/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2530843
>Obviously, I understand this wouldn't be an issue if western corps weren't raping the third world but I also think there is a discussion to be had.
IMO the left can't win on it either way. It's a right-wing issue because it's the right which made it an issue and built a constituency around it. The left will never outlank the right on this or out-Tommy the Tommy Robinson. Not gonna happen. The left will win on its own issues like cost of living.

Total (insert a demographic) death

It's kind of like Tropico… you can adjust the sliders to have more immigration, but the nationalists will get angry at you. It's their issue because it just works that way. The left can't be El Diablo because that's not what the left is in the society. Anyhow, you have nationalists in many countries.

I'd also add that immigrants get a say too or play a role in events. They might seem invisible but eventually they will speak up for themselves. There's an interesting paradox in my country right now because there's a highly public anti-immigrant crackdown, but the very likely future mayor of the largest city is an immigrant with a lot of support from the immigrant population there (many of them South Asian) who also swung to the anti-immigrant president in the last election (!) more than other groups apparently.

>>2530845
Yeah, I think the discussion shouldn't be had actually. When the yellow vest movement happened and was supported by a majority of the French population the topic completely died, the right wingers were on TV desperatly trying to shift the debate now centered on cost of living and inequality to immigration but it was pathetic and didn't work. It's basically an idpol psyop depending on the bourgeoisie having a monopoly on public discourse.

in the UK the unprecedented influx of immigrants since 2020 is due to tory de-regulation after leaving the EU, which allows for low-skilled workers to be hired. simply raising visa requirements would automatically reduce the influx of foreign labour, as well as raising domestic wages to have workers compete for low-skilled roles. the issue is the cheapening of labour to raise profits.

>>2530843
>What do we do about immigration?
My tactic is calling people retarded for caring about it

>>2530845
>we have to surrender these issues to the right
just sounds like youre too cowardly to give a rational solution which could convert people

>Why wasn't this man deported immediately after being denied asylum? Too expensive, apparently.
you know this is a lie though. there is no lack of public expense. the reason he wasnt deported is because the government is complicit in the crime. shouldnt be surprising, since most politicians are pedos themselves.

it should be explained why is immigration happening and that no bourgeious, or populists party is going to end it. meloni cucked out to the italian business. so has every other right wing populist.
but theres no point trying to play either side or make policies. it just falls into a trap with some patsocs trying to out flank the right, (or look at sir kier starmer trying to be more right wing. nobody buys it.) or the established left just because the right hate the policy of housing alsylum seekers in hotels, that means that housing people in horrible hotels is good. but you'll have the usual activists turning up and chanting slogans for a policy nobody likes.

>>2530867
boomers weren't expecting the boriswave at all

>>2530845
The problem with trying to give left-wing solutions to immigration is as you have described.

On the other hand, the (native) working class is absolutely anti-immigration. That is just how perception works. Neoliberalism caused a deteroriation in living conditions. It has also caused massive immigration. While the latter isn't being caused by the former, if people are getting poorer and the most drastic change they are saying in their day-to-day lives is more and more brown people walking on the streets, it's extremely easy to blame that as the cause of their suffering and you sure as hell not going to convince them otherwise.

And if you are a socialist, your duty is to stand with the downtrodden. A large chunk of those people are immigrants. How are you going to balance that with a left-wing and moderate anti-immigration policy? The immigrant poor will choose you because you are the only one appealing to them, but right-wing workers will think of you as another leftie who wants to replace white people with brown people.

So even if you have a soft anti-immigration policy (restrict future immigration but give equal rights to those who are already here), you are going to become a party of Muslims. As far as I know this is what Melenchon does and this is the best we can do currently. And I haven't even talked about the "left-populist" parties that cucked themselves to the neoliberal left like Podemos or refuse to have any criticism towards immigration like Die Linke.

Unfortunately even if the right gets into power, they won't fix immigration. Just look at Meloni's government. It shows no signs of weakining even though to the best of my knowledge major cities in Italy are still full of Arabs and blacks. Right-wing politicians just need to say hateful things with zero substance in terms concrete policy, but people will support them

The way I see it there will be an ultra-radical right takeover where they mass deport or outright exterminate the non-white people and few years later people will realize that it didn't fix the economy and they are still poor and then they overthrow the fascist regime. Or don't because at that point we have fascist police states all over Europe that will imprison, torture and kill you if you question legitimacy.

Or maybe there will be a civil war between the left and the right as economic conditions further deteriorate. We don't know who will win (probably the right because the army, the police and the secret services are filled with the sympathizers), but a lot of people die and people will become poorer than ever.

My greatest hope is that a red-brown coalition saves the day (after all growing the economy by forcing enterprises to invest in labour-saving technology as part of national plan is the only way to actually end immigration, not by achieving growth by increasing the mass of exploited people by bringing them from abroad), but that would be pretty hard to achieve if the basis of the identity of the left and right is hating each other.

But immigration is somewhat of a problem, there's tons of evidence showing that certain immigrant group are net negative to the country host, the question is: why? Is it their culture? Poverty? Another factor?

>>2530926
>Or maybe there will be a civil war between the left and the right as economic conditions further deteriorate
theres already a war between the working class and the left, and you are pushing them to the right

This thread is a good example of how people are so easily swayed by their emotions. You made a thread just because of this one incident.

>Why wasn't this man deported immediately after being denied asylum? Too expensive, apparently.
Not unreasonable. How often does it happen that a denied asylum seeker expected to self-deport rapes a minor instead? You would spend a lot of money to deport these people right away just because of something that might be rare.

>>2530928
If you‘re a Marxist this shouldn‘t be a big conundrum to you. Self-deport from this board, liberal.

>>2530843
One immigrant man rapes a child: media uproar

A thousand Christian priests rape children: silence

I don’t care.
Climate change will force 1 billion Africans and Indians towards the northern hemisphere and its gonna be hilarious.

>>2530867
Visa requirements are already insanely high. You need to be earning like £35,000 a year in order to stay. That's like middle class income.

>>2530933
And what's the reason, oh big smart marxist?

>>2530943
Not wasting my time with you.

