/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2640303
>eliminate the economic domination of people by other people
Sure but what's the point of doing that? Are we supposed to do it for moral reasons?

>>2603860
so go do some direct action then

>>2639750
Because the average American has zero stake in Israel-Palestine.

>>2640317
I'm not sure. Maybe morality. Maybe personal experience. I like the more practical version that goes, it just feels bad to go through life being abused and exploited and it's bad that this happens to other people too and it shouldn't happen anywhere, and this goes on a lot in the world which gets pretty barbaric. Like at the end of the day socialism is about human freedom and emancipation. What do you think?

Anyways, here's this:

>How can you help people like the Palestinians, who suffer daily, whose lives are totally dominated by Israeli occupation, who live under an apartheid regime? Even Palestinians inside Israel have no real chance of equality under Jewish supremacy. They also live in fear as a result of the genocide and what Israel might do next — inside Israel and in the West Bank.

>If you’re organizing in the United States, the question is: What are you going to do to improve that situation? Too much energy here goes into debating one state or two states or engaging in theoretical fights around Palestinian resistance tactics. And frankly, I don’t see that as a useful debate here if your main goal is changing policy on the ground for people who are suffering today. That’s what matters most.

>Among Palestinians, there’s legitimate contestation about favored outcomes and what liberation means. For a solidarity movement, I don’t see why it should enter that terrain of debate. Uphold one thing: unconditional support for the Palestinian right of self-determination. That’s the fundamental right Israel has violated. Fighting for that right by cutting off US military aid would be a huge contribution to Palestinian welfare.

>There are always going to be ideological discussions on the Left. But if those become disablers that fragment the movement and make you less effective at improving conditions on the ground, then I don’t know what those discussions are for. Advocacy in the real world is about power — how you challenge the workings of power, how you build capacity, how you practice leverage. It’s the difficult work of winning over people to a just cause.

>And while students on US campuses can shape the conversation, they don’t have a lot of leverage to change policy. Many young people support Palestine because it’s a moral cause — that’s good. But if you’re going to build a mass movement among the broader working class, you also need to look for ways to help people see how it is in their interest to stop the genocide and stop funding Israel. This may not be as intuitive as in a union organizing campaign fighting for better wages and working conditions, but you can demand that funds going to Israel go to public services in the United States. Money for schools and health care in the US and Gaza — not bombs. Make those links: show how American foreign policy serves the elite and the military and doesn’t serve the majority here or abroad. Without that, Palestine remains only a moral cause, and moral-cause organizing is hard to scale up as the links to material interests are hard to see.
https://jacobin.com/2025/10/palestine-gaza-solidarity-us-strategy

>>2640351
Where I see a problem is when these issues are being framed as primary ones. If you have even a pretty basic understanding of capitalism you know that it's inevitably going to produce things like war, genocide, economic exploitation and imperialism. So pushing for the end of this or that specific problem within the framework of the currently existing order of capitalist nation states is automatically reformist and liberal. If you understand what capitalism is and you understand the stakes then when you look at issues like Gaza your thought should always be how do I use this to put class struggle on the agenda and to organize workers for the overthrow of capitalism. Your approach should be instrumental as trotanon put it, not symbolic or moral. Otherwise what you get at absolute best will be a repeat of what happened with the global movement to end South African apartheid. There was a good amount of sometimes vague, sometimes more principled "radicalism" mixed into that too and it "succeeded". And what did that get South Africans, let alone the global proletariat? This shit just aims so low and the emotionalism and moralism is a part of why it does. To construct a new world free of exploitation of man by man we need to think bigger than some kind of Wilsonian accord between nations that can't exist before capitalism is destroyed anyway.

>>2639727
>Why can’t it take down Blackrock and Vanguard? Why can’t it take down UMG? Why can’t it take down the porn industry or the insurance companies? They say police brutality only exists because cops are trained by the IDF, so why can’t the Palestine movement mortally wound the police or ICE?
Because you need to take political power to do all of these things. Hold the bankers and pornographers accountable. The left in America has no ability to take power. Mamdani has even sold out his second week in office.

>>2640370
I think the Palestine issue is coming to an end. Iran is about to collapse, meaning the Palestinian resistance has no one to send it weapons anymore. Syria has collapsed and the new leader is a Zio. Lebanon may very well normalize relations with Israel in the next year. The Houthis can't fire at Israel without Iran's backing, plus Yemen in general is basically fucked from their own civil war.

So who else supports Palestine? Algeria, which is also on the brink of collapse and can't provide much material support? Pakistan, which has nukes but is far more likely to use them against India than Israel? Qatar and Turkey? Probably the most likely but neither will supply weapons.

