant and powerless minority will be able to force these onto the rest of the Australian people, who have just as much a right to be on this land mass as them, makes me worried for you anon.
>>2599130https://www.pm.gov.au/media/special-envoys-plan-combat-antisemitismI knew you weren't serious when you kept ignoring the link between internet surveillance and these new laws, but here you go. I predicted exactly this
Reminder with comparable natural growth rates without colonisation there would be c.10 million aboriginal australians.
>be tradie
>fuck up back on site
>boss says “unlucky mate”
>job gone
>savings gone
>rent due
>hear communists are about helping workers
>sounds promising
>look up Australian communist party
>read platform
>expect unions, injury support, material help
>“Return all land to Indigenous custodians”
>“Abolish the Australian state”
>“Decolonise epistemology”
>still can’t pay rent
>back still fucked
>>2602977Who's they? The aboriginals are adamant that Australia must stop existing?
>>2602981>The levels of cuckoldry for white people to advocate bloodshed of their own raceRace? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today
>>2602994except we can do both easily by curtailing tax evasion and charging mining royalties. neolib austerity narratives are just cover for theft, there is more than enough demand to cover better wages and sovereign wealth.
>>2602997How does giving all land back to aboriginals (even if this were somehow possible) not completely fuck up any other material support possible. I'm pretty sure the worker doesn't want to get evicted from Australia? Or do you suppose he just receives a new aboriginal landlord lol.
>>2602991What the fuck does recognition in a post capitalist world even mean? You want me to tag you in an Instagram post?
>>2602897>All the lands they want, which is all of them. Every blade of grass, every rock, every grain of sand. sounds like if this goes ahead, in the event of a communist revolution the australian working class bogans will be rising up to kill the aboriginal land lords that control a horrendously disproportionate amount of land with the aim of having it redistributed to the masses
uhhhh whats the end goal here fellas, is it accelerationism or what.
>>2602919>turtle islandhere we go boys, another pronouncement from a dumb fuck seppo that's never been here, has no knowledge of the culture, the history, the politics, just wants to give us his homespun spiritually israeli wisdom like we don't hear fuckwit yanks saying racist shit every fucking day.
thank you so much for you anecdotes, many people would doubt themselves and think their myopic worldview might not hold up on the other side of the planet, but americans understand that everywhere with white cunts is just like california and everywhere with blacks is just like chicago.
god bless y'all.
>>2602997>easilyDo it then
>>2602999>aboriginal landlordthat's not how blackfella culture or law works.
>>2603004Just normal conclusions once you allowed yank idpol to infect 'communism'
>>2603008>blackfella culture or lawYou dont know shit
you can cope and bitch and whine as much as you want, but you will never succeed in snuffing out the desire of this continent's first people's desire for sovereignty. Your dismissal of it only speaks to your own privilege: of course it isn't important; you have never lost your home or made alien in your own land. Of course it is better to avoid the racism that infests this country rather than challenge it; you have never been left to suffocate in a hole at an NT police station. You arrogantly think that it can all just be hand-waived away by the magic of Communism, and whatever contradictions at play will either disappear or not be important, and it's all just shitlib hand-wringing over moralistic issues that aren't important. The arrogance, because you have never bothered to learn - worse, you aren't interested in learning; nor "abolishing the present state of things" or engaging in "ruthless critique of all that exists" - none of that matters: it's the economy above all. The means of production, that's what matters. Nothing else! Nothing at all. Surely, if we show these good-for-nothing degenerate *** scum downtrodden victims of capital the light of socialist revolution, they will abandon their primitive superstitions and backward "culture" misguided holding-on to something as trivial as land. Surely, right?
It has been two-hundred and fifty years since the first fleet. Not once, not when staring down the barrel of the British Empire, not when they were being hunted like dogs and lynched en masse, not when their babies were being ripped from their arms, stripped of their names, families, identities, their entire lives; not when snake-tongued degenerates lied about promises of opportunity and integration, nor when slack-jawed bogan gronks told them to "get over it" or "go back to where they came from" - not once, not a single time, have they ever rescinded their fighting mission: give us the land back. And, what is more, not once have they ever rescinded their willingness to bleed and die for the land of a thousand ancestors. Are you?
It has never been complicated. It has never been "and only we will rule here". Per their own lore, any person born on this land has as much right as anyone else. It has never been a desire to expel the invaders, but to welcome them to the great southern land. It has always only ever been a desire for recognition, for respect, self-determination and the rights of man we aim to afford to everyone. It is a happy coincidence that Communism happens to be essentially a scientific, modern version of how they lived pre-invasion. It speaks to the scientific nature of Marxism-Leninism that those fighting for their birthright have naturally discovered its principles in the process of their own struggle.
Your answer to their demand is a flat "No". What, exactly, do you think they will do in response to that? And how will you respond to them afterwards? A socialist revolution that doesn't take them into extraordinary account would be quite dangerous, the most difficulty I've had is convincing them that victory is possible - a revolution would do just that. And when that revolution rejects them - do you seriously think the people who have stood firm and not budged an inch amidst genocide, dispossession, theft, condescension, arrogance, slavery and insult in the face of the most powerful empires in the world at the peak of their power - do you really think they're going to give up for you?
Whatever vision of indigenous social justice you have in mind, if you have one, they will not accept. Nothing but sovereignty. Nothing but restoration. Nothing less. If those things aren't won, then they will still march and protest, even in the "People's Republic of Australia", and of course, you can bet your sweet bippy porky will take advantage of that. And when, in the name of "preventing disunity among the proletariat", you give order for the people's police to open fire on the chants of "Sovereignty was never ceded", I wonder, will you still call yourself a revolutionary?
>>2603006>>2603010you're tilted m8. have a breather.
https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/indigenous-women-push-back-against-plan-to-ban-females-from-nsw-national-park-site/news-story/b29574dc9dc54d05a6057521a646d6e4
<A plan to ban women from access to part of a NSW national park has caused uproar among local Indigenous women, who have branded the move “discriminatory”.
<Wollumbin National Park, also known as Mount Warning, is located in the Tweed Shire in far north NSW, with the landmark attracting about 127,000 people annually.
<Wollumbin Mountain was declared an Aboriginal Place above 600m to the summit by the NSW government in 2014 to protect its cultural values and formally recognise it as a place of special significance to Aboriginal people.
<The Wollumbin National Park summit trek has been closed since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, and will be shut off from the public permanently following an announcement from Minister for Environment James Griffin last month.
<He said the future of the national park was being guided by the Wollumbin Consultative Group, which “represents a range of Aboriginal groups and families with a connection to the site”.<Under the new Wollumbin Aboriginal Place Management Plan, the whole of the mountain is considered a “men’s site”.
<“Therefore gender restrictions apply to working on or visiting the Wollumbin Mountain,” the plan states.wow this sounds great
>>2603016i fucking hate chris minns
>>2603015you are disconnected from reality
australia is here to stay unfortunately
>>2603016<The plan also states that the “sanctity” of Wollumbin AP “may also manifest physically”, such as making people sick or putting women in “physical danger”.<“For example if women access areas that are restricted to men, women are in physical danger and likewise for men,” the plan states.i didn't aboriginal society was this based, give the land back i'm about to have an orgasm
Why are Australians so universally weird about their indigenous people?
