Imageboards have of course been filled with nazis for a fuck ton of time from even the start, but most people agree it mainly started when moot added /news/ then all the chudcels flooded the rest of the site, then created /pol/ and the rest is history.
With that being said, how do we realistically combat the mass grooming of people into nazism through imageboards? The sharty is becoming the new 8chan but with way more cultural influence on the wider internet and the rest of the population is filled with young children, we have already seen solomon (a mass shooter that was a black man yet he was also a white supremacist with sharty connections) commit a mass shooting. With that being said clearly a lot of these young men are isolated and angry, doxxing random literal WHOS because they are trans, or even doing raids that help the federal government because the site is influenced by glowies. They even raided our very booru 2 days ago, and ILLEGAL CONTENT was posted (this was done by foodist nazis not soyteens but still scary that it’s that prevalent with their raids).
And with the thought on raids we can see some of these young people are being groomed into actual pedophile nazi communities but the sharty staff and wiki are so up their asses that they can’t see they have ideological similarities with the nazi foodists and that’s why they surround them.
They have crushed /leftysoy/ and banned many leftists on their wiki including me, I think this is gonna evolve into something much worst if we don’t do anything.
>>2412679We simply need to promote real communism more widely.
It's really just that alienated young workers find literal Nazis more appealing than the repugnant liberals. Unfortunately, many so-called "communists" cover for social fascists and liberals way too much. Liberals are disgusting and depraved slavers which should be given no sympathy whatsoever.
>>2412703I do want to add that other people go way too far in an "anti-idpol" line. The solution is an honest investigation of and appeal to the real material issues doubly-oppressed workers face which largely are a consequence of the stagnation and deindustrialization due to state-monopoly capital. Promise the Indigenous nations and the Black nation and the rural colonies self-determination but more than that promise jobs and industrialization of colonized communities. Because those are issues that the average worker can have empathy with. Likewise with queer issues. Promise queer youth kicked out of their homes that you will build commieblocks and rental units for everyone. And so on and so forth.
Do investigate and hear out identity issues but promise material solutions to the root problems.
>>2412703while this is true i feel like it's died down a lot since 2020 and you're becoming a broken record on this. it's also harder to do this when the right is offering not just an identity but the promise of obscene enjoyment in the form of extreme violence dished out against the lower classes and outgroups. what can the left offer there? Maoist guerilla groups going innawoods or Luigi-style assassinations? the issue is that the leftist program will never appeal as much as to violence-brained young men as much as the right.
the good thing is that violence itself as the end devolves into tactical obsession of killing and pales in comparison to a strategic, protracted conflict. the fact is that the left has to learn that taking more losses doesn't mean you have to lose. it just means attaining our goals will require truly heartbreaking self-sacrifice on a level the right never has to comprehend.
>>2412679What the
fuck is /leftysoy/?
rightoids are so much more in lock step that it's crazy. A random white woman can say a slur and get half a million dollars and you know why they do this? because they know that it shows their strength, their numbers, their financial capabilities.
The left is the exact opposite. The only people who have resources do not share them. Congratulations, you've made Contrapoints and every other breadtube era creator a multi-millionaire, what do you have to show for it? Have any of those people ever D O N E anything for the greater movement? And how many people could be uplifted by the resources we spend on these creators?
I've had people look into the money some of these people are making, and it's actually ridiculous, some of these 'communists' are making 100k a month off working class donations while pedaling the same line: Nothing can be done, the material conditions are not right, there is no revolutionary potential in the US, the best we can do is slow educate the working class (via our youtube videos!), fight the 'alt-right pipeline' and then maybe, just maybe, vote for AOC and Bernie because WE HAVE TO START SLOW.
As if these people aren't also tools of propaganda promoted by the ruling class in order to make you feel disaffected, alienated and hopeless. 85% of young men 18-34 supported Zohran in the election. 85%! Yet the line continues to be "we have to slowly move the chuds to the left!"
Wake up and realize that the masses are already radicalized and they don't need a youtube video to know that the rent is going up. Wake up and think about the amount of money going to entertainers who have no intention of doing more than that, entertaining. They don't see their platforms as infastructure, they make twice what your average prole makes in a year in a month, and they continue to tell us that there's nothing we can do, as if they clout makes them the representatives of the struggle.
None of them will start a revolutionary party, and most of them are perfectly content being cultural gatekeepers for the actual working class seeking to change their material conditions.
>>2412718I might work on a script for “why young men went right” (working title) but I think the problem is in some small part: there’s no dialogue. Yknow when I was in college there was a lot of “white people need to talk about race/think about race more” but the reality is people don’t want to have a conversation about race, they want to lecture people on it. A conversation requires mutual understanding, but each side views itself as indisputably in the right and sees the “conversation” as lecturing someone until they concede. It’s not just different views, it’s
>”You’re objectively wrong, have no right to feel or think things a certain way, and your views are defacto invalid.”Let me give an example, I’ve seen libs talk a lot about young men going right, and while male liberals see it as something to try to overcome, I’ve seen plenty of female libs say “Well tell them to work on themselves! Stop being so entitled! It’s not our job to take care of you!” And in one particular case, there was some YouTube discussion about it, and one of the women interviewed basically defaulted to the “well we need to teach them it’s not okay to act like that!” The comments were roasting her. Lots of
>”Thanks for showing exactly why young men hate the left”Type stuff.
A lot of the discussion on this just nakedly is framed as “Ugh, we can’t stand these guys but we can’t let the right have them. So I guess I’ll try, what a chore.”
Think about it in these terms: if your coworkers invite you to a party and you later learn they only invited you cause “they HAVE to” and they just kind of treat you as a burden, would you even want to go? Maybe on the basis of getting free food or drinks, to stretch the metaphor that would be what a political party can “give” you, but there’s always some IdPol type around the corner to inform you “actually you deserve nothing and we’re gonna have to take a lot from you to give to the people you hurt by virtue of being born wrong.”
I agree the anti idpol types just went retarded in the other direction. But I think any “how do we deradicalize these keeeeeeds?” Conversation on the Left that doesn’t come to terms with actually trying to understand why these young men feel so aggravated by the Left is bound to fail. And conversations where you try to rationally explain their reasons and then add on “well this is why you’re wrong and I’m right” is only gonna anger people more.
