Political implications of more Americans converting to Catholicism?
The American right was heavily associated with Evangelical idpol for the past 50 years. They became the cultural backbone of the GOP from the 80s to the late 2000s. Now it appears like a huge number of former Evangelicals are converting to Catholicism. I even know some ex-Mormons who are Catholic now.
At the same time, it seems like leftists are embracing Catholicism too. Remember when everyone was convinced Pope Francis was a secret socialist? Jacobin mag goes out of their way with appealing to Catholics as well (every other article of theirs is something along the lines of: “Move over pink-haired bipolar feminist queers, here’s why the Catholic Church are the REAL socialists!”). People like Dorothy Day are propped up even though her actual contributions to the American left were minimal and symbolic at best (the Catholic Worker also referred to the priests killed by /ourguys/ in Catalonia as “martyrs” which is disgusting). Not to mention, the Jacobin crowd seems very big on appealing to right-wing Catholic sentiments like complaining about birthrates being too low and proposing Bernie-style policies like universal healthcare to “fix” it, as if low birthrates are a problem to begin with.
But anyway, if Catholicism becomes a major cultural force in America in the next few years how do you see it affecting the political landscape?
>Political implications of more Americans converting to Catholicism?
Ehhhh I see it as part of the broader trend of young people simultaneously looking for community, but developing a cultural cynicism towards their roots. I wrote an article ages ago that there's been kind of an abandonment of "Americanism" in favor of more foreign, often European ideas. Y'know, before (left-wing) Americans could positively refer to Marx as "like Thomas Jefferson" or the North Koreans as like the Founding Fathers; but the Left out here has fallen out of love with those historical roots whereas the Right is more obsessed with images of authoritarian empires over the "noble yeoman farmer".
I've been to some of the big Protestant churches out here; even the Prots I know say one of them is basically run by the family from The Righteous Gemstones. I've attended one of their sermons, and it felt like a guy in Khakis explaining to dudes who run pool supply stores how to increase morale while vaguely gesturing at the Bible.
Catholicism, say what you will, is steeped in ritual and aesthetics. And at a time when Capitalist modernity seems depressingly inescapable, it points to forms that are at least unlike what we have now; ritual, sacrament, so on.
I've got to start getting ready for work, but I can see a few things kind of playing a role in it:
>The growing need for community.
Evangelicalism was the perfect religion for America at its time just because of its emphasis on individualism. It's one's "personal relationship with Jesus", which essentially means cynical Christians could promote their own mind to the status of God. They'd imagine they're talking with angels, that whatever they do is right, God-blessed, the works. I've seen videos of a woman who nearly killed her entire family in her car (something about lighting a match while fueling up their gas tank) and rather than saying "Oh fuck, I'm sorry" she just shrugs and says "If we died, it's cause God wanted us to die there." Or, in one bizarre case, a woman wanted to know if she should divorce her husband and marry a younger man, then claimed God told her it was okay 'cause she opened the bible and found a line that said something like "Throw the old man out".
But people are more lonely than ever. They want community. And they want a deeper community than just having a guy in Khakis tell you to start a small business. Hence Catholicism, ancient as it is, provides at least a semblance of community and holiness that rises above "whatever I think is what God wants".
>The decline of Capitalist orthodoxy
I think partially prompting the change is the fact even those on the Right are not the giddy libertarians they once were. They don't give a fuck for some false-idea of liberal "freedom", in fact many of them want order and structure and authority. They don't even have the same enamored view of big business 'cause they see BMW adopt rainbow capitalism for pride month.
Catholicism has its own critiques of Capitalism, and it allows right wingers to "RETVRN" to an older tradition than Protestantism. Like, Catholic economic policy is about promoting a wider social good; Catholicism was one of the earliest adopters of the concept of "social justice" (albeit as an alternative to Socialism) and so that kind of speaks to some right wingers who, say, despise the LGBT community but have no problem with the concept of universal healthcare. Left-wingers meanwhile can appreciate a religion that at least attempts to critique Capitalism to a degree beyond "Well you should just be more charitable."
In essence, the largest bloc of people in the U.S. are folks who want the state to step in and regulate Capitalism, but are divided over social policy. The Catholic church can appear more moderate than the screaming baptists shouting "GOD HATES YOU! FUCKING DIE ALREADY!" while still approximating a need for society to step in to ensure just outcomes.
>>2409326Most catholic converts, specially in the USA are just protestants and fascists who like cathedrals and latin chants. They hate the Pope, have no communal spirit, don't love thy neighbor and despise most catholic traditions, specially if they come from non-white countries.
