The Palestine movement failed miserably to stop the genocide because the movement is largely one of SYMBOLIC politics, not one of instrumental politics. It’s not about the Palestinian people but about angry western youth letting off steam. This exact BDS movement has become about self-righteous zoomers showing off how “virtuous” they are by boycotting Starbucks and Coke, never mind that boycotts are supposed to be a militant tactic and weapon to attack an enemy head-on. The campus protests from 2024 were also aimless and did nothing except get a bunch of students and professional activists arrested. Makes sense that NYU banned criticism of Zionism right afterwards.
Let this be known for the next time the world is thrown into a state of crisis.
The movement still exists and many of the donations that were made did achieve better conditions for the population inside palestine. While yes more direct action would help but there was and still is much good work being done, its just as you said "less symbolic" then other actions against israel
>>2603865I just wish there was more i could do to help people all over the world beyond donating, i want the social conditions to change for the better, not just apply Band-Aids.
TBH a much better move would have been if students at Columbia and NYU went all the way and dropped out in protest of their schools supporting genocide. Hit the schools where it hurts. I agree the encampments were useless.
The Palestine movement failed because "movements" never actually do anything.
>>2603860>The Palestine movement failed miserably to stop the genocide because the movement is largely one of SYMBOLIC politics, not one of instrumental politics. You're not wrong but realistically could it have stopped the genocide either way? Like the U.S./U.K. is really not the primary battlefield here anyways so even with a more instrumental and effective movement compared to a moralistic one then the effect might still be limited. You do have to grow up and do politics though, not just protests.
>Makes sense that NYU banned criticism of Zionism right afterwards.Eh yeah but the campus occupations did freak them out.
Hamas should've accepted foreign fighters or atleast ones that know arabic but I imagine that would be an OpSec Issue.
People here attack you if you talk about chinas ties with Israel, trade and funding. They are anti BDS.
The campus crackdown was a good example of jewish supremacy and it woke up a ton of people
>>2603880What’s the point of acting if your actions aren’t about stopping genocide?
>>2603887>and it woke up a ton of peopleAnd did it stop the genocide? No.
>>2603920It made a large number of MAGA supporters anti-Zionist because they realize pro-Israel is not America First. Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, MTG and Nick Fuentes are more anti-war and anti-imperialist than even most leftists at this point.
>>2603920There isn't a magic bullet that can do that, but it undermined the strong point of Zionist power in the US. Israel is now finally running out of time.
>>2603920Israel and the US pretty much ran their own soft power to the ground with that shit.
It fails because they don't really advocate anything other than a two state solution, it does not really change anything, it would still be an absolute shit fight. Why people think "national sovereignty" actually means anything I don't know.
>>2603932Yeah, well hating Jews is what left and right agree on, except the right believes Jews are some kind of eternal essence
>The campus protests from 2024 were also aimless and did nothing except get a bunch of students and professional activists arrested.
A lot of them were more grounded and focused than you may realize. I participated in the encampment at my uni where they weren't just camping out until the genocide ended, but were demanding the university divest itself from Israel. It actually succeeded in this too.
>>2603936>Israel is now finally running out of time.In what ways?
>>2603961The goal of socialists is national sovereignty?
Is that what we’re ultimately fighting for?
>>2603951A very hard pill to swallow is that all of these protests aren’t going to destroy Israel. The idea Israel will magically destabilize and collapse — thus giving the Palestinians an opportunity to rise up and storm the land to take it back — doesn’t seem very feasible in the foreseeable future. It’s much more likely that Trump and Bibi will start forcefully relocating Gazans to other countries at this point.
>>2604022Israel can’t survive without support from America. Once Americans start electing anti-Zionist politicians Israel is toast.
>>2603860most people are aware of this
>>2603960> It actually succeeded in this too.is it still divesting?
>>2603920Look, Israel doesn’t care about what woke college students think. It knows those people will never be on its side.
What Israel DOES care about is what American conservatives like military personnel think if it. If American conservatives join dissident MAGA like Tucker, Marjorie and Nick Fuentes it will be a matter of time before Israel loses all support. That’s why Israel is terrified of Tucker and Nick more so than jihadis.
>>2604116
Yes. It makes me realize Maupin was right when he said true anti-imperialism won't come from the left but from the dissident right. The left spends way too much time talking about the trans issue and abortion and not enough about uniting with the right over anti-imperialism.
A president MTG will save Palestine, not a president AOC.
>>2604116
>CPUSA: “Call your elected officials and tell them to stand against the Israel lobby and stop arms shipments to Israel.”
<Internet Leftists: “That’s basically doing nothing, fuck off.”
>Reactionary elected official takes a stance against the Israel lobby
<Internet Leftists: “You have done more to stop the Palestinian genocide than anyone on the Left! I love you!!!!”
>>2603936>>2603942>>2604036Most of Israel's enemies are too weak or just don't care enough to destroy Israel at this point. I'm assuming this collapse hypothetical would also require massive military might from Israel's enemies, no?
"It's useless to do x and y" is just an excuse of people who can't be bothered to DO the absolute bare minimum like go out and protest and want to justify their laziness. The genocide isn't stopped because the US working class is weak and it is weak because ya'll are LAZY and FALSE CONSCIOUS, not because some college students made an actual effort to ORGANIZE
>>2604272It's not about doing nothing. The criticism is that these protests were completely directionless and had a billion different goals. I attended several of these "ESCALATE FOR GAZA" rallies. I can confirm everyone there had a completely different understanding of what they were protesting for. Some were liberal bandwagoners who were just there to demand a ceasefire. Others were showing up in green headbands and chanting support for Hamas. We marched around the block for three hours then went home. It was always happening on Saturday so it's not like people were leaving their jobs to march in the streets. All spectacle.
The only thing these protests did was move the overton window a little bit. This is the same rhetoric the American left has been using for 20 years now and it's done almost nothing.
>>2603916I dunno, maybe they felt a sense of responsibility towards what was going on and figured they needed to try and do something anyways.
>>2604036I'm not sure. It'd be more difficult for them but other governments have received a lot of U.S. support (including direct U.S. military intervention on their side) and lost. I think the fact is that Israel draws on deep reserves of nationalism in their own society which many Jews find empowering. A lot of true-believing Zionists will be like "we'd rather die with a rifle in our hands." That's the thing with nationalism. It's a powerful historical force and it's about a kind of subjectivity in which a "people" become "subjects" of history rather than "objects" of history in which they're just helpless and acted upon by others. Now this also involves drawing borders around a claimed space, and defining an "us" and a "them" who are not part of that, and then mercilessly killing those people because they're not part of the national entity you've just carved out of a particular territory, but I view this as kind of like the Balkans or something.
Think about socialism for example. The whole goal is very different from nationalism since it's about the international working class but it's about a class in itself becoming a class FOR itself, acting collectively and taking matters into its own hands, becoming subjects of history rather than simply living in a state of dependency on capitalists. Like the whole point of Marxism is not to
beg the ruling class, right? It's to expropriate them and seize the means of production.
>>2604215>A president MTG will save Palestine, not a president AOC.The whole idea that president XYZ is going to "save" the Palestinians basically implies that Palestinians depend on other people speaking and acting for them. That's because they're the "victims." Now this viewpoint is understandable to an extent because Americans are not Palestinians, they're Americans, and they do have the ability to affect the U.S. government (or at least more so, relatively, somewhat), but it's really liberal humanitarianism that's dressed up as radical. No liberation movement in history has ever succeeded by resting their strategy on some other people's moral drama playing out in a certain way. Like, the outcome of American elections is going to decide the fate of these people liberation movement??? It's absurd. It may have some effect but I somehow doubt that will be the decisive thing that determines how this struggle will go.
>>2604315>The whole idea that president XYZ is going to "save" the Palestinians basically implies that Palestinians depend on other people speaking and acting for them. That's because they're the "victims." Now this viewpoint is understandable to an extent because Americans are not Palestinians, they're Americans, and they do have the ability to affect the U.S. government (or at least more so, relatively, somewhat), but it's really liberal humanitarianism that's dressed up as radical.That's the thing: at the end of the day it all depends on what the Palestinians do. Unless we're on the ground in Israel-Palestine we can't do all that much.
>>2603920Nothing could have stopped it in the current political climate.
>>2604342Yeah. It's all virtue signalling.
>>2604353I don't think protesters demanding a ceasefire is necessarily virtue signaling? It's limited but it is a concrete demand that is situated in a particular context: the U.S. government does materially enable Israel and it makes sense for Americans to try and build leverage to make that stop. What's wrong with that?
There are other groups that have different slogans that are more militant-Palestinian, like "resistance until return," but that struck me as not as effective because it's not like you and me marching down the street in New York are the main protagonists. Now some of the people doing that may have been Palestinian as well which makes the matter more complicated, but the vaguer the slogan, usually the more moralistic and performative it is. Also what can appear radical is not necessarily that radical.
There is no revolutionary practice without a revolutionary theory. That explains the whole Palestinian movement.
>>2604494Dont islamists have their own theory?
>>2604495> revolutionary theory<muh islamist theory Did I stutter, comrade?
>>2604501Islamist theory isn't revolutionary at all. I've read Hamas publication and some of their goals included fortifying the morality of society using Islamic laws and public observation of religion. If this is revolutionary then Dugin should also be a revolutionary. I think that anon's point is that material interest- i.e in not being genocided- matters much more than having the correct theory, which any leftist sitting their comfortable asses in the first world can have.
>>2603920Why didn’t you stop it?
>>2604506Also i define revolutionary here as aiming for a social relations that have not existed before in society. I'm sure that Hamas theorists just like Dugin will disagree with this, they'd conceptualize revolution as rebellion against the 'liberal morass' and the resurgence of organic society with God at the helm, but that's obviously not what leftists think by revolutionary practice
>>2604506How did you conclude from my post that Islamist theory is revolutionary theory?
>>2603860social media addict fuck off.
Is Kehlani a pornstar?
It failed because it needed to, simple as. People need to realize that part the scientific process is exhausting all available options. That doesn't mean do everything no matter how retarded, but contradictions need to work themselves out in the ways that are most immediately apparent.
