>>2393068Black Myth Wukong, but I never played it. I've also seen some interesting adventure games. They probably make a lot of good smaller titles you've never heard of unless you're into indie genres or also unless you speak Chinese, because maybe there are good ones out there only available in Chinese right now.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1746030/Murders_on_the_Yangtze_River/Recent Reviews:
Overwhelmingly Positive (320)
All Reviews:
Overwhelmingly Positive (14,085)
>>2393092On what? I was just at the gas station buying smokes yesterday actually and there was a box right next to the checkout filled with labubus and dubai chocolate, but I didn't have my phone on me to take a photo.
Why do you seem to have an emotional reaction? Why you defensive about mentioning a silly current fad? Have you built your identity around it?
>>2393068The Soviets made Tetris with extremely limited resources. Meanwhile China only puts out Chinese versions of tired trends from the AmeriKKKan and JapaneSSe industries.
Yet another L for Dengism.
>>2393205>the soviets made TetrisOne guy made Tetris in his free time and he wasn't too happy with the Soviets because they stole it from him and didn't give him a dime.
<Do you think the brains of the people that went through Communism are somewhat wired differently compared to those who only have known Capitalism?>I don’t like to think in such an abstraction about Soviet people, I don’t believe in this mentality, people are all different, and there are so many different positions and points of view. So, yes, the Soviet paradigm was very strong, and all the people of my age and my generation have been impacted by it. <I grew up in and during the Soviet Union and, despite belonging to it, I consider myself a dissident as my father was and most of my friends were. >I am still feeling the impact of this stuff on myself, though. For example, when I see a lot of people I still see them organised vertically and I am always wondering who is the boss; this vision that people are always structured as a pyramid comes to me from that time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hundred-Year_Marathon#SynopsisWorth reading? How much is truth and how much is conspiracy/conjecture? Is the author ignorant or insightful?
>inb4 WAH its biased!duh. not what I asked. Their professional job is to study a country so I'd be surprised if they just hallucinated a book.
>>2393212The
perception of non-interference. Don't confuse the two.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon >>2393343to be fair every system accuses its dissidents of being leeches.
"oooooooooh you dirty commie america raised you so good and gave you all the treats of imperial plunder and now you betray her with your dastardly collectivism"
>>2393519 (me)
>>2393528 (me)
I just wanted to add that I feel inadequate compared to bloodgasm's 20 inch BBC, with my little… iraqi… clitty…
>>2393635a liberal historian, adam tooze, recently went to china to open his eyes but the brightness was too much. but for a glorious second, some of the fog lifted, although he didn't fully understand it. he said:
>China isn’t just sort of an analytical problem, it is THE political problem. The development of China is the master key, I think, to understanding modernity. And without it, you won't have a hope of grasping what’s going on.>For folks in the West who are writing the history of modernity or attempting to think of the modern world, there just is no reasonable way of doing that anymore without a profound understanding or an effort, at least, to not just think about China, but in a sense almost to think outwards from China.>This is the biggest laboratory of organized modernization that has ever been or ever will be… That changes the game. All of our previous social-theoretic theorizing was a prelude to this. The industrial history of the West was a preface to China’s industrial history. >>2393219'twas a different time.
>>2393500Everyone does cybercrime. If you don't do cyber shit you are not a real country.
>>2393779>>2393782BUT, the ruling class owns the means the of production, and there is inequality
>Non-SOE lead sectors are highly privatized, and there is a billionaire class>the boom and bust effect of capitalism is in effect in housing sectorshow do you explain this.
>>2393792The hukou system is exploited by the rich
workers prom other provinces have restriction on living in other provinces.
china can be anything but not a socialist state, it is capitalist, just not american style capitalism
>>2393209Because unfortunately, Occupied Palestine has been a very good partner for China. From Occupied Palestine, China has received loads of military tech, the J-10 that was in the news for shooting down the Rafale may have been based on an Occupier prototype called the "Lavi", Chinese air-to-air missiles got their start from Occupier missiles like the Python.
Trade with Occupied Palestine is therefore, kind of a net-benefit for China. As for the Palestinians? I've always said that onus is on the Western proles to do something about their countries actively aiding and abetting the genocide (mass tax evasion, or even outright uprising) as opposed to the neutral party on the other side of the world. I wouldn't even blame the Arabs too much since they're all under the nuclear umbrella.
>>2393845Wrong. Socialist commodities alleviates poverty stricken gazans.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/23/c_137058111.htmYou want socialist commodities to stop flowing to palestinians. You want palestinians to suffer. You are zionist.
>>2393338>It's a BOTW ripoffYou still on this after 5 years? Do you still call FPS games "Doom clones"?
>>2393845>From Occupied Palestine, China has received loads of military tech, the J-10 that was in the news for shooting down the Rafale may have been based on an Occupier prototype called the "Lavi"Very
interesting that the True Socialists use the literal exact same arguements used by American jingoists 20 years ago to demean Chinese engineering. Kind of like how they became Palestine's bestest friend after they discovered they could use this against China as though they were the ones supplying free bombs to the tune of billions to Tel Aviv. The J-10 looks like the Lavi for the same reason that it looks like the Eurofighter, Novi Avion and Rafale - because this was the trend in fighter design during the 1980s when it was designed. There was also a cancelled fighter called the J-9 that looks a lot like the J-10 and is the most likely influence for the J-10. There's absolutely no evidence that the J-10 is a "Lavi clone" or that anything other than Chinese engineering was used to create the J-10.
>>2393873>Socialist commodities alleviates poverty stricken gazans.All the article proves is that China trades with both the occupiers and gaza, not sure what your problem is
>>2394219>There's absolutely no evidence that the J-10 is a "Lavi clone"If you say so, I already said may have. But the evidence for missiles and other advanced aircraft is undeniable
https://web.archive.org/web/20170308122426/http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp473.htmUncle Sam had to step in to block this one. This is all publicly available information.
So to restate the point, trade with Occupied Palestine has generally been a net-benefit for China. Hence why China will never come down too hard on Occupied Palestine.
>>2393338All FPS is either a DOOM ripoff, Halo ripoff or CoD ripoff asking for more money by that metric.
Gacha are a game genre that mostly don't get any respect by their creators.
>>2395799Comrade, where can I learn about Hoxhaism and Impact of Hoxha had on Albania?
Or is it just meme?
>>2398190Reminds me of the french diplomat the Chinese spis entrapped with an actor who pretended to be a woman off-stage to trick him. They even got an orphan and pretended s/he had a child.
It was a famous actor as well. To this day i still don't understand why they didn't just get a woman spi instead of doing the whole 90's comedy esque escapade.
>>2399772Westoid projection
China is a net exporter of labor power while west is s net kmporter
average income in china is literally world average
They mathematically can't be treatlerite
Btw anti-consumerism is a fascist dogwhistle
>>2399784>China will never get to socialism in 2050 as the food delivery market will pass 1 trillion USD in 2035 and make the PRC a fully irredimable treatlerite countryWatch as people here unironically say this a few years from now.
>>2399844People say Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerburg ruined the Internet. I say that Jack Dorsey did more than either of them to ruin the Internet. I will never get why the Left loved that fucking regime change app known as Twitter so much. It has been the source of almost every negative thing that's come out of the Internet for over a decade.
>>2399802Neither China nor Yugoslavia are/were socialist but still I don't condone Western attacks against them.
>NATO opIs accusing people of being intelligence assets the only thing you guys have in response when people say even the most remotely negative thing about China? Yoshimi is a communist who has lived in China for a great part of his life and I trust his judgement on Chinese society far more than online dengists whose knowledge of China comes exclusively from ML shitposts and Cheng Weihua tweets. You should read his blog for a more detailed account on how consumerism and market reform affected the Chinese:
https://lateralthinkingtechnology.wordpress.com/2022/10/21/the-billion-yuan-question-the-everyday-in-china-socialist-modernity-and-why-im-bored-of-talking-about-billionaires/ >>2399922I was wondering if I should buy a labubu but I'm thinking the trend will already be over by the time its arrived from shipping and I don't have anyone significant to show it to who would understand so I guess I won't
unless I find it at a physical store somewhere Ig
>>2399876>I will never get why the Left loved that fucking regime change app known as Twitter so much.Same, but what i'll never get is why they're so insistent on spreading their twitteroid shit across different websites, always posting screenshots to their site, only want to talk about things that are downstream to what twitter is talking about, etc. It's incredibly obsessive behaviour but if they're so obsessed why not just stay on the platform with the people like them?
I think i will never understand these twitteroids.
>>2399772Why is it saying sth like
>my real opinionalways be followed by the most retarded shit ever
It's btw a terrible expression, like "let's be honest"
because of the implication you see
Are you lying/just saying things the rest of the time?
That out of the way, I think it helps to not see things in a black-and-white way. Even if that alone is "not real communism" again.
What is over-consumption?
I "pride" myself on austere living but I have maybe 5-10 kilos too much, drink and smoke. Some of my vices I am "on my way" to fixing, at least reduce consumption.
