What's their fucking problem? Their membership ranges from genuine MLs all the way to reactionary rejects. Do they think the way to build communism is to adopt all the worst and most aggravating positions held by the now defunct black hammer?
>>2454308>>2454303Pious fucking losers
>>2454325Listening to breadtube is a horrible idea
>>2454298they are the great hope of the USA left
>>2454331I'm not disagreeing but it's at least something concrete to reference and/or criticise
I've been interested in the ACP because I've seen some of their outreach and how they actually try to work with the community around them which isn't something I have seen as much from other communist organizations. I haven't had time to do much actual research on them but I wouldn't mind joining to try and make some kind of change between work and college if there's a chapter near me and they're not as bad as I've seen some people online say they are.
>>2454363Wait until you find out CasaPound also runs charities.
>>2454363>I've been interested in the ACP because I've seen some of their outreach and how they actually try to work with the community around them which isn't something I have seen as much from other communist organizations.you may wish to look harder there's plenty of communist and anarchist orgs out there that do the exact same thing they do and don't operate as a shady scam to prop up a bunch of mentally ill wannabe influencers
>>2454376Is haz getting rich off of dues or something
>>2454298>Their membership ranges from genuine MLsIf that was the case, they wouldn't be part of the ACP, lol.
>>2454383yes, they also charge you for sitting in at any of their public events, one guy i knew who joined paid something like $400 to sit close to haz at some event they were doing in NYC
>>2454402
CPUSA has been shit since the 40s and has been a glowie op since the 50s
>>2454395
Not the ACP, that's for sure.
>>2454402
CPUSA sucks shit, as do all US-based "communist" parties. This is not the own you seem to think it is.
>>2454383>dueslast time I checked members don't pay dues, which should tell you all you need to know about them
ACP only exists online and the only people who argue for/against it are also terminally online
It's the logical conclusion of first world labor aristocratic socialism. They tail the petty bourgeoisie and middle class against the "financial elites" because that's the only way to reconcile western populism with the reality that the working class is a minority in the west. To justify that, they must redefine what "working class", "proletarian", "productive" means, hence the barista discourse.
Everything else is retroactively justified from that position. It's also why they like Hudson so much. Hudson is just reheated Proudhon pretty much: based productive capitalists vs evil unproductive finance. And Proudhon took the petty bourgeois stance on what is "productive" under capitalism, for which Marx owned him in his famous critique.
Truckers and farmers and middle class homeowners are productive because they make "socially important" stuff. But they're also "proletarians" because they supposedly don't actually "own" their MOP and land and property, because they take out loans to buy them, so they're """technically""" owned by the banks and the "financiers".! Baristas? Not proletarian despite making commodities for a wage, because coffee is not "socially important".
Marx, meanwhile asserted that the only meaningful definition of "productivity" under capitalism is that which produces surplus value for the capitalist. Under socialism this becomes irrelevant, but Marx didn't deal with that. So their definition of "productive labor" is non-Marxist.
They subsequently deal with that by claiming that capitalism actually died in WWI and that we're now living under "bourgeois socialism", a planned economy beholden to "financiers". In a twisted way all of this is sorta self-consistent if you forget the fact that all of this is only true if you limit your analysis to the bubble of the western imperial core, and pretend that third world labor and unequal exchange and colonialism don't exist.
>>2454428Quick question, does the CPC ban landlords from being dues paying party members?
>>2454489The CPC doesn't have landlords, stupid.
>>2454432Can you link to any of these statements?
>>2454298Red brown alliance aka the fash. Also: a glowie operation.
Yes, unironically
We have this thread around twice a month. I’m not mad though, it’s fun to be reminded of these spergs.
The ACP is, functionally, a cult of personality around Haz Al-Din, an internet debate bro with a small but highly dedicated following (33k followers on his largest account IIRC) and enough connections to get himself into positions that a man with his level of notability would otherwise not be. His ideology can best be described as Andrew Tate chauvinism mixed with a distorted understanding of Stalin based in American anti-Soviet propaganda, and he conducts himself like Chris-Chan (he even kind of sounds like him).
The ACP, insofar as it actually is a political party, is what you get when someone notices that American “communist” parties focus on liberal idpol instead of the class struggle, and then concludes that the solution is to focus on conservative idpol instead. Their primary goals are to attract conservatives people away from Trump and to them, and to be a successful enterprise. The actual beliefs of their conservative recruits once they’ve gotten them on their team, or the implications of the methods they use to bring in cash, are not serious considerations of the party. So long as the number of conservatives brought in and dollars made increases, they see themselves as a success. The end result is a party with a decidedly petite-bourgeois sensibility.
People have compared it to the LaRouche movement, and while I think it’s an apt comparison, it’s also something much, much stupider than that. It’s what you get when sheltered, middle-class Americans learn of Marxism-Leninism, learn of Communist parties, learn of AES states, but are unable to truly grasp what any of it actually means or what it’s in service of because they’ve never been in a situation that would get them out of their petite-bourgeois bubbles. It’s a bunch of people “doing” the old-school CPUSA, “doing” the Soviet Union; a Las Vegas simulacrum of socialism that is fun aesthetically but carries no actual substance.
>>2454492they're the videos in the thread already
>>2454513>The ACP […] is what you get when someone notices that American “communist” parties focus on liberal idpol instead of the class struggle, and then concludes that the solution is to focus on conservative idpol instead.many such cases. in fact. half the contrarians on this website are already there. basically we get nick fuentes and haz al din dickriders all the time now.
>>2454418Fuckin' BASED
That's my boys.
>>2454513>Andrew Tate chauvinism mixed with a distorted understanding of Stalin based in American anti-Soviet propaganda, and he conducts himself like Chris-ChanMy sides have reached low earth orbit.
Also,
>It’s what you get when sheltered, middle-class Americans learn of Marxism-Leninism, learn of Communist parties, learn of AES states, but are unable to truly grasp what any of it actually means or what it’s in service of because they’ve never been in a situation that would get them out of their petite-bourgeois bubbles.my high school comp sci teacher had a term for these kinds of larps. He called it
<Airsoft/Reenactment PoliticiansWe had a lot of military family kids that liked to reenact ww2 with airsoft guns and each posse that had their favorite country also mirrored the politics of that country but it was corny as shit. There was no substance, only aesthetics.
>German kids would call the teacher Mein Fuhrer>American kids would quote Liberty Prime every other day>Soviet kids would call each other comrade But it will just end there. So he called them airsoft politicians.
imperial japan kids would constantly get in trouble for bringing sapporo beer and were unable to pronounce "honorable" without sounding like a bunch of asian tourists >>2454593That sounds really fucking funny. Also a good way to describe Haz.
>>2454513I always thought the larouche stuff had to do something with Haz literally speaking at a LaRouchePAC event iirc
>>2454593the airsoft cliques sound like the precursor of the whole political compass-hoi4-polandball milieu
>>2454771
God he’s such a fucking fart sniffer
>>2454423
where do their funds come from?
>>2454771
no surprise that haz's heroes are all reactionaries
>>2454892
>Pro-USA
>Third Worldists
new development in gonzalo thought?
>>2454332trvthnvke
amerikkkans are retarded
only a retarded political movement can appeal to other retards
acp understands and is closer to becoming a mass movement than any other socialist org because they understand this simple fact
>>2454396
Everyone I don't like is a breadtuber, cause breadtuber == le bad thing
>>2454396
S4A is a backstabbing asshole and a theorylet, and also a dogmatist (therefore a revisionist as he is guilty of dogmato-revisionism).
>what he does is upload free audiobooks of lenin
You mean which are all free in multiple languages in the internet as the first or third Google search result?! WOW! What a feat this dude has undertaken.
>grifter
Try to attack them based on their substance and theory, and not make things up. There is no evidence that Haz or Hinkle are grifting - which also be illegal, enriching themselves on membership dues. Considering the amount of passionate haters they are getting, you'd assume someone would already have taken legal action.
Hinkle already has enough money. Haz gets donations on his personal Infrared stream which is not the ACP.
>who also have youtube channels
So? What is wrong with a party having a YouTube channel, are you forreal? Do you know almost all Bolsheviks were "professional revolutionaries", meaning, they didn't work "real jobs" as well?
>>2454954>Try to attack them based on their substance and theoryThey get attacked on this constantly and for good reason. They regularly display a gross misunderstanding of concepts like productive labour, what constitutes the proletariat, what socialism and capitalism even are, etc.
>There is no evidence that Haz or Hinkle are grifting - which also be illegalGrifting isn't necessarily illegal, it just means you're ripping people off. It's not illegal for Andrew Tate to charge people to attend Hustler's University, but it is a grift because you're paying good money to listen to his low effort nonsense.
>>2454962>They get attacked on this constantly and for good reason.95% of the attacks are of personal nature, most of the times they are accused of bigotry or being fascist, which is no elaborated on. Their detractors did spread a fair amount of lies as well.
>They regularly display a gross misunderstanding of concepts like productive labour, what constitutes the proletariat, what socialism and capitalism even are, etc. Such as?
>Grifting isn't necessarily illegal, it just means you're ripping people off.It's most definitely illegal, it's embezzlement and fraud. Your Andrew Tate example doesn't work because people know what they are paying for. When Jehova's Witnesses knock on your door and ask for a donation, and you give it them, and it turns out that they are just two junkies using the money to buy drugs, that's also fraud and you'd be able to press charges.
The fact that nobody as ever tried that when they are supposedly laundering money should tell you something.
>>2454993>95% of the attacks are of personal natureProbably because Haz is so personally repulsive and an obvious clown.
>Such as?Such as saying that service workers aren't proletarians and don't do productive labour even though Marx explicitly says that they are and do, claiming that we already live under a form of socialism, etc.
>It's most definitely illegal, it's embezzlement and fraudThen you're using the term differently than other people are. Nobody here is accusing them of doing anything illegal, they're accusing them of ripping people off by taking their hard earned money and giving them nothing meaningful or worthwhile in return.
>>2454412Haz is fucking hilarious honestly
>>2455055But damn, he is a hypocrite. And thats coming from someone who followed him on twitter, like sometimes his analysis isnt even wrong or he seems to have a good understanding of historical materialism, other times it feels like he is talking out of his ass. Especially when it comes to that opportunist Dugin and Eurasianism in general. The Infrared video on Stalin isn't even that bad, like I think it makes good use of historical materialism but that might be just me.
>>2455062At least in my opinion as a anarchist the ACP looks bureaucratic and inefficient like the majority of “proletariat” parties that run in elections and get near zero votes. Also the whole “MAGA communism” while its funny it turns me off and sounds like they are just pandering to the conservative audience, and while I don’t dislike them that much they obviously wouldn’t be the group to enact a social revolution, or possibly not a revolution at all.
>>2455062The anarchists I describe aren't in the acp. They're local groups that do things like give food to the homeless, but that's it. They don't really take any steps to oppose the city council or lead people to a long term solution.
>>2455082>anglo boxit still the anti-anglo meme from old /leftypol/ and some times /leftypol/-side twitter around 2017-2019
he just said the meme but "unironically" and threw that away after when he got more popular to around when "MAGA communism” started
>>2455197>They're local groups that do things like give food to the homeless>"food not bombs" for older anarchistsgood for them
>>2455462Yeah, it's fine. It's not to say that they shouldn't feed the homeless. I just don't think it's adequate considering the way circumstances are developing, and the only ones I've talked to that seem interested in actually trying to build something bigger have been local members of the acp.
>>2454995>Nobody here is accusing them of doing anything illegal, they're accusing them of ripping people off by taking their hard earned money and giving them nothing meaningful or worthwhile in return.So every party or organization is ripping you off. When you pay dues or make a donation nobody guarantees you that the party is gonna invest it into something you agree with. That's why you should donate to parties and orgs you agree with.
Still, if Haz or Hinkle were to privately appropriate the money, it'd be illegal.
>Such as saying that service workersThat's still debated. Have you seen Cockshott's take on this?
>claiming that we already live under a form of socialism, etc.They're claiming we are living under a reactionary bourgeois form of socialism, as outlined in the Communist Manifesto.
>>2454451I stopped reading when you put "financial elites" in Orwellian quotations marks, as if that doesn't come from Lenin directly. Finance capital is the merger of industrial capital and bank capital, it's when capitalism becomes fully imperialist.
An anti-monopolist strategy is endorsed by many old and respected Communist Parties around the world.
Michael Hudson is okay, he did a lot of good work.
A popular front strategy by allying with the progressive, anti-monopolist elements of the petty bourgeoisie is as old as Dimitrov.
The barista discourse is dumb but so is your "critique".
>>2454322I'm honestly kind of shocked that people here have actually seen ACP activity IRL, or at least know people who have. Last I checked their numbers were pretty small.
>>2455498>>2455514Let's zoom things out a bit, ignoring the technicalities and just looking at what's in front of us, analyzing it logically rather than appealing to authority.
The ACP is a party that encourages its members to make the party money by becoming petit bourgeois; by becoming small business owners and landlords. Note that they are not just allowing petite bourgeois into the party, but actively encouraging its members to become petite bourgeois, making it a core part of the way the party operates and stays afloat financially. This is, naturally, going to create a petite bourgeois class-consciousness, not just within the party leadership, but within the party rank and file, which is arguably more important, since it's the group that actually carries out real-world action. See, once people are in a position of power like that, once they're making easy money by renting land out to others, rather than doing actual meaningful work, it's generally not in their self-interest to give it up. The only people who serve to benefit materially from such an arrangement are the people at the top of the party, since they would be exchanging economic power for political power. The only benefit the grunts have is winning an ideological war, and, as history shows, material self-interest generally trumps ideology.
>>2455514Hudson and ACP hold that the "financiers" are a separate class in themselves, and that they have usurped the industrial capitalists. This is opposed to Lenin's analysis.
The rest of your post is just excuses for opportunism. Dmitrov was a retard who cucked out to the western soccdems.
>>2455554>I'm honestly kind of shocked that people here have actually seen ACP activity IRL, or at least know people who have. Last I checked their numbers were pretty small.I was just as shocked to meet one irl. I thought they were just an online meme brigade, only to find out my friend was one. And yeah, at least in my state the numbers are quite small, but they're doing what they can with what they have and seem to be actually reaching out to people in order to try and grow.
>>2455498>That's still debated.No it isn't.
>Have you seen Cockshott's take on this?I've seen Marx's take on it.
>They're claiming we are living under a reactionary bourgeois form of socialism, as outlined in the Communist Manifesto.Yeah well that's retarded. Monopoly capitalism was already described in detail by Lenin. "Bourgeois socialism" is only given a couple pages in the communist manifesto and is generally just described as "socialists" that want to alleviate the conditions of the workers without overthrowing the capitalist social order. Today we just call these left liberals or social democrats. It's a political tendency not a socioeconomic system or mode of production.
>>2454451>Everything else is retroactively justified from that position. It's also why they like Hudson so much. Hudson is just reheated Proudhon pretty muchyou're the same idiot who was calling michael hudson an antisemite in that other thread
>>2454451hudson is a guy that is more in the ben norton sphere of things than the ACP sphere of things. ben norton and michael hudson don't do "le gays are degenerates and the baristas aren't real workers" type shit.
>based productive capitalists vs evil unproductive financenot exactly how they frame things. yes they talk about the superiority of chines state capitalism, but specifically in the terms that it is reigned in by a communist party and forced to produce according to a national plan rather than spam strategies that yield high quarterly returns. They basically sound like Dengists which is a completely different thing than this ACP LaRouche type shit.
>>2454993>they are accused of bigotry or being fascist, which is no elaborated onit's been elaborated on multiple times. they go full "the gays are le REAL imperialists"
>>2455716
give it a rest
>>2455729
You are unemployed spammer on leftypol, Any post you make is designed to ruin website for those viewing
>>2455753
You are unemployed agent of Reactionary movements, your purpose is to ruin this website. you are seditious.
>>2455759
China is not Communist, it is right-wing corporatist state with facade of Socialism or Communism, you are unpaid agent of Bourgeoisie
>>2455702I've considered making a giant compilation of posts I've seen debunking ACP apologetics. These retards make the same wrong arguments every thread, and it's maddening to refute it over and over again.
>>2455718
Zero arguments detected.
>>2455735Is this supposed to be proof of anti semitism?
>>2455786
You're combining a bunch of people together and treating them as one.
>The industrial and agricultural workers produces all value. Services create no value.
My question is, what exactly does Marx mean by services here? This is an actual question by the way. I've always thought that he was talking about what we now call the PMC; people whose job is telling other people what to do. Because I find it hard to believe that he would insist that, for example, the work done by a janitor, is not economically productive because they aren't technically introducing a new product. I might be wrong though, I'm open to discussion.
>but this is plain misreading and vulgar bourgeois economic in grossest form.
Why is your English so bad?
>>2455807>Why is your English so bad?because he's a troll who speaks in a stilted way, by giving him a response you are treating this guy as if he's worth anything more than the dirt in my eye
>>2455812No, I mean
why does he speak in a stilted way? Is he illiterate? ESL? both?
>>2455816he could be ESL, could also be that he is EFL but has such poor language skills due to a disability, this makes sense given i see this guy for upwards of 16 hours a day
>>2455082>Remember when retards here heard 'anglo box' the one good thing to come out of acp
>and thought Haz was the next Lenin?lmao no
>>2455827i can distinctly remember it though
>>2455598monopoly finance capital being regressive compared to industrial capitalism is just basic marxism not even lenin. it already comes out of marx's analysis of ltv and the falling rate of profit. capitalism is progressive compared to feudalism because it increases productive forces. monopoly is the logical endpoint of market competition where the progressive aspects of capitalism turn into their opposite and cannibalize the productive base.
>>2455807Service is defined in Marxist-Leninist textbook i linked you. any labor that does not augment social aggregate product is what bourgeois economists call "services." Imperialist economic theory postulates that services are productive because imperialist economy is unproductive and service dominant
>>2455816My english is excellent. You are 10th grade level. Shut your illiterate ass up.
>>2455821 you are low quality wrecker who projects
>>2455829You are self-admitted genocidal liberal so your condemnation means the ACP is on the right track.
>>2455833Most qualified TEFL/TESOL teacher.
>>2455846None of what you highlighted was an issue with the Soviet economic system. They had enough retail stores, distribution warehouses, and logistics. Computerisation wasn’t lagging significantly behind capitalist countries.
The core problem was lack of re-investment into means of production after the beginning of liberalisation in the ‘50s and ‘60s.
>>2455833>Service is defined in Marxist-Leninist textbook i linked you.I know. I read it. I'm questioning your interpretation. I want to start a conversation.
The world can do without the PMC, that much is certain. But what about janitors? They're not technically creating something new, but the work they do is obviously important; buildings need to stay clean after all.
>My english is excellentGet real.
>>2455846>the Soviet economy was not particularly efficient.https://jacobin.com/2012/12/the-red-and-the-black/
>First he reviewed eighteen studies of technical efficiency: the degree to which a firm produces at its own maximum technological level. Matching studies of centrally planned firms with studies that examined capitalist firms using the same methodologies, he compared the results. One paper, for example, found a 90% level of technical efficiency in capitalist firms; another using the same method found a 93% level in Soviet firms. The results continued in the same way: 84% versus 86%, 87% versus 95%, and so on.
>Then Murrell examined studies of allocative efficiency: the degree to which inputs are allocated among firms in a way that maximizes total output. One paper found that a fully optimal reallocation of inputs would increase total Soviet output by only 3%-4%. Another found that raising Soviet efficiency to US standards would increase its GNP by all of 2%. A third produced a range of estimates as low as 1.5%. The highest number found in any of the Soviet studies was 10%. As Murrell notes, these were hardly amounts “likely to encourage the overthrow of a whole socio-economic system.” (Murell wasn’t the only economist to notice this anomaly: an article titled “Why Is the Soviet Economy Allocatively Efficient?” appeared in Soviet Studies around the same time.)
>Two German microeconomists tested the “widely accepted” hypothesis that “prices in a planned economy are arbitrarily set exchange ratios without any relation to relative scarcities or economic valuations [whereas] capitalist market prices are close to equilibrium levels.” They employed a technique that analyzes the distribution of an economy’s inputs among industries to measure how far the pattern diverges from that which would be expected to prevail under perfectly optimal neoclassical prices. Examining East German and West German data from 1987, they arrived at an “astonishing result”: the divergence was 16.1% in the West and 16.5% in the East, a trivial difference. The gap in the West’s favor, they wrote, was greatest in the manufacturing sectors, where something like competitive conditions may have existed. But in the bulk of the West German economy — which was then being hailed globally as Modell Deutschland — monopolies, taxes, subsidies, and so on actually left its price structure further from the “efficient” optimum than in the moribund Communist system behind the Berlin Wall. >>2455853Then why did people wait in line for virtually everything?
