The Central District Military Court in Yekaterinburg has handed down a verdict to members of a Marxist group from Ufa. This was reported by an EAN correspondent from the courtroom.
The defendants in the case are Bashkir Communist Party deputy Dmitry Chuvilin* and his comrades: otolaryngologist Alexei Dmitriev*, pensioner Yuri Efimov*, and two volunteers who fought in Donbass in 2014-2015, fighters of the “Prizrak” battalion Pavel Matisov* and Rinat Burkeev*. Before his arrest, Matisov* was the chairman of the Ufa branch of the “Union of Donbass Volunteers.” The members of the group are accused of preparing for the violent seizure or retention of power (Article 278 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation), creating a terrorist community (Article 205.4 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation), and preparing to steal weapons (Article 226 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation). In the end, the judge announced the verdict:
o Dmitry Chuvilin* — 20 years imprisonment;
o Alexey Dmitriev* — 20 years imprisonment;
o Yuri Efimov* — 18 years imprisonment;
o Pavel Matisov* — 22 years imprisonment;
o Rinat Burkeev* — 16 years imprisonment.
At the same time, an investigation is underway into the case of Left Front leader Sergei Udaltsov***. He was arrested on January 12, 2024, after publishing several posts on his Telegram channel in defense of the Ufa Marxists, which the investigation considers to be justification for terrorism.
https://eanews.ru/ekaterinburg/20251216144423/chleny-marksistskogo-kruzhka-iz-ufy-poluchili-bolshie-sroki-v-voennom-sude-ekaterinburga>>2599619So is communism in russia just a sausage fest then?
>>"Some goons twisted me around, turned my apartment upside down, and confiscated a 100-ruble shovel—a scoop—and a broken tourist radio. They arrested me, put me in jail, and brought a very strange charge against me: as a member of some terrorist group, I had developed a plan to overthrow the government by force and violently change the constitutional order of the Russian Federation. And to this end, I had procured a sapper shovel as a weapon and a radio as a means of covert communication. Later, I learned that the people sitting next to me were my accomplices. Chuvilin had found a can of condensed milk and woolen socks. And Efimov had found a tent, foam rubber, and a tourist “podzhopnik”.
>>The investigation believes that the Marxists were preparing for a violent overthrow of the government and, in order to arm themselves, planned to first attack police officers with sharpened sapper shovels, then seize the “arms room” at the Investigative Committee's office in Bashkortostan, and then a military unit. The prosecution asserts that they used Baofeng tourist radios for communication and conducted training exercises with airsoft rifles and grenades, as well as air rifles. The training took place outdoors under the guise of country gatherings, where participants, under Matisov's leadership, practiced shooting, providing medical assistance, and evacuating from the battlefield.
>>The defendants called the requested sentences a “silent execution” and “repression against communists.” Dmitry Chuvilin said that he had “lost almost all his health in prison,” and 66-year-old Yuri Efimov, who suffers from type I diabetes, ended his speech with the words: “I am an old and sick man, don't torture me, just shoot me; I don't understand what I am accused of.”
If Prigozhin failed to coup cuckin with all the resources at his disposal, what made them think they'll succeed with 5 guys?
Someone is aiming for that promotion
>>2599638
Sure, people who literally fought the Ukrofascists in Donbass are afraid to go outside.
Hang your head in shame, dirty American.
>>2599674>>2599634Have you guys considered the possibility that there was no actual plot and these are trumped up charges to justify the persecution of communists by a bourgeois state? Russia may be acting as useful idiots for multipolarity (and by extension socialism) at the moment but they're still led by class enemies.
>>2599692you're clearly being baited ya mong.
>>2599695You'd think so but people unironically express such opinions all the time.
>>2599698>Yeah I think I’m going to trust the Russian government over the feelings of some Canadian liberal on this oneYou're going to trust the Russian government over communists who fought in Donbass?
>then why is the KPRF still the second largest party in the entire country?1. Because they're cucks and controlled opposition.
2. They also get repressed whenever they actually try to be real opposition.
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/putins-police-attack-russian-communists-for-calling-out-election-fraud/Frankly when communists are arrested by a bourgeois government you should assume that the charges are false unless definitively proven otherwise.
>>2599692>>2599695>>2599696This is just some officer making up charges to get a promotion.
>>2599709No you don't get it. If you side with communists against a bourgeois state, you're a liberal. Real communists know that the bourgeois state would never lie, and that we must support all their repressive efforts against communists.
>>2599714There is no communist party in russia. This is just officers trying to get a promotion. Its not real.
>>2599719
>Again leftists, not communists
The article specifically says they're communists and CPRF members.
>And just because they did some good ten years ago doesn’t magically mean they’re incapable of advancing the interests of NATO imperialism
That's entirely beside the point of whether or not they actually did it, and how you have to actually be retarded to take the word of a bourgeois state at face value when it's arresting communists.
>what about this rag from a bourgeois comparador party
My brother in Christ, you're literally arguing for cooperation and subordination to the bourgeoisie at this very moment. Say what you want about the CPUSA but I've never seen them reflexively side with the cops in a bourgeois state when they arrest communists.
>>2599726>le state is a historic subjectMods permaban this canadian treatler falsifier NOW!
>>2599731>>2599732Cope all you want, nothing will surpass the monumental retardation of reflexively trusting Cucktin's bourgeois pigs over communist veterans of the anti-fascist war in Donbass. This isn't even to suggest that they definitely are innocent, but to assume that the charges are legitimate without investigation is beyond foolish.
>>2599736Are you the real sabocat? Real sabocat was a master falsifier, nothing like you
>g-guys, there is a delibirate class conscious conspiracy against le communists in russia guys. Everyone is on it guys. Every cop, every state official is on it guys.
Nothing happened. Doesnt matter. Nothing ever happens.
>>2599742>g-guys, there is a delibirate class conscious conspiracy against le communistsYes you drooling retard, that's literally the entire function of the bourgeois state. It exists to protect the bourgeoisie from their class enemies, i.e. communists and workers. This is Marxism 101.