>>2604525Half of western women are pornstars now. Piggy realized dressing prostitution as a "womyn's empowerment" worked a lot better than anything they've tried before.
>>2603932>Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, MTG and Nick Fuentes are more anti-war and anti-imperialist than even most leftists at this point.Venezuela disagrees
>>2604591>Half of western women are pornstarsIdpol
>>2604220You think calling congressman and senators is praxis? That is laughable. Please just join the DSA already, CPUSA is just DSA lite.
>>2604600Not idpol, look at the increasing amount of women that got into digital prostitution from only fans? It's a form of exploitation
>>2604116
they have done nothing
>>2604636Have they? They convinced large amounts of people in the United States that work for wage labour that we shouldn't be funding imperialist projects like Israeli and Ukraine
>>2604641right. has that stopped israel from violating the ceasefire? lmao
i guess you can have more engagement on x, the everything app, so there's your fucking win, retard.
>>260465412 belgian boys make a lot noise
>>2604651It puts more pressure on them than the libs worried about "muh antisemitism"
>>2604641And Venezuela? And Mexico?
>>2604979Edgy, contrarian and retard.
>>2604116
Found the red-brown.
>>2603860Any violence by a subjugated population without even bourgeois rights under imperialist capitalism is acceptable in order to acquire economic sovereignty. You can see this with Marx accepting the separation of Ireland from England if the alternative is the continuation of the subjugation and exploitation of Irish workers, as long as it is not possible to organize English and Irish workers because of English chauvinism that deceives workers into not acquiring solidarity, then separation is an acceptable alternative so that in the future a socialist federation can be formed with more equal relations between Irish and English, but remembering that the ideal would be to organize English and Irish workers together for a socialist revolution acting together. This already helps to understand the position of defending the self-determination of nations that Lenin wrote.
Workers in the imperialist core must cut off and sabotage all funding that maintains the dominance of imperialist capitalism abroad by capitalists and their agents who profit from this type of relationship. This is non-negotiable in order to avoid declining into opportunistic social chauvinism and to show solidarity with the workers of the world. This means that the sale of arms and loans that support the collaborators of imperialist capitalism, maintaining dependency to intensify capitalist exploitation, is not tolerated. All this means that the workers' party must take this position no matter how much it is hated for it, and if a party that pretends to be leftist is in favor of reconciling with capitalist imperialism in the imperialist core under the pretext of saving "democracy" and "freedom" abroad, then this party must be destroyed for serving imperialist capitalism.
Now let's start by explaining to you the question of what capitalist imperialism is with Lenin:
<But very brief definitions, although convenient, for they sum up the main points, are nevertheless inadequate, since we have to deduce from them some especially important features of the phenomenon that has to be defined. And so, without forgetting the conditional and relative value of all definitions in general, which can never embrace all the concatenations of a phenomenon in its full development, we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:
<(1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; (2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital,” of a financial oligarchy; (3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; (4) the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves and (5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed.
<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, 1916, VII. Imperialism as a Special Stage of capitalism.https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch07.htmNow let's look at his position on the types of countries as examples at the time Lenin wrote about the self-determination of nations and capitalist imperialism:
<6. Three Types of Countries in Relation to Self-Determination of Nations<In this respect, countries must be divided into three main types:
<First, the advanced capitalist countries of Western Europe and the United States of America. In these countries the bourgeois, progressive, national movements came to an end long ago. Every one of these “great” nations oppresses other nations in the colonies and within its own country. The tasks of the proletariat of these ruling nations are the same as those of the proletariat in England in the nineteenth century in relation to Ireland.
<Secondly, Eastern Europe: Austria, the Balkans and particularly Russia. Here it was the twentieth century that particularly developed the bourgeois-democratic national movements and intensified the national struggle. The tasks of the proletariat in these countries—in regard to the consummation of their bourgeois-democratic reformation, as well as in regard to assisting the socialist revolution in other countries—cannot be achieved unless it champions the right of nations to self-determination. In this connection the most difficult but most important task is to merge the class struggle of the workers in the oppressing nations with the class struggle of the workers in the oppressed nations.
<Thirdly, the semi-colonial countries, like China, Persia, Turkey, and all the colonies, which have a combined population amounting to a billion. In these countries the bourgeois-democratic movements have either hardly begun, or are far from having been completed. Socialists must not only demand the unconditional and immediate liberation of the colonies without compensation—and this demand in its political expression signifies nothing more nor less than the recognition of the right to self-determination—but must render determined support to the more revolutionary elements in the bourgeois-democratic movements for national liberation in these countries and assist their rebellion—and if need be, their revolutionary war—against the imperialist powers that oppress them.
<V. I. Lenin, The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination, 1916https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htm#fwV22P151F01Now regarding the issue of wars and the opportunists who obscure the truth by trying to defend imperialist capitalist finance capital that maintains dependency to intensify exploitation. I'm only posting this to avoid confusion if someone is reading what I wrote trying to equate the war of a puppet of imperialist capitalism that uses chauvinism against the Russian population with the right of Palestinians to use violence against Israel to acquire economic sovereignty:
<In short: a war between imperialist Great Powers (i.e., powers that oppress a whole number of nations and enmesh them in dependence on finance capital, etc.), or in alliance with the Great Powers, is an imperialist war. Such is the war of 1914–16. And in this war “defence of the fatherland” is a deception, an attempt to justify the war.
<A war against imperialist, i.e., oppressing, powers by oppressed (for example, colonial) nations is a genuine national war. It is possible today too. “Defence of the fatherland” in a war waged by an oppressed nation against a foreign oppressor is not a deception. Socialists are not opposed to “defence of the fatherland” in such a war.
<V. I. Lenin, A Caricature of Marxism and Imperialist Economism, 1. The Marxist Attitude Towards War and “Defence of the Fatherland"https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/1.htm#v23pp64h-029Now a text against those opportunists who equate every war as if it were "inter-imperialist" to defend US hegemony:
<Advanced European (and American) capitalism has entered a new era of imperialism. Does it follow from that that only imperialist wars are now possible? Any such contention would be absurd. It would reveal inability to distinguish a given concrete phenomenon from the sum total of variegated phenomena possible in a given era.
<V. I. Lenin, A Caricature of Marxism and Imperialist Economism, 2. “Our Understanding of the New Era”https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/carimarx/2.htm#v23pp64h-036 >>2605129So why didn’t the Palestine movement succeed in their goals? It’s not about whether or not a tactic is morally justified but whether or not the tactic is effective.
>>2605016>>2605017>>2605026Sorry I don't follow the "party line" of boot harder
>>2605129Palestinians have a right to resist, but so far their resistance has won them very little. Why haven’t they been able to remove the Zios after an almost 80-year long guerrilla war? They keep comparing Palestine to Algeria even though they tried the Algeria/FLN method and failed.
>>2605147Because of US support for Israel. Cut off that support and Israel will essentially cease to exist.
>>2605147Because there is no revolutionary practice without a revolutionary theory.
>>2605169Praxis not practice
>>2605147Yeah Palestine doesn’t have the same terrain as Algeria.
>>2605145Ok ok you want Venezuela and Mexico raped and you hate Ukraine and Israel cause ((bankers))), we get it. No need to pretend.
>>2605140This usually depends on strategy and class struggle to spread propaganda and agitation to the masses for the liberation of the workers and to develop solidarity. Perhaps you think there should be some group of anti-imperialists within the imperialist core who specialize in sabotaging arms shipments and the weapons factories linked to maintaining global capitalist imperialism? I am not using moral appeals in the Palestinian struggle for economic sovereignty because I see my class interests in conjunction with the national liberation struggle; therefore, if a group of workers is abandoned and intensely exploited, this harms the working class as a whole, normalizing greater exploitation, and also if there is a marginalized segment of the population whose lives are further precariousized by capitalist imperialist subjugation, then there will be a similar outcome.
Remember that I respect the martyrs who fought against capitalist imperialism, but these types of situations should be used to increase the number of individuals who can be made aware and radicalized to understand that the effective solution to the world's problems and for the peoples of the world to acquire economic sovereignty lies in serving the communist cause.
>>2603860Did you expect any more from liberals?
>>2606705
Zionism is in the empire’s organic interest. ZOG is a cope for westerners to pretend they aren’t complicit in the genocide
>>2603860>the movement failed not because of the wrong tactics being used but because they were used due to the wrong intentionsreal idealism hours
>>2606719
Jews are just another form of white people no different than Irish or Italians, it’s like calling the UK an Ulster Occupied Government
>>2606746
I’m not a zionist though
>>2606719
Venezuela is about to get invaded by the US tho.
Can't wait for all the ZOG-posters in Tiktok to oppose vehemently the Venezuelan invasion, right?
>>2606921The reactionary people I know irl don't want war and would believe this
Tue encampments would have been useful if they kept doing them instead of just walking away when the repression startded
>>2606955
Dipshit I've been turning wrenches for over a decade and a half. I know these mouth breathing reactionaries well. This is the first time I can speak to them without jumping through hoops. The only thing I have to do is give them a little bit of ZOG flavor so they stay interested.
>>2606969Exactly why Occupy was a failure.
>>2606808
Who fucking needs the MOSSAD when the CIA/MI6/BFW and the western inteligence apparatus collaborate with them and allow their activities idiot.
Europeans and americans bourgeoises and ruling classes want the genocide of palestineans, since zionazis are more profitable, but ofc western leftists would call me generalizing or purity tester, while groyper hitlerites defend the "poor americans following the orders of israel" while secretly aiming to replicate israel domestically.
Neck, and Rooe, NOW!!
>>2606820
you are in my opinion one of the best posters along sindikat in my personal opinion, considering everyone in this site is a either dengoid, turbo hitlerite left groyper, gonzaloid, or treatleriste DSAtard.
>>2605147What I fear is that if Palestine can't win no other liberationist movement will win. Israel is clearly a paper tiger. If Israel still exists in 20 years it means there is no hope for socialism anywhere.
>>2607180
Nah the PFLP called for posts and an awareness campaign, and that’s exactly what they got
>>2607180
So the Pallies were demanding westerners engage in ultra-left adventurism? Okay.
>>2607180
That's cute. Real cute.
