How do you think American liberal politics will play out once Trump is no longer in power?
For the past 10 years, the entire crux of the Democratic Party has been "STOP TRUMP". The average American Democrat or liberal now bases their political views solely on how much they hate Trump, MAGAts, "manosphere" podcasters, so-called "alt-right pipelines", and everything in between. They have no real principles and it shows.
The right-wing, on the other hand, believes it is creating a new world; it's a much worse world, but that's how they want it. This has caused liberals to prop up the old, dying system as a way of preventing it from collapsing into something worse. Now, we're seeing liberals who claim to be "left-wing" embrace everything from free trade agreements (on the basis Trump's tariffs need to be stopped) to hyper-consumerism (on the basis that spending money on fashion and makeup and mindless consumer goods helps maintain your "individuality" against Trump-era conformity) to literal junk food (in order to own RFK and MAHA). It doesn't take much to realize all of these were once things American liberals strongly opposed 20-25 years ago; I'm old enough to remember when "clean girl" no-makeup aesthetics, eating organic, and herbal medicines were leftist things.
American liberals are now pushing a culture of hyper-rationality and order to counter the mass chaos that has erupted in America under Trump. They hate ICE agents terrorizing communities but they hate the sporadic community defence and protests that pop up to beat back ICE even more. They hate the Luigi Mangiones and the Tyler Robinsons and the prospects of an American Years of Lead. They want everything to be "rational" and based on slow progression and linear shit. But this way is outdated. Trying to find the "middle path" doesn't work when capitalism is in a state of collapse. For the liberal, everything that doesn't fit their paradigm is "mysticism" which always equates to "fascism" and needs to be stamped out before it manifests into authoritarianism. But how can this hyper-rationalism win?
The same is true of foreign policy. Liberals insist on American soft power, which arguably won't work in a world post-Gaza where American support for the most documented genocide in recent history was on full display. Trump, on the other hand, is an old school imperialist who simply seizes whatever he demands without caring.
So where does that leave the Democrats and their liberal base? What happens if Trump succumbs to kidney disease or whatever illness he has and dies in office from natural causes? The Dems spent 10 years obsessively attacking Trump and the "irrationality" of his supporters without providing anything worthy of their own. Realistically, what's going to happen?
Democrats in 2004 ran on the basis they weren’t Bush Neocons and still lost.
They won in 2008 because Obama was good looking and a fresh face.
They’re going to prep AOC to run in 2028.
>>2526856Obama only won because the economy collapsed weeks before the election.
They’ll just move their boogeyman from Trump to Vance. They’re already putting out articles about how Vance is an esoteric fascist or something.
>>2526850>The average American Democrat or liberal now bases their political views solely on how much they hate Trump, MAGAts, "manosphere" podcasters, so-called "alt-right pipelines", and everything in between. They have no real principles and it shows.I think you're right. On the other hand, there are good reasons to hate all of these things. Right-wing governments have found a strategy in appealing to extremely marginal groups of people: idiotic conspiracy theorists, health-food fanatics, and assorted religious quacks. These are relatively narrow groups of people. It's not a dignified ideology most people can relate to, and it confronts people as malicious. But it does lead to a sense that anti-Trump protest movements are primarily aesthetic rather than political protests. It's like a hostile aesthetic people are confronted with, and they want to rebel against it. Trump's people are doing stuff out of a bad science fiction movie, they have a certain image of themselves (they're obsessed with image) and want people to look at them, because they think it'll have some kind of effect on people. But it just makes a lot of normies hate them.
>It doesn't take much to realize all of these were once things American liberals strongly opposed 20-25 years ago; I'm old enough to remember when "clean girl" no-makeup aesthetics, eating organic, and herbal medicines were leftist things. Good riddance, honestly. I think the organic / herbal thing is a lot of quackery.
