What do you think about German far-left political party named Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice aka BSW?
Are they true communist redpilled comrades? Do they have any future? Will they replace Die Linke and would/will you vote for that party if were/are a German?
>>2551515Putinist social democrats. An extremely disgusting form of fascism.
>What do you think about German far-left political party named Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice aka BSW?
> "Far left"
I don't know much about the people in BSW, but Sahra Wagenknecht is not "far left" at all. She's a Ordoliberal in economics. The fact that Sahra Wagenknecht is deemed "far left" just shows the political illiteracy of people.
>>2551515irredeemably cringe
social conservatism and vocal anti-immigrationism = clinical mental retardation, particularly as a minor party which can only adopt these policies for signalling purposes since they'll never be in a position to legislate on them.
a gullible idiot too interested in the stupid russia-ukraine war might hold up their FP stance as a reason to defend them, but
>In an August 2024 interview she stated "I will always defend Israel's right to exist. [Israel does have the right to defend itself against] Hamas and its terrible attack in October."lol lmao.
>>2551558Are they true socialists it's just interesting.
>>2551567almost nobody is a true socialist, so no. at best a sort of degenerated post-social-democrat playing with a more radical aesthetic.
>>2551594
true communist redpilled comrades are famously averse to breaking the rules
Socially reactionary & hard right, economically left.
Also hardcore Z Putin cocksleeves. Ukraine may be bad NATOid fascist dogs for all kinds of reasons I don't need to repeat, but that doesn't mean mindlessly worshipping Russia is the answer either.
We have seen this so-called union of red and brown before.
We have seen the Nation Bolsheviks, the National Syndicalists, the Strasserites, the Duginists.
She is merely taking their long debunked platform and ideology, dressing it in different clothes, and saying that it should implemented via votes and reform, rather than by revolutionary means.
>>2551601>redpilled comradesthis is a thread about wealthy politicians lmfao
>>2551515If I were german I'd kill myself, so no vote
A genuine waste of time for Die Linke, in a literal and metaphorical sense. Her criticism of her party were correct but her solution was absolutely terrible. Classic "not me though!" critic of the left like Orwell.
>anti- immigration
>believe in the nation and the volk
>welfare state
>with red color
They're a Marx reincarnation
>>2551836>anti-immigrants AND leftistDare I say… based!?
>>2551614Only this thing makes them true socialists?
socdem party that gets shilled by fiscally Keynesian socially conservative mfers
German Tulsi but more left
Absolute flop. Fumbled the bag bigtime/
>>2551571die linke is succdem too?
>>2551519Could you elaborate on this (with some links if possible)? I have heard contradictory things where her economic orientation was described as social-liberal to social democrat to "market socialist" to central planning advocate.
sounds like the female german george galloway
>>2552113Eh, nah. Galloway is way more of an outsider and a crank figure. Wagenknecht has been a mainstream politician in Germany for a long time. She appears on television a lot. Or did. I don't know what the situation is like right now.
>>2552109Her views on economics are not that different from Klaus Schwab (I think?). It's kind of funny but one reason he became such a bogeyman on far right is that he criticized free-market fundamentalism and promotes a form of ordoliberalism. Wagenknecht called it "creative socialism" in her book, but it's not really socialism, it's part of a long, penny-pinching tradition in German history that's skeptical of the American and Anglo-style liberalism where you just let markets rip and see where the chips fall. That's way too disorderly for Germans. Generally speaking ordoliberals advocate for a state regulated market economy with anti-trust laws and a big focus on order and rules and price stability (and not going into debt). Schwab took to calling his version "stakeholder capitalism." Others have called it a "social market economy," and she has used that term as well.
>In both "Freedom instead of Capitalism" and "Prosperity without Greed," Wagenknecht draws heavily on the writings of ordoliberals such as Walter Eucken, Alexander Rüstow, and Alfred Müller-Armack, and evinces a certain nostalgia for the so-called ‘golden years,’ the ‘economic miracle’ of postwar West Germany, when ordoliberalism, as a political ideology, was arguably at its most influential. Wagenknecht portrays ordoliberalism as an alternative to neoliberalism understood as a doctrine of market radicalism, the destruction of the welfare state and rampant privatization, and sees Eucken, Rüstow, and Müller-Armack as proponents of a third way between capitalism and a planned economy. In other words, Wagenknecht contests the understanding of ordoliberalism as a German variant of neoliberalism by interpreting it as a German alternative to neoliberalism. She strongly implies that her own political vision of a “creative socialism” has more in common with the ordoliberal tradition than the current neo-liberal policies of the FDP, CDU, and SPD.[…]
>In "Freedom instead of Capitalism," Wagenknecht approvingly notes that “the ordoliberals assumed that a social market economy that is governed by strict rules and robust social legislation is no longer opposed to the common good but can serve it. But they also understood that the state had a primary obligation to ensure a social equilibrium [sozialer Ausgleich], and that this couldn’t be left to the market.” She goes on to quote Müller-Armack’s definition of the social market economy as a “consciously steered, social economy” as opposed to a “laissez-faire, liberal economy”. “The proponents of ordoliberalism,” she maintains, lobbied for robust social legislation, including “a functioning pension system and health insurance system [and] robust unemployment provisions.”https://www.ideology-theory-practice.org/blog/are-we-all-ordoliberals-now >>2552164I am aware of what ordoliberalism is, but did not know that Wagenknecht seemingly believed in it so strongly.
Its very telling actually that she conceives of it as in opposition to neoliberalism. Because in fact social-liberalism, ordoliberalism & libertarianism are just different contending wings if neoliberalism.
One of main divides being what to do with 'market emergent' monopolies & oligopolies; Anti-trust breakup for ordos & relative laissez faire for liberts.
Both agree to some degree with government welfare as stabilizing force; Though if memory serves Hayek kept changing his mind on what kind of & how much welfare provision.
Needless to say, all this is very far from even a partial & timid amount of central planning that even social democrats might support.
>>2552113Galloway is total schizo and con artist, but an amazing orator.
He tells the press he has BSW-like policies, but then he sends leaflets to white neighbours full of Hitlerian language, and simultaneously sends leaflets to Muslim neighbourhoods calling for global jihad.