>>2603022incredible amounts of racism
>>2603016>>2603020bro some pin dick incel got so buttmad about a women's only gallery in mona he had an expensive extended crashout in the courts, shit happens. it's not like anywhere else has figured this shit out, look at al aqsa mosque and the hagia sophia.
blackfella law mandates that every party is consulted until there's a consensus. it's in the air till then, and not that weird considering mosques and synagogues are separated by gender. it's a sacred site, it doesn't have to make sense.
I'm honestly amazed that my line of thinking is just
>Ok so how do you resolve the fact that Australia is a settler-colonial state that exists on top of stolen indigenous land, but the settlers are the majority population
>indigenous people have these demands and aren't willing to give up on them - how do you go about making them feasible?
And the other guy's thinking is
>No
>>2603022Contradictory narratives
Depending on who you ask the land was either stolen from the aboriginals and the bongs steam rolled them with no effort, and so Australians need to give back the land since its stolen
or
the bongs and Aboriginals were engaged in a long guerrila war and the aboriginals resisted bravely but ended up losing and the land was fairly conquered
its made people go a bit nutty
>>2603004read the rest of the post dipshit
>>2603028>>2602997How does giving all land back to aboriginals (even if this were somehow possible) not completely fuck up any other material support possible. I'm pretty sure the worker doesn't want to get evicted from Australia? Or do you suppose he just receives a new aboriginal landlord lol.
>>2602991What the fuck does recognition in a post capitalist world even mean? You want me to tag you in an Instagram post?
>>2603030regardless of how much resistance there was the colonists declared the blackfellas "fauna" so they could ignore their own laws and committed every war crime and crime against humanity that didn't exist until hitler did them to white people. they live in squalor in one of the richest nations on earth and it's a national embarassment that nothing has been done to correct this injustice.
>>2603037Is there a serious reparations movement in Australia?
>>2603033>Yes, in a way sovereignty would just be symbolic, but in another way, it isn't. The elders and activists I've talked to have made it abundantly clear that exclusionist ideas of blackfellas and only blackfellas having control over "their" land - let alone excluding other (white) Australians - doesn't even cross their minds. idealistic and won't get applied in reality
>>2603037>colonists declared the blackfellas "fauna"didn't happen
>>2603028We don't resolve the fact it is a settler colonial state by some retarded paperwork shifting of names to declare it aboriginal sovereignty. We don't introduce stoneage traditional law in a modern nation.
We replace the capitalist, exploitive economic mode of production.
We don't need to include retarded Luddite conservative mentality for the sake of a tiny minority. All their grievances will be solved by the communist mode of production.
Call it racism or whatever I guess.
>>2603036because it's not about evicting white people. it's about sharing the land and saving the culture. indigenous culture isn't based on enclosure and primitive accumulation.
>>2603040reparations are dumb, you can't just pay them off and settle a genocide like a balance sheet. it's about treaty, truth and reconcilliation, and cooperation.
>>2603043>we don't install traditonal stone age culture in a modern nationtell israel that, we're celebrating a living culture.
>>2603044What does a primitive stoneage economy have to do with communism?
You want us to give up agriculture and become nomadic tribal hunter gatherers?
Your movement is about feels and punishing yourself for being white. Grow a pair of nuts mate, nothing wrong with being white or aboriginal.
>>2603045Meaningless symbolic gestures. Maybe we should say sorry before every meal, then we can move on to advancing a communist mode of production?
Communism is about saying your land acknowledgements before going to bed.
>>2603045Elaborate what 'truth and reconciliation' mean and what form it takes in this context. Be more explicit on how this coorperation will take place.
For people who mock yanks, you emulate yanks very well, albeit with a 10 year delay.
>>2603036once again. That is not even remotely how aboriginal culture or law works. I explained later in the same post. You know you're being intentionally obtuse because you don't actually have an argument other than what I'm saying scares you.
>>2603040yes
>>2603045I'm aware, but when I talked to elders about it they made a point of "yeah but what about actual financial reparations?" and that was how I learned that the Aboriginal Land Management Corporation are a bunch of white saviourist cunts
>>2603047ngl, I thought kaiserredux was reaching a bit when they invented racist communism, and yet, I see it before my very eyes. incredible.
Anon - I know for a fact a person with your amount of flagrant disdain for aboriginal struggle does not do any organising whatsoever, there is not a single organisation in this country that wouldn't throw you out the second you opened your mouth. Hell, even those ACP-tailists in the "Eureka Initiative" have more respect. For your own sake, I beg of you, so you get off the goddamn PC and do something with your life, and actually build the Communism you preach instead of just shitposting online - read "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon. Then, do some googling and look up what life was like for Aboriginal people before colonisation. Stone-age culture, you say? Well, if you're so confident, go ask them yourself, go look for it on your own. They'll be more than happy to answer your questions: at worst, you'll be wrong, at which case you have no shame to heal but to change your mind, and at best, you'll be proven right.
At any rate - at least I have an answer to the national question. You sure as fuck don't.
>>2603046Celebrate it. Have a party. Dance around a fire. Stop centering it in the communist movement. We want to abolish capitalism not circlejerk every disadvantaged group that capitalism has fucked over.
This is no different than the trans crap, why does it have to be front and center. All this stuff is downstream, it is superstructure.
I'm sure you will agree that this stuff, aboriginal, trans or whatever other identity politics, is extremely divisive and often captured by corporate PMC propaganda? So why center it when we are trying to create a broad coalition?
>>2603047aboriginals had a communist mode of production:
>edible plants were propagated habitually and free to be harvested by anyone>baskets, furs, and woven items were made comnunally for use not consumption>valuable resources like fisheries were shared by different nations by treaty>surplus was shared with people that could no longer work>governance was handled by three councils, tribal, mens buisness, and womens business>inter-tribal conflicts were handled by calling a council and negotiating>matters of law had to be determined by councils consisting of wise men (historian scholars) and elders to keep the laws fair and consistent >>2603056because it's a primary concern in australia and we've had no action after 30 years of consensus so the victorian socialists are running with it.
>>2603055Communism isn't a nationalist movement you absolute tard lol.
We don't need a new nationalism to move forward, fuck me we already live in a completely interconnected international world.
Yes I would be thrown out of every org and I'm happy about it, it is better to shitpost online than participate in futile activity for the sake of action in itself. We are still coming down from the intensification of identity politics in the left after the failure of class politics in the West. But I'll say that the situation is ripening in my opinion.
>>2603058Yes I am aware traditional economies were more communistic. That doesn't mean it has any relation to how a future system will be organized. We are not returning to the stoneage.
>>2603061Victorian socialists are a meme, sometimes you have to acknowledge failures, cut your loses, and start something new.
>>2603068Read Giuseppe Mazzini.