>>2607180
Islamists are so retarded lmao
>>2607180
So Hamas truly believed Americans were going to pick up guns and commit mini-October 7ths throughout the US?
Do they think this shit is a movie?
>>2603866i assume he means the food aid that was intercepted by the IDF and probably consumed by them as well
>>2606946
>Israel invented the Monroe Doctrine
Burgers and Israelis are in a pact. Burgers will keep funding Israel's genocide of Palestinians, and Israel will take the blame for the entirety of US foreign policy going back to 1776
>>2603860The Palestine movement failed because we reached such levels of global capitalism that regional identities and religions are not important enough to start wars for them. The Persian and Egyptian ruling classes therefore made the rational decision that they wouldn't support the Palestinians because there are no profits to be made from that war. Now if it is not important enough for them, you can imagine how weak of calling that is in Europe or America.
>>2607030Thank you comrade. Too bad the mods banned me for that post.
>>2607309>The American left has been drifting aimlessly since Bernie Sanders’ defeat in 2020. All the major issues of the 10s have dropped off the political agenda. There is no longer any serious talk of Medicare-For-All or Tuition-Free-College. Healthcare and higher education remain prohibitively expensive. And meanwhile, the housing market has become an absolute nightmare. The price of a typical home has increased more than twice as fast as inflation since the 1960s, and higher interest rates during the Biden years have pushed mortgages beyond the reach of millions. We are quickly approaching a breaking point, where a home will no longer be a plausible part of the American dream, even for many college-educated professionals. But the left has very little to say about any of this. Instead, it has a great deal to say about Gaza.
>Why Gaza? We’re told it’s what the kids care about. How do we know that? Young people are going to protests on college campuses and in blue cities. On TikTok, Gaza seems to get a lot of attention. Okay, so what?Yeah who cares about stopping an actual genocide as long as I get my healthcare, right?
>>2603860No one in their right mind should be going to NYU in the first place. That school is basically a yeshiva.
>>2607837No one should live in New York at all, empty it, chopped cheese for the whole nation
>>2603860We need a word for blaming people protesting the bad thing instead of the people actually doing the bad thing.
It's so fucking retarded.
>um sweaty you could have stopped the genocide supported by the most powerful country on Earth if only you had protested the way I wanted to :^) >>2607818Yeah surely if everyone just shut up about the genocide we'd instantly get Medicare for All and free college.
It's not like we have decades of political history to show that's not the case, including Bernie's own fucking campaigns.
What is mental retardation? This is mental retardation:
Against Israel, Against Palestine - For Class Struggle
No stronger an image of the essence of nationalism can be seen than in the endless parade of coffins of Palestinians draped in flags. Nationalism is poison in the veins of the working class. Nowhere is this clearer than in Israel today. A working class stands divided and helpless, torn between two hostile bourgeois camps. Though the Israeli side has the entire weight of US imperialist muscle behind it this does not make the camps of Islamism and Palestinian nationalism less an enemy of the Arab workers. National chauvinism and religion have been skillfully employed by the bourgeoisie in destroying the most basic elements of class-consciousness and internationalism among the workers.
The project of national liberation, the so-called "right of nations to self-determination" is the project of the bourgeoisie that was completed as the imperialist phase of capitalism began. Today ability of a national bourgeoisie to realize its project of national liberation hinges entirely in its capacity to mobilize backing and capital from a major imperialist power. This was clear from the very struggles that created Israel itself, with both sides of this bourgeois conflict actively seeking support from any power that is willing to listen. Both the Mufti of Jerusalem, al-Hajj Amin al-Husayni, and the Haganah sought the aid of Fascist Italy and Germany, not to mention the actions of the Irgun against British imperialism on behalf of the imperialist powers of the Axis. What the British military governor of Jerusalem, Sir Ronald Storrs called "a little loyal Jewish Ulster" was always exactly that. Today Washington's loyal Jewish Ulster is in the grip of an intractable conflict far worse than anything seen in Northern Ireland.
The bourgeois project of national liberation succeeds only in so far as it is able to mobilize the proletariat. Marx and Engels supported national self-determination only in that it would sweep away pre-capitalist classes and create a modern proletariat capable of defeating the capitalist class. Lenin and the Bolsheviks supported it as a means of buying time for the young Soviet state until the outbreak of a world revolution that would break the Russian proletariat out of its isolation. This tactic failed as the revolutionary wave passed and was codified into a dogma by the counterrevolutionaries who took power under the banner of "socialism". Such dogmas, eternal principles are the codification of failures and defeats suffered by workers and their parties. National liberation today only serves as a means of expanding the influence of one imperialist power at the expense of another. No nation today can break free from the grip of imperialism as the sorry history of such movements clearly attests.
Some forces of capitalism's left-apparatus, those who pose as revolutionaries (Maoists, Stalinists, Trotskyists and official Anarchists), support the national liberation projects of the bourgeoisie as a way of appearing militant and opposing exploitation and oppression. They cannot support one national liberation movement without violating the other nation's "right to self-determination. This puts the left wing of capitalism into ideological contortions in order to justify their opportunistic and bourgeois solutions. The most transparent of the counterrevolutionaries claim that all national liberation movements are the absolute preconditions for world revolution. At their most deceptive they appear as being critical of the individual movements themselves while lending "critical support" or stating that a new type of national liberation movement independent of imperialism should be created to give "true" national self-determination. In Israel two competing nationalist entities are locked in a struggle to the death and neither fraction of the bourgeoisie has anything to offer workers except sacrifice and bloodshed.
Historically there no such thing as a "Palestinian" people, simply Arabs who lived in what was once a piece of the British mandate. As a nationalist ideology it grew more slowly and was economically weaker than the nationalism that formed the modern state of Israel. The Mufti of Jerusalem, as the representative of the Arab rulers in Palestine failed in courting Nazi patronage for an Arab state as German imperialism felt this would negatively impact its Vichy French allies' hold over the French mandate in what is now Lebanon and Syria. The Zionists succeeded in pulling together the support of any imperialist power willing to lend it any kind of assistance, no matter that this assistance came from the Axis powers, Stalin's USSR, Churchill's Britain or Roosevelt's US. Without sufficient capital and the backing of the most powerful imperialist entities, the Palestinian bourgeoisie formed as a ruling class without a country. Because the Israeli bourgeoisie had the capital and the support of the imperialist power of the US they were able to invent a country and lay claim to a former piece of the Ottoman Empire. World capitalism's "final solution" to the problem posed by Jews was first to propagate among them their own nationalism and finally give them their own nation. This nationalism was the perfect antidote for the capitalism killing disease of internationalism and independent class-consciousness. For British imperialism Israel represented a Jewish "Ulster" in the heart of the Arab world. For the US it represents an indispensable foothold in the crossroads of Asia, Europe and Africa.
As a state Israel was ever the creation and tool of the bourgeoisie as surely as the rise of the modern nation was tied to the rise of the capitalist class. If it can be said by Israel's national chauvinists that there are no Palestinians, only Arabs, it can equally be said that there are no Israelis, only a group of disparate people gathered together arbitrarily from the four corners of the earth and vaguely united on the basis of a divided religion. Even the official language of Modern Hebrew was a fabrication, a dredging up of a liturgical language that was subsequently filled in with borrowings from other languages like Arabic in order to modernize it. All of the bourgeois sharks, Jewish and Arab, moved in on the disputed territory of Palestine in order to create the facts on the ground that would make for a political order that would work in their favor. Workers have no country. Everywhere they will be subject. Everywhere the bourgeoisie will ruthlessly exploit them.
Conditions are so bad among the Palestinians that fifty-three percent of Palestinian women and children living in the West Bank and Gaza are currently suffering from malnutrition and anemia, according to the United States Agency for International Development (USAID). The poverty and oppression of Palestinians isn't going to change with the introduction of two states. This solution has always been the solution of the Stalinists. Israeli Stalinists have long supported this as it allows them to be good Israeli nationalists while supporting "self-determination" for the Palestinians at the same time, and most of the rest of capitalism's leftwing, peace activists, Trotskyists, Anarchists and other "libertarians" parrot this same line more or less openly. The PA was created to contain Palestinians and control them, a tool of one bourgeoisie putting another bourgeoisie in power in order to contain a desperate population. The "two state solution" would be little more than the extension of a political franchise to this set-up and would mean nothing more than the creation of reservations for Palestinians entirely dependent on Israel and the US for their existence. This will not improve the condition of those workers who are citizens of Israel in the least. The situation of all workers in Israel and the occupied territories is the result of a crisis that goes to the very heart of capitalism itself. They can only expect that the bourgeoisie will continue to ask them to sacrifice more and more.
The situation is so hopeless that Palestinian workers, once among those more inclined to Arab nationalism than Islamic religious reaction are now gravitating towards groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. As the US supported and fostered Muslim fundamentalism in Middle East and Central Asia, so Israel also supported the religious reactionaries of Hamas to counter the Arab Nationalists under the PLO umbrella. The sick irony of this is that the Israeli state actually supported an organization like Hamas that is virulently anti-Semitic. The one thing to which all parties responsible for this conflict agree is that the misery and exploitation of workers must continue, that the war must continue on forever.
Peace drips from the tongues of the capitalists as the blood drips from their hands. The pacifist camp has no solution; it can only call for a peace that will not happen while supporting a state that makes endless war. Pacifism supports the militarism of the Israeli government while issuing slogans and statements to pacify a population sick of war. Pacifism acts to politically neuter any working class opposition to the imperialist war. The political forces that most consistently promote capitalist "peace" are the most faithful allies of the warlords of capital. As the war rages everyone is calling for peace especially the capitalists who can only offer more war. Imperialism only succeeds in its ambitions insofar as it is able to mobilize proletarians and keep them silent, isolated and afraid.
An end to this conflict rests in the hands of the workers alone. As impossible as it seems the only way of stopping this is through the revolutionary defeatism of workers themselves. They can consciously choose to organize themselves, to stop following orders and to actively work against the Israeli state and the Palestinian Authority. Workers are capable of being more than just dogs on the capitalist leash. They are capable of being more than the eternally helpless victims of history.