>>2599746>voluntarismHoly shit! Mods, mods he is right here! Do it now! Come on!
>>2599746Actually, state exists to supress the bourgeoisie.
>>2599748Attributing a class character and class consciousness to the state isn't voluntarism dummy.
>>2599753Thats not what you said.
I’m confused by the report, which communist party are they representing exactly?
If they were sabotaging the SMO they deserve it
>waaah waaah le anti communism
This is just one incident. Probably some officer wanted a promotion. There is no anti communist campaing in russia
Hey so maybe this is a hot take here but perhaps it's not "based" when a bourgeois state arrests communists and that there's a very likely chance that they weren't trying to overthrow anything and the prosecution is, dare I say, LYING in order to suppress communists for the crime of dissenting against Putin. Just some food for thought.
>>2599759Just because someone claims to be a Communist doesn't mean shit.
>>2599706Yes dude. Everyone in the KPRF is evil and not a real Communist EXCEPT if they happen to get arrested, then they were actually true Communists all along. So true.
>>2599706>communist>bourgeois state>charges are falseWhat?
>>2599760Idk anon I think if someone's a fucking deputy of a branch of the communist party then in all likelihood they're a communist
>>2599761The CPRF are generally not a genuine opposition party, but every once in a while they overstep the latitude allowed to them by the Russian ruling class and are repressed because of it. Again, this is largely moot since it doesn't address the monumental foolishness of instantly taking the word of the bourgeois cops over communists being persecuted.
>>2599768Explain why the KRPF directly opposed United Russia's support of the Minsk Agreements, and was calling out the need of recognizing the LNR and DNR for years, all while also not being in opposition to the government as you way.
>>2599770allowed UR to appear as the peaceful moderates without causing any particular problem for it and keeping the escalation option open
You can tell the seething against the KPRF is dumb when the claim is it’s “controlled opposition”, tacitly admitting that the second largest party in Russia is oppositional at all, compared to the SocDem equivalents we have in the west that are not oppositional at all.
>>2599778>>2599770Criticizing the government on minor points of foreign policy is very much within the purview of the average Western opposition party. Western socdems do stuff like that all the time. The whole point of controlled opposition is that they're allowed to criticize or even vote against the ruling party. What they're not permitted to do is seriously challenge them for power, much less displace the class power that they represent. This is why Russian communists are regularly arrested when they complain about unfair election practices. It's an example of them going beyond their allowed latitude of impotent whining to actually challenge the dominance of United Russia in a meaningful way.
>>2599783Western SocDem parties do “challenge” power, but when they come into leadership they just abandon all oppositional policies. When does the controlled opposition of the KPRF get to do this?
>>2599788They don't because UR has an electoral monopoly on Russian politics.
>>2599797People vote for UR
>>2599797And they’ve never had a hot potato they’d like the communist party to take responsibility for? That’s usually how the monopoly of right-wing parties in the west miraculously fall to SocDem “opposition”
God this site really went to shit huh?
>>2599811The western left went to shit when they forgot what political opposition looks like and is for, let alone being able to gauge whether it is controlled or not.
The purpose of the KPRF is ostensibly to see Russia become communist once again, if they’re considered controlled by virtue of not attempting to topple the current Russian state to NOT do that but INSTEAD make good on their assertion that Russia should involve itself in Donbass against NATO/Ukraine (which the Russian state ultimately did anyway), then I think that suggests western leftists have become feckless in their mimicking of western bourgeois parties wrestling in elections for the mandate to do absolutely nothing different.
>>2599825Actual Existing Socialism is when you cuck out to oligarchs and political machines, got it
>>2599827Thank you for proving my point
>We MUST take power regardless of the conditions and circumstances, anything less is cucked permaban all ziggers
>>2599835It’s fine that your not serious, it’s just not a criticism of a communist party abroad
>>2599846Being serious is when you concede on all issues except some geopolitical border games? If this is what it means to be a "serious communist party" then communism is dead
>>2599835Mods, permaban him for using a racial slur
It's actually a good thing when communists get arrested on trumped up charges by a bourgeois state because something something Ukraine. I am very smart.
>>2599828For reading a book?
>>2599848>>2599850The primary objective for Russian parties both communist and capitalist is to resist NATO’s very strong belief that the collapse of the USSR can happen again for the Russian Federation. There’s little in the way of a communist future for a state that has been collapsed and its resources extracted by western imperialists.
>>2599851You’re not very smart, because you didn’t have a point to make (fine) but you just had to anyway even if that means making something up (retarded)
>>2599855Are they literally called “The Marxist group”?
>>2599857And this necessitates arresting and imprisoning people for distributing Lenin's works?
ASSAD BAD! Resisting Assad was the right thing to support!
But I hasten to add that I wash my hands of the fact that only benefited Israel and the west as those redfash warned me would happen.
>>2599863Already covered in the /ukr/ thread, it’s a misleading headline
So there is now no such thing as legal marxism in rusha
>>2599866Yes I'm aware the police claim they were plotting to violently overthrow the state. Because as we all know the police are incapable of lying
>>2599870Communists dont plan on overthrowing the state?
>>2599870The irony is not lost on me that the US is full of lone gunmen thinking they’ll trigger historic change (or just get their personal beliefs some airtime) that shoot up anyone but the American bourgeoisie every day, but the concept that five guys in Russia belonging to “a Marxist group” plotting something similar is both nuts but also supportable if true, bad naughty KPRF for not overthrowing Putin now!
>>2599873Then what does that make the CPRF?
>>2599882Very clearly not ML
>Western leftists when other countries aren’t doing a revolution: fucking cucks and anyone excusing them is a third worldist
<Western leftists when they’re not doing a revolution: <recounts every piece of Marxist literature that states revolution is driven by conditions rather than want, even despite everyone losing their shit about AI eliminating the need for work>
>>2599887They cannot be ML because they're in a position that ML analysis was ever set up to work with.