>>2603068communism was a nationalist movement in vietnam: ho chi minh pulled 65 nations into the viet minh to form a country that could resist colonial rule.
communism is a nationalist movement in china to interface with the UN and to trade in international markets.
communism will be a nationalist/patriotic movement in a lot of places until such time as we can rebuild the commintern. we need to stand together in whatever structure we can. we don't need to do nationalism in a racist, xenophobic, chauvanistic, or imperialist way we just need to maintain an identity and culture.
>>2602999>I'm pretty sure the worker doesn't want to get evicted from Australia? Don't worry m8, by sovereignty they don't mean actual sovereignty, and by returning everything they don't mean actually returning anything. You just get to be a second class citizen in your own country as aboriginals are elevated to a privileged position inside of it based on their race and the fact they think old rocks are sacred. It's no big deal you racist.
>>2603027It's a rock in the ground. Al aqsa and the hagia sophia are just buildings. There's no justification for it. Its ridiculous how this backwards nonsense gets accepted just because someone says it's "sacred" or "traditional" or "cultural."
>>2603044Their culture can't be "saved" because it's already been irrevocably altered by the arrival of Europeans and now the fact of tens of millions of other Australians living with them.
How this crap gets a second of consideration I don't understand. It is quite clearly reactionary. Fucking Fanon getting shilled unironically, are we on Tumblr or leftypol?
>>2603528I don't get it. How is it reactionary to give a racial minority unilateral authority over millions of indigenous people based on the fact that their ancestors were on a piece of land first?
>>2602897>Well, that's the exciting part. We have to figure that out ourselves. It sounds like you don't really know or have any concrete idea how this is supposed to work in practice.
>All the lands they want, which is all of them. Every blade of grass, every rock, every grain of sand. Okay, now I know you're not serious, especially when you say
>You have to remember indigenous Australians do not consider "sovereignty" to be in the same sense as the western one, just as their interpretation of "land ownership" is not at all analogous to the common understanding we have of private property or exclusive control/ownership. Those words are simply the closest english-language approximations we have.
>I have to stress this again, indigenous sovereignty does not mean exclusive control over this or that carving out of the land. It will never mean "oh yes, this section of 300km2 is especially controlled by the [insert name] nation". We already have those. They're called reservations.
>Yes, in a way sovereignty would just be symbolic, but in another way, it isn't. The elders and activists I've talked to have made it abundantly clear that exclusionist ideas of blackfellas and only blackfellas having control over "their" land - let alone excluding other (white) Australians - doesn't even cross their minds. Is it about special treatment of specific people? In some circumstances, of course, just as the colonial state today gives "special treatment" to those same specific people. But for the overwhelming majority part, it's about recognising Australia's historic roots and taking that history and its present existence into account of daily political and economic affairs.I encounter this problem every time landback comes up. I ask what does it mean and I get this nonsense non-answer. "What lands? All of them. Total indigenous sovereignty. But no, not really. It doesn't mean exclusive control, except sometimes when it does. It's not ethnocentric, it's just elevating the social control of some people along ethnic lines."
>for example, an Australia with indigenous sovereignty would not have allowed the gas project in the northwest to go through as it would damage and possibly destroy a nearby sacred site. Alright, so here's what matters. What does your retarded not-sovereign sovereignty mean here in the concrete? The socialist state of Australia wants to build a pipeline project that will benefit the entire country. The problem is that a bunch of rocks "sacred" to 300 people stands in the way. Now what? Does their concept of non exclusive non private property suddenly change and they get to unilaterally scuttle the whole thing because they say so? If not then what's even the point in giving them "sovereignty" since it's only "symbolic."
>anon here talked about it quite well. It seems like you're both attributing some kind of special ability to aboriginal people to be "caretakers of the environment" when the only difference between them is that their circumstances required ordering the environment in different ways to suit different needs. So what use is any of this "traditional knowledge" in the face of the fact that climate change is going to make both ways of living increasingly impossible and require the development of entirely new knowledge about ways of ordering and living on the land?
>The elders I've talked to have made it clear they have no issue with the exploitation of Australia's natural resources, only who profits from it and ensuring it is done in a way that is sustainable and environmentally harmless; this is logical since obviously they exploited this continent for many hundreds of centuries before any white man did. So then they do have a problem with the exploitation of Australia's resources. Yeah, they should stand to benefit from their use too, but how is ore or carbon extraction ever going to be sustainable or "harmless" and what are they planning to do about it if the other 30 million people decide that the exploitation of those resources is more important to society than the feelings of people that think painting with all the colors of the wind is more important than building modern infrastructure?
>If indigenous knowledge was more widely accepted and used, then it would be inconvenient for porkyYou keep bringing up "indigenous knowledge" without ever actually saying what it is, why it's important, or why anyone else would or should care.
>Additionally, the dissemination of indigenous knowledge would naturally lead more and more people being inclined toward the elephant in the room of land rights… which, of course, is a critically dangerous threat to the foundation of the Australian state as it exists at present: terra nullius. I find that extremely hard to believe that a vague difference in the conception of property rights poses an existential threat to the Australian state. You keep just asserting this like the simple existence of "indigenous knowledge" is going up overcome the ingrained concept of property rights currently existing among native Australians or the social functions of those rights. I don't expect you to have a perfect explanation for how this is supposed to work, but so far you haven't posited anything more substantial than "if we put aboriginals in charge we'll achieve socialism."
>In the many days I spent talking to indigenous activists and leaders in my city they made it very clear - nothing but the total restoration of every single inch of land will suffice. So again, what exactly is this supposed to mean? Because what you've said so far is that nothing will actually be restored to them, because sovereignty doesn't mean sovereignty.
>1. Restoration of Sovereignty for all Indigenous Nations, the integration of Indigenous traditional lore (law) within the functions of the state.*>*obviously on a confederal, case-by-case basis in respect to the differing lore and values of different nations, and with respect to, not replacing, the already-established common law widely used in Australia today.You just keep doing it. "We want total sovereignty, but not really."
>2. Reparations for damages and injuries incurred to persons and land from the crimes of the colonial era and justice for the victims.Okay I guess, at least this is somewhat concrete.
>3. Uplifting of Indigenous Culture, Traditions, and Practices to the same level of social importance and acceptance as "Western" culture.I'm tempted to ask what this is supposed to mean in the concrete but I suspect I'll just get more idealist non answers.
>tbh im gonna need to write a more formal treatise I await with bated breath.
>>2603735Excellent post anon, but I'm pretty sure they have all fucked off back to reddit
Commissar was so smug about it all, I awaited his deep, novel, stimulating thoughts with impatience and all we got is recycled 2016 era Yankee idpol libby garbage.
'Indegenous activists' = grifters forged by the American culture industry to instill IDPol poison in any and every potential mass movement.
>>2603461nobody's getting evicted or becoming second class citizen because it's a treaty dickhead. both parties are signatories. how is maintaining the second class status of blackfellas egalitarian ya fuckwit?
>>2603573here we go. no creative enough to keep up the socialist racist charade so the mask just dropped.