>They hate the Luigi Mangiones and the Tyler Robinsons and the prospects of an American Years of Lead. They want everything to be "rational" and based on slow progression and linear shit. But this way is outdated. Trying to find the "middle path" doesn't work when capitalism is in a state of collapse.Two things. The first is that capitalism is inherently "contradictory" (I know this is annoying way to put it) in that it's always sort of collapsing, but that's the NORMAL way it lives and reproduces itself. Capitalism is a violent and disruptive mode of production, but it's also effective. At any rate, I think this might lead leftists to misrecognize what's going on with it, like they see it in some process of collapse and go out and try to do revolutionary guerrilla shit, but they just get destroyed. There was an anarchist affinity group that carried out an armed attack not too far from where I live, and they completely screwed it up and were arrested, and it's like, they just threw their lives away for nothing. At any rate they probably badly damaged any kind of organizing further to the left than this No Kangz bullshit because it'll be swarming with federal hunt-and-peckers looking for the next group of people who want to magdump at guards outside an ICE prison.
>Realistically, what's going to happen?Dunno.
The Democratic Party are never going to win a general election again. The last showing was such a mockery and a pathetic joke of a campaign its clear they didn't really even want to win that badly. Their jobs don't depend on winning. If anything its better for them that they lose every election to some far-right psychopath, they can still say that they tried their best and still get to continue being a political party, but not actually have to ever deliver on anything they promise to the American public.
The problem with modern US politics is that it's fucking boring. Both liberals and conservatives don't care about long-term political solutions, they care about festering outrage.
Conservatives will freak out at drag queens reading books to kids in public libraries.
Liberals will freak out over anti-vaxxers.
Neither side really gives a shit about politics at this point. They care about appealing to outrage in order to rally up their supporters to go after the other side. Even political debates in America are like this. No one wants to discuss hard questions like: "Why do we even care about preserving liberalism and the idea of linear progress?" or "What kinds of institutions in America need to be torn down and replaced so that the marginalized can have justice? Why do we even put stake in ensuring the marginalized and oppressed receive justice?" or "What even is an epistemology unique to the American people?" or some other verbose intellectual topic like that. All they want to talk about is OTHER SIDE BAD. Yeah, it's fucking BORING.
>>2526875>idiotic conspiracy theorists, health-food fanatics, and assorted religious quacks.Ironically, 20 years ago all these groups (except the die-hard Christian nutters) would have been just as likely to become leftists as they would have sunk down the far-right rabbithole.
I'm 37 years old and I can say I was there, trust me. Leftists used to be the ones parrotting conspiracy theories, especially during the early days of YouTube and social media.
I think Caleb Maupin is right (to a point) about the American ruling class becoming tired of Trump. They see that he's a strongman who doesn't work for them. He works for himself and his small inner circle of ruling class elites. Trump's second term has very much plunged America into chaos and instability is never good for the ultra-rich.
With that said, I couldn't care less if the Dems find a way to remove Trump from office or if Trump dies from illness before his term is over.
>>2526898It largely comes out of the covid crisis. Liberals were the ones pushing for all the covid mandates in America even though radical leftists in Europe were in the streets protesting against the mandates in their countries. I'm pro-vaxx obviously but the reactions to covid were arguably just as painful as covid itself.
And let's be honest: in three years from now most Americans won't give two shits about covid and Dems won't be able to use New Age wellness influencers as a scapegoat like they were two years ago.
>>2526850>The average American Democrat or liberal now bases their political views solely on how much they hate Trump, MAGAts, "manosphere" podcasters, so-called "alt-right pipelines", and everything in between. Was it really any different in the past, when they defined themselves by "socialists/communists bad", "fascists bad", "foreign imperialists bad", "decentralization bad", etc.? Are "liberalism" and "conservatism" actual ideologies or are they just signposts that indicate the relative distance between two points? That is, is there actually such a distinct thing as a "liberal" or "conservative" or are do they only ever exist (and are capable of being defined as) relative to the other? What does it actually mean to be one or the other? Is it more likely that they've just internalized capitalist materialism nihilism, and "values" only exist relative to consumerist possessions, which is why everything in politics has (even more now than before) become a brand, like in a sports match?
>>2526911You're absolutely correct.
>>2526873This is it. Get ready for two or three years of shitlibs ranting about Vance.
>>2526850Liberal arguments on free trade are accepted by anyone who understands basic economics, including many on the far left. Tariffs increase price inflation. In theory they could bring back industry that never should have been offshored, but it would take decades to see any effects. Meanwhile you get fucked on everything you buy.