>>2607858>Against IsraelIt's funny how the first two words are already lies. This is clearly hasbara.
IDF doesn't need you to be pro-Zionist, they just need you to not be anti-Zionist.
>>2607860Guess where I got this article from.
>>2607861Some rag no doubt.
Also: re Dugin. I don't know what the hell Dugin talks about. But I don't think it's a queston of abstract theory? It's the concrete social praxis of Hamas that should be the focus if you were going to attempt an explanation of their support in the occupied territories.
>>2607975leftcom.org lmao
>>2607309This article is largely correct. How can the left materially accomplish the goal they want in Palestine (i.e. a full decolonization fantasy whereby all Israeli Jews are expelled and Palestine returns to what it was pre-Balfour Declaration)? We don’t have boots on the ground there. We can’t supply weapons to Hamas or the PFLP. We can stir up the chaos necessary to cause 7.2 million Israeli Jews to flee. We tried the mass protests and they failed. Boycotts? You think Israel is harmed at all by Starbucks losing revenue? Again, what has to happen for the goals to be achieved and what is our strategy to accomplish those goals? Politicians have been pressured and they don’t do shit.
>>2607994If the right stops supporting Israel we may have a chance.
>>2607994To say you're putting the cart before the horse would be a massive fucking understatement.
Even a basic ceasefire and withdrawal would be a HUGE achievement compared to what we have now (ongoing genocide).
Why does it fall on protesters and internet leftists to come up with a complicated perfect century-spanning policy proposal? And if they don't have one then everyone should just give up? Fighting against genocide is the priority.
Just shut the fuck up already.
>>2608486I assumed having maximalist demands was important since it keeps the final goal in mind and forces activists to remain principled and committed.
The BDS movement was so hard to follow because it was already too late. Coca-Cola, Disney, McDolands, Google, and Microsoft already own like 50% of the government That's a joke but you get the point and it is practically impossible to avoid them, Its not impossible to boycott them but it is impossible to not see they're logos at least once a day in Amerikkka.
>>2608525BDS became more about consumer policing ("You drank at Starbucks? FUCK YOU!" CANCELLED!") than about draining Israel of funds.
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"
>>2608526Well no it is about draining funds, it has good intentions behind it is just that some boomers get too carried away.
>>2608526>>2608528Is there any evidence BDS has hurt Israel's economy?
>>2608525I always find it funny when non-americans do everything to move to America and then become apostles of BDS.
Brother, the companies on the boycott list are the definition of Americanism 😅
>>2608525BDS is liberalism
>>2608725there is evidence that it didn't do shit yes.
every israeli company that operates globally experienced a minimal change in profits (because nobody cares outside the anglo space)
>>2608725Isn’t the top AI company living to Israel?
>>2608518No it doesn’t. It plays into infeasible fantasies.
I'd be more convinced to help Palestine if I was assured they still had a chance of winning. Right now, the Palestinian resistance (whatever that means) is the weakest it's ever been in history. Gaza is obliterated. There is no real fighting in the West Bank anymore (although that may change now that Bibi has approved more settlements). Mahmoud Abbas is a sellout and 90 years old and ready to die. He has no clear successor which means the PA will probably fall into chaos. Most of the Hamas leaders are dead. Hizballah is being forced to disarm by the Lebanese government. Syria is headed back into chaos. Yemen is in chaos and I haven't heard of the Houthis doing anything in months. Iran is in utter shit right now thanks to their water crisis and their supreme leader pushing 90 as well meaning he may die soon. On what basis will the Palestinians win? Are they just waiting for Israel to collapse under the weight of its own internal contradictions? I fucking swear, I've been hearing that same narrative for almost 20 years now. When does Israel fall apart? And if it does, why are we placing all our eggs in one basket with the idea that the Palestinians will rise up and seize back the homes they lost in 1948? Wouldn't that just lead to a full blown civil war? C'mon now. I need some reason to believe I'm wrong.
>>2609904The Palestinian movement over the last 30 years is effectively a ritualistic sacrifice of women and children to the Zionist God. There is no other explanation. Upon seeing the hundreds of videos of dead children, I ask myself, did we not know that Zionists are fascist animals already? Who is surprised? So my outrage funnily was not even against Zionists. No savagery from them can surprise me anymore. My outrage was towards Hamas. What was the strategy and objectives behind October 7? Raising awareness and preventinf Saudi-Palestinian rapproachment cannot justify the predictable slaughter of the civilians in tens (hundreds?) of thousands. To the retarded Hamas leadership: what was the great plan, you stupid bastard?
The Arabs need to look at 1947 until now, and recognise that they are on a generational run of losses, and tailor a more modest, albeit more humiliating, objective. You cannot just sloganeer your way to victory.
>>2609909Hamas doesn't care how many Palestinians they need to sacrifice. October 7th was years in the making. It wasn't some grand spontaneous revolt. They knew Israel would utterly destroy them and kill thousands – if not hundreds of thousands – of Gazans but that's what they wanted. October 7th happened because Hamas leadership wanted to go out with a bang.
>>2609916I can't imagine being a muslim in the region and still being an islamist. How much of a cuck can you be?
>>2609931Yeah that was partially my point. Hamas has hijacked the Gazan civil population completely. One needs to be mature and accept that the Palestinian movement has lost too many battles over many decades, and thus a 'satisfactory' outcome againstvthe Zionists is impossible. That ship has sailed. They need to compromise and accept any deal which will give them basic survivability. Humiliating, yes, but that's the real world: repeatedly losing and repeatedly having retarded leaders has a very very costly price.
>>2609934Well the moment you're religious you're already halfway retarded. So it's not hard to make the complete leap forward into fundamentlist retardation.
>>2609937I honestly don't know what they can realistically do at this point. 80% of Gaza has been levelled, probably more. Israel still won't let aid in on the basis that Hamas will take the supplies and use them to build more weapons, as if Hamas has any capability to carry out future attacks.
>>2609916you act like arabs are a united block nah nobody gives a fuck about his neighbour palestine is alone in this one for the most part idk is there hope or should we all just kill ourselves before some russian saboteur does? do you think we dont know were on the losing side already? what it the alternative waiting patiently to get killed? be it by bullets or poisoned water or slow starvation, would the jews in ww2 have a chance against the nazis if it wasnt for brits and americans and soviets helping them obviously not but we are brown so fuck it let us die
>>2609937 >>2609916you act like there were never moderate palestinians trying to broker a one state for all or two states for palis and isracunts guess who had to go back to killing and bombing civs every time there is no use in negotiating with israelis maybe you have noticed already how they treat ceasefires
>>2609941dont tell me you wouldnt turn to religion as a cope if your homeland gets utterly destroyed and family killed even if you dont belive in it, look at how american christians react when some neocon propagandist gets kirked, imagine how they would act if their country got destroyed and family killed
kus um el dunya
>>2609946>you act likeNo I dont 'act like' anything, emotional idiot. I do not have to include every little detail of the Palestinian movement's history to make a correct observation about the current situation.
Why should I mention the moderates when they have not been relevant for decades now?
Why should I mention Palestinian marxists when they play subordinate roles to Islamists or are no longer relevant at all since the 80s?
Learn how to think after reading, and then formulate coherent answers.
>>2609946>turn to religion as a copeFrom Morocco to Indonesia, every muslim retard has his special excuse.
>>2609946>russian saboteurWhat are you talking about? What russian sabotage?
>>2609904>>2609909The inconvenient truth is that no other countries except Iran come to the Palestinians' aid because it's just not worth it to do so. The only reason any country would support Palestine over Israel is wanting to be on the right side of history (virtue signally basically). The fact is, imperialist countries and even counter-imperialist countries like China support Israel because it's profitable to do so. They benefit from trade with Israel and getting their hands on Israeli technology and whatnot. Cutting Israel off and supporting Palestine 100% serves them no benefit except sleeping well at night knowing you supported the victim over the villain.
I blame the Arabs
Russia sacrificed like 30-40 millions to defeat the same type of fascist genocidal colonialist mad dog once, if Arab leaders had any dignity all of them from Marrakesh to Muscat would be organizing a joint invasion of ""Israel""
I'd also like to remind the zionists won't stop at Palestine, they want their generalplan ost to the entirety of the levant and even half of Arabia(Idpol)
>>2609966It is more probable that Pakistani (yes I know they are not arabs) troops will be deployed to police Gaza on behalf of America-Israel than an armed liberation of Palestine by a coalition of proper Arab professional armies.
>>2609956Again, I get all of that. We all know this. Since the USSR fell, Palestine lost its only supporter. (The USSR could do more, but still no one else stepped up). If we know that, the Hamas relgious retards know that even better than us. And yet they dice headfirst in this suicidal missions. Suicidal for them and genocidal for the civilian population.
How dare anyone call the PLO compradors? Or collaborators? Of course they collaborate with Israel, because they have repeatedly lost and they had to make a choice: (humiliating) survival or total death. As rational (despite the corruption) people, they chose collaboration. What's the point in an emotional resistance which you know for sure will slaughter everyone? Fuck islamist retards. I hope they get shafted for eternity in their shitty Jannah.
>>2609966Arabs, despite putting airs of hyper-masculinity and aggressivity, are extremely effeminate and irrationally sentimental. Rational strategy backed by courageous deeds is almost impossible for them unless fueled by the feudal-fascist ideology of Islam.
>emotional idiotoh yeah sorry for having basic human emotions you fucking westoid freak
>>2609949>Why should I mention the moderates when they have not been relevant for decades now? western puppet abbas is still president he played nice with zios and is now completely under their control
>>2609949>Why should I mention Palestinian marxists when they play subordinate roles to Islamists or are no longer relevant at all since the 80s? who gives them weapons? its not like theres international support for independence groups anymore like there was with the soviets and they still need weapons, gaza is tiny and its hard to smuggle shit in there si they take anyhting they can.
the truth is nothing the palestinians do can offset the international funding israel gets especially from the west, even if all palestinians suddenly turn into perfect marxists that whouldnt change the situation or do any of you have a better idea oh what could be done surely you 200000iq westerners know all about it (anything but cutting western support for israel tho even if it would solve the issue in like 2 months)
>>2609953stfu westoid hope you get kirked islam is cancer but i dont wanna hear it from you when you do worse shit than these retard islamists could even come up with also why do you always fund extremist governments almost as if you want to stunt the development of those countries but yeah keep killing off everyone who tries to change shit and then blame the lack of progress on them dzmb brown 80iq muzzies right
>>2609975>As rational (despite the corruption) people, they chose collaboration.you know that whenever someone collaborated the israelis had to fuck it up immediately by killing and locking up civs there if you make peace with them you get fucked has oslo worked?