>>2552272>I am aware of what ordoliberalism is, but did not know that Wagenknecht seemingly believed in it so strongly.It's not hard to look up Wagenknecht's ordoliberal views. Unfortunately, since most people are illiterate on economics, and economic history and tradition, most people think her economic views are somehow "left coded" or the worst possible interpretation "Strasserism".
The far right neo-fedual, anti proletarian, agrarian idealogy, that some very illiterate people think is when you combine socialism with racism. Idiots!
>>2552380>he sends leaflets to white neighbours full of Hitlerian language, and simultaneously sends leaflets to Muslim neighbourhoods calling for global jihad./ourguy/?
>far-left
You mean SocDem? Wagenknecht loves capitalism and is a reactionary
>>2551517German lib detected. Who gives a fuck if they're pro Russia? You want your leftist parties to be NATO shills?
>>2552641Tell us what you mean by leftist
>>2552632Not him but I will call you a zigger
>>2552642A party that can be identified as being on the left wing of whatever political spectrum they operate under. Usually this is determined by the party having an anticapitalist or progressive outlook
Any leftist party in an EU country must make exit from the EU and exit from NATO it's top priority. If not, then they are imperialists. The migrant question is a diversion. A European party which promotes EU-NATO exit, is against further privatization of the national economy but which is also anti-immigrant must still be supported by leftists.
>>2552641French and German 'leftists' are deranged nowadays. They have become so obsessed with Putin, migrants and climate change, the neoliberals manipulate them in supporting the neoliberal EU-NATO order easily.
>>2551652So anyone who is not an insane Russophobe and who treats Russia like any other nation is a Z cocksleeve now?
In what sense is Russia's evil worse or even comparable to the USA?
>>2552657That is what they actually believe anon. They really think Russia is some sort of super mega evil place, comparable to or sometimes even considered worse than the US. That's why they are so upset about this lady not being a simp for Nato. Look at how often the putin thing gets brought up in this thread, like even if she was an honest to god russophile who wanted eastern germany to join with the russian federation, I would still not give a fuck
Russoids are just eastern burgers simple as
>>2552655climate change is no joke.
>>2552655>Putin, migrants and climate changeI mean those are existential threats to them, aren't they?
>>2552668No, that would be the poles although there is a large section of a comprador porky that cucktin allows to exist
>>2552657>>2552660Brainwashed into intentionally failing to understand my post and ignoring what I said then saying this shit without irony.
Why don't you actually come to Europe you semen drinking zigger schizos?
The communist position when two capitalist powers fight each other is revolutionary defeatism.
Not siding with the USA and NATO, not with Azov Nazis, nor with the ultra-Orthodox Christian theocratic Russian oligarchy.
>>2552653> If not, then they are imperialistsDo you think this really needs to be a priority for a socialist party, rather than improvement of their home conditions?
Sage
>>2552852<acksually its anti-communist to support america and the UK in fighting the nazis in ww2, revolutionary defeatism is the only true communist position in inter-imperialist warsfuck off, banderite cocksucker
>>2552852This retard doesn't even know revolutionary defeatism applies only to your own country. Bro you're literally complaining a german politician sucks up too much to the enemies of their own bourgeoisie, because of some metaphysical disdain you have for the "ultra-Orthodox Christian theocratic Russian oligarchy" that doesn't effect you at all. And you have the gall to call others brainwashed lmao
>Why don't you actually come to EuropeIm european dumbass
>>2552653it needs to be THE top priority
Anything else is meaningless the greens-level bullshitry
>>2552899>anti-communist to support america and the UK in fighting the nazis in ww2Yes? It's obviously anti-Communist to support conservative capitalist states? Just as it's equally anti-Communist to support that Nazis?
Have you literally never read a word of theory, not a single word of Lenin, you fucking liberal?
Obsessively repeating Z-cult buzzwords doesn't change the above facts.
I've stated my opposition to NATO and Ukraine more times than I can count in our discussion but you're obviously illiterate and can't fathom the concept of a leftist being opposed to all capitalist sides.
You are nothing more than an extremely low intellect libtard who has never read a book, cosplaying as a the most insane stereotype of a third worldist and therefore refusing to believe Russia can ever do any wrong. Grow up.
>>2552922>You should support capitalism and oligarchy in other countries, because it isn't your country! It's only had when capitalism is in your own state.This is so hyper retarded it doesn't require a rebuttal. Communism is internationalist.
Nowhere in any theory does it say "btw you should support the forces of capital when it happens in countries your own government dislikes".
By your own logic Communists in Poland should've supported the Nazis. You understand how stupid your weird anti-Communist, third worldist position is now?
In addition, when Stalin made one of his many falsifications of Marxism by implementing SIOC, he did not mean Socialism should ONLY ever be in one country and we should support capitalism everywhere else. You utter imbecile.
Holy fuck I am surrounded by IDIOTS.
These people hate Marxism, hate Communism, hate theory.
It's all just an excuse and an aesthetic for these internet liberal third worldist to abuse when taking a side in foreign intercapitalist wars. It is sick.
>>2552944you are the idiot, not those who surround you,
you would literally let the nazis win ww2 because 'muh ideological purity', you stupid fucking moron. you have no sense of how to actually govern or implement politics in reality.
DO you think the USSR was actually The REal Fascists for doing the molotov-ribbentrop pact to buy time to re-arm? If so you are just a fucking useful idiot to nazis.
>>2552944<I've stated my opposition to the Nazis and to America multiple times! How can anyone think i'm a nazi just because i've been sabotaging allied weapons factories?!?!?! REVOLUTIONARY DEFEATISM!!!!fucking nazi collaborating traitor, you are the one that has clearly not read a single iota of actual theory or history.
>>2552957Being opposed to Nazis and to the US is not supporting Nazis, just as opposing Ukraine and Russia doesn't make me a Banderite.
If sticking to Marxist theory and principles is unworkable in your opinion, why don't you just admit you're an unprincipled liberal already?
>The molotov-ribbentrop pact was good actually!! I refuse to believe even the most deranged xitter stalinoid anti-communist internet ML-third worldist would say this. You're just posting bait now.
>>2552964Apparently in the eyes of liberal ML-third worldists, opposing the Nazis makes you a Nazi…
>>2552970Its dialectical. On the otherhand ᴉuᴉlossnW and Hitler are anti-imperialist and on the otherhand ᴉuᴉlossnW and Hitler are evil westoids.
>>2552977They call me a purity obsessed idiot and a Nazi for rejecting both the Anglo-Capitalist forces and the Nazis in favour of choosing Communism.