>>2530946
Cope

What should be done about the yellow peril comrades

>>2530843
Immigration is progressive in the long run but Europe rushed things way too fast during the refugee crisis. Giving the working class some degree of border control should be a no-brainer for socialists as it helps keep the fascoids in check unlike during the chaos that comes from unrestricted immigration. The focus should be on the quality of immigration with people coming to work study and build a life not just those chasing welfare gibs. This way immigrants can actually integrate with the wider society instead of ending up in isolated enclave ghettos.

Seize the means of production.

>>2530954
so true, the global south should send the west all their bright students, hard workers, and wealthy proletarian managers, all of them, they should keep the rest behind our people's militarized border though i don't want parasite scum that doesn't add enough value and think they can get healthcare or housing, it's better for them if they stay in the mines, this is the socialist position, like marx said after all, the working men have […] country

>>2530961
For 1st world 3rd world to integrate its a necessary step that may hurt your feelings.

Nothing.
>immmigrant
As opposed to some dude from a the city 20 miles away raping a kid? What is being implied here? That he should have been deported already or never been allowed to enter the country, because everyone should have known he was going to do something as fucked up as raping a 10 year old girl? Based on what exactly? Being a migrant (and possibly "brown")?

But here's the thing: Men raping and sexually abusing kids is widespread, and if what I've seen in my own life is any proof, most of it isn't prosecuted. And even when people know about it. It doesn't result in riots and protests by thousands of people every time it happens. It's gross, it shouldn't happen, but that's not really what "anti-immigration" protests are about.
>>2530928
>On the other hand, the (native) working class is absolutely anti-immigration.
No lol they're not. We're instead whipped into a frenzy against people who look a too different or crossed an imaginary line. There's no innate difference between migrating to a nearby city, as opposed to moving halfway across the world. There's no "fixing" immigration because its innate to how modern capitalism functions; we move away from where we grew up and were born to seek jobs which allow us to pay for a living, which brings us into competition with other workers. Be it those who have lived all their lives wherever we happen to be working, moved in yesterday, as well as workers who aren't even living in the area (see IT workers, etc.).

>>2530966
the working class is not allowed to be authentically racist against foreigners?

>>2530973
Yeah they are, CHINAMEN GO HOME

In the short term, all you can do is minimize the conversation (since it's basically a psyop) and implement reforms to make the system less difficult but also improve integration and deal with fraud/abuse. Until humanity begins to approach an internationalist mindset, people will remain tribalistic and insular, so we can't entirely solve the problem.

>>2530973
Funny (no really), but that's not what this is about. Some here are inventing bullshit reasons for why they "oppose immigration".
Now If people wanna to be essentialist ethnonationalist racists, then at least admit it. But pretending there's something uniquely special about moving between countries as opposed to state/province or county lines is bad faith.

>>2530926
It sounds like according to you non-whites popped into existence in 2008 or some shit.

>>2530845
>>2530926
"""Tummy Wubbinson""" (real name Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon) is a Mossad asset, and this is a microcosm of what's actually going on.

There is no "right wing" or "left wing" solution to immigration in the mainstream. Europe, the UK, the US, and much of the world are dominated by totalitarian neoliberalism, which is actually just Fascism if Fascism had actual theory. The "left" and "right" in these places are, in fact, one single group, not separated by supposed ideology (a public-facing charade), but united by subservience to the Military Industrial Complex, global finance capital, and Zionist imperialism, with "Israel" initially serving as a kind of laundromat for the revival of full-throated Fascism, an international supporter of racism and ethnosupremacy for decades which has received bottomless support from "the west" even as western politics tried to distance itself publicly from openly endorsing such attitudes.

Because of this, all western leaders will be completely devoted to creating the material conditions which make it physically impossible to "stop the boats." US/"Israeli" foreign policy is what created and prolonged the Syrian migrant crisis, and the UK and EU leaders would never stop serving the same agenda on any serious level no matter how much they're willing to scapegoat migrants themselves as the cause of the problem. Destabilizing society and using this as a tool to create chaos and divide workers is the point. Imperialist wars and economic war (as the US has waged against Venezuela and Cuba, even in its own hemisphere) create mass migration, the states pursuing these policies know this, and, yet, they still use the migrants as a bogeyman when those migrants, now refugees, reach their doorstep.

Once those migrants enter, they are then used as a way to undercut labor laws. As seen in the US, the threat of brutal crackdowns serves less as a means to stop this and more as a means to terrorize those groups into silence, to keep them as close to chattel slavery as possible (in some cases they have literally been brought in as chattel slaves), and to expand that fear even to workers who have migrated completely legally so that they are as easy to blackmail and manipulate as the ones who would fear deportation due to lack of papers. In the UK, idiotic pogroms based on lies are whipped up against them by fake patriots in league with foreign intelligence, and the state then uses this violence as a pretext for broad totalitarian crackdowns.
Astute observers will note that the organization of """Tummy Wubbinson,""" despite his criminal record, has in recent times faced less repercussions from the Starmerite state for inciting the burning of places of worship, and violent attempted race war than Palestine Action has faced for a campaign of damaging arms factories which peaked with spraypainting a plane. This is not an accident. Starmer, Farage, """Wobbinson,""" whoever the Tories have now, and the British political state in general are all diehard zionists aligned with the arms industry. No matter who you vote for, you are going to get the same result as long as the financiers of politics in the US, UK, EU, etc. are war profiteers and zionist oligarchs.

The plan to create migrant crises through massive acts of global violence, profit off of said violence, exploit migrant labor, and create domestic chaos & division by using refugees and migrants as scapegoats for the crimes of the imperialist ruling class is one plan. No politician who supports the wars and claims that they'll stop the migrants themselves from coming in is sincere. These politicians are tools of global power, and they see borders as a useful tool for lulling the working class of western nations into a false sense of security; every such politician knows that these borders are imaginary lines, they do not really care who crosses them, nor does a British politician hold any less contempt for British workers than they do for Palestinian, Syrian, or Iraqi workers. They are going to kill you, they are going to do it brutally, and they will try their best to make it so that in any such scenario there will be large swathes of the working class cheering for the wholesale destruction of "other" swathes of the working class. This will happen the very moment that doing so is no longer an inconvenience, and as the workers destroy the wealth they themselves created, who among them survives at the end will be even more indebted to the enslavers of humanity.

It's embarrassing that there are, allegedly, people on sites like this who sincerely fall for it.