>>2412802My side is indisputable in the right, and I am not going to pretend otherwise.
Also, "the Left" doing the aggravating in the US are shitlibs, and have nothing to do with me.
>>2412736Sorry, taking a minute to reply. In regards to the obscene enjoyment, I think that’s missing the forest for the trees. The guttural hatred and lust for violence is a consequence of first giving people some great other they can despise. Yeah it’s sadism, I assume lots of people have some sadistic tendencies they can suppress to various degrees (look at our own Felix!) but it’s the hatred that’s planted first. It’s not just faceless people they see going into the torture camps, it’s archetypes. The Nazis had it with their “insidious Jew” that they depicted in ghastly images. The rightoid sees it in some neon haired feminist who’s screeching at you from the safety of civilized society. It’s the ultimate barbarism of the right winger, in that they see civilization and law as an impediment to “correcting” the attitudes of “weaker” people by beating them. “If it weren’t for the law I’d fucking kill this loudmouth bitch.”
Now I see the solution as getting that targeted hatred to cool. Leading people back to the light as it were. And it may be the Catholic in me but I think redemption truly is possible.
>They even raided our very booru 2 days ago
Not sure why you're being so precious about that. Raids happen, and /leftypol/ has been infamous for over a decade, so I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. It was a failraid.
The main difference I noticed is not that there might have been illegal content (I honestly don't know if it was, I don't bother looking at raid posts, and I've deleted worst stuff posted by commercial spammers) but that there were plenty of explicitly 764 posts. Most people here don't know (or care) what a foodist is but I'm guessing they're who you're talking about, and like you said they're clearly trying to recruit through soyjak culture.
Fortunately, the IBs I use tend to get zero, or in one case, one O9A-type user, and they just get laughed out of the room whenever they post. In broader society, their shock imagery is powerful - once you get into Satanic Nazism territory, the 'Nazism' aspect is more a shallow statement of transgressive sadism than actual ideology. That's why you see these contradictory cases of black Americans espousing this junk (Soloman, Angel Almeida, etc) or Atomwaffen making posts praising the DPRK. But on older imageboards, we're used to dumb edgelords and see them for the pathetic thirsty kids that they are.
You seem young, OP, so you'd do well to learn basic net advice like "don't feed the trolls". They want people to call them 'scary' and mention their raids, that reinforces their community. I'm not saying don't discuss them, but learn to laugh at them.
>>2412812>And it may be the Catholic in me but I think redemption truly is possible.Former fash are a real phenomenon. Not even that rare of one. Vidrel has a few recounts. There are also many people on /leftypol/ and even Hexbear who are openly former rightoids. So I don't think this idea is misplaced. A problem is that it's not easy to deradicalize someone
at all.
On the other hand, the kind mentioned in this thread ('Satanic Nazism') are generally mentally-ill misanthropes. The kind of people who would love to star in
120 Days of Sodom. The kind who even Nazi groups try to ban. And as someone else said, it's probably wrong to even call them Nazis, they only associate with them because Western propaganda (understandably) treats them as evil atrocious mass murderers. Long story short, I think those people are worth little more than a bullet once if they keep that attitude into adulthood.
>>2412844Don’t worry I’ll be back in the other threads to annoy you soon.
>>2412899When it comes to deradicalizing I agree that the misanthropic types are a lost cause, but I’m not even talking Nazis. Like I think there’s just a broad cultural current where I think the bulk of the young men who went right fell into: the guys with edgy humor, or have been “hypnotized” in the culture war into voting Right wing to punish the Left, or what have you. I think they can be reached by emphasizing economics over social issues for one, and earnestly asking if getting angry about culture war shit is making them happy.
>>2412679The problem is you are too internet poisoned.
We are not going to save young men through the internet. That kind of isolation will inevitably lead to reactionary behavior. We need radical and aggressive socialization.
>>2412899>Former fash are a real phenomenon. Not even that rare of one. Vidrel has a few recounts … A problem is that it's not easy to deradicalize someone at all.>>2412956>When it comes to deradicalizing I agree that the misanthropic types are a lost cause, but I’m not even talking Nazis … I think they can be reached by emphasizing economics over social issues for one, and earnestly asking if getting angry about culture war shit is making them happy.>>2413019>The only thing you can do with people like that is just ignore them and let them destroy their own lives until they reach the point where they are so lost and alone and miserable and their addiction is no longer giving them any solaceI haven't watched that video yet (looks interesting though) but I've listened to some accounts of ex-Nazis. Like hardcore types who were involved in the "movement." And a theme that does come up over and over again is that it made them miserable. They can't enjoy normal things because they see the world as an ocean of threats which can include anything. It's a very narrow vision of idealism surrounded by threats.
It's like… Jimmy Neutron! Only someone in this mindset would see that as something out to destroy him personally, but that's what these guys are like. They can't watch sports because black guys beat up white guys in it so that makes it Jewish propaganda to demoralize white people. Porn is Jewish (actually this is probably true) but now Jews are trying to take the porn away. Klaus Theweleit said these men were psychologically "not yet born" (sounds better in German) so they only felt real in a uniform.
Another theme is childhood abuse. Like being told they're stupid a lot. "You'll never amount to anything." They can be rather pathetic and sad, self-loathing individuals. It's unfortunate. Then they go and hang out with some older Nazis (who are not necessarily that much older, but adults) who like to work out a lot and do MMA-style fights, and it makes them feel really powerful, because other people are scared of those guys. They pick on Pride parades because they think LGBT people will be afraid of them. I don't think the antifa-style approach of being aggressive towards them is the right approach in every circumstance.
>>2412879ok bud your sounding like a 4cuck
I was just saying that through the sharty foodists are recruiting children because the majority of sharty is children.
Also they lied about what happened on their wiki Geg
https://soyjakwiki.org/Leftybooru_Raid >>2413119Oh definitely not always, my dad got the Stranger Things style of “ride around on bikes in the neighborhood until sundown”, at least according to him and his friends (most of them are still in touch). I got the “you have no friends so here’s a computer” childhood (was literally my old man’s explanation for why he was giving me a laptop).