>>2455856That doesn't address my point. Soviet industry could be about as efficient as Western economies but the distribution system failed to deliver because they failed to invest in "unproductive" sectors of the economy.
>>2455833>My english is excellent. You are 10th grade level. Shut your illiterate ass up. >>2455821 you are low quality wrecker who projectsBro… how do you not know what an article is? That should've been one of your absolute first lessons. I don't know what beginner sentences they could've given you where you wouldn't have been taught about them. How did you not notice that everyone else uses them and you don't by now?
>Service is defined in THE Marxist-Leninist textbook i linked you.>Imperialist economic theory postulates that services are productive because imperialist economy is unproductive and service dominantEither:
<because THE imperialist economy is unproductive and service dominantOR
<because imperialist economyies is are unproductive and service dominant>You are A self-admitted genocidal liberal so your condemnation means the ACP is on the right track. >>2455864How does an alleged lack of retail workers create a "shortage?" How would more retail workers prevent "having to wait in line for virtually everything?"
>>2455830There's no such thing as "regressive" in historical materialist development of modes of production, you're just peddling proudhon type "retvrn to good capitalism"
Notice how the ACP has to characterize fascism in terms of vibes and ideology ("fascism was woke"), because if they defined it in economic terms, their "program" would look suspiciously similar and it'd give the game away.
>>2455899>you're just peddling proudhoni think you are just misunderstanding what marx is saying. he doesn't call capitalism good because its productive, he says its progressive because it develops productive forces. marx defines progressive as an increase in productive forces because it brings humanity closer to material abundance, not as increasing surplus value. your conflating productive with progress. he doesn't use the word regressive but its a synonym for reactionary, conservative, etc. meaning that it maintains the capitalism mode of production past its expiry date. monopoly marks the point where the progressive aspects of capitalism reach their completion in the concentration of social labor leaving the only possibility for advancement to communism in the socialization of privately owned productive forces. whether or not one or the other is "productive" in generating surplus-value is besides the point
lenin makes this even more clear.
>>2455896>How does an alleged lack of retail workers create a "shortage?" How would more retail workers prevent "having to wait in line for virtually everything?"the "unproductive" workers are the ones unloading the trucks, stocking the shelves, manning the cash registers, processing the transaction, counting out the change, helping the old ladies load up their vehicles, bringing the carts back into the store. They don't take part in production, but make distribution massively more efficient. This is why buying in bulk is cheaper, not because it cost less to produce, but because there's less transactions to process.
>>2455903Underrated observation
>>2455735the context of this clip is he is complaining about bourgeois zionists at chase manhattan using the tragedy of the holocaust to justify zionism. if that is antisemitic then so is norman finkelstein who has made similar complaints
>>2455958So you're saying soviet shelves were empty because they didn't have people stocking them?
>>2455966another anon already addressed this:
>>2455864>Soviet industry could be about as efficient as Western economies but the distribution system failed to deliver because they failed to invest in "unproductive" sectors of the economy.even in capitalist economies though we see a "failure" of distribution, but it is a deliberate failure. When there is an oversupply, the capitalists destroy the oversupply to bring down the price.
>>2455971>another anon already addressed this:Yeah and I'm seeking clarification because honestly that's retarded
i dont understand. soviet industry didn't fail
I find it funny that the thread was somehow derailed into an actually interesting discussion
>>2456019that article doesn't say soviet industry failed
>>2456020>read time 56 minutes<response 3 minutes after postingAre you sure?
>>2456026>>read time 56 minutesdamn you must read slow
>Are you sure?yup
i think you probably meant to say something different. like the soviet union failing. or possibly soviet economic planning failing, which the article says, not industry. but that also didn't happen.
I think the ACP is completely irrelevant (even more so then most already irrelevant communist parties in the states), but what is even the appeal? I seriously want to know what any ACP defender sees in them, on either a practical or theoretical front, that is worth any modicum of merit and isn't dwarfed by some already existent orginazation or movement. On a practical standpoint, his attempt to appeal to conservatives is entirely dead in the water; not a single one is going to jump ship to his particular brand of "communism" in any way given the dozens of other political alternatives that don't require them to be the one thing they, at the very core, are vehemently against. Liberals aren't going to be convinced either for obvious reasons as well. The various "factions" of the far right aren't going to be signing up and paying dues anytime soon either, they have their own groups, individuals, and programs to rally around that don't require them to literally join up with the thing their ideology (9/10 times) emerged to oppose. That leaves open only a portion of the disaffected that is "left leaning" in one way or another, in that they are willing to hear out some discussion on Marxism or whatnot without immediately brushing it off. Of those, 99.99% of those individuals aren't going to want to follow, in real life, some person who's claim to politics is being an inept terminally online streamer who doesn't even understand what he's saying half the time. And no, throwing out buzzwords like "subject" and "manifest" like some liberal college dropout who heard "Lacan" one time isn't going to convince people when they try and actually get to the meat of your program. Of the few that stick it out, you lose at least half to statements like "communism is patriarchal and that patriarchy gives more freedom to woman" or that "service workers aren't proles". Of the half that remain, you then lose those that are only radical in terms of economic program (if you didn't already lose them from the before mentioned comments), because your program is effectively mild social democracy with a mix of American exceptionalism/nostalgia, then those who care zero for "American patriotism" because they see the US as an inherently imperial colonialist project and find your incessant need to appeal to it as reactionary. Older leftists are also out, because they aren't going to get practically any of what you are saying or how you present it, as are the MLs who adhere to the anti-theist internal party policy of nearly every ML party in existence. So all you are left with are a small percent of terminally online, contrarian, pro-US (in the context of "return"), pro-religion, anti-social, largely unemployed, middle class, disaffected young men. Which can be loud, but in the end, cannot contstruct a party that operates in the places they need to, or have either the theory and/or the praxis needed to prevent being superceded by literally anything else. Even a failure of a party like the CPUSA has broader appeal in certain neighborhoods, and aren't going to scare away minority workers when they learn how chummy their leader is with retards like Fuentes after a single google search.
>>2456028>i think you probably meant to say something different. like the soviet union failing. or possibly soviet economic planning failing, which the article says, not industry. but that also didn't happen.NTA, but Soviet planning absolutely did fail, beginning with the central committees and Politburos skepticism of any kind of cybernetic planning, as well it's refusal to make plans to move past the money form, as it overtime inched closer and closer towards integrating into the global system, until the 80s where it became more easily convertible to the US dollar and signified the beginning of the end as the Soviet note was now measured directly against an international capitalist system of currency and valued in terms of such.
>>2456035>Soviet planning absolutely did faildepends what you mean by fail. if you mean didn't increase GDP according to capitalist standards or didn't have blue jeans and coca cola thats one thing, and those are subjective measures. but if you mean that it caused the collapse of the state thats not really true.
>>2456030Good analysis. The ACP is primarily a LARPing group for middle-class petite bourgeois polandball autists.
>being in the ACP
cringe
>being a Houdinist
based
I think it's useful that the ACP exists and is trying what they are attempting, because now everyone knows that approach is almost certainly not the road to a mass party
>>2455864>Then why did people wait in line for virtually everything?Firstly, they didn’t for staples. Lining up occurred for seasonal or scarce goods exactly as happens in modern capitalist economies. Secondly, the overwhelming cause of scarcity was failure to invest enough in means of production, ie produce more goods with less labour. And this was primarily a fault of the LIBERALISATION, ie pushing investment decisions down to factories instead of at central planning bureau level.
The Soviets didn’t have factories full of goods that they couldn’t distribute due to failure to invest in distribution.
Your flag is 99% of the time an indicator that what follows is brain dead anti-Sovietism from the 1980s.
>>2456037>if you mean didn't increase GDP according to capitalist standards or didn't have blue jeans and coca cola thats one thing, and those are subjective measures. Dude, what I said is very clear that it had nothing to do with "blue jeans" and "coca cola", or even GDP. The very fact that it moved towards an economy that weighed itself on the basis of GDP is an exposure of a critical failure. The bureaucratization of the state and the rise of a kind of "managerial class", one which eventually took pioneered and took advantage of the later liberalization of the USSR to take control of certain industries for themselves, is a direct consequence of the both representative democratic system of the USSR and its refusal to plan production by cybernetic means and rather maintaining the kind of money from that would eventually be one directly linked to the global economy. I have zero care for how much "profit" the USSR made, that's a useless metric for an economy in transition to socialism.
>but if you mean that it caused the collapse of the state thats not really true.It did cause the collapse, it's just not the immediate cause. It rather led to a chain of cause and effect that eventually resulted in the fall of the USSR.
Though you could also argue this all really began with the failure of the European proletariat to successfully revolt, which led to multiple concessions and a need to develop a center of revolution that was stuck utilizing a representative democratic state. >>2456035Stale anti-Sovietism not informed by even liberal modern studies of the Soviet system.
>>2456052bro is in denial and won't listen. he thinks learning from the USSR's mistakes is slandering epic based USSER.
>>2456052Then why doesn't China collapse?
>>2456062not at all, just that the entire premise that central planning doesn't work so the communist experiment was doomed from the beginning is stupid and wrong. the mistakes described are a contributing factor but they didn't cause the collapse of the state by themselves, and thats an entirely different claim then saying "industry failed"
>>2456052By the time it was technically feasible to implement OGAS the party was already rotten from Khrushchevite revisionism. There is no world where the central committee decides to push the OGAS button in 1970 and the liberal elements disappear and don’t attempt to overthrow socialism.
You also need to read more on cybernetics if you don’t think it doesn’t have its own problem with generating a managerial-technical caste responsibility for designing and running the system.
for the claim "industry failed" to be true and for it to "cause collapse" then the collapse would have been economic, but it wasn't, it was political. industry failure and economic collapse happened after the political counterrevolution with the full elimination of planning and full introduction of capitalism causing it, and directly
>>2456054
>I see brilliance in the Communist Party. ACP is anti-imperialist Communist party.
There are plenty of anti-imperialist communist parties. To put in prespective, let's take a party like the APL. The APL is an strictly anti-revisionist party that upholds (from last I checked) a very clear and enforced Marxist Leninist line. It's not that big. Despite that, the ACP barely even hits it's numbers or has half it's reach. So what does the ACP have to offer that they don't?
>You say ACP or "he" says or does something but you just type words.
"He" has a stream and an online presence, this isn't hidden information.
>You never show official ACP document and dismiss all ACP work because you KNOW ACP is good and you lie to slander ACP and bring nothing but despair to proletarian
People dismissing something doesn't equal them secretly knowing it's actually good, this is some liberal tier logic. I don't have to slander the ACP to make my case, you can watch his interview with Fuentes or his piece on feminism or read his remarks on American patriotism. What communist party feels the need to announce the its support for Călin Georgescu, or for a pro-Erdogan party in Turkey? One built by young ignorant contrarians who confuse the rhetoric they use while terminally online as applicable to real life praxis. This party is dead in the water like so many other opportunists before it.
>>2456080This
>>2456090Get a job
>>2456057Good thing I'm not a liberal then.
>>2456063It didn't flip-flop, which is to say it liberalized without trying to then also maintain/appease older mechanisms of central planning, which in the USSRs case caused both to come crashing explosively into each other.
>>2456067>not at all, just that the entire premise that central planning doesn't work so the communist experiment was doomed from the beginning is stupid and wrongI'm in support of central planning, likely more so then even you are.
>the mistakes described are a contributing factor but they didn't cause the collapse of the state by themselves, and thats an entirely different claim then saying "industry failed"I'm saying it eventually did and set the stage for it.
>>2456068>By the time it was technically feasible to implement OGAS the party was already rotten from Khrushchevite revisionism. I can agree with this to some extent, but not entirely. There were multiple times this could have been pushed through, particularly after Khrushev, though I admit the possibility was not a great one.
>There is no world where the central committee decides to push the OGAS button in 1970 and the liberal elements disappear and don’t attempt to overthrow socialism.I'll agree, I think there would be internal struggle.
>You also need to read more on cybernetics if you don’t think it doesn’t have its own problem with generating a managerial-technical caste responsibility for designing and running the system.Does it have considerations that if unaddressed could hypothetically lead to future problems? Sure, but far less then the system which would have preceded it. What's the risk? Bureaucrats again? Capitalist revision? Out of all the choices that contain the possibility of progressing the system, it's by far the best one and is only one that has a path that leads to the abolishment of the money form.
>>2456070>for the claim "industry failed" to be true and for it to "cause collapse" then the collapse would have been economic, but it wasn't, it was political. industry failure and economic collapse happened after the political counterrevolution with the full elimination of planning and full introduction of capitalism causing it, and directlyThe political and the economic are not separate. On a largely Marxist site, I should not have to elaborate, but you should know that one is an expression of the other, of which one then goes on to shape the other. A failure to further centralize made an economy in which a certain a failed democratic political structure solidified, which then went on to liberalize the economy further.
>>2456080This was meant for
>>2456060 >>2456120>APL is defunctSo what's
https://www.americanpartyoflabor.com/ then?
>and they are dwarfed in IG followers by the Party 16 times younger.The ACP Instagram has 4558 followers. It's already an odd measure of success, but your beloved LARP club fails even at that.
>This is ironic because ACP is the only growing Communist Party.Source?
>>2456120
>APL is defunct. They have no media presence and they are dwarfed in IG followers by the Party 16 times younger.
I shouldn't have to tell anyone this, but IG followers are not acting members. And the APL being stagnant just makes your claim even sadder, given how despite being so small they still are active on street and have a larger reach.
>ACP gives proles the outreach they need. You admit you have no case and and produce more slander. The Party helps workers, so you lie to hurt workers.
Where did I admit I have no case? And how does the party help workers? In the same ineffectual way so many other opportunists do?
>This is ironic because ACP is the only growing Communist Party.
This doesn't sound right, but I wouldn't doubt it. Every opportunist party grows at the beginning, I can name 5 opportunist trotskyist parties that have "grown" in the last 10 years. A growth of 0% to 1%, with a starting number of 1000, in a country of 340,000,000, is growth after all lol. If they keep this up, they can have almost 1105 in ten years!
>>2456101China is still centrally planned they just dont micromanage
>>2456185I'm not going to make this a debate among anon about what's our cut off for central planning, but the point was that when Deng made the move to liberalize, he worked to gain party consensus and made a plan to incrementally move forward. Gorbechav liberalized disastrously while simultaneously trying to maintain a party which had absolutely no consensus with him on the issue, which resulted in the coup, which then got put down and resulted in Yeltsin taking power and going full throttle and dismantling everything overnight.
>>2455598>Hudson and ACP hold that the "financiers" are a separate class in themselves, and that they have usurped the industrial capitalists.And? Marx and Lenin didn't live in the times where 70% of the GDP is generated by financial services. They are a rentier class, which is indeed different from industrial capitalists. Show me the part where Marx and Lenin said that their class analysis is set in stone
>>2456019The fucker is a lolbert and this is bullshit:
>Allocative efficiency: Concerns the ability of an economy to efficiently allocate inputs. An economy is allocatively efficient if given a level of technology, no gains can be made if productive factors are shifted around (Or, that the marginal rates of technical substitution (MRTS) for the inputs are equal in every possible use). An economy can be allocatively efficient and yet be inside the PPF, due to technical inefficiency.You cannot know "allocative efficiency" without trying all possible combinations. All this bullshit just is trying to say, oh socialist countries did not like the rat race therefore badddd. Fuck the rat race and fuck the west. The soviets should have just nuked the west. You nuke the entropy worshippers.
>>2456336>Creation dateI think he is trying to argue they are a high-growth startup.
>>2455903Historically, there is very little difference between socialist and fascist economics. This was also downplayed by socialist states because they too saw that fascists used socialist methods to stabilize capitalism. Park Chung He, The Shah, Singapore, used fascist methods that also looked similar to soviet central planning. The only difference materially between fascist and ML economics is the role of the capitalist as a middle-man. This is also why both wignats and bordigafags claim that china is fascist.
>There is a thin line between love and hate<There is a thin bordiga between fascism and socialismt. not a bordigafag >>2456355Not really. Fascism is just what westerners experience the receiving end of capitalisms perpetual violent expansion as.
It's not structurally different from capitalism, it's just capital cannibalizing the heartland. Liberal ideologues have tricked you by yet again centering the state rather than economic relations.
>>2456246>>2456247New ACP banger just dropped
>>2456051Also these retards tend to ignore the Number 1 reason for lineups is THE DELI SECTION
Even in Capitalist stores, the deli section always has giant lineups.
>>2456376Included the other photo kek. Sorry bros.
>>2456246dishonest bourgeois retard. ACP has half as many subs and has existed for 1/16th the time, yet you call them dead party. You keep doubling down because you know you are wrong. IRL, those parties actually don't do shit. They don't visit Houthis. They are fascist imperialist parties. You know all of this, of course, so you LIE about the Communist Party to hurt proletarians.
>>2456336You are the one who is dishonest or with brain damage. Those other parties are longstanding apparati of bourgeois dictatorship, yet they have no actual following because all of their old viewers and subscribers are dead of old age or feds
>>2456475 (me)
PS
if these other parties are so much bigger than ACP, then how come they dont do shit? Why hasnt CPUSA PSL or ALP sent anyone to Yemen or Iraq like ACP? Why dont they recieve audience with Hamas like ACP?
>>2456475>ACP has half as many subs and has existed for 1/16th the timeSo? 7.44k is still a smaller number than 14.7k. And it's not like they pulled these 7.44k followers out of nowhere; I'm willing to bet money that the majority of these people are from Haz and Hinkle's existing audiences. And even if they weren't, how do you know that this growth is going to continue? As someone whose read his fair share of graphs, the tendency for this kind of thing is to taper off in growth until it hits a straight line, not continue growing rapidly.
Beyond that, no matter how you split it,
none of these numbers are particularly impressive. If we're using social media follow-counts as our measure of success, there's individual gay furry porn artists that are more significant to the cause of leftism than the ACP.
>yet they have no actual following because all of their old viewers and subscribers are dead of old ageChat, is this true?
>>2456538
More than anything, they care about themselves. It's a giant ego trip for Haz; everything else is justified backwards from there.
>>2456537
>>ACP is anti-vijay prashad
>that really tells you all you need to know. they want to make the international socialist milieu to be more reactioanry,
Weren't they pro him when Hinkle invited him on the show? Not to defend them, but is it surprising they would turn on him after he turned on their leader?
>>2456574>So you think having 2 subscribers after 16 years is better than having 1 subscriber after 1 year?No, where did you get that from? I'm saying that 1 subscriber after 1 year isn't impressive period.
Also, if we're comparing apples to apples, as
>>2456249 shows, BreakThrough news, which is functionally an extension of the PSL, managed to get over a million subs, and it has existed a mere four years more than the ACP's channel has.
>The growth will continue becauseI don't have any numbers on hand (guess it's time to check up on the Wayback Machine), but IIRC, their sub count saw a big initial burst at the beginning, but has mostly stabilized at this point. So as far as I can tell, their growth already hasn't continued. Feel free to correct me on this one though.
>>2456633
Hey, you're the one who brought up the PSL in >>2456194, I'm just responding to you!
By the way, if the ACP youtube channel were to continue its current growth rate, it would take roughly 13 years for it to hit 100k subscribers.
>>2456246>>2456247>Who the fuck is leaking this shit?<Glowies are on a roll reading thisI don't know what is happening but if this is about losing support of china, I think it's simple. the chinese did an analysis of communist popularity in america and realized the only white people that would support communism (doing so even out of spite) are those exact "freaks of nature" that haz is angry over. They realized that "trad masculine white men" of america are more likely to join a fascist org or anything like that than a communist org. The country itself is very unconducive to communism in general. Settler colonialism in a fertile place really does create these types of people. Should america have been in middle of europe, all that bravado and individualism would have been thrown out the window the moment an invasive force or outbreak struck the land. The chinese know this and realize that not only is communism highly unlikely, but of the likely communist elements, only those really disaffected by capitalism would stick to supporting communism. That being said, the chinese will read these messages and will say to themselves: we were right, they are just white racist larpers.
>>2456247>>2456881I just noticed, the statement
>Way too racist for this channelImplies the existence of a channel where racism is in fact acceptable. What the hell's wrong with these people?