>>2640196
>When did Zohran flip?
When everyone said he was, right along the time he started getting mainstream Democrat endorsements.

ALAS at that time people were saying his backtracking on Zionism and coddling with monsters was merely a ploy. A trick to fit in among them and carry out a secret, still amicable agenda… typical entryist stuff.

>>2640393
I knew he was fake the moment Liz Warren endorsed him.

>>2640387
>I think the Palestine issue is coming to an end.

What comes after it?

>>2640400
The absolute worst case scenario is that Israel annexes both Area C of the West Bank and most of Gaza, with Areas A and B being taken by Jordan and the rest of Gaza being taken by Egypt. The Palestinians in Gaza will most likely be mass-deported to whichever countries agree to take them. The ones in the West Bank get Jordanian citizenship most likely.

Best case scenario is that the Palestinian working-class teams up with the Israeli working-class and they overthrow their ruling classes together and learn to coexist.

>>2640370
>>2640387
See vidrel:
>>2621084

Palestine has become a symbolic crusade. Because comrades can't get their demands won when it comes to other issues (healthcare, housing, employment, the need for a promising future) they latch on to Palestine and use it as a way to convey their overall anger towards the system.

This also explains what Trotanon says here: >>2639727 . All other issues are vaguely linked to Palestine for this very reason. "If Israel can be destroyed we'll all finally get housing and healthcare!"

Donate to European Legal Support Centre an organization which engages in strategic litigation to protect westerners in EU protesting againts Israel
>but how does that help Palestinians
It doesn't but it's worth more than donating to buy them food which will be blocked and consumed by IDF. Besides that in 3 months an European Citizen Initiative about ending EU-Israel trade will open

>>2603860
>What we did was bad!
<No further elaboration of what could have been done differently, with which organisations and manpower, how we can prepare our cadre better with which training, and how to act in further stages

I will not tell you to kill yourself, because you're just on this incomplete level of actually understanding Communist strategy and tactics. I will however tell you to stop acting high and mighty, stop just denouncing things you dislike without offering alternatives, and start researching and conversing with others on analyzing:
>Forces available to the movement atm
>Educational level of such forces
>Organisational levels of such forces
>The ways in which entities in your country are actually materially and diplomatically helping Israel, on a granular level. So not "government supports them", but "this xyz factory makes parts for weapons and its shipped through this and that port".
>The consciousness and battle-readiness of the non-cadre population and their organisations
>State repression willingness and capacity
And then
>What actions did the people practically do?
>What were the aims, and did those aims if realized contribute meaningfully?
>What caused the actions to not succeed? Did it not receive wider support? Could it be ignored? What factors, concretely, made the actions unsuccessful
>What actions did succeed and to what degree?
>What are, based on the material aid of your area to Israel, the hypothetical options to block and weaken those?
>Do you have cadre capable of doing such things?
>Do you have organizations capable of doing such things?
>Is the populace at a point of consciousness where they would join and support such actions on a mass scale?
Then based on such an analysis, you can actually formulate a strategy on what you can do to create the subjective conditions within your reach to prepare for the correct actions you can achieve with the forces and populace you actually have around you.

>>2640841
Oh yeah and to get ahead of you replying:
While there is plenty to improve and learn, I do think the boycot and campus stuff was the most that leftist activists could have achieved.
>The populace was still vehemently pro-Israel and anti-Palestine when the October 7th attack happened
>The left is not organized, not trained practically, not trained ideologically, lacks any form of discipline, lacks structures to make any sort of large scale decisions in terms of strategy
>The left is filled with left-communist/ultra tendencies of wanting to be "the most correct" and "the most left"
And here are the things that happened and could have happened:
>Decentralized boycott movement: Required little organizational power or cadre, put pressure on Israel, allowed people to join in meaningful action that had more of an impact on a large scale than joining some sad communist protest
>Campus encampments: Waaaaay ahead of where the masses actually were at the start, causing a higher degree of dissonance with their target support base than even the same types of encampments for climate change. Aimed to cut cultural and academic ties with Israel. Surprisingly, some did succeed.
>General protests: Aimed at changing public opinion and forcing the ruling class to respond. Was the right move for a population that slowly started to become more and more anti-Israel and anti-genocide. Succeeded in forcing several states to act, exposing them to the population at large successfully. Think of, for example, Palestine action.
>Blocking shipments: Aimed at depriving Israel of ammunition. Needs highly politicized highly militant unions in ports. Enacted successfully in some countries like Greece and Belgium to a limited degree. Wider support and militancy of unions was lacking, which is coupled to the low degree of support for Palestine in the general population.
>Sabotaging weapons factories: Aimed at sabotaging the war machine. Requires high levels of politicised and militant unions. These simply do not exist. Population does not currently support industrial sabotage as a tactic. If done by a small group of adventurists, damage would be minimal and easily fixed, would cost cadre, would just give the bourgeoisie easy PR opportunities to spin a narrative against pro-Palestine protestors. Think of the response to the just stop oil idiots destroying random paintings, but imagine it 1000 times worse.
>Volunteer military intervention aka international brigades: Really now? We lack bases of operation, we lack training, we lack people capable to doing so, we lack the material resources to do so, the population in western countries would not support such things and thus it would not drive either further communist organising or support for palestine, and doing this would just end up grinding cadre into mush under Israeli tanktreads, very limited cadre which could instead be positioned into one of the above tactics with greater returns on cadre invested. Going to Kurdistan was already adventurist enough, having idiotic crustpunks waste food and ammo they needed, but at least Kurdistan enjoyed global sympathy and their meaningless death at least could inspire some support for them. Of course, just as a tactic, not as a statement about Kurdistan as a political project.