>>2609955leftypol autocorrects a famous word for jews starting with k as russian sboteur
>>2609980'Westoid' does horrible imperialism therefore I will lick the ass of islamists despite recognising it is retarded.
I am not a westerner btw. Not everyone who criticises you is a westoid. Other people are capable of independent and critical thought as well.
>>2607853Man the point he's making is that American leftists are not trying to appeal to the masses anymore. Like, do you think communist parties in Turkey or India talk about the genocide in Sudan or Myanmar? The Turkish gov was implicated in the former and the indian gov in the latter, is it because these parties dont care/endorse those genocides?
>>2609982> I will lick the ass of islamists despite recognising it is retarded. how did i licl their asses i just said i dont see a viable alternative to the current way of doing things for the resistance despite how futile it is but ok lets say they arent muslim but all marxists without international support, while israel gets evrything for free how are they realistically supposed to act? trying to make peace also doesnt work and the neighbours dont want to get involved tell me what can the people there do?
>>2609985The point isn't that "we should shut up about genocides". The point is "our main platform should not just be about humanitarian disasters but bread and butter issues". If you really care about genocide in Gaza then win elections, get into government and stop aid to Israel.
>>2609941>islam is cancer but i dont wanna hear it from youLmao
>>2609966>Russia sacrificed like 30-40 millions to defeat the same type of fascist genocidal colonialist mad dog onceThat was one state being directely attacked. Egypt isn't being invaded. Nor Iran. We marxists should know this. Nations and their consequences and all of that.
>>2609956The whole truth is that the only power that could end the palestine genocide are Israeli workers. The ammount of nationalism and supremacism in the region makes it near impossible. But that doesn't make it false.
>>2610016>Israeli workers. The ammount of nationalism and supremacism>>2610016>Israeli workersOxymoron
>>2609966Zionist subhuman janny banned him for speaking the truth
>>2609979>feudal-fascist ideology of Islam.Fuck off ziorat
>>2610115Islam is not a feudal-fascist cancer? Tell me more, anon.
>>2609966In what universe is this 'idpol'? Can jannies read ?
>>2609966>they want their generalplan ost to the entirety of the levant and even half of ArabiaJannoid banned him for this probably
Why do you kvetch whenever someone mentions eretz israhell project (((janny)))? Hiding something?
>>2610119Feudalism was nonexistent in Muslim societies and fascism is a modern western ideology
Only zionist cockroaches like you use shitty meaningless islamophobic namecallings like these, all islamophobic industry is zionist
>>2610121I dont see how implying Israel has an expansionist project is 'idpol'.
Surely I would not be banned for 'idpol' if I say BJP in India has a 'greater India' fantasy encompassing Afganistan, Pakistan, Myanmar?
>>2610126Jannoid is a cryptozionist most likely
>>2610125Marxism-Leninism is Islamophobic. Like it is Christophobic, Judeophobic, Hinduphobic etc.
Marxists-Leninists will not bow to your backwards cancerous ideology.
>>2610125>Feudalism was nonexistent in Muslim societies and fascism is a modern western ideologyRetard islamist. Only thing you all know is killing muslims and building stadiums with slaves.
>>2607858Only decent Marxist piece I've seen on the situation
>>2610168The palestinian boojjwa in question: a shawarma seller who opens a second a shop (the first one will be blown up by IDF in a few months anyway)
>>2607858Fuck off, no settler colony has a right to exist and there will be no solution until "israel" is completely dismantled, the colonizers kicked back to Poland and reparations paid to Palestine
Death to Zionism and "israelis"
Leftcoms = agents of imperialism
Leftcoms read Marx instead of trying to repeat revolutionary movements only suited to pre capitalist environments.
>>2609904The truth no one wants to hear.
>>2610174Okay, and how is this accomplished? What are we supposed to do to achieve this, when we’re not in Gaza and can’t pick up guns to fight the IDF?
>>2609904B-b-b-but retards in /usapol/ are insisting that Hamas won and Israel lost. How could that be?
>>2610174>settler colonyClass struggle is bigger than colonialism .Israeli workers are the only ones who can end the genocide. That's why the propaganda is so strong. No ammount of moralism will change that fact.
>>2610651Then the colonialism will never stop because there is no way these animals will do it
>>2610657Your nationalism trumps your imagination. You carry ᴉuᴉlossnW's corpse.
>>26106577 million Jews aren’t going anywhere. Even if mass expulsion was the “solution” there’s still nothing western activists can do.
>>2610763>there’s still nothing western activists can do.Cut off material support for Isn’treal. No more weapons and financial support. Their colony will be thrown into chaos and collapse.
>>2610827
You’re talking about 7 million people. Pieds-Noirs were only about 1.4 million. Huge difference.
Also, even if that’s what we wanted, WHAT THE HELL DO WE DO to make that a reality? The Palestinian resistance is at its weakest point in recent history. How do they set the conditions for a mass exodus of Jews?
>inb4
>BDS has inflicted gorillions in economic damage
>TOTAL Palestinian ANTI-ZIONISM VICTORY
>>2610827
On what basis will they all leave? You don’t know that for certain. If Israel collapses and the Palestinians try to storm the country all that will happen is a massive civil war.
>>2610833Yeah your average Israeli isn’t hurt by Starbucks losing a few profits. There aren’t even Starbucks in Israel.
>>2609966>I'd also like to remind the zionists won't stop at Palestine, they want their generalplan ost to the entirety of the levant and even half of ArabiaThis is obviously true and it's bizarre to label this "idpol".
They are very open about their long-term goals.
The genocide is horrible on its own merits but it's not JUST about the Palestinians, destroying Palestine is just the first step.
>>2610861Okay, so how do we stop them?
>>2610877You'd have to take control of the US government and completely defund Israel to the point that they're left to their own devices and forced to acquiesce to the demands of their neighbors (and international pressure) or flee en masse.
>>2610877>Okay, so how do we stop them?I'm a retard so don't take anything I say with any authority. It seems to me, that the whole ME region is policed through Israel or using Israel as an excuse for NATO to move on their behalf. Either way, imagine how devastating it would be if, for whatever reason NATO lost that region to the no doubt much better deals BRICS would be willing to pile on their doors. As soon as there is no expectation that terms too unfavorable or players to independent would be amended by NATO interventions.
If you ask me, mind the handicap, this whole deal with Gaza was just that. Some powers contesting US hegemony, everyone playing their cards and cutting their losses after "resolution". Much to the misery of everyone involved other than financially. A similar thing to Ukraine. US hegemony restored but, at what cost we won't know yet.
>>2610882On what basis will Israel go belly-up without US support? This assumes Israel can't find allies elsewhere, like with India for instance.
>>2610991>It seems to me, that the whole ME region is policed through Israel So the MENA has no other contradictions except Israel?
>>2610882>or flee en masse.Why would they flee?
Is removing Jews from between the river and the sea really necessary? Why is this some grand demand of the pro-Palestine movement when 10 years ago we were talking about a one state solution with mutual coexistance and equal rights for all?
>>2611006We've passed that point now. 7 million people don't just leave in a short amount of time.
>>2603860There is nothing to be done. Palestinians are doomed
>>2611036Been saying this. Everyone who is coming up with these hypothetical "ISRAEL WILL INEVITABLY COLLAPSE, PALESTINE WILL WIN" scenarios is seriously coping. Even if we assume Israel becomes unstable, how do we know the Palestinian resistance will be strong enough to barge in and take over the country? October 7th was their last ditch effort and it resulted in not only a full-blown genocide but also a huge weakening of Palestinian strength. Thousands of their fighters died. Most of their regional allies are too weak to help them. So what's left?
>>2611058Le condeeteeons are not le historeekallee favoreeableh. Thees ees le blackest reacteeon. Staleen was refereeeeng to himself, actually, when he was tuhlkeeng of blackest reeackteeon
‘’No revolutionary practice without a revolutionary theory.’’
>>2611058>Even if we assume Israel becomes unstable, how do we know the Palestinian resistance will be strong enough to barge in and take over the country? This.
"All settler colonies fail, therefore Israel will die" means jack shit if the Palestinians can't win a military struggle.
>>2611082More like "all settler colonies declare independence".
>>2611077t. son of a whore
>>2611082USA, Australia, Canada, New Zealand are just a few settler colonies which achieved total victory.
Al-Falasteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen.
Why don't the Palestinians do gorilla warfare?
>>2611121They have for almost 80 years and look at where it's gotten them.
The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Like, no one believes the Palestinians don't have a right to resist. Of course they do. But we're talking about what strategies are effective, and so far armed resistance hasn't been effective in their situation.
Why were the Algerians good at kicking out the French and the Vietnamese good at kicking out both the French and the Americans but the Palestinians can't kick out the Jews?
>>2611126Mods permaban this voluntarist lib
>>2611096Name others that didnt.
>>2611199Nothing new was said here. Same old same old.
>>2611133Mods permaban this well-poisoner.
>>2611199Kek, he defends Chomsky at 46 minutes. Did he miss the part about him being buddies with Epstein?
>>2611203Fink is a good guy. He could have been a great guy had he completely cleansed his Trotsko-Maoist hangover from his youth and his irrational anti-Stalin hysteria.
>>2609909>Upon seeing the hundreds of videos of dead children, I ask myself, did we not know that Zionists are fascist animals already? Who is surprised? So my outrage funnily was not even against Zionists. No savagery from them can surprise me anymore.After 10/7 there was a lot of (perhaps understandable) optimism but my attitude was dark. The Israelis did pretty much what they said they were going to do. I don't think this approach of trying to destroy Israel with military force is going to work, it hasn't worked, it seems to make the situation worse, but I can't bring myself to "condemn" Hamas (or whatever it is people are expected to do over here) either.