>>2603780that's also a good point. this is a quirk of australian socialism that's getting blown way out of proportion by trolls that want to forum slide topics like labor friends of israel, the connection between chabad and the zionist lobby, and schlangers trips to israel. to gob off the idf.
>>2603782>nobody's getting evicted or becoming second class citizen because it's a treaty dickhead. both parties are signatories. how is maintaining the second class status of blackfellas egalitarian ya fuckwit?M8 I just plain don't believe you that nobodies going to be evicted or that the equal status of both parties are going to be respected because every single time some landbacker says in the very next breath there's a "but" or "except when".
>>2603791under the current regime blackfellas are getting evicted. look into burrup hub. 65 million year old rock art of global archeological significance is getting bulldozed to build a gas pipeline for export: australia wont use or profit from this project and like every other resource contract we're probably footing the bill to clean it up at EOL.
under the current regime blackfellas are still getting genocided: look into vehicular manslaughter in the NT. there's a truly sickening case with conspiracy to pervert the course of justice where sentencing isn't even commensurate with the search and rescue costs let alone the crime of killing someone and then transporting and disposing of their dismembered corpse to cover it up.
why do you think palestine protests are popular here? we have first hand experience of the depraved shit that happens under colonialism. we hate it.
commie-curious normie tourist here, my facebook feed has been a divisive shitfest since the Bondi attack happened.
>won't somebody think of the poor law abiding firearm owners
>cooker conspiracy it was ASIO/mossad/CIA theories
>don't condemn islam because of the actions of a violent minority
>I bet Chris Minns will use this as an excuse to defect my lifted 4WD
>don't question immigration policies ever or you are a racist bigot
>As a secular white woman, how can I make this event about *me*
>>2603847>normie tourist>hereI have some unfortunate news for you, friend…
>my facebook feedgood thing I don't use facebook/etc.No surprised. There's everything from bad-faith campaigns inventing fake people like Edward Crabapple, Zionists exploiting this to blame Palestine supporters, conspiracy theorists so disillusioned that they automatically jump to Mossad-did-it, and more.
Not only are there shit people doing that with purpose, it's compounded by other people who instinctively just jump to the defense and make similarly ridiculous argument.
It's a jungle out there.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - online communities are almost always worse than irl ones. I know irl isn't always an option, but online amplifies the most alienated people and allows bots from around the world to exploit platformed run by the owning class who purchased them.
^ Sorry for all the typos, was distracted by work.
* Edward Crabtree:
>>2596939>>2603813I don't deny that is happening or that it needs to change. I care about this because I agree, it's fucked up, wrong, and there's no justification for allowing it to continue. What I am contending with is this wishy-washy "landback" ideology that talks out of both sides of its mouth. I mean it's right here in this very thread.
>we want to give all the land back<but we don't mean actually giving it to anyone>we want indigenous sovereignty <but by sovereignty we don't mean sovereignty >indigenous people govern by consensus <but with implied veto powers if the consensus goes against themAnd that's why I'm trying to get concrete answers here, because the fact is you can't have both the conditions necessary for things as they currently are in Australia while also having the sort of conditions Commissar vaguely describes in his hypothetical new Australia. To go back to utilizing the techniques and knowledge of aboriginal Australia you'd have to restore those pre-colonial conditions, which by necessity is going to mean the removal of post colonial modifications and populations to a greater or lesser degree, and if the point of landback isn't achieving the power to enforce the restoration of those conditions necessary to preserving that traditional way of life then what exactly is the point?
>>2603847>commie-curiousObviously I don't know what you already know and don't know, but my advice:
- Be aware there are different schools of thought (anarcho-communism, Trotskyist branches, Marxist-Leninists), and even different orgs with the same ideological basis act differently, so don't let one organisation or person put you off. Talk to people in different groups, and don't just believe someone if they're slandering a rival org.
- Online is garbage (but sometimes people throw out perfectly useful things). Go to protests with the intent of finding all the different socialist groups and talking with them.
- Red Flag is a publication of Socialist Alternative (SAlt)
- Green Left is a publication of Socialist Alliance (their website has a good, although not necessarily complete, list of upcoming events by region, useful if you aren't following groups on social media)
- University campuses can be dramashit from what I've heard. If you're on campus,
don't get burned out and give up entirely. Orgs often operate on campus utilising fronts (e.g. Students for Palestine is founded by SAlt, Students Against War is founded by Solidarity).
- There are plenty of accessible materials for learning. People will meme about 'read Capital vol 1-3' or even 'read the communist manifesto' but I recommend How Marxism Works as an intro text, PDF attached. It's written in 1979 by a British SWP member (Cliffite Trotskyists, same lineage as Solidarity and Socialist Alternative here in Aus) but most of it holds up.
- The names are horrible
-
The names are horrible- Don't mix up Socialist Alliance and Socialist Alternative
- Don't mix up the Revolutionary Communist Organisation and the Revolutionary Communist International
- Don't mix up Red Ant with Red Spark
- Don't mix up the Communist Party of Australia (1920-1991), the Communist Party of Australia (1971-present), the Communist Party of Australia (Marxist-Leninist), or the Australian Communist Party.
- WSWS is run by the SEP. I've generally made this post anti-sectarian, but the SEP are fucking clowns who have picketed union actions and post online every day calling every other group "pseudo-left".
>>2603918oh whoops, forgot to attach the PDF
Speaking of which,
>>2602906>Of course, the trots will never accept itoi commissar, read the chapter "Imperialism and national liberation" and report back with your thoughts.
>>2603782I am allowed an occasional racist joke because of our culture victory over your retarded idpol. Don't get baited so easily my naive friend
>>2603918Don't waste your time with protests and "communist groups". They are all a bunch of retarded University students cosplaying American liberals.
>>2603934Yeah, well when you get accused of racism for the horror of wanting to organize across racial lines and not center a given identity, it's a little fun to rub it in after embarrassing them in the thread.
>>2603892>I'm trying to get concrete answers hereI've been trying to explain this for a long time but it's not getting through:
> we're forming a treaty, this needs to be negotiated> it's a peace treaty, in the interests of truth and reconcilliation> to negotiate it indigenous communities need to form authoritative governing bodies> this is difficult, and can't be imposed top down because to be authoritative these bodies need to speak for blackfellas> blackfella culture and law is very close to anarcho-syndicalism> they need to have consensus for collective action, but have very diverse opinions> it doesn't have concepts of ownership like european culture does> it doesn't have concepts of borders like european culture does> multiple nations share the same land and have different sacred sites> whitefellas have a ton of money, universities, scientific institutions, hospitals, and control of the cops so we have a lot to offer in negotiations> despite the genocide and apartheid not every interaction between whites and blacks has been negative> we have common interests that are best met through solidarity eg: mining royalties can be collected and shared between indigenous trusts and sovereign wealth fundsyou don't actually need to be scared of uncertainty or spread misinformation about whites being victimised.
>>2603985No one is scared, it is cringe and antithetical to communism. While also being exceptionally divisive and unsuccessful in attracting a broad coalition.