>>2599894Conditions and considerations for me, absolute mandate for thee has always been the watchwords of this site
>>2599894I dunno I just think it's not too big of an ask to not do apologia for a bourgeoisie state arresting communists but I guess I'm just a cringe westoid ultra
Like fr fr western leftists unironically seem to think revolution is primed and ready to go in Country X because they think it’s a shithole that anyone would be desperate to topple and replace with “something” “better” that is only probably and unlikely to be communism, that it doesn’t happen must be because of the people by and large being reactionary religious dictator loving twats. But by that token, it can’t happen in their neck of the woods because it’s currently too nice and convincing people against capitalism therefore is like, too hard.
>>2599900A bordigger even
>>2599900I don’t doubt you lack foresight, it’s just whether thinking in general is absent, that’s my concern.
>>2599901Revolution in Russia and revolution in America are far from mutually exclusive positions. Hell I agree that if anything revolution would be easier in America in no small part because under the surface of commodities that give the artificial impression of "wealth" everything sucks. But on the other hand, Russia actually has a communist party in government unlike America so the argument could be made that it's closer to revolution than America And I think it's bad when communists get arrested for random bullshit no matter where it happens.
>but what about Ukraine?I think that's bad too and Zelensky's a fucking cunt for banning communist parties on the grounds of them supposedly being "pro-Russian". I hope that when Ukraine's funding invariably dries up and their government falls following their loss in the war the proletariat will take the opportunity to seize control.
The whole point of this thread was that a group of Marxists were arrested by a bourgeois state for the crime of, for all intents and purposes, distributing Lenin. Claims of terrorism are completely unsubstantiated. It shouldn't be that controversial for a communist of any sort to look at that and say "hey that's bad", but apparently on leftypol it is.
Also fuck off with your
>weeeh I guess to you I’m just a cringe evil westoid ;_;
Fuck off what are you and your party in power doing so much better than the communist parties of the world that means you get to point the finger at them as traitors to the cause but unipolar imperialism being based in YOUR society is just something you’re powerless to oppose?
That’s why you’re evil, because you’re a pathetic snivelling piece of shit looking for excuses that explain why you’re the good guy of the world and the bombed, starved and oppressed have done it to them selves Marx damn you people
>>2599919Yeah I'll take "shit nobody said" for $800
>>2599923Argue a fucking point or just accept it
>>2599925>$Nice
But this entire thread is full of people who pay in dollars, chastising an actually successful communist party for not destabilising shit while those who pay for ICBMs in dollars are wanting to claim the oil fields of Siberia
Russia cockblocking usa is good, actually
>erm that state arrests their own communists the second they acquire guns
<global imperialism? massive military alliances against the word? Prolific anti-communist secret police that operates around the world? Oh you can’t claim that MY country is worse because of this, please oppose ALL bourgeois states EQUALLY! I have a prescription for anti-depressants ya know I think I’ve suffered enough
>>2599692No Im sure a capitalist state would never spread anti comunist lies for its own benefit
>>2599929Hey so if the CPRF is so "successful" then why didn't they do anything to combat Yeltsin when they had control of the Duma? The CPUSA may suck ass but they at least have the excuse of never being in power.
>>2599937cockblocking em with their anus that might be
>>2599783>minor points of foreign policy wtf, the SMO was a revolutionary shift against economic subservience to western finance. That's not some minor shift, that's fundamental. You have KPRF derangement syndrome.
>>2599973>denigrating Russia by denigrating homosexualsWell that’s another tick on my “yep that’s a lib” bingo card
>>2599973And now that cock is smeared in shit so who really lost?
>>2599996Well you know what they say, he who found it browned it
>>2600030ur one of def one of us burgers, I can tell cuz your fucking annoying
Trotskyite down!
Supporting Putin is more important than socialism for many here
>>2600104Whatever you need to tell yourself
>>2599894>>2599901Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shit on the KPRF too much, nor am I suggesting that they should be doing an armed insurrection or something. However it's a simple fact that communist parties are only tolerated by bourgeois governments to the extent that they don't constitute a threat to the dominance of the capitalist class. If the Russian communists have been allowed to grow to the level that they have, then it's indicative that they have done so in a way that the Russian ruling class finds non-threatening. It's clear though that when the push the boundaries allotted to them by the Russian bourgeoisie, they are swiftly shoved back into line. This doesn't mean that the CPRF has no real communists in it, or that it can never be a vehicle for revolution in Russia. It just means that the tolerance that the Russian ruling class shows them is evidence of their general passivity and the collaborationist orientation of their leadership. As Mao says, if your enemies aren't attacking you then it should be taken as an indicator that you aren't doing enough to confront them.
All of this is beside the point however, which is that it's downright embarrassing for a "communist" to see a bourgeois state repressing communist party members and immediately side with the former.
>>2600135didn't deny his point
>>2600491>nor am I suggesting that they should be doing an armed insurrection or something.<As Mao says, if your enemies aren't attacking you then it should be taken as an indicator that you aren't doing enough to confront them.Yeah okay.
There's absolutely no reason why a bourgeois government would select, much less maintain, a communist party as their major opposition. Especially when communism represents a prior form of governance they'd naturally need left in the past and not constantly being compared to.
The KPRF is the size that it is, because counter-revolution in late Soviet Russia was at its highest in the major cities like Moscow, where centralised power was. The dissolution of the USSR wasn't representative of the desire for the masses, thus, post-Cold War there is still a lot of support for Communism.
What the KPRF therefore has achieved and must continue to achieve is maintaining that pro-communist sentiment, to keep their party in the Duma (let alone legal) to continue promoting the history and legitimacy of communism in Russian society, until such a time comes where action would be likely to result in communism, but with western imperialists at the gate that time just isn't now as I'm sure there's much writing from Mao covering that scenario.
Ultimately, the KPRF do have different conditions to the SocDem and indeed DemSoc parties of the west, their size is a testament to their history & conditions and not that they've been
unfairly handed status and support by the Russian state as controlled opposition. Perhaps you believe they ought to be shaking the rafters 24/7 to prove themselves to be not controlled opposition in your mind, but as the conversation has followed, neither yourself nor anyone else can say exactly to what end that would be in aid of.