>>2531041
I find these critiques (its all an imperialist conspiracy) a lot weaker than explaining why "anti-immigration" is an incoherent stance which obfuscates the actual underlying attitudes and fears. And that it can't be "fixed" because the 'free movement' of labor is inherent to modern capitalism. And that this applies to both intra and international migration.

Whether this is done deliberately by zionist imperialist elites, or if they're simply callous, complacent or ineffectual, is not something I see as relevant in itself.

>>2530877
>>2531041
I'd say right-wing politics is all about constructing "threats." It can be migrants but it can also be drag queens or atheists or the homeless or really anything that appears alien or "outside" the system (women ruining video games!). The particular content of the chosen scapegoat is less important than the function which is political, economic, and psychological.

I don't go for the conspiracy frame so much as a "strategy" frame, and I think right-wing parties are principally after power and care about dominating the immediate situation and this is one of the tools in their toolkit. It's not just the West either, you see the same tendencies in a lot of countries including India where the BJP constructs Muslims as a threat extending to migrants from Bangladesh.

>>2531062
so you would support the restriction of labour if capital was also restricted, thereby erasing the contradiction?

>>2531131
godamn right, god bless the chinese for staying pure

>>2531140
I don't think there's much hatred being expressed but I can sense your resentment.

>>2531135
Ccp should crossbreed chinese with africans to create a super race of high autism score bbc ubermenschen

Immigrants are scabs, simple as

>>2531144
Not if they get organized.

>>2531151 (me)
Seriously wtf is wrong with you that was a bait

>>2531151
who cares it's our job to organise them either way.

>>2531145
They are already organized by people who brought them or helped them come by helping them with their visas and paperworks and job finding. Those immigrants are on their employers side already.

>>2531161 (me)
Like most people

>>2531161
>Those immigrants are on their employers side already.
who cares it's our job to organise them and get them on side anyway.

>>2531161
Get this: the employers also pay them money (usually).

>>2531168
If immigrants are scabs so is every local worker

>>2531173
They are, fuck workers, they're the ones making capitalists rich after all

>>2531177
Whatever you say lumpen transwahman go take your diy drugs

>>2531173
I went to McDonald's and learned they have workers who get paid by capitalists. I said to the guy in the drive-thru, I don't want to be part of your system, man.

>>2531174
Ruling class wouldnt have brought them here if you did your duty and mating pressed a woman so she could give birth to little prolelets. Now it is up to Rakesh and Pajeet to improve the demographic you self made cuck

I like that when Marx addressed this in one of his letters, it was specifically addressing Irish immigration into England, now the Irish are the virulent anti-immigration chauvinists, I guess that's how things go. The answer, of course, was the definite blow against the bourgeoisie would happen in Ireland where the impoverished working class was to begin with, without an emancipated working class in Ireland, wage suppression would continue in England indefinitely. I guess Marx was third-worldist lol.

>>2531062
>Whether this is done deliberately by zionist imperialist elites, or if they're simply callous, complacent or ineffectual, is not something I see as relevant in itself.
Ok, well it's the former. Biden, Trump, Starmer, Sunak, """Tommy Wobbinson,""" Farage, Macron, Rubio, Blinken, Baerbock, etc. all serve exactly the same interests and are paid to do so. The supposed ideological competition between them is completely fake in the same way that the rift between EU leaders and Netanyahu is (they're already rolling back proposed sanctions, and they consistently do less than the bare minimum required of them under the written law to oppose "Israel's" genocide), and the same way that the supposed rift between Netanyahu and the """Israeli opposition""" is, aside from figures like Ofer Cassif who would never become particularly powerful there anyway. It's kabuki theater.

You might not see it as relevant, and that's ok, but for me personally I think that there's some risk to underestimating the enemy, here. Particularly, there was this misconception, very common in the 2000s, that George W. Bush was just a complete moron. Ok, that probably wasn't entirely a misconception; he probably was an idiot. However, the PATRIOT ACT, the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, the torture and black sites, the agenda to destroy a long list of countries, the creation of the DHS and ICE were not the products of Dubya's bumbling idiocy, but pre-planned actions of the American state in pursuing its agenda. To attain these, they, with Bush, Jr. as the figurehead, engaged in a series of deliberate deceptions and a campaign of mass censorship and punishment of those who broke ranks. It wasn't an accident, it wasn't a fluke; they did it on purpose then, with the help of the likes of David Cameron, and they're doing it on purpose now. It's no coincidence that we are still, to this day, seeing the reintroduction of figures like David Cameron, Elliott Abrams, Benjamin Netanyahu, etc. who have been participating in this stuff at various points for the last 20-40 years.

It's fair to ascribe it all to neoliberal capitalism broadly and cynical pursuit of global capitalist interests, but it's also definitely on purpose and they know what they're doing. If this wasn't the case, then you'd see the US, UK, and Europe freaking out about "Israel" funneling money into violent neo-Fascist astroturf movements the same way that many of these countries freak out about supposed Russian or Chinese influence. Instead, these states work to obfuscate what is going on while using the chaos as an excuse to further bring the boot down upon the workers.

>>2531102
>It's not just the West either, you see the same tendencies in a lot of countries including India
Most national governments, including that of India, are under de facto US/western hegemony even if they seem independent on the surface. Some are more extreme than others (IE Argentina, El Salvador, Haiti, Egypt, Lebanon, Ukraine, The RoC, and the various tiny island nations which are so weak that they wouldn't even speak a word that contradicts the US agenda), but, in practice, few are entirely removed from the same global political/economic program. There are countries like Iran, Yemen, the DPRK, and Palestine (but not the PA) which do not submit to this, but most countries, including both India and Pakistan, do fall in line to avoid conflict with the United States when it comes down to it. It is, currently, more subtle in states like these than it would have been in the past, but that also means that maintaining these large nations like India & Pakistan as collaborators on largescale imperial projects is more manageable than it would be if the US openly humiliated them all the time in the same the way that it does European countries.

>a foreign national who had been denied asylum and was told to "self-deport" had apparantly raped a 10 year old girl

Sorry but I'm not seeing the connection between the crime and the man's nationality. Natural born citizens rape girls too.