How many times do you need to hear it for it to sink in. We don't need to circlejerk every disadvantaged group that has been fucked over by capitalism.
>>2604014and the response from indigenous people is "fuck you, give us the land back".
Even from a purely utilitarian perspective, how on earth can you be retarded enough to think that they're going to give up just because a different set of white people say its different this time we promise? especially ones with as much blatant contempt as you?
they didn't give up in the face of genocide or empire. they'll fight you, too.
Imagine trying to organize workers and there is some retard there who keeps talking about "blackfella law"
>>2604039>how on earth can you be retarded enough to think that they're going to give upgive up?
if they complain about a land redistribution they'd probably get forcibly locked up in a gulag.
Give up? LMAO
>"fuck you, give us the land back".looks like they're getting """""their""""" land back at a rate of 100000 square kilometers per year anyway
https://www.pc.gov.au/closing-the-gap-data/dashboard/outcome-area/land-and-waters/ >>2603735>It sounds like you don't really know or have any concrete idea how this is supposed to work in practice.well, pardon me, no-one's ever tried to answer this question before, forgive me for being the first
>"What lands? All of them. Total indigenous sovereignty. But no, not really. It doesn't mean exclusive control, except sometimes when it does. It's not ethnocentric, it's just elevating the social control of some people along ethnic lines."fucksake this bullshit again
Indigenous "ownership" for idiots:
>be blackfella>80,000 BC>live in the driest continent on earth>centralised cultivation of the same plot of land over and over again isn't viable bc the soil sucks and there isn't enough water>wat do>plant grass>wait for animals to come and eat it>kill said animals for food, but not enough for them to be depopulated>stable food supply acquired>turns out you can also use the grass to make flour and thus bread>discover other edible plants like native sweet potato and root plants>keep replanting crops for the animals to come eat>invent farming based on land management and manipulating the environment to naturally grow desired foods in predictable patterns and areas>manipulate those patterns to make emus/kangaroos/possums etc naturally breed and hang around in specific areas>also invent aquaculture>you have now invented farming without inventing property ownership>cultural ideas of "caring for the land" rather than "owning it" arise from this economic base>"the land owns us, we came from the land and return to it eventually, so we just take care of it while we're here">develop a sense of communal "management" or "caring" of the land rather than exclusive "ownership">as a result of this, no concepts of private ownership (or patriarchy)before you cry libshit, the "patriarchy was invented by private property" comes from Engels
>indigenous people invent primitive communism and never really stray from it bc why would youIndigenous concepts of "we own it but also don't" is a cultural idea that has its material base in how agriculture was invented here. It wasn't until europeans arrived that they had to invent the idea of physically owning something. The idea of ownership being exclusive is not something that exists in indigenous cultures, and so naturally trying to force european thinking onto something that is not european doesn't work very well. I keep saying, and you keep not listening: blackfellas owning land doesn't mean white people don't. Saying "all land must be decolonised" and "well, they don't actually own it" isn't contradictory - would we only partially decolonise Australia? Of course not. Is "owning" land in the european sense actually the goals of indigenous sovereignty? no, not at all, because, as I said, those words - "sovereignty" and "ownership" don't actually reflect the reality of what they mean in this context, they're just the closest english approximations we have to explain the idea.
And no, for the last fucking time, it is not elevating a specific ethnicity to an advantage over others - they are at a disadvantage already. It is equality. And again, it is not exclusive, in an Australia with indigenous sovereignty white australians would be included as part of that ownership/caretaking/management/sovereignty/whatever
>The socialist state of Australia wants to build a pipeline project that will benefit the entire country. The problem is that a bunch of rocks "sacred" to 300 people stands in the way. Now what? Does their concept of non exclusive non private property suddenly change and they get to unilaterally scuttle the whole thing because they say so?hypotheticals don't exist, this is a retarded point based on not understanding the concept of indigenous ownership
>It seems like you're both attributing some kind of special ability to aboriginal people to be "caretakers of the environment" when the only difference between them is that their circumstances required ordering the environment in different ways to suit different needs. So what use is any of this "traditional knowledge" in the face of the fact that climate change is going to make both ways of living increasingly impossible and require the development of entirely new knowledge about ways of ordering and living on the land? it's not "special ability", it's literally just the people who've been here for thousands of years knowing more about the land than people who've only been here for 200 years.
>So then they do have a problem with the exploitation of Australia's resources.hair-splitting
>and what are they planning to do about it if the other 30 million people decide that the exploitation of those resources is more important to society than the feelings of people that think painting with all the colors of the wind is more important than building modern infrastructure? you fundamentally don't think of them as people do you
would you want an oil pipeline that fracks uluru? even if the majority of the population voted for it?
>I find that extremely hard to believe that a vague difference in the conception of property rights poses an existential threat to the Australian state.it's "vague" because you refuse to understand it
skill issue
>I don't expect you to have a perfect explanation for how this is supposed to work, but so far you haven't posited anything more substantial than "if we put aboriginals in charge we'll achieve socialism."t.strawman
this entire arugment has just been me arguing one specific point of Australian communism - the national question. It's an important question, sure, but it's not like resolving it is going to solve everything, or naturally lead to a socialist revolution. Australia is a Colonial state. Colonialism is not a natural occurrence, it arises from Capitalism. In the same way you cannot defeat Capitalism without addressing imperialism, you cannot defeat Capitalism without addressing Colonialism. The foundation of Australia is colonialism, a specific version called terra nullius, and thus it does stand to reason that the dissemination of indigenous ideas and practices would be detrimental to the colonial state, since it would undermine the founding myth of the Commonwealth of Australia itself - which is terra nullius. It lends credence to the indigenous claim that "Australia" is an illegitimate state, which of course is very useful to us Communists.
<In the many days I spent talking to indigenous activists and leaders in my city they made it very clear - nothing but the total restoration of every single inch of land will suffice.
>So again, what exactly is this supposed to mean? Because what you've said so far is that nothing will actually be restored to them, because sovereignty doesn't mean sovereignty. I specified it here
<*obviously on a confederal, case-by-case basis in respect to the differing lore and values of different nations, and with respect to, not replacing, the already-established common law widely used in Australia today.Anon
>>2603985 gives a good explanation as to why it takes so long to actually figure out what it would tangibly look like in specifics
Again: this is something that would need to be negotiated with indigenous communities on a case-by-case basis, the fine print hashed out in a new constitution. There is no easy or quick way to say definitively "this is how it will be", because I can't speak definitively on behalf of 250 nations. That's why I extensively quoted the Bolivian constitution, since that gives a very helpful insight into the specifics of what plurinationalist indigenous sovereignty would look like.
>I'm tempted to ask what this is supposed to mean in the concrete but I suspect I'll just get more idealist non answers. When I asked about it, they told me in reference to how Christianity is upheld in modern societies. We make a big show about Christmas (a christian holiday) and easter (also a christian holiday) and other days like Saint Patrick's Day, Saint Valentine's Day, All Saint's Day, etc etc. In their terms, they want indigenous culture to be as accepted and as socially participatory as abrahamic religion. Not to suck my own dick, but I think I put it best when I described it as "Corroborrees and Cricket matches".