>>2413132Speaking of Pride parades, I had a bit of a revelation recently, that I think might explain some of the rage on the right about it. I hope I explain it well but I think part of it is that these people have never been given the impression ever in their lives that they’re valuable, and then they see a whole month dedicated to telling people “you belong, you matter” and it infuriates them. And I think that kind of applies to their rage at other groups too.
You see in a lot of their memes some shit like “if someone says they’re proud to be black, they’re cheered, if I say I’m proud to be white, I’m scorned.” They got this monumentally stupid line that goes all “Well we’re just the NAACP but for white people!” And I think on some level that reflects a real resentment.
Think about how American society treats its people on a daily basis. Your kid dies in a mass shooting? “Hurr that’s just the price of freedom!” You’re down on your luck and lost your house? Bam, you’re left to die and scorned by your community. Complain about your job? “Go ahead and ask for a raise, we’ll throw you on your ass and replace you with a robot.” Lindsay Graham literally got on the news and tried to use a national disaster out here to raise more funds for Israel because “You don’t understand, people are trying to kill Jews over there!” The government doesn’t give a fuck about you, just lie down and die, you’re some fucking object that’ll be fucked by the market and disposed of when you’ve got no more use left in you.
There’s no explicit white racial solidarity. The rich whites don’t even feign concern for the working class whites, we don’t go to their country clubs after all. But then something happens, you turn on the news and you see the same fucking government that doesn’t give a fuck about you all waving flags for one segment of the population, fawning over them, “Oh you BELONG here. You matter. Your life is precious.” Cities are decorated for massive parades where gays are celebrated. A single black man dies and Nancy Pelosi wears Kente cloth and kneels in solidarity; your dad loses his job or your brother dies of a fent overdose? Who cares, we don’t have the money for taking care of these people anyways.
Of course it’s superficial appreciation, but even superficiality is seemingly more than what these people get. You see this kind of development in families with narcissistic parents, they’ve got a “golden child” they spoil and a scapegoat they despise. The scapegoat sometimes resents the golden child, but the thing is the “golden child” is experiencing their own kind of abuse. They may not be comfortable with the attention, or mourn the fact their sibling resents them, or sees the praise showered on them as tenuous and something that could easily be ripped away if they fuck up. But to the scapegoat? They’re getting love and you’re getting a fist.
Consider those white power marches that Nazis sometimes get up to. It’s really a bizarro reflection of pride parades, one that serves to reinforce their worldview: a gay person marches and they’re met with smiling families cheering them on. A “white guy” (Nazi) marches and people are throwing shit, booing, yelling obscenities at them. It both confirms to them that they’re despised and the wretched of society, and that they’re bravely asserting their own humanity against a world that hates them.
Honestly it makes me think some dose of healthy civic nationalism would be a good immune system boost to this.
>>2413199>Oh definitely not always, my dad got the Stranger Things style of “ride around on bikes in the neighborhood until sundown”, at least according to him and his friends (most of them are still in touch). I got the “you have no friends so here’s a computer” childhood (was literally my old man’s explanation for why he was giving me a laptop).My dude, I'm from LA county, and I was born in the early 90s, I don't think I'm that much older than you right, but that's how we lived. We were on the computer alot too, I think there was this story about me and my block best friend both had a broken arm on the opposite side or something, and we were playing a game together on one keyboard, I can't even remember my own childhood. But we were really out there all the time. My mom used to kick us out of the house on weekends. She let us watch like Saturday morning cartoons or something, than she was like, "It's get lost time."
>>2413199>"some dose of healthy civic nationalism would be a good immune system boost to this"It's almost like national consciousness is an important step in achieving class consciousness or something, and that "the alienation to reaction pipeline" is caused by the atomization of the individual under capitalism which ultimately strips away any form of *real* identity which isn't manufactured, resulting in political currents like white nationalism to occur.
But of course, Marx forbid the left promote any form of le hecking evil nationalism from propagating itself, we don't want to siphon any support from the Right do we? who cares that most people don't give a fuck about class? we're just gonna magically make them care! after all patriotism and other powerful political tools are hecking bad and reactionary because, they just are emkay?
>>2413730>>2413045>>2412778>both the sharty and some of these groups have ideological similarities >>2413099>>2413104I dont think its a matter of ideaological similarity. The sharty dont really have an ideology other than being vaguely rightwing, hating LGBT FURIES and liking it when they harass people.
Its the last part that makes them similar to the people they hate like foodists etc.
The actual soyteens and the offsite groups who spam CP aren't that different.
Most shartoids don't like CP, but they like sending pictures of babies getting decapitated. So in the end they aren't that different from the people they hate.
One of their admins even said he approved of DNB
>>2414020The fact is all religion is mental illness and inherently reactionary. It should be treated as such, but no one wants to attack Judaism like that out of fear of being branded an anti-semite.
Judaism isn't uniquely reactionary, it's just a religion like any other. They are all crazy because they all believe in a magical fairy in the sky. Islam and Christ-insanity are no different.
>>2414078Muslims are every bit as paranoid and dangerous actually. How quickly you've all forgotten about groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS.
American Muslims are less neurotic because they live a lot better, not because of anything inherent to Islam, which was created to justify the conquest and subjugation of Arabia by a charismatic warlord named Muhammad. All religions are inherently reactionary and their adherents are perfectly willing to kill you if pushed.
>>2413902There's 2 elements of the racialist right; the tribalist right and the individualist right.
The individualist right are essentially classical liberals (or within that area of thought) but they believe that browns and even some whites are incompatible with that not because they hate them, but because of their innate racial temperament. This wing of the racialist right is much, much smaller than the tribalist right, but they tend to be smarter and thus don't really tolerate the retarded shit that comes out of the tribalist right, which is why you might find more of them on a place like substack than on twitter, the sharty or 4/pol/. The people on frenschan were more likely to be part of the individualist right than the tribalist right.