Well, only time will tell if that actually happens. Good intentions are cheap. What matters is of course, staying power, follow through.
Anyway, life needs things to live. And if you can afford it, of course you will drive up consumption. Have you tried subsisting on the bare minimum? I haven't, I can only imagine it sucks monumentally.
Don't get old, kids. If you can at all avoid it. And fix your posture.
>>2400364Where do you get your clothing?
Not to judge too harshly here, I have been looking into getting things second hand. But I am a bit of a germaphobe. I don't think I enjoy used clothes. And I really own very little clothes, however I need some every summer and every winter because of wear and tear.
Judge not, lest ye be judged, eh
>>2399911Everyone in the west who isn't explicitly an anti-imperialist is a NATO-op since birth.
Everyone calls themselves a communist these days, it doesn't mean anything. Neither does living in china (see serpentza)
If you don't actively deconstruct your westoid nietzschean brainwashing, you will think of yourself as a pro-china communist while secretly disdaining "the simple minded consumerist bugmen who just want to enjoy their lives instead of striving for GREATNESS (will to power)"
>>2400373That's good and I wasn't denying it. Just a shot in the dark. Don't hold it against me, eh
I do much the same in terms of clothes.
My larger point being it's a gradient. People will spend if they have the means.
Meaning we are in the realm of quantitative difference, not qualitative.
I don't even know what a gradient is, truthfully. English motherfucker
Sometimes things/expressions just pop up in my mind and I don't even know if they even make sense. Still I use them. Language sure is tricky.
Reposted for clarity (or something)
>>2399922Westoids accuse the biggest net producers in the world of "overconsumption".
Explain how this is not just another way of expressing "fucking third world insect slaves should spend their labor-power on ME, instead of enjoying the fruits of their own labor"
>>2399772being anti-AI is such an easy tell tell for petty-bourgeois libshittery
Noooo not my "authentic" "real" arterino (petty bourg artisan commodity).
There's a lot of AI generated graphics on store fronts and ads etc here as well, because it's more efficient than paying a petty bourg artisan, deal with it.
>>2396726I need Labubu
I need to support Chinese communism with Labubup
>>2400380Didn't even call it "over-consumption" far as I can see. Just "consumerism", meaningless at best.
Life needs things to live. We have to go back to basics here, but I already said my piece more or less.
There are degrees to this shit.
Degrees, that was the word.
"Consumerism", fucking meaningless. The basic question is to what degree are you "over-consuming".
Everyone, every organism consumes. Again, super simple stuff, however I feel it is most appropriate to this dumb level of discussion, such as it is.
>>2400404>same as in the WestExactly. Anti-consumerism, when targeted at thevwest, id s manifestation of imperial subject anxiety from the knowledge how those goods are obtained, and when targeted at the third world, it's bourgeois anxiety that the proles are consuming instead of producing. "If you've got time to lean…"
There's nothing in marx about "consumerism", sorry libshit
>>2400408Proletarian artists (eg those employed by the state or studios) have no reason to bitch about AI, it literally makes their lives easier & increases their output. Especially in a planned economy
The only ones bitching are petty booj artisans, whom it undercuts
Ok got a little angry there again
>>2400439>an end unto itselfbs again, do you even know what an end in itself is?
If you ask anyone they can tell you, more or less rationally, why they do what they do and consume what they consume.
You think people want to be fat? Consume to consume, what a concept.
Again, I can only advise "sort out your own house first". Basic shit.
>>2400442>Why would a society, that has huge productive edge over capitalism, with workers controlling the measns of production, be more frugal and stoic and ascetic than a capitalist society?You're again missing the point. Consumerism =/= consumption. It's consumption as its
own end. Consuming in ways that are deliberately inefficient or conspicuous simply to demonstrate how much you can consume. It's the modern equivalent of European gentry having lawns just to show that they had so much land they could afford to waste it by planting grass.
>If you ask anyone they can tell you, more or less rationally, why they do what they do and consume what they consume.Ask somebody why they buy expensive clothing brands instead of generic cheap stuff of similar or better quality and they'll say they're buying it simply to own the brand. This is widespread phenomenon in capitalist societies and you have to actually be retarded to pretend it doesn't exist.
The absolute state of this place, self proclaimed "communists" pretending to not understand basic bitch concepts like consumerism.
>>2400439Woah, sabocat started speaking in fluent hitlerese
This always eventually happens with "anti-thirdworldists", " anti-multipolarists", in short, western labor-chauvinists
>>2400450>Consumerism is consumption without production like what we see in imperialist countries. Sorry Anon but you can't just make up your own meanings for words that already have clear definitions.
>>2400451Consumerism is consumption as its own end rather than the practical satisfaction of needs. If you buy clothing because you need to be clothed you aren't engaging in consumerism, even if it's good quality or expensive clothing. If you buy expensive brand name clothing specifically so you can show people you have expensive brand name clothing, you are engaging in consumerism.
Ah shit here we go again
I am getting to old for this shit
No matter, one last slam dunk of a liberal, then I will pursue something more productive (see how that works btw, give me another hit of that internet, I can see a semi-funny meme, that's the shit)
I can't even get behind that mindset or that speculation of what goes on in other people's head.
And I am very good at that myself, I daresay. And yes, that is a thinly concealed threat.
You think everyone is all jokerfied?
>It's not about the money, it's about sending a message.
And not just in the west but the world over? No, talk to people.
Damn
"consume to consume", dumbest shit I read in days, and I read a shitton (a metric fuckton even) of dumb shit on the regular.
Kant's brain challenged successor ova here
>>2400459>So, mass produced fast fashion is consumerism because it's cheap crab to be thrown away after a few usesI didn't say that.
>Luxury brands are consumerism because its tacky brand worshipYes, brand worship is consumerism.
>Best is practical, sensible, midrange quality wear, produced by your local tailorThe best practice is high quality, functional, aesthetically pleasing clothing produced by socialist industry to meet the needs of the population.
>>2400460>Every society btw has the "pursuit of status" and "consumption as identity"Not every society, just the class based ones. And capitalism takes it to a much more absurd and excessive level to the point where its destroying the ecosystem and ourselves.
>>2400461>What if I choose Chinese because it has better accessibility and functionality than Westoid analogs?That's not consumerism it's just choosing a better product. By comparison always buying Nintendo products regardless of their cost or quality because you identify with the brand is consumerism because the point has ceased to be acquiring an actual functional good. The point then has become consumption for the sake of consumption.
Learn history
Actually lemme help you out
cause I am such a nice guy
And I do think a number of you can profit (in the colloquial sense) from the basics here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Doln%C3%AD_V%C4%9BstoniceDoes this look like "over-consumption"?
She's a big girl
>>2399772Funny how these narratives started popping up after the world found out that china isn't actually a mass of starving slaves living in polluted collapsing cities.
Now the narrative is "china is a CONSUMERIST SUCCDEM CAPITALIST COUNTRY NO BETTER THAN US"
^ explains their prosperity with "they just doing succdem capitalism"
^ therefore, no alternative to capitalism exists, it's all just capitalism
^ justifies imperial aggression and chauvinism because "they're just a consumerist capitalist society same as ours, it's all grey on grey who cares"
Westerners are shameless.
>>2400512What is the cure for such behavior?
Bullet to the dome.
>>2399359>All those guys thought they were fucking someone's wifeI doubt this guy is thinking he is doing the cunnilingus to someone's wife… Which makes me wonder how many of these guys were just gay and how many thought they were fucking with a woman, because there are certainly some, you can see them trying to see what's under the skirt…
I hope few of them are gay men because this must really suck for them, I mean also for the cheaters but I don't really care for them.
>>2400565Woah woah woah, let's not accidentally misgender people
Do we know if it's an actual trans person, or merely a crossdressing gay man?
>>2400613nobody cares about your 'treats' and your 'treatlerires' go back to twitter and stay there you OBSESSED faggot.
You are beyond pathetic.
>>2399772I have no idea if she's right, but I do know that the book she cites is tiring mulling on "tradition". The author isn't a communist and the book is worthless from a communist perspective.
>At the back of the atelier, sectioned off by shelves, Tang Xiaodu has his new friend sit down in a comfortable armchair, he sits down next to him, pours him a cup of tea, and it can be seen that he feels at home at Zeng’s place, and Stein is happy that at last he has a chance to talk to him, and after he listens, as Tang Xiaodu slightly rectifies the explanation of a moment ago concerning the two Chinese characters, that is, the two signs conceal a release of the soul’s tension as well as an inundation of the spirit, nearly bursting-out—the visitor from far away starts to say something, how he feels himself to be in such a difficult situation, for that which he admires so much, which at the beginning of this journey to China he thought still lived in the depths, unbroken, which he thought still nourished the China of today from these depths—well, he is happy that he can complain about this now to Tang Xiaodu: because he, Stein, sees this last ancient civilization, this exquisite manifestation of the creative spirit of mankind, as dead, and he is afraid that apart from Tang Xiaodu there is no one to really talk to about this, and he is afraid that there won’t be anyone to talk to about this, because his experience is that people consider the opposite to be true, and celebrate the renewal of Chinese traditions in cultural monuments restored in the most dreadful and coarse ignorance, or their attention is engaged exclusively by modern life, and are altogether unconcerned with that which was, even if it has passed, their own spiritual tradition.<vgh, an industrial society has a qualitatively different culture from a feudal society. I am very intelligent because uhh…<look, five more historical references with no context!I had to force myself to look over the material to try and find anything that stood out from this gray mass, and this feels like a good one. Marxism bounces off of the author's head.