>which is that it's downright embarrassing for a "communist" to see a bourgeois state repressing communist party members and immediately side with the former.Actually I would argue that's half the problem for western leftists, treating everything like it's a zero sum game so if five numpties start arming themselves for a rampage then that must be
>Firstly, considered a lie by default<Secondly, supported if it's not a lie, hypothetically if they've claimed to broadly have the same politics as yourself. The only alternative being you support the bourgeoisie against them.
That way, the western left gets roped into supporting/excusing/explaining every act committed by an adventurist while the right-wing routinely discard every mass shooter who leaves a manifesto espousing direct support for right-wing ideas.
Kprf is opportunist tho
>>2600924Whatever you need to tell yourself
>>2600926It is. There is no revolutionary wing there.
>>2600929You weren't particularly interested in my post, were you?
>>2599967>the KPRF is ass because it is irrelevant but the CPUSA is better because it is even more irrelevant>i am so smart, I Le Epic Owned youAll I want for christmas is Total American Death
>>2599967Opportunism penetrared both the party and the workers, okay?
>>2600936The entire thread is an ode to shouting "ERM REVOLUTON NAO PLS" from a position of irrelevance.
The goal for the vast majority of western leftist parties is just to get representation in their respective parliaments (even if that's via liberal bourg parties), but their critique of foreign communist parties that do have representation in parliament, is that they're fake because they're not using their access to said parliament to smear shit over the walls, rig offices with firecrackers, fill up everyone's desks with Marxist literature or anything that would get them thrown out of parliament and then probably outlawed.
The KPRF aren't scribbling "Eat the Rich" over Putin's notebooks, but lets face it, the "vote blue no matter who"ists and the "we campaign for elections but don't even WANT to win"ists, aren't going to do that either if their bid for representation ever works. THEN of course a party needs to be smart about how that representation is utilised.
>>2600924every single person with this attitude """"trolling"""" or not needs to be shot to death and murdered until they die of not being alive anymore
>>2600983By all means, do let me know you’ve read the post but you’re so flummoxed by it, all you can respond with is, I guess, criticising grammar?
Leftypol: the western left is fucking shit!
>Okay, so what about the left in Russia?
Leftypol: *shits self*
>whataboutism
>>2599619A Stalinist went to a prison for insulting the president of Russia
The St. Petersburg City Court sentenced local resident Dmitry Denisov to 1 year and 8 months in a penal colony for posting posts insulting the Russian president on a social network.
The Petersburger was found guilty under Article 354.1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation ("Rehabilitation of Nazism"). He is also prohibited from administering websites online for three years after serving his sentence.
The court found that on January 15, 2023, Denisov posted comments on VK in which he compared the Russian president to Hitler and the country's political system to Nazi Germany. At the trial, he stated that he was an orthodox communist and a Stalinist, so he could not justify Nazism. According to him, he wanted to insult the President of Russia.
https://lenta.ru/news/2025/04/17/stalinist-otpravilsya-v-koloniyu-za-oskorblenie-prezidenta-rossii/ >>2599759The most retarded thing is that the Russian state already did this exact thing hook, line and sinker with the anarchists and you lot believed it without question that time.
>>2601158The rotting corpse of Russian communism is still more alive than the most energetic American 'communism'.
this thread has convinced me that we should give another $100 trillion to ukraine
>>2600491You are obviously right. We tend to forget that in Russia there also exists various factions (mostly in UR) that are either more liberal or outright nationalist anti-communist, including expats. Still, I remember on twitter whenever some Russian nationalist tried to rehabilitate the Tsarist state they got shot down pretty immediately and made fun off by other russians. The same cannot be said about Ukrainian nationalists where anything anti-communist is uncritically accepted. I dont think ive met a single Ukrainian communist either online or in person which might not mean much but I do think that most communists left that country for Russia when the party got banned.
>>2600911>There's absolutely no reason why a bourgeois government would select, much less maintain, a communist party as their major opposition. The Russian bourgeoisie didn't "select" the KPRF as their main opposition. The party had established itself as a real threat to the ruling class in the 90s and was later pacified. This is more or less what happened to the SPD, which you'll remember was founded as a Marxist party.
>Firstly, considered a lie by default<Secondly, supported if it's not a lie, hypothetically It's very funny that you'd complain about this considering pro-Russian people (and I'd consider myself broadly pro-Russian in the context of the present war) are constantly saying that if you don't explicitly support Russia then you automatically support NATO. And yet when it comes to a direct conflict between Russian communists and the Russian state, suddenly there's plenty of room for nuance. Sorry, but yes, you should automatically assume all criminal charges brought against communists by a bourgeois state are false until proven otherwise. It's not as if these guys were defeatist ultras either, but veterans of the war in Donbass. The fact that you would so readily throw them under the bus when they're attacked by the bourgeois state shows where your real loyalties lie. You are a partisan of the Russian bourgeoisie and only "support" the communists to the extent that they dont cause any trouble.
I legitimately don't understand how my take can be controversial here, especially if you consider the KPRF a genuine opposition party that poses a real threat to the ruling class in Russia. Your position is what, that the Russian communists are a revolutionary force working actively towards a situation wherein the workers can overthrow the Russian bourgeoisie, but also that the Russian capitalists would never repress or trump up charges against them? It's nonsensical.
>>2601347>and was later pacifiedSee the problem is you're not qualifying that statement with anything, what would prove to you that they're not controlled opposition and to what end are you
certain they'd achieve right now?
>are constantly saying that if you don't explicitly support Russia then you automatically support NATO.Irrelevant, assuming even that's a fair interpretation and not just projection.
>Sorry, but yes, you should automatically assume all criminal charges brought against communists by a bourgeois state are false until proven otherwiseThen you're destined to spend the rest of time accumulating responsibility for all adventurism simply
claimed to be aligned with your politics. The article doesn't specify exactly what communist party they're acting on behalf of, just that they're a "marxist group" and they name dropped Lenin, Marx, Stalin, etc in their court case that took two years to resolve in their sentences.