The tribalist right, which makes up the majority of autistic edgelords, has no real coherent ideology, it's just blindly tribalistic. They don't really attempt to rationalize their prejudice and they tend to be quite aggressive because they're tribalists and autists. Since they tend to be lower autism score than the individualist right, they hang around spaces that are more fast paced, like twitter, which means that they're pretty much always flinging shit around to either enrage or amuse each other.
Since the tribalists make up the bulk of the racialist right, and they're very present on more popular social medias and imageboards, they thus have more of an influence on the aesthetics and narratives within the right as a whole since they essentially act as a horde that can influence the rest of the internet. You can see this with groypers on twitter and the sharty.
>>2413199>these people have never been given the impression ever in their lives that they’re valuableJohn Fetterman needs to chase black people away from his segregated settler neighborhood with a shotgun because he has depression :(
>>2413800>settler walks into a thread about white fascists doing mass grooming: <"I had a revelation: what if we did pro-white mass grooming because socialism is too much work"you think you're being taken out of context because you are a zero historical materialism liberal degenerate
>>2413431>or somethinglol
>the left promote any form of le hecking evil nationalism from propagating itselffirst Hitler, then us!
>who cares that most people don't give a fuck about class? meanwhile, your Zionist settler counterparts: "Jews are oppressed, I have great empathy for them and none for my slaves in my nazi ghettos"
>>2414836>pic related has probably created more communiststhe ACP is a tailist LaRouche program that defrauds the proletariat by selling fake theory, like a snake oil salesman who scrapes the bottom of the barrel to gain social capital for their media brands
>>2412679The coordinate systems that the culture war and communists operate in are separate. This can be seen on /pol/ today. A big chunk of the board became increasingly friendly to currently existing socialist states like China and North Korea, to historical socialist construction in the Soviet Union, to the struggles against imperialism that go on in Ukraine and the Middle East today. In their own retarded way, of course.
Conversely, the vast majority of the radical liberal "left" abandoned any pretenses of being socialist - of accepting Marxist-Leninist theory, current or historical practice of socialism, or just the concept of fighting against the American empire itself. Donbass freedom fighters were accepted by these people until 2022 since their owners didn't give the barking order. About half of the people who were oh so scared about the "alt-right" didn't even bother to signal support for Palestine in an open way since that would upset their benefactors. This stands in sharp contrast to many historical left-wingers in the west, such as the Black Panthers. They understood that their struggle was connected to the broader struggle, they didn't fear to attack the empire or be associated with "tankies".
No, I am not saying that this right wing is better. But being a rightist in this way clearly doesn't stand in opposition to being supportive of communist forces where they exist. And that's the only thing communists ask for from the vast majority of people. And neither is the liberal "left" particularly supportive of communist forces where they exist, regardless of their pretenses.
I don't see any point in supporting people who give money to Nazi Ukraine and go along with every CIA narrative under the sun on their quest to teach edgy teenagers how to think in the proper wholesome, Mastercard-approved way. These people will grow up, see the superiority of socialism and become communist supporters.
What we can do is build up the materialist perspective as opposition to the very culture war itself.
The process has already started, and if anything, the online right is better converts. The people who are so scared of climate change and want radical change so badly have failed to see the immense role China plays in renewable energy production and accept the superiority of actually existing socialism that expresses itself in this very tangible and very important way. A significant portion of imageboard right-wingers have no problem seeing all the progress socialism has made in China, imagining a fake monocultural China (since multicultural societies clearly can't progress) and saying "yeah, communism is based!" when it has more than 60 officially recognized ethnicities.
>>2415041One thing that could do quite well with young people is attacking all forms of prostitution from the materialist perspective. Incel stuff still circulates a lot among young people on tiktok and other social media, and one thing you see with them over and over is the frustration wth domestic prostitution and whatever you call it when the people involved are not married but the woman still acts the same way. Materialists actually solve this issue, there is practical evidence of the socialist states in the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact largely abolishing it and doing everyone a favor.
In the absence or obscurity of the materialist way that the issue can be and was resolved, there are two perspectives. Liberal progressives come in and say "oh yeah based, drain these pigs, and also we support open prostitution, slay sex worker queen! (poor, third world and eastern european women exploited in the most dirty way by the imperialists). Fascists come in and say "we'll take women's autonomy so that sex isn't a commodity anymore, the commodity is women". That's one way to get rid of domestic prostitution, though no society ever managed to take women's autonomy enough to actually do it. The same goes for all valid frustrations incoming right-wingers have. Liberalism is no solution, fascism is a false solution, socialism is the real solution, and people don't know that the real solution exists. That's the way right-wingers swell their numbers.
Why did I pick this frustration? Because it highlights the conflict with liberalism so well and because it's a topic that gets teens who don't pay their bills yet to listen.
>>2415300you are a pedophile
and secretly jewish : )
>>2414383The sharty isn't doing anything that Instagram shorts aren't doing with 100 million times more views.
From experience I followed both black nationalist and white nationalist channels.
They did a great job of keeping their wording barely enticing enough to get thousands of followers, and probably hundreds of thousands to millions of views of the target audience before YouTube took them down.
Aside from influencing the
seeds of meme culture I think neither site is due to do anything major.
Like anything else if you want to stop something you have to look at the material conditions rather than treating people as boogeymen.
>>2415541You will never be a real man
Not even kids want to have sex with you
You are a jew
Kys :)
>>2416402>It comes as a surprise to me that you're religious. Have you always been Catholic? Converted recently as part of the Gen Z trend of "trad" religion? How does this fit in the timeline with your "conversion" to socialist beliefs? Maybe I'm impinging here but I'm curious to know how you reconcile religion with a community full of godless communists.My mother is Catholic and was part of the Catholic Community out here growing up. From Kindergarten to Highschool I had a Catholic education. When my dad was going on one of his rage-filled tantrums that made the house unbearable, I'd often walk to my Church and just spend time meditating in it after hours. My adherance has waxed and waned over the years, but I haven't outright "stopped" being Catholic.