>>2530843
I think that communists can, in fact, outflank the right on this issue. The problem is that almost no country has actual communists with a voice any wide masses of people are going to hear.
You can see this argument regularly on 4glow now: communist states didn't have what they call mass migration, the students who came went back to their countries and contributed to their industrial growth instead of making life worse for the workers of the recipient society. Everyone wins. And there is truth to this argument, even if the USSR probably has the record on actual mass migration over a short period of time (1941-1942). But you know what they mean.
Unless this line of thought is espoused mostly by trolls, these far-right people came to that conclusion themselves.
What people here miss is that fascists are not a game mechanic, they are largely very lost people who respect strength. And there is one country that gained a lot of strength over the decades because of the work of their Marxist-Leninist party.
Far more difficult things have been done by communists in the past. A competent Leninist party would have had little issue in this area. Real patriots are a natural fit for the group that wants to save the country. Nationalists were led by communists all over the world during anticolonial and anti-imperial struggles in the 20th century. The much larger issue is the severe crisis of the left.
It's not like the far right has a good track record in this regard. Nazi Germany literally captured millions of slaves, primarily from the USSR, while conditions for their workers deteriorated below the Weimar levels.

>>2531387
is it a "right-wing" policy to simply regulate immigration though? the insistence that its right-wing makes it impossible to talk about.

>2530843
>apparantly
did it happen or not?

once the occident stops looting samara, the samarans will stop moving to the occident

>>2531109
No. The only way to stop this entirely is tie workers to their workplaces and neighborhoods, and prevent anything from seeking work outside of their immediate community. Which I'm not in favor of.
>>2531140
>answers
We should organize pogroms? When a working class dad rapes his daughter should we do that too?
>>2531320
>underestimating the enemy
I think there are two issues here, one is misidentifying who the 'enemy' is (it's not particular members of the bourgeoisie, which are continuously replaced - including Epstein - not if you want to talk structurally). The other is how all this conspiracy (even if true) and geopol stuff obfuscates why people participate in anti-migrant or race riots. Which has more to do with fear of the Other and the Juissance found in ethnic hatred, and moral panic. And especially its most orgyastic libertine expression: the Pogrom.
"Mass immigration" doesn't require nefarious conspiracies on part of fascistic pedophillic satanic zionist billionaire oligarchs.
The same processes are happening in China, India, Nigeria and other places. Rural to urban migration and people moving between regions. And also happened in European states, North America and Japan in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

>>2531387
People still migrated to and between the 'ethnic' SSRs. Moving to Moscow itself was difficult due to how jobs and apartments were allocated in the city.
I'm seeing a lot of thinly veiled "what if we had bantustans but leftist"?

>>2531399
and?

>>2531435
the problem is its like hey theres this one wild trick where we can funnel these far righters into communism.

>>2531387
Found the hazoid

a lot of you guys are saying the right will never bother stopping immigration but drumpf has essentially stopped illegal crossings along the mexican border

>>2530848
Why are you scared to say that you are in the US? The feds aren't targetting you

I don't know about other european countries but england can get burned down to hell.

>>2531428
>I think there are two issues here, one is misidentifying who the 'enemy' is (it's not particular members of the bourgeoisie, which are continuously replaced - including Epstein - not if you want to talk structurally).
I didn't say that it was.
In the section which addresses attitudes about Bush, see if you think that I identify a single villain who is solely at fault. What I'm talking about are the machinations of the state, and those have not actually been subject to any real change for a very long time. The reason I point to recurring characters is to illustrate that the agenda hasn't changed, that there is an underlying plan which has been in progress for a very long time. They know what they're doing, and that's why they keep doing it.

>The other is how all this conspiracy (even if true) and geopol stuff obfuscates why people participate in anti-migrant or race riots. Which has more to do with fear of the Other and the Juissance found in ethnic hatred, and moral panic. And especially its most orgyastic libertine expression: the Pogrom.
Actually it's the opposite.
Reducing this to an explanation akin to "human nature" is misguided. States' power is specifically funding and propping up the European ""nationalist"" movement. Mass media plays a very deliberate roll in encouraging it. Within the states where these things occur, the "opposition" to it, even from positions of power, wilfully handle it with kid gloves, even when the ""nationalist"" movements are smaller (and more violent) than movements which western governments choose to aggressively suppress.

All the time, people argue that countries like Venezuela and Cuba struggle economically simply because socialism is bad - but the problem here isn't that Cuba and Venezuela differ in their approach to property rights and the role of the state and of workers. The problem here is that the US government has been engaged in economic war against these nations for many years. Whether or not they would thrive without the US state intervening to attack their economies, no honest assertion can just totally discount the action of the American state and reduce the economic hardships to the supposed consequences of communism or human nature or whatever. Even if someone believes that to be the case, it simply is not what's going on.

The reality, which is not a conspiracy theory or whatever, is that the US & "Israel" have been using state power to funnel money into these ethnonationalist astroturf campaigns abroad. That's what happened. Pretending like they are a totally organic thing which sprung up out of the ground without a bunch of foreign coordination, and without the complicity of the "liberals" in the political machine of states where this has occurred is simply not correct. If it wasn't happening, then we could speculate about what natural human urges were causing it, but it is happening, so this dismissal of the current reality is just being obtuse. It's not the first time that Fascist states have propped up other Fascist movements abroad. It's not like the "Israeli" state is even shy about this at this point, and the US has long been known to run right wing ops all over the world.

>"Mass immigration" doesn't require nefarious conspiracies on part of fascistic pedophillic satanic zionist billionaire oligarchs.
No one said "Satanic."
Also, the destruction of Iraq, Syria, Libya, Somalia, etc. absolutely did require the specific actions taken by western states. The chaos, and mass migration, in western Asia was caused by their actions, actions they had planned since at least the 1990s. The migration from Venezuela which occurred as a result of US sanctions was a thing which people in the first Trump admin predicted would happen, even as they eagerly enacted those very same policies which caused that economic hardship for Venezuelans. This isn't in dispute.

We aren't talking about some other period of mass migration which had no discernible state actions as root causes, we're talking about mass forced displacement knowingly perpetrated by the very same state powers who then, reliably, use the people they've displaced as both political scapegoats and extra-cheap labor. When doing this creates chaos domestically, they use it as a pretext to crack down on the general public more and expand their own powers over speech and privacy and assembly.

>>2530877
What about Trump? His policies have tanked immigration into the US.