Democrats need to increase voter turnout by any means. If they dont win the midterms its over. They are controlled opposition. Just look at how they scrutinize every single thing leftists say while nazi roleplay chats from republicans get a slap on the wrist.
>>2526916The sooner the Democratic Party dies off the better.
Now I want to vote for Republicans just to accelerate the fall.
>>2526850Liberals spent 8 years hating Shrub and now they like him. So they'll rehabilitate Trump once someone "worse" shows up. Here's a preview of the future: "We didn't always see eye to eye, but at least Trump wanted to make America great again, unlike Mecha Hitler."
>>2526918So you live under a one party republican state where republicans have all the guns nukes and drones? The left has some frogs and gay bottoms.
>>2526919What's telling is, back in 2016 a lot of old school NeoCons like Bill Kristol began campaigning for Hillary. Trump appealed to angry GOP voters because he wasn't a NeoCon elite.
>>2526850All Democrats would have to do to win back public support is call out the eugenics of the Trump administration and start openly supporting the disabled, neurodivergent and marginalized who are being targeted by Trump and his minions.
Democrats can't go further left because they have to remain loyal to their billionaire corporate donors. But they can't stay center because a large portion of their voters are turning against them on the basis they aren't leftist enough. When Mamdani wins mayor of NYC it will be a huge blow to the Dems because it will prove to them that they can't win unless they become more progressive.
>>2526933The Gaza genocide was the nail in the coffin for the Dems, methinks. I don't know how they're going to recover from that unless they run AOC and a Mamdani-like running mate in 2028.
If liberalism continues to exist after Trump then it‘s going to be the death of the United States. If people don‘t even wake up now then Dems will ride out the collapse of the US while the circumstances that breed fascist reaction remain.
No liberalism after trump, leftists who seethed about the democrats will be happy there is no more liberalism while listening to Eminem 24 hours a day in Guantanamo
American politics is 90% aesthetics.
>>2526964Pre or post Encore Eminem?
>>2526850Democrats will lose in 2028 and seethe about it harder than they are now.
>>2526898There’s a good chance liberals will turn to smug atheism again in order to counter the right’s embrace of Trad Catholicism.
>>2527192nah, they'll just chase the same religious vote, but in a typical mediocre fashion, so the cuckservatives will win it again
>>2527193I’m talking more along the lines of influencers who support Democrats.
They couldn’t bend so they broke. Millennials and zoomers are more leftist than any other previous generation. The fact liberals refuse to acknowledge this is what’s shooting them in the foot.
>>2527396The ultra-rich overwhelmingly supported Biden in 2020 because Trump wasn’t able to fix the covid mess, and this caused loads of instability. They only started backing Trump last year because they decided the stick would work better than the carrot, but now the stick is showing to cause more problems than it solves
>>2526879People said the same thing about Republicans in 2008, as long as the two parties continue to exist they will inevitably trade power back and forth. It’s in the interest of the system to keep swinging back and forth as a valve for discontent. A one party American dictatorship would not last.
Ideally, Mamdani would be the future of the Democrats. Young, Muslim, and brown.
>>2527422I think that's true about COVID. But this time around it feels like more of the apparently "progressive" billionaire tech moguls (always strange and condescending figures) have expressed their comfort with Trump and are finding ways to make money together with him. If Maupin thinks some billionaires will force Trump out, I think that's wrong. For one, some of them (like Thiel and Sacks) were always hard right-wingers, and a bunch of others were, like, okay social liberalism is cool but don't look into regulating business or taxing us too heavily. Biden "betrayed" this tacit agreement with people like Lina Kahn at FTC:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_KhanBut they can probably rest easy knowing that if/when the Democrats get back into power, they don't have the consensus or willingness to do Trump's gangster moves on them in revenge (which they should). Ultimately these guys are little different from tycoons throughout American history. If Trump offers them more of a chance to share in the spoils, then they'll jump at teh chance. It's really the liberals who have been shocked (but shouldn't have been) that these guys jumped to Trump's side.
>>2527422It's more like, the DNC exclusively cater to the ultra-rich just like the RNC does, they suck billionaire cock all day for "political contributions" because American politics is not a democracy it's just a bidding war.