You cannot do a serious analysis without outlining this all. After this, we need to assess, what is the conciousness and militancy of the general population now? What do we expect to develop in terms of "happenings" in the coming 5-10 years? If we disregard the state of our cadre, what types of responses would be workable? Following from that, what do we need to train ourselves in? What do we need to change about our organisations? What legwork can be enact in non-communist organisations such as unions to give ourselves a better hand the next time?

>>2640880
>>2640841
In the end a communist party must do the following core tasks:
>Organize and train communists into a party fighting force
>Meet their local population where they are at, and help them take the steps through both ideological education as well as organisational growth. This to the end of optimizing the subjective conditions as much as possible, to give ourselves a better hand.
>To block and hinder the damage our own bourgeoisie is doing to other workers of the world, to the best of our ability.
As long as we do this, we have done our task. We cannot stop the genocide of the Palestinians now, just as the USSR was not able to stop the American and European empires, and the Nazis, from their genocides and imperialists wars. What we can do is give it our all to slowly chip away at the powerbase of the capitalists globally, to use every contradiction to our best advantage, and to hopefully win this war or attrition.

The Soviet Union has fallen, millions upon millions will burn, but as long as there are still proletarians to burn, there will still be light against the blackest reaction.

>>2639727
Since when are anti-genocide protesters responsible for housing and healthcare?

>>2603860
I know a corporate who laughs at Palestinians because they are completely clueless about where to attack. This guy builds low level components for drone devices with Muslim labor. He laughs about nobody knowing that he's doing that. It's a plastic factory in Australia and he is laughing about the protest in the CBD. The businesses really do have all of us in a sling while they're pulling the strings.

>>2640905
When they insist “IT’S ALL CONNECTED” and make vague connections between big Jewish capitalists and Israel, as if Jewish capitalists exploit people out of belief in “Zionism” or sone grand “Zionist conspiracy”. Capitalism isn’t the behaviour of capitalists and whether or not big capitalists who happen to be Jewish are “Zionists” is completely irrelevant.

>>2641050
I think it’s worthy to have a discussion on how and why Palestine became the defining issue for the western left (especially the American left) when very few Americans are directly affected by it. Comrades will sacrifice everything for “Palestine” regardless if their efforts help the Palestinian people in any real, material way. Like they’ll willingly get fired from their jobs or be expelled from university for making pro-Palestine social media posts but they don’t care because solidarity is more important. They wouldn’t risk their livelihoods for any other issue.

>>2641107
Sunk-cost solidarity. The idea is, the more sacrifices you make for "the cause" the more determined you are to win, because you don't want all of the sacrifices you've made to have been in vain. Palestinians understand western psychology quite well and they know the more they can get western activists to sacrifice for them the more those activists will keep prioritizing Palestine because they don't want it to have been "all for nothing".

Palestine is done for.

The generous accomodation of islamism in leftism will backfire spectacularly. Arrogant westoids are in for a bitter surprise.

>>2641871
Pretty much. Once Iran falls they will be wiped clean.

>>2641871
Yep.

>>2641871
I don't see any way they can win. With Iran about to fall, their only allies are countries that are way too weak to provide them with any material support. Alas, they will be another lost cause.

20 years from now the white liberals in the NY Times will romanticize Hamas, or lament "what could have been."

>>2641873
It's a continuation of the nationalism that "leftist" movements had in the 20th century.

>>2641910
Yes, meaning it's long outdated by now. Petty nationalism, whether it's pan-Arabism, pan-Islamism, or Zionism, aren't going to defeat anything. An international working-class movement will.