Either native reactionaries kick out all the browns or Muslims outbreed the natives and institute shariah law

Either way reactionary forces win :)

>>2531575
It's literally all fanfare and no action. He's deporting less than Obama and people are still coming in illegally. He also increased immigration from India

>>2531602
Source? Counting all the people that were blacksited and disappeared?

>>2531341
This is true, I heard an Irishman in his 70s was up in court for 20+ counts of noncery too.

I think why lumpens are chimping out is because there's a huge push from the global right networks to sow dissent in Western European states by pushing Great Replacement, Globalist conspiracies, etc and those jobless retards believe it. However, events like this galvanise these peoples beliefs and the government really doesn't help itself when foreigners commit violent/sexual acts and then they're left holding the bag with their pants down. It's almost like FG/FF want far right protests to go ahead.

>>2531641
If you think Trump is secretly committing a mass slaugther of people at black sites, then who cares what you think. Have fun believing whatever you feel like

>>2531681
>Have fun believing whatever you feel like
you mean like you are doing pretending immigration hasn't been lowered the past year?

>>2531681
I didn't say I believed anything else than masses of people being sent to black sites, moved around and kept from attorneys and family which is reported by multiple media investigations, lawyers, family members and is effictively making them disapear. I'm glad you work at the DHS and know where everyone is though, probably should tell their families and lawyers!

>>2531190
Marx and Engels' position is not the same as that of Third Worldists who refuse to organize for the common interest of all workers of all nationalities, regressing to a moralistic position of pity for Third World workers and resentment against First World workers.

Let's begin with the text addressing the issue of Irish and English workers at the time:

<I shall give you here only quite briefly the salient points.

<Ireland is the bulwark of the English landed aristocracy. The exploitation of that country is not only one of the main sources of their material wealth; it is their greatest moral strength. They, in fact, represent the domination over Ireland. Ireland is therefore the cardinal means by which the English aristocracy maintain their domination in England itself.

<If, on the other hand, the English army and police were to be withdrawn from Ireland tomorrow, you would at once have an agrarian revolution in Ireland. But the downfall of the English aristocracy in Ireland implies and has as a necessary consequence its downfall in England. And this would provide the preliminary condition for the proletarian revolution in England. The destruction of the English landed aristocracy in Ireland is an infinitely easier operation than in England herself, because in Ireland the land question has been up to now the exclusive form of the social question because it is a question of existence, of life and death, for the immense majority of the Irish people, and because it is at the same time inseparable from the national question. Quite apart from the fact that the Irish character is more passionate and revolutionary than that of the English.

<As for the English bourgeoisie, it has in the first place a common interest with the English aristocracy in turning Ireland into mere pasture land which provides the English market with meat and wool at the cheapest possible prices. It is likewise interested in reducing the Irish population by eviction and forcible emigration, to such a small number that English capital (capital invested in land leased for farming) can function there with “security”. It has the same interest in clearing the estates of Ireland as it had in the clearing of the agricultural districts of England and Scotland. The £6,000-10,000 absentee-landlord and other Irish revenues which at present flow annually to London have also to be taken into account.

<But the English bourgeoisie has also much more important interests in the present economy of Ireland. Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class.

<And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.

<This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organisation. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this.

<But the evil does not stop here. It continues across the ocean. The antagonism between Englishmen and Irishmen is the hidden basis of the conflict between the United States and England. It makes any honest and serious co-operation between the working classes of the two countries impossible. It enables the governments of both countries, whenever they think fit, to break the edge off the social conflict by their mutual bullying, and, in case of need, by war between the two countries.

<England, the metropolis of capital, the power which has up to now ruled the world market, is at present the most important country for the workers’ revolution, and moreover the only country in which the material conditions for this revolution have reached a certain degree of maturity. It is consequently the most important object of the International Working Men’s Association to hasten the social revolution in England. The sole means of hastening it is to make Ireland independent. Hence it is the task of the International everywhere to put the conflict between England and Ireland in the foreground, and everywhere to side openly with Ireland. It is the special task of the Central Council in London to make the English workers realise that for them the national emancipation of Ireland is not a question of abstract justice or humanitarian sentiment but the first condition of their own social emancipation.

<These are roughly the main points of the circular letter, which thus at the same time give the raisons d’étre of the resolutions passed by the Central Council on the Irish amnesty.

[…]

We hit another bird with the same stone, we have forced the Irish leaders, journalists, etc., in Dublin to get into contact with us, which the General Council had been unable to achieve previously!

You have wide field in America for work along the same lines. A coalition of the German workers with the Irish workers (and of course also with the English and American workers who are prepared to accede to it) is the greatest achievement you could bring about now. This must be done in the name of the International. The social significance of the Irish question must be made clear.

<Letters of Karl Marx 1870, Marx to Sigfrid Meyer and August Vogt In New York

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm

Remembering that Marx and Engels favored uniting all workers of all nationalities, including immigrants, to fight together for the communist revolution and their shared class interests, separatism was not acceptable to them without some material conditions. Irish separatism was an acceptable alternative due to English chauvinism, which hindered the organization of the English and Irish proletariat. This prejudice stemmed from the intensified subjugation of Irish workers. If the alternative to a joint revolution in Britain is the continuation of this subjugation of the Irish, then Irish independence would be an option for a future socialist federation on more equal terms between the Irish and English.

I'll post the text where you can read "The Question of the General Council's Resolution on the Irish Amnesty" if you're interested in reading it, which explains this point:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/03/28.htm

>>2530843
Now, to answer the question about immigration, I will first cite the general position that differentiates communists from other working-class parties in the manifesto:

<The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

<The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

<The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.

<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

Let's look at practical examples of a political program in an election in a bourgeois democracy, with texts by Marx and Engels that fit what is written:

<(iv) Organization of labor or employment of proletarians on publicly owned land, in factories and workshops, with competition among the workers being abolished and with the factory owners, in so far as they still exist, being obliged to pay the same high wages as those paid by the state.