> The fact that you would so readily throw them under the bus when they're attacked by the bourgeois state shows where your real loyalties lie.My loyalty lies with actual emancipatory politics, not just anyone on an adventure with revolutionary aesthetics.
> You are a partisan of the Russian bourgeoisie and only "support" the communists to the extent that they dont cause any trouble. Ooooh now you really hurt my feelings. I assume that was the aim because you're not making a point there.
>Your position is what, that the Russian communists are a revolutionary force working actively towards a situation wherein the workers can overthrow the Russian bourgeoisie, but also that the Russian capitalists would never repress or trump up charges against them? It's nonsensical.No I'm answering your assertion that they must be controlled opposition because they're "allowed" to the second biggest party in Russia. In the end my answer is that sounds like sour grapes, while your affinity for a tiny group getting pinched on terrorism charges as people who must therefore be the
real communists just betrays the western fanaticism of oppositional politics. Fetishising getting nicked is what anarchists celebrate
>>2601400>what would prove to you that they're not controlled opposition and to what end are you certain they'd achieve right now? Okay, I'll concede that they're real opposition for the sake of argument, but that just reinforces the need to distrust the Russian government when charges are brought up against their members.
>The article doesn't specify exactly what communist party they're acting on behalf ofAt least one of them was a KPRF member and former member of the regional legislature.
https://memopzk.org/en/news/five-members-of-the-ufa-marxist-circle-sentenced-to-prison-terms-of-up-to-22-years/>Then you're destined to spend the rest of time accumulating responsibility for all adventurismNo, I'm arguing that we should assume that no such adventurism took place unless definitively proven otherwise. Why should we take the word of a bourgeois state at face value? Additionally they were convicted exclusively on the words of an informant rather than documentary or other hard evidence, yet another reason to be suspicious.
>My loyalty lies with actual emancipatory politicsAnd how does reflexively siding with a bourgeois state against communists advance emancipatory politics?
>Adventurist retards trying to overthrow the government in the middle of a war of self defense against genocidal NATO expansion get arrested
>this somehow means Russia is le heckin fascist
The western left is truly a cancer
>>2601439>reading the state and revolution is adventurismterminal libtardation hospice care warranted
>>2601444No Anon they were definitely going to do terrorism. The police informant said so! Do you really think the repressive agents of a bourgeois state would lie? What are you a liberal or something?
>>2601433Reflex is
>bah there's no way the second biggest party can be actually communist, they must be controlled opposition! REAL communists get thrown in prison piecemeal and never amount to anything, that's just the way it is! >>2601444This has already been debunked, if that were truly the case then the entirety of the KPRF would have been arrested and Lenin statues would be toppled across the country. So either the entire communist party, the second largest party in the entire country, is wrong…or more likely these five randos are just adventurist retards planning to overthrow an anti-imperialist state on NATO's behalf
>>2601460That wasn't a reflexive position but based on what I've heard from people in Russia and an application of Marxist theory, but it's a moot point anyway and I've already conceded on it. Now tell me, why should we automatically take the word of a police informant working for a bourgeois state at face value?
>>2601464Why should we distrust him?
Are we gonna get fedded
>>2601469Because he's a police informant for a bourgeois state. His job is to see to the repression of pro-worker and pro-socialist forces.
>>2601469Because RuZZian ORKS are all genetic untermensch who cant help but lie, except of course in the rare case where ones sponsored by the CIA try to destroy the country. Take it from me, a westoid who's never even visited Russia nor knows any Russian and still decries the Soviet Union as "authoritarian", I know who the real communists are!
>>2601476Maybe he is a double agent. How would you know?
>>2601478>and still decries the Soviet Union as "authoritarian"Actually I consider the Soviet Union to be humanity's greatest sociopolitical achievement, which is why I sympathize with those who want to see it returned over the people who destroyed it.
>>2601464Not my point is it? Your primary point was getting nicked is proof of them being real communists, then started seething about the KPRF because they’re the second largest party in Russia and that must mean they’re controlled opposition otherwise they’d all be nicked.
Like, you have to explain why getting nicked itself is the best proof of intentions beyond telling me you’re applying “Marxist theory” and what real Russians have supposedly told you.
>>2601496>Like, you have to explain why getting nicked itself is the best proof of intentionsBecause if the bourgeois police are treating you as an enemy of the bourgeoisie then that's an indication that you are one. If they aren't treating you as an enemy then that's an indication that you are not. Now tell me why we should take the words of an informant for a bourgeois police force at face value.
>>2601508That’s not how it works
>they got nicked, that’s proof an indication they’re honest to god communists and more importantly that the KPRF aren’tI’m not saying the Russian state is to be trusted, I’m challenging the idea that getting nicked or not getting nicked is proof of anything in of itself.
The reason being is that I know that “anti-campists” above all want to make the point
for some reason that Russia/China/Syria/Iran and other jungle states arrest communists for being communists, fact. Meanwhile as western socialists/communists,
they’ve never been imprisoned for their political beliefs thus it oh just ever so slightly more preferable if the Garden still wins, but keeping it anti-campist I shall tut at the methods used.
>inb4 I’m not an anti-campistI’ve seen you in a lot of threads and that is very clearly what you believe to some degree
>>2601551All those guys are elected. Communism is unpopular.
>>2600911>There's absolutely no reason why a bourgeois government would select, much less maintain, a communist party as their major opposition.well that's what France was doing in order to do dirigisme back in the 50s (the bourgeoisie mostly wanted to suck US cocks),you put someone that's "worse" than you as a sucessor,to guarantee your place in power by default.
it's mostly state capitalism opposed to liberal capitalism,an inter-class fight.
>>2601551They switched to electronic voting recently to marginalize the KPRF even more. Not to mention United Russia (Putin's party) recently voted down legislative amendments made by the KPRF to raise the minimum wage and pensions. Putin hates the KPRF and desperately wants the Liberal Democratic Party to be the 2nd place party instead. If things continue to deteriorate then the remnants of the KPRF will have to flee to Belarus.