>But Mrs Liu is cut from too stern a material to be thrown off her rhythm, and Stein feels as if he were listening to a speaker at a Chinese Communist Party meeting, the platitudes gushing out unimpeded and unswayed; but what is even more dispiriting in this plastic paradise is that Mrs Liu doesn’t understand what they’re talking about, Mrs Liu cannot comprehend what they want to say to her because, as far as Mrs Liu is concerned, ‘change is the natural law of historical development’ in which ‘the modern and the traditional must coexist in harmony’—well, from this point on Stein makes no effort to try to force things, and it isn’t even necessary, because the chief executive of the justifiably renowned Shanghai Museum needs no questions in order to say what she has learnt, and Mrs Liu recites and recites her lesson—when suddenly they notice that a single human trait of this highly placed functionary, this inaccessible official, this being whose beauty and femininity are by necessity concealed in the neutrality of the uniform of a high-ranking civil servant, a single human trait remains undisguised, perhaps because it cannot be disguised; that while speaking, like someone occasionally giving in to a bad habit, Mrs Liu takes a lock from her wondrously glittering, ebony black hair, from where it falls above her shoulder near her tiny, fine ear, she takes one lock, more precisely, the end of a completely fine strand, she pulls it in front of her face and places the end in her mouth, evidently unconsciously, and she recites and recites what she has to recite but all the while sucking for a few seconds at this clearly sweet lock of hair. Then like someone who realizes what she is doing, she quickly throws it back, straightens it, then a few minutes later, as she forgets herself, starts the whole thing again.
>Not a single sentence remains, not a single word from the so-called conversation which lasts for about an hour, only this one tiny fault in the Liu mechanism; they cannot remember her beautiful noble face with any precision, they cannot recall the colour of her clothes, already after three or four days it is all mixed up if she had two or three glittering diamonds on her fingers, if she was wearing, for example, a bracelet, no, not even that, almost nothing, they can only recall that movement[…]I don't understand why a communist would use this book to make a point. It's not good at describing the problems that the xitter user in question found in a digestible way.
>>2400512China is a social democrat country with markets and a capitalist mode of production. The Capitalist reform led to the erosion of communal life of the Mao era and has led to an individualized atomized society that values capital accumulation and consumption of commodities above anything else just like in liberal western societies. No, this doesn't mean that I want Western military intervention in China, you fucking schizophreni.
Sorry to burst your bubble and ruin your noble savage view of Chinese people as perfect patriot New Soviet men
>>2401007if this is true, then this "erosion" and "atomization" and "individualization" should have some material consequences on the fabric of society.
Can you provide some evidence that china suffers similar social issues and to the same extent as western capitalist countries? This should be easy if it's a capitalist society just like the west.
>>2401054>Can you provide some evidence that china suffers similar social issues Is there not poverty, corruption, wealth inequality and exploitation of labor in China? Do you honestly believe it's a perfect communist utopia where nothing bad ever happens?
>To the same extent as Western societies No one is denying that China is a better place to live than most Western countries at the moment (provided you're middle class Han Chinese living in one of the big cities) but they're still a Social democrat country at best and the historical role of social democracy has been to regulate Capitalism, not eradicate it nor its illnesses.
>>2401170Socialism is a mode of production not an idealist abstraction.
It is YOU who's being an idealist for believing China is Socialist simply because they call themselves so.
>>2401112"Social democracies" are usually countries with a population of ~10 million in the Western European imperial core. China had to abandon full universal healthcare because some parts of China developed so fast and independent of the state sector that state healthcare couldn't keep pace and give equal coverage across all of China. This not something that should necessarily be celebrated.
Healthcare is a non-productive sector. This means that the quality of healthcare in any country will depend on the productive sector of that country and will never magically advance on its own. This was true even when everything was 100% state run and funded under Mao and prompted him to launch the system of barefoot doctors, which was still much more low-quality and especially low-tech compared to urban healthcare. Western China will take a long time reach a level of economic output similar to Eastern China. What you are demanding is not something that, let's say, Sweden already has. What is currently happening in China is more like if Sweden decided to pay for half of the healthcare spending of every, let's say, Iraqi person beyond maintaining its own universal healthcare system. You are demanding that Sweden should pay for nearly everything (based on the ratio of per capita GDP between a coastal province and a poor inland province to calculate how much a rich and a poor province could contribute to a full universal coverage), not just half.
Chinese healthcare might have been a capitalist nightmare in the '90s which, from what I've read and what I know directly as someone from an Eastern European country, was most likely preceded by the breakdown of state-run healthcare as bribery of doctors became extremely rampant and de-facto mandatory with the lack of proper salaries and equipment caused by privatization and extreme competition in a country the size of China.
Things have improved a lot with universal basic coverage and subsidized coverage for people designated as poor. 90% percent of hospital services are provided by state-owned hospitals and usually only they have access to high-tech high-cost treatments like MRI and PET scans. Currently private hospitals are for posh people who want their feet kissed and would like to cut in line, even if it means paying unnecessary amounts of money. In a way, this is part of human nature. No matter how good services the state provides, people will wonder if they can get the healthcare system to allocate more resources to their own relatives when they see them suffering or dying. If the state is too lenient in this regard, "prestigous" quack doctors will proliferate and fleece a ton of people like in the US. On the other hand there is nothing wrong with bourgeois retards getting fucked by other capitalists. What happens in the bedroom should stay in the bedroom.
It's obvious that it's the 'muricans who are laser-focused on healthcare as the primary measure of socialism. In reality there is no other capitalist country that is so retarded that it would allow rent-seeking behaviour in the healthcare sector without any boundaries and let huge masses of people die or get disabled every year just to funnel rent to a particular section of capital when they could keep them healthy instead so they can be exploited by any capitalist for longer span of time.
>>2401103The definition of social democracy itself.
>>2401112Insurance is not free healthcare.
>>2401266Cont.
In the end, current level of development is due to the state sector and how it was able to funnel partially capitalist development into the state sector, including state-run services. China is a country with a partially capitalist economy overseen by the state and a communist party. Western socdem countries are worker's paradises at first glance for people outside the imperial core or for people that are not from capitalist hellscape that is the US. In reality their level of development and wealth have been maintained by capitalist exploitation of the third world and they never had a real socialist government that controlled the economy. As a result the moment bankers who control Western economies decided that it isn't strategically beneficial for them to treat workers well, they started slowly eroding social progress regardless of who the people voted in power. In contrast the Chinese economy is controlled by the state and everything is improving gradually with people reporting astronomically high rates of satisfaction with the CPC.
>>2401273Do you realize that European healthcare systems without upfront costs are still paid for by the people? It isn't even muh tax dollars/whatever currency that the state could spend on "better" things (give it all to billionaires) as a braindead American conservative would say. Fully state-run healthcare is usually paid for by a special tax the the government can only spend on healthcare or general social security.
Paying out of pocket literally means nothing if there is no rent seeking behaviour, the poorest of the poor get coverage and services are physically available everywhere.
Stupid Chinese people why did they decided to be born in a country that was semi-feudal and semi-colonial less than a century ago? Just be a person from a country that won the geopolitical lottery during the cold war and spent the previous hundred years pillaging every non-Western country.
>>2401299Even in countries with universal healthcare that gives you full coverage you can decide to not pay social security tax so that you will be forced to pay for every doctor's visit. Just like how you can decide to not pay property, income, etc. taxes and nothing will happen beyond being summoned to a court, having your bank account drained then your belongings and real estate auctioned.
There are very few countries with free healthcare that is actually free and not paid for by targeted taxes. I'd imagine it's only gulf monarchies that pay for it with oil revenues and maybe North Korea where it's directly paid for by SOEs without any taxation system.
>>2401304ok well but you gotta post proof for
that because those articles say internal chinese migrants specifically
>>2401299Wrong it is a right according to basic health law
Article 15 Basic medical and healthcare services refer to such services as disease prevention, diagnosis, treatment, nursing and rehabilitation that are essential to maintaining human health, adapted to the level of economic and social development, equitably accessible by all citizens, and provided through the application of appropriate medicines, techniques and equipment.
>>2401317You have demonstrated no evidence to back your claim that foreigners are not equal in Communist China.
>>2401319🤓
>>2401315Dayum, Bordiga can't support China anymore le sad
>>2401315Hitlerites are edgy SocDems.
>>2401321BordiGOD still making opportunists and falsifiers extremely ass pained to this day.
>>2401315>Which means dengists are winning, couple months ago China was Hitlerite, now its socdem, they are slowly getting whittled downIt's very telling that the Actual Socialists seem to be unable to pin down what exactly China is. On the one hand it is fascist, then it is social-democrat and then it's neoliberal and this in just in this very thread.