>>2456881literally just seething and sour grapes over roy singhams bankroll. psl has problems too but they and tricontinental are pretty based all things considered
real fucking disappointing to see carlos turn into a clout chaser i actually liked his writing
>>2455759
even the chinese don't believe this anon
>>2456881>Who the fuck is leaking this shit?Probably their ex-lawyer (Molera was the name I think) and Danny Shaw who were on the leadership board until Haz offended them with his antics.
>I think it's simple. the chinese did an analysis of communist popularity in america and realized the only white people that would support communism (doing so even out of spite) are those exact "freaks of nature" that haz is angry over.There was a funny moment when Hinkle met Zhang Weiwei and was like "so how about those crazy baizous eh professor Zhang? Eh?" and Zhang was like "yes but there is also the baiyou." And Hinkle was like uhh I don't know what that is.
Haz is a freak. Russia might not care about that or may even like that, but for the Chinese… I suspect that's too unpredictable. What they care about is business, trade and investment which is part of their development strategy. Like just watch CGTN. The intended audience are not the freaks. Why would they entertain freaks who might only embarass them or entertain crazy schemes about sending guns to Haiti. China also doesn't like U.S. hegemony and the U.S-dominated global system, and you look at Trump and he doesn't like it either (because it's too expensive and has hollowed out American manufacturing etc.) but Trump wants to go back to 19th-century mercantilism. For China, that's not good. It leads to trade wars and great-power rivalries and that's bad. There are some pro-China leftists who seem to adopt the same mental model for the world as the U.S. but want China to engage in that. Like they see "Cold War" and take the Chinese side, but that's not their agenda. Remember that the U.S. is China's largest trading partner.
>>2456355>Historically, there is very little difference between socialist and fascist economics. This was also downplayed by socialist states because they too saw that fascists used socialist methods to stabilize capitalism. That's not true at all? Utilizing the state to stabilize capitalism isn't unique to fascism, that's entirely a feature of every capitalist economy. "Socialist methods" aren't "when the state does something", and historically most fascist economies were rather hands off in terms of private industry and cowtowed to industry leaders.
>Park Chung He, The Shah, Singapore, used fascist methods that also looked similar to soviet central planning.What do you see as looking similar? The methods, reasons, and goals behind them seem very different.
>The only difference materially between fascist and ML economics is the role of the capitalist as a middle-man.What's your source for this? Like, capitalists weren't even "middle-men" in many fascist economies, they were the direct leaders and runners of the economy. Take for example Nazi Germany as but one example, most decisions the state made had to be first approved by the capitalist industry of which the request was made to, and those industries held overwhelming power to simply reject the request with little consequence.
>This is also why both wignats and bordigafags claim that china is fascist.Having been around leftcom (bordiga) circles, the accusation isn't exactly that china is "fascist", rather that China is capitalist, and that fascists are also just capitalists who would be indistinguishable from many other modern capitalist states outside of social policy and aesthetic, and that the failure in the analysis of other communists comes from trying to treat fascism as something "unique" and "exceptional" despite being yet another inevitable form of bourgeoisie rule that emerges naturally from the mechanisms of capital. It's where the "ᴉuᴉlossnW Socdem" meme come from.
>>2456475>>2456492>>2456574>>2456633>muh Houthis I don't particularly like the CPUSA or the PSL, but they absolutely have sent people over the last decade to meet up with groups all around the world, particularly in colonized countries or those under the threat of imperialism. They've been in Palestine before the ACP ever was, and I believe the PSL has some correspondence with North Korea. Constantly bringing up the Houthis as a singular example to handwave all else, when it was simply an influencer showing up a conference with a bunch of other non-communists is laughable.
>>2455481I don't really care, "food not bombs" does better job people compared to here or that anything haz does.
Besides in theory how the organization itself could make change or how it feels like to be their, it still seems that anything with haz-related isn't going to end well.
>>2456952>baiyouPlease elaborate what that is. I'm also retarded.
>>2456966>This is valuable insight. China values stability, not antics.It appears the chinese strategy of "Doing Nothing, Win" is rooting in non-aggressive expansion and boiling the frog alive. They realized the soviet strategy of constant antagonism gave rise to american strategic discipline and impetus to fight the USSR. China does not want to give ammo to its enemies and therefore wants to appear as passive as possible. Most leftists have a spartan mentality on these things because of 1945 Attero Dominatus. Sad to say, in this day and age most people learned that head-on attacks make you end up like hitler in the bunker so they do the sneaky approach.
>tldr History proves chinas poison shrimp strategy to be dominant and a lynchpin of this strategy is to avoid flamboyancy and blatant challenges + aggression. >>2457123>haz-relatedThe biggest issue with haz is he has no consistency. His whole shtick is to constantly shit-test his followers as a litmus of how loyal they are. Trump likes to do the same. I give you the ultimate example:
Some of you from the OG 2021 haz remember the Blulak episode.
In that episode, Haz goes on a schizo (ultra schizo) deep dive noticing of how the blue man group, navi from avatar, smurfs, etc. are all a ploy of the NWO to promote green agenda anarcho primitivism and a return to Mother Gaia. Haz further implies kulaks were greenpeace activists and lables blue haired liberals as Blulaks.
>The next dayHaz meets a blue haired girl who seems into him and he shows her on stream while walking (outdoor type of stream). When he shows her, the chat starts going:
<BLULAK BLULAK BLULAKHaz be like:
Alright chill guys, forget about the blulak thing it was just a joke.
That is haz in a nutshell for you.
>>2457139Also he calls her "My Queen" the whole time. I might be embellishing, but this did happen if my memory is not Biden's.
>>2457139>Mother GaiaMan I almost forgot how big that used to be among Maupin orbiters back then.
Abiogenic oil theory was another one of those shit tests.
>>2457136>Please elaborate what that is. I'm also retarded."White right." Which applied to the U.S. means MAGA. Also the term "white" here more refers to the color of reaction, like White Army. It's not necessarily a racial thing. (I think.)
>>2454298>Their membership ranges from genuine MLs all the way to reactionary rejectsWhat's that line about nazis at a table again? When the organizational line is constantly sprouting openly reactionary social fascists, it doesn't matter if one or two people appear to be "genuine MLs". Those "genuine MLs" are subjecting themselves and following a reactionary fascist line, and are no different from the "reactionary rejects".
>black hammerACP represents a far more reactionary and dangerous tendency than Black Hammer's petty-bourgeois Black nationalist politics. Black Hammer's a dime a dozen. Every city has a Black Hammer-like trend and it at least stems from genuine national oppression. The ACP represents the organizational unification and concentration of "national socialist" politics in the US from the dominant nation in the empire. While they're presently something of a joke, as genuine revolutionary politics advance they will ride the equal and opposite reaction to that.
idk how i forgot about the larouche shit. acp is like an online version of it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Caucus_of_Labor_Committees#Operation_Mop_Up
>conflicts with other leftist groups, culminating in "Operation Mop-Up," which consisted of a series of physical attacks on members of rival left wing groups
>During "Operation Mop-Up," LaRouche's New Solidarity reported NCLC confrontations with members of the Communist Party and Socialist Workers Party. One incident took place April 23, 1973 at a debate
<The clown show is over. The Labor Committee warns the Socialist Workers Party and its comrades-in-hysteria: when you did all the fighting for the Communist Party at the mayoral forum, we held back – we gave you a mild warning, though several of your members were bloodied and broken. But should you repeat as goons for the CP, we will put all of you in the hospital; we will deal with you as we are dealing with the Communist Party.sounds exactly like haz lmao
>By the mid-1970s, the NCLC had abandoned Marxism altogether, in favor of what its members described as an American System approach.sucks for them cause china actually still talks to the schiller institute
The deep lore Catholic ACPers vs Protestant ACPers was funny. Forget about the nuances of the different interpretations of Marxist-Leninist thought - what about Christian thought lol.
>Their membership ranges from genuine MLs all the way to reactionary rejects.
So reactionary rejects
IM JOKING CALM DOWN
>>2457557>The deep lore Catholic ACPers vs Protestant ACPers was funnyTell me more
>>2457484Communism is impossible in america due to individualist culture. That is why leftist movements have to do this syncretic bullshit. People in other countries where communism took hold at least had the humility to try something new after realizing their current dominant culture etc. was reactionary and holding back their development. Ameritards are like downies hitting their head against the wall "BUT REAL CAPITALISM HASN"T BEEN TRIED, WE CAN STILL ACHIEVE TRUE MCFREEDOM". This is also why americunts are the most propagandized people on the planet. The elites have invested a lot to keep the people thinking in the magic of crapitalism thus to avoid class consciousness. Ameritardia is like ancient greece or carthage (and not rome). This is good for JDPON because there is only so much propaganda that can be deployed against material reality. The people of the world a fighting a weaker america than in the 1950s.
>>2457830What's there to tell? A lot of religious nuts are in the party. I guess they are hoping to pull in the churches, mosques, and synagogues, as a means of funding the party or getting recruits. Anyone who has actually dealt with these kinds of social parasites will know how well that'll go. I'm still waiting to see the lawsuits from the lawyerly American revolutionary aristocracy relating to all the libel against the party. The alleged trafficking of a transgender child to O9A neonazis comes to mind.
>>2457577
Genuinely really funny that the best y'all have is no say "nuh uh! YOU'RE the real social fascist because you sound like other people I don't like!" without even engaging with the politics of what social fascism actually is. Completely vapid and a waste of data.
>>2458035
Tell that to the average american and see how he replies.
>But muh freedom to screw over others!!!
>>2458579The average American probably wouldn't understand the question.
Most people, not just in America but worldwide, are driven by their immediate wants and needs, not by ideology. An ideology is something they hitch onto because they think it will help them fulfil these goals. This isn't just me talking out of my ass, it's the whole basis of historical materialism.
>>2458408yeah, because right wingers only yap about freedom as in negative liberty, which is basically compatible with tyranny.
>>2458642
Get a job.
Did the no Haz rule get changed or something?
>>2458659
Doing photo ops and overstating their importance to other organizations who don't know any better (hilariously presenting themselves as CPUSA when it suits them) in order to gain an outsized platform is not some sign of anti-imperialism. It in fact solidifies their nature as reactionaries riding the coattails of proletarian struggle worldwide. Meanwhile, they continuously denounce actual communist revolution and frame fascists as potential allies.
>moralist
You people keep saying this, I don't think any of you actually know what it means. You just insist that people you don't like are making moral arguments and insist that means you're correct.
>>2454451>Another Sakaist😭
>>2455759
Me when every word I have ever read about socialism was written by Adolf Hitler
>>2458659
>recieved by
Why are you so insistent on this phrasing?
>>2456355> Historically, there is very little difference between socialist and fascist economicsWhen the MLoid/Dengist just comes out and says openly that the nearest model of their imagined government and economy actually is just the Third Reich and then mock you (leftcom) for having noticed that and responded accordingly
>>2458659
>You call ACP fascists yet they are accepted by fascists (brown!)
MLs really are some stupid mfers
>>2456355Fascism is just capitalism in times of crisis. In times of crisis, capitalists may be forced into socialistic reforms which lower the rate of profit but that doesn't mean they like it. Basically, fascists are spicy social democrats. Fascists like Donald Trump have to do reforms like partially nationalizing Intel to compete with other countries. That doesn't mean they like those kinds of reforms because they know development lowers the rate of profit. Fascists are desperately holding back the shit and let a few turds leak out as necessary, communists let the shit freely flow and are entirely fine with lowering the rate of profit.
>>2458706>When the MLoid/Dengist stop shadowboxing
>>2458712That's also why the New Deal and FDR were fascist.
>>2458707anarakiddie try not to wreck or retroactively discard all forms of actually existing socialism challenge
difficulty level: retarded impossibility
>>2459193All Haz's point ever was, was that it isn't productive work in the Marxist sense, i.e. exactly what you yourself have admitted here. That he tends towards the more invective and provocative side of things is mostly showmanship, the irony is that in terms of actual substance you're not even in disagreement with him but you're so flummoxed by his aesthetics that you feel forced to reflexively disavow his movement in totality. Kinda funny
>>2459231Omg, Haz sucks so much. Anyone have that clip of him whining his baby ass off about his doordash driver or whatever? I remember him streaming on the street in Hollywood and acting like an annoying teenager to all the people out there actually working a job.
Has he ever had a job in his life?
>>2459193give an example of unproductive labour in the private sector so that we can see the difference
>>2458707>Houthis and Hamas are le fascist Zionist detected
>>2459247hamas were funded by israel, just like ISIS
>>2459253>Hamas = IsisMore zionist talking points, trying to delegitimize hamas as a resistance movement. Kill yourself ziopig
>>2458669
>not wanting to be sent to bukele gulag is zionism
>>2459231>All Haz's point ever was, was that it isn't productive work in the Marxist sense, i.e. exactly what you yourself have admitted here.No, I said that live-in support workers who make a coffee for their clients aren't "productive in the Marxist sense" UNLIKE BARISTAS WHO ARE, FOR THE REASONS I GAVE IN MY POST ,AND WHICH COCKSHOTT GIVES IN HIS VIDEO.
The irony is, its not just haz, a lot of youtubers run discord channels and chats which you have to pay to get into. When union meetings often have problems getting members to turn up to meetings. Without a labour movement, overtime political groups dont really have any link to the working class. The S4A guy linked to above by this anon
>>2454325says it in one of his videos. (Don't just have Marxis-Leninist videos, has IWW organising manuals among his videos(
>>2459333Don't get what the point youre trying to make with this
unless it's
<dont bother studying<dont watch boring Cockshott <watch H*z >>2459263hamas has facilitated the destruction of gaza without any resistance. where is the martyrdom? theyre supposed to be suicide bombers but are hiding underground. theyve sealed the fate of thousands of civilians.
>>2459302what makes labour either productive or unproductive?
>>2459340Kill yourself zioscum
>>2459344>hamas is bad because they are funded by israel<you must support israelreading comprehension status?
>>2459347You are blaming the genocide of gaza on hamas, you are a zionist
>>2459342whether it creates surplus value for the capitalist
read marx
>>2459348gaza genocide was justified with hamas attack on that fateful day, you are sionist
>>2459348hamas is an israeli asset
so yes, technically.
>“We need to tell the truth,” Israeli major general Gershon Hacohen, an associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, said in a 2019 TV interview. “Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”>After Hamas’s recent attack on Israel, Netanyahu vowed that every member of the group is a “dead man.” Yet Netanyahu has also strategically facilitated millions in funding to Hamas by allowing Qatar to give cash subsidies to Gaza — cash he knew would flow, undetectable, to Hamas leadership. Since 2009, Netanyahu’s political strategy has revolved around keeping Hamas alive and kicking — even if it hurts his own people. While Israel and Netanyahu give lip service on the international stage to seeking a two-state solution, Hamas provides a convenient excuse to avoid pursuing one.https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decadeswho is on the side of the nazis, again? fucking retard. keep larping as a terrorist like all the school shooter chuds do.
>>2459356and what labour does not create surplus value?
>>2459356
>what makes labour either productive or unproductive?>>2459342>whether it creates surplus value for the capitalistread marx
Or the anon doesjt want to read Marx ,or watch the Cockshott video which explains it, they could watch this video instead, .about 15 minutes in
>>2459361>So yes technically ☝️🤓>Hamas are le evil terrorists like isis and you larp as them!! Kill yourself you fucking genocide justifying zionist scumbag
>>2459382why cant you explain a basic concept to me? almost as if you dont know what youre talking about - but i'll bite, what part of marx's work should i read to get an answer? post the source.
>>2459363if a company hires a gardener to maintain their property, it does not generate surplus value for the company
if a gardening company hires worker to perform gardening as a service, that labor generates surplus value for the gardening company
the first company experiences the gardener as a cost
the second company experiences the gardener as variable capital
for the purposes of being productive to the capitalist, it does not matter what the nature of the labor is. it's a social relation.
that's the only marxist definition of a "productive worker", because the job was to explain how capitalism works
what is "productive" in the wide sense, as in what labor we as a society wound want performed if we had a say (say under socialism), is a completely open question with no answers, it's the same as asking "what's socially necessary?". society decides. on the eve of war, it might be making tanks, in times of peace we might decide that art is more desirable than guns
but this question is invalid under capitalism because you don't get to decide anway.
ACP's proudhonist trick is that they pretend to be asking the first question (marxist productive labor), but then give an answer to the second question: "actually, whatever jobs the white male middle class does is Productive(tm), because society would stop working if they withheld their products. therefore we should organize those workers"
you know who else made society nearly collapse by withholding their products? the kulaks. ACP is the american kulak party, writing kulak theory pretending to be marxist
>>2459396Not him, but the difference is the presence of a middle-man. For example, the vast majority of TV shows are not owned by the people who actually made the show; the writers, the actors, the directors, the set designers, the cameramen, etc. Instead, they're owned by the corporation that's funding the project ("taking up risk"). The higher up you go in the corporate ladder, the less involvement you see in the actual production of the show. And yet it's the people higher up on the ladder that make the bulk of the money. I personally know someone who had an important role in well-known, long-running TV show who is currently selling everything he owns and trying to find a new career that doesn't require a college education, because he sees no residuals from his work on the show and nobody wants to hire him.
>>2459689Yea, I didn't reply to him, because I explained it in my first post (>>2459193 ). If he didn't understand it there was an attached video which should have cleared everything up. If he can't be bothered to try to understand the first post or re-readiing it, its a waste of time replying more.
>>2459857
Ok? Why do people care so much about that?
>>2459853On this website, it's because there's a significant number of people here who are easily swayed by their right-opportunist and national "socialist" line. Outside of here, it's a combination of rage-baiting by the A"C"P itself and genuine alarm from Communists at the threat the A"C"P potentially poses to the working class movement.
>>2459877How does one escape this trap? Seems like getting all outraged about them just fuels the flames no?
>>2459878Could you elaborate on the threat the acp poses to the working class movement? Are they that much worse than the many other dud parties in the US?
>>2459853In relationship to this website leftypol Twitter and Haz has had tension for years. So it is personal vendetta for some when it comes to ACP.
>>2459853Outside of Leftypol and adjacent niche internet leftist spaces, it really isn't. I took a break from the site, and in that time I hadn't heard even a single mention of them.
Within Leftypol, it's mostly because they're lolcows, especially Haz, and we want to keep up with their drama. It might sound strange to say, but there's a non-negligible number of people who use the site like a leftist Kiwi Farms thanks to ISG.
Haz also has bad blood with the site, and his supporters frequently come here to pick fights/shill, so when they get brought up there's a good chance someone will try and make an argument out of it.
>>2459940i concur, IRL in Chicago they are not among the visible parties: Bob Avakianites, PSL, RCA, CPUSA, etc.
i think the correct attitude towards the ACP, is: if it was a mass party of the working class pursuing some sort of minimal socialist program, we should all be in it. but because they are a tiny larpy sect with no traction, we should all shit on them
>>2459926
dude, ive seen all the clips. Bring something to the discussion
>>2460014
I didn't ask about how they're grifters or not tho
>>2460018
I asked how it's dangerous, not about how it's subjectively worse or more shitty. Please contribute something to the discussion
>>2460101
Does China allow independent trade unions and left opposition parties?
>>2460101
Bit of a stretch to compare them to the nsdap lets be real
>>2460120what part of marxist leninist democratic centralist one party dictatorship of the proletariat do you not understand
>>2459923
The USSR had state-owned housing and property. Were they landlords?
>>2460120Was Nazi Germany socialist because it was a one party state?
>>2460122The problem with comparing them to any group that had any level of success is that it ignores the fact that they're retards with no actual ideology or discipline.
>>2459923
>Ethical guidelines
Kek. This pseud has no idea what he's talking about. Why would a landleech sacrifice his multi-million dollar real estate empire so he can work 12 hour shifts in the socialist Funkopop factories in the Communist States of America under Supreme Leader Haz?
>>2460129It’s funny how you make fun of the Funko Pop Soyboys even though Haz mocks them as well
LONG LIVE LANDLORDS!!!!
You guys hate ACP because we are successful. You could learn a thing or two from landlords.
ACP is recruiting the best and most entrepreneurial of Americans. Even Patrick Bet-David will join us soon.(confirmed by Kyle)
All you can do is seethe because we are successful and you are the loser version of 4chan.
We have a policy that any businessman who joins the party will get to keep their business after we seize power while we take over their competitors. You would be surprised how many of our comrades are business owners. Can your pathetic psl or cpusa claim the same? I don't think so. The future captains of Communist industry are on our side.