As for how to square it with godless Communism? Ehhh, to be honest I think it gets along fairly well. One of my critiques of the Left is that you'll get people who've kind of adopted Communism as their religion and so they have these outbursts of what amounts to religious fervor with a secular sheen; like all the people saying Communism will mean just poverty and deprivation as penance for Imperialism or what have you. A benefit for it is that you can kind of segregate the "moral" and "political" parts of the mind. You know you hear Norm Finklestein talk about his times as a Maoist, and he's got this anecdote where he saw some Party Member from China at an airport and he felt ashamed to approach him because of some "decadent" bourgeois luggage he had, and to me it's like "Okay, that's just religion."
So I think actually having some faith keeps things stable. I'm not gonna drink coffee and brood over the fact that "Oh this is a product of imperialism, I'm an awful person for drinking this." The things that make me a "good" or "bad" person are divorced from some kind of political consumption habits. I don't feel the need, like some, to buy some Lenin hat or Mao shirt to feel "closer to divinity" or what have you.
Apologies if you expected some lengthy theological explanation where I untangle the Gordian Knot of politics and religion. I just am what I am.
>>2416865>Or the system is so fucked it needs to import cheap labour to work at horrible conditions in essential jobs to keep things runningI've heard right wingers make this argument countless times.
>Combined with illegal immigrants from Africa that are running away from bad lifeTheir life is bad because they come from a place where the people are like them. We can have some sympathy for them as people but we have to stomp on their interests for the sake of our own.
>Capitalist fucks over his workers? >Must be the jews…Have you never heard the right wing critique capitalism?
>>2417089>I've heard right wingers make this argument countless timesEven if they do, they go ahead and make up a shizo theory to explain it rather than looking at the capital interest behind it.
>Their life is bad because they come from a place where the people are like them. It's a complex and long subject that has to do both with history, race and individual actions of people. To skip all that, yeah it's absolutely normal to look out for your countrymen frist and foremost. The illegal migrants should be shot on borders and the ships sunk. It would also be good to change/automate/innovate essential work and the economical system so that the whole of EU (don't know much about work in US) isn't completely reliant on legal migrants. It's a hard task but it can be achieved (guess how).
>Have you never heard the right wing critique capitalism?Never. Even if they critique capitalism they wrap it up in something else and point at it like that. Be it jews (yeah there are a lot of jewish porkies but not all porkies are jewish), couple rich illuminati reptilian guys, communists that took over (lmao), government, migrants, whatever else. Anything, anywhere but the rich and the capitalist system.
>>2417310oops, misread that as "the right wing critique
of capitalism"
>>2417314Boards create all the memes and mainstream culture.
Look back in time. Every other popular meme now is from r9k. Anime is mainstream. Literal nazi propaganda. Yeah those places are for terminally online, but the loudest people who shape the internet are the terminally online.
People are displeased. They are displeased with how things are in society. They want someone to blame. It's a fight for their attention to determine the next enemy. Sadly I think we'll see more wars and fascism before leaning heavily left in the rubbles of all that.
>>2416872Thanks for the reply. I didn't mean to imply that
I think religion is impossible to reconcile with communism. I've been thinking about the role of religion in society a lot lately, ever since my brother started getting really into his Christian faith, while at the same time retaining his left SocDem politics. As in he is still opposed to communism in high principle, but if I lay out my idea of a program to transition to communism (radically democratize the state, nationalize the monopolies while allowing small businesses to operate with incentives towards becoming co-operatives, etc.) he agrees with it. In fact I think his study of Jesus's teachings as described in the New Testament has even pushed him to the left. It's also pushed him to the right on "sexual politics" however - he's anti-abortion now, and while he's not anti-gay, I get the impression that he interprets the holy texts to mean that non-reproductive sex is sin but congenitally infertile people get a pass.
What I'm trying to say here is that I think religion, or at least Christianity, is compatible with socialism in practice. I'm an atheist, but when it comes to left-wing Christians I think I'd feel downright uncomfortable trying to persuade them to give up on religion.
Your point about people taking up communism as some kind of penance for their sins of benefiting from imperialism / racism / being a PMC Starbucks barista instead of shoveling coal etc. etc. is well said. I had an amusing discussion with one of those kinds of people - he was ashamed of owning a Macbook before his communist "conversion" but recoiled at the thought of paying $300 a year in party dues. I was paying more than that not only in dollars but also as a percentage of my income. I guess you can compare my example to Christians who obsess over their sins of watching porn etc. but refuse to get their wallets out to help the poor.
>>2412734One thing I think that awareness needs to be raised about is how censored some of these image boards really are.
They pretend they support free speech. But find a way to blow a right-wing narrative right out the water and see how quickly your post gets pulled and how hard the ban hammer comes down on you.
And your comment is memoryholed. No sign anything was said, no recourse, no evidence of moderators abusing their power - moderators who go on continuing to pretend that they support free speech and that their position is just that much more strongly rooted in the facts.
It's frustrating.
>>2412679The easiest answer to fascism is to tell them to stfu
I don't mean moderate them. It's no coincidence mods are fash. Even if they say otherwise, they're lying if only to themselves.
I mean when they say some awful shit tell them hey retard, that's wrong.
You don't have to go into gorey detail why. Just assert right is right and wrong is wrong. Fascists are cowards and need to test the waters of acceptance before committing to anything. Their entire ideology is about grooming into more painful and unacceptable conditions.
So don't let them. The end.
>>2412703I don't see how it has anything to do with identity.
What solidarity is being denied to a white suburban chud who refuses to engage in sports or hang out with classmates or co workers?
I've known plenty of people who stated they had no friends, and none of them got their kicks out of calling people racial slurs online and (openly) fantasizing about genocide.
When serial killers respond to "TfwNoGf" with raping and killing women or killing random homeless people, we argue they're mentally fucked up and at the very least belong in a mental asylum.
I don't see why chud bloodlust shouldn't be treated the same. These people are never going to be satisfied with "solidarity" or a higher minimum wage, because it's not something they fundamentally care about people. It's about, as the other anon put it (referring to Zizek's analysis) obscene enjoyment.