<(v) An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

<Frederick Engels, 1847, The Principles of Communism

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

<1. One rest day each week or legal ban on employers imposing work more than six days out of seven. - Legal reduction of the working day to eight hours for adults. - A ban on children under fourteen years working in private workshops; and, between fourteen and sixteen years, reduction of the working day from eight to six hours;
<2. Protective supervision of apprentices by the workers' organizations;
<3. Legal minimum wage, determined each year according to the local price of food, by a workers' statistical commission;
<4. Legal prohibition of bosses employing foreign workers at a wage less than that of French workers;
[…]
<7. Responsibility of society for the old and the disabled;
<8. Prohibition of all interference by employers in the administration of workers' friendly societies, provident societies, etc., which are returned to the exclusive control of the workers;
<9. Responsibility of the bosses in the matter of accidents, guaranteed by a security paid by the employer into the workers' funds, and in proportion to the number of workers employed and the danger that the industry presents;
<10. Intervention by the workers in the special regulations of the various workshops; an end to the right usurped by the bosses to impose any penalty on their workers in the form of fines or withholding of wages (decree by the Commune of 27 April 1871);

<Karl Marx and Jules Guesde, 1880, The Programme of the Parti Ouvrier

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/05/parti-ouvrier.htm

Now let's look at Lenin's quotes for those who pretend the Bolsheviks didn't have workers of various nationalities or refused to organize immigrant workers:

<We can demand popular election of officers, abolition of all military law, equal rights for foreign and native-born workers (a point particularly important for those imperialist states which, like Switzerland, are more and more blatantly exploiting larger numbers of foreign workers, while denying them all rights). Further, we can demand the right of every hundred, say, inhabitants of a given country to form voluntary military-training associations, with free election of instructors paid by the state, etc.

<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, 1916, The Military Programme of the Proletarian Revolution: III

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/miliprog/iii.htm

<6) Freedom of movement and occupation.

<7) Abolition of the social estates; equal rights for all citizens irrespective of sex, creed, race, or nationality.
[…]
<12) Replacement of the standing army by the universally armed people.

<12) The police and standing army to be replaced by the universally armed people; workers and other employees to receive regular wages from the capitalists for the time devoted to public service in the people’s militia.
[…]
<In the endeavour to achieve its immediate aims, the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party supports every oppositional and revolutionary movement directed against the existing social and political set-up in Russia, but at the same time emphatically rejects all reformist projects involving any expansion or consolidation of the guardianship of the police and bureaucracy over the labouring masses.

<V. I. Lenin, 1917, Materials Relating to the Revision of the Party Programme

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/reviprog/ch04.htm

From here, you can already see that any excuse anyone gives to increase the repressive power of the bourgeois state under any pretext must be opposed by communists. Remember that the proletarian state has the right to use its revolutionary terror to socialize the economy and punish counterrevolutionaries as it pleases, since the state is an instrument of one class to oppress another.

There are many possible actions to be taken with wage equalization, unionization of all workers, the right to radical unionization to organize outside the control of the bourgeoisie or its state, advancement of the legal right to public defense, democratization of the legal and judicial process in addition to the guaranteed public legal right to legal processes for all workers to fight in solidarity together, adding to this with the socialization of needs so that the population has the right to housing, education, health, childcare as a social responsibility of the entire society instead of being at the mercy of all of this that will remain as commodities for profit in the market.

>>2530845
This. Don't quote me but I remember studies proving rightoids always automatically benefit from immigration being the topic

>>2531710
Why I trust two sources that both have lied on this issue frequently and both have a monetary incentive to lie about the numbers?

>>2531714
You're delusional

>>2531190
>now the Irish are the virulent anti-immigration chauvinists,
I feel like you guys just interact with the posts that don't get suppressed on Twitter and you think that's everybody from a given place. Literally every hysterical ""patriotic"" psyop overstates how much of the general population actually agrees with it - like, this is a high number of negatives, but it's not even higher than the positives.

>>2531387
>A competent Leninist party would have had little issue in this area. Real patriots are a natural fit for the group that wants to save the country.
There was a period in which communists organized patriotic fronts but I think the reason that worked is that it was occurring in a context of German, Italian, and Japanese invasions and setting up fascist puppet governments. Like in Bulgaria. It's not really the same thing as winning over "real patriots" to kick immigrants, who are being kicked plenty from what I can tell from the Proud Boys joining ICE in my country. They're high on the hog and have no reason to join a communist party (for one, they actually get paid by the government to do this).

>Nationalists were led by communists all over the world during anticolonial and anti-imperial struggles in the 20th century.
And that's true, but "during anticolonial and anti-imperial struggles in the 20th century" is an important qualifiying statement.

>>2531742
>This. Don't quote me but I remember studies proving rightoids always automatically benefit from immigration being the topic
I think the same holds for centrist and center-left parties. Kamala Harris actually campaigned on being tougher on the border than Trump, but she lost. There's a funny (albeit tragic and a bit sad) thing that I see anons do where they'll say real communists are not like those leftards and they propose basically doing what Ezra Klein says the Democrats should do.

>>2531838
>Kamala Harris actually campaigned on being tougher on the border than Trump, but she lost.
What is your point here? She was obviously lying

>>2531837
And it takes a constant barrage of chuddy propaganda in msm to get those negative numbers, almost like we are basically apatride hippies when stripped of spooks

Leftists got psyopped by capitalists into being pro immigration and therefore destroyed their ability to be popular with the working class (including with the first and 2nd gen immigrant working class)

Now they cope with this by soft nihilism (third worldism, China navel gazing, taking sides in random wars around the world).

>>2531891 (me)

Admitting you were taken for a ride on immigration and changing your position is the kind of Mao-to-Deng course changing and learning-from-mistakes that the Left can make to improve its chances of success in politics (both electoral and non electoral).

>>2531853
The proof is in the pudding. Sahra Wagenknecht in Germany has tried to do this sorta-left politics but with social conservatism and migration restrictions, but she hasn't performed well. Because if migration is your #1 issue, why not vote for the AfD? Die Linke meanwhile did better than expected on a cost-of-living platform.

I don't think Zohran Mamdani is a revolutionary BTW (and also different country / context) but he's an immigrant who is just blowing the competition out of the water.

You know I think Wagenknecht was partly a creation of the German media. I'm not German and don't know a lot about it, but she was on T.V. a lot. Well, the media likes lefty renegades who say right-wing things for a bourgeois audience that doesn't want to think of themselves as right-wing ogres. Mamdani was hated by the New York press including the New York Times. Billionaire-funded dark money groups (with funds from Bill ACK-man) tried to present him as this menacing, dark-looking foreigner who hates the Jews. Again, an alien. Now the NYT is starting to be nice to him because he's going to be the next mayor.