>Class collab>We must protect smol businesses and a future for socialist landlords>There's too much "sexual degeneracy" these days>Marxism is Islamic>Women shouldn't be allowed to voteMore like the American Fascist Party
>>2456120>Ur slandering us11!<Even though the evidence is ITTSaid like a true cultist.
>>2460135No, I'm making fun of their ridiculous "productivist" stance which implicitly leads to things like the "People's Funkopop Factory" because they don't understand what the fuck they're doing. I don't want to live in the world where I work the same miserable job but "socialist" which has left me with lifelong health problems and mostly shouldn't exist. It's all aesthetics chasing and grifting.
>>2456013As is common. Joke threads are generally the best. Generals are the worst.
>>2460127>>2460151>capitalist social relations are magically different when the state is involvedpseuds here are so fucking retarded
You degenerates will beg for mercy when we take over. Mark my words, you will regret your blasphemy against us.
>>2454771
>Nick Land
Drug addled boomer. Had novel ideas during the 90s/early 2000s, but way past his prime nowadays.
>Dugin
Reactionary anti-communist ideologue whose only close call was when Ukrainian glowies tried to kill him. Even soviets thought he was a gnat and left him alone.
>LaRouche
Lol. He was put in prison for fraud.
No mention of anyone from the civil right movement, no mention of Angela Davis of Assata Shakur, no Jimmy Hoffa or Bill Haywood. You know, people exiled and killed because they were socialists or union organizers.
>>2460166>capitalism is like when you pay for stuff in some wayPlease read a book.
>>2460174>Mark my words, you will regret your blasphemy against us."Blasphemy" isnt thought by the religious to be against men or women.
>>2460185
angela davis was a traitor and deserves no praise.
You are a bootlicker of the demoncrat party.
>>2460208Haz looks like Jesus so blasphemy against us is like blasphemy against the Lord.
>>2460185
Jimmy Hoffa was a mafia gangster. No praise for him.
>>2460142List of people you need talking about you even if not necessarily joining you
>Bad Empanada >Meatcanyon >Contrapoints >Sam Hyde>Jim Profit >Thought Slime >Jason Unruhe >>2460213>Jimmy Hoffa was a mafia gangster. No praise for himACP_TXanon has a broken clock right twice a day moment
The Ghost of Jimmy Hoffa Won’t Go Away
https://share.google/rJY43zuV2TcSzKxlv >>2460181You know, I do wonder why Haz went for the communist angle, considering his intellectual interests obviously lie elsewhere. A man who likes Dugin, Heidegger, and Land should by all means be a hardcore esoteric rightoid. Maybe he was just looking for a niche?
>>2460211I genuinely cannot tell if you're being ironic or not. I hope you're not only being genuine, but are a full fledged member of the ACP, preferably in a higher office, because it would be really fucking funny.
>>2460217Lol
>>2460264Haz's innovation is that he recognized and embraced the reactionary core of western "marxism" and leftism and is triangulating a "people's front" as it were. Striking at nazism for being "gay" reveals the game. Shedding the "vibes" and salvaging the (petty bourgeois, middle class) material interests.
They're doing scientiific fascism (don't laugh)
>>2460351>he recognized and embraced the reactionary core of western "marxism" and leftismno he didn't
the whole point of western "leftists" is that they want socdem redistribution of wealth, LGBTQIA+ rights and feminism stuff like that but don't pay any attention to imperialism or foreign policy or get confused by it or outright support imperialism because they see the imperialist countries as more "progressive"
haz is doing literally the opposite of western "leftism" : he is saying, yes, join my "communist" party even if you're a landlord, don't worry, we aren't abolishing private property, but at least we have all the based takes on anti-imperialism and the foreign policy knowledge.
He's trying to bring together burger landlords and houthis
western leftists are just doing gay lassalleanism
both these forms of politics are deeply retarded for different reasons.
>>2460264>You know, I do wonder why Haz went for the communist angle, considering his intellectual interests obviously lie elsewhere. I think it might be an identity thing while growing up in post-9/11 America. Dem boys are not white, so he can't really be alt-right. However, he's apparently from a Maronite Christian background and not Shia. I don't usually like to go down this angle but he has attacked other people because of their identity.
>>2460499That's as much of a reach as Stalin getting hit by a kart as a kid made him paranoid because of his hand
Some of you are alright. Don't go to new york tomorrow
>>2460524Nah. I'll accept this criticism after Haz takes over the U.S. government. He's not Stalin.
>>2460530News from the Amerikkkan civil war on drugs:
The whole of the invading American Communist Party detachment was hit by a cabbie almost immediately upon entering the city of New York and incapacitated. The victorious driver is reported by bystanders to have stopped, rolled his window down and to have shouted: "Ey, Stronzo, watch where you are walkin'", taunting the unconscious invader, before speeding off.
No civilians were harmed, making it one of the most bloodless encounters of the war to date.
>>2460499His name is Ali dude, his parents are deffo not maronites lmao
saw this on twitter
https://x.com/ACP_Illinois/status/1937008194599190865/video/1>people in psl shirts marching next to acp flag must have been awkward for all involved
>>2460657You mind posting the video directly?
>>2460733just write "cancel" after "x"
xcancel.com/ACP_Illinois/status/1937008194599190865
of course there are lot more people from psl
>>2460174Hi comrade watermelon
>>2460181>Angela Davis of Assata Shakur, no Jimmy Hoffa or Bill Haywood.
>Angela DavisLiberal traitor who destroyed the CPUSA and stabbed Gus Hall in the back
>Assata ShakurRespect for this Black Revolutionary, still a political exile in Cuba, NJ pigs had it coming.
>Jimmy HoffaTrained by Trotskyites, a criminal degenerate. When the Reds were kicked out of the Unions, the mob scum came in.
>Bill HaywoodAn American hero who is buried in Red Square.
Two of these are not like the others.
>>2460791Agreed. Only reason Angela Davis was popular is she met with Honecker and there was a dumbass PR campaign for her in the Pact countries.
>>2460736BIG ASS FILE
I can't man. I just can't.
Also, looks ultra fake and probably very ghey.
>>2459878Why are you quoting the Clown part?
>>2460828
The funniest part about this is yes - Americans need cheap housing. However, buying or building housing is usually a 5 to 30 year investment depending on if it's single-family or apartment buildings. This from a party that is sure that the civil war will happen any day now.
>>2460837
<In present-day society, the instruments of labour are the monopoly of the landowners (the monopoly of property in land is even the basis of the property of capital) *and* the capitalists…In England, the capitalist is usually not even the owner of the land on which his factory stands.
<Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme (1891)
Doesn't make that much difference if it's rented out industrial units, or housing, does it? Obviously, state run housing, whether it was in the former Soviet Union, or in a (now unravelling) welfare state such as Britain, is different from private landlordism. The latter is just done for profit.
>You retarded liberals again prove yourselves wrong
Haz acolytes are great at insults. How is this, is it just a matter of practise? Like judoka say,
<it's just time on the mat
>>2460835
>the only Communist Party in america
You managed to pack two false statements into six words. Well done!
>>2460837
>Engels said so in On Housing Question
Did he?
>>2460856For his next trick, he's going to say "well such and such person was important to communism and he was bourgeois", missing the point that, as far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single successful Marxist group in the history of ever that actively encouraged its rank and file to become bourgeois.
>>2460863
Could you please point to the specific passage where he did it? Because I just did a casual read through of The Housing Question, and I can't seem to find it. I'll admit the possibility that I might have missed something, since this wasn' a serious reading with a pen and paper, but so far, I don't think he said what you think he did.
This place isn't cooked, it's charred.
>>2460890
>Engels explicity says people who rent out a room are not capitalist.
That isn't what he said.
>>2460856Not them, but i can think of a few reasons:
Attention span required for reading shot to pieces by watching hours of Haz twitch streams.
Loosing the argument so now throwing out clouds of vitual ink like a squid.
More generally, Haz's winner-looser cage match approach to debate:
Loser Politics - by Daniel Tutt - Daniel's Journal
https://share.google/QN1vSTIxKvWTb8FXzTutt explains it. But the approach actually goes further back . In ancient Greece Georgias the sophist said that truth wasn't determined by the gods, or anything transcendent (like Plato said. ) It was purely whatever was hammered out by antagonists in the forum, and the motivation for behaviour wasn't the good in itself (as per Plato, again) ,it purely avoiding social shame.
>>2460890
>the already exploited tenant has to rent somewhere to live from a landlord,
>the money for this comes out of his wages
>not the surplus value from his work
>which went to the capitalist
>which was the source of the capitalists profit
<anon somehow thinks this is saying become a landlord, its non exploitative
But its obvious, isnt it? Its not surplus value going to the landlord. But its still what the renter has had to work for ,and which is going to the landlord purely because the housing is privately owned by them. They haven't done any work to earn that money. Any house repairs or mortgage payments will come out of the rent they receive.
>>2459236Anyone performing a service used / consumed by their own employing firm.
>>2460945whats the difference?
The only way to top this thread is if the comrades from WSWS come on to say that Engels said the road to liberation is running a multi-million dollar commercial printing firm.
Northites Inc.: Toeing the Bottom Line - Being Determines Consciousness
https://share.google/lxRIfUMRJ85bZbAvZ>>2461038
this only makes sense where ground rents pay for the cultivation of land. rents on housing possess no recompense for the investment of the landlord, so are not an equivalence of value, but are the extraction of surplus value.
>>2460918>Its not surplus value going to the landlordwhy not? its an excess cost above subsistence.
>>2461038
Isn't the abolition of private property like one of the key demands of the Communist Manifesto?
>The Communist Party
>Implying
>>2461038
> there's nothing wrong with charging a fair rent
>but it you who have a liberal mindset without knowing it
Hey, here's a question: what productive labor does a landlord do? Please explain this to me in your own words, without deferring to someone else.
>>2461047>>Its not surplus value going to the landlord>why not? its an excess cost above subsistence.Because technically rents are part of subsistence , they are part of "the reproduction of labour-power "
>>2461062so if rents were lowered then wages would be lowered?
>>2460837
If my rent is $1000 for a two-bedroom how much should I charge to rent out the second bedroom?$500? $600 to give the party their 20%? What is the correct praxis?
>>2460837
>Renting out a room is not capitalist
<owning private land capital and charging a fee for its productive consumption in the form of a commodity to receive profit is not capitalist
it would only be a value relation if someone paid for what they reasonably consumed, but with an empty room, it cannot lose value besides wear and tear in its productive functions. a bed might be forwarded as an investment cost transferred to the tenant, but in this sense, a rent is limited to the cost of extra utilities, and not the room itself.
>>2460736united front is ok o algo
>>2461070>so if rents were lowered then wages would be lowered?No, it depends on the balance of class forces. If Mr. ACP landlord rents out his property in an area where the unions are strong, wages will be higher generally. But he won't necessarily get more in rent. If tenants unions are strong ,or there has been political pressure and there are rent controls which include private landlords, or there is cheap municipality run housing which undercuts him, no, he won't be able to hike the rents.
>>2460960Surplus value extraction
>>2461094so if subsistence costs lower, then wages exist above subsistence and are therefore over-valued?
>>2461098so the only thing which creates surplus value is paying someone a wage?
>>2461105The worker has to be making or doing something the capitalist can sell to a third party.
A barista makes coffee the capitalist sells to a customer.
A janitor employed in house makes nothing that is sold, just provides it.
A janitor from a cleaning service provides cleaning that is sold to a customer.
A barista for the employees of a service doesn't sell the coffee, just provides it.
The element of a customer is crucial but also doesn't necessarily mean what they produce is useful to greater society.
>>2461101>so if subsistence costs lower, then wages exist above subsistence and are therefore over-valued?no, because even if you have a bit extra to go on holiday and sup some cocktails, its still really part of your subsistence. Its just relaxing to only have to get back to work again. Its not really overvalued, because there is still some surplus value going to the capitalist. Its just a bit less. Sometimes investment magazines warn investors that minimum wage laws are coming in somewhere, so that labour intensive industries there will become less profitable. But, unless they go bust , they will still be making a profit.
>>2461105>so the only thing which creates surplus value is paying someone a wage?Its paying them a wage and them producing more value in terms of commodities produced than they get paid back in the form of wages for that day (obviously, not all of what the commodity is sold for is profit, there are costs of machinery and raw materials ,as well as the wages bill.)
>>2461151>no, because even if you have a bit extra to go on holiday and sup some cocktails, its still really part of your subsistenceso what wouldnt count as subsistence?
>Its not really overvalued, because there is still some surplus value going to the capitalistyes, the value over the price of labour-power… are you implying that labour-power has no determined value?
>Its paying them a wage and them producing more value in terms of commodities produceddo all workers produce commodities?
>>2461161>so what wouldnt count as subsistence?Above average of productivity per capita is necessarily exploitation
>do all workers produce commodities?No
>>2461147>to a third party.This, I think, is key.
I think we're starting to get hung up on definitions and missing the larger point.
What incentive does a landlord, someone who, regardless of the specifics, makes a living off of other people living on their private property, have to initiate a revolution where the number one priority is the abolition of said private property? Outside of abstract ideology, something that history has shown generally follows material self-interest, not the other way around, why would these people want to give up both the power and ease of living that comes with such an existence?
>>2461201good landlords exist you retard
mine hasn't raised rent in 2 years
>>2460837
It's worse, as per Hudson
>>2461161>so what wouldnt count as subsistence?I don't really like the term subsistence , i think reproduction of labour power is better. I might be wrong, but id say in a capitalist economy, anything below what your labour power makes in terms of value put into commodities is reproduction of labour power. Obviously, in non capitalist economies, there would be a surplus as well, in a communist society something would go to communal projects like infrastructure, to benefit everyone. But you'd have a say in these democratically, the surplus wouldn't just go to capitalists.
>are you implying that labour-power has no determined value?Not exactly. Its value is determined by the value of the commodities which go into its own reproduction! So your rent , eats, Netflix sub, etc. Its the amount of these which depend on how much you can claw back from the capitalist through pressure of action etc
>do all workers produce commodities?No. Some dont but they are still necessary for the capitalist system to keep running. For example office staff in a factory.
>>2461081They're right because it isn't capitalist, landlordism is even more primitive and parasitic
>>2461217That doesn't answer my question. Why would these people voluntarily give up being landlords?
>>2461222>o dont like the term subsistenceof course not, because youd be forced to disagree with marx
>the value of labour-power is a democratic decisionmarx disagrees
>>2461236>>2461236>of course not, because youd be forced to disagree with marxbecause sometimes its below subsistence. people who are in jobs but who are homeless
>the value of labour-power is a democratic decisionmarx disagrees
Under capitalism no
Under communism yes
Goodnight im out
>>2461242The value of labor power is a technical development under all modes of production. It takes N. hours labor to transform X into Y. Not sure how you can shake it out any it way.
>>2461279
>They are not landlords. They are citizens engaging in everyday simple equivalent commodity exchange. A prole who rents a book is not a booklord.
I do not appreciate "argumentation" by semantics. If you refuse to address the substance of the argument and instead attack the phrasing used to present it, you're a coward.
But file, let's have it your way. How would people who make a living off of renting out private property that they own benefit from a revolution that would result in the abolition of said private property ownership?
>>2461229>>2461279>nothing but preachy morals and zero actual analysisyeah i can see why people would confuse adam smith and mao :D
>>2461254
and what, pray tell, is the commodity being exchanged? The only part that could be considered commodity exchange would be housing maintenance/wear and tear. The time spent within the housing unit was not created by labor so it's not a commodity.
>>2461290 meant for
>>2461254>>2461299You're still hopped up on the autistic particulars of economics, and missing what is right in fucking front of you: why would professional property owners create a system where their source of income no longer exists?
>>2461307>You're still hopped up on the autistic particulars of economics, and missing what is right in fucking front of youwelcome to leftoidpol, where we pretend the most revolutionary class of propertyless reserveless immiserated wage workers includes neets, homeowners, managers, etc.
you have nothing to lose but your mortgage, 401k, etc etc
>>2461313>homeownerstrve,india is 86% petit-bourg,unlike germany and switzerland,the land of the truly propertyless
>>2461313>>2461307to the ACP developing socialism means replacing capitalist commodity production with socialist commodity production, capitalist landlords with socialist landlords, capitalist surplus value with socialist surplus value, etc.
>>2461533
I can't tell if this is a joke or not, solely because you called them the Communist Party.
>>2461038
Landlords are a form of capitalist but it is more similar to owning a small business than anything else. Homeowners are also capitalists in so far as they speculate on the value of the asset they sit on.
However, the contradiction is not between tenant and landlord. The contradiction is between worker and landowner.
>>2461564>However, the contradiction is not between tenant and landlord. The contradiction is between worker and landowner.The tenant is usually a worker. The landlord is usually a landowner. The venn diagram is not a circle but is it any surprise that people colloquially mean worker and landowner when they refer to tenant-landlord relations?
>>2461575I mean yes it's easy to see where the mistake comes from but it does lead to some important policy differences. In particular, bourgeois landlords are better in some ways than petty-bourgeois homeowners because bourgeois landlords densify housing more which in this analysis is similar to industrialization. Also subletting is just arbitrage/capitalism, so technically you don't have to own land to sublet a bunch of Airbnbs.
>>2461581Looking at the date on that video made me realize, have Haz and Hinkle done anything of note since 2024 ended? I don't mean internet shit, I mean things that would reach the mainstream media (worldwide, not just in the US)
>>2461038
>The tenant, on the other hand, is cheated only when he is compelled to pay for the dwelling above its value
i dont think marx or engels use "cheated" and rent comes from monopoly, in the case of land from natural monopoly. rent is unproductive, it doesn't create value, and appropriates surplus value from other places in the economy, like other capitalists or from wages. land is also not produced by labor so its not a commodity, it has a use-value but not a value. homes complicate the matter since they are a commodity but its still wrong to say "pay for the dwelling above its value" because the portion of value above the value of the home-commodity comes from rent not cheating.
>>2461638
Your ability to read English is about as bad as your ability to write it.
MAGAcommunism was predicated on the idea that the MAGA movement could be peeled away from Trump and harnessed by leftists to create a mass movement. As it turns out, most MAGA people like Trump, to the point where a significant chunk of them have openly admitted that they would still like him if it turned out he was a literal pedophile. And of the people who were anti-establishment and felt betrayed by him, most of them cut further right and got into guys like Nick Fuentes.
>>2461650It was very obvious too the intended grift was for Trump to lose the election, and then peel away his dissatisfied voters to join the ACPs "MAGAcommunism".
How this was going to work when "MAGA" considered Biden to be a communist hardliner in cahoots with the 'CCP', was never truly explained.
You can also see this in how Haz talked about the dems as their main enemy. But then Trump won anyway, and now neither side wants to have anything to do with the ACP and freaks like Haz. Neither online or offline.
Haz could have done some soul searching in the aftermath, but that implies he's capable of the sort of self-reflection necessary for critiquing his own conduct. Instead he's posing with guns looking like a dork, and leaning more heavily into the mentally unstable freak persona by bringing up how they're gonna conquer America like the Mongol hordes or something, and how America is Asiatic and autocratic, and Marxism is Islamic. You know very normal stuff that's very appealing to both libs, conservatives and ordinary workers.
I know we have ACP lurkers here (>>2461638) sticking out like a sore thumb,, but (you) guys should know you act and appear more like degenerate freaks than fat pink haired screaming college liberals at this point.
If you had any sense left, you'd ditch your gross cringe petite bourgeois failson "chairman" in favor of someone more respectable. I think even Hinkle would be an improvement, and considering he's a homophobic glowie, that's saying something.
>>2459233>Has he ever had a job in his life?He hasn't lol. He lives off daddy's (owner of a construction firm) dime and donations. The ACP's a farce (and a personality cult), and Haz is a joke.
He's not the first to run a grift like this, and sadly he won't be the last.
>>2461808>how they're gonna conquer America like the Mongol hordes or something, and how America is Asiatic and autocratic, and Marxism is Islamic. You know very normal stuff that's very appealing to both libs, conservatives and ordinary workers.With added Heidegger for good measure.
Which Haz even gets wrong.Vid related.
>>2459913>How does one escape this trap? Seems like getting all outraged about them just fuels the flames no?Not them, but on this imageboard by not getting wound up by inflammatory comments by Haz/ACP. but by promoting people who are doing good work, whether thats theoretical or practical.