Their key tenets are this:
>Women should be subservient to men, and even if they have careers, never offend them or prioritize themselves over their husbands/boyfriends>Men are entitled to a woman's body, or at the very least, deserve an obedient wife to whom's body the husband is exclusively entitled to at all times>Men deserve the right to capital punishment over their families, especially their wives and daughters>No one should ever remind them of the sex or success they're not having>Sex is fundamentally about domination, and sons are avatars of their fathers (which is why consensual adult male homosexuality is unacceptable)>No member of the (perceived) out-group should ever assume authority over them>No member of the out-group is entitled to their property, which like their families, is solely theirs to use as they pleaseI.e. they don't give a fuck about immigration or "identity", what they care about is "non-Westerners" and "non-Whites" moving to Western countries as anything other than as slave castes and plantation fodder. Nor should the sexual pathologies be ignored which form the basis of their worldview.
Once you take the above into account, modern white nationalism, identitarianism and platforms like /pol/, as well as the treatment of supposedly "based" right wing women, makes a lot more sense.
>>2445152Do liberals tell others to vote for Kamala Harris out of a sense of obscene enjoyment?
You're conflating multiple classes. The bourgeoisie are Nazis because it makes them money. The demoralized proles and the slum proletariat turn to fascism because literal Nazis are more tolerable than reformist bullcrap.
This psychopathology stuff obfuscates the wide difference in motivations between a "loser" (some worker declassed or shoved into the reserve pool of labor due to idpol and a socioeconomic crisis) and between a bougie asshole.
The real way to fight fascism is to explain to the reserve pool of labor that Nazis are really just a kind of reformist libshit. Donald Trump is nothing more than pathetic Bernie socdem reformist bullshit. The Nazis were FDR type reformists and that's a bad thing.
>>2445177There's a difference between a German financier or industrialist backing Hitler because they believe it to be financially lucrative and see unions and communists as a threat, and an incel member of the Freikorps or the SA who simply wants to beat Jews to death and violently rape a woman.
I recommend 'Male Fantasies' by Klaus Theweleit for a more in depth look and how it aligns with what I wrote.
>This psychopathology stuff obfuscatesNo, it explains why the motivations of bougie NrX reactionaries are different from a white suburban chuds ranting about black people on xitter.
You cannot win these people over with reformism. They do not care about socialism no matter whether they're PMCs, proles or, lumpen. They're sexually frustrated, insecure, and want to watch other people suffer, or at least ensure they won't act as their bosses or remind them of the sex they're not having. Their concerns are libidinal and sexually pathological, not economic.
The NEETs who only care about their tendies, anime and video games aren't going to be voting for anyone anyway. Except maybe whoever they think will continue to allow them to live like that.
>>2445183I completely disagree, and you only have to look at what these people themselves post, or what you can find hanging around in their spaces, or reading works like "Male Fantasies" about the sexuality of early Nazis, to see why.
That doesn't mean btw libs can't be sex pests. But the core appeal of liberalism isn't obscene enjoyment as Zizek defines it, or the sort of rapey fantasies shared by early nazis or what I outlined as the core tenets of contemporary (non-boug) reactionaries.
>>2445185You seem to fantasize about incels raping women a lot. Are you by any chance involved in the true crime or serial killer fandoms? I would recommend the book "Killer Fandom"
https://www.mediastudies.press/killer-fandom .
>>2445152This is what happens when you dont read Zizek. His point about obscene enjoyment and why rightoids vote for explicitly cruel policies isn't that
>The enemy derives pleasure from transgression and lack,But that EVERYONE derives enjoyment from violation of taboo. This is literally the same reason why we love to joke about JDPON, violation of taboo is how derive surplus enjoyment. In fact Zizek explicitly attacked people who wants to return to a comprehensive moral system as opposed to a voyeuristic, taboo breaking one, because 1). Your enjoyment still relies on prohibition for one, and 2). Because a lot of times moralists used their morality to shit on people they view as less moral, which in itself is an enjoyment of violation of taboo (sadistic putting down of others)
>>2445191Welcome back Eugene.
Interesting mentions, I will check them out in the coming weeks.
I disagree however that this critique and analysis requires eugenicist thinking. There's an interplay of religion, upbringing, class as well as other factors involved here that leads to a particular brand of incelism which pushes the idea women should be subservient to men, and men are entitled to a girlfriend or wife.
I think it's wrong to claim for example that Elliot Rodger would always have grown up to become a homicidal and seemingly narcissistic incel no matter where he was born or brought up.
It's especially strange (assuming you're the same poster) to claim this is based on
>>2445198 "reading second hand moralizing sources". When several Nazi theorists (including chiefly Hitler himself), as well as interwar and immediate post war reactionaries like Julius Evola openly shared the same attitudes to women, sexuality and race.
And no, I do not have a sadomasochistic streak I project unto the nazis. I do not think sex is reducible to domination. Also some Nazis, who never served in WW1, shared the same views. So you can't chalk this up to PSTD from wartime service.
>super-criminologistVery flattering Eugene. But I'm still not convinced people who write tracts about incinerating black children with flamethrowers (and yes, that sort of stuff has been posted on places like /pol/), or fantasizing about enslaving and raping women and girls, including migrant children in ICE detention centers (the screenshots for this are also floating around) are doing so merely because they're poor or something and misunderstood and lack an "identity".
>>2445201Semi-relevant
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02632764241267916?int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.8I mean this sort of liberal feminist shit literally has roots in eugenics and the fucking Klan. Read Cynthia Eller's "Living in the Lap of the Goddess: The Feminist Spirituality Movement in America." Also Ronald Hutton's "The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft" for some of the colonial context. Also Kathleen Blee's "Women of the Klan: Racism and Gender in the 1920s." You had literal Klanswomen moving on to work in women's liberation.
That being said every political movement has a right and a left. I would say that a liberation movement becomes stagnant when the demographic begins to integrate into state-monopoly capital. So IMO feminism became stagnant during the the 1970s but was still of minor benefit before then. It's not purely one thing or the other but contextual. It's dialectical.
IMO capitalism does have a socially progressive aspect (though it is stagnant under imperialism) and so you should expect a certain amount of socially progressive causes to rightfully ally with capitalism.
>>2445211Fascinating, although i have to say that i am aware that many early suffragite in the South were racist as fuck, but i do not know whether this is out of actual conviction or out of a desire to be accepted in Southern political milleu.
