>Europoor
It's becoming increasingly clear that the majority of proles in Europe and North America are being brainwashed by their phones into believing immigration is the biggest issue in their countries. I have largely ignored this issue, as I don't really think it matters but then, last night, there was a lumpen riot in Dublin against an IPAS centre in which a foreign national who had been denied asylum and was told to "self-deport" had apparantly raped a 10 year old girl who was under state care. I usually don't believe a lot of the lies told about "migrants" online but this case makes me feel particularly uncomfortable.
It was a clear failure from the neoliberal Irish government and it's institutions that allowed something like this to happen. Why wasn't this man deported immediately after being denied asylum? Too expensive, apparently. Why was this man allowed to be in a situation where he could sexually abuse a child? Why is this man in my country in the first place? Ofc, the Free State institutions are keeping silent on it, pissing off people even more.
So, how do leftists feel about immigration and the current asylum process? Obviously, I understand this wouldn't be an issue if western corps weren't raping the third world but I also think there is a discussion to be had. Are open borders in the current world really working? Would they work post-capitalism? How do you feel about immigration, positively or negatively?
96 posts and 20 image replies omitted.>>2531949It's so true Trump is considering anmesty for illegals like Reagan. His deportation order does not cover the agrucultural, service, or hospitality industry.
https://cis.org/Richwine/Oped-Trumps-New-Amnesty-Would-Cover-About-Two-Million-Illegal-Immigrants >>2531933>>2531956Pointing to someone who is also obviously lying is stupid. Why would they fare well in polling or get any votes, it's extremely transparent. The fact that the media tries to split of voters from anti-immigration parties, does not make the left seem like any kind of resistance to oligarchs.
>>2530843<what do we do?abolish capitalism and seize the means of production
>>2531891How did you get psyoped? What were you watching to become brainwashed?
Let every single person in and give them a nice house, anyone who complains gets shot
>>2531040I agree that anti-immigration sentiment didn't define politics in let's say the '70s as it does today, even though some European societies were already mixed at that point (mostly the countries with the biggest colonial empires).
The relatively recent deterioration in living conditions and increased competition for well-paying jobs coincided with greatly increased immigration. No matter how you analyze it, workers WILL connect the most immediate societal change they see (more non-white on the streets) with the difficulties they have with making a living, if they aren't already being lead by a vanguard (and in 2015 the vast majority wasn't).
What do we do about the international jewish conspiracy my fellow leftists, you can see that Herr "totenkopf" Platner has a lot of votes, when will the left stop be psyoped by the (((globalists))) and tackle this question? This is why we loose you know!
Humans are supposed to migrate around the world. We've done it for 300,000 years. Why should we have to stop now?
>>2535931humans have been killed for 300,000 years for migrating where their not wanted too.
Immigration is ok. It is under bourge, I just want to work less, so for me, as an immigrant, it is no use. Low paid, long hours. For me as a citizen, it is no use! I can't find anything that is not full work day.
>>2535940>humans have been killed for 300,000 years for migrating where their not wanted too.No, that's actually a rather recent phenomenon.
>>2536313>its muh human natureWhat do we do about defecation?
>>2535931Go migrate to a non-white country then
>>2536295How the fuck do you know?
>>2536984The modern concept of borders and citizenship did not exist until the 19th century and the era of nation-states.
>>2537064pretty sure the concept of killing foreigners is as old as humanity
>>2537077historically, more often foreigners were the ones doing the killing (logic, you dont move toward people more dangerous than yourself), and displaced population often happened because they themselves were getting invaded and killed by kingdoms/empires in expansion and so went the other direction to settle.
But mostly population movement were peaceful, because more people settling land was beneficial to local powers as long as they werent a challenge to the local rule, because shit wasnt centralized and standardized at all, and everything was very local so a guy from 1000km away wasnt that much different from a guy 100km away
so approaching this with a modern mindset is a bit ridiculous
>>2530926<My greatest hope is that a red-brown coalition saves the day (after all growing the economy by forcing enterprises to invest in labour-saving technology as part of national plan is the only way to actually end immigration, not by achieving growth by increasing the mass of exploited people by bringing them from abroad), but that would be pretty hard to achieve if the basis of the identity of the left and right is hating each other.uh, you had me until this line. Red-Brown is fucking stupid and after the immigrants the left is next on the list of people to exterminate if history is any guide
>>2531717<Marx and Engels' position is not the same as that of Third Worldists who refuse to organize for the common interest of all workers of all nationalities, regressing to a moralistic position of pity for Third World workers and resentment against First World workers.some versions of third worldist is radlib white guilt wrapped in marxist language
>>2530926I am the fascist who made the other thread and I agree with this. Too bad that it won't happen. Just to let you know i will probably sympathise with you when we get rid of all the non whites owo
>>2537064The concept of territorial behaviour goes back to chimpanzees
castrate rapists
simple as
>>2530926we should be pro-immigration. not because it's a le good thing to do, but because it's important for leveling the value of labor power. we should couple increased immigration with policies that dispossesses the peasantry worldwide. this would be an excellent way to push history forwards
>My greatest hope is that a red-brown coalition saves the dayconsider necking yourself
>>2537814Yeah but the "territory" would be a pond or a bush or a dead animal, not an entire fucking continent.