>>2461828>promoting people who are doing good workACP are doing good work. They are small but I feel like their strategy of getting a good reputation in their communities will pay off. Besides, the communist businesses sounds like a "Socialism with American Characteristics" idea which might be something useful and novel. Of course there is the inevitable problem of attracting attention of the feds if you step out of your lane. But you never know if the country will experience a revolutionary situation from a military defeat or a centralized collapse. I think the hate of the ACP and Haz from this board stems from them rejecting the framing of modern leftism. It's kinda how the nice guy can't get the girl after doing everything society tells him to and the bad boy easily gets the girl by being unique and contrarian and so the nice guy ends up hating the bad boy. I think the only solution out of this is to approach the bad boy and ask him for help.
(Hazoid) >>2461990>Haz is a bad boyLebanese fingers caked with grease from door dash ordered slop typed this post
>>2461997In a political sense he is. Which is why he is being called out by the orthodox leftists (the normies/nice guys)
>>2462010In a political sense he lines up decently with mainstream conservative liberalism.
Eternally stuck in a highschool mindset is on brand for him tho.
>>2462012>communism>mainstream conservative liberalismEven AI can come up with a better answer than that.
>>2462014*communist in name only
>>2462014Conservatism is liberalism, retard lel
is there any theoretical difference between haz's worldview and national socialism? genuine question.
>>2462030>Non-racial>Actual communism>Support for AES countries>Being attacked by legit nazis and groypersI mean if you ignore everything, sure you can call them natsoc.
>>2462048>Non-racialThese people are obsessed with racialisimg themselves, it's a part of the LARP.
Tell me, what name is it that Adam refers to himself o line, again?
>>2462048>non-racialhaz has professed a belief in an "american race"
>Actual communismsmall businesses and landlords?
>Support for AES countriessuch as?
>Being attacked by legit nazis and groypersnot for being left-wing, but for haz not being right-wing enough
>>2461990>ACP are doing good workWhat good work? What are they doing that other parties are not already doing at a larger scale?
>I think the hate of the ACP and Haz from this board stems from them rejecting the framing of modern leftism.I hate them because they're idpol obsessed spergs. Swaping out radlib grievance politics for conservitard grievance politics doesn't address the underlying issue, which is that they care more about LGBT people than the class struggle.
>>2462048>Actual communismThe actual communism of the petite bourgeois smol business owners and landlords?
>>2461808>It was very obvious too the intended grift was for Trump to lose the election, and then peel away his dissatisfied voters to join the ACPs "MAGAcommunism". There needs to be a term for this, because it's not "fell for it again," but it's like some pseud thing that's very common among self-styled dissidents who get enthralled by ideology. Richard Spencer was like this. They will shill and vote for a politician while thinking they're playing 5D chess or going to "use" him somehow. It's some hyper-intellectualized thing that appears clever, and shh'yeah…. when Trump fails, his supporters will become Nazis and make Richard the Führer because he's so smart and clever and read Heidegger and a NEW EMPIRE WILL ARISE. Then his 19-year-old alt-right fan was like waow based. They might also delude themselves into believing the average MAGA guy has the same relationship to that as an ideology as they do to their meme ideologies, so they can substitute for it.
They think they're so fucking clever. In reality, it's DEEPLY IDIOTIC to do this play-pretend Leninism in relationship to American electoral politics. These institutions are designed from the get-go to fuck you over if you attempt to do this. They really underestimate the system and how deeply conservative it really is. It doesn't reward this. It punishes it. It's probably going to reward Gavin Newsom who is cynical enough to understand that what Democrats will want in 2028 is just winning and not caring about anything else until later. Then you look around at the MAGA coalition, there are people who are like "I thought Trump was gonna release the Epstein files" and huhhh whut (?) and then arrest Zelensky because he sucked Hunter Biden's cock or something. Man, I dunno, but it doesn't matter. What most of them care about is winning and Trump won. There's a guy who lives down the street from me who flies a Trump flag and he's still flying it.
>>2461990>It's kinda how the nice guy can't get the girl after doing everything society tells him to and the bad boy easily gets the girl by being unique and contrarianBut they don't get any chicks. I've seen the pics of their clubs. There's, like, no chicks. Maybe one who's also kind of spergy, becuase they're a gaggle of spergy-looking manlets and lanklets who look like Hearts of Iron gamers who don't know how to dress themselves. Then there's some 70-year-old Chinese guy who's also there for some reason. You know who on the left gets chicks? Hasan. He just blows everyone else out of the water. They come up to him. I guess this means Turks are racially superior chads. Or that he respects women and treats them well and doesn't try to undermine them.
Oh they got the Hegelian egirls for a second? They were kind of adjacent to that Dimes Square shit, but not even that, it was like the Off-Broadway version of Dimes Square. They look kind of busted too. Can you imagine.
>>2462219didn't Hasan rape/have consensual sex with a child prostitute in Germany? Am I imagining this?
>>2462236He visited some brothel with friends I think, but I don't think I've ever heard any proven confirmation anywhere that he had sex or that any of the prostitutes were children.
>>2461254
>Engels explains that renting a room is only "exploitation," in the liberal sense, if charged beyond market value, the same as the sale of any commodity. Rent below market value: the tenant is a bourgeois exploiter.
>Charging rent for a room or a house is not primitive but a simple everyday exchange in Communist society.
>They are not landlords. They are citizens engaging in everyday simple equivalent commodity exchange.
There is a lot in your post to respond to, but I think these three points are the most egregious and make it clear that you never read The Housing Question, or at least that you only tried to quote mine it without paying attention to who was saying what. Your position is the Proudhonist position that Engels mocks throughout the work, that being the idea that either making each worker a partial landlord, or the rentier a partial owner, is a completely insufficent means of solving the issue of landlordism and housing, and is merely a petty bourgeoisie "solution" that reframes the issues of workers as being an issue of not being able to be petty bourgeois themselves. Engels at no point defends landlordism, nor does he posit the idea that landlords are "exonerated" by means of not extracting surplus value from production, as their profiteering is but a "secondary evil" that results from a system of exploiting the resouce of labour power to aquire surplus value. They are profiteers that like the bourgeoisie do not work for their profits, but while the bourgeoisie extract surplus value, the landlord clips from the proles cost of reproduction and acquires wealth from speculation. It is a double press on the workers, the second swindle after the first swindle, a parasitical association. A con vs robbery.
<The surplus value produced in this fashion is divided among the whole class of capitalists and landowners together with their paid servants, from the Pope and the Kaiser, down to the night watchman and below. We are not concerned here as to how this distribution comes about, but this much is certain: that all those who do not work can live only from fragments of this surplus value which reach them in one way or another.
And
<The housing shortage from which the workers and part of the petty bourgeoisie suffer in our modern big cities is one of the numerous smaller, secondary evils which result from the present-day capitalist mode of production.
Engels goes on further to demand a more radical solution than Proudhon, that just having proles obtain private housing is not solution for the housing shortage, that there is plenty physical housing already, and that instead we should fight a struggle for the complete end of capitalism itself and for socially controlled housing.
>>2461577>>2461581Neither of these videos explain or refute the chat messages. No matter what way you construe it, it's either extremely childish and shows a high degree of immaturity at the highest levels, or evidence of them being opportunistic petty bourgeois reactionaries.
>It's been a while, but from what I remember Danny Shaw's big plan was to spin this chat leak as the ACP denoucing and betraying "China". What was specifically going in on that chat was a beef with the Guancha media network and I think they were anxious this could reflect attitudes of factions within the CPC itself. I don't care much for if it's the ACP denouncing or betraying them, because that would imply that China sees them as "allies" in the first place. I care that this is their reaction to one Chinese professor deciding to visit a different communist group as opposed to theirs. That doing so constitutes a full on meltdown, an unfounded slandering of the people they claim to support, and thinly veiled racism regarding "Chinese duplicity".
<From later comments it seems that there was a misunderstanding that they sorted out.What is there to misunderstand? "Oh we said all those things because we thought you visited a closely involved pro-chinese communist group and not us, but now that we've patched things up with one of your media networks, we actually didn't mean a single bit of it"? This is pathetic cope.
>>2461990>ACP are doing good work. They are small but I feel like their strategy of getting a good reputation in their communities will pay off. In what way? Doing that is no different then what every other communist party in the US does, even the PSL and the CPUSA do so.
>Besides, the communist businesses sounds like a "Socialism with American Characteristics" idea which might be something useful and novel. We do love "Socialism with imperial colonial characteristics".
>I think the hate of the ACP and Haz from this board stems from them rejecting the framing of modern leftism. It's kinda how the nice guy can't get the girl after doing everything society tells him to and the bad boy easily gets the girl by being unique and contrarian and so the nice guy ends up hating the bad boy. I think the only solution out of this is to approach the bad boy and ask him for help.Most of this board has an issue with Haz because he and his ilk tried to astroturf this board a long while back while some mod that was in on it attempted to maintain a dedicated thread for him and his streams, despite the clear rules and precedent regarding e-celebs. This is a weirdly sexually pathological example to make, and assumes a more grandiose position then the ACP actually holds. The ACP has done absolutely nothing novel that every other opportunist "communist" group in the past hasn't also done.
>>2462301>Most of this board has an issue with Haz because he and his ilk tried to astroturf this board a long while backDon't forget Haz himself came here more than a few times and just sperged out at the place
>>2462301>In what way? Doing that is no different then what every other communist party in the US does, even the PSL and the CPUSA do so.Not on any particular side here (not a yank), but do they? The kind of community service work the ACP does is basic bitch level stuff, but in my experience even doing this is a bridge too far for the grand majority of western left groups, who would rather just maintain the usual 'protest circuit' shit than actually go out into the community and provide service that is materially beneficial in some direct way. From my limited knowledge the ACP are cookers, but at least their members can claim they've made a direct impact on their local community over simply 'raising awareness' or 'showing solidarity' on such and such issue.
>>2462353I’m not convinced he stopped.
>>2461245>The value of labor power is a technical development under all modes of production. Be a bit more specific please. Im all eyeballs for reading honest contributions on the subject.
>It takes N. hours labor to transform X into Y. Ok but with what? Of the commodities the worker is able to buy with his wages? Yes, it does. but his wages, so the amount of commodities he is able to buy will vary according to the balance of class forces. If Haz's dad's workforce in the roofing firm get unionised Hazs dad may have to pay them more in wages, if they go on strike for better pay. But the value of the commodities they buy will depend on the socially necessary labour time that went into their production. But they'll be able to buy more commodities.
>Not sure how you can shake it out any it way. Labour power isnt the same thing as tabour time . The labour time spent by the worker at work produces more value than the value of his labour time. That's the basis of exploitation. Of course ,if the ACP's sctick is getting small businesses off the group ,(employing people), part of the profits going to Haz to keep him in the lifestyle to which he has become accustomed ,then youre not going to want to see it like this.
>>2462380 (me)
>produces more value than the value of his labour poweris what I should have typed
>>2462380I mean you can't democratically decide the value of labor power. You can democratically decide how much to use but after that it's all math
>>2462408I didn't say you "democratically decide" the value of labour power under capitalism. Its obv necessary to repeat this.i said you go on strike for better money. Better money buys more commodities , yes the value of these commodities is determined by the socially necessary labour that was necessary for their production), . But yes things like balance of class forces does effect the value of labour power- If you think im wrong here what is your reasoning ? How do you explain that ,for example, in post war Britain the value of labour power was greater than it is now in austerity Britain?
Under communism you will be able to democratically decide what happens to the surplus product. I E infrastructure projects which benefit everyone.
>>2462371>Not on any particular side here (not a yank), but do they The kind of community service work the ACP does is basic bitch level stuff, but in my experience even doing this is a bridge too far for the grand majority of western left groups, who would rather just maintain the usual 'protest circuit' shit than actually go out into the community and provide service that is materially beneficial in some direct way.For individual leftists? Yeah it's probably a bridge too far for them to bother, but most groups do in fact go out into the community to provide a service. Even CPUSA
anon
who I have my own disagreement with reports how his chapter gets involved in the community. If anything it's the opposite, groups will happily do some kind of public service, but when shit hits the fan, you rarely see them consiquentially engaging in protest in a way that isn't just providing side line support.
>From my limited knowledge the ACP are cookers, but at least their members can claim they've made a direct impact on their local community over simply 'raising awareness' or 'showing solidarity' on such and such issue.The issue is that ACP does even less. All they do is hold up signs and cooks, which I won't pretend some groups don't fall into too, but at least they'll go beyond awareness and involve themselves in a local struggle. ACP seems to be extremely picky on this front, among other things.
>>2454954>S4A is a backstabbing asshole and a theoryletwhose back did he stab
>theoryletnah
>what's wrong with having a youtube channelanon was literally responding to someone saying that they weren't going to watch a takedown of the ACP because "muh breadtube" and second anon was saying "by your logic ACP is also breadtube." can't you follow a fucking conversation? guess not.
I think Haz should just go all in on the communist landlords and get Patrick Bet David to shill the ACP as an MLM pyramid scam.
>>2462799Inshallah this happens because it would be fucking hilarious.
On a related note, as far as I'm aware, there's no major groups dedicated to trolling Haz, which is surprising to me. I feel like it would be really fun getting him to sperg out on stream, especially since he actively wants people to get into fights with him.
>>2462819>They might also delude themselves into believing the average MAGA guy has the same relationship to that as an ideology as they do to their meme ideologies, so they can substitute for it.God that's it. They really think other people are as caught up in their meme ideologies as they are, meanwhile you will have actual MAGA/Trump supporters state they think Trump was going to make gas and groceries cheaper, or that he was going to humiliate their enemies.
Spencer was always way too "intellectual" and high brow about his "race realist" patriotic conservatism or whatever.
Same goes for Haz, like as if zoomers today know who the fuck LaRouche was, as if they have any idea of what Heidegger was all about. But if you drop all that, all you see is a NEET dork who's trying way too hard at clout chasing.
Another thing that gives Haz the "ick" factor is that neither does he appear to have any friends, he seemingly has no hobbies or interests besides the ACP and his "struggle" either.
Like Trump might be a fat oligarch degenerate, but he still comes across as an actual "person". He likes to play golf, he has tacky tastes, he has kids, a family, a wife. Hassan has friends, likes to travel, works out. Etc.
Haz has… nothing. He supposedly has a girlfriend now but she's basically invisible. He doesn't have kids, a job, a small business, he's not a vet, he has no interests in anything other than pretentious monologues, self-promotion and "streaming". He's a freak. His whole shtick is immediately offputting to any "normie" because he lacks any of the other signifiers that identify him as a normal and relatable person.
Maybe the ACP is still salvageable. But not under Haz.
>>2462864I'm with chairman haz. Even if we are in line for food stamps, I ain't leavin my chairman out on the chair by himself.
>>2462919Well he is a handsome devil. My wife likes him.
>>2463207Aren't you like a solid foot taller than him?
https://xcancel.com/ACP_California/status/1964065112769384936#m
>The American Communist Party begins job training workshops! These trainings are meant to ground our cadre in their party work—to widen their appreciation for the working class and to learn and share skills they have to help develop themselves and their communities. The world is falling more and more away from the learned knowledge and practical skills that make this country great. The ACP is addressing these issues head-on to find solutions for the deindustrialization afflicting our country and setting the groundwork to prepare the members of its party to face these problems by rolling up their sleeves and putting in the work.https://xcancel.com/CDMorlock/status/1964584249841111103#m
>The Pan-Left Becomes Irate Over Basic Carpentry - This is the Way Comrades - Take Note ACP - We Win by Laboring This has got to be the height of the fascoid pan-left hysterics. In general, they have outed themselves as pure rentier capitalist shills over….a video where people go to a jobsite to learn basic carpentry?? They soy-out from across the spectrum is hilarious- Trots and Leftcoms and Councilcoms and Critical Theorists, Shitlibs and Redlibs, and every other kind of third camp bastion replicator is out in force absolutely malding over a tape measure! Why does this trigger them so much? Why does the pan-left act in unison saying out of the simplest of displays of proletarian "consciousness" that actual materializes itself? The answer is in the history of all of "Marxism": the tale of the east and the AES which created proletarian autarky as the realization of Materialism and the anti-Materialism of the west and it's ideological support of all aspects of capital - including hyper rent seeking activity, as the "real movement". The pan-left is basically the urban cosmopolitan and urban menial service class whose interests correspondent directly to their ruling masters. Their trajectory to "socialism" is through the western model of rents and credit, not the autarky of productive labor. They seek entrance through rentier sinecure, welfare, unproduction, unearned income, and being cut in on the IP rent scam- the realization of a debtor socialism. Yes, they are fascists with many extra steps. When the Bolsheviks declared debt jubilee and began to build their factories, that's when the collective western rentier oligarchy invaded. Not before. The October revolution was bloodless; the real Russian revolution was the civil war (in which 16 foreign armies invaded). So the act of grabbing a hammer and nailing into a board is a small stand in symbolizing this fundamental dialectical division of the west and the east, the 2nd international and the AES, and the current American manifestation of the re-proletariat vs. the menial service class. I say this is the way. Grab that hammer- this is the revolutionary thing- Communism is a weapon. It makes sense on multiple levels, and if we draw out the contradiction with this strategy, of ACP making and teaching how to make and doing something real, we show the pan-left out to be who they really are. We also mimic the independence that the Bolsheviks exemplified. We should follow ACP Socal's example and teach welding, carpentry, plumbing, manufacturing, CAD, engineering, production, robotics, CNC, 3D printing, and general "real" economy- it is the most revolutionary thing to do. It draws the height of the contradiction into broad daylight; the pan-left is the exemplification of the third camp, the third way, and the third positon - which is all the same exact thing. And yes wear a mask for the dust, especially when working with redwood- shit stings the lungs. >>2464770Love the unhinged reactions
>>2464770Honestly the least retarded thing they have done so far. Sadly its going to be ruined by some ego tripping leader sooner or later.
>>2464770>The world is falling more and more away from the learned knowledge and practical skills that make this country great.They're coming dangerously close to discovering a very uncomfortable truth!
>rentier capitalist shills>and the anti-Materialism of the west and it's ideological support of all aspects of capital - including hyper rent seeking activity, as the "real movement">They seek entrance through rentier sinecureWith all due respect, aren't you in the party that encourages its constituents to become "ethical landlords"? Gimmie a fucking break!
>>2464816That's the story of the ACP in a nutshell. Looking from the outside in, a lot of what they do is, in theory, good. But the party itself is staffed by insane petite bourgeois retards.
>>2464770Is the ACP currently the only US communist group offering job training, or do other parties also do this?
I ask because the ACP talks about themselves like they're the only ones doing what they do, when most of the time that isn't actually true.
>>2464830>[blue collar skills have] slowly fallen out of the knowledge base of a lot of people in this country due to deindustrializationGEE, I WONDER WHAT THE FUCK THIS COULD IMPLY ABOUT THE CLASS STRUGGLE IN THE US!?>But I think if you join the ACP, you'll get a little more experience with what a worker is doing day to day<Implying that the people joining tha ACP are not workers to begin with>So come join the ACP and learn to swing a hammer!I did this when I was like seven years old.
The ACP frustrates me so much because it does what it does well, but what it does is informed by a petite bourgeois American perspective of what "working class" is. The fact that they have to teach "blue collar skills" implies that 1. the party does not consist of blue collar people and is not recruiting blue collar people, and 2. that there is not a significant proletarian presence in the United States generally. But they don't understand any of this, because they're stuck on the class relations of the US as it existed in the 70s.
They have potential but the leadership is too caught up in memes.
A hardline ML anti imperialist democratic centralist party that divorces itself from liberal thought is the only way forward, if there even is one.
>>2464864Are you also one of these people that believes service and logistics workers aren’t proletarian? Or is it anyone that has full employment benefits in the US like a 401k or health insurance?
>>2464955Hey, I'm just following the ACP's definition!
>>2464864>I did this when I was like seven years old.As you should. The fatherless jokes write themselves for these clowns.
>>2462864>Haz has… nothing. He supposedly has a girlfriend now but she's basically invisible. He doesn't have kids, a job, a small business, he's not a vet, he has no interests in anything other than pretentious monologues, self-promotion and "streaming". He's a freak. It's a depressing thought that people who don't have anything can cling harder to an "ism" because it makes you feel like you're part this massive thing with lots of power when you're really just some freak. It's like people turning an ideology into their identity. It's highly freakish and paradoxical to do this with Marxism/communism as well. Like they quote Marx talking about the "real movement" but it strikes me that this refers to concrete struggles in society and not focusing on self-identifying as a "communist."
>>2464834>Is the ACP currently the only US communist group offering job training, or do other parties also do this?The Traditionalist Workers Party, which was an attempt at creating a Strasserist bonehead group, played up doing machinist training as a whole part of their thing. They also fetishized the hardhat / manual laborer. But some journalist who went out and interviewed them found that it was an aspirational thing and they never got it off the ground. So we'll see.