They should honestly just become WH40K fans if they just like the evil empire aesthetics and nothing else.
>>2409591And the “cafeteria Catholics” are the ones voting Democrat. The ones who are hardcore about their faith are voting Republican.
A true Catholic would never vote for a politician who supports abortion access, for instance.
>>2409567>>2409567That is true, American culture is imbued with the Protestant ethos so you get deracinated converts like pic related:
>>2409570, Europeans and Latin Americans and other Catholic nationalities have a greater sense than any American convert, just like a white American claiming to be German would be laughed at by actual euros
>>2409636>The general adoption of evangelical media culture, even megachurch aesthetics and modern sermon practices, just to name a few examples that are explicitly distinct from Catholic communities outside of the US and a direct influence from evangelicalism.What “media” are you talking about? EWTN, which is liberal Catholic at most? What “mega churches”? You mean cathedrals, which are what Catholic Churches have looked like for centuries? What “modern sermon practices” are you referring to, specifically?
Your post is nothing but hot air and broad assumptions without any real concrete examples. It seems to me like you’re just trying to pull a “NOT REAL CATHOLICISM” and “IT’s THE PROTESTANTS’ FAULT” without truly backing up your claim.
>>2409698Holy fuck, this retard actually is an unironic Irish exceptionalist, lmao.
>>2409700>Are you this retarded that you think American Catholics would all be Berniecrats if it wasn’t for Evangelical influence?Absolutely. In fact we have plenty evidence for this. German Catholics for example are very aligned in their support for the German welfare state and don't have assimilated elements of American prosperity gospel as much as their Evangelical Catholic counterparts in the US(neither have actual Irish Catholics btw).
If you were an actual materialist you would understand that the material conditions in a given country have a stronger bearing on religious/reliopoltical attitudes, even across different doctrines and faiths than some abstract idea of a doctrine.
>>2409709The Catholic vote in the US is split almost 50/50 because of abortion and queer issues.
It’s funny, because when American Catholics were overwhelmingly Democrat the Dems were tougher on communism than the GOP.
>>2409731>Because the Catholic Church in Germany is exceptionally liberal.Exactly, and the contemporary Catholics in the US are exceptionally evangelicalized, almost beyond recognition for exactly the same underlying reason.
Thanks for agreeing. It took a while but you got it in the end. Congratulations.
>>2409742>and the contemporary Catholics in the US are exceptionally evangelicalized, you have yet to prove that:1. The right-wing attitudes of American Catholics are entirely or mostly due to Evangelical influence
And:
2. That the conservativeness of American Catholicism is unique to American Catholics and not found elsewhere.
How do you explain the Church’s extremist anti-communism during the 19th and most of the 20th century?
>>2409742The German Church is only one example.
How is the right-wing nature of Catholics in America specific to America? You don’t see Catholics in the Philippines supporting communism, do you?
>>2409753>The German Church is only one example.Ok, what about when the French and Italian social medias exploded in laughter and mockery at this obviously by gaudi Evangelical performatism inspired appearance by Marco Rubio on a prominent network, one of America's most notorious 'catholics'?
Can you explain to me how German Catholicism can be uniquely liberal but American Catholicism can't be uniquely evangelical, both as a function of the material conditions in both societies? You have yet to come up with an explanation for that.
>>2409591lol sounds like my boomer parents as well. They like all of the pomp and circumstance. My dad, who was raised catholic and hates the pope regardless of which pope it is, understands that it's all bullshit and the stories are heavily embellished and/or pure fiction, but he finds it nostalgic seeing as he was raised going to a catholic church. I remember once he, for some reason, tried to argue that the church isn't against birth control. My mom goes simply because it makes her feel good and she's not much for critical thinking. Then there are my siblings, such as my sister (on birth control btw) who loves all of the decorations and lore about saints and such. Sends her kids to catholic school because it's one of the only private schools around here. Pretty sure they (the adults, of course) all vote republican.
I'm just going to stop typing here, but yeah, my experience matches yours.
>>2409726>a doctrine like it was centuries ago when today its literally just larp and vibesCatholics: "slavery is evil…no wait its good,…wait no, WAIT,"
>>2409758>They don’t do that because they’re evilif you soyface at GK Chesterton your soul has been lost
>>2409786And what exactly are the main issues Catholics and Evangelicals join forces on? Oh I don't know, abortion bans, maybe? Birth control bans? Attacks on LGBTQ rights? Attacks on feminism? These aren't things that span across most Christian doctrines regardless of sect?