>>2531891
Such a good idea, yet our girl kamala the border czar lost… I know! Tthe left needs to reject women too to finally get the gusano vote and win?

>>2531804
>Why I trust two sources that both have lied on this issue frequently and both have a monetary incentive to lie about the numbers?
I dont like the fact this source disagrees with my narrative so its untrue

>>2531341

Still waiting for an explanation from OP what the connection is between a person's legal citizenship status and their propensity for acts of sexual violence.

>>2531853
Well, when you're willing to throw one group of people under the bus, why should anyone trust you? Again, the issue isn't the migrants (who are often just struggling families seeking a better life), but the role that the "migrants" play in your own politics, which are necessary to sustain your own politics in some kind of way, and which can also be substituted for some other "alien" group.

Wagenknecht is also a good counter to the idea that people are just not exposed to these ideas. I'd need someone from Germany to weigh in but it seems like she got a lot more airtime and magazine profiles written up on her than Heidi Reichinnek did (tattooed leftard apparently hated by the workers, who led her party to its best result in years)

>>2531933
Because whos gonna trust a left party to be truly Anti immigration when they left in general has been pro immigration for 40 years? Still BSW got 5% of the popular vote which is impressive for a brand new party in a country with like 10 major political parties. Sure AOC clones can win a lot more seats in progressive places around the US but that's not actually going to help socialism at all.

>>2532374
>brand new party
<look inside
>chuddy die linke split
Nah racist trostkyists will again be irrelevant this time

>>2532402
To be clear, here is the actual vote share result compared to last election

CDU/CSU (talked about curbing migration, and has actually taken concrete steps to do after election) - 28% from 24%

AfD (no comment needed) - 20% from 10%

SPD (talked about curbing migration but was responsible for migration for many years so no one trusted them) - 16% from 25%

Die Linke (didn't talk migration, focused on left economics) - 9% from 5%

BSW (anti migration and also focused on left economics ) 5% from 0%

Greens (part of the former ruling coalition that brought migration into Germany over many years) 11% from 14%

FDP (part of the former ruling coalition, pro migration) - 4% from 11%.

So overall, the pro migration and former parties that brought migration suffered severely. Anti migration parties increased a lot.

It's extremely obvious that migration is the single biggest thing affecting politics of all Western countries. If Trump had his exact same policies but was pro migration he wouldn't have won even 2% of the popular vote.

You can keep ignoring this reality by pretending that edge cases like Die Linke matter.

>>2531949
It's so true Trump is considering anmesty for illegals like Reagan. His deportation order does not cover the agrucultural, service, or hospitality industry.
https://cis.org/Richwine/Oped-Trumps-New-Amnesty-Would-Cover-About-Two-Million-Illegal-Immigrants

>>2531933
>>2531956
Pointing to someone who is also obviously lying is stupid. Why would they fare well in polling or get any votes, it's extremely transparent. The fact that the media tries to split of voters from anti-immigration parties, does not make the left seem like any kind of resistance to oligarchs.

>>2530843
<what do we do?
abolish capitalism and seize the means of production

>>2531891
How did you get psyoped? What were you watching to become brainwashed?

Let every single person in and give them a nice house, anyone who complains gets shot

>>2531040
I agree that anti-immigration sentiment didn't define politics in let's say the '70s as it does today, even though some European societies were already mixed at that point (mostly the countries with the biggest colonial empires).

The relatively recent deterioration in living conditions and increased competition for well-paying jobs coincided with greatly increased immigration. No matter how you analyze it, workers WILL connect the most immediate societal change they see (more non-white on the streets) with the difficulties they have with making a living, if they aren't already being lead by a vanguard (and in 2015 the vast majority wasn't).

What do we do about the international jewish conspiracy my fellow leftists, you can see that Herr "totenkopf" Platner has a lot of votes, when will the left stop be psyoped by the (((globalists))) and tackle this question? This is why we loose you know!

Humans are supposed to migrate around the world. We've done it for 300,000 years. Why should we have to stop now?

>>2535931
humans have been killed for 300,000 years for migrating where their not wanted too.

Immigration is ok. It is under bourge, I just want to work less, so for me, as an immigrant, it is no use. Low paid, long hours. For me as a citizen, it is no use! I can't find anything that is not full work day.

>>2535940
>humans have been killed for 300,000 years for migrating where their not wanted too.

No, that's actually a rather recent phenomenon.

>>2536313
>its muh human nature

What do we do about defecation?

>>2535931
Go migrate to a non-white country then

>>2536295
How the fuck do you know?

>>2536984

The modern concept of borders and citizenship did not exist until the 19th century and the era of nation-states.

>>2537064
pretty sure the concept of killing foreigners is as old as humanity

>>2537077
historically, more often foreigners were the ones doing the killing (logic, you dont move toward people more dangerous than yourself), and displaced population often happened because they themselves were getting invaded and killed by kingdoms/empires in expansion and so went the other direction to settle.
But mostly population movement were peaceful, because more people settling land was beneficial to local powers as long as they werent a challenge to the local rule, because shit wasnt centralized and standardized at all, and everything was very local so a guy from 1000km away wasnt that much different from a guy 100km away
so approaching this with a modern mindset is a bit ridiculous

>>2530926
<My greatest hope is that a red-brown coalition saves the day (after all growing the economy by forcing enterprises to invest in labour-saving technology as part of national plan is the only way to actually end immigration, not by achieving growth by increasing the mass of exploited people by bringing them from abroad), but that would be pretty hard to achieve if the basis of the identity of the left and right is hating each other.

uh, you had me until this line. Red-Brown is fucking stupid and after the immigrants the left is next on the list of people to exterminate if history is any guide

>>2531717
<Marx and Engels' position is not the same as that of Third Worldists who refuse to organize for the common interest of all workers of all nationalities, regressing to a moralistic position of pity for Third World workers and resentment against First World workers.
some versions of third worldist is radlib white guilt wrapped in marxist language

1. Fucking (((them)))
2. Building normal living conditions in Arab countries after bombings and wars
3. Voluntary-forced deportation
4. ???
5. PROFIT!