I wonder how a debate between Haz and Nick Fuentes would go.
>>2465009Holy shit I actually thought that guy on the right was Haz for a second based on the thumbnail.
>>2464864>The fact that they have to teach "blue collar skills" implies that 1. the party does not consist of blue collar people and is not recruiting blue collar peopleIt seems more like you making wild assumptions based on limited information. Like how are they teaching these blue collar skills if they have no blue collar workers that possess them?
>>2465139I'm not saying that there are zero blue collar workers in the party. I'm saying that the existence of something like this, as well as the way they talk about it, implies that the percentage of blue collar workers there is low enough for such a thing to be worth the party's time and resources, of which they don't have much because they are, objectively, a pretty small party.
Strikes are direct action
Baristas make commodities
Donald Trump is a zionist shill
Maga communism is zionist shilling even though they want you to forget
>>2465139no the assumption is highly astute, most blue collar people don't need to be taught their own skills by random college students/graduates or in haz's case somebody who lives off a trust fund
>>2465028The two greatest minds of the left in 2025, would love to see it
>>2461990>haz is a bad boyyes, and if he is too bad, his dad will cut him off and he will be destitute
>>2461638
this statement came years after they had been promoting, they promoted him longer than they have been pretending they didn't. Members have on different occasions claimed he wasn't a deep state agent, they still claim hes anti deep state, they denied his associations with epstein etc. Its ridiculous.
>>2465009The nazis were doing similar stuff. It's a more or less apolitical tactic to upskill people and make them useful in addition to psychologically entrenching them to each other which increases trust, cooperation, and engagement. There is the question of resentment and compensation when someone loses a finger or whatever from a table saw they were operating without pay.
https://odysee.com/@PatriotFront:a/FloridaHurricaneRelief:c >>2464770> ground our cadre in their party work—to widen their appreciation for the working class and to learn and share skills they have to help develop themselves and their communities.Kamala Harris liberalism lol
>>2465009>It's a depressing thought that people who don't have anything can cling harder to an "ism"nechayev's catechism states that it should be that way lol:
<The revolutionary is a doomed man. He has no personal interests, no business affairs, no emotions, no attachments, no property, and no name. Everything in him is wholly absorbed in the single thought and the single passion for revolution. And this guy deeply affected Lenin despite him not being a communist.
<THE RISE OF MAGA COMMUNISMhttps://showinfrared.substack.com/p/the-rise-of-maga-communismThis asshole needs an editor. But as I'm trying to read it I wonder if the verbosity isn't the point. I'm skimming through it and I get the impression that so much is getting thrown at the reader that it's trying to overwhelm you with unfamiliar terms and things that sound or might be true enough on their own that whether or not the overall coherence of the thing doesn't matter because by the time they've read it all the reader has forgotten most of it. The ultimate effect is that the reader probably remembers reading a bunch of things they kind of understood or mostly agreed with after having mentally discounted all the stuff they didn't get.
>In the end the political spectrum, for all intensive purposes, is one dimensional. Many attempts have been made to make better and more accurate model of political difference. Yet all of these fail, and are inevitably doomed to failure for the same reasons that the original was, because they share the same metaphysical premises. In attempting to devise an impartial representation of political antagonism, ones representation is doomed to itself becoming partial to it. What political spectrum is the political spectrum itself on? An inherently absurd and paradoxical question.
>A political spectrum is a spatial continuity, whereas political antagonism implies an abrupt and acute discontinuity, both in form and content, affecting - twisting, bending and altering even its own representation. The first step in being able to understand the true forces defining politics is to understand that politics, that is modern politics, is its own force. The establishment of universal modern statehood, culminating in liberal globalism, is a force of its own kind, a force which corresponds to the history of the bourgeoisie as a class. This force neither bases itself in any particular agential (rational, moral, etc.) intention (like the pursuit of power), nor any primal compulsion (like the ‘nazbol vortex’, or Hobbesian wild instincts).
>Such a force is rather an immanent contradiction. An immanent contradiction is an antagonism, a paradox, a contradiction, etc. not between two discrete things, or two discrete elements, but a type of pure difference itself. The story of modernity is the story of pure difference, and the paradoxical attempts by which it is given form thereof, from German idealist philosophy, French revolutionary politics to English industrial capitalism. Kant’s transcendental aesthetic, or the a priori pure forms of intuition are divided into space and time because the singular object they have in common is pure discontinuity, difference, or contradiction. Capital has as its object and its basis pure discontinuity, or the alienation between the worker and his means of production. Finally, modern politics has as its object pure discontinuity - between revolutionary change and order. It just goes on and on like this. It's a nightmare.
>>2465419It deeply affected me when I was first introduced to it on leftypol.
>>2465436>for all intensive purposesImo that's kind of a glaring mistake to make when you're talking about Kant and Hobbes and Heidegger and immanent contradiction and shit.
>>2465428I can always tell it's you because you're so obviously ESL. Where are you from? Why are you so interested in a retarded fake political party from a country you don't live in?
>>2465436>>2465447There's nothing funnier than an idiot who thinks he's a genius.
>>2465448It's weird because it does have the feeling of being profound, or at least "philosophical." Like it has the sort of density of terms and references that makes it feel like some big brain shit. Reading Marx is pretty dense too, but he feels totally different from this, more meticulous maybe. Like when I read Marx it feels like I'm being walked step by step through a complicated process but by the end of it there isn't any mystery. Reading this on the other hand feels more like one of those "shaggy dog" jokes, where you're just being laden with more and more bullshit and in the end the joke is on you.
>>2465436pretty sure this thread in /dead/ is also a copypasted tweetstorm from H*z
https://leftypol.org/dead/res/5617.html >>2465457Oh, I was wondering why this was written like this
https://showinfrared.substack.com/p/marxism-is-not-woke?
It's like two hundred fucking tweets, Jesus.
<Proving beyond possible doubt that James Lindsay and other rightists are fundamentally wrong about Marxism, and that Marxist theory in the West is meaningless without the aid of Dugin and Heidegger’s thinking. >>2465471
what country are you from, larouche jr?
>>2464816I doubt this idea came from Haz, but I'm convinced Haz will try to ruin it or embarrass everyone in his party even when they do make good efforts.
That said, as usual there is the cringe pretentiousness. They can't simply state they want to help party members, and list the benefits. They have to do this thing were they act like they're leading Bolsheviks in 1920.
Like for fuck sake, can't they try talk like normal people? Why do they have behave like freaks all the time?
>>2465009>>2465419The contrast between Lenin and Haz is fascinating. Lenin still had a personal life, he loved his wife, he liked women in general, board games, socializing, liked to have a beer with friends, loved literature, liked pets. He was also a very humble person as remarked by Stalin.
Haz on the other hand is Nechayev's ideal. And he's a freak because of it. Completely uncanny the way some tech CEOs like Zuckerberg and Thiel come across as. Worse than that even. Also extreme boastful and full of himself..
This is a guy who seemingly loves no one, has no interests except for his movement, doesn't like anyone, has no friends, and has apparently never shown any affection to anyone not even an animal.
I think people like Haz also really underestimate how "ick" this makes you to to anyone who hasn't made communism or whatever movement they identify with their whole being basically. ('ism as identity)
And the tolerance for this also tends to go down with age. Because once you get to a certain stage in your life, especially when there are kids involved, this freakishness becomes even more intolerable. You can sort of accept an awkward 18 year old behaving like this because they're probably insecure and lack life experience and need to go out a bit more, but this disappears once people reach their 30s and 40s, and start having families of their own, and all they see is a freakish cult leader who at best is pitied as a deranged person, and at worst seen as a danger to both them and their families.
>>2465529
S4A opposes both Wolff and Larouchite Nonsense
>>2465544>liked to have a beer with friendsLenin very famously was a teetotaler and during the Civil war ordered the cheka to shoot prostitutes who were getting the red army drunk
>>2465652>during the Civil war ordered the cheka to shoot prostitutes who were getting the red army drunkI remember anons discussing this letter, there's very little proof of it actually ever existing and the translation of it is kind of all over the place.
>>2465654https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/aug/09gff.htm First published, but not in full, in 1938 in Bolshevik No. 2. Sent to Nizhni-Novgorod. Printed in full from a photo-copy of the original.
Source: Lenin Collected Works, Progress Publishers, [1976], Moscow, Volume 35, page 349.
>>2464770>>2464864>>2464816I'm in the trades, and this is dumb as hell. At best it's subsidizing ready labour, at worst it's refusing to work with the working class as is and trying to "create their own" with existing party members. Not all workers are going to be workers in the trades, and you're not going to convince any in the trades but just training party members. You have to build inlines with existing workers, you to talk and understand their issues, you have to inform them of the solutions you believe to work, and you have to build solidarity between them and other workers in other industries. This whole thing reeks of tailism, and a middle class romanticization of the trades that turns it's nose up at that vast majority of other workers that operate in fields that don't meet their criteria.
>>2465655>>2465662>Let me post the letter and it's source to disprove you about the letterI'm aware of the letter, the issue is that the event in question never happened, that the letter was never shown to be sent, that it only became published way after the event would have taken place, and that there is a vagueness in regards to if "prostitute" is literal or is simply a general "slur" he's using. Deport is also put right before prostitute, so it's unsure if it's "deport and shoot the prostitutes" or "deport the prostitutes and shoot the officers".
https://joanofmark.blogspot.com/2012/09/notes-on-lenin-russian-civil-war-red.html?m=1 >>2465652He did drink alcohol early on. And I was surprised too learning about that. (Considering he tried to ban drinking at one point after the revolution)
But the point isn't that Lenin was a hedonistic libertine drunk, it's that he wasn't a puritan ascetic saint. He ultimately remained "banal" in his personal life. And it's exactly this that made him amicable and approachable instead of a freak like Haz.
Like I've noticed that even when Haz does go out, it's all in order to promote his "brand". He doesn't seem to have any interesting stories from the time before he became the Chairman of the ACP. I've never even heard of the guy cracking a joke, or having fun
with people, instead of making fun of them.
Or you know stuff like "I was hanging out with friends a few weeks ago and were discussing [some story from our college days/latest capeshit/something we overheard on a night stroll]". It's all ACP, or internal drama, or twitter drama.
I mean, this is a guy on record stating he doesn't even like sex and it makes him feel "sick". He's a freak. He pretends to be Lenin, but he isn't even close.
>>2465669>>2465671As a Russian speaker the word for "prostitute" can be used simply as a slur. Which the blogpost you linked correctly points out.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/aug/09gff.htmAnd the original sounds like it is used in this way too.
>>2454325Nothing is more libtarded than than socialists or communists who unironically use the phrase "cultish".
To the worm eaten brain of the liberal mind everything that is unfamiliar is a cult
So to them Soviet Union was a "cult". Dprk is a "cult". All forms of nascent communism inside imperialist society are "cults" because they reject liberal formalism.
This faggot would probably be open mouthed at Communists singing internationale.
"OMG they're doing it! They're doing the cult!"
>>2465684>This faggot would probably be open mouthed at Communists singing internationale. "OMG they're doing it! They're doing the cult!"Dude, he's literally an anti-revisionist Hoxhaist. He's not calling it a cult because of "liberal formalism", it's because they're acting less like principled communists and more like e-celeb figure worshipers, like 70s-80s liberal-esc "cults".
>>2465671
In Russian.
>>2465684> Nothing is more libtarded than than socialists or communists who unironically use the phrase "cultish".Do you like spanks, anon?
>>2465684>So to them Soviet Union was a "cult". Dprk is a "cult". All forms of nascent communism inside imperialist society are "cults" because they reject liberal formalism. what's with the obsession with defending degenerated states that are either dead or have abandoned revolution completely
>>2465788What on earth are you talking about?
>>2465529Weren't you shitting all over S4A earlier ITT?
What country are you from?
>>2465684Hi Haz.
>>2465674It seems the document is fake. The language betrays it. Lenin unironically uses the term
>dictator>organize mass terrorThis sounds like something a modern liberal would invent.
Here are examples of the word dictator being used:
https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/search?query=%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2+&commit=%D0%98%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8CIt is usually a technical word and used with relation to non-communist entities.
Anyways, you can search for yourself and not find anything. The document probably never existed.
https://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/docs/5-poisk >>2465684The concept of a "cult" is a liberal pathologisation of agency, they just can't accept that people willingly choose to join or form organisations they disagree with, and assume they must have gone under "brainwashing" or "cult programming"
This is literally the legacy of the korean war and MKUltra, look up the techniques of "professional" cult de-programmers and tell me they would be human rights abuses in any other context.
>>2465829>The concept of a "cult"Has existed for far longer than the United States.
>they just can't accept that people willingly choose to join or form organisations they disagree withI dislike the ACP primarily because Haz is an infantile autistic petite bourgeois freak who sits around all day pretending to be Andrew Tate but communist, and surrounds himself with other retards who act the same way. I have my problems with the actual party program (particularly the bit about using AI for economic planning), but if Haz and friends weren't there, I would be much more sympathetic to their goals. Hell, in this hypothetical universe, there's a good chance that I might have joined them.
Anyway, we call the ACP a cult because it has strong parallels to the likes of the LaRouche movement, something that you should never want to be compared to.
>>2465884I don't disagree with any of that, and it doesn't contradict what I said.
>>2465885The point is that our issue with the ACP isn't its ideology, it's the people running it. We call it a cult because how the hell else would you describe it?
>>2465888Wreckers, Opportunists, etc
>>2465917We're not trying to be academically rigorous, we're just trying to insult them.
>>2465664>At best it's subsidizing ready labour, at worst it's refusing to work with the working class as is and trying to "create their own" with existing party members.While I don't think they're at the stage of ordering their members to get certain jobs, I'm reminded of the SWP's "industrial turn" (and I think there were other groups that did this) back in the 1970s. Like, they had this idea that there were too many students and other non-workers (by a narrow definition) in the party, so they decided to get industrial jobs, and put heavy pressure on their own members to go work in factories. And at some point down the line the plan was to organize the workers at the factories.
It doesn't sound like a bad idea in the abstract, but ironically in the SWP's case they actually began losing people who went into industry. Why? Because all of a sudden those cadre now had more income, as well as more demanding work (compared to undemanding, low-paid clerical or even fast-food type jobs), which meant less time to devote to politics. Also there wasn't much politically to do industry despite their belief otherwise. Like you could "talk socialism" or shoot the shit with your coworkers but it kind of petered out as they were getting into 30s. People tend to settle down.
Then on the flip side, the more they lost members this way, the more pressure they placed on members who hadn't yet gone into industry but didn't want to for personal reasons (because they had other careers), so they left. So they were hemmorrhaging members on both ends.
>>2465829>The concept of a "cult" is a liberal pathologisation of agency, they just can't accept that people willingly choose to join or form organisations they disagree with, and assume they must have gone under "brainwashing" or "cult programming"If you've spent any time around the American left, you'll invariably run across people who follow around batty cult leaders with a grandiose view of themselves. There's rarely more than a few hundred of them in any particular group but what they tend to have in common is extreme hyperactivism, subordinating the individual to some Great Genius or Divine Master that prevents independent thinking, and a shared belief that vertically accumulating more cadres will somehow build a "communist" party to lead a revolution. This also seems more common in the United States for whatever reason. The ACP is more online but there are some that have been around since the 1970s that can still have a few hundred members toiling away with nothing to show for it and are totally obscure to younger people because they're not online.
>>2466092
No, cults are not real. Those mentioned are not any different to Christianity or Judaism. I only butted into this thread because I saw discussion about cults taking place, I actually don't care about ACP at all.
>>2465684Not every small group or party is a cult. I can think of parties smaller than the ACP who don't operate on these "cult" mechanics.
The difference between a "cult" and just another movement/union/whatever is how members relate to it, and its leader.
The ACP orbits Haz. Haz decides what is tolerable and what isn't. If Jackson Hinkle says something unhinged which reflects badly on the membership, it doesn't matter because Hinkle backs Haz. There's no vote on the party program. Haz is not responsible anyone but himself. If Haz declared himself the Messiah and argued his MAGAcommunism is divinely inspired, everybody here would agree the ACP is a cult.
>>2466100This feels like a cop-out. Especially as Falun Gong isn't structured like much of modern Christianity and heavily revolves around its still living grandiose founder. Scientology and Jehova's Witnesses are a different kind of "cult" in that they encourage members to ostracize outsiders and defectors. Haz has been moving into this direction as well for years.
>>2466100 So then what was Heaven's Gate?
>>2466273I can assure you that the ayy lmaos hiding behind comets are a hard material reality.
>>2466242
>The Communist Party
Which one?
>operates by democratic centralism
To be honest, I don't know too much about how the ACP's political system works. Do you mind explaining?
>and thusly demands strict adherance to the Party.
Is it to the party or to Haz?
>This is good.
Why?
>All liberals have called all Communist Parties "cults" since beginning of time.
I find a claim like this hard to believe.
>These mounting liberal accusations speak volumes of the Communist Party's threat to them.
What "mounting liberal accusations"? Yeah, people talk about Haz here, but that's because we run in similar circles with him and his followers. I can't think of any place besides Leftypol where I've seen the ACP mentioned directly.
National Socialist American Worker's Party
>>2462864>Haz has… nothingIt is even sader because he used to have something. When he started streaming he was in law school and lived in an apartment his parents paid for. This man could have been a lawyer and lived a very comfortable upper middle class life and he threw it all away for this.
>>2462864>Spencer was always way too "intellectual" and high brow about his "race realist" patriotic conservatism or whatever. yeah wasnt there a leaked audio or something where he complained about most of his followers were mentally ill losers and octoroons or something.
>>2466454
Posted it again award
>>2466463
>google democratic centralism.
That doesn't explain how the ACP's internal system works. You might as well have replied with "meritocracy".
>The executive board is the Party
Yes, but that doesn't answer the question. In practice, is it loyalty to the party or loyalty to Haz?
>Liberals accuse Stalin Mao etc. of cult of personality is levied against the [American] Communist Party today.
>All of the very same slander and other futile, negative criticisms used against the Communist Party today in this thread was used by liberals against Communists everywhere throughout history.
By that logic, Hitler was also a communist.
>and other futile, negative criticisms
I didn't know the Bolsheviks ran a job training program with only 200 members, nor that people criticized them for it.
>>2466498
if those guys consider themselves the communist party, danm they are doing a horrible job considering they uphold extremely distorted and reactionary views that contradict with marxism, duginist freak
I had a dream today, haz was at my house, with his trans girlfriend. he also had a couple little homunculus lenins following him around.
haz helped out with the chores, and then started coyly hinting that he's going to get pegged by his trans girlfriend. he said she hasn't had bottom surgery yet, but will be using a strap-on anyway, because "it's less gay".
>>2467802>What makes these faggots so special?Probably distinctive personalities, and the promise of understanding stuff no one else does: this would explain Haz's horrible mashing together of disparate philosophies. I dont know if this makes it all a cult, or not.
Also, there's thinking about what else is out there. There was a thing on twitter a while ago about the DSA. About their activists getting burnt out. Basically, anyone who volunteers for anything they seize upon and overwork. I think a lot of political groups are like that. When its combined with strategy that doesn't work (supporting reformist political candidates who backside, like Bernie throwing in his support in for Hillary Clinton ) people then quit entirely. S4A said it in a recent video about comments on Mamdani. They dont get radicalised from that, they just get disillusioned entirely and quit any type of activism. They get "grill pilled"
Not even saying all reformism is bad. Better wages and conditions are better.
So i think people support haz's group for similar reasons to why people watch contrapoints. What they achieve is dubious. But is entertainment if you like them, so you dont feel you're sacrificing your time, plus you feel in a special club.
Maybe political groups in general just need to stop burning people out. Get more people doing less. Maybe ask people just for one hour a week of their time.
>>2469197You're missing my point.
These people, objectively,
aren't important. The party is tiny, and in terms of online presence, the only member of any actual note is Hinkle, who isn't even that big in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't live in America anyhow. In the US itself, it's a microscopic group of nobodies. Why is this even on anyone's radar to begin with?
Bumping because I want an answer to
>>2467802 and
>>2469683>>2469848Why won't anyone reply to me?
>>2471104because Charlie Kirk just got his neck blown out by a sniper
>>2471164I was wondering what he would say. This more or less confirms to me that Hinkle, and by extension his lapdogs, have no serious interest in the revolution or any kind of revolutionary activity. Obviously I already knew but still, it feels…something? to have absolute proof of the fact.