I am leaning to the former, because you can see a lot of women even today who featured in far right movements outside of the west, like RSS in India; and in each cases they claim that this or that minority are rapist male monsters that has to be destroyed by a right wing state, exactly how some libs generalize incels
>>2445207Read
https://aristasia.guide/ and maybe Mark Sedgwick's "Against the Modern World: Traditionalism and the Secret Intellectual History of the Twentieth Century" and Spencer Sunshine's "Neo-Nazi Terrorism and Countercultural Fascism: The Origins and Afterlife of James Mason’s Siege".
It's funny because Dianic Wikkka is directly tied to the same Evola Nazi perennialism which led to whacky incel cults. Also the men's rights movement is a direct spring off from NOW/liberal feminism.
Also semi-relevant
https://maia.crimew.gay/posts/brg/ >>2445213So feminism originated as a pre-Marxist branch of utopian socialism. IMO feminism then must have split off into three loose tendencies: a more radical materialist/Marxist sort of femininism, a more reformist social-democratic femininism and a flat out Hitleresque feminism. I think this is just the natural sort of direction for liberation movements to go that there's always going to be a left-wing and a right-wing.
I put part of the blame on Zionism. Zionism really was the prototypical subversion of a liberation movement (aside from the Nazis of course). But I mean this shit is a problem everywhere like MLKKK, so subversion is not a problem specific to one group or movement necessarily.
>>2445209There's that too, and I am familiar to what you're referring to. But see the point first and sixth point I listed about contemporary reactionary (ethnonationalist, masculinist/misogynist, racist, religious extremist, etc.) movements: However they were accepting of "using" women like that, they did not tolerate women having political or moral authority over them. Except in the case of a mother having some authority over her children in the context of an otherwise patriarchal family.
Women could be mothers, friends, lovers, they could even be respected professionally in rare cases like Riefenstahl and Hanna Reitsch were. But they could never be "above" a man in terms of ultimate moral, economic, political and spiritual authority. The family unit remained fundamentally patriarchal, and a woman's interests were subordinate to a man's.
The existence of what at first glance might appear as "free love" among some segments of the SS was a politically empowering for women as prostitution was of female slaves in Ancient Rome. It's simply not the same as women being seen as potential equals or being capable of entering positions of authority which might threaten the general status of men within their sexual hierarchy.
>>2445211I'm not unaware of the role of racist white women in early American feminism, including women like Margaret Sanger and her cooperation with known eugenicists, as well as her own statements.
>>2445201I don't get the impression at all that Zizek ever implied everyone wants to secretly rape and kill because doing so is taboo under contemporary liberalism. Or that the obscene enjoyment he described is somehow universal across all classes, eras, and political movements.
There is a general appeal to a "you may" - including for Liberals. But the difference here is in what contemporary reactionaries intend to do. The enjoyment of being able to be openly gay, or transition as a trans woman regardless if this enjoyment is heightened through the breaking of taboo, is not comparable to sadistic fantasies about subjecting women to rape, or owning minorities as slaves.
I know some people really want to do this "ISIS and Nazism are, psychosexually, basically just Liberalism too" but they're not.
>>2445204It has nothing to do with "enlightenment" in the purely "rational" and "intellectual" sense, it has to do with a very fundamental difference in both attitude, as well as self-worth and confidence. I'm on the record here having state before Communism is in fact, not rational, and people trying to convince random people to "become" Communists through Logic and Facts are completely missing the point of what it is about.
I'm also not someone who thinks the intellectual basis of Liberalism isn't in itself a load of nonsense, and a convenient narrative for what it is really about.
>Condescending toneMatter of perception and attitude. I didn't condemn or ridicule them. I stated that NEETs, as far as they're comfortable with their existence (be it access to video games and anime, or deeply artistic hobbies, working out and reading philosophy all day) are not the same as certain brands of reactionaries seething silently about how other people having sex, whilst they aren't, and how the idea of a black woman in a position of authority makes them feel both insecure and enraged.
The topic of how Muslim men in general fit into this is a varied one. But I definitely don't believe all Muslim men are backwards, and they all fantasize about raping their wives and killing their sons for being gay or something. What I listed as the tenets of modern reactionaries is not tied to any particular religion, culture or ethnic group. There are many "white" Christian groups far more reactionary than the average Muslim Turk, be it those living in Turkey, or in European migrant communities.
>>2445231see
that is the very problem
that sort of rhetoric gives off knee-jerk vibes.
And I suppose that is also the reason why the sharty right wingers had such an easy time purging leftists from their site - not through bans, but on a more sophisticated, systemic level that reaches into the framework of their form of communication.
What jaking essentially is, is highlighting unrealistic, naive, simple-minded knee-jerk mindsets and put them on display for mockery. Pic partly related I guess. Obviously, this works wonders with an ideology where there is so much cope about the historical record (which is not good for communism, no matter how you look at it).
From a Nietzschean perspective, a jak is mocking Slave Morality, whereas a Chad is displaying Master's morality. And I would even go so far and claim that leftism, in the last 150 years, has been constantly caught within a slave morality, that feeds off its opposition to its masters.
The only exception may be the soviet union, which shifted its propaganda to stark nationalist and traditionalist elements and fed the socialist core theory from that perspective. It's an anomaly, really, and ironically regresses strongly into what lots of lefties are staunchly against.
Oh well…
>>2445235Have you considered that a lot of isolated trans women get trapped in the very same reactionary image board culture you seem to see as unsalvageable?
You completely misunderstand the transgender experience if you see these as totally different social groups and phenomena. The answer to the pink swastika propaganda is not that there is no connection but that Nazis are less repulsive than liberals.
You might like this porn
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/a-prison-a-body-nsfw.63933/You might like the following video on the manosphere and disability (being trans is a form of neurodiversity and a form of disability)
https://youtu.be/qt2SqmgBMEI >>2445241Oh I know there are reactionary trans women. Which is another interesting discussion, like some trans women were somewhat influential in the early NrX sphere. But there's a general universal theme of either bonding over targeting the same out-group (Zionist trans women going after Palestinians and pro-Palestinian activists, "based" MAGA trans women going after migrants, etc), or general anti-communism and advocating bourgeois interests.