But by their own logic these liberal third worldist ziggers would've supported Hitler in WW2 just for opposing the West.
The fact he murders civilians and starts wars and engages in capitalist economics would be irrelevant to them, just as any negative actions by non-western capitalist states are irrelevant to them today.
That's the logical conclusion of transposing their beliefs into that historical era and they know it.
She
- is not reactionary. Like not at all. Only liberals, Anti-Germans and other shitbots of that sort defame her as reactionary all the time. She opposes substituting male pronouns with neuter and female pronouns in spoken German language and the introduction of * and underscores in written German language which looks absolutely retarded, so she is right about it and most German proles agree with her. It is pushed by neoliberal Green feminist types who do not strive for women's rights, but actually really really hate men and want to install a matriarchy.
- is fiercely anti-imperialist
- does not cuck to the Israel lobby,
- does not cuck to atlanticists/NAFOids, does not cuck to the EU
- is sort of pro-Russia, however she is not a "Putinist" or complete Russia cuck
- is ambivalent or friendly towards the PRC
- does not cuck to the haute bourgeoisie like BDI, financial lobby, landlords etc. however she does cuck to mid-sized and small business owners
- is against unregulated and more immigration
- Wagenknecht used to be properly socialist but turned into a socdem/ordoliberal during university, westoid unis are really professional at brainwashing students into becoming liberals, it's actually impressive.
- she is not revolutionary, center-left at best. Sort of like Sanders
- she has parroted stupid westoid anti-communist memes about the DDR and USSR (muh totalitarianism, muh Stasi) several times while she knows better from personal experience, but it's what West-German boomers in her socdem/ordoliberal bubble and small business owners who support her want to hear. I really, really, really hate that opportunism.
- there are a couple decent former hard-left Linke members such a Sevim Dagdelen with BSW, however some local chapters attracted a lot of career politician types who came out as disgusting CDU/AfD types over time in terms of economics and social policy
- right now Wagenknecht appears to be weakened inside her own party, she might step back
- some based former comrades of her's like Dieter Dehm have turned against her as well
- BSW looks like a total mess right now and on top of about to be taken over by center-rightoid AfD type petit-bourgeois pricks
I voted BSW along DKP when it was new and looked fairly promising, but probably won't do it again if they don't get their shit together, that is get rid of the "conservative" petit-bourgeois center-rightoids. Not sure about supporting Die Linke either at this point, they do have decent takes on landlord-ism and are even vocally anti-capitalist, which is BSW not at all.
I'll propbaly vote DKP or MLPD again to be on the safe side.
>>2552944>obviously anti-Communist to support conservative capitalist states<when they're fighting fascism alongside a socialist stateyou're truly retarded
>>2552998>You should support capitalism… because they fought against other capitalists… with the help of a social democrat Amazing, keep going
>>2553000<actually its better for the nazis to materially win an actual war, rather than for me to ever sully my ideological purity by giving their opponents qualified/critical support, even just verballythe smartest, most communist communists, if u disagree ur ackshually redfash
>>2551515Its like a 1st world war german socdem supporting tzarist emperor.
>>2552944>Communism is internationalistInternationalism means not doing the bidding of your bourgeois overlords in their imperialist wars you fucking moron. Especially as a european, it is our imperialist governments that cause this whole mess in the first place. You are perpetuating their goals with your petulant tantrum about le ebil ruskies
>Nowhere in any theory does it say "btw you should support the forces of capital when it happens in countries your own government dislikes"Really now?
<During a reactionary war a revolutionary class cannot but desire the defeat of its government.
<This is axiomatic, and disputed only by conscious partisans or helpless satellites of the social-chauvinists. Among the former, for instance, is Semkovsky of the Organising Committee (No. 2 of its Izvestia), and among the latter, Trotsky and Bukvoyed,[2] and Kautsky in Germany. To desire Russia’s defeat, Trotsky writes, is “an uncalled-for and absolutely unjustifiable concession to the political methodology of social-patriotism, which would replace the revolutionary struggle against the war and the conditions causing it, with an orientation—highly arbitrary in the present conditions—towards the lesser evil” (Nashe Slovo No. 105).
<This is an instance of high-flown phraseology with which Trotsky always justifies opportunism. A “revolutionary struggle against the war” is merely an empty and meaning less exclamation, something at which the heroes of the Second International excel, unless it means revolutionary action against one’s own government even in wartime. One has only to do some thinking in order to understand this. Wartime revolutionary action against one’s own government indubitably means, not only desiring its defeat, but really facilitating such a defeat. ("Discerning reader”: note that this does not mean “blowing up bridges”, organising unsuccessful strikes in the war industries, and ·in general helping the government defeat the revolutionaries.)
<The Defeat of One’s Own Government in the Imperialist War -Lenin
>By your own logic Communists in Poland should've supported the NazisBy my logic the polish communists should've sided with the soviet union, which they did obviously
>In addition, when Stalin made one of his many falsifications of Marxism by implementing SIOC, he did not mean Socialism should ONLY ever be in one country and we should support capitalism everywhere else. You utter imbecileNobody is saying we should "support capitalism" you imbecile
>It's all just an excuse and an aesthetic for these internet liberal third worldist to abuse when taking a side in foreign intercapitalist wars. It is sick.Your projection is bright enough to light up a football stadium
>>2552996>there are a couple decent former hard-left Linke members such a Sevim Dagdelen with BSW, however some local chapters attracted a lot of career politician types who came out as disgusting CDU/AfD types over time in terms of economics and social policy … BSW looks like a total mess right now and on top of about to be taken over by center-rightoid AfD type petit-bourgeois pricks … Not sure about supporting Die Linke either at this point, they do have decent takes on landlord-ism and are even vocally anti-capitalist, which is BSW not at all.I guess Die Linke benefited from focusing on inflation and cost of living. This is a theme in politics around the world right now. It's a lesson for the Z gang posters here. It doesn't seem like that has many
political expressions, rather it exists more among a kind of YouTube intelligentsia.
I showed my (liberal American) mom the Bundestagwahlspots from the last election and asked her to rank them in the order she liked the most. Note this is a woman who doesn't know a word of German so how would she respond to the vibes. Die Linke came first. (They cheated a little, Jan van Aken is wearing a "Tax the Rich" shirt.) The BSW spot was the only one where she had no opinion positive nor negative. There wasn't anything "there." Who was it for? Meanwhile Alice Wiedel freaked her out while Merz and Scholz looked like smarmy douchebags.