>or an agenda that is in open defiance to the papacy like those concerning migration.There are plenty of European Catholics who oppose migration too, you know? It's not an "American Evangelical" thing at all.
>>2409793His entire argument is that Catholicism in America is only right-wing because it's been infiltrated or influenced by Evangelical Protestantism, which isn't true. Catholicism in the US was always right-wing, anti-feminist, and very very very anti-Marxist.
>>2409795>why is the anti-human element of catholicism in the US significantly higher compared to catholics in almost every other place on earth?I don't believe it is. Ex-Archbishop Vigano who was extremely right-wing and he's Italian. Cardinal Sara (also very right-wing) is from Guinea. It's not hard to find Catholic priests and bishops in other countries who hate migrants, believe women should shut up and obey men, praise fascism, you get the idea.
>>2409929>Every single "leftyCath" I know buys into the pacifism and "consistent life ethic" thing whereby they're anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-gun, and anti-warAnd those same Dorothy Day-style "Lefty Caths" were the ones behind the original anti-abortion movement. Evangelicals didn't become anti-abortion until the early 80s with Reagan and the Moral Majority. Meanwhile, Catholics were always anti-choice and made the anti-choice movement a thing to begin with.
>>2409929Quakerism is just New Age Buddhism for Christians. The same literal idealist retardation just with Jesus.
Paradoxically, Catholicism is more materialist.
>>2410027>Because they're Evolian traditionalist chuds.American Catholics read Evola? Please.
>They take Catholic aesthetics overtop of a Calvinist settler-colonialism. What? Catholicism is the most settler-colonial of every world religion. Why does that element only (allegedly) exist in the US and not in LatAm where white Latinos still very much hold a racist/colonial worldview?
>>2410034There are plenty of born-Catholics who are also right-wing.
>>2409326>Now it appears like a huge number of former Evangelicals are converting to Catholicism. I even know some ex-Mormons who are Catholic now.Eeeeesh, I don't know if most of these people are ex-Evangelicals. Evangelical Christianity largely stresses an individualistic "personal relationship with God" over doctrine, dogma, or tradition. It's a very anti-intellectual religion - "the Holy Spirit speaks to me" is all they care about. Catholicism, on the other day, has a very intellectual tradition. A lot of Catholic school kids learn philosophy as a part of the curriculum. Catholicism is heavily rooted in all the things Evangelicals don't like.
So in essence, I would say that even if we assume what you're arguing is true, the real reason for the turn to Catholicism has more to do with Protestants wanting to be more intellectual about their faith.
>>2411384They look at Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement and think: "SEE! Catholicism IS leftism!"
That, and they really want to believe Pope Francis and the current pope are/were crypto-socialists. Also, they think Liberation Theology is the "true" Church teaching even though the Vatican has condemned it several times.
>>2409567>>2409610>>2409615Evangelicals don't spend hours a day indulging in the writings of Augustine or Aquinas, or the writings of the Church fathers.
What drives someone to become Catholic is very different than what drives someone to become a born-again Evangelical. Most born-again Evangelicals are people who had a ton of trauma in their lives and get sucked into Evangelical churches on the basis of "feel-goodism". People convert to Catholicism because they like the intellectual and historical aspect to it, the fact the Catholic Church has an actual foundation in history rather than being the product of some white guy's "revelation" he had while walking through rural America 200 years ago. Most American Protestant denominations are products of the Second Great Awakening meaning they're Americans who LARP as the original church all while claiming the actual original church (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) hasn't been true to Christianity since the 6th century.
>>2411969retarded post
most protestant denominations stretch back centuries before Amerikkka was even founded
>>2411973So they're 450 years old instead of 200 years old, got it.
You don't find it a bit strange how nearly all Protestant denominations began in Europe or America? Where are all the Palestinian, Lebanese, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Iraqi/Chaldean, and Armenian Protestants?
>>2411996Is that a reason to believe Protestantism is legitimate?
>>2411999What makes you think this?
>>2409326all this catholicism obsession with secular americans comes from protestants being completely fucking annoying, and these secular humanist bleeding heart liberal types feel uncomfortable harboring a hatred for a whole religion so they latch onto catholics as "the good christians" for not being frothing at the mouth fox news watchers for the most part, in order to soothe their own conscience
and online rightoids want to become catholic because they've looked at too many ai gen crusader images that looked cool
>>2409379he said GOP not trump you illiterate
>reddit reddit redditthis is just epic chanlord vice signalling people use to shut down conversation
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