>>2604069<And when, in the name of "preventing disunity among the proletariat", you give order for the people's police to open fire on the chants of "Sovereignty was never ceded", I wonder, will you still call yourself a revolutionary? >>2604039You try so hard to be an ally, yet you just make aboriginals sound like a bunch of tards who will throw a tantrum until we give into their reactionary demands.
If we abolish private property and replace the capitalist mode of production, what exactly do they want? There will be no ownership of land, it will be just another resource harnessed by collective ownership.
And your threats about them fighting me is just cringe. You sound like some measly white guy just in awe at the super powerful black man, wtf lol. Im sorry but none is worried about their collective organization skills, especially once the rest of society has taken the land finally into their own hands, they won't be giving up.
>>2604084<And when, in the name of "preventing disunity among the proletariat", you give order for the people's police to open fire on the chants of "Sovereignty was never ceded", I wonder, will you still call yourself a revolutionary?yes, they're being given the equivalent of south korea every year, they aren't proletarians, they're porky adjacent
>>2604084Bro literally sits around jerking off to the thought of aboriginals.
More seriously, why do you think we need to like undo colonialism or even imperialism within capitalism? These are aspects of capitalism sure, but they will be resolved by an advanced mode of production. We don't have to undo every wrong before moving forward, it is impossible, unnecessary and most times contradictory to the abolishment of capitalism.
Wouldn't you think it is a bit silly if someone from Taiwan was hyper focused on sovereignty for the indigenous there? Like how does that contribute to what is an international movement (communism)? I'm sorry you have invested so much time into this crap, it is clear you have, but it really is pointless.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/12/18/vkib-d18.htmlwas this type of swindle in which your visa is tied to a specific employer pioneered by the gulf states? ignorant question i know but those are the places i first heard such practice existed
>>2604099>>2604092>indigenous people are literally porkyyou're good at this lmao
>>2604113>More seriously, why do you think we need to like undo colonialism or even imperialism within capitalism?I don't.
>>2602897, I specifically said sovereignty can't be restored under present Australia, I don't think it needed to be said out loud that yeah no shit it can't be done under a Capitalist economy - the half-assed tokenism you get now is what happens when you do that. In
>>2604084 I mentioned the national question is an important one to address, but nonetheless only one point of Australian Communism - other things like Imperialism, Australia's present political economy, etc etc, are all important things to take into consideration as well. But the national question is just as important as the others - as it has been chanted many times: "one struggle, one fight, climate justice/land/worker's rights".
I get that Communists have a natural tendency to dismiss idpol, on the grounds that whatever concerns this or that group has can be dealt with by a penstroke after the main fight against the bourgeois has been won. Queer rights, the environment - those are things all of us sincerely believe are important, but we don't put our effort into them because we know whatever issue about them can be easily solved once the worker's movement has won - we'll pass whatever laws they want in the first session of the people's congress, and be done with it. Same reasons as why Marx and Engels kicked feminists out of the first international. As yes, Communists have been true to their words on this hand-waiving, the bolsheviks more or less gave Russian feminists everything they wanted after the revolution.
But colonialism is not something that can be dealt with so dismissively, it comprises an entire historical and social period, and a specific mode of production relations that arise and sustain themselves from certain conditions - colonialism ingrains itself in the very fabric of economic and social relationships of any given society, none of which can be easily undone - and in Australia, we have the additional challenge of determining how the original colonial relations have consolidated into Australia's present political economy, and the fact that unlike past anti-colonial revolutions, we can't just expel the settlers - we are a state where the settler population vastly outnumbers the native. Naturally the Colonial question is something that requires a lot more thought than the usual "oh yeah, we'll deal with that after the revolution".
Pay the rent ya white dogs!
>>2603918Epic almost pinworthy post anon
>>2604249
weird you bring this up: I was curious wtf tapNgive actually raised funds for and I can only find an american charity. the aussie one's linkedin page has been completely scrubbed.
there's a multitude of "charities" around the world that raise tax deductible funds for the IDF, IDF veterans, settler militias, and all kinds of unsavoury shit in israel, but there doesn't seem to be any info online to implicate or exonerate tapNgive.
>>2604247My point is that is all the questions of sovereignty are literally redundant, they make no sense whatsoever in a post capitalist world. If there is no such thing as a nation state, no such thing as private property or commodity production, what exactly is there to do for them?
You go on about how colonialism is so important unlike other idpol it can't be ignored, but you say this without expressing a reason. Colonialism is just capitalism. It dispossessed the natives, yes, like proletarians aren't dispossessed peasants from fuedalism? There are differences in how they became slaves to capital but in essence it is not so unique it warrants its own focus and especially does not need to be the priority or central aspect of communist organization.
When talking to libs or aboriginals you could mention how communism will make many of their issues completely redundant. But on a national or international scale it is just plain dumb strategy to excessively harp on the plight of aboriginals, when you can harp on problems that affect EVERYONE. Don't call your group chats Naarm ffs, have some level of tactical thinking and strategy.
>>2604466>communism will make many of their issues completely redundantbut not all of them. communism hasn't ended dirty primary industries or solved the problems of underserved minorities.
if you have no solidarity with working people with specific issues what the fuck is the point of you. I'm still yet to meet one of you edgy brocialists at any IRL action.
>>2604483>solved the problems of underserved minorities.That is no communism at all in that case
>>2604483Ahhh brocialist, so you are part of the Hillary crowd?
You don't realize how many people you turn away with this crap. I will work in solidarity with anyone who wishes to solve issues related to communism.. I am not interested in wasting my time on both unpopular and antithetical to replacing the capitalist mode of production.
If there issue can be solved working with me on communism, why do I need to first do some retarded completely unrelated identity politics first. Leave that for libs who have no interest in a new economy but just want to alter the image of our current one.
>>2604483save your breath mate they admitted this morning none of these fuckass losers ever go outside
>>2603068All this arguing has told me is that the arguments against landback/plurinationalism/indigenous self-determination essentially boil down to:
>it'll divide the working class on racial grounds!they already are
>why bother with this indigenous stuff, it's useless to communismthe bolsheviks bothered with it, that's why they founded the union of soviet socialist republics and not the "people's republic of russia" and told the minorities to get fucked
>communism will automatically resolve all these contradictions, including colonialism!you don't resolve contradictions by pretending they aren't there
>why should a special racial group get special racial-based land ownership?that's not how it works
>[racism]mask off, ig
>>2604528The bolsheviks created secular socialist republics for minority nations. They would laugh in your face for suggesting to uphold "traditional lore", tribal forms of organization or muh sacred rocks. Siberian native councils that briefly existed were meant to be a transition to the universal form of the soviet, rather than an attempt to retvrn to some wholesome transhistorical primitive communism.
You would meet zero opposition if you simply suggested an Aboriginal SSR without any of the mumbo jumbo.
