/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Nothing ever happened, evacuations of civilians during war are a good thing, would do it again

Basically Crimean tatars and some Caucasus people like Chechens had an unusually high amount of traitors and collaborators, so they got wholesale deported. Don't really know about the others.

t. Russian

Sorry, Nazis should get punished. Not sorry!

>Be USSR
>late 30s early 40s
>you-know-what is happening
>you-know-who is trying to sow discord amongst the unity of the Soviet people along ethnic and national lines, attempting to coax non-Russian minorities to rebel with promises of autonomy or independence
>there are several anti-Soviet riots and rebellions at this time
>have to deal with real and would-be collaborators somehow

welp, they can't collaborate with the Nazis if they're nowhere near the Nazis

>load up entire nationalities and ethnicities wholesale and deport them somewhere else
>give zero fucks about who is and isn't a collaborator, figure that out later
>thousands die
>eventually those deported get to come back to their homelands a couple decades later
>Don't ask why Turkmenistan has the best Korean food outside of Korea

That's basically it. The Soviets had a problem and kinda went overboard in dealing with it. It was fucked up, but you can see the logic in why they did it, the circumstances in which it happened, and how some of them had the scars healed.

Shit happens, but it's over now.

the chechens deserved it

>>2506962
>Don't ask why Turkmenistan has the best Korean food outside of Korea
the soviet union inadvertently cross-pollinating cultures?

>>2507044
You are woke

>>2507047
I am actually, thank god I am no longer lulled to sleep by bourgeois society and morals

>>2506216
So it did happen but they deserved it?

>>2507049
like "genocide bad"?

>>2507066
WHAT GENOCIDE?

>>2507066
what genocide?

Petty small nations should be destroyed anyway, and will be absorbed come the triumph of Communism regardless.

>>2507151
Jews will survive communism

>>2507154
Abolishing capitalism will abolish the Jew in general and other relics of feudalism as well, like nations and the state; the family and religion in general.

>>2507160
Nation and the state are not feudal remnants

>>2507161
Yes they are. You should look into how the state as we understand it developed.

>>2507154
jews aren't a nation

>>2507164
Absolute monarchies that gave birth to capitalism later weren’t feudal at all either.

>>2507160
nonsense

>>2507170
yes they are

>>2507185
>yes they are
zionist delusion

>but that feels like capitulation that Stalin is as bad as the Nazis
In what sense is anybody saying that? The closest equivalent of the Soviet deportations is probably Japanese internment. They moved populations suspected of disloyalty away from critical areas during the war, and afterwards moved them back. Even if you believe in the worst version of these events, how is that even remotely comparable to the industrialized extermination of entire nations because they are considered less than human?

>>2507170
Jews lacked a single common language, instead speaking the languages of their host countries (e.g., Yiddish in some communities, but also Russian, Polish, etc.)
Jews were dispersed across different countries and continents without their own contiguous territory, living as minorities within other nations
Jews were not bound into a single, unified economic system. Their economic activities were integrated into the various countries and regions where they lived
While different Jewish communities might have their own distinct cultural traits, this does not manifest as a single, unified national culture shared by all Jews worldwide

So no, Jews are not a nation.

>>2507198
You don't even know what nation means

>>2507201
Illuminate me, anarkiddie

>>2507197
Because Japanese internment was done in a country that had been practically untouched by WWII, whereas the Soviets did their deportations knowing full well that they had not had adequate food if a disaster happened, which obvious would happen because they were supposed to be agricultural producers, whereas the Japanese-Americans were fed by the state since they were doing manufacturing work. The Soviet deportees had to produce their own subsistence, in a foreign environment they had no prior exposure to. For example the Crimean Tatars were deported to an area with endemic Malaria, when they had no exposure to Malaria beforehand. This caused a large death toll before the Soviets rushed with vaccinations after the fact.
Also, the deportations were intended to be permanent under Stalin. They only reversed them in the Khrushchev era.

>>2507198
>Jews lacked a single common language
So did Ukrainians. Didn't stop Lenin from creating Ukraine and reinventing a Frankenstein Ukrainian language. France before the French Revolution likewise did not have French as a dominant language but instead multiple regional ones.
>Jews were dispersed across different countries and continents without their own contiguous territory, living as minorities within other nations
You can only be dispersed elsewhere if you originally had a home and were kicked out. It was the Roman and Babylonian Empires that did the dispersing.
>Jews were not bound into a single, unified economic system. Their economic activities were integrated into the various countries and regions where they lived
Do capitalism, feudalism, or slave societies not count as economic systems now?
>does not manifest as a single, unified national culture shared by all Jews worldwide
A nation is by definition not worldwide. Your antisemitism is so intense you don't even realize you're contradicting yourself.

>>2507280
>Didn't stop Lenin from creating Ukraine
what a great man
>>2507280
>Do capitalism, feudalism, or slave societies not count as economic systems now?
too universal for particular application
>A nation is by definition not worldwide
national culture.

try to keep up

>>2506171
The real story is that they did it more or less how it is described, but with a lot less dramatization. It generally wasn't any ethnic cleansing except a few particular cases like operation lentil, which was not carried out with the express purpose of annihilated the caucauses people but did in effect result in large scale ethnic cleansing (But it was mostly undone in the 80s so no harm no foul, right?)

>>2507198
>Jews lacked a single common language … Jews were dispersed across different countries and continents without their own contiguous territory … Jews were not bound into a single, unified economic system … this does not manifest as a single, unified national culture
You know I figure some of the early Labor Zionists also read Stalin and were like "damn, he's right, we better get on that."