>>2601549>That’s not how it works<I hold that it is bad as far as we are concerned if a person, a political party, an army or a school is not attacked by the enemy, for in that case it would definitely mean that we have sunk to the level of the enemy. It is good if we are attacked by the enemy, since it proves that we have drawn a clear line of demarcation between the enemy and ourselves. It is still better if the enemy attacks us wildly and paints us as utterly black and without a single virtue; it demonstrates that we have not only drawn a clear line of demarcation between the enemy and ourselves but achieved a great deal in our work.t. Mao
<And everybody wants to talk about…the pork chops will tell you in a minute “The pigs don’t want you to get black. They don’t want you to get no black studies programs. They don’t want you to wear dashikis. They don’t want you to learn about the motherland and what roots to eat of the ground. They don’t want that—because as soon as you get that, as soon as you go back 11th century culture, you’ll be alright.”<Check the people who went back to 11th century culture. Check the people that are wearing dashikis and bubus and think that that’s going to free them. Check all of these people, find out where they’re located, find out the addresses of their office, write them a letter and ask them if in the last year how many times their office been attacked. And then write any Black Panther Party, anywhere in the United States of America, anywhere in Babylon, and ask them how many times the pigs have attacked them. Then when you get your estimation of both of them, then you figure out what the pigs don’t like. That’s when you figure out what the pigs don’t like.t. Fred Hampton
>I’m challenging the idea that getting nicked or not getting nicked is proof of anything in of itself.So you don't agree with the notion that if a bourgeois state perceives you as a threat to bourgeois interests they will repress you?
>Meanwhile as western socialists/communists, they’ve never been imprisoned for their political beliefs thus it oh just ever so slightly more preferable if the Garden still winsWell some of those states do arrest communists for being communists, especially Iran. And broadly speaking all bourgeois states holds communists in contempt. This definitely includes Western states as well as anybody with a knowledge of COINTELPRO, Gladio, etc can tell you. Certainly I wouldn't call the West less repressive against communists. Quite the contrary actually, on a global scale they're objectively much worse.
>I’ve seen you in a lot of threads and that is very clearly what you believe to some degreeI believe that in the confrontation between BRICS and the West its preferable for BRICS to come out on top. However I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that the ruling class of all countries are ultimately our enemies and the best we can say about those in BRICS is that they are inadvertently setting the stage for their own eventual overthrow. However incidents like this and how we react to them are indicative of who holds a principled communist stance on multipolarity and the national bourgeois forces driving it (i.e. that the splintering of the global bourgeoisie makes them easier to destroy) and who has simply been absorbed into the orbit of the bourgeoisie and is willing to sacrifice the independent power of the workers.
I feel like a factor of this that is getting overlooked is that even if you buy into the prosecution's claim that these guys were terrorists, the court explicitly labeled Lenin's State and Revolution as a "terrorism manual". I dont really see how you can look at that and not come to the conclusion that Russia actively represses communists
>>2601640Not communists, marxists.
>>2601660Marxists are communists though?????
>>2601679Not always. Some of the most ruthless and efficient bourgeois are Marxists.
>>2601684Okay but what does that have to do with any of this? Is the implication that the people arrested weren't communists?
>>2601590That's not how it works because you're demanding I prove a negative,
prove they weren't arrested for being communists. I can't, all can be said is the sentence was five guys got arrested for plotting some kind of an attack and if that's true, then I'd still not support that as adventurism, and if they weren't doing anything at all and it was fake then what are they doing, that the "legal" communists, weren't to gain such attention?
>>2601733I'm not asking you to prove anything. I'm simply saying your first instinct as a communist should be to distrust a bourgeois government's claims when it engages in repression against communists.
>and if they weren't doing anything at all and it was fake then what are they doing, that the "legal" communists, weren't to gain such attention?They do get such attention and examples have been posted ITT. My point in bringing up the status of the KPRF as token opposition was just to point out that the toleration of their existence doesn't mean the Russian state isn't anti-communist.
>>2599706>>2599855>>2599828 >>2601741I think going with your first instinct is what being a reactionary is, even if you think it's justified. Because
what if out of proceeding it turns out the people arrested for terrorism do end up having makeshift bombs and a whole plan sketched out for an act that wouldn't achieve anything, worse still, what if their interpretation of Marxist thought is completely different to your own?
It's such an obviously flawed position to have that instinctually you have to throw your hat in support for whomever claims to be communist or called a communist, simply because of that. It only really works if your primary desire is exactly as demonstrated in this thread, you want to make a point that some such country is especially anti-communist and your examples are
>Government tries to break up an oppositional protest that claims elections weren't fair>Court attempting to try people for terrorism, claims their possession of a book discussing revolution as evidence for terrorist intentand a demand I prove the secret charge isn't that they're communists specifically.
We sadly live in an era where there are countries in Europe specifically banning Communism as a political movement, but the tragedy is they're NATO nations and thus the outrage is little on leftypol. But of course the non-NATO country with Lenin statues and a sizable communist party is the one that needs particular scrutiny.
All this proves is that the Russian repressive apparatus is shitty and aimless, and not nearly as omnipresent and omnipotent as it is portrayed. They still can't block VK pages openly endorsing Azov or navalnite regime change, but they will zero in if you report some random five guys having a plan to overthrow the government. They did the same to tiny liberal, nazi anarchist and trotskyite wrecker groups before, while much more significant actual threats are still at large. They're not really targeting communists, they're just reflexively reacting to shit without any overarching strategy.
This is a lesson to practice opsec and avoid open larping (if the charges are actually remotely true, which they probably aren't)
>>2601841>I think going with your first instinct is what being a reactionary isNo, being a reactionary I'd when you support reactionary institutions, class interests, and policies. Such ask, idk, a bourgeois state arresting communists on terrorism charges without any hard evidence. Besides, I don't see you criticizing the people whose first instinct was to justify these arrests and assume that these guys are guilty.