Colonialism is bellow class struggle. People who don't realise this end up giving all of their lives for the right for capitalists to be of other colors.
>>2604604this is still dumb. rectifying colonialism was the root cause of the revolutions in china, vietnam, cuba, and venezuela.
>>2604152>wswsSorry mate, not reading it. Find another source or explain it yourself.
>>2604084>>invent farming based on land management and manipulating the environment to naturally grow desired foods in predictable patterns and areas>>manipulate those patterns to make emus/kangaroos/possums etc naturally breed and hang around in specific areas>>also invent aquaculture>>you have now invented farming without inventing property ownership>>cultural ideas of "caring for the land" rather than "owning it" arise from this economic base>>"the land owns us, we came from the land and return to it eventually, so we just take care of it while we're here">>develop a sense of communal "management" or "caring" of the land rather than exclusive "ownership"wow, its the english commons.
<the commons will never get enclosed, we have had a culture of sharing and caring for these lands despite having no singular owner for thousands of years, changes in material conditions will lead to no change in culture.^English peasant mere moments before the commons were enclosed forever
>>2603058>aboriginals had a communist mode of production: >same shit everyone else used to do 4000 years agoi feel like you have to be genuinely ignorant of the rest of the world to not see that this is just the same stuff everyone else used to do as well
>>2605578>wow, its the english commons. What if the government just makes a bunch of common land everyone can use and makes the local aboriginal tribes the administrators of it
>we don’t own the land we just manage it<okay manage thisProblem solved
>>2605578The ‘communist’ future Comissar envisions is a world confederation of Bantustans. The Aussie cannot help being a race obsessed maniac, even when he is trying to do well. Shame.
Purple pingers absolutely making an embarrassment of the Australian left on deprogram podcast.
>Has the cringiest juvenile most unserious dudeDrugzLMAO handle.
>Spends an entire hour boring everyone to tears rambling about minutiae of the domestic housing situation on an international podcast.
>Neglects to discuss the broader situation of Australian capitalism and it's position in the global order
>Neglects to discuss Australia's role in the imperialist system of domination.
>Neglects to discuss any Indigenous issues or issues arising from the settler colony situation despite being given many opportunities.
>having a Palestinian small business owner speak at a Palestinine rally is class collaboration, they are the enemy
I was previously ambivalent to this guy but he has left such a bad impression for me. I do not understand his appeal as a spokesperson or prominent leader of the VicSocs project whatsoever. Completely uninspiring and just straight up bad politics. Fuck these trots man.
>>2606114>Yet everyone of their activities gets more pulicity than our anarchist/palestine/CARF groups.PAG has plenty of airtime, despite their rallies being banal and regular. And "Violent protesters"/"antifa" are well-known and make the news often.
>How do we maximise publicity1) Be repulsive to the public and give the news companies what they want. I am skeptical of this tactic because I believe it's important to remain appealing to commie-curious normalfags, but it works for publicity. I don't even think it's necessary to distort our politics (much) to do this. Be this guy in vid. /leftypol/ should have an advantage here
or did fucking hexbear become more dirtbag, these days? Violence also has done this, like throwing rocks at the police and bashing NSN.
2) Actually organise agitation. What do
you do in the public sphere? I flier at the office and openly flaunt my union work in conversation. I loudly spruik upcoming protests at train stations. My comrades wheatpaste and hold stalls. Both my local union and socialist groups are actually pretty small, but outreach is surprisingly successful where you get people instinctively walking past (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BiHzcGSZEM ) who take a second to hear what you said and then walk back to ask more.
Watching this day of reflection, I get the feeling we're being made an example of. Not even lukewarm lib recognition of the PA is allowed. Only complete submission to Israel.
Definitely seems like there's been an increased attempt since the attack to brigade certain Australia subreddits. Noticed r/sydneyscene in particular. However also a significant pushback against the zios. Despite all attempts I think the zio propaganda attacks are not convincing everyone
>>2607057He's a drugged up kid who is grumpy he can't be a landlord until his parents die.
>>2607057I like pingers. he makes landlords seethe and he managed to fuck with the media enough to get blacklisted. can't believe they're shitscared of yet another jordies.
>>2608163He's done good work for renters don't get me wrong. But terrible guest for an international ML podcast.
>>2608260nah good enough innings. hakim prompted him to get into the minutiae. I just figured he was geeking out because he hadn't obsessively researched Australian politics.
getting sick of aut left shutins attacking every form of action. pingers is right and we should be capitalising (lel) on the latitude we have to organise and the current shift in consciousness.
>>2608304Firstly, not a shutin. I'm engaged with a party and actively do real politics. Perhaps your jimmies are rustled because you're a salty.
I am glad and supportive that the _ Socialists party is growing and am in favour of building alliances on the left and working together as much as possible. But that doesn't preclude me from criticising Pingers. His politics fall short and are far too myopic and underdeveloped to deserve being platformed like this. Debate and criticism with the intention of honing the correct political lines is exactly what the left needs. You may as well support Jordies getting on deprogram if you're gonna be so uncritical.
>>2608355>deservethere is no "deserve". he came to prominence from participating, and out of dumb luck. to his credit he has spurned every offer to sell out.
his platform is pretty bang on: he's tapping into the resentiment against housing developers but instead of being a shill like jordies and punters he's formed an electoral party to act as a pressure group with leverage over seats. he doesn't even bullshit people that the state socialist parties are going to take power and the balance of power.
I can't think of anyone better to represent australia on the deprogram. he's young, he's in new media, and he's socialist (well, trot). everyone else is either producing old-media pamphlets inside a party, or is an anarchist with even narrower, shallower politics.
unless you have a suggestion?
>>2608466Ok look if you feel optimistic about it and he resonates with you then that's a good thing, I definitely hope the growing Socialists party succeeds in engaging more people and starting a movement. The more people involved in any organisation or political activities the better. Not gonna bang on about it anymore cause I've stated my view.
>>2607057pingers is approximately as embarrassing and cringeworthy as any other socialist you can name
>I do not understand his appeal as a spokesperson or prominent leader of the VicSocs project whatsoever. considering he tripled VicSocs senate vote, he must have some appeal
>>2607057I'm mostly laughing about how they used the platform to cry about how SAlliance are somehow a dead party with no members (despite an obvious real presence and both VicSoc and SAlliance holding the same amount of electoral seats).
SAlt entitlement - BAW!
The crypto-SAlt parts were shit, but apart from that I didn't think they were terrible. Perhaps a bit less housing talk, like you said, but they're a housing activist and housing is one of the biggest issues facing Australians.
>>2608814at this point I can't even complain about the tony cliff splitter trots because at least I met a few of them and they're not the zionist platypus splitter trots sponsored by yankeestan.
>>2608814yeah nah, that's a good point.
oi saltyjordies: do unity messaging and coendorse socialist alliance ya dog. if you don't squash the beef your career and legacy is going to be just as bad as every other egotist prick that left australian socialism completely ratfucked. keep the backbiting for the party meetings and show some professionalism to the public mate.