>>2553045You clearly don't even understand the meaning of the text you just posted.
Revolutionary defeatism doesn't equate to simply supporting the other side to your own government, nor to simply supporting the opposing army.
Desiring the defeat of your government doesn't simply equate to always siding with their enemies in all cases.
That is called campism and is a type of intellectual retardation. Your nation being bad doesn't mean all it's enemies are good.
You use that twisted misunderstanding to say we should all be anti-communist, third worldist, Z Putinists like you because correctly identify that Ukraine and NATO are also pretty bad in their own ways.
But, by that same logic you rely on, the Russian soldiers should all support Ukraine in support of revolutionary defeatism against their own side, the capitalist oligarchical Russian state.
But you clearly don't support that stance, because you don't actually believe this line of logic, you just use it to explain why you think everyone should support Russia.
The truth is both Ukraine and NATO are demented, capitalist, endorse fascist groups and totally fucked up, as is Russia.
I've repeatedly stated this like 1000 times but your apparent ideological refusal to comprehend my words (due to Zigger, campist, third worldist brainwashing) stops you from understanding it.
The solution is as you said, revolutionary defeatism. That means revolutionary defeatism. That means for all sides and it doesn't simply mean support the opposing army or that everyone on the opposing side is good.
Yet you'll continue to call me a Ukrainian shill because your loyalty to Putinism outweighs your willingness to understanding my posts or to understand Marxism.
Don't bother wasting your time on theory until you overcome this bizarre undying loyalty to Russia at all costs, clearly it is pointless.
>>2552912>my favorite older lady is someone who supports Palestine and the other supports IsraelNo integrity, huh bud?
>>2553133More like lack of socialism.
>>2552649So you're a liberal?
>>2552996>She is not reactionary>Wagenknecht used to be properly socialist but turned into a socdem/ordoliberal during universityHoly zigger cope
They rigged it so hard. She had like 4.997% of vote so she missed 5% to have seats
>>2553068>You clearly don't even understand the meaning of the text you just postedYou don't know what he's talking about and you're coping. He's saying you should actually wish and facilitate the defeat of your own government during imperialist wars, as to convert them into civil wars. His point isn't to be concerned with some kind of both sides le bad, or "you can't support X country!!" but to actually work towards the downfall of your own bourgeoisie.
>Revolutionary defeatism doesn't equate to simply supporting the other side to your own government, nor to simply supporting the opposing army. It means to struggle for the defeat of one's own government during imperialist wars
>Desiring the defeat of your government doesn't simply equate to always siding with their enemies in all cases.Who said that it was? Why are you making up all these arguments nobody made?
>That is called campism and is a type of intellectual retardationYou are such a brainlet dude lmao
>Your nation being bad doesn't mean all it's enemies are good.This is just projection on your part
>You use that twisted misunderstanding to say we should all be buzz buzz buzz buzz Ukraine and NATO are also pretty bad in their own waysYeah you could call nato, the largest armed wing of reaction the world has ever seen, founded with the explicit purpose of fighting communism "pretty bad in their own ways" lmfao.
>But, by that same logic you rely on, the Russian soldiers should all support Ukraine in support of revolutionary defeatism against their own side, the capitalist oligarchical Russian state. No, because Russia is not an imperialist country. Defeating it would net no discernable result towards socialist revolution, even if the russian communists would be able to turn it into a victorious civil war, they'd immediately be crushed by the american imperialists and their allies. Whereas american and nato defeat clearly does much more than that to facilitate the downfall of the highest construction of imperialism yet.
>But you clearly don't support that stance, because you don't actually believe this line of logic, you just use it to explain why you think everyone should support Russia.I don't give a fuck who you "support" dude, my god it's so pathetic this idealist squirming of yours at anyone not denouncing le ebil ruskis. Like dude, you and Ursula von der Leyen should get together man, you'd really hit it off.
>The truth is both Ukraine and NATO are demented, capitalist, endorse fascist groups and totally fucked up, as is Russia. >I've repeatedly stated this like 1000 times but your apparent ideological refusal to comprehend my words (due to buzz buzz buzz) stops you from understanding it.>The solution is as you said, revolutionary defeatism. That means revolutionary defeatism. That means for all sides and it doesn't simply mean support the opposing army or that everyone on the opposing side is good.>Yet you'll continue to call me a Ukrainian shill because your loyalty to Putinism outweighs your willingness to understanding my posts or to understand Marxism. >Don't bother wasting your time on theory until you overcome this bizarre undying loyalty to Russia at all costs, clearly it is pointlessDude, you are such a delusional retard and you are projecting your own weird obsession with denouncing Putin at all costs unto me. I don't give a flying fuck about Putin, or the nation state of Russia. Im just not foaming at the mouth like a retard anytime someone speaks positively of the current direct enemies of my own bourgeoisie. MY own bourgeoisie who is right now busy enlarging the share of GDP spent on militarization for nato to 5% across the eu you dipshit. Increased militarization which they are directly justifying and manufacturing consent for by labeling anyone against it as a putin/russia supporter, by talking about how big and scary and evil russia is, all the while downplaying their own responsibility in originating this whole thing in the first place, just like you are doing in this thread right now.
>>2553246mussolina if you will
>>2551652>Also hardcore Z Putin cocksleevesShe said that the war she didn't think would happen was bad and illegal and that Putin was a criminal though. The thing she really wants is gazprom spice so the germans and europeans can get more treats, probably she would want to stay in NATO if she thought it was economically favorable for Germany and the EU.
>>2553268>The thing she really wants is gazprom spice so the germans and europeans can get more treats, probably she would want to stay in NATO if she thought it was economically favorable for Germany and the EU.She might genuinely believe that, along with other individuals in the German business community. However, if they had the choice between cheap gas and oil and treats, or toppling Putin, putting in Navalny, or a similar puppet, and getting the gas and oil almost for free, it would be a no-brainer to support NATO’s war.
>>2553266The point is you shouldn't do your ruling class' work for them by denouncing people for "supporting" their explicit enemies
>>2553361That's fine as an argument, but I'm not sure how much it matters, we've been going around in circles about this for years. I really don't think any of these people openly supporting Russia are on the upswing outside of Russia anyways, yeah? Doing that tends to have a self-marginalizing effect on people compared to taking more of a neutralist position (if you really wanted to stay out of it).