>>2609934>I can't imagine being a muslim in the region and still being an islamist. How much of a cuck can you be?>>2609941>Well the moment you're religious you're already halfway retarded. So it's not hard to make the complete leap forward into fundamentlist retardation.Well I'm one of these post-Enlightenment postmodern irreligious bugmen who is not from the Middle East, but my sense is that religion is much thicker in the air over there and is more like a communal identity that would almost come across to Westerners as akin to an ethnicity. I mean, just look at the Israelis. In fact, the Jewish religion has been growing in Israeli society (including in the army) and I think that's also in part due to influence from the Mizrahim. A lot of the early Zionists (1950s) who came from Europe didn't like religion. Also I can bet you that the average Mizrahi soldier is way more brutal than the average Ashkenazi soldier.
Like here in the United States, religion is usually a personal relationship with God and also a voluntary choice in terms of what church you go to. It's like you "have" a religion. Over there it's like which religion *are* you. Even in Israel they don't have civil marriage, they use an inherited structure from the Ottoman Empire, which means that even if I don't consider myself a Christian because I don't believe in God, if I were an Israeli citizen and wanted to get married there, it'd be done through a Christian church. The Jews go through the Israeli chief rabbinate. The Muslims through sharia courts. Because that's what religion "is" there. Well it's very complicated.
>>2611126>Why were the Algerians good at kicking out the French and the Vietnamese good at kicking out both the French and the Americans but the Palestinians can't kick out the Jews?Because the Jews are not the French or Americans. It's just a category error. There are structural similarities, like there *are* Jewish settlements (which are now growing even faster) and the Palestinians live under military occupation (which is brutal and engenders resistance). The Palestinian resistance movement has also deliberately tried to replicate the FLN model and apply it to their own conditions. But there's a problem with a strategy that is based on the Israelis behaving like the French in Algeria if they just don't behave like the French, because they don't think like the French.
This has strategic implications because classic anti-colonial guerrilla / insurgent theory is about getting inside the enemy's mind. An insurgent often doesn't make it as their primary goal to defeat the enemy on the battlefield like a conventional army does to another conventional army, it's to convince the enemy (through violence) that the war is optional and isn't worth the costs so they leave. But if the Israelis cannot be persuaded like this, then that strategy is not going to work.
It's the psychology. The Israeli Jews are not even like American Jews. Not justifying what they do, but you have to think about how they think and how history and their own experience produced a different mentality from American soldiers in Vietnam who didn't even want to be there in the first place. This guy Gadi Taub is a very right-wing Israeli (who is full of shit about a lot of things) but this is how he summed up the Zionist philosophy and I believe he believes what he's saying. I checked in on his podcast after those Jews got shot in Australia. I check in on the Zionists from time to time.
A bunch of them were refugees fleeing the Holocaust and even Gromyko (a very hard man, Stalin's representative to the U.N. when Palestine was partitioned) said nobody went through what the Jews experienced in WWII. Israeli nationalism is very strong. Others are from Middle Eastern countries like Yemen, Syria, and Iraq. If we want to insist on analogies it might be closer to India/Pakistan, the Balkans, or Armenia/Azerbaijan.
>>2611220
The world WAS hostile to the jews, that has not been the case for many decades now.
The fundamental assumption behind Zionism is that the world is hostile to Jews so they need (a) a Jewish state and (b) an army. Then add several hundred nuclear warheads. That's their answer. I don't think that was the motivation behind French colonialism in Algeria? That's what the Pied-Noirs thought about what they were doing? I don't think so.
This is also why they're really bad at P.R. (although they spend a lot of resources on it) because I don't think they really believe deep down that others can really be persuaded to like them. The American Jews probably do believe that. But I don't think the Israelis really care what the rest of the world thinks – it's pretty obvious that they do not care about international opinion if you go by their actions. They might care about the United States because they see benefits there. But the Europeans? Forget it.
>>2611210>It's the psychology. The Israeli Jews are not even like American Jews. Not justifying what they do, but you have to think about how they think and how history and their own experience produced a different mentality from American soldiers in Vietnam who didn't even want to be there in the first place. This guy Gadi Taub is a very right-wing Israeli (who is full of shit about a lot of things) but this is how he summed up the Zionist philosophy and I believe he believes what he's saying. I checked in on his podcast after those Jews got shot in Australia. I check in on the Zionists from time to time.
>A bunch of them were refugees fleeing the Holocaust and even Gromyko (a very hard man, Stalin's representative to the U.N. when Palestine was partitioned) said nobody went through what the Jews experienced in WWII. Israeli nationalism is very strong. Others are from Middle Eastern countries like Yemen, Syria, and Iraq. If we want to insist on analogies it might be closer to India/Pakistan, the Balkans, or Armenia/Azerbaijan.Most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi and Sephardi (Spanish Jews who took refuge in North Africa and the Ottoman Empire after the Inquisition), and by all accounts they think like others from the Middle East. They don't see themselves as European colonizers because they aren't European and don't hold to the same mindset. Not to mention, even the Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are mostly the descendants of Holocaust survivors or Jews who fled other persecutions in Europe (there are even Ashkenazi Israelis whose ancestors fled to Palestine from Czarist pogroms in Russia in the early 1900s).
>>2611221Corrected a typo. That may be right, but you have to convince them of that. You don't have to convince me. But I think this is why this military strategy doesn't work because it confirms in their minds what they already believe and therefore they're just going to double down. It doesn't undermine their assumptions like Americans in Vietnam going in there and thinking these people want to be like Americans or whatever Americans believed.
>>2611210So you think there's no chance the Israelis will flee?
>>2611253Why should they have to flee?
>>2611210>but I can't bring myself to "condemn" Hamas (or whatever it is people are expected to do over here) either.I can. They are islamists whose strategy of class colaboration and martydom doesn't work by definition. And we have seen the practise.
>>2609966So all of this is idpol (correct) but whining about "subhumans americans" isn't?
>>2611210I do not 'condemn' Hamas. This whole condemning or not is very weird to a Marxist. I can 'condemn' American imperialism all day long and that changes nothing.
I just refuse to participate in this collective self-brainwashing where we repeat like a mantra that 'Israel lost' and Hamas 'won' when 90% of Gaza is levelled, about 100k civilians are dead (half being women and children) and 80% of the leadership of Hamas is dead. All of this for what in return? Israel lost no allies, Israel did not stop receiving (a shit ton of) money from America, the IDF did not lose many soldiers, Israel's infrastructure is almost intact etc.
Too many 'comrades' will call you 'rabbi/Moshe/Mossad/zionist' for simply calling a spade a spade: October 7th did nothing but screw rhe already screwed Palestinians harder.
And one has to be a special kind of retard to see this carnage being worth the cancellation (i suspect its just a delaying) of Saudi-Israeli normalisation of relations. The Arab leaders and ruling classes are doing what they gotta do regardless of 'official normalisation' anyway.
>>2611222>they they they they they>implying le common will of le peopleMods, ban this lib
>>2611335Hamas was just israels tool
>>2611203He’s also wrong about Chomsky being remembered. Most millennials stopped caring about him after he started shitting on anti-fascism.
>>2612206Literally most Palestine activism in the US is demanding the Democrats move a bit further to the left on the issue.
>>2612209And in the EU its literally doing the same as the USA but handwringing about it, when not outright lying, and while celebrating ourselves as the saviors of Palestine for *doing*, but not saying,the same thing as the most outspoken genociders inside Israel.
Lets boil it down to the most basic question, for the most basic participant, of liberal democracy:
>This politician, party or whatever is demonstrably, majorly responsible for exterminating Gaza.>Will you vote for them?The answer is never "no" in any significant numbers *during the worst of the Israeli policies*
>>2612206You can't fix this without being antisemitic
Antisemitism helps Israel
>>2612380Yeah I don't think the people saying "let's dump even more Jews onto the heads of the Palestinians" have thought their strategy through.
>>2603860What is to be done?
That is for the Palestinian people to decide, not Kentrell or Kayleigh.
>>2612592The Palestinians have routinely demanded Kentrell and Kayleigh help them though.
>>2612635Which resulted in the Glorious Victory in the Great Electronic Intifada, from the Instagram Front to the Tik Tok Front, unconditional victory of Kentrell and Kayleigh
and 100k dead civilians, 80% of Hamas leadership decapitated, infrastructure of Gaza completely gone but hey Mckayleigh and Keightlynn helped!!! ♡♡♡ >>2612206Israel worker power. It's the only way. That's why it's almost impossible.
>What is to be done? That is for the Palestinian people to decideLibs I swear.
>>2612706we have nothing to learn from this bitch ass uygha
Come the heat, he will find refuge in the warm belly of the beast and leave me to die in the fields
>>2612645>It exposed most people for being disgusting slaves <who love to find reasons to look down on othersOwn own
The Palestinians have to start winning battles in the field against Israel to build momentum.
>>2613557And for that to happen there needs to be another war.
>>2610882Impossible plus it would take too long.
The only way to save Palestine is to physically destroy the infrastructure which sustains the Zionist machine. How many of their weapons have single source suppliers? Supplies can be disrupted of key weapons (like air defense missiles) which would cause actual, tangible harm to the Zionist military and degrade it's ability to wage war. It's more than just the weapons themselves, it's the parts that go into them, all of them have dozens of subcontractors and dozens of factories on the contract. A disruption at even one of those factories would starve the Zionist beast of munitions.