>>2401349Since most people here obviously don't read (And you very obviously show this) and Dimitrov might be a bit too advanced for you, I'll give my own definition: Fascism is a counter-revolutionary movement lead by the bourgeoisie against the proletariat using downwardly-mobile petit-bourgeois and lumpen-proletarians as foot soldiers. Appealing to the most reactionary strata of society, fascism sees liberalism as having failed to prevent the rise of socialism and tries to avert class conflict through aggressive militaristic nationalism, crushing anything remotely socially progressive.
>>2401438>USSR had private property, markets in majory controlled by the state and planned by the state.
>commodity productionthe only one they had.
>they were operating under a capitalist mode of production although one mostly administrated by the State-so they didn't had Private property only commanded by the state to be organized by their workers, nor the value produced would go to the hands of capitalist class as they were liquidadet.
>inb4 you could argue that x were comparable to y in the USSRComparations aren't theoretical evaluations, you could compare capitalism enough to make them feudalist, they aren't.
>State Capitalist.complete joke of an label, shows weak capacity in analysis, all capitalism is state capitalism yet not a single one will/did/can have private market relations without an actual capitalist class to engage in said pushing of the state for their private gains, after all who the fuck is gonna need to engage in financerism or privatisation if they have no actual econimic power thus real power to bank on and use the state for their own goals lile any capitalist would do, People pushing for this empty label need new material.
>>2401367>Pinochet was a social-democrat neoliberal fascist, lol. its not contradictory.Fucking pseud. Pinochet killed or exiled thousands of Chilean leftists, including many social-democrats because they were considered Allende supporters.
>>2401395That's because you're probably a borderline illiterate that can't define much of anything that isn't spoon-fed to you by social-media algorithms.
>>2401403>Admitting that China is socialist means admitting them opposing communism. As simple as. USSR was denied the right of being socialist by all the Westoid ultras for this very same reasonIt's always been funny to me how they're the truest fucking socialists that ever lived, yet their only praxis is simping for regime change and proxy wars. Instead of defending socialist countries under attack, they seem more keen on prove that they aren't True Socialists and deserve no support. Remember their rallies to support the "Libyan Revolution" back in 2011? Remember how people here were celebrating the "fall of the dictator" in Syria last December?
>>2401423>not really libtards, its worseI had always wondered what kind of wretched filthy cowards fought alongside the Japanese to enslave their own country. One look at that subreddit and you'll have your answer.
>>2401446>So liberal democracy?It would actually be worse than that. Put a bunch of fascists in power and hope it works out. This will somehow eventually lead to True Socialism, just like the Syrian Revolution! The sacrifices of the rebels of 1989 and Wang Jingwei's forces will not have been in vain!
>>2401466It makes your booty hurt so it works, doesn't it?
>>2401471https://www.marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1956/12/bukharin.htmlHe did defend Bukharin and the NEP as strategic retreats on the face of the USSR being isolated and technologically backwards but never once he claimed this was at any point Socialism. However Dengist capitalist reforms were a thousand times worse than the NEP, let alone the complete neoliberal ratfuckery that came under Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao's rule.
Xi is a step in the right direction but he still is playing too much of an "enlightened centrist" bureaucrat without any real beliefs other than total supremacy of the State just like he criticized the Stalinists as being in the article I linked.
>>2401477And what of it? That's not even winning at the special olympics or a particularly low bar. I don't know what that is. A barking dog would be better, in terms of informational content. I don't want to hear from any of these people.
A lot of them (or all of them) seem to think we are here to hear their obnoxious shit. No, we visit this place despite their presence. I thought we just had bad luck with identityfags for some time. But now I see you have to be a special kind of obnoxiously stupid to have the desire to pick up an identity to post here. That's why their takes reflect a terribly uneducated largely narcissistic, total overconfidence in their opinion etc.
>>2401427Westoid is a state of mind, bub. Akin to zionist and in large part overlapping.
Also ofc there is no use arguing the second part of your run-on sentence. This isn't even a loaded question, it's already beyond that. Just a spew of nonsense, as per usual. Show your work then.
No work, no right to speak.
>>2401315*ding ding*
It sure is slow going trying to inject some modicum of historical awareness (colonialism etc.) into liberals et al.
This situation is basically the same.
>>2401359That's not what I was talking about. Any country can institute universal healthcare of a certain quality like Mao did with doctors that practiced medicine based on feudal superstitions, but no country can institute healthcare that doesn't match its level of development of the productive forces. The CPC accepted elements capitalism in the field of healthcare and in general because China had to get ahead in development at all costs.
The way things currently stand basic coverage covers everyone so there is no distinction between people with and without a residency permit. The vast majority hospitals are state owned that people pay out-of-pocket expenses to. European countries with full universal coverage have people pay for healthcare from their own pockets, it's just that it's just that the insurance fee is withdrawn from people's bank account every month before they'd receive as what is called a "tax". Social security is a special tax on income, it doesn't draw from profits directly. People with a higher reported income will pay more, but China more than makes up for it by massive investments into healthcare by the state when a lot of "socdem" European countries deliberately underfund their state-run healthcare so they can give all of their budget to Blackrock-controlled companies in the form of subsidies.
You are mostly complaining about legal technicalities when the CPC has a massive track record in championing the interests of Chinese workers.
https://kdwalmsley.substack.com/p/espionage-and-pentagon-takeovers?
Espionage and Pentagon takeovers of mines as China's Rare Earth Metals ban slams weapons makers…
>This is from Modern War Institute. There is a nice photo here of an assembly line for warplanes, and with a headline that complains that China is weaponizing their supply of shiny rocks that those guys in the photo need to make their planes work. China’s export controls on rare earth elements were “a shot across the bow of the US defense industrial base.” Fighter jets, satellites, missiles, submarines—nobody can build them without materials made in China. 90% of the rare earth magnets come from here, and 85% of the refined rare earths, so the United States and their allies don’t have the raw materials to fight a future war. At the peak of the Cold War, over 40 years ago or so, the United States had $42 billion of reserves, now it’s under $1 billion.
>So the Defense Department has no choice now, but to get into the mining business. The Pentagon is investing directly in some companies that can do some rare earth mining, but it won’t be until 2027 at the earliest that any new production comes out of the ground, if then. And that’s just raw materials. Then they still need to be refined, and turned into magnets.
>The Pentagon bought a 15% stake in MP Materials to build some magnets. The entire world is reliant on China for rare earth metals, and MP Materials is the only mine in the United States that is operational, right now. MP produces only a handful of the materials the Pentagon needs to build stuff, but something is better than nothing, and better late than never.…
>>2401747"Dengism" and "NEP" are horrible framing of the issue
USSR's war communism was essentially the same as Mao's socialism. After war communism, NEP followed. After Mao's initial accumulation of state capital, Deng came in and expanded on Mao's policies that were already happening.
Both were continuation of their countries' previous policies. People just don't realize that unlike Russia, whcih was a hundred years behind, China was two or three hundred years behind. Development takes a lot of time. In the future we will see some African nation pulling off a catch up, and retards of the future would say shit about their NEP being too long to qualify for socialism
>>2402885I wish they would be faster to produce high end GPUs/CPUs so I can ethically
treat myself with chinese chips instead of amerikkkan
>>2403050There are no capitalists in Communist China. The exploiters, as a class, were eliminated by 1981.
https://www.marxists.org/subject/china/documents/cpc/history/01.htm>>2403077There is no capitalism in Communist China. By 1952, the socialist transformation of private ownership of the means of production has been completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished, and a socialist system established.
https://www.marxists.org/subject/china/documents/cpc/8th_congress.htm I've finally started archiving the PRC threads. Here's the two most recent ones:
https://archive.is/PdEHXhttps://archive.is/w2jbjIf anybody has any archives of old PRC threads that you'd like to contribute, that would be good. Also, I finally tried Deepseek a few days ago and it really is as smart as people here say it is.
>>2403605>Portrays China as these Pripyat-esque ruins.Everyday it's more and more obvious how utterly out of ideas the anti-China grifters are.
>>2403631was that a femboy nekonomimi dipsy
>I finally tried Deepseek a few days ago and it really is as smart as people here say it is.other open weight model participants in the industry iterates fast yet deepseek would not release a new model until chinese holidays even its behind leading open weight models
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2025/07/taiwans-voters-reject-anti-chinese-recall-plot.htmlTaiwan's Voters Reject Anti-Chinese Recall Plot
>In January 2024 Taiwan's current President Lai Ching-te won the election against two other candidates. (Taiwan has no run off elections.)
>His Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) though, which supports Taiwan's independence from China, failed to get a majority in parliament. The opposition was thus, by controlling the budget, able to prevent Lai Ching-te from furthering a split from the Chinese homeland.
>Like many recent election winners in so called democracies Lai Ching-te set out to manipulate the system to win powers the voters had been unwilling to concede to him. He organized a recall campaign against dozens of opposition lawmakers in the hope to gain a majority in parliament.