>>2526850>>2526875Blaming health freaks for Trump is as retarded as blaming Nietzsche for the Nazis. Most people voted for Trump because they thought he would lower the price of eggs, rent, and gas. Not that he would de-calcify people’s penal glands.
>>2527474Trump is a typical populist who says whatever and his brain dead supporters project whatever they want on to him. There were people who literally believed Trump was going to declassify secret CIA documents about aliens FFS.
the democrat politicians will just be the same milqtoast neoliberals they always were. The only way the democratic party changes is if it get hijacked by a democratic socialist in the same way trump hijacked the gop.
2028 is going to be a fun shit show, over 9000 demonrats trying to out do each other by being bill clinton 2.0
Im far more interested in what happens to the republicans, i used to think vance would coast the primaries, but then i realized MTG would be running and that would be put a wrench in maga post trump.
>>2527495MTG's problem is that she's a woman.
>>2527501Correct. She’s even gone so far as to call the GOP sexist.
>>2527192nope, if anything liberals are trying to take over chrisitiaty. I live in texas and there is this guy named James Talarico who is running for some office, he has been described as pete butgig meets jimmy carter. anyways he went viral as a left wing Christian who denounces Christian nationalism
if this guy wins he will proably get very big
>>2527501MTG doesnt have to win, she just has to be an albatross around vances neck, siphoning off votes from maga, i think all of that leads to someone like rubio or desantis winning the gop primary and MAGA collapsing
>>2526919People say this, but the difference is GWB and his cronies were fundamentally part of the same establishment as Clinton or Obama. Trumpism on the other hand represented GOP politicians finally catching up to the large part of their base that was pissed off about globalization and the demise of the postwar deals between capital and white American labor.
>>2527517When MAGA does collapse it will be into something even worse, I think. It will go from courting fascists to openly fascist.
>>2526873>is an esoteric fascist well hes not esoteric
>>2526933As covid restrictions were winding down I figured that the two-party consensus would give way to a MAGA party, a socdem party, and an increasingly irrelevant coalition of neocons and conservative Dems, and I think I am being proven right esp post 10/7/23
>>2527440Yeah that's actually why the US system has been so stable over time. Easy to incorporate different groups and interests into a democratic system so they at least feel like they can be represented in it. For example a lot of the civil rights legislation modern conservatives seek to overturn was essentially designed to stop the black uprisings of the 50s and 60s by allowing at least a segment of the population into professional organizations and the halls of power. On the other hand a large part of the societal instability that resulted in Mexico 1910s or the Middle Eastern crises of the 70s-90s came from middle class strivers being excluded from the kinds of patronal networks one associates with dictatorships embodied by one party or one person.
>>2526873Vance is as esoteric as my sphincter.
>>2526850>How do you think American liberal politics will play out once Trump is no longer in power?Well after Trump is out of office, then comes the "we defeated Trump" term. That's leftwards movement enough for everybody! No kings!
Probably some split chambers as well so there is no temptation to get anything done.
Then idk, who cares what concessions USAnos get along the way? They ain't gonna challenge the cold war consensus nor are they ever going to experience war on their land and be forced to reflect on "foreign policy". At best they will get some more "blowback" and we'll have to be oh-so-sad for a few months that consistently supporting the fourth reich had some of them blow up or w/e.
Liberals are always condescending, like they feel a constant urge to put the "bad people" (in this case, MAGAts) in their place. Makes sense that so many Democrat Party voters happen to be PMC.
>>2527866You're being condescending.
>>2527866>Democrat Partyare you 60
>Well after Trump is out of office, then comes the "we defeated Trump" term.
That makes a lot of sense actually, we might see a rerun of the Obomber victory after 8 years of Dubya which I guess lots of us are old enough to remember. They might even wheel out the old fuck himself, lol, but more probably some reasonably fresh face perhaps? Someone well-spoken, charismatic and inspiring whom the whipped masses can gather around as their savior from Drumpflism. A latino might be nice. But one thing's for certain, it can't be a woman – burgers are too reactionary for that.
Or we'll just get suspended/fraudulent elections while Trump&co sell the US for parts and usher in patchwork techno-feudalism. Exciting times!