>>2530926
I am the fascist who made the other thread and I agree with this. Too bad that it won't happen. Just to let you know i will probably sympathise with you when we get rid of all the non whites owo

>>2537064
The concept of territorial behaviour goes back to chimpanzees

>>2530926
well said

castrate rapists
simple as

>>2530926
we should be pro-immigration. not because it's a le good thing to do, but because it's important for leveling the value of labor power. we should couple increased immigration with policies that dispossesses the peasantry worldwide. this would be an excellent way to push history forwards
>My greatest hope is that a red-brown coalition saves the day
consider necking yourself

>>2537814

Yeah but the "territory" would be a pond or a bush or a dead animal, not an entire fucking continent.

>>2537077

Until quite recently in history, almost everyone in the world was a foreigner to everyone else. If you travelled more than 50 miles in any direction you would be in a foreign land with foreign people speaking a foreign language.

>>2530848
>Job: Teacher
Lel

>>2537846
If only it would be that simple,for some reason liberts started to yell fascist when italy started doing that

>>2537859
There isn't a industrial base for a socialist economy isn't there yet in Eastern Europe, trying to force a revolution would be retarded.

It might work in western europe where the tension between the burgeoise and worker's have boiled which may result in a revolution

>>2538444
To clarify as to why Eastern Europe isn't ready, it is because they live in a semi-peripheral state; in other words, they are integrated into global capitalism mainly through foreign-owned industries, service sectors, and cheap labour markets.

Therefore, our capital is mainly controlled by foreign corporations and is domestically weak, as well as the fact that unions are either co-opted by the neoliberal or just too weak.

We would first need to use coercive power to state power and policy to (a) steer foreign investment toward upgrading local capacity, which would be done by using FDI screening, targeted conditions, and industrial policy to steer foreign firms to upgrade local supply chains,

(b) build domestic productive actors via industrial policy and public finance i.e., subsidies, public procurement, concessional finance and tech support for domestically headquartered firms and worker cooperatives in sectors where the region can be competitive

(c) strengthen labour and cooperative institutions

Only after we managed to do that could we be ready for market socialism.

>>2538451
you're right that development is needed. but to preclude at the outset the possibility of revolution is silly. after all, Russia in 1917 was extremely backwards

>>2538516
Ye and it degenerated into an revisionist oligarchy which dogmatised the dialectic, no thank you

>>2538444
>There isn't a industrial base for a socialist economy isn't there yet in Eastern Europe, trying to force a revolution would be retarded.
you mean like in the soviet union?

>>2537859
>lowering wages is progressive
what?

>>2537064
this is true. as i show here: >>2524559
the decline of empire generally coincides with increased nationalism, since empire in itself must be international.

>What do we do about immigration?
Speed up the bureaucratic process for legal migration and require every migrant to join a union.

>>2538577
what would constitute illegal immigration?

>>2538578
People who'd repeatedly avoid this process legal migration.

>>2538582
and the only law is to join a union?

>>2538584
Join a union and work for a certain amount of time, of course. If you have health conditions that make it impossible to work, or if you're a child or a single parent escaping war or genocide, you would be freed from this requirement. That is also assuming that the nature of work isn't as inhumane as currently under capitalism. Ideally, you would have a 30-hour work week in general, universal health/childcare and the workplace would be democratized at the very least.

>>2538542
t. Robert Conquest

>>2531543
What I'm saying goes beyond the machinations of the state. I'm outright saying it doesn't matter what the "real" reason is behind (mass) migration.
I'm concerned with why people care at all. Which says a lot more about them than whatever system they think they're living in.
I also don't buy into this "the media told me this!" excuse people come up with. Like I was browsing r/europe (inb4 >reddit) earlier today, and there was this woman who admitted she "was racist" when she was poor, but then she started to do a little better and then "lol I was no longer racist" because she wasn't "competing" (with those "ethnics") anymore.
The assumption here is that it's reasonable at all to share this attitude. Natural even! (as one commenter stated) But it isn't. Because when I was in her place, what I felt was solidarity. And not even when I was out on the streets and could barely afford to buy bread did I blame "brown people", jews, women, etc. for what I was experiencing.

I also don't see see the value in pointing out who's doing it, as opposed to critiquing the attitude itself (immigration as something to be "solved", xenophobia and racism as 'natural' responses to poverty). Saying its a zionist ethnonationalist propaganda doesn't necessarily mean it's false.

>>2538691
as i have already said, the volk are racist
there is nothing more to it

>>2538451
>>2538444
>>2538516
Nirvana-attainer analysis. Consider this instead: https://c4ss.org/content/24150

What is the social basis of capitalism? Social relations mediated through capital and the commodity form. So why would abolishing this have anything to do with "building the productive forces"?
>>2531717
I think entertaining separatism even in face of (bourgeois) chauvinism is a mistake. As seen in the USSR. The alternative is splitting the world into a collection of bantustans, which is what we have today: Capital moves (mostly) freely, workers (mostly) don't. And this is the true goal of separatism; the creation of new plantations where the new nascent national capital and its bourgeoisie can exploit its workers.
There's nothing worthwhile or salvageable in nationalism as a "socialist" project.

>>2538696
Maybe some people are more easily frightened than others, but thinking this makes a good argument against immigration (brown people bad!) is bad faith. Or at the very least, the people who think like this aren't owning their racism. Instead they do this thing where they pretend their tribalism is only natural, or they tell you to stare at the graphs they copied from facebook or their tabloid of choice. Whilst none of that explains their attitude itself.

The issue here is a lack of introspection and (moral) courage. You can see this in OP where there's the assumption it's only reasonable to assume an immigrant who was told to leave the country was going to sexual assault a kid. And immigration is something the "left" has to solve.

>>2538691
Some people straight up don't like the way foreigners look, their cultures, their food, their language/accent. That makes up like 50% of anti immigration. Another 50% is economic, like competition for jobs or welfare smooching etc. Do you really not know this?

>>2538743
>Or at the very least, the people who think like this aren't owning their racism
>The issue here is a lack of introspection and (moral) courage.
precisely, but there is a dilemma here, where many people may genuinely be racist, or even conditionally racist (e.g. my mate is black) yet it is profoundly un-civil to be openly racist (something these people implicitly recognise). so then, is it "better" to live in an openly racist society, or a society of closet racists?