>The New York Times reporting of it (archived) seemed to be in favor of this:
<Voters in Taiwan face a critical decision on Saturday: whether to throw out 24 opposition lawmakers they elected just last year, in an extraordinary recall campaign that could put more power in the president’s hands but add to tensions with Beijing.
<The vote threatens to flip the legislative balance in favor of President Lai Ching-te, who wants Taiwan to forge a future separate from China, against an opposition that favors closer ties with Beijing. …
<This weekend, two dozen Nationalist Party lawmakers face recall votes; an additional seven will next month.
<To supporters, the “great recall” campaign reflects the vigor of Taiwan’s democracy, which emerged in the 1980s after decades of authoritarian rule under the Nationalist Party. Although a successful campaign would help Mr. Lai, many activists promoting the recalls say they are acting independently.
<“We’re building a decentralized grass-roots movement,” said Molly Kuo, an organizer of one of the recall efforts in New Taipei. “We’re witnessing a deepening of democracy.”
>A "decentralized grass-roots movement" that is running a well organized, millions of dollars campaign against parliament members of one specific party ???
<Recall of a significant number of opposition lawmakers would make it much easier for Mr. Lai to push his agenda, which includes shifting Taiwan’s economy further from China. He could also appoint his preferred judges to Taiwan’s high court.
>The recall votes were held today and the results are in. The voters did not fall for it.
>In a rather pathetic attempt to cover the loss of its campaign the DDP party is urging everyone to not see the whole affair as what it is:
<The defeat of a recall campaign against 24 KMT lawmakers should not be interpreted as the outcome of a struggle between political parties, the DPP argued Saturday.
<Results showed all 24 legislators survived the vote, with anti-recall votes surpassing pro-recall in every election district, per the Central Election Commission. …
<Speaking to reporters Saturday evening, DPP Legislative Caucus Secretary-General Rosalia Wu (吳思瑤) called on the public not to rush to conclusions.
<The party’s secretary-general, Lin Yu-chang (林右昌), echoed her remarks, saying the recall votes had not been a fight between political parties, so the result should not be interpreted as a victory or a defeat for one party or another, the Liberty Times reported.
>Sure.
>As Arnaud Bertrand comments:
<[This] couldn't be more ironic coming from the same party that explicitly framed the entire campaign as exactly this: presenting themselves, the DPP, as heroically trying to "save Taiwan's democracy" from the KMT, painting them as existential threats because of their pro-China bent. But now that they lost they suddenly want to pretend it was all just a non-partisan civic exercise.
>The NYT report, written before the voting, noticed that this outcome would have consequences:
<Widespread rejection of the recalls could hint at tepid support for Mr. Lai’s party ahead of local and presidential elections, experts say.
>With his anti-China position Lai Ching-te is the U.S.' preferred candidate. As he is now likely to lose the next presidential election Taiwan should watch out for some of the usual U.S. directed manipulations. >>2405154Taiwan honestly has a better QoL on average than China, owing to its higher GDP per capita nominal AND a ridiculous GDP per capita PPP.
But generally, don't worry too much. Taiwan's semiconductor shield is also a silicon noose around the necks of the West. If the West extricated itself from the noose, Taiwan gets fucked and is ripe for peaceful reunification.
>>2405406Money and opportunities. Taiwan is rich with semiconductor money, for now. But of course, this monopoly is fucked between China and the US.
Their best case scenario is to arrange reunification in 10-30 years with one country two systems for 30-50 years, while importing cheap Chinese lithography machines.
>>2407015Wrong. Socialist commodities alleviates poverty stricken gazans.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-03/23/c_137058111.htmYou want socialist commodities to stop flowing to Palestinians. You want Palestinians to suffer. You are zionist.
>>2394903>All the article proves is that China trades with both the occupiers and gaza, not sure what your problem isChina trades with occupied Palestine to bring prosperity to Palestinians. You lie along with western media that Communist China aids the genocide but you are wrong. China's commodities bring prosperity to Palestinians. Without China's Communist commodity stimulus Palestinians would be impoverished more greatly. The zionist media routinely explain how China's trade with occupied Palestine helps Palestinians.
https://www.jfeed.com/news-israel/israel-china-haifa-port-deal >>2407015Yeah China is like 10%+ of Israel trade and probably a greater share in terms of shipping, and they partly own haifa port like anon said
>>2407084 so they have a huge leverage and they could stop the genocide basically now if they wanted.
>>2407084>Efraim Halevy, former Mossad chief, warned in 2018 that Chinese control of strategic sites like Haifa could jeopardize Israel’s security>Dr. Harel Menashri, a Shin Bet cyber veteran, echoed this in a recent letter to the Knesset, cautioning that China could paralyze Israel’s ports in a crisis. “This isn’t just about trade. It’s about leverage,”>CIA briefings in 2019 flagged risks of Chinese cranes, made by Shanghai Zhenhua Heavy Industries (ZPMC), harboring hidden modems for remote access.>Economically, reliance on a Chinese firm that cut ties in 2024 during the Gaza war shows vulnerability—Beijing could halt Haifa’s operations again, crippling Israel’s trade lifelineYour article proves that both the Mossad and CIA believe China quite literally can cripple Israel's economy with the press of a button but they just chose not to because… Uhh idk, I guess they simply LOVE trading with Israel too much.
>>2407126>hamas does not represent palestiniansThis is literally in every hasbara handbook. You defend zionists more greatly every time you post again
>>2407150How strange that you find great value in mossad cia joint statement when they only lie. Besides, ruining occupied palestine's economy would bring greater suffering to palestinians
>>2407163>How strange that you find great value in mossad cia joint statementYou posted the article in the first place, you stupid fuck.
>Besides, ruining occupied palestine's economyGaza's economy is already ruined you stupid fucking faggot. Everyone's starving and entirely dependant on """"aid"""" given by the US and Israel. China is not helping Palestinians at all, just economically benefitting themselves and their oppressors.
>>2407171you fail to understand the article nor why it was posted. You adopt the joint cia mossad line in full.
>Gaza's economy is already ruined you stupid fucking faggot. China is not helping Palestinians at all, just economically benefitting themselves and their oppressors.You are the same mossad agent who said oct 7 was an israli operation. The economy in gaza was ruined before oct 7. Palestinians in Gaza would've had no capacity to fight back without China's commodity stimulus.
>>2407183>you fail to understand the article It's a Zionist piece trying to convince Israelis to replace Chinese companies operating in the Haifa port with American ones.
>why it was postedYou're an insane coper and thought this article proved that China actually gives a shit about Gaza.
>Palestinians in Gaza would've had no capacity to fight back without China's commodity stimulus.All of Hamas's weapons and resources come from Iran and Qatar, not China.
>>2407228>The article demonstrates that commodity stimulus from Communist China helps Palestinians.It doesn't. If anything it proves how close China and Israel's trade relationship is.
>Palestinians would be further deprived of necessities without Chinese aid. Gaza is receiving exactly zero Chinese aid
>Some weapons palestinians use are laundered through iran from Communist China.Who cares if at the end of the day they're still big friends with Iran and Palestine's greatest enemy?
>Your demand to embargo palestine of chinese goods is cia induced madnessPalestine would benefit more from a weak and economically crippled Israel.
>>2407395Socialism is merely a capitalism turned to the benefit of the whole people. Claiming that China isn't socialist is pretty dumb
>b-but muh "capitalism is proliferated with every market exchange"Capitalism in the quote is a "supporters of capitalism", capitalism in the context of "capitalist or socialist China" relates to "capitalism for the benefit of whole people"
If porkies by some miracle manage to be cucked into abandoning their class interests for following the needs of the whole people, that means these porkies are "socialist".
Like, if the Party asks you to start your own business to produce for the West and buy stuff in the West and import it that's necessary for a socialist economy, are you really a porky?
>>2407412>Socialism is merely a capitalism turned to the benefit of the whole people. Claiming that China isn't socialist is pretty dumbWhat?! This is the most craven form of shifting the goalposts I ever saw from Dengists.
No. Socialism is a form of Capitalism in crisis. Where there is Capitalism, there is exploitation, and with exploitation, there will be class conflict. China is Capitalist, as you you implicitly agree, but because they're Capitalist, that means the present Chinese state is at odds with itself, despite how vigorous the state is now. A Chinese Leftist can be dissident to the Chinese state from a Leftist standpoint and it would be legitimate–more real and legitimate than the dissident Right-Libertarians who oppose the US Federal government on the basis that it isn't Capitalist enough, in fact. On that same token, a Chinese Leftist that gets involved in the government to reform the present State to not be Capitalist anymore is also legitimate, and whatever they reform it into, it would not resemble how the Chinese state looks now.
>>2407427*blocks your scroll with first sentence of
das*
nothing personal kid 😎
>>2407436>even if Marx and Engels felt that Socialism would gradually spring out of pre-existing conditions of a given societynot what they said:
<Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke? No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
<Friedrich Engels, Principles of Communism, 1847Not "the pre-existing conditions will transform existing society gradually" but "the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually"
China has already had a proletarian revolution. It is transforming existing society gradually.