>>2609281>>2608814Yeah agreed that was another grievance I had which I forgot to mention. Just unprofessional to be airing that shit to the international public. Saltyjordies is a fucking hilarious name
>>2608260>>2609495I still feel the operative word for the deprogram is
>internationaland not
>MLthey've had guests from across the spectrum. if anyone is buttmad about saltyjordies then please either nominate someone more worthy or get your phone out and sound off so I can like and subscribe. otherwise it's:
> cam wilson: lib> andy fleming: anarkiddie> tom tanuki: anarkiddie> jordan shanks: neolib> swollen pickles: green> michael west: based green> john menadue: based elderly lib> bob carr: based elderly lib> punters politics: corporate socdem> auspol explained: boring lib> mr m history: knowledgable lib> sloan zone: lib> channel 6: lib> fergus neal: idiotI clicked thru some forum threads for recs and so many channels and podcasts are deleted. probably through harassment or bloodsports.
was looking for some trot with a handle like "relu" but couldn't find him. did find lewis spears cosplaying as avi yemini harassing a marxism conference while wearing a limited edition pseudo swastika medallion from the phantom. what a fucking dickhead. looking back it's crazy how close we got to american fascism.
https://thephantom.fan/collectibles/croftminster-good-mark-pendant/wish I could give you a price on lewis spears sonichu necklace, but I'm guessing over $200 dollarydoos for an unfunny video where he just gets told to fuck off.
>>2609551You're speaking like deprogram is forced to have an Aussie guest. I agree there's virtually no public figure on the left with good politics. Has it occurred to you that maybe they just should ignore Australia until we can front someone decent?
>>2607057>>Neglects to discuss the broader situation of Australian capitalism and it's position in the global order>>Neglects to discuss Australia's role in the imperialist system of domination.>>Neglects to discuss any Indigenous issues or issues arising from the settler colony situation despite being given many opportunities.Must every guest from the west talk about the exact same topic again and again or what? I mean god forbid an Australian talks about issues the Australian proletariat at large faces.
>>2609683all the issues listed are faced by the australian proletariat at large
>>2609760That is the ABCD of Zionism for you.
Zionism dies without tragedy-porn.
After October 7, any sane person would be relieved that there were no mass rapes. But the Zionist was supremely disappointed. His raping-Arab card could not be used. The Ziorat tried hard to construct evidence and push the narrative anyway. By the majority were not fooled.
>>2609672>>2609551>looking back it's crazy how close we got to american fascism.it's insane that every time we get close america does the thing and the public collectively goes "wait a minute, I hate America" and sends whatever trump clone is running into the shadow realm. The fact that this has happened consistently for almost ten years now is 1) very funny 2) quite fortunate that the left in this country has the room to quietly flounder and flail about away from international attention until it gradually gets its shit together
>>2609822You failed miserably to address the National Question for the Aboriginals. You postured as a student of Stalin but produced liberal slop instead. We await your self-criticism.
>>2609672I'd prefer if we recognised the problem and worked from there. we have Boy Boy and sort of BE so we could have the best socialist content EZ.
>>2609824Boy Boy are too busy being gay for each other and BE is too busy being gay for Hasan. You need asexual revolutionaries who only love and lust for the revolution.
>>2609826would you settle for gay for the revolution?
>>2609824Actually in terms of content creators has anyone come across Triploi? He seems pretty based I reckon. Big focus on international decolonial movements. Talks a lot about indigenous issues but from a commie perspective. I rate him, reckon he'd go off on the deprogram. Not sure if he's connected to any movements on the ground here or not
>>2609897Yeah that's him. I've checked out a few of his podcasts, and also saw a few of his shorts on xiaohongshu - I'm sure he's on tiktok, insta or whatever as well.
Communism does not come after sovereignty, it abolishes it.
>>2610758one of the things that's really nice in vietnam is the ancient temples, they were maintained cross culturally on the basis that if anyone had worshipped there that god was present and even if they didn't have eyes to see it would do well to keep a shrine there.
it's helpful to remember that we want a better world and we're not at all interested in erasing anyone's culture. we're actually in direct opposition to people that openly call for erasing all kinds different cultures. we will never have solidarity with anyone who would commit this kind of crime.
>>2611144What are you talking about this has literally nothing to do with my comment?
Who is advocating erasing culture? What a strawman holy shit.
Refusing nationalist especially ethno nationalist projects, is not erasing culture you fucking moron.
>>2611297you're actually a moron if you can't see how your post could be interpreted that way.
>>2611396more concerned about them inviting pauline hanson to their vigil and the number of cucks that were willing to ignore it.
>>2612086The two aren't even remotely related. Nothing like a libtard to equate rejection of minority ethno nationalism with cultural erasure.
Merry Christmas comrades ❤️✊🎄
Merry Christmas my dear fellow Southern-Hemisphere dwellers ♡
ARGENTINA IS DEPORTING BADEMPANADA TO AUSTRALIA
>>2612237what kind of retard can't tell the difference between national liberation and nationalism?
>>2613277Its the same thing.
>>2613277We should divide the planet along the racial lines, that would somehow help create a united working class movement right?
>>2596245>>2607076Any Sydney anons getting prepared for the NSN event? I'm on the wrong side of the country to attend unfortunately.
Perhaps water balloons filled with rotteuyghs/ old tomatoes / piss could be a good way to go about it, ruin their uniform and make them stink. These can be thrown from a distance so you can book it without getting into a direct fight.
They'll presumably be doing something on australia day in the CBD, either a march or an event near a war memorial / statue. Hardest part may just be organising a watch with comms and quick response units to have people on hand when they show up.
>>2612730Terrible. Keep the grifting bastard.
>>2613345And then sex lines, of course.
>>2613610I was wondering what could be done once locations are known. Hide a wireless battery speaker with clown music in a park, sticker the area, contaminate it with piss before the cops arrive. Not sure about the piss because it hangs around and seems like it could cause blowback for the next week.
>>2613610>They'll presumably be doing something on australia day in the CBD, either a march or an event near a war memorial / statueThis would be Hyde Park. That's also where the weekly Palestine Action Group protests were held.
The March for Australias were disrupted by the Sydney Marathon and had to go Belmore Park down to USyd (away from the CBD) while the counterrally did Prince Alfred Park to Hyde Park, then MfA2 the two routes were switched IIRC.
>>2613786* could put fertiliser in the park lol. Less sus, better metaphor.
>>2613610>I'm on the wrong side of the country to attend unfortunately.As if those cunts don't ship in interstate.
i know i know, just banter comrade ;) >>2615595Gday Burgess good to see you here.
>>261559518+ website sorry.
>>2615595>Cis white bigotsNever will be a revolution while you hold onto retarded idpol like this
>>2616040There never has been a revolution, not once in all of history, you fell for kayfabe
>>2616045Transition from nomadic hunter gatherers to settled agricultural societies, wasn't a revolution?
>>2616116It was planned from the start, it wasn’t real
>>2616316>wasstill is.
<if you smoke the green plant we will put you in a cage, but ingesting poison is fine. Unique IPs: 215