>>2641913
>international working class movement
keep dreaming. The working class will never have international consciousness, neither the peasant class nor the petite-bourgeoisie. Since the time of Lenin, only the bourgeoisie and the intellectual class have demonstrated to possess international consciousness.
No wonder the working class keeps getting fucked: an international bourgeoisie v/s an atomised proletariat. The atomised proletariat cannot even be described as 'national', as in mamy places they restrict their conscioussness to specfic intra-national region, linguistic group or religious group.
I'm done feeling sorry for the proles in the middle east who place islam above everything. If after centuries of turmoil, they still cannot open their eyes, well they can eat shit.
Considering all the concessions that leftists have done for islamists, what concession has the islamist ever done for the leftist? Zilch. Nothing.
There can be no alliance with medieval animals.

>>2641909
Not only are their allies weak, they are also surrounded by muslim countries that either dont care or aid israel for their own self interest: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, Egypt.

Bleak doesnt even begin to describe it.

>>2641934
You should actually put a gun in your mouth.

>>2642170
Name me one (1) concession islamists have done for leftists.

>>2641934
Almost as if the party is necessary

>>2607818
Not beating the Treatlerite accusations

Self-immolation will never change as many minds as Senate-building-immolation

Palestine isn’t dead. It needs a different strategy. Starve the Zios and they will flee. Simple as.

>>2641934
>keep dreaming. The working class will never have international consciousness
If nationalists like you keep breathing, yeah I bet.

>>2641934
Being a baseless contrarian to multipolaroids is bad too bruh. Your post is filled with moralism.

>>2642670
The whole purpose of BDS was to “starve the Zios so they collapse” and it failed. Your average Israeli isn’t losing sleep over Starbucks losing a few profits.

>>2642670
Falsifier gem

>>2642670
What does a “victory” for Palestine look like to you?

It's pretty much over now.
Americans are focusing on the white girl that got shot

>>2642690
>The whole purpose of BDS was to “starve the Zios so they collapse”
Wrong.
>and it failed
It never even really started.
>Starbucks losing a few profits
Where is Starbucks listed on BDS?

>>2644163
Starbucks is one of the biggest BDS targets.

Also, what’s the purpose of BDS then? Overton window?

TBH I think a lot of people believed the Palestinian resistance had a legit chance of winning. I remember how everyone on here was saying “Palestine will be liberated by Christmas” unironically when October 7th was taking place. People were reluctant to call this war a genocide because they believed Hamas would be victorious.

>>2646332
Careful anon. There are still retards here who maintain that Hamas won and Israel lost. You will get called Moshe if you continue talking like this.

That's everything isn't it?

It's all PR and you can't outspend the burgeoisie. Like, pro-Palestine people aren't being honest either. Not in a bad way, I just think it's self defeating to promote anti-zionism and justice for Palestinians while divorcing it from the material consequences of what would happen.

Which is to say, the US/NATO losing their control over "Israel" and over MENA and probably collapsing along the petrodollar as regional interests become more prevalent. Or the region needing a forever GWoT to keep the compradors in place. OR whatever, really. It would had a very big material impact in the region and in US/NATO. A movement with those goals is already at odds with every single mainstream party not currently chanting "death to America", if those exist in the west.

Whatever the specifics, losing their unsinkable carrier would be a tremendous material blow for the US/NATO.

My point is, the Palestinian advocates and even the resistance mostly refuses to acknowledge the link between Palestinian struggle and anti US imperialism. THAT is the height of the enemy, that is their actual power. But activists for some reason think that they can battle it out through PR alone, build nothing material and then act surprised when bottom falls out at the whims of the bourgeois media apparatus.

I'm sorry to say, but it will keep happening, and the only thing being achieved in the west is normalizing whatever the Zionist policy is, even now. Because the pro-Palestine movement directs people to play "fantasy-football" within the culture war rather than politically organize. It is not an apolitical, or big-tent issue, it's not a matter of morals. That is the lie from above. As long as that's the line, then it'll continue being a PR thing fought on the culture war, gatekept by mainstream media.

>>2652342 (me)
Like what do these people expect of the places which reap all the benefits but suffer none of the colonial tensions? Do Palestinian advocates really think that moral outrage is just enough to cause the world hegemon and it's close allies to commit suicide by abandoning MENA?

You have to be kidding me. There is NOTHING an apolitical pro-Palestine movement can offer that liberal Zionism can't do better (and with the full support of capital).

>>2640149
people on here still struggle to understand this because they come to Marx before getting rid of their humanist liberal brainworms which causes them to think internationalism is in opposition to "nationalism" when really it's in opposition to imperialism, while "nationalism" is divided into the chauvinist nationalism of the imperialist nations versus the liberatory nationalism of the colonized nations. To put it in lib terms: some forms of nationalism "punch down", and others "punch up"

>>2641733
I've noticed this a lot too.