America has not had a proletarian revolution. It is your job to make that happen, Ameriburger.
>but I just wanna criticize the failures of the Chinese revolution!The scroll answers:
<If private property, money, abstract value production, class society, and the state, are abolished prematurely, when the oppressive logic and power of capital still controls the entire world, China would become vulnerable to both external imperialist violence and internal reactionary sabotage (no doubt under the banner of “democracy”). The Communist Party would be immediately compromised by foreign backed elements; the country might be torn apart once again by civil war, and once again subjected to imperialist domination. The Chinese revolution, what so many millions fought, worked tirelessly, and sacrificed their lives for, will have been for nothing. Marxism is anything but rigid and dogmatic, and has always been about adapting to the ever changing objective conditions of each era, using what ever is available toward revolutionary goals. The opinion of those baizuo who think that China should have chosen the disastrous course of action described above, or at least remained underdeveloped, poor, and weak, in order to satisfy their fundamentalist interpretation of Marxism, should not be indulged. These myopic and short-sighted “left com”, “ultra-left”, or modern “Maoist” types love to denounce modern China as a betrayal of socialism, without considering that it is the failure of the Western left to do successful revolutions in their countries which made it necessary for existing socialist states to adapt to the global conditions of entrenched neo-liberal capitalism. Those who think that 1.4 billion people, who for 200 years suffered so immensely under vicious colonial rule and brutal capitalist domination, will so quickly forget what their true enemy is, don’t know much about capitalism, colonialism, or people.<He Zhao, The Long Game and Its Contradictions, 27th October, 2018
<Taken together, these accounts tell a pretty compelling and straightforward story: a worker state led by a vanguard party has placed the productive forces developed by capitalism under human control once again, for the benefit of the many rather than the few, and so definitively begun the complex and difficult transition away from capitalism and into communism that we call socialism. Capitalists, sheltered and insular in their dealings with fellow human beings, don’t understand that they are not sympathetic characters, so they shamelessly self-victimize in the press in the hopes of winning sympathy from the masses, in a futile effort to rally the necessary fervor for military intervention. The situation looks grim for the forces of reaction. And then the Western Left bursts onto the scene with a litany of harsh recriminations, determined to build up China into a villain worthy of war: “China has billionaires.” “China still has inequality.” “China still has wage labor.” “There’s no free speech there.” “Suicide nets.” “Free Tibet.” “Xinjiang is East Turkestan.” “Liberate Hong Kong.” “Neither Washington Nor Beijing.” Their indulgence in atrocity propaganda is unparalleled, and they’ll often outdo original sources and even the most vicious reactionaries in their preening paraphrases of Chinese horror.<Roderic Day, China Has Billionaires, 5th of April, 2021
<The pure socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.<Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism, 1997
>but the American bourgeoisie loves China!The scroll answers:
<China is not a free market economy. We tried. We let them into the World Trade Organization. We sent businesses over there. We made trade deals. They are a controlled top-down economy. You will never compete and win against them, unless you take back the means of production.<Hillary Clinton, interview with Chatham House [now deleted from Youtube] (2021)
<China has found a way to use capitalism against us, and what I mean by that is the ability to attract investment into entities that are deeply linked to the state.<Marco Rubio, interview with Face the Nation on Jan. 29, 2023
>China is just doing state Capitalism!The scroll answers:
<socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly.<Lenin, The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It, Section Titled: Can We Go Forward If We Fear To Advance Towards Socialism?, 1917 >>2407458>will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.The means of production are clearly available in more than sufficient quantity in China.
>China has already had a proletarian revolution. It is transforming existing society gradually.America has not had a proletarian revolution. It is your job to make that happen, Ameriburger.
The CPC is gradually restoring capitalism in China, yes. I'm not a burger, but I wonder how there can be a proletarian revolution when the working class movements have been materialy weakened by the gradual moving of the means of production to… China. Dengoids are quick to forget that the CPC has agreed to exploit the people it is supposed to represent on behalf of Western capital, helping it squeeze more profits. Not only did the CPC betray the Chinese proletariat with this policy, it has also severely kneecaped the Western proletariat at the same time. I'd like to remind you that internationalism is a major part of the working class movement, and in that regard, Dengism has been a disaster.
>when the oppressive logic and power of capital still controls the entire world, China would become vulnerable to both external imperialist violence and internal reactionary sabotage (no doubt under the banner of “democracy”). The Communist Party would be immediately compromised by foreign backed elements; the country might be torn apart once again by civil war, and once again subjected to imperialist domination. The Chinese revolution, what so many millions fought, worked tirelessly, and sacrificed their lives for, will have been for nothing.China does absolutely nothing to foster revolutionary movements across the world. Be they in the Philipines, India, or hell, even Palestine, China does absolutely nothing, and in the worse cases, which are the majority, directly collaborates with local bourgeoisie to find openings for its commodities. China is thereby giving capitalism a lifeline to survive.
>it is the failure of the Western left to do successful revolutions in their countries which made it necessary for existing socialist states to adapt to the global conditions of entrenched neo-liberal capitalism.See my reply above.
>The situation looks grim for the forces of reaction. And then the Western Left bursts onto the scene with a litany of harsh recriminations, determined to build up China into a villain worthy of war: “China has billionaires.” “China still has inequality.” “China still has wage labor.” “There’s no free speech there.” “Suicide nets.” “Free Tibet.” “Xinjiang is East Turkestan.” “Liberate Hong Kong.” “Neither Washington Nor Beijing.” Their indulgence in atrocity propaganda is unparalleled, and they’ll often outdo original sources and even the most vicious reactionaries in their preening paraphrases of Chinese horror.I don't care about liberal points, and "reactionary forces" certainly don't care about the first issues raised, but I do. How the fuck do you get billionaires, without a parasitic class taking the surplus value of the labor of the working class? How does that help China work toward socialism? Why is the working class still exploited? Aren't they in power? Do you seriously think they would agree to spend 60 hours a week in a privately owned factory if they had any amount of power?
>They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conductedThe USSR didn't need 40 years of NEP to at least implement baby steps toward socialism. The PRC has only been working backwards.
>but the American bourgeoisie loves China!They did, until national capital in China became strong enough to become a challenger on its own. The Americans don't hate China because it is threatening the world system of capitalism (it's really not), they hate it because it has become a competitor.
>socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly.There is no state-capitalist monopoly in China anymore, the CPC (under Xi no less) made sure of it.
>>2407501>The means of production are clearly available in more than sufficient quantity in China.If this were true and China were capitalist with capitalist superstructure, then China would have Communist revolution right now. But the proletarians are happy with their proletarian dictatorship. Therefore you have rendered your entire wrong with your first proposition.
>The CPC is gradually restoring capitalism in China, yes. I'm not a burger, but I wonder how there can be a proletarian revolution when the working class movements have been materialy weakened by the gradual moving of the means of production to… China. Dengoids are quick to forget that the CPC has agreed to exploit the people it is supposed to represent on behalf of Western capital, helping it squeeze more profits. Not only did the CPC betray the Chinese proletariat with this policy, it has also severely kneecaped the Western proletariat at the same time. I'd like to remind you that internationalism is a major part of the working class movement, and in that regard, Dengism has been a disaster.Your retarded assertions have no material basis. Deng's brilliant leadership eliminated all poverty and exploiters.
>I don't care about liberal points, and "reactionary forces" certainly don't care about the first issues raised, but I do. How the fuck do you get billionaires, without a parasitic class taking the surplus value of the labor of the working class? How does that help China work toward socialism? Why is the working class still exploited? Aren't they in power? Do you seriously think they would agree to spend 60 hours a week in a privately owned factory if they had any amount of power?"Billionaire" is a social relation specific to monopoly capitalism. There are no billionaires in Communist China. Article 36 The State shall practise a working hour system wherein labourers shall work for no more than eight hours a day and no more than 44 hours a week on the average. Article 41 The employer can prolong work hours due to needs of production or businesses after consultation with its trade union and labourers. The work hours to be prolonged, in general, shall be no longer than one hour a day, or no more than three hours a day if such prolonging is called for due to special reasons and under the condition that the physical health of labourers is guaranteed. The work time to be prolonged shall not exceed, however, 36 hours a month. In the most extreme case, the maximum working week in Communist China is 52 average hours a week.
Everything you say is lie and slander
Every day I wonder if posters like
>>2407510 and "wrong, jack ma is working class" are doing some sort of elaborate baiting or if it's psychiatric level delusion. I can't call it…
>>2407511I was starting to research some data to reply to him honestly, and I was going to tell you that it takes a lot of self-convincing to unironically say that Dengism is working toward communism, then I saw this
>>2407513 and realized that I'm just wasting my time.
China isn't restoring capitalism because it was never socialist. It's not state capitalist either. There's a zillion small businesses there like anywhere else.
Socialism in one country doesn't make sense. Marx and Engels emphasized socialism required global revolution and for good reason.