>>2537077Until quite recently in history, almost everyone in the world was a foreigner to everyone else. If you travelled more than 50 miles in any direction you would be in a foreign land with foreign people speaking a foreign language.
>>2530848>Job: TeacherLel
>>2537859There isn't a industrial base for a socialist economy isn't there yet in Eastern Europe, trying to force a revolution would be retarded.
It might work in western europe where the tension between the burgeoise and worker's have boiled which may result in a revolution
>>2538444To clarify as to why Eastern Europe isn't ready, it is because they live in a semi-peripheral state; in other words, they are integrated into global capitalism mainly through foreign-owned industries, service sectors, and cheap labour markets.
Therefore, our capital is mainly controlled by foreign corporations and is domestically weak, as well as the fact that unions are either co-opted by the neoliberal or just too weak.
We would first need to use coercive power to state power and policy to (a) steer foreign investment toward upgrading local capacity, which would be done by using FDI screening, targeted conditions, and industrial policy to steer foreign firms to upgrade local supply chains,
(b) build domestic productive actors via industrial policy and public finance i.e., subsidies, public procurement, concessional finance and tech support for domestically headquartered firms and worker cooperatives in sectors where the region can be competitive
(c) strengthen labour and cooperative institutions
Only after we managed to do that could we be ready for market socialism.
>>2538451you're right that development is needed. but to preclude at the outset the possibility of revolution is silly. after all, Russia in 1917 was extremely backwards
>>2538444>There isn't a industrial base for a socialist economy isn't there yet in Eastern Europe, trying to force a revolution would be retarded. you mean like in the soviet union?
>>2537859>lowering wages is progressivewhat?
>>2537064this is true. as i show here:
>>2524559the decline of empire generally coincides with increased nationalism, since empire in itself must be international.
>What do we do about immigration?
Speed up the bureaucratic process for legal migration and require every migrant to join a union.
>>2538577what would constitute illegal immigration?
>>2538578People who'd repeatedly avoid this process legal migration.
>>2538582and the only law is to join a union?
>>2538584Join a union and work for a certain amount of time, of course. If you have health conditions that make it impossible to work, or if you're a child or a single parent escaping war or genocide, you would be freed from this requirement. That is also assuming that the nature of work isn't as inhumane as currently under capitalism. Ideally, you would have a 30-hour work week in general, universal health/childcare and the workplace would be democratized at the very least.
>>2538542t. Robert Conquest
>>2531543What I'm saying goes beyond the machinations of the state. I'm outright saying it doesn't matter what the "real" reason is behind (mass) migration.
I'm concerned with
why people care at all. Which says a lot more about them than whatever system they think they're living in.
I also don't buy into this "the media told me this!" excuse people come up with. Like I was browsing r/europe (inb4 >reddit) earlier today, and there was this woman who admitted she "was racist" when she was poor, but then she started to do a little better and then "lol I was no longer racist" because she wasn't "competing" (with those "ethnics") anymore.
The assumption here is that it's reasonable at all to share this attitude. Natural even! (as one commenter stated) But it isn't. Because when I was in her place, what I felt was
solidarity. And not even when I was out on the streets and could barely afford to buy bread did I blame "brown people", jews, women, etc. for what I was experiencing.
I also don't see see the value in pointing out who's doing it, as opposed to critiquing the attitude itself (immigration as something to be "solved", xenophobia and racism as 'natural' responses to poverty). Saying its a zionist ethnonationalist propaganda doesn't necessarily mean it's false.
>>2538691as i have already said, the volk are racist
there is nothing more to it
>>2538451>>2538444>>2538516Nirvana-attainer analysis. Consider this instead:
https://c4ss.org/content/24150What is the social basis of capitalism? Social relations mediated through capital and the commodity form. So why would abolishing this have anything to do with "building the productive forces"?
>>2531717I think entertaining separatism even in face of (bourgeois) chauvinism is a mistake. As seen in the USSR. The alternative is splitting the world into a collection of bantustans, which is what we have today: Capital moves (mostly) freely, workers (mostly) don't. And this is the true goal of separatism; the creation of new plantations where the new nascent national capital and its bourgeoisie can exploit its workers.
There's nothing worthwhile or salvageable in nationalism as a "socialist" project.
>>2538696Maybe some people are more easily frightened than others, but thinking this makes a good argument against immigration (brown people bad!) is bad faith. Or at the very least, the people who think like this aren't
owning their racism. Instead they do this thing where they pretend their tribalism is only natural, or they tell you to stare at the graphs they copied from facebook or their tabloid of choice. Whilst none of that explains their attitude itself.
The issue here is a lack of introspection and (moral) courage. You can see this in OP where there's the assumption it's only reasonable to assume an immigrant who was told to leave the country was going to sexual assault a kid. And immigration is something the "left" has to solve.
>>2538691Some people straight up don't like the way foreigners look, their cultures, their food, their language/accent. That makes up like 50% of anti immigration. Another 50% is economic, like competition for jobs or welfare smooching etc. Do you really not know this?
>>2538743>Or at the very least, the people who think like this aren't owning their racism>The issue here is a lack of introspection and (moral) courage. precisely, but there is a dilemma here, where many people may genuinely be racist, or even conditionally racist (e.g. my mate is black) yet it is profoundly un-civil to be openly racist (something these people implicitly recognise). so then, is it "better" to live in an openly racist society, or a society of closet racists?
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