>>2613563Doesn't matter if Israel collapses. What matters is what the Palestinians do afterwards. People put all their hopes and dreams on the hypothetical notion that once Israel is destabilized the Palestinians will magically rise up and seize back their lands, and after that happens all 7 million Jews will flee. What happens if the Palestinians simply can't rise up again? What happens if they attempt to rise up and Israelis with guns simply stop them? The Palestinian resistance is the weakest it's ever been in decades. And how much do you believe the Israeli surveillance state has increased after October 7th?
it is becoming clearer and clearer that the israelis are not the owners of the israeli project, and that israel is a project originally designed by non Jews and to which many Jews objected . The Jews are just tools for the colonialists and the imperialists who want to continue the colonialist endeavor that started more than 500 years ago with the colonization of the Americas. The same project is continuing, but instead of using the White Anglo Saxon Puritans, it is using the European Jews . The Palestinians are not the only targeted people . This project has for target the whole of humanity, and after decimating the Indigenous Natives of the Americas, and after hoping to decimate the Palestinians and Arabs it will seek to reach other nations . For this reason the world powers are so intent on destroying the Palestinian Resistance in Palestine at whatever cost . The israelis are tools for this project, and it is not israel nor the israelis that are benefiting from this onslaught . israel will never be peaceful after committing this genocide; nor will the israelis live in peace . They are rather digging their own grave, destroying their purpose and future and these crimes will fire back on those who committed them . The israelis have ruined what remained of their so called reputation as democratic -and the only democracy so to speak in the region . They are being accused of war crimes by the international community and their so to speak political leaders have become totally exposed.
If not the israelis , then who is benefitting from this onslaught? It is the world powers or the colonialists and their genocidal agenda, and not the israelis . Those have become tools of killing and have been stripped off their humanity . They are just killers and assassins and they will not get away with their crimes . The israeli hands are forever stained in crimes that history will never forget or overlook
The israeli captives in Gaza know what the average israeli does not know, and it is that the world powers are ready to sacrifice the israelis and treat the prisoners on par with the Palestinians and do away with them and sacrifice them in the continuous shelling and bombarding on Gaza . israel will never be sovereign, it is a slave to the world powers doing the bidding of its colonialist masters at the detriment of what they believe to be their “country” . israel cannot be preserved by massacres , it is rather being exposed and even threatened with an unknown dark future filled with insecurities . israel is the most insecure place for Jews who are now seeking shelter in Cyprus and other places and are right now booking their new homes in Greek islands.
What transpires is that israel was never meant to be a homeland and a shelter for the so called persecuted Jews . it was meant to be an advanced military base for the colonialist, and is actually acting as one, and meant to sow differences between Jews and Arabs and create religious conflicts in the region, and serve thus the colonialists in their endeavor of tearing apart countries, and destroying societies one after the other . The colonial endeavor has for project to enslave humanity and rip off nations off their natural resources and off their culture and heritage . It is a destructive project by all means whose goal is to impose the colonialist so called” civilization “, and it is using technology as a means to this enslavement whereby technology is infiltrating everywhere and manipulating individuals wherever they are and subjugating societies . This vicious project the colonialists want to carry on at whatever cost, and israel is being an advanced post for this project whereby the Jews are mere tools and not the real owners of the so called project and could be disposed of for the sake of the project . This project is threatened by the Resistance movements who have succeeded in curbing the world powers in many instances : in Lebanon , in Yemen, and Palestine . They are the only hope for a better future…
>>2613583Okay, so how do activists in the West dismantle Israel then?
>>2612804Except my reasons are valid. The whole world can unite in committing genocide but westoid leftists will still come up with reasons to not call a spade a spade.
>>2613583>If not the israelis , then who is benefitting from this onslaughtWhat bullshit is this? Israelis definitely benefit from this. They get all the treats a freeloader could dream of for squatting on land of major geopolitical importance, that too at minimal personal cost while suffering minimal casualties. And the vast majority of countries in the world (even the so-called anti-Imperialist ones) try to benefit from this arrangement. Of course, the west benefits from it a lot, but diminishing how much Israelis themselves, and even non-western countries like India, China, Myanmar etc. benefit from it is plain wrong.
>>2610129>>2609982>>2609966>>2609979Extremely based takes. Westoids can never comprehend thirdie retardation and take basic rationality for granted, which is why they will always be misled.
>>2609966>>2610861Most of the Arab states either covertly or overtly collaborated with Israel and benefited off the Gaza genocide. They deserve what's coming for them atp.
>>2610125>Feudalism was nonexistent in Muslim societiesHow does one come up with such retardation?
>>2613601Feudalism in terms of government via contracts between a vassal and an overlord only exist in Europe. In MENA (much like the Byzantine system ironically) the rulers grant the right for tax collection to some local notable or the other, who will collect taxes for the government in exchange of a fixed salary. This position can be revoked anytime and thus is completely different from how feudalism works in Europe.
This is also why Islamic states relied on slave armies because their system unlike with Europe is not designed to conscript peasant levies but to extract taxes which is then used to pay a standing army
>>2613604This is also why Muslims sultanates just like the Byzantine empire were very coup prone. Unlike in Europe where having more lands make you a more powerful lord in the Islamic world having more land under your name just makes you a glorified tax collector. So the only way for upward mobility for a Muslim noble is to scheme in the Capital, and when you add to this the fact that their armies are usually slaves who have no feudal attachment to one dynasty or the other it result in very frequent palace coups
>>2611253I wouldn't say there's *no* chance. But they've been through a lot of wars.
I've found myself at odds with a lot of anti-Zionists in a weird, perpendicular sort of way. Not that they're "wrong" about Israel engaging in wanton criminality, but they think the Israelis are supposed to do the rational thing and leave the Middle East because everybody hates them and wants them to leave. But I don't think they will because they're crazy. I think they're fucking crazy, extreme nationalists who live in some kind of psychotic Starship Troopers / militaristic Prussian nation. They're just not going to run away. In the 1960s, they were digging mass graves for their own people in Tel Aviv in the days before they'd launch a war on Egypt (which they started btw). Most wars that Israel has fought were ones they initiated. These people blew the fuck out of Beirut in the 1980s with their ground army.
It might be that many of these anti-Zionists have not met any Israelis? I met one and he freaked me out. Or just met many Jews? I've known a few. These are an extremely stubborn people. I don't think defeating Israel is impossible BTW. But part of it might also be short-term historical memory? In recent decades the IDF had grown a lot weaker because it was essentially doing military occupation work where (most of the time) the violence they inflicted was bludgeoning unarmed civilians, not fighting serious wars with enemies who could bite back. So they bumbled into a war with Hezbollah in 2006 and underestimated Hamas. But if these people feel like their backs are up against the wall then they're going to fight. If that's what it comes down to then "the strong will do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" to quote a saying:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos >>2613604>>2613605What about Muslim empires in asia? Were they not feudal? Genuine question.
>>2613583Cracker leftist try to not innocentize and victimize Jews and Muslims all the time challenge:
impossible >>2613685Seriously though, what's the deal with the Israel-Pedo link? Happening way too many times to just be statistical noise
Is that why leftcoms are ardent defenders od Israel after all?? >>2613687They also call you an idpol moralist for rightfully calling out anyone partaking in imperialist plunder.
>>2613689It is how Israelis keep blackmail western on politicians whose support they need to function. Burgerreich's 3-letter orgs allow it so that they can maintain support for Israel. Had any other country tried to bribe and blackmail their politicians, say Russia or China (not that I like them either), there would be a lot of hue and cry about it.
>>2613708
Even Russia and China don't deserve to be coddled. They're not as bad as Burgerreich, but they're not revolutionary either.
Are there any anons on here who are old enough to remember the anti-Apartheid struggle in South Africa?
How does solidarity from western activists in that conflict compare to what we're seeing now with western activist solidarity with Palestine?
>>2613685Kyle in this clip acting like Burgroid citizens are being looted by Israel even though a large chunk of the money that goes to Israel will make its way back to American defence contractors, part of which will then line the pockets of Burgerreich labour aristocrats. There's a reason why the Burger working class refuses to do anything against Israel, even going so far as making exceptions for military cargo in the middle of a protest. They materially benefit from this shit. It's like a free handout to them by the government.
https://www.iladistrict.com/ila-the-i-love-america-union-will-maintain-its-longstanding-pledge-to-handle-military-cargo-during-strike-passenger-cruise-ships-will-also-be-unaffected-by-october-1st-strike-at-a/ >>2613721
Fair enough.
>>2613724>acting like Burgroid citizens are being looted by Israel even though a large chunk of the money that goes to Israel will make its way back to American defence contractors, part of which will then line the pockets of Burgerreich labour aristocratsread what you yourself write, you fuckign zionist rat.
1. 100% of the money is extracted out of the American taxpayer.
2. Part of it, let's say 50% goes to US defence contractors.
3. Part of that 50%, let's say 50% of the 50% = 25% goes back to the American
labour aristocrat only.
4. Conclusion: american proles give 100% of the money, receive nothing, 25% goes to US labour aristo, 25% is distributed in investments of US defence companies, 50% is distinctly for Israel.
Another line of attack, if USA sends the money and USA receives the money, it means a net zero transfer of money. BUT! There is a transfer of weapon from USA to Israel.
So for USA, no net change. For Israel, weapons obtained.
Who paid for that weapon you fucking moron?
I even made a diagram for you zionist cocksucker brain to understand
>>2613736you are leaving out how america as a whole mantain hegemonic power via israel being there and fucking up the middle east, oil n shit
America maintains Israel to keep the Jews and the Arabs fighting. What America fears most in the region is the Jews and the Arabs uniting together in a socialist federation of the middle east, a mid east SSR of sorts that channels the oil wealth into public projects and mutual defense
>>2613744I agree with you on this. On the whole, US is funding Israel for its benefits, not because of ZOG. But there is a kernel of truth in ZOG because of the dialectical relationship: USA props up Israel for its benefit <==> Israel manoeuvres this relationship in a way that USA has to keep doing it. Apologies for insulting you, I just woke up and I have ill manners. Do not blame my parents and teachers, they tried to teach me well, I did not listen.
>>2613736>you fuckign zionist rat. You're Burgerreich Goycattle. You're the worst ind of Zionist.
>Conclusion: american proles give 100% of the money, receive nothing, 25% goes to US labour aristo, 25% is distributed in investments of US defence companies, 50% is distinctly for Israel. Sure, Amerifat. Burgerreich sends money to Israel just because. It totally has nothing to do with keeping Arab comprador regimes in line. Surely it's a historical accident that they all deal in dollars which effectively subsidizes the Burgerreich economy and protects it from inflation when Burgerbankers inevitably crash the economy and the government is forced print a shitload of money.