>>2471164Someone should ask him what he thinks of 9/11
>>2471254we need to make a note of whos mourning this on the anti-imperialist-multipolarist-left
>>2471164>>2471254I'm sure things will stabilize and everything will be fine and they'll be ok
>>2471164>>2471254Someone should make a compilation and post it here
>>2471164Yeah just pray for the Zionist genocide enthusiast to get better.
>>2471698Hinkles saying he was about to defect to anti-zionism and he had some dirt on the Epstein.
this is the power of maga communism
>>2471184>>2471254Adventurism never works
>>2471757It's amazing how obviously controlled opposition he is
>>2471963You meant to say violence never works, because you fags call all violence that happens in a range you could realistically be in "adventurism". And violence most definitely does work.
>>2471963If it didn't work Kirk would still be alive.
>>2471964Hinkle is a fed. He also is 40 years old and the real Hinkle died in a surfing accident. This is 100% cuntfirmed.
>>2476115proof that tyler was a fascist after all
>>2476115So much for thier adherence to democratic centralism.
>>2476115No way that is real.
>>2476334Now they're not even trying to make it credible.
do you think haz watches tyler1?
>>2476434Only in Amerikkka could news anchors pretend that homeless people have been given billions of dollars in aid and they just "refused" the help. The only billions that have been handed out are the billions of subsidies to corporations.
>>2454432>revolutionaries are conservativeThey historically have been. Some more some less. Look at soviet union. Don't pretend that revolutionaries have been some anything goes treehuggers and free love types.
>LGBT are degenerate imperialistsI still remember when US was pulling out of Afghanistan and people were making the point that US should actually stay and keep bombing because leaving hurts women and sexual minorities more. Same with bombing Iran. Same "communists" and "leftists" were arguing that Iran actually should be bombed/disarmed/destroyed because they hate gays and are lead by reactionaries and a regime change could allow more progressive forces to take over. So yeah "LGBT activists" and other such types are either a value neutral or a poison pill in a movement.
LGBT movement is still full of liberals that it's not even funny. Same with greens, animal rights movement, etc… It's not that the causes are inherently bad or reactionary, or they should be supported, but the movements themselves and half of these people being either middle class radlib idiots obsessed only with their specific cause and only as a second priority they care about building a working class movement and would be much happier in some succdem or liberal group or are outright wreckers.
>>2476434>lethal injection because your homelesshang this scum now
>>2479801>They historically have been. Look at the soviet unionOh you mean the guys who were the first to give rights to women, allow abortion, shot the patriarchy in the knee, depenalize homosexuality, seriously attack religions and nationalism etc
>>2479812Are you equating these to a stances that modern radlibs take?
Also your take is simplistic. Homosexuality was legal for like a decade and only because the criminalization was dropped when tsarist criminal law was scapped. Also I would say soviet union gave states of their own to many previously subject people's of the empire. If you mean more like attack on national chauvinism then yes.
>>2479801>They historically have been. Some more some less. Look at soviet union. Don't pretend that revolutionaries have been some anything goes treehuggers and free love types. I think it's more that revolutionaries lived in austere conditions and their lifestyles reflected that. They tended towards asceticism. They were a bit like the YPG/YPJ in a lot of places (and those guys more or less emerged from Maoism or Maoist-inspired movements in the 1970s). That's a different thing from conservatism in the sense that women should serve men and traditional patriarchial relations are good, but I've seen ACP types actually say that is good. An interesting thing about Mao BTW is that he was not so ascetic compared to other communist leaders. He had four wives over the course of his life including a famous actress.
There's also an interesting thing in traditional communist aesthetics about minimizing gender differences. It's often stylistically androgynous or unisex. (Men and women wearing similar utilitarian clothes.) But right now, there's a whole trend in Western culture towards the opposite of this, with more stressing different appearances between men and women. Women wearing their hair long and wearing sundresses, and men wearing beards with their hair shaved on the sides.
>I still remember when US was pulling out of Afghanistan and people were making the point that US should actually stay and keep bombing because leaving hurts women and sexual minorities more.Shortly before 9/11 there was a CNN documentary about the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan showing the Taliban executing a woman in a stadium with a rifle. Okay a public execution is a bit primitive but actually that woman had murdered her husband so it was a bit more complicated. Then after 9/11 happened, that documentary suddenly got a new life and was an important part of how that war was sold to the liberals in American society. But it wasn't like the Bush administration took America to war because of LGBT rights.
Right now, there's a whole trend with the Trump administration dumping this stuff because they think it gets in the way of America being even MORE warlike, they view it as a distraction from warfighting. I have to say, I doubt military bases having Pride month events for LGBT soldiers is going to make the U.S. less warlike, but there are a lot of people online who seem to have convinced themselves that Obama-era liberalism – where you have some woke flavor added into the chemical mixture that goes inside the bombs – is like the default position of U.S. imperialism. Charlie Kirk for example had made a career saying "the stuff that others are too afraid to say" (or however these conservatives articulate it) like it's some subversive thing, but it's really just reheated Bush-era stuff.
>>2479833>Also your take is simplistic. Homosexuality was legal for like a decade and only because the criminalization was dropped when tsarist criminal law was scapped.I'd say the main thing the USSR was ahead of compared to everyone else was in women's rights. Okay there was some conservatism about this during Stalin's time with more emphasis about women being mothers (in addition to being workers) but they kept the liberalized divorce laws which was still ahead of … everyone? You can also see stuff in Soviet films (like Osterns) about the depiction of women under traditional patriarchial rule in Central Asia that might surprise you, like Red Army frontier troops fighting some warlord with a harem of burka-clad women and coming across them being like WTF, like bruh these women are slaves. I have a feeling some of this would be thought of by leftists now as colonialistic or something.
But I have to tell you I find the contemporary left discourse about this annoying, because the subject of Stalin comes up and the only thing anyone want to say he did wrong was not liking gays. But I'm gay and I don't care about that, not because I agree with Stalin but because it simply wasn't a thing people talked about back then, at least in polite company. (Lesbians were a bit more tolerated.) Like you can read some homophobic jokes among communists in their private letters, but it wasn't part of the public discourse. I'm talking about 1920s, 1930s, 1940s here. It wasn't on the agenda. That said, I have zero interest in any group that wants to go back to the 1930s. There were major changes (economically, technologically) that enabled a cultural revolution of sorts in the post-war era that began in Western countries and spread to other parts of the world (rather unevenly), and that was good for LGBT people because it eroded traditional family structures and broke down a lot of taboos. If communists are going to be like "actually we're for the bourgeois family ideal circa 1925" then I'll go with the liberals or succdems where, you're right, I'll be much happier.
>>2479873>If communists are going to be like "actually we're for the bourgeois family ideal circa 1925"Let's be honest only the stupid ussr cargo cultists do that. The soviet union was born as the most progressive sate in the world because they strived for the liberation of the proletariat and used cutting edge science and social theory to do that, and the future communist revolutionaries will do the same and the conservatards will seethe again
>>2479850didn't ho chi minh also have crazy sex
>>2479951>Let's be honest only the stupid ussr cargo cultists do that. Yeah I'm being somewhat rhetorical. Also you remind of the movie Reds where Warren Beatty interviewed some Americans who knew John Reed (they were old af by the early 1980s) and one woman was still scandalized that the reds had sex before marriage. That was considered crazy-woke by the standards of 1920. At least that here in the United States. I don't know about Russia, it's a very complex and unique society with its own history.
>>2479873>I have a feeling some of this would be thought of by leftists now as colonialistic or something.well NATO does use the same rhetoric to justify regime change, occupation, resource extraction, and strategic bombing. So they're just backwards projecting the USSR's ideologically motivated liberation of women with NATO's strategically motivated """liberation""" of women.
You also saw this rhetoric with people like HRC saying Gaddafi's female soldiers were really just a harem of kidnapped women, etc.
>>2480023Right. I'd just be cautious about seeing the liberation of women as such as a bad thing, or "Western" or liberal or whatever. I see that a lot nowadays.
At any rate, a term I'm going to use more is "illusion of rupture." Like there's been a whole trend of conservatives appearing radical when they say women should go back into the kitchen Andrew Tate style. It seems like a radical break from the status quo, and then you have "communists" who try to tail that, but how much is that really changing anything to begin with. It's more like an attempt at conservative restoration but it's totally compatible with the status quo and can just as easily be recuperated and sold back to people. Or more rigid gender roles. But that's also the general trend right now, and the wealth of the richest 1% has grown even greater in 2025. Not that one causes the other. But woke is dead and the rich are still getting richer, that's still the law of the land.
>>2479873>That said, I have zero interest in any group that wants to go back to the 1930s. There were major changes (economically, technologically) that enabled a cultural revolution of sorts in the post-war era that began in Western countries and spread to other parts of the world (rather unevenly), and that was good for LGBT people because it eroded traditional family structures and broke down a lot of taboos. If communists are going to be like "actually we're for the bourgeois family ideal circa 1925" then I'll go with the liberals or succdems where, you're right, I'll be much happier.Regarding what you said about the post WW2 cultural revolution that started in the west. It's interesting this is so controversial with the more socially conservative communists because Engels and Marx always said that the historically progressive role of the bourgeoisie was not only to socialize the production process (though keeping the profits and means of production for themselves) but to destroy feudal patriarchal relations. Engels even said that German antisemitism was a byproduct of capitalism not being developed enough. And Marx said that no mode of production is completely destroyed before it has fulfilled its purpose. If destroying MVH FAMILY and MVH TRADITION is the historical role of the bourgeoisie, and they aren't done doing it yet, then that process has to be sped along so we can be done with capitalism. And I say this as a cishet moid with a spouse and child. I love my family but I don't view the family unit itself as
permanently historically necessary, even if it served an important and necessary historical role. It's an artifact. Eventually my kid will grow up and not need me anymore. Eventually humanity will grow up and no longer need the family unit itself. Family, private property, and the state are all superstructural byproducts of the relations of production. When history moves past these, anyone who clings on to them for dear life quickly becomes reactionary especially if they're not dependent on them for survival any longer.
>>2480027>Right. I'd just be cautious about seeing the liberation of women as such as a bad thing, or "Western" or liberal or whatever. I see that a lot nowadays.Of course, that shit is braindead
>>2479812also the first to implement vast positive discrimination programs
>>2479833>obsessed with lgbtthey were still extremely progressive for their time, its your take that is so simplistic and straight up wrong you can say it is retarded
>>2454303>vanguard party of the proletariat>doesnt even consider trade unions in its strategyabsolute loser
>>2476115>>2476334Its Hazoids trying to promote their party through notoriety.
>The ACP (aka people even chuds on /pol/ have never heard about) totally killed Charlie Kirk! >You should watch the live stream of our Great Lea- I mean the vile communist scum known as Haz-Al-Din! >>2480157>they were still extremely progressive for their time, its your take that is so simplistic and straight up wrong you can say it is retardedWhat I'm asking if you have a view that sees progressivims or appearance of it as an virtue in itself, not in the context of a socialists movement. Then you equate the faux progressivism of modern radlibs with that of the soviets.
>>2480628Are faux leftists who support bombing of third world countries for not being woke enough "emancipatory for the proletariat"?
>>2480628You do know that the soviets shut all of that down in the Stalin era right? They said that shit was getting in the way of communism and didn't do anything useful. They then proceeded to go to traditional gender roles + women working and sexuality was deemed a private matter. The USSR was not this paragon of wokeism radlibs make it out to be. It's more like someone trying something new, then abandoning it and going with the status quo.
>>2483009That shit stalin did 20 years after the revolution was revoked after his death so yeah besides his reactionary sperg out the USSR was a woke radlib country for most of its existence
>>2483018>spergNo it wasn't revoked. The USSR retained all the criminalizations of the stalin era. Are you retarded? You can just google article 121 that was repealed only in 1993. And also, if you think the Corn Lord era completely broke with Stalin, wait till you hear about the Brezhnev era which partially rehabilitated Stalin.
USSR was woke radlib only from 1922-1929 and from 1987-1991
>>2483021uygha Krutschev made new laws allowing workers more things regarding marriage, divorce, and abortion to reverse Stalin spaz out, he also persecuted the christfags again
>>2483027And then brezhnev came and undid that except for the abortion (which even if legal was publicly stigmatized like modern smoking). Why are you so desperate to uphold the USSR as a bastion of wokeism when it still was a patriarchal society. You think under your worldview russia would look like sweeden but oh hey, its super conservative. And dont give me that bullshit about the 90s when the 90s liberalized fucking child prostitution and other disgusting shit. Czechia is very atheist but anticommunist, looks like they only kept atheism from the KSČ era. I also should mention that even things like a wife giving blowjobs to her husband were viewed as perversions and licking pussy was the sign of a cuckold (similar to that sopranos storyline). Im a social liberal but i hate when people bring up the USSR as an example. It was a deeply racist and socially reactionary country. Sure the government preached brotherhood of nations to the world but the people and politicians on an everyday level were racist reactionaries who used slurs and stereotypes more than anyone else. Someone should bring up that soviet police ethnicity board as example. You should talk to afghan war vets, or angola war vets theyll tell you exactly what they felt about those places. Racist drivel but hey we were fighting the pindosy (americans).
>tldr the USSR was for most of its existence deeply conservative and not woke. If anything it was the opposite of woke. >>2483040>tldr the USSR was for most of its existence deeply conservative and not woke. If anything it was the opposite of woke. no country throughout most of the cold war and before would qualify as woke by today's standards, by those day's standards they were pretty woke lmao
>>2455903>Notice how the ACP has to characterize fascism in terms of vibes and ideologybecause short-form video addicted teens are his target audience. That's the easiest way to communicate to them
>>2484211boomer conservative relatives send me short form slop more than younger relatives do. the brain rot is not just generational
I am watching a haz stream of him analyzing richard spencer trolling jackson for being unable to define communism.
I finally understood why haz is hated so much. Here are the reasons imho
>Pesudism
he pretends to be an intellectual, but he is just an average retard who uses fancy words and long sentences that never end
>Ultra coping
He cannot call the sky blue and need to complicate a pretty obvious screw up/mistake. He needs to obfuscate these problems to such a degree that he pilpuls out of it
>No true beliefs
He doesn't believe in shit, all he cares about is optics and aesthetics and he sucks at both. All he ends up doing is creating a cult with its own brand that normies search for to stay away from.
>Annoying voice and lack of charisma
He has that caleb maupin voice but less buzz, still the brain hurts and only when he rants does it sound good. Any time he tries to aura farm his charisma, it looks stupid. When he poses he looks like a legit gorilla that escaped from the zoo.
>He is just fucking retarded
Let's be real, the guy is a total dumbass. He cannot explain things succinctly and simply. Fucking nicky fuentes does a better job and he is a fed bitch boy.
I honestly hope somebody takes over the acp from haz, someone that actually has charisma and intelligence. jackson is a cretin so it won't help but he is a leg up better than haz. Just his legitimate targets videos show better speech skills than haz.
My two cents. I hate this clownworld.
>>2491957Also retard hype man lingo when he repeats the same word/sentence every 2 seconds, frequent superchat callouts and power trips when he singles out lone dissenters in chat.
They will,you won't 'cause you still are unacceptable boogie man word believers for them,ACP has a chance
>>2492675Looks based ngl even if haz is a retard.
>>2492675Careful, you gonna get banned like that
>>2492675Making the revolution one construction business at the time
They are a seed organization set up by the feds to be used if communism actually gets popular in the future. New commies will be funneled into these meme organizations, other examples are PSL, DSA, CPUSA, Green etc
>>2491957Biggest issue with Haz is that he's streamer brained. I don't think he's retarded, he's clearly extremely intelligent and pretty encyclopaedic knowledge of his historical and philosophical interests and tears to shreds people in debates, but he's still playing to largely essentially the left version of the Asmongold base.
>I honestly hope somebody takes over the acp from haz, someone that actually has charisma and intelligenceAgreed, I mean, Haz runs a party called the American communist party… that he represents himself with a Russian flag lmao.
Haz is fine as a Commie AM call in radio show guy, but he clearly doesn't have the mindset and temprament to actually run the party properly, it's clear that most of the ACP party managing is really done by the local chapters, while Haz and Hinkle are just figureheads.
>Fucking nicky fuentes does a better job and he is a fed bitch boy.I disagree, Haz has been basically Michael Myers chasing Fuentes around in every debate. Also Haz genuinely is fantastic at explaining Communism in an appealing way to normies.
Look up the video of Haz talking to a normie conservative about Communism, every Leftard honestly should learn from that video.
>>2504910Honestly 98% of the hate of the ACP is simply the reality is they aren't dysgenic oikophobic self hating punk brained like the rest of the left and they, like any same Marxist, rejects gender cultism.
If Haz was full "Muh Choo Choo rights", "Uhh yes, a man can just say he's a woman and there is no biological difference between him and a female in that moment" literally 90% of the opposition to the ACP would dry up within the hour.
>>2455903How is this any different from the wider left who deem "Umm social democracy is fascism, criticizing the democrats is fascism, having civil values is fascism, having immigration controls is fascism, this mildly conservative welfarist prime minister? Literally Nazi level Fascism".
I've long argued on Leftypol that Fascism was a fucking actual ideology and 90% of the people here disagree and have a meltdown over the fucking reality that yes, Fascists actually had a material program and actual ideological beliefs because it means they can't go around and label literally everything Fascism.
Fascism does not exist beyond some larp eastern european groups, Fascism died post WW2 and Fascist elements were them sublimated into the Liberal foreign policy blob. The average ex-literal Nazi today is your literal rainbow flag waving, redditor NAFO retard. (See Christina Freeland, The Uglies, the entire Balts, Average polak redditor, Nuland and Kagan and co.)
Also the ACP program is not Fascist at all, it's pretty much a copy-paste of China.
>>2504910>Reactionaries are based because it annoys people at the nazi bar I refuse to leave.Touch digital grass
>>2504910Haz makes anyone seethe. 2 streams ago he was like:
>WE NEED TO DESTROY CLASSICAL ARCHITECTURE OF EUROPE AND REPLACE IT WITH MODERNIST BRUTALISMJust to see how his chat would take it. He has all the hallmarks of a cult leader and why he likes trump and strongmen. He loves to shit test his followers because he is jealous nicky fuentes can commandeer an army of racists that all came from various pockets of the right while he cannot do the same to the left. The left sees through his bullshit and avoids him. All that hurts his ego so he lashes out against his followers so he can feel good about
>At least I have a higher quality followingHe constantly flexes how he has an army of loyalists. And constantly makes jokes about how he needs subs and money. He was even arguing with a bad-faith albanian dude (not zherka) and ended up debating how islam is actually communist with former nazis turned jihadis while displaying that albanian on the screen shadowboxing in a peppa pig suit.
<vidrelPathetic to be honest.
>>2505174>He loves to shit test his followersa true student of Stalin
>>2505174>WE NEED TO DESTROY CLASSICAL ARCHITECTURE OF EUROPE AND REPLACE IT WITH MODERNIST BRUTALISMwell he's not wrong
>>2505181I knew one of you uncultured swine was going to say that. Abandoning stalinist architecture was a really big mistake.
Fuck your worship of poverty faggot.
>muh excessesGlowposts like yours are the reason normies will become nazis. Nobody wants to worship poverty.
>>2505188 (me)
Deng was right.
high fashion communism is the way.
Fuck haz for being a salty arab unable to appreciate the culture of superior civilizations.
>>2505190He's. Lebanese. IDK if Levantine = Arab. I am not the geography understander.
>>2505411Haz pivoting to dawah-posting by mid-2026, im calling it right now
>>2505444He's been doing this for years. I found his apostasy interesting, but let's keep it real, this dude is from and is forever a Dearbornite.
>>2505014>Honestly 98% of the hate of the ACP is simply the reality is they aren't dysgenic oikophobic self hating punk brained like the rest of the leftReally? I get a much stronger "punk" vibe from them. Maybe my axis of orientation here is way different but like that the whole OWNED U BITCH attitude and trying to generate aggression and how they're REAL. They try to look clean cut but that's a surface appearance. This might be more apparent online though, but when I see one of their X accounts there's always a machine-gun spray of flags and icons decorating it which always looked to me like punk patches.
>I've long argued on Leftypol that Fascism was a fucking actual ideology and 90% of the people here disagree and have a meltdown over the fucking reality that yes, Fascists actually had a material program and actual ideological beliefs because it means they can't go around and label literally everything Fascism.I think that's a defensible argument.