>…and furthermore, because only with this universal development of productive forces is a universal intercourse between men established, which produces in all nations simultaneously the phenomenon of the “propertyless” mass (universal competition), makes each nation dependent on the revolutions of the others, and finally has put world-historical, empirically universal individuals in place of local ones. Without this, (1) communism could only exist as a local event; (2) the forces of intercourse themselves could not have developed as universal, hence intolerable powers: they would have remained home-bred conditions surrounded by superstition; and (3) each extension of intercourse would abolish local communism. Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples “all at once” and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism.
>Moreover, the mass of propertyless workers – the utterly
precarious position of labour – power on a mass scale cut off from capital or from even a limited satisfaction and, therefore, no longer merely temporarily deprived of work itself as a secure source of life– presupposes the world market through competition. The proletariat can thus only exist world-historically, just as communism, its activity, can only have a "world-historical" existence. World-historical existence of individuals means existence of individuals which is directly linked up with world history.
- German Ideology, Chapter 1
>Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?
>No. By creating the world market, big industry has already brought all the peoples of the Earth, and especially the civilized peoples, into such close relation with one another that none is independent of what happens to the others.
>Further, it has co-ordinated the social development of the civilized countries to such an extent that, in all of them, bourgeoisie and proletariat have become the decisive classes, and the struggle between them the great struggle of the day. It follows that the communist revolution will not merely be a national phenomenon but must take place simultaneously in all civilized countries – that is to say, at least in England, America, France, and Germany.
>It will develop in each of these countries more or less rapidly, according as one country or the other has a more developed industry, greater wealth, a more significant mass of productive forces. Hence, it will go slowest and will meet most obstacles in Germany, most rapidly and with the fewest difficulties in England. It will have a powerful impact on the other countries of the world, and will radically alter the course of development which they have followed up to now, while greatly stepping up its pace.
>It is a universal revolution and will, accordingly, have a universal range.
- Principles of Communism
If you like Chinese capitalism more than American capitalism, fair enough. Lots of people like the north European welfare states.
>>2407592<Communism is when zero weekly working hours.Nice strawman.
>Low working hours and mass systemic general idleness is specific to the capitalist mode of production, with the most parasitic monopolist capitalist States the most idle.Idealistic bullshit. The development of capitalism coincided with the skyrocketing of work hours. These decreased as the work needed to produce goods was decreased thanks to technological advancements. Communism, which means further development of the means of production, is synonymous with reduced work load. I'm not antiwork, far from it, but jerking off to increased working hours is anticommunist.
Also, if more work hours = more communist, than India and the BJP are more true to Marxism than China.
>>2407575That is retarded because anyone who has ever spoken with an American knows that communism can never take place there.
Marx said many smart things, but his western supremacism is legitimately retarded, hence why he got superseded by Lenin.
He kept praising people who hated him the most, now literally almost every non-western nation remembers Marx fondly and west hates him and most westerners would kill him if they could time travel.
This is why Lenin and Stalin were the real giants of Socialism.
>>2407963British and Chinese unemployment rates are similar, wtf are you talking about.
I only wanted to demonstrate how counting work hours means nothing to determining if a country is capitalist. Yet you dengoids act like it's a great mesure of anything.
Incredible. I don't understand why Turd Worldists don't like you, your understanding of Marxism is a poor as theirs.
>>2408523All of this is theoretically possible and could collapse Pissrael, but as you said, it hurts China's national and economic interests.
If not even the Soviet Union did anything to stop the Nazis from mass murdering Jews and communists until they were attacked directly by Hitler, much less will Dengoid China do anything in their power to stop the genocide of Palestinians. It greatly hurts me to say it but it looks like their fate is already set in stone but no one will EVER convince me that BRICS getting a slightly bigger GDP was worth the lives of 2 million people from Gaza.
>>2407395>it isn't SocialistWhich of the 40 definitions of socialism are you applying?
Because if you come at us with the 'Socialism is an economy with socialist MoP' then no-one is claiming it was, especially not the CPC.
Well, one schizo here did claim that but we all laugh at them.
>>2408532>but no one will EVER convince me that BRICS getting a slightly bigger GDP was worth the lives of 2 million people from Gaza.On the other hand, I think that the sooner the US empire is toppled, the more lives will be saved from a similar fate. Would it be worth allowing the US empire five or ten more years of suffering, death and devastation in exchange for 2 million people? It's not an easy choice, but there's no clean path forwards.
Moral purity is impossible in this horrible situation, the liberals who tried just end up retaining the status quo, too scared of the cost of change, tolerating the cost of doing nothing.
>>2408653Economic sanctions and blockades deeply hurt Rhodesia and South Africa. China could do this to Israel but they don't have the intention of doing so because ceasing to trade with Zionists is against their interests.
>>2408660Not sure I follow your post. Letting the genocide continue or waiting 10 more years to do something does not make the US weaker, if anything toppling Israel now would be a HUGE blow to the American empire and its interests in the Middle East and it also saves the lives of whatever remains of the 2 million people who lived in Gaza. Like, you don't have to chose one of the other in this scenario.
>>2408664Not the entire world, just Israel and its closest allies and trading partners. You Chinaboos love to post that one meme where Deng brilliantly tricks the West into de-industrializing and moving all manufacturing to China. Well, what good is this advantageous position regarding trade and industrial power if they're not willing to use it as leverage and a bargaining chip when shit gets real?
I was annoyed at the guy going like "China is a worker's paradise". But now, at last I truly see. I was looking at it in a "trying to be reasonable" lens. But as shown again and again, there is simply no arguing with these people.
What is happening here is that he is your opposite number complete with constant, constant repetition of basic (and wrong) points. I won't bother to ask why you do it.
(speaking of course about the unreal socialists, ultras etc., whatever silly name they wear). He is your foil, as he simply takes the opposite position as you.
Who else will be your opposite number? Me? Please, I am way beyond you, there is no productive discussion to be had.
Which I suspect is the reason I frequent this place anyway, at this stage. It's "fun" to be a big fish in a small pond. And how might this be achieved? by simply doing a modicum of actual reading. Yes, it is that easy. I am in the top percentile in terms of marxist theory in this wasteland. And I say that with no vanity and take no real pleasure in it. It is sad but true.
Beyond that, I can have more productive as well as illuminating discussion on the nearest supermarket parking lot.
To recap: He is your opposite number. He is only here cause you are.
You made this. You try to have your cake and eat it too, as the saying goes.
Now eat your cake.
>>2408664It is the case that there are different rules for different people. You have to be a really, really ignorant westerner to not fucking know this simple fact. So no, China cannot unilaterally sanction whatever it pleases. Look up unilateral coercive measure, they are illegal (again, except for US and friends, just in case you need a reminder of the first sentence of this paragraph).
>>2408754wrong. China's Communist commodity stimulus to Palestine helps Palestinians fight the zionist genocide
https://english.news.cn/20250623/ab65491280024115911b1ae4cc7d5c73/c.html Without this help things would actually be worse for palestinians
Case in point right there, innit
>>2408759I am not the same species as you, that much is true. Outside of trivial biology.
>>2408746I have zero respect for people who claim China blockading Israel would do anything. Israel trades with literally the entire world. These morons don't even understand that socialist countries like VIETNAM, LAOS, and CUBA also trade with Israel. So is China supposed to fucking commit economic suicide by walling itself off from the entire world including other socialist countries to somehow do more damage to Israel than it would inflict on itself? Ask North Korea how effective their "economic blockade" of all countries that trade with Israel is. Seems not be working too well.
>blah blah blah he is your mirror and foilShut the fuck up it's glownonymous spamming his shitposts he's been samefagging and arguing against himself on these topics for years now every time he gets debunked he just switches sides and pretends to be dengist/antidengist because he has no stake in the issue. I just drop in occasionally to truthnuke him to stop him from getting an ego.
>>2409001First, fair enough. If he is playing both sides (I am unaware of anything in this case but I try not to pay it any attention) all the more reason to sanction him (throw out). Second, I would simply say curtail the worst excesses of ultras etc as well (this is not communism, that is not, your mom is not communism, on and on).
I personally take as much heed of him as I do of the other noise-makers, which are plenty. Talk loud, say nothing. I was just putting it in perspective.
>>2409750That demand was levied against the zionist arab league(that now calls on Hamas to disband), not china.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/07/30/middleeast/arab-league-hamas-gaza-israel-intlYou are profoundly stupid. China's Communist commodity aid will not stop. Show me where Hamas says China must stop trading with Palestine. You cannot. Show me where Houthis sink Chinese ships that bring necessities to Palestine. You cannot. Your position is is shitty and your demand to halt Chinese commodities means to starve palestinians. You are a zionist. Explain how Palestinians being cut off from necessities from China helps them when Chinese commodities alleviate poverty stricken Palestinians in occupied Palestine.
>>2407501>The means of production are clearly available in more than sufficient quantity in China.it's not about whether China by itself has means of production in sufficient quantity, but about whether the world does. China is still working on abolishing the distinction between town and country for example. But it's also about China as an island of socialism in a sea of capitalism.