>>2507066
☝️🤓 Actually, it's "ethnic cleansing bad"

>>2507290
Old people, new methods.
Of course they didn't understand clearly the matters yet.
The habits of the past weigh down upon their actions.
That's why I'm optimistic with the future generations, because different from us, they are much more free from the past than us. They're born in an era where walls between ethnics are gradually disappearing, thanks to computers and informatics.
I'm not saying that ethnics will disappear, but it doesn't matter anymore. You can type with your native language here and I can still understand it just by hitting the translate button or copying it to chatgpt

>>2506171
>Stalin is as bad as the Nazis as it was an ethnic cleansing from how it's described by western liberal historians
1. It was ethnic deportations, like it or not- but if you're seeking morality from western liberal historians you probably know they're as hypocritical, in the sense they'll condemn Stalin, but not George Washington, Biden, The Clintons, Obama or Churchill- who, if we lived in a just world, would be on trial at the Hague.

2. While Stalin has a lot to answer for in terms of the ethnic deportations, homophobic laws, betrayal of communists in Greece/Spain, the backing of bourgoise republicans/factions in China/Spain over the communists and his anti-abortion laws, Stalin was, and objectively IS better than the Nazis.

Point to me where Stalin ordered the mass enslavements of entire populations.
Point to me where Stalin collaborated with private companies to lead anti-union movements.
Point to me where Stalin reduced women within his government as mere brood maids and mothers.
Stalin, and the USSR more broadly, had a hand in backing partisan groups in Eastern Europe/parts of the Balkans.
The USSR, even under Stalin, had some degree of democracy and land reform, wheras the Nazis were a totalitarian empire with virtually no suffrage at all- dedicated entirely to fuherprinzip.

And thirdly, let's not forget- Stalin, although certainly having a hand in these ethnic deportations, he was only part of the larger cog. We can't deny that it was folks like Beria who also had an equal hand in such a fucked policy.

Finally, the soviet union actually APOLOGISED and gave reparations to most of these ethnic groups- after Stalin died.

Can any of these so-called Western Liberal Historians point where the USA, France, Australia or god forbid, THE UK did anything similar?

Of course not.

Stalin may have been a douchebag, but he was never a Nazi nor anywhere near equivalent to one. And pointing out his crimes isn't conceding grounds to libs- addressing the truth and learning not to repeat it is a principle any communist worth their salt ought to adhere to. Can the same be said for Liberals?

>>2506962
It's basically what the burgers did with Japanese internment but on a bigger scale

>>2507850
I would compare it more to the Canadian Japanese Deportations, since they wanted it to be a permanent exile like the Soviets.
Of course the Canadians hadn't known a single attack on their country and had more than enough resources for themselves, while the Soviets did the deportations while having nothing to spare from the war effort.

>>2507850
Kinda, except it was partially intended to be permanent, and it was only years later that it was reversed.

Shit happens. History is messy. File this one away in the "30" of Stalin being 30% bad and 70% good

>>2506171
Strategic relocation of non-historic and reactionary peoples in order to further the defense of socialism. Read Engels

itt: people defend genocide rather than lapse out of the cold war chronomania

>>2508154
you dont seem to know what a genocide is
kinda embarrassing when one is livestreamed right now

>>2508175
i think deporting people based on ethnic status is genocidal, i think also bombing civilian areas to rubble then denying them any aid is genocidal, i also think you people should realize it's not 1977 anymore, it's over, the USSR fell, it's time to get a new strategy on how to change the world

>but that feels like capitulation that Stalin is as bad as the Nazis
>capitulation
The problem is your fetishistic obsession with a long dead politician. The idea that Stalin could have done bad things shouldn't pose a threat to your wider world view.
Of course the deportations were a horrible crime and should be condemned, but the Nazis were obviously still worse. Stop treating politics like a fandom and Stalin as your comfort character.

>>2507267
That's still not comparable to industrialized extermination of entire "subhuman" nations. What you're describing is a desperate security measure taken in the midst of a war of annihilation. What the Nazis did was go out of their way and dedicate scarce resources (at the expense of their war effort) to murdering people for its own sake.

It was a crime against humanity and something no self proclaimed "communist" should have ever done. The fact that the best defense the retards in this thread can make is "b-b-but he was better than hitler" is very telling.

>>2508277
>The fact that the best defense the retards in this thread can make is "b-b-but he was better than hitler" is very telling.
Liberals regularly point to these deportations to try and argue that the Soviets and Nazis were equivalents, which is a stepping stone to rehabilitating the latter. I'd say it's pretty important to highlight the difference even if you aren't defending the deportations themselves.

>>2508277
the best defense is that everyone did it, and ussr were by far the ones with the most justifications for it
if those population had not been touched and the collaborators among them helped the nazis slaughter people, would it be a better outcome because we could point to the communists superior morality despite potentially more deaths?

>>2508335
If this is true why didn't they deport ethnic Ukranians?

>>2508789
There are limits to the logistics of evacuating civilians en masse, can't save everybody

>>2508789
Because there were actually very few Ukrainian collaborators relative to their population. The ratio of Ukrainians that took up arms against the USSR vs those who fought for the Red Army is about 1:35. Also almost all the collaborators were from Galicia. The idea that Ukrainians weren't enthusiastic participants and defenders of the Soviet project is Nazi propaganda.

>>2508800
Is that ratio of the whole population of the UkSSR, or just the actual Ukrianians?

>>2508818
That's the ratio of the combined strength of the UPA and 14th SS division (200k) vs the number of Ukrainians who served in the Red Army (7 million).