I also don't see being trans as a form of disability, or something neurologically abnormal or something which should be pathologized and "treated". And this includes the idea that transitioning itself is a "treatment" for a "medical condition".
I think there is an appeal to transitioning that revolves around how it is self-empowering. Which is a view I've never really seen anyone bring up. If you can change your own gender and the perception of your sex, then what else can you be?
There are examples of what today is recognized as transgenderism in pre-modern times, but I do think some cases today might be a response the pressures or living under capitalism. Some cope through drugs, some cope by flying to Bangkok to be sucked off by a prostitute, others cope and "assume control" over their lives by transitioning. Thus proving they're not mere passive subjects under capitalism and can shape their own destiny.
I think the medicalisation of transgenderism, and the hysteria surrounding it in general, and specifically transwomen, however is exemplary of the general anxiety and angst of live under capitalism. And I also think the whole notion of trans people needing to first be diagnosed with a "medical condition" before they or their transitioning are considered valid is silly.
I bet if Foucault were still around he'd have a lot to say about it.
>>2445244You misunderstand what I mean about queerness and neurodiversity. Being asocial, being aromantic, being asexual or being homosexual what's the difference here? They're all non-normative desires.
You just don't get trans people. It's not a midlife crisis thing.
IDGAF about Foucault, mostly because I don't think he has a good theory of where desire comes from. To me, desire or lack is fundamentally rooted in an alienating society. I think it's utopian to aim for a non-alienating society. I expect a socialist society should be more alienating and more desiring than a capitalist society. But I do think in a socialist society, man comes into control of his own desires. Through controlling the means of production, man controls the means of his alienation.
I suppose this overlaps with what the previous poster mentioned about Zizek and taboo. There is no study thing as a society without deriving pleasure from the violation of taboo.
I think ultimately this comes down to liberal hedonism. I don't want a happy and contented humanity because that is a phantom. I want a humanity in control of its own alienation. I expect a communist society to be far more psychosexually perverse and fucked up than Nazis or liberals. Alienation and desire are not the problem, the problem is the lack of control over our own alienation.
I'm not against capitalist society implanting so-called "false" desires into us because our social desires are always constituted by social relationships of alienation. What I am opposed to is the privately controlled, unequal and exploitive alienation of the many for the benefit of the few.
>>2445275>Being asocial, being aromantic, being asexual or being homosexual what's the difference here? That's assuming I don't reject even heterosexuality as "normative". You also misunderstand my point about transness: I'm not saying it is or has anything to do with a midlife crisis. Alienation, and a desire to affirm one's own autonomy, freedom and will can occur when one is still a teenage or even younger.
I also simply don't see why being trans should be any more controversial than men and women having plastic surgery, working out, using stimulants and steroids, not only to conform to a particular idea femininity or masculinity, but simply because it makes them feel better and more in control of their own lives. Gender transition only appears more "extreme" because of the assumed sanctity of (traditional) sex hierarchies and roles, and the particular sexual pathologies of reactionaries in general.
I also disagree that communism would be more psychosexually perverse, because both what we consider to be psychosexually perversity and the origins of it, are tied to our life under capitalism.
I'm simply not convinced a society where most men are obsessed with owning, controlling and feel entitled to women's bodies, is capable of being communist. There are anxieties in this, about being denied access to something, or feeling emasculated and humiliated when one is not the "dominant" party, that carry over to wider social relations and relations of production as well.
The widespread obsession with female virginity, the sexual life of ones daughters and sisters, and the assumed infidelity on part of one's wives or girlfriends, in both subsistence agrarian cultures, and modern suburbia also coincides with other exploitative and patriarchal structures.
The desire for freedom from a supposed "oppression", or the freedom to simply "be oneself" or travel wherever one wants, is not the same as pleasure derived from sadism and wanting to see others subjugated into a caste system. You cannot reduce liberalism to libertine hedonism. Richer Spencer ranting about quadroons and desiring old racial hierarchies is not the same as a transwomen stating they wish they felt safer being out in public.
>>2445292You cannot say that "psychosexuality", whatever that means, only emerge during capitalism or tied to it. Because taboos predated capitalism, and in fact violation and reconciliation with violatiors of taboos made up a huge part of hunter gatherer society. Imagining a society thay does not derive from violations of taboos, but you do not want that, you want a society with 'correct" taboos and good morality and this is idealistic and religious at the very best.
>There are anxieties in this, about being denied access to something, or feeling emasculated and humiliated when one is not the "dominant" party, that carry over to wider social relations and relations of production as well.Because sex is limited and men are inherently estranged from the process of reproduction, and unfortunately we came up with patriarchal societies to assure continuation of lineage, unlike bonobos where sex is freely avaliable and thus mediate dialectical tension between men and women.
The solution to this is to alter the material base so that the superstructure, that is male anxiety, ceased to be obsolete; perhaps we should externalize reproduction and encourage artificial insemination in tubes. Then we can move on to other taboos. What you are doing, comrade,is merely wagging your finger and pathologizing desires without any actual material analysis.
>The desire for freedom from a supposed "oppression", or the freedom to simply "be oneself" or travel wherever one wants, is not the same as pleasure derived from sadism and wanting to see others subjugated into a caste system.So if it is a "good" desire, which does not harm anyone, then it is authentic desire, but "bad" desires, which harm people, like spitefulness or desire to dominate, is inauthentic to your self?
Where does it come from then? Does Satan give this desire to us, like what the religious people said?
No, the desire for someone to be recognized comes from the same source that gives you a desire to harm,humiliate, and inflict pain on others: yourself. You cannot adopt this view that one is authentic to self and one is not, because, what, the latter harms other people? If i want to harm myself to please others does that make my desires the most authentic of all then, because not only am i not hurting others but i'm increasing their pleasure in a utilitarian way?
I'm not condoning these desires anon. But this is human desire; by nature it thrives in violation and transgression of norms. Again, think of JDPON memes or the phenomenon of Fedposting in general. The answer is not to suppress them, which is the religious answer of praying whenever you have sinful thoughts,but to develop a coherent ethical system that accomodates human perversion and societal flourishing
Unique IPs: 118