>Because what if out of proceeding it turns out the people arrested for terrorism do end up having makeshift bombs and a whole plan sketched outIf such evidence came out then that would change things, which is why I said that such charges should be assumed to be false unless hard evidence for them is given (incidentally, presumption of innocence is also a basic principle of justice). However its a moot point in this case because the proceedings are closed and sentences have been handed down. The only evidence presented was the testimony of an informant.
>worse still, what if their interpretation of Marxist thought is completely different to your own?Frankly that wouldn't make much of a difference to me. Anti-communists typically don't bother to differentiate between tendencies outside of very specific situations where doing so is useful to them. If they arrest one kind they won't have a problem arresting others.
>you want to make a point that some such country is especially anti-communist I already said I don't consider Russia to be more anti-communist than any other bourgeois state, and that on a global scale the West is much worse. But its still an anti-communist state and so we shouldn't be surprised when it behaves as such. Most importantly we shouldn't make excuses for it when it does.
>We sadly live in an era where there are countries in Europe specifically banning Communism as a political movement, but the tragedy is they're NATO nations and thus the outrage is little on leftypol. That's because when NATO countries repress communists nobody shows up to tell us that it's a good thing actually and we should support it.
Damn, props to these comrades for appearing to be enough of a threat to get arrested.
>>2601946Also like, repression of communists in NATO countries kinda goes without saying? We're talking a "fork found in kitchen" kind of deal, you're not breaking new ground or overturning the zeitgeist by pointing out that countries like Poland are banning communist parties entirely.
>>2601946>No, being a reactionary I'd when you support reactionary institutions>Most importantly we shouldn't make excuses for it when it does.>That's because when NATO countries repress communists nobody shows up to tell us that it's a good thing actually and we should support it.>(incidentally, presumption of innocence is also a basic principle of justice)Astoundingly disingenuous, you wanted me to prove a negative and now that has been called out you're just pretending my point is that anti-communism is good or excusable, which I assume is the point you were trying to make anyway in demanding I prove a negative.
>>2602004This too is incredibly disingenuous, an entire thread was warranted over a court case where the supposed crime wasn't being a communist but being a communist was presented as evidence, but countries like Poland and the Czech Republic ACTUALLY making being a communist explicitly a crime is just, yawn man, why are you even bringing that up it goes with out saying geez
>>2602052Again, I never asked you to prove anything positive or negative. I'm saying that presuming the innocence of communists arrested by bourgeois cops is just common sense.
>you're just pretending my point is that anti-communism is good or excusableNo, I'm simply criticizing the people who leaped to defend the Russian state and bash these guys as CIA dupes or whatever.
>>2602070>I never asked you to prove anything positive or negative.If the charge isn't explicitly that they were communists, but you still claim that must be the charge for them to be arrested at all and all your debating revolves around
>erm explain to me why the bourgeois state WOULDN'T arrest them for being communists? then that is asking me to prove a negative, and pointing that out being followed up with
>erm I just don't make excuses for anti-communist states unlike youis where I know it's time to walk away.
I don't know who has been telling you that the Russian state (or indeed any jungle state) is flawless/communist/anti-imperialist, all I can say is that they're wrong but also that doesn't warrant you being in
every thread relating to the jungle states shadowboxing some supposed board-wide movement presenting these states as such, as I've come to suspect you use said shadowboxing as a pretence to just generally keep the conversation away from the west, NATO, the US, etc as much as possible.
>>2602105>then that is asking me to prove a negativeAgain, I'm not asking you to prove a negative. If anything I'm asking for proof that these guys are guilty with what they were charged with, and which is something even the Russian police have been unable to provide. What I'm really asking is why you think we should trust the Russian police when they make these allegations without evidence. Or more specifically, why we shouldn't give communists the benefit of the doubt or presume their innocence.
>I don't know who has been telling you that the Russian state (or indeed any jungle state) is flawless/communist/anti-imperialistThere were people in this very thread celebrating their arrest and calling them dupes of the West, luckily it seems that their posts were scrapped. Whether it was because mods banned them or because they deleted them out of embarrassment I can't say. But you can still see posts at the top of the thread replying to their deleted nonsense.
>relating to the jungle states shadowboxing some supposed board-wide movement presenting these states as suchSorry Anon but I only ever respond to things people actually say. I'm not shadowboxing anybody, I'm responding to actual nonsense being posted.
>>2599783>Putin is a Soviet person who did not draw lessons from the collapse of Russia. That is to say, he did learn lessons, but very pragmatic ones. He understood the coming of capitalism in a Soviet way. We were all taught that capitalism is a kingdom of demagogues, behind whom stands big money, and behind that, a military machine which aspires to control the whole world. It’s a very clear, simple picture which I think Putin had in his head—not as an official ideology, but as a form of common sense. His thinking was that in the Soviet Union, we were idiots; we had tried to build a fair society when we should have been making money. If we had made more money than the western capitalists, we could have just bought them up, or we could have created a weapon which they didn’t have. That’s all there is to it. It was a game and we lost, because we didn’t do several simple things: we didn’t create our own class of capitalists, we didn’t give the capitalist predators on our side a chance to develop and devour the capitalist predators on theirs.
>I don’t think Putin’s thinking has changed significantly since then. He sees them as common sense. That’s why he feels comfortable and assured in his position; he’s not afraid of arguing his corner. He thinks: look at those people in the West, here’s what they say, and here’s what they do in reality. There is a wonderful system with two parties, one passes power to the other, and behind them stands one and the same thing: capital. Now it’s one fraction of capital, now another. And with this money they’ve bought up all the intelligentsia and they organize whatever politics they need. Let’s do the same! Putin is a Soviet person who set himself the task of revanche, not in a stupid, military sense, but in a historical sense. He set it for himself in Soviet language, in the language of geopolitics, that of a harsh pragmatism that was close to cynicism, but was not ultimately cynical. Putin is not a cynic. He thinks that man is a sinful being, that it is pointless to try to improve him. He believes the Bolsheviks who tried to create fair, right-thinking people were simply idiots, and we should not have done that. We wasted a lot of money and energy on it, and at the same time tried to free other nations. Why do that? We don’t need to.