>>2553382Sahra does not support Israel.
I voted them into EU and state parliament. Not gonna do so anymore.
Sahra is based. I like her. She is not "far-left" but based af anyway.
Do not believe the lies about her being funded by Putin or something like that. It's just propaganda against the only existing pacifist force in politics.
She's not pro-russian or anything like that. She's just against NATO and doesn't want to keep funding the war machine. She wants peace and more diplomacy with Russia.
She isn't "anti-immigrant" or even "racist" as some people call her, she just, like any sane person, recognizes that we simply can't just let trillions of immigrants into the country without providing any resources to them - that will just lead to poverty, crime, etc. She recognizes that this will just result in people developing actual racist tendencies, not in helping any immigrants.
She was against obscure regulations during covid that everyone now knows didn't actually help anyone. She wanted more transparency and reason.
She refuses to participate in any stupid identity politics that don't actually help anyone. She doesn't use gender and queers as a shield, token and thing to center everything around. While I disagree with some of the things she said about trans ppl, they are overblown by the media to portray her as a transphobe.
These are the reasons the "The Left" party decided she was an enemy. She left the party before she could even get kicked out and made her own one.
Unfortunately, I think there are some major problems with it.
Some of the people in the BSW are very based aswell, take for example Fabio De Masi, lead candidate for the EU parliament elections.
Now look at the second candidate on the EU list. Who's that? Some random former SPD member who thinks the SPDs neoliberal reforms were a great idea??? Why is he a member of the party!? He doesn't fit into the party at all, except that he also wants peace with Russia. Why is he there??? He was called a "Quoten-SPDler" by some.
But that's just a minor issue compared to what happened in Thüringen.
The BSW party for the state of Thüringen is lead by a former anti-Wagenknecht pseudo-leftist politician. She wanted to kick Wagenknecht out of "The Left" party.
Then she thought her party might actually lose the elections (which actually seemed very likely) so she would not have a future within "The Left".
She joined the BSW to "prevent the AfD" which, if you translate from politician to any other language, means she's an opportunist and just wants her seat within parliament. She doesn't really fit into the party at all.
She lead the BSW in Thüringen, got very good election results, then decided to form a coalition government with SPD and THE FUCKING 'CDU' with a coalition contract that broke election promises.
Sahra Wagenknecht, the federal BSW party and many voters wanted to see this opportunist idiot get kicked out of the party.
Unfortunately, two things prevented this:
1. The federal government was disbanded and elections happened way earlier than planned. The federal BSW pretended like everything was allright again and ignored what happened in Thüringen in order to display some sort of inner strength to the public. But their voters aren't stupid and noticed of course.
2. Wagenknecht decided to let her party grow slowly and only let a small number of supporters and former colleagues join the party in order to make sure the party did not get flooded with idiots who wanted to abuse the party for different purposes. But not only did she let idiots in anyway, it also meant that most of the strong supporters and activits now didn't have a right to vote since they weren't actual party members, so they didn't manage to remove these idiots from their leadership position in Thüringen.
I think they are working on fixing some of the issues with it being way easier to join the party now, but unfortunately I think the damage is already done.
I think they lost the federal election because of it - even if, like they say (and I kinda think aswell) there were problems with the election and the BSW did actually achieve the 5% of votes required to join the federal parliament.
Maybe I might vote for them again in the future if they gain any relevance again for some reason.
tl;dr
- Sahra based
- some party members are based
- some party members are complete and utter idiots
- i think sadly the party might have no future because of past mistakes
>>2553369I think wether or not you are taking the von der Leyen/pro NATO stance vis-a-vis Russia does matter to an extent, whether the general public is more or less accepting of a pro Russia stance it's hard to say. From what I can tell attrition and the effects of Russian propeganda have done a decent bit to swing people towards an anti nato position, but it's still nowhere near the majority. It's not gonna win the revolution or anything, nor is it like some tool for recruiting or something, but getting upset at people, even denouncing people, casting them out for not denouncing the enemies of your own ruling class is counter productive and shows that you are still a shauvinist/imperialist at heart
>>2553244>as to convert them into civil warsAlright so how do you plan to win a civil war against the most armed state in the world
>>2553767By organizing the working class of course. The defeat of the united states as a bulwark of reaction and head of the capitalist economic order cannot be done without the government of that state suffering major military defeats and setbacks, which should be facilitated by the conscious working class of said country. So step numbero uno is to stop complaining about that governments military enemies
When I was in berlin I got to talking with a liberal Die Linke type, the election results had just come in and Wagenknecht's splinter party had come in really low. Something he was very excited about, as he considered her a weight on the party and this confirmed to him that they were better off without her. I knew in that instant that she was probably the most anti zionist politician in germany
>>2553807kys NAFO cancer
nta btw
>>2554264anti natoism/anti americanism is a popular force yes and that is the line that any socialist worth their salt should be pushing yes, especially during imperialist wars dumbass. That doesn't mean "let's launch wwIII", that's just your absurd strawman because you can't engage with what im actually saying. Besides the point what's "popular" (in your subjective view of the german masses) in a society who's ruling class's ideology determines the predominant narratives and shapes public perception is completely irrelevant
>>2553599lots of words to say "i'm a liberal"
>>2553056> Wagenknecht is someone you'd know about if you read a lot of political magazinesLiterally everybody knows her in Germany. She is a popular tv and media celeb.
>Die Linke people coming here to learn from the DSA, and they'd tell them to do door-to-door canvassing (which Americans really love doing for some reason), and the Germans would go do that and be like *knock knock*Interesting, i'm sure Die Linke has links to the DSA. Tiktok presence, a new charismatic leader who talks to the likes of Merz like an AK47 (Heidi) and literally knocking on doors and annoying people on the street is what they did in their campaign and it payed off. Die Linke is now the most popular party among young people. BSW on the other hand had just started out and neither possessed the infrastructure nor enough candidates and members to pull off something similar like an established party like Die Linke which is accepted in the bourgeois mainstream now as they got rid of the former anti-imperialist, anti-NATO wing (lead by Wagenknecht) and the last remaining MLs (Kommunistische Plattform is basically dead).
Also the election was most likely rigged against BSW. Liberals hate Wagenknecht and Höcke like they hate Cucktin himself, see the gloating NAFOid ITT.