>Fascism does not exist beyond some larp eastern european groups, Fascism died post WW2 and Fascist elements were them sublimated into the Liberal foreign policy blob. The average ex-literal Nazi today is your literal rainbow flag waving, redditor NAFO retard. (See Christina Freeland, The Uglies, the entire Balts, Average polak redditor, Nuland and Kagan and co.) I think the closest living examples are these Eastern European far-right paramilitary groups and the ones in Ukraine that are the playthings of those states' respective intelligence services, and Russia has them too in groups like the RO and Северный человек. But the idea that NATO = fascist because it absorbed German military officers is dumb. The East German officer corps was like 95% ex-Wehrmacht until the 1970s and like half of the functionaries of the SED (and all of the various controlled opposition parties) were ex-NSDAP. It's also not like the USSR was Tsarist because it absorbed Tsarist soldiers and officers, nor did the USSR became Nazi because it also recruited former Nazi scientists and technical experts (it did). Zhou Enlai served under the KMT in the 1920s and went to a nationalist military college (I think?). There are Ukrainian military officers who were trained by the Soviet Army, and there were Nazi collaborators who went during the Cold War as advisors to the Egyptian/Syrian armies who were armed by the USSR.
So, through a geneological account of individual identities, we can therefore conclude that the Russian Federation is not only Soviet, but Tsarist and National Socialist all at the same time! Maybe society does actually subsume itself to a few individuals and specialists (rather than the other way around).
>Also the ACP program is not Fascist at all, it's pretty much a copy-paste of China.Well a lot of their stuff about what's "productive" labor and what isn't has more similarity to syndicalism. Then you combine that with nationalism, and I think there is a fascist potential in that. But the ACP is a fringe movement. At any rate, the argument that fascism was a distinct ideology is that it blended ultra-nationalism with a non-Marxist (anti-materialist) mutation of socialism/syndicalism and was hostile to both Marxism and liberalism. I think what also gets left out in discussions of fascism is love of war as a revolutionary force and belief in soldiers as proving themselves through their courage to be the core of a new elite.
>>2505548>He's been doing this for years. I found his apostasy interesting, but let's keep it real, this dude is from and is forever a Dearbornite.He might also be from a Maronite Christian background in reality.
>>2505619>the idea that NATO = fascist because it absorbed German military officers is dumb.You call ACP fascist, yet you break spine to say NATO is not fascist? You are the fascist. Everything you say is lies
>>2505619NATO is fascist. Not because they absorbed german officers but because what they have been doing since their creation.
>>2505014>unlike you dysgenic oikophobes, I'm a eugenicist and xenophoberope
>>2505622>You call ACP fascist, here is what they said:
< I think there is a fascist potential in that. But the ACP is a fringe movement>yet you break spine to say NATO is not fascist? You are the fascist. Everything you say is liesNATO is reactionary. ACP is different kind of reactionary. NATO is bigger threat because imperialism.
>>2505014You are correct. Too bad the weirdos will not listen.
>>2505625Fourth Reich shit is for conspiratards who conflate atrocities committed in the name of the established order with more infamous ones, but aren't smart enough to discuss how the differences are also important. For all their pretensions to Marxism they also can't escape being American left-liberals at their core with this bogey-manning about a form of regime that was the main enemy of global liberalism when it existed, that's why they appeal to that. At any rate, you can either commit to a serious critique of imperialism and the democratic capitalist state as it has existed since the 19th century or you can view the post-WWII period as nefarious schemes by ex-Nazis and those influenced by them. You can't really do both.
>>2505701Fourth Reich shit is for people who are correct. Nazi germany was a project by western and british capitalists to commit atrocities in the name of the established order.
>>2505701It is also important to not give too much importance to the differences. Fascism is just the dictatorship of reactionary capital, as per Dimitrov. We can and do put the WWII-era Japan, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Croatia etc. in the same box as Nazi Germany for most intents and purposes. Yes, there are obviously differences between different dictatorships of reactionary capital. Yes, those could be relevant. But these dictatorships of reactionary capital spawn from the same roots, they tend to have similar problems and coping mechanisms. It didn't start or stop with Germany.
>>2505757For the examples you gave, I understand why people fighting in the Spanish Civil War would say that Franco is a "fascist" and are shooting at "fascists" even though some historian will be like "well ackshually it's a conservative restorationist regime with fascist trappings." But Dimitrov also explicitly distinguished fascism from liberal bourgeois democracy because of certain characteristics (there was a certain level of democratic space whereas that just flat-out did not exist in fascist states) and because those were potential allies in the anti-fascist struggle (at least temporarily). Especially the U.S. and Britain.
At the same time, this "Fourth Reich" stuff can also lead to a weirdly under-critical view of bourgeois democracy and the state around it as institutions as well. Those guys will say "American democracy was hijacked by an imperialist deep state" all the time. I know ACP types like to say that their support for Trump was actually some cynical maneuver to recruit MAGA people when Trump would let them down, but you know some of those guys also really did buy into Trump or voted for him or wanted to believe he wouldn't give Tomahawk missiles to the Azov Regiment or wouldn't turn the screws on Maduro, and have been disappointed. But they still like to talk like "oh it's the deep state at it again…." and maybe if Trump would only listen… while also believing that Russia is on the path to becoming socialist again (but mainly because it used to be the Soviet Union and it's the same now).
>>2505688The fascist liberal hides but his lackey has come. You defend somone who typed paragraphs to glaze nato as not fascist, while at same time attacking a Communist Party as fascist. You are also fascist and your constant misdirections are not unnoted. All who types paragraphs to glaze nato and slander Communism as collaborator is fascist rat. Everything they say is a lie. Fascist rats have no business in judging a Communist Party as reactionary
>>2505817ACP is dumb but "American democracy was hijacked by an imperialist deep state" is not wrong. idk why you are letting a minority faction of fed shitcoaters define reality for you sounds like terminal internet brain
>>2506408Does exculpating the sins of bourgeois democracy by equating it with the Nazis give you greater clarity in your analysis? There are some who don't want them to be different, or for liberal democracy to cause serious problems outside whatever similarities it has with ethno-religious exterminationism and omnidirectional warmongering.
>>2506433bourgeois democracy in general is not the same as the US empire
>>2505857you just make stuff up and act like court judge. power tripping troll.
>>2505619>Really? I get a much stronger "punk" vibe from them.What I mean is that I've made an argument on leftypol for years that the Western Left is largely just the modern manifestation of the Punk Subculture, since Zoomers largely abandoned music based subcultures for political ones. You can pretty much look at much of Left wing Activism, and even left wing positions on thing, coming from a anarkiddie, punk, "fuck the man! fuck society" attitude. I've been a Communist activist for 20 years, and honestly 70% of Leftists I've known in that time have been largely driven by a oikophobic teenage antisocial seethe that they never grew out of.
ACP do not give me this vibe at all, yes they are "punk" in relation to the West of the left and in how direct they are, but they are not actively antisocial retards who hate most working class people like most Leftists are.
>NATO = fascist because it absorbed German military officers is dumb. I don't think it's fascist at all, I think Liberalism basically erased Fascism of most of it's ideology beyond seething anti Russian/Communist bigotry, and then let those freaks let loose in intelligence forces to crack down on organized labour, left wing parties domestically and foreign policy blob to largely move to break up Russia.
Thats why I say Fascism was sublimated, nor that Fascism really exists functionally anymore, Fascists became just the thugboot arm to impose Liberal Imperialism and Class warfare. The average what would have been Fascist then, today, is your LGBT flag waving NAFO pink bombs type.
>I think what also gets left out in discussions of fascism is love of war as a revolutionary force and belief in soldiers as proving themselves through their courage to be the core of a new elite.Also the futurism, also the seething hatred of Christianity for "slave morality", like you said as well, Fascists also had that people should prove themselves as "heroes" through conflict and war, which often by "muh totalitarianism" retards claim is the same as the New Soviet Man, but the New Soviet Man was entirely about being a good civic minded person and giving up ethnic nationalism for a collective soviet identity so they are literally nothing alike.
>>2505681No, if you go by the belief that the ACP is influenced by Dugin (it's not in any of it's actual platform, Haz says he's influneced by Dugin, but he goes out of his way to not include that in the platform at all), then Dugin and the Nazbols were fanatical anti-racists. The position of Dugin and the Nazbols is that an overarching collective identity based on civilizational identity is what should be adopted and built upon, not ethnic identity.
I don't understand how people on Leftypol forget of all people, that the Nazbols and Dugin were largely trolling Yeltsin retards in the 1980s and 1990s who largely conflated Communism and Nazism as the same ideology, thus the term Nazbol was taken as a literal joke, just like how black people call themselves "uygha".
https://web.archive.org/web/20080213022928/http://www.nazbol.ru/rubr28/index0/253.html >>2505619> But the idea that NATO = fascist because it absorbed German military officers is dumb.NATO is not fascist because it absorbed high ranking nazi officers.
It is fascist because it's the militarised section of the imperialist nations organised on the basis for perpetual war to maintain a parasitic rentier economy
>>2506557>NATO is not fascist because it absorbed high ranking nazi officers. >It is fascist because it's the militarised section of the imperialist nations organised on the basis for perpetual war to maintain a parasitic rentier economyThis is 100% correct and your dumb bigoted video undermines your point.
>muh gays>they got rid of good guys like …. MacArthurholy fuck lmfao macarthur wanted to nuke DPRK what is she fucking talking about
>>2506517>I don't think it's fascist at all, I think Liberalism basically erased Fascism of most of it's ideologyYou are a retard, go read a book.
>>2506517>ACP do not give me this vibe at all, yes they are "punk" in relation to the West of the left and in how direct they are, but they are not actively antisocial retards who hate most working class people like most Leftists are.Well they just define who they hate as not part of the working class which makes it okay to hate those people. They buy into that right-wing frame that leftist = not working class. That left-wing values are incompatible with being in the working class or something like that. But listen man I don't want to hate anybody. I don't want to hate "leftists." I don't want to be one of these people who are like "fuck these shitlibs, man!" That's a very ACP thing to do, but they're just talking about normie left-liberals. I see a punk attitude as like "fuck the man, fuck society" but it's also like "fuck these normies." It'd be like hating my own mom and dad. But I'll tell you that fascist groups operate that way, it's all about getting people together and focusing them on hating some other group of people and trying to tear them down (usually people who don't have any power and who the group feels are easy targets for bullying).
>The average what would have been Fascist then, today, is your LGBT flag waving NAFO pink bombs type.I'm not trying to be rude but I don't know if you've spent much time around people who wave LGBT flags because they don't give me the same vibes as fascist paramiitary groups do. To be perfectly honest this is a subjective feeling but I've seen self-defined fascist groups IRL who scream "blood and soil" and carry torches and it's a different vibe from the Pride parades I've attended.
The reason these guys say this is though because they support Russia which defines itself as anti-fascist and its enemies as fascist. But it's not like Russia doesn't have its own native fascist tradition. If the Bolsheviks hadn't won the civil war, the word we use for "fascism" might have been a Russian word instead of an Italian word. You see the other side do the same thing. Israel also does it even though they kill people and play with fascist aesthetics (look up the Israeli rap artist Subliminal).
>Also the futurism, also the seething hatred of Christianity for "slave morality", like you said as well, Fascists also had that people should prove themselves as "heroes" through conflict and warIt was an important part of it. But I'll remind you that the fascists reconciled with Christianity to a degree when in power and (the Nazis included) put themselves forward as defenders of traditional Christian values and the "Christian German family." The occultic stuff gets played up more for the History Channel-type shows but they wore "Gott Mit Uns" on their belt buckles. In the United States, the most prominent fascists in the 1930s was Charles Coughlin who was a Catholic priest. Also there's the Black Hundreds in Russia and right-wing Orthodox types similar to right-wing Catholics in Franco's Spain.
>The position of Dugin and the Nazbols is that an overarching collective identity based on civilizational identity is what should be adopted and built upon, not ethnic identity.Well the civilizational identity is based on religion and "traditional values." Yeah I understand that but like Haz I've actually met Alexander Dugin (sort of, remotely, but we could see and hear each other) at a conference organized by an American neo-Nazi. I'm not just saying he was a neo-Nazi he really was one. But it's not because they shared the same ideology but because they shared the same enemy.
>>2509499>holy fuck lmfao macarthur wanted to nuke DPRK what is she fucking talking aboutIn the U.S. there was this John Birch Society crowd on the right that was deeply skeptical of NATO (along with international organizations like the United Nations) but very anti-China. MacArthur was a big hero to them and some wanted him to run for president. They are basically America Firsters who were Nazi sympathetic during the 1930s and racist but supported the war once Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
>>2509498>elected as high bailiff of his county>promises to police the police, use his position to better serve working class people in his community>absconds to Russia to be a TV talking headwhat did he mean by this?
>>2505014>I don't think he's retarded, he's clearly extremely intelligent and pretty encyclopaedic knowledge of his historical and philosophical interests and tears to shreds people in debates, I haven't seen any basis for this.
>Look up the video of Haz talking to a normie conservative about Communism, every Leftard honestly should learn from that video."Communists" who attempt to appeal to conservatives by diluting their theory into literally milk toast social democracy are just as bad as the most rabid liberal.
>Honestly 98% of the hate of the ACP is simply the reality is they aren't dysgenic oikophobic self hating punk brained like the rest of the left and they, like any same Marxist, rejects gender cultism. 99% of this thread critiques don't even have anything to do with what you're saying. Like an anon before mentioned, Haz unironically adopts the same vapid empty headed approach to politics that punks did, where aesthetic and blind contraranism take a front seat in contrast to actual meaningful praxis. Calling dislike of the US "oikophobic" is stupid as hell for any Marxist to state, particularly in the context of the ACP's tailist romantic approach in how it portrays the US and it's "fall".
>If Haz was full "Muh Choo Choo rights", "Uhh yes, a man can just say he's a woman and there is no biological difference between him and a female in that moment" literally 90% of the opposition to the ACP would dry up within the hour.I don't even understand what you're talking about, and I dont think any of the discourse in regards transgender people has to do with the idea of people being biologically male or female, as it has to do with sex and not gender. I also dont agree with this absurd tailist approach to politics, where we just kick down whoever is the social punching bag of the decade in order to gain some meaningless rapport with the existing conservative undercurrents of the time.
>>2510109im not even a hazoid but you are a retard
>>2506557>those faggots stopped us from nuking all the communists<yes as a communist i hate those fagshmm
>>2512562zero counter arguments detected, retard (not the anon)
>im not even a hazoid buttotal bullshit
>>2506517>calls people dysgenic oikophobes as an insult<I'M NOT A EUGENICIST BECAUSE UMMM UMM ALL THESE MENTAL GYMNASTICSfuck off
>>2454331S4A isn't a breadtuber, he's an ML
>>2467802>>2469683Agent Kochinski fans don't reguraly shit up threads while plenty of out most annoying posters are basically haztards in all but name and iirc Haz has literally beefed with the site before.
>>2506517lotta yapping just to dickride a bunch of socdems
>>2519998The funniest S4A moment was that Mao was being sexist when he talked about man in his writings and one of the Infrared collective OGs told him to read it in Chinese.
>>2519998NTA but need to resurrect the "beardtube" / marxtube general. Whenever actually good content gets posted (by accident?) in "ISG" it gets spammed out of view too quickly by trash and doesn't get the warranted discussion.
>>2520074Everybody does mistakes. From what I've heard of his commentary on Mao lately it's well informed. He does lean more Hoxhaist more, but he's nowhere near as obnoxious and dogmatic like most Hoxhaists I've come across online have been.
>>2520116I miss bunkerposting
>>2520116>he's nowhere near as obnoxious and dogmatic like most Hoxhaists I've come across online have been.uh he calls every AES revisionist imperialist red fash. i like his stuff too but the "antivisionism" is really offputting and he spends a lot of time getting hopping mad about <not his own bourgeoisie> and promoting imperialist propaganda about <enemies of his own bourgeoisie> doing the whole not real communism has never been tried stuff despite being really good at explaining dialectics he remains in this blind spot. like he could just remain neutral and explain what he thinks communism is according tot a text and let the audience decide for themselves if that fits a given state but instead hes always agitating against
>>2454298Haz' theory of capitalism will eventually just fizzle out is absolutely insane, the idea that capital owners will simply GIVE UP their capital once capitalism becomes mega capitalism that serves the people, is out of nowhere, I have no idea where he even refines theory into this, or what he's read to get to that point. Duginites, red-fascists, they follow some mystical idea of communism, not out of actual ideological convictions, but reactionary aesthetic.
>>2520606>uh he calls every AES revisionist imperialist red fash. i like his stuff too but the "antivisionism" is really offputting and he spends a lot of time getting hopping mad about <not his own bourgeoisie> and promoting imperialist propaganda about <enemies of his own bourgeoisie> doing the whole not real communism has never been tried stuffNah you're simply still a rose and don't comprehend the revolutionary core of Marxism-Leninism completely at odds with contemporary revisionist states.
>like he could just remain neutral and explain what he thinks communism is according tot a text and let the audience decide for themselves if that fits a given state but instead hes always agitating againstUnlike you he actually reads and comprehends the text and theory in context, from which it becomes obvious that China for example is led by a counterrevolutionary clique at the service of social-imperialism. But you'd rather watch CGTN streams than engage in communist praxis, becoming very offended when communists interfere with your induced delusion.
>>2520661>the revolutionary core of Marxism-Leninism completely at odds with contemporary revisionist states. even if true its still unprincipled especially towards semicolonial and periphery nations. revleft has the right line: measured skepticism + critical support
Strikes are direct action.
Baristas make commodities
Donald Trump and Maga in its entirety is a zionist operation
its literally just national socialism
>>2506557>fascism is when imperialismsmartest leninist.
>>2520922it literally isnt
>>2520934haz's whole point of analysis the subject of dasein or ethnos of civilisations, which was also hitler's concern and why heidegger supported the nazis.
>>2520931He should have never stopped being that
That was Him at his best
>>2520924is is imperialism turned inward, and nato is an organization for imperialist subjugation of its smaller members by the larger
>>2520936this. Haz is an HHHH
Hitler-Heiling-Hegelian-Heideggerian
>>2454298ACP isn't perfect but mogs every other "communist" party in America. Btw people talk about muh redfash nazbols or whatever orbiting the ACP but they're not actually the worst part about the ACP. It's the weird religious fundamentalists, from Muslims to tradcaths. ACP needs to kick them out asap if they want to be taken seriously at all.
>>2454383>>2454410only "reserve" members pay dues, not full members. and it's like $10/month so no he's not getting rich
>>2454412uber eats drivers are petit booj, based haz
>>2454431The only non-ACP communists I've seen in my city have been mentally ill blue haired baristas wearing Marx shirts and Trotoids selling newspapers
Meanwhile ACP are on the streets working with the people that's how I know about them
>>2521682>It's the weird religious fundamentalists, from Muslims to tradcaths. ACP needs to kick them out asap if they want to be taken seriously at all.but chairman haz is religious
>>2521696>mentally ill blue haired baristasok lol
>>2521682>i know they have red fascists and clerical fascists in their ranks, but they are objectively superior to other "communist parties"holy brainrotted
>>2520924>smartest leninist.<The form of capitalist society in which the bourgeoisie rules by open, terroristic violence against the people, as opposed to bourgeois democracy. As an extreme form of bourgeois nationalist rule, fascism often also includes rabid forms of racism, often to the point of genocide. The most vicious and notorious example was Nazi Germany (1933-1945). All capitalist countries have at least some elements of fascism, to one degree or another, and to the extent that the bourgeoisie thinks these elements are “necessary” in order to maintain their rule. Nevertheless, we call those countries which allow relatively more freedoms of speech, of the press, of association, and allow at least some mass protest bourgeois democracies, while those countries which have few if any such freedoms we call fascist.
https://massline.org/Dictionary/FA.htm“Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic, most imperialist elements of finance capital.” —Statement of the Enlarged Executive of the Communist International, Moscow, 1933.
Fascism is imperialism in it's most reactionary form.
All imperialist societies contain elements of fascis
>>2521696>The only non-ACP communists I've seen in my city have been mentally ill blue haired baristas wearing Marx shirts and Trotoids selling newspapers<Muh baristas Of the few communists I've ever encountered, zero were baristas, and it wouldn't even matter if they were. And I doubt you go outside at all, because how in the hell would you even determine this? This just sounds like the bitter imaginings of an anti-social youth who lives in a world of hypothetical interactions, who spends every moment rationalizing his assumptions on life to himself.
>Meanwhile ACP are on the streets working with the people that's how I know about themI've never seen this. I'm a tradesman.
Unique IPs: 197