>Putin’s model is completely different from that of Zyuganov, the head of the rump Communist Party of the Russian Federation. Putin’s idea is that we should be bigger and better capitalists than the capitalists, and be more consolidated as a state: there should be maximum oneness of state and business. A two-party system like in the us? Wonderful, we’ll have that too. Putin worked for many years to make that happen. Although he admits he has not been successful, I think that’s still what he wants, although he realizes it’s a much greater task than he imagined. But politics should be in parties. The current set-up is not a one-party system, there is no analogy with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. The governing party, United Russia, is not the state. It’s just a sack full of people hanging on to the Kremlin—a telephone system, transmitting signals from the Kremlin to the bottom through the regional apparatus. It has absolutely no independence and cannot act on its own, in contrast to the old cpsu. It cannot fulfil political directives. It needs full instructions, one, two, three, four and five. If three and four are missing, it stops and waits to be told what to do. United Russia has nothing in common with the cpsu. It has been useful as a component of the system. This was one of the conclusions that Putin drew—that one needs a vote, one needs legitimacy from the people and not from the fact that in 1917 you seized the Winter Palace.
>Putin doesn’t believe that there is real competition between the political parties in the West. He thinks of it as a game, like a round of golf in a private club: one player is slightly stronger, another is slightly weaker, but in fact there is no real competition. He imagines it as it was in the Federal Republic of Germany after the war, under the leadership of Konrad Adenauer. There are two parties, one of which has power, and the second waits, perhaps for a long time. The Social Democrats waited, I think, from 1945 to 1970. It’s a sort of one-and-a-half party system. Putin always said that at some point in the future the opposition will gain power, and we must be ready for that moment. By being ready, he meant that we must be both here and there, that is, controlling both parties. The second party hasn’t really worked out yet in Russia; but Putin wasn’t against the Communists turning into social democrats. The parties were all supposed to be controlled by the President, of course. The idea of a presidential power that stands higher than the other three powers is in our constitution. The President has a special kind of power which does not relate to executive power: executive power ends with the Prime Minister. The President is above them all, like a tsar. For Putin that is dogma. He thinks that in old societies and states there is a sense of order—people don’t aspire to destroy their opponent when they are victorious at the elections—and we don’t have that sense of order. He also thinks that all forms of power in Russia so far have been unperfected: he wants to build a strong, durable form of government.https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii88/articles/gleb-pavlovsky-putin-s-world-outlook >>2602137>If anything I'm asking for proof that these guys are guilty with what they were charged withYeah because your point is
they must have actually been arrested for being communists, so asking me to prove the official charges are real is still demanding I prove a negative.
For all I know they've won a bidding war on eBay for some Soviet memorabilia and the local police chief is the one they outbid, taking it badly he trumps up some terrorism charges against them knowing that Marxists literature works as evidence of conspiracy to seize power and/or commit terrorist acts. If we dare to believe the charges are complete fabrications, then I don't know why it's terrorism charges and not just planting a load of CP on them to utterly discredit them long after their sentences are up, presuming they live that long in prison.
Frankly, I don't even really care about this part of the conversation, I think it's flawed to jump to conclusions and support anyone or anything claimed to be communist but on your reputation so be it. My main gripe was the assertion that the KPRF are controlled opposition, essentially because they're *not* getting themselves arrested on terrorism charges. Perhaps they are controlled, but that won't be proof of it if you can't explain what they ought to be doing right now given the conditions and to what end, you couldn't and so the conversation ends.
>>2601873> repressive apparatus is shitty and aimless, and not nearly as omnipresent and omnipotent as it is portrayedtbh it might be easier to name apparatuses of state repression that aren't aimless and incompetent and just looking for more funding. I think NATO libs like to hype up the RF and le putler due to there per-exisitng issues with analyzing an actual war with literal pop culture tropes.
>>2602196>so asking me to prove the official charges are real is still demanding I prove a negativeIsn't the burden usually on the state to prove that charges are real?
>>2602232The burden of proof is on anyone making an accusation, the problem isn’t in sabo not trusting the charges are real, the problem is in him making a counter-accusation that he expects others to disprove on pain of proving themselves to be in favour of the original charges.
Whereas it’s completely possible to both believe the case was unfair in accepting possession of Marxist literature as actual evidence of terrorist intent, but also that this isn’t necessarily indicative of the Russian courts considering being a communist or possessing communist literature in of itself to be a crime, as is accusation being made.
Because that’s why there needs to be the concurrent accusation that the KPRF is controlled opposition, right? Their legality and representation in the Duma contradicts the accusation that Russia criminalised communism and the case in the OP is supposed to be proof of that.
Meanwhile actual open, unironic, no fooling criminalisation of communism is becoming a thing in the west
To be proof of that criminalisation*
But anyway, I’ve said my piece and I have to refer back to my prior post where I suggested that in my opinion, it’s just sour grapes that in the west communism is being criminalised unopposed, decommunisation progresses unopposed, support for fascists is on the rise unopposed and yet Russia is not doing this and in fact is voicing opposition to these things, even if for entirely self-serving reasons.
A no u would therefore be lovely to avoid confronting the fact that decommunisation is an exclusively western policy and the case in the OP could have, no, should have been that no u.
Maybe they should've not tried to overthrow the government?
>>2602196>My main gripe was the assertion that the KPRF are controlled oppositionOkay well, I already conceded on that point hours ago and clarified that a more accurate description would be token or symbolic opposition. The issue isn't that they aren't real communists, but that they've been forced into a niche where they can do no harm and are either unwilling or unable (likely both depending on the politician) to break out of it. We've also seen what happens if they try.
>>2602351Trying to overthrow the only country fighting against imperialism isn't very communist of them
>>2601192>he compared the Russian president to Hitler and the country's political system to Nazi GermanyStupid liberast
>>2602619we get it lil bro you like Burgfriedenspolitik
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