>>2554298Lmao keep coping lol. I don't understand this obession with labelling critics of Wagenknecht as Ukrainian simps, I hated her before her split with Linke.
>>2554341>Also the election was most likely rigged against BSW. Liberals hate Wagenknecht and Höcke like they hate Cucktin himself, see the gloating NAFOid ITT.So your only evidence is that people don't like her? Just like a Trumper in 2020 lol.
Also that has be some massive cognitive dissonance to say that Wagenknecht is a popular tv and media personality (she really is) while painting her as an smol bean underdog since the split. You are telling me the person who brought Linke to its apex polling couldn't create and run a party if she really wanted to and tried? A lot of Bundestag members and ex-Linke members left with her. How can you say she doesn't have the infrastructure nor enough candidates and members? People like you tend to forget that she was polling at 7 to 8% (even reaching to 10%) at the start of the split while Linke got deleted in polling data.
I would argue she was only popular because she was distant and critical of Die Linke, and once she fully left the party and left it at 3%, it wasn't necessary to give her much air time or flattery afterwards. Plus naming a party after yourself screams cult of personality and it is clear she (or BSW members as well) overstated their ability to run a party.
>>2554379>Ukrainian simpsNAFOids do not simp Ukraine, NAFOids like you simp "the west".
>Just like a Trumper in 2020 lolHeul doch
>How can you say she doesn't have the infrastructure nor enough candidates and membersWhat exactly do you not understand about a party that had just been founded having too few and much less direct candidates on the list than an established party?
BSW 5k members, 3.5 million state funds, no mainstream media support, no network of local offices
die Linke 120k members, 33 million state funds, mainstream media support, broad network network of local offices plus a foundation
>it is clear she (or BSW members as well) overstated their ability to run a party.Sort of true, they certainly overestimated their chances to attract Linke, SPD and AfD voters and the ability to prevent wreckers like the Thuringian chapter from joining.
>>2554454>NAFOids do not simp Ukraine, NAFOids like you simp "the west".Semantics haggling? How pathetic.
>>2554454>What exactly do you not understand about a party that had just been founded having too few and much less direct candidates on the list than an established party?Lmao that sounds like a skill issue for her? It is not as if she created her party just before the election. This isn't even her first failure to launch a movement, Aufstehen so you can't pretend she is new to launching something. Again, her polling started high and she plummeted over time. Party size is more of her inability to turn supporters to members and networks. If she sharply declined during the election campaigning, I could see your point. But she steadly decline over the year leading up to her election.
>they certainly overestimated their chances to attract Linke, SPD and AfD votersThe people she is attracting do not exist anymore (socially conservative leftists). A mirage induced by being on the media bubble and constant flattery from far-right figures. They only needed her to browbeat Linke as too radlib, nothing more.
>>2554992
You is a retard, nobody take "socialist conservatives seriously"
>She categorically rejects the depraved child LGBT freakshows of the degenerated rentier class
So being a homophobic retard believing on gender metaphysicism is now a virtue???
>The voter base of "Die Linke" are childless young lower middle class women. Working class people actively vote against "Die Linke". That party would never organize a miner strike. It would call the miners "Nazis" and demand their summary execution in a four-page hate tirade.
The working class pretty sure voted in the CDU.. and what is your fucking point??? the die linke managed to do so much better in the election, despite being just as revisionist and bad as BSW, and they werent social conservative freaks like you
>>2554583>The people she is attracting do not exist anymore (socially conservative leftists). A mirage induced by being on the media bubble and constant flattery from far-right figures. They only needed her to browbeat Linke as too radlib, nothing more.^
>>2552655>Putin, migrants and climate changebro tried to sneak it in lmao
>>2555002Ziggers thrive on contradictions. there are many capitalists on Europe betting for a EU-Russia alliance.
>>2554331it is quite literally what you're arguing, so i have no clue why you're pretending you're actually just arguing a reasonable position rather than saying "We need to start third world war"
>>2555020It's literally not what im arguing dumbass, I never said that and if that's what you're getting from this then you're just a retard. How the fuck is holding a principled anti american/anti nato position equivalent to "we need to start ww3"? Do you even want revolution? Are you even a socialist at all?
>>2555031how exactly do you expect to "defeat NATO"? there is no large motivator to even go out for mass protests, you want to know the only way you can do that? starting ww3, restoring conscription and then having it drag out for several years, because otherwise there is quite literally no motivator for your "principled anti-american/anti nato" position to play out, no way you can win a civil war if you can't even capture one city
>>2555002What is the German 'Left' that Wagenknecht is supposedly attacking? Die Linke? Grüne? SPD?
>>2555033We let NATO do its thang then I guess?
>>2555033>how exactly do you expect to "defeat NATO"?In the context of the discussion we were having step number one is not falling in line with the bourgeoisie of your country and spazzing out whenever somebody mentions their military enemies in a positive light.
The thing is you assume we have some control over this or that we can or need to steer the bourgeoisie's warmachine in that direction when it is already well underway with or without or help. The european union is militarizing by the billions of euros right now, all over the place countries are already talking about drafts, getting more military personnel, etc. Resist that, organize to resist the agenda of your own bourgeoisie and organize for their downfall. Instead your reformist ass is here complaining about even the idea of socialist revolution as if it's advocating for a complete Armageddon
>>2555049>Russian/chinese imperialismlmao ok retard, call me when russia or china controls the world bank, the imf, the largest military force in human history by several gradations, with 800 military bases spread across the globe and the ruble or yuan serves as the world's reserve currency
>>2555054>russia and austria-hungary were far weaker than uk, france, germany during ww1 and could barely control their own territory>clearly this means they weren't imperialistretard
>>2555002>Wagenknecht is not accepted by the bourgeois mainstream but she's also a popular T.V. and media celeb?She was in 2024 the most popular politician in Germany still, so she got invited to tv shows a lot. In terms of economics and social policy she is entirely harmless as she likes to praise national small and mid-sized businesses and proposes some sort of Trump style protectionism mixed with basic succdem stuff like raising the minimum wage and getting rid of sanctions against unemployed people. However that doesn't mean the bourgeois mainstream agrees with her. It's quite the opposite, as you can see with the liberals ITT who are STILL incredibly butthurt about her despite her being significantly less popular since she lost her Bundestag seat. Liberals do not hate her like crazy because of her supposedly being "culturally conservative", homophobic (she is neither) nor her lukewarm socdem takes on bourgeois economics but because she does not HATE HATE HATE Cucktin and Russians like they do, does not support Ukronazis, does not support arming up the Bundeswehr and doesn't cuck to the Israel lobby and anglo lobby. If she's invited to a tv show she is always pitted against three, four or five NAFO warmonger opponents plus against highly biased hosts who cut her off during arguments. Liberals probably believe they ridicule and "debunk" anti-imperialist, pacifist and supposed Putinist (again, she isn't even simping for Cucktin/Russia) positions that way.