American "liberalism" is just fascism bro
Both democrats and republicans are pandering to christian nationalists
>>2528706Dems don’t pander to Christians. They pander to “logical” and “rational” educated elites (PMC). The people who think they’re too smart for religious faith.
>>2528710They’re literally in the process of throwing sexual minorities under the bus for suburban votes
>another thread about the USkys
>>2528706>>2528713>its not REAL liberalism because i dont like itlmfao retards
>>2526893That's a sign the left is developing and the schizos are splitting like ᴉuᴉlossnW did.
>>2528731Ezra Klein manufacturing consent for it all over his twitter feed
>>2528710The Dem primary is about pandering to black church goers in red states.
>>2526933"But they can't stay center because a large portion of their voters are turning against them on the basis they aren't leftist enough." Not so sure of that, that's what some said in 2016 after clinton lost and see what happened
>>2526850At the end of the day the needs of capital will determine what political vision succeeds. Biden tried to bruteforce growth through state infrastructure spending and it didn't work. Trump is trying to bruteforce growth through tariff arbitrage and it also doesn't work.
No party is willing to commit to the obvious solution (limited nuclear/biological war that kills enough proles and destroys enough MoP to restore profitability to industrial production) so we're just gonna limp between blue and red-flavored nonsense administrations until the US military stages a coup and ends the First Republic for us.
I think liberalism is cooked, it's failed, it can't speak to the needs of the people (or at least pretend to) and can't articulate a vision of a better future or how to get there in a way that motivates anyone but a tiny sliver of the population. It's bargained and compromised on everything formerly used to justify itself, Gaza during the Biden years was a violent and ugly contradiction to everything liberalism claims to stand for that liberalism was unable to prevent or end. Instead they cracked down on dissent which deepened the hypocrisy further. Total ideological crisis. Their political coalition collapsed out of something like despair in the face of Biden and Harris.
The only ways to effectively combat Trump similarly require a break from liberalism in order to restore liberalism. They are paralyzed. We are less than a year into Trumps term and we are already at a point where it looks like any Democrat running for president will be forced to articulate whether or not they will try to punish anyone in the Trump admin for the crimes so far, let alone those to come. Imagine that being an issue at all but to the Dems that's something they will still try to avoid and tamp down on! Abolishing ICE is on the lips of huge swathes of their core base, not radical left people at all, and sure they can use the media to give those people orders but we are already so far past the demands Obama or Biden ever had to shrug off from these people and we've got a long time to go. And they are going to dig in their heels and refuse, or at best make vague allusions to maybe doing that, which will be walked back while in office.
People need their leadership to start municipal and state militias that vastly outnumber ICE and arrest them for any incursions, they need direction and cover and solid resistance to Trump's escalations, they need their police forces decisively purged and retooled to protect the population and subdue federal goons. The shutdown should be used to force the withdrawal of troops from blue cities and states. Instead it's just epic clap backs and statements.
So they can win the White House again (I doubt they will) but they are still dead in the water, they are expired. Any liberal president going forward will likely be another flavor of fascist expanding and normalizing Trump's America like Obama did after Bush. This won't solve any problems or bring any stability, so the Democrats are fucking done and any victories that await them are merely delays to the collapse at best.
(Copypasta from 2020)
Biden's victory will definitely spell the end of the left-podcast grift, all the unfunny Patreon-funded "socialists" who followed Chapo will slowly die off once Trump is out of office and "resisting fascism" becomes unfashionable. Breadtube will devour itself and collapse, and the various magazines like Jacobin will shrivel and die. This will be helped along by a concerted effort by the establishment to clean up "extremism" online, which will involve purging militia/Qanon/Trumper shit along with anarchist and commie material on social media. Eventually the spectacular failure of both socdem electoralism and anarchist street riot-protests to gain a significant foothold will sink in. DSA will start seriously losing money and eventually implode. The Greens will face a backlash and purge from the granola liberals. All other party-sects will remain regional or irrelevant. Existing activists will hit the wall and burn out. Socialism will return to being a fringe wierdo thing, the way right-libertarianism is becoming today. Yes, material circumstances will continue to deteriorate, but without a coherent base among industrial workers or a sympathetic ear in the liberal establishment people will default to identitarian nationalism and rioting rather than any cohesive political movement.