Read Marx:
Marx in Wage Labor and Capital Ch 6:
>An appreciable rise in wages presupposes a rapid growth of productive capital. Rapid growth of productive capital calls forth just as rapid a growth of wealth, of luxury, of social needs and social pleasures. Therefore, although the pleasures of the worker have increased, the social gratification which they afford has fallen in comparison with the increased pleasures of the capitalist, which are inaccessible to the worker, in comparison with the stage of development of society in general. Our wants and pleasures have their origin in society; we therefore measure them in relation to society; we do not measure them in relation to the objects which serve for their gratification.So today a place like Niger is more absolutely more developed than England was in the 1850s, but it is still relatively less developed than England today. The proletarian revolution will gradually transform this state of affairs, not instantly change it.
>>2409889Sweden provided tungsten for German tank rounds, coal & iron for Krupp and allowed its railways to be used by the Wehrmacht, so the genocide on Leningrad was possible.
China sends cheap plastic toys and clothing to Israel, while smuggling Norinco AKs, AT RPG rounds, radios, body armor and rocket pipes to Hamas.
Not the same tbh.
>>2409893>China sends cheap plastic toys and clothing to Israel<Since the 2010s, China and Israel enhanced bilateral economic ties with China connecting both Chinese and Israeli businessmen and investors to invest in each other's economies respectively. Chinese economic cooperation with Israel has seen substantial Chinese investment of more than US$15 billion in the Israeli economy, spawning seed capital in Israeli startup companies, as well as the acquisition of Israeli companies by major Chinese corporations that incorporate Israel's know how to help invigorate the development of the modern Chinese economy more efficiently. China ranked second in 2015 after the United States on collaboration with Israeli high-tech firms that are backed by Israel's Office of the Chief Scientist.[58] Major Chinese firms such as Fosun, ChemChina, Brightfood, Horizons Ventures and China Everbright have invested significant amounts of financial capital and resources across numerous Israeli industries.[59]<Investment from China in Israeli technology reached an aggregate of $15 billion from 2011 to 2017 with the surplus of Chinese investment capital finding its way through Israel's high technology sector, including agriculture, pharmaceutical, medical devices, artificial intelligence and autonomous driving.[60]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Israel_relations>while smuggling Norinco AKs, AT RPG rounds, radios, body armor and rocket pipes to Hama<In March 2025, the British Parliament’s report on the events of October 7 was published, examining the weaponry used during the attacks on that day. The report indicates that some of the weapons used were Chinese-made, including AK-47 rifles, multi-purpose machine guns, and anti-tank weapons designed for operation by small teams. However, the report notes that these weapons had come from war-torn countries such as Libya and Iraq, which had previously purchased Chinese weapons, and there is no indication of direct supply chains from China to the Gaza Strip.https://www.inss.org.il/social_media/how-did-chinese-weapons-reach-hamas/ >>2409889Swedish neutrality allowed the Danish jews to be saved in near totality
>>2409902>Since the 2010s, China and Israel enhanced bilateral economic ties with China connecting both Chinese and Israeli businessmen and investors to invest in each other's economies respectively. This is the same logic that allows liberals to pretend that Nazi Germany and the USSR were ACTUALLY on the same side all along and that if ONLY the USSR had just cut the Germans off MAYBE Poland and France could've been saved.
>>2409917>Swedish neutrality allowed the Danish jews to be saved in near totalitySo you think it's good that Sweden continued to trade with the Nazis throughout the war?
>This is the same logic that allows liberals to pretend that Nazi Germany and the USSR were ACTUALLY on the same side all alongI'm not saying that China and Israel are on the same side, but it's an objective fact that Chinese trade is good for the Israeli economy and there is no good reason why it should continue. Thus far nobody has been able to give one, just a lot of downplaying and absurd statements like how trading with Israel is somehow good for Gaza. Certainly the Palestinians know this is not the case which is why they constantly car for embargoes on Israel.
>>2409921Oh fuck off. Im not denouncing China as a whole. They do far more good than harm in the world, but this is something they can and should be criticized for.
>>2409956They are already screaming bloody murder, but they can't sanction China like they did Russia as their whole trade depends on China, coming back to China trading with Israel, which is of noones suprise because China is the world's largest exporter. Go somewhere in Africa or South America and you will see Chinese EVs and phones.
About those rifles, they are completely new, compare that to the Hamas loadout in the early 2010s which was truly old hand-me-downs from Syria or Libya. Think about all the ammo Hamas used up since Oct. 7, we are talking about tens of millions of rounds of 7.62x39mm, only China & Russia mass produce that ancient cartridge in 2025, besides some smaller civilian suppliers in Switzerland or the US for yurope or burger AK fans.
>>2409970>They are already screaming bloody murderWhere? Which Western governments have accused China of deliberately arming Hamas? Has Israel accused them of this?
>About those rifles, they are completely newAgain, this doesn't mean China is deliberately arming them. Iran or private arms dealers can easily buy Chinese weapons and smuggle them to Gaza. Iraq and Libya are both unstable war zones crawling with non-state militias who I'm sure have plenty of Chinese weapons themselves.
>only China & Russia mass produce that ancient cartridge in 2025I seriously doubt that considering its probably the most popular rifle cartridge in the world and dozens of countries still use it. Plus there are huge amounts of it sitting in storage. Even if that's true however, it still doesn't mean that China is deliberately arming Hamas, because again, intermediaries are a thing.
>>2409978I don't doubt that they also have imported rockets, but they've published videos of them making them themselves.
>>2409922>Oh fuck off. Im not denouncing China as a whole. They do far more good than harm in the world, butvidrel
>this is something they can and should be criticized for.what is your nationality again?
>>2410097Are the nuclear reactors and vehicles sent to Israel part of the Chinese Communist commodity aid to Palestine?
>>2409917>This is the same logic that allows liberals to pretend that Nazi Germany and the USSR were ACTUALLY on the same side all along and that if ONLY the USSR had just cut the Germans off MAYBE Poland and France could've been saved.I'm not going to argue that France and Poland could have been saved, but the Soviet Union definitely helped the Germany army by supplying it with grain, oil and various metals, and is probably one of the bigger stains on the legacy of the USSR.
>>2410216Disprove it.
Protip:You can't
I am not saying (NB) that it is this way or the other way.
I am saying speculating is unproductive and I suspect some not too clean motives (won't somebody think of the palestinian children, China throwing itself against the hegemon, no holds barred would be a whole different level of escalation, but that is of course a whole different can of worms) with most of these statements.
>>2410255>What has iran officially requested china do, that china isn't doing?iran for some reason doesn't like asking for help
>What has palestine officially requested china do, that china isn't doing?nothing really, China does what it can. though Id say the dprk has more maneuverability and freedom to roll up their sleeves and get to work, most of the tunnels in gaza were built with their expertise
>>2410355>still not answering the questionThe question is an attempt to distract from the point, and make the absurd implication that I, an individual in a Western country, ought to somehow be accomplishing more for Palestine than superpower which claims to be socialist and anti-imperialist.
>Ok but what country are you criticizing China fromCanada
>what efforts have you made to boycott Israel in your own countryI've been involved with numerous demonstrations and helped set up and run an encampment that successfully got the local uni to divest from Israel.
>is your country the country supplying more weapons to Israel than all other countries combined?No.
>>2411870No one's coming to save you. This is it.
Me neither, I am sitting here in europe, just watching on in dismay (why couldn't I have been born chinese).
However, here maybe your best hope actually lies with JDPON Don (formerly Don the Con). Now that the US bourgeois class has started formally sanctioning their allies (remember, they have no real allies, only interests), we will see cracks in the whole godforsaken system. This whole development is objectively funny and good. Just sucks for us, personally. But I feel like, in my better moments, that is a small price to pay.
>>2411870Form separatist movements and do your best to increase anti-American sentiments and pro-Canada sympathies. Facilitate immigration of skilled workers and fellow travelers to Canada. Map local infrastructure and stockpile caches of weapons and supplies along the border.
Canada must be destroyed along with every bourgeois nation (including China). However this tickles a particular schizophrenic obsession of mine.
Basically there is an area roughly north of the 41st parallel that could be balkanized and occupied by Canada, which precludes most of the population of the us and most important political infrastructure and military installations, but nonetheless encompasses most of the fresh water reserves of America including the great lakes. This includes Minnesota, Wisconsin, Maine, Oregon, Washington state, and northern California. All of which have a high degree of sympathy among the population for separating from the US and joining a union with Canada. As America drifts into rightwing politics these sympathies are likely to increase, as we have seen occur after the two elections of Donald Trump. There are also several exclaves located within this zone that have had successful referendums and polls to join Canada, which could provide a legal basis for starting this process.
This realignment also opens up the opportunity to break off and take Alaska. Alaska is dependent on access from Washington state through Canadian territories, by land and sea. It is also has a powerful separatist movement itself which currently is dominated by a more rightwing petit-bourgeois ideological orientation. Additionally it is alleged that the Russian Federation has supported separatist politics in Alaska.
>>2412146>>2412185>as a third worlderWhere the fuck are you from? India?
lmao
Unique IPs: 229