>>2555056By the time of ww1 most great powers were of relative equal strength and imperial influence, the British being the obvious outlier, with austro hungaria being probably the weakest. Since then more than a 100 years have passed, don't know if you noticed, and the current political landscape of the world is completely different, with america inheriting the spoils of the british empire and after the 2nd world war and after that the downfall of the soviet union and the east block, came to dominate the political/economic order of basically the entire world
You fucking troglodyte
>>2555038All three but she really really hates Die Linke.
>>2555002>they like these so-called rogue / maverick lefties who aim a lot of their fire at the left.Right wingers love to amplify Orwells, self-identified leftists who only ever criticized other leftists (whom usually are part of a left wing party). BSW is a more socially conservative Die Linke, and probably less socialistic in its economic program. The latter is probably why no one votes for them. It is funny because if Die Linke has BSW's basic bitch economic policies, they would be labelled by these Orwells as social fascists and Rosa-killers, but somehow Wagenknecht gets a pass and labelled as merely "socdem".
>>2555062>By the time of ww1 most great powers were of relative equal strength and imperial influencelol
>Since then more than a 100 years have passedthe point is that just because one imperialist power is weaker than another doesn't mean they're not imperialist. russia and china are weaker militarily and economically than usa but that doesn't make them less imperialistic, just that their capacity to enforce imperialism is weaker
now fuck off monkey
>>2555054China is already one of rhe top dogs of the imf and the world bank (third position)
>>2555061>Liberals do not hate her like crazy because of her supposedly being "culturally conservative"She's literally anti-trans, bitches about refugees (easy to bully those who can't fight back) and "identity politics", is "anti-globalization" (not just anti-EU, but pro-social chauvinism)… Let's not lie.
>UkronazisBoth Russia and Ukraine have Nazis in them, but that doesn't make either "Nazis". Otherwise everywhere on Earth would be Nazi. Stop with the propaganda.
>>2555069>the point is that just because one imperialist power is weaker than another doesn't mean they're not imperialistIt literally does moron, imperialism is an actual formation of capitalism, it's not something that countries have somehow innately interwoven in their being. The argument that in your imagined world where china and russia are just as imperialist as america is now in the real world is just idealism and cope. You're basically making the same argument that zionist make "well, if hamas/the Palestinians were to control all the territory they would be just as bad/worse as the israelis, they'd do genocide against the jews!" while they are in fact the ones doing genocide in the real world
>>2555070Imf and world bank are still firmly in the hands of the america and its allies, for now
>>2555089incredible analysis, i'm sure this goes hard as fuck if you have brain damage
>>2555089>imperialism is an actual formation of capitalismand all of them are capitalist LOL so yea they're all imperialist cuz capitalism naturally forms that. cope.
>"well, if hamas/the Palestinians were to control all the territory they would be just as bad/worse as the israelis, they'd do genocide against the jews!"??????
>>2555092Imperialism is when evil, you can't be imperialism if ypu're good (good is defined by less evil than amerikkka)
>>2555091Sorry you're too retarded to form a counter argument
>>2555092>all capitalist states are innately imperialist and are thus imperialistWhat's the point of having the term imperialism then retard? Capitalist would suffice just fine
>??????It's what you sound like, what's so hard to understand about that?
>>2555092in fact their response is so stupid i genuinely can't, so supposedly russia and china aren't imperialist because they're weaker, in spite of the fact that russia has about as much strength as much of LATAM combined, a strong military, and a strong industrial base, and also projects its power to any nation on this planet, china isn't imperialist despite having an insane production base and exceptional world influence, selling weapons to every power, and then the final cherry on top is the moralizing non sequitur designed to say "you're basically benjamin netenyahu if you disagree with me" really impressive stuff here
>>2555098sorry you're retarded to do anything beyond make moralizing non-sequiturs and shitty arguments ignoring the actual strength of these nations
>>2555077>She's literally anti-trans,She is not, let's not lie.
>bitches about refugeesShe does not bitch about immigrants, she does in fact bitch about immigrant workers getting exploited and she bitches about mass immigration. Let's not lie.
>against identity politicsso just like /leftypol/ before you arrived
"anti-globalization"
For a socialist, what exactly is to like about "globalzation", which is in fact capitalist world domination?
>EUFor a socialist, what is to like about the EU, which is in fact capitalist and aristocrat domination of Europe?
>Both Russia and Ukraine have Nazis Ukraine's entire political establishment and military command are literal Nazis and all communist and socialist parties are banned. In Russia neither communists nor socialists are banned, the KPRF is the 2nd largest party afaik and Cucktin even sort of appropriates Stalin. Cucktin surely is some sort of weird theocrat neoliberal conservatard or reactoid, but he's not a fascist.
Stop with the NAFO propaganda and get back to Reddit or at least use another flag, you're a liberal NAFOid. Democrap is your's.
>>2555098>What's the point of having the term imperialism then retardall imperialists are capitalists but not all capitalists are imperialists, but usa, russia and china all have enough capitalist capacity/development to become imperialist so they are all engaged in it because it is a natural consequence
>>2555106>She is not, let's not lie.<“If men can declare themselves to be women through a mere speech act, women’s rights and women’s safe spaces will soon be a thing of the past.” https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-moves-closer-gender-change-easier-sel-determination-act-law/>so just like /leftypol/ before you arrived<"The theory behind this approach is called identity politics. It is at the heart of left liberalism, and provides the practical framework on which the left-liberal worldview is based. Identity politics amounts to focusing on ever smaller and ever more bizarre minorities, each of which finds an identity in some quirk which distinguishes it from the majority of society, and from which it derives the claim to victimhood." https://www.leftvoice.org/everything-you-need-to-know-about-sahra-wagenknechts-left-conservatism/>For a socialist, what is to like about the EUI oppose the EU. I was saying that if she was just anti-EU it would be fine, but she is more broadly:
>"anti-globalization"Nationalism is the antithesis of proletarian unity, which must always be internationalist in natural. Nationalism is not socialism. The social chauvinists proved that on the eve of WW1.