It won't, hopefully
Liberalism is so thoroughly baked into America's conception of self, that fascists will have no trouble presenting themselves as the True Liberals sooner or later
Democrats will no longer have trump as a figure to punch around in their handmaidens tale larping fantasies. Vance being hooked up with the tech oligarchy might make him less endearing to the maga coalition. I have no idea how they would handle a milqtoast neocon like marco rubio winning somehow.
I can picture some outcomes of the 2028 democrat primary, half the runners wanting to be bill clinton 2.0, the other half so desperate they lob wedge issue truth nukes about trans rights and israel that make gavin sweat. guys like newsome do not want to have to talk about those things kek.
if gavin somehow gets past the primary in tact i see him choosing a vp who is more to the left of him in order to appease the chapo types and maybe as insurance against assassinations
post trump world is an interesting one, dude has been in power longer than any president or politican since fdr i guess.
Im as curious as what happens to both the left and right after trump.
>>2530527Kinda entirely wrong but not really
>>2530574MAGA already presents itself as "we are just the normal liberals from the 90s"
>>2530591Fair enough, I'm just curious about the next level of that trend post-Trump
People keep saying they'll run AOC but they're still blaming even the most milquetoast progressives for being too "ultra" and currently their gameplan is to get a blue Joe Rogan and abundance (blue neoliberalism). Trumpism will probably fade away once he's gone because his style of leadership cannot sustain itself. That's why he resorts to images of violence to argue for himself that he's the leader.
Again, this is the DNC where the majority voted against impeaching Trump for the Iran shit. Even if this No TYRANTS bullshit is just a rally for progressive DNC super pacs, I don't see any evidence they'll swing that direction suddenly.
>>2530580It would probably be right in a world where Biden could easily deliver on all his promises and the fronts in Ukraine and Palestine stayed frozen. But like most alternate history scenarios that requires changing a million other things to the point where it's basically a different world
>>2530591MAGA also repeatedly claimed to be the ones upholding democracy against a tyrannical Democratic Party over pressure to censor certain things online. And yet even leftists will never second guess their belief in democracy LOL
Better question: what will the libs do when they can no longer blame Russia for anything?
>>2532827They will always find a new scapegoat, the next one will probably be China and leftcoms here will toe the NATO line as they always do.
>>2532911Mad and triggered
>>2526850>I'm old enough to remember when "clean girl" no-makeup aesthetics, eating organic, and herbal medicines were leftist things. the new line is that clean girl is racist because its juxtaposing a young healthy white woman vs a black girl or latina chola eating a cheeto.
>>2533620Absolutely retarded. Anti-makeup was always a leftist rejection of capitalist beauty standards and now leftist women are embracing makeup as a liberal own against MAGA? Please.
>>2529422<Not so sure of that, that's what some said in 2016 after clinton lost and see what happenedyeah but that was kindof a fluke, and Biden ended up adopting Bernies positions and personell half way at least at first
>>2533622its because no makeup is tradwaifu coded
>>2533625Ridiculous. They cake on the makeup in all of the social media posts.
>>2533625>”everything conservatives do I’ll do the opposite! That’ll show them!”Liberals deserve genocide just for being this moronic.
>>2533622there is no 'left' anymore in the west
IDpol-CIA-KKK has won
>>2532911Leftcom: Enemy Unknown
>>2533652Yup. They say Marx was racist and ableist so they replace him in universities with Foucault, who was a literal pefophile.
>>2533620It is amazing how much of a self-inflicted wound their collapse in support especially with men has been. Just continually promote the dumbest most unsustainable viewpoints and ugliest imagery possible, what could go wrong? Unfortunately most of the people at the top responsible for this aren't going to be the ones facing the consequences of this, many such cases.
>>2533830If Trumpers told people not to drink gasoline, ShitLibs would be chugging it by the gallon. That’s how fucking pathetic and worthless US politics is.
They will bomb at the midterms for being useless and then blame Russia.
Mamdani and AOC are the future of the Democrats.
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