>Ukraine's entire political establishment and military command are literal Nazis"They have Nazis in their country" =/= "their entire command is all Nazis", which is a stupid leap to make because it would apply to EVERY single country on Earth.
>the KPRF is the 2nd largest partyBecause they're Putin simps who don't care about socialism, only advancing Russian imperial interests. otherwise they'd be banned too.
>he's not a fascistHe's not, but the people behind him are. He's just another autocratic capitalist.
>>2555105It's not a moralizing argument just because you are offended by it, you projecting retard, it's to illustrate you use the same sort of nonsensical idealism to justify your position. The fact that you reduce the complexity of America's control over the world economy as just the vague abstraction to "strength" or whatever you're getting at is just you disingenuously reframing the argument because you can't cope with "call me when russia or china controls the world bank, the imf, the largest military force in human history by several gradations, with 800 military bases spread across the globe and the ruble or yuan serves as the world's reserve currency" Which in and of itself is just scratching the surface of American dominance over the world and it's contribution to anticommunism in that process.
>>2555107>all imperialists are capitalists but not all capitalists are imperialistsGlad we agree
> but usa, russia and china all have enough capitalist capacity/development to become imperialist so they are all engaged in it because it is a natural consequenceAmerica is already imperialist and has been for ages, russia and china are not imperialist currently, unless you think a country exerting power over its smaller neighbors is imperialism. In my opinion, they could be potentially in the future, but right now that's just a fantasy while the US has the position it has
>>2555107Chinese imperialism is based. USA/Russia imperialism is gay and retarded.
>>2555116quite literally it's a moralizing argument, you bring in the israeli genocide of palestinians to batter other people, it's a complete appeal to emotions rather than an actual argument
>>2555149No it's not dude, im not brining it up to call you bad like a zionist, im sure you don't support apartheid or whatever, im saying it's the same sort of ridiculous idealistic argument that doesn't take into account how the world actually is and instead has to concoct some sort of imagined reality where the roles are somehow magically reversed. It has nothing to do with trying to appeal to your emotions
>>2555054Can I call you about how the CSTO intervened in Kazakhstan over protests due to the price of bread and gas?
>>2555167No because Kazakhstan is a founding member of the CSTO so this is completely irrelevant
>>2553807Sorry, but that wasn't me. I never talked about german politics on this board before.
I didn't rage at the so-called "Lefts" return, I think it happened mainly because pseudo-leftist young people were disappointed in the greens and "The Left" now pretends to care about social issues, just like how the greens pretended to care about the environment or some shit before. I think "The Left" is just another trap for the little ones.
I wasn't really surprised by the results, I just happen to agree with the party that, statistically, the BSW might have won and the votes should be re-counted and verified.
I don't even care about them being in government. Regardless of those couple of votes, it just shows that the german people have been fully indoctrinated into marching eastwards for capital, "democracy" and apparently somehow their fatherland.
>>2554337I was already a commie years before I fucked your fat ass mother and you popped out of her.
Why does Every. Single. leftist discussion about national politics have to become about geopolitic?
I don't give a fuck about what happens outside my coutnry. Building the productive forces and ensuring stability and peace in my country is the highest priority.
I don't give a fuck about anything else. not NATO, not Russia, not Israel, not China, not Greenland. I simply don't care. I vote for the party that is most effective at building productive forces. Nothing else matters, everything else is noise.
>>2555401ᴉuᴉlossnW speech bubble
>>2555190You wouldn't comment on NATO deploying troops on Paris to quell a protest?
>>2555401I also hate geopolitics but you are a retard lmao
>>2555361>I think it happened mainly because pseudo-leftist young people were disappointed in the greens and "The Left" now pretends to care about social issues, just like how the greens pretended to care about the environment or some shit before. I think "The Left" is just another trap for the little ones.This is literal history revisionism, Die Linke want HAM on its economic policies and constantly center that in its campaign. You are simply not telling the truth.
>>2555743Yeah. Well it's interesting to contrast Die Linke's messaging from this the last election
>>2553049 where it's in-your-face economic messaging to the one before that (here) which was much more "lefty" in that specific way that people find annoying.
Pretentious and avant-garde might be words for it.
massiv retardation and nothing else
>>2553227I was about to say, the BND put in extra hours.
>>2553807Linke is literally Pro Israel and Pro NATO.
>>2556219>New co-chairShe has been co-chair since its founding.
Guess what there also is a Yemeni and an Iranian dude as part of the board. Almost like this party attracts people that feel committed to anti-imperialism.
The new chair that is replacing SW is the grandson of an Italian partisan btw.
>>2551515i don't believe in voting nor in any party, but i voted for her for the lols. had she gotten into parliament (think it was off by 9k votes in a country of maybe 85 million, ain't that odd!), it would have made the current coalition impossible (or at least it couldn't have been a majority government), which would have caused a tremendous amount of chaos. that's the only reason i went to the ballot box for the first time in my entire life.
i watched a couple interviews with her, read what she had to say, listened to some speeches, and on a lot of things i generally tend to agree, but i have little faith in her cause.
also, something happened with her, she went from edgy tanky to tame socdem in no time. either she's just old and weak or it's due to her retarded socdem husband oskar lafontaine. probably his doing.
>Will they replace Die Linke and would/will you vote for that party if were/are a German?kek if you ever voted for that party you might be retarded, no exceptions. it's a joke and a cesspool. i wish the mauermörder propaganda was true, but sadly it's not that. it's just a zionist performance art project with little to no merit.
>>2556179Poor landlords, ziggers and petty bourgeoise lost their most promising social conservative
>checks [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSW_group_(Bundestag))>Absence from the speech of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy>Volodymyr ZelenskyyHis name is Volodymyr? Volodymyr Zelenskyy vs. Vladimir Putin? No wonder people only say their last names.
>>2556678yes, his name is Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy, abbreviated to VOZ
>>2556669>kek if you ever voted for that party you might be retarded, no exceptions. it's a joke and a cesspool. i wish the mauermörder propaganda was true, but sadly it's not that. it's just a zionist performance art project with little to no merit.why
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