>>2613764>On the whole, US is funding Israel for its benefits, not because of ZOG.And they do so because they benefit off of it. Even the workers. "But muh wholesome hard-hat and overall wearing proletariat would never support Israel of their own volition!!!" is what cracker leftists tell themselves to feel better about their existence. The best they can do is win more treats for an already complacent biomass of a population.
>>2613736>>2613764>>2613807And if you don't get it already, look at it this way. Israel gets free weapons, American treatlers get a free handout. America kills two birds with one stone by supplying weapons to its atrack dog and doing some succdem hitlerite welfarism both at the same time.
>>2613810
Russians themselves are goycattle, they won't do it.
can this dude just get a tripcode already I'm so tired of seeing his bullshit everywhere
>>2613816
It's a bad idea because it will never happen. Russia is happy selling shit to Israel. It's also funny how China (rightfully) got called out for not using its veto to help Palestine but Russia didn't. So much for muh based anti-Imperialism.
The Palestinian movement in the west was a total failure . BDS is pointless because the US will just Israel an aid package to cover any boycott damages . The left told people to boycott and the. voted in democrats who turned around and gave Israel money over and over again . It’s failed by design
>>2615061>None of the protesters—who are on remand—have been found guilty of anything. They have all suffered ill treatment and unjustified blocks on communication with the outside world, due to the court’s arbitrary and unjust claim that charges against individuals arrested for Palestine Action (PA) protests have a “terrorist connection.Aha, they were quite literally charged under the Terror Act. Absolutely amazing as that places them as prisoners of conscience.
>>2615413Enough with this prisoners of conscience shit, they're prisoners of war.
I wanted to post a clip from Escape from Pretoria with this paraphrased. Couldn't find it so I'll trust you've seen it and imagination suffices. Was the other Hamas threas necessary
>>2613753>Uniting and siding with settlersKys, only acceptable outcome is forcinh the ziorussian saboteurs to swin the mediterranean back to Poland
>>2612701>Israel worker power>>2612701>Israel worker powerThe 48er Palestinians within the colony can't do much
>>2621293If that’s the case, how do you effectively dismantle Israel? Especially now that Iran is destabilizing?
>>2621293Yeah we get it you think prole is a moral/genetic classification bro we get it
>>2621553
Bourgies are class conscious and have more than enough options.
>>2621084She makes a lot of bullshit assumptions here.
>>2603860In Europe at least plenty of action has been taken. Pal Action smashed arms factories, pressure campagns made governments stop the arms trade from their harbors, in the Netherlands a mass surveliance datacentre by Microsoft used to target civilians has been shut down. These are definite wins with real consequences for Palestinians
>>2625221Pebbles thrown into rushing river
>>2625236The global arms trade is extremely specialised and interdependent. Most important harbors in Europe have divested from Israeli arms at this point, there are now equipment parts that Israel can simply not get anymore which means important war machines like F16s can not be build.
Obviously genocide still comences and the US happily carries on supplying weapons but this does show a viable path of resistance and Israel doesn't like that these things are happening
Question: if the Iranian government falls, does this mean the Palestinian struggle is de facto dead?
Marx was right, nationalism has to go
>>2632069But national liberation?
>>2631661It means Palestine gets its support from Qatar and Turkey.
>>2638047they receive money from them, but iran were the only ones giving guns
>>2638057So Palestine is fucked if Iran flalls?
>fight against the most powerful country in the world
>lose
>um AKSTUALLY it's the people fighting who are at fault!
Half the posters in this thread are hasbara.
>>2631661>>2638115Palestine is being Genocided while the Mossad Mullah Cuckatollah is busy slaughtering his own people, due to the fact that the Shia Islamist Theocratic Fascist “Islamic Republic of Iran” is a Crypto-Zionist/U$ Puppet State, 😂🤣🤢🤮! This is one of the many reasons why I cannot wait until the Controlled Opposition Crypto-Zionist/U$ Puppet State Shia Islamist Theocratic Fascist “Islamic Republic of Iran” is overthrown in a Maoist PPW to create a Persian SSR which will include all of the ethnic Persian majority regions of Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan, while granting National Liberation/Self-Determination to the Oppressed Nations of South Azerbaijan, Kurdistan, Arabistan, and Balochistan, in their own Azeri SSR, Kurdish SSR, Arab SFSR, and Baloch SSR, respectively, according to the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist principle of Self-Determination for all Oppressed Nations in their own SSR as articulated in Stalin’s “Marxism and the National Question”
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03a.htm and Lenin’s “The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination”
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htm , along with the National Delimitation Policy of the USSR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_delimitation_in_the_Soviet_Union , as shown in my Map of all the SSRs and SFSRs of the future Global USSR in West Asia, after the inevitable World War III between the U$ and China escalates into a Global Nuclear War that will completely destroy the entire Global Capitalist-Imperialist System, thus allowing for a World Maoist PPW (In both the Periphery/Semi-Periphery, where Maoist PPW is currently viable in the Material Conditions as proven by the ongoing Maoist PPWs in India, the Philippines, Turkey, and Peru, and in the Imperial Core, where Maoist PPW wont be viable in the Material Conditions until World War III breaks out and/or Liberal Bourgeois Democracy is permanently suspended, with these two events being related and probably happening around the same time) to create a Global USSR (all of the SSRs and SFSRs of the future Global USSR are shown in the first Map I posted) that will place the Workers and Oppressed Nations of the World on the Shining Path to Communism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>2638120Why can’t the Palestinians win?
>>2638120They’ve been fighting an 80-year guerrilla war and have lost miserably. With Iran nearly gone, who provides the resistance with weapons?
>>2638120We need to ask ourselves WHY the Palestine movement has been a complete and utter failure.
A reoccurring trope in the movement is that Palestine is “the” issue on which all other issues in the world today spring from. This largely gives the cause a sense of urgency and inflated significance but is also largely based on Islamic epistemology (e.g. “get rid of Zionism and everything will fall into place” identical to how old Muslim thinkers held that simply getting rid of a corrupt sultan would cause everything to fall into place by way of the hand of God). So they will say something like a few higher-ups at Blackrock and Vanguard have Israeli citizenship and this is “proof” Israel controls the U.S. housing market and is this the reason Americans can’t afford housing. Or they’ll say that Lucian Grainge and Clive Davis are Zionists and the reason the music industry is so corrupt is because it’s a de facto wing of Israel. Or they’ll point out that OnlyFans is owned by an Israeli so porn is a “weapon of Zionist control” or something.
The question we should all be asking is: assuming all of this is true, why has the Palestine movement been completely ineffective in going after these other institutions? Why can’t it take down Blackrock and Vanguard? Why can’t it take down UMG? Why can’t it take down the porn industry or the insurance companies? They say police brutality only exists because cops are trained by the IDF, so why can’t the Palestine movement mortally wound the police or ICE?
At least with Occupy we had a sense of building new social formations and community organizations. The Palestine movement has none of this. They would March around the city for a few hours every Saturday where they would be as confrontational as possible and then go home. Utterly worthless.
>>2639727Forgot to mention that the Palestine movement did nothing to rejuvenate the American left. Trying to rebuild the left around this one particular issue failed.
>>2639837Why hasn’t the Palestine movement revived the left at all? Why do we see nothing coming out of this movement?
>>2639535Because all the most powerful forces in this world are against them. Militarily, economically, and culturally. They are outmanned and outgunned, and have been suffocated economically for the past half century. If anything the fact that they've managed to hold on this long despite being starving and destitute while being genocided is impressive.
>>2639587So what's the answer then? For them to give up? Maybe listen to some armchair retard on the internet? How about YOU support them however you can and stop obsessing over fake stratagems?
>>2639647Vietnam was a different scenario. It was a much more clumsy strategy for suffocating a country. The draft being the biggest error - it forced the war into American public consciousness. There was a lot of pressure to end the war to get the soldiers back home. There's nothing like that with Palestine. As much as the genocide might be a hot topic in the US, no American soldiers are dying in Gaza. Most pro-Palestinian advocates are not directly impacted by the genocide, they do it out of empathy rather than self-interest. Americans are supplying the money, weapons, and protection but it's another party (the Israelis) that are getting their hands dirty. And Israelis are brainwashed from birth to consider Palestinians as sub-human, and their ultimate goal is to seize all of Palestine as part of the "Greater Israel" project which will benefit them economically, so they have a very strong incentive to continue the genocide no matter how bloody their hands get.
>>2639727tl;dr victim blaming retard
Spend your armchair analysis on the PERPETRATORS OF THE GENOCIDE, INCLUDING THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY ON THE PLANET! Especially if you are an American whose tax dollars are directly funding genocide. The victims of the genocide are not at fault, and the opponents of the genocide are not at fault. They are doing what they can. You can either help them however you can or get out of the way. This drivel you posted is less than useless.
>>2639750>>2639855Shit like this is why I call you hasbara. Schizophrenic.
>>2603865>charityOP already called it self-righteous symbolic politics, no need to get repetitive
>>2604007>The goal of socialists is national sovereignty? no
>Is that what we’re ultimately fighting for?no
BUT!
<Why people think "national sovereignty" actually means anything I don't know.is still a stupid statement from the other anon. I'll let Lenin/Stalin explain:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/dec/15.htm<in their fear of playing into the hands of the bourgeois nationalism of oppressed nations, people play into the hands not merely of the bourgeois but of the reactionary nationalism of the oppressor nation.(Also pic related.)
>>2639727Trvke
>>2639895>at fault>victim blaming Proving his point lol. This is liberal moralism. Socialism is the issue, not any national liberation struggle. 70 years and we're not a single step closer to a Palestinian state. Even less is it clear that a Palestinian state would bring us a single step closer to socialism.
Lenin On Zionism:
<[…] this Zionist idea is absolutely false and essentially reactionary.https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1903/oct/22a.htmAny questions?
>>2639895>Because all the most powerful forces in this world are against them. Militarily, economically, and culturally. They are outmanned and outgunned, and have been suffocated economically for the past half century.This is precisely why guerrilla warfare is no longer a viable strategy.
>>2639895>Spend your armchair analysis on the PERPETRATORS OF THE GENOCIDE, INCLUDING THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY ON THE PLANET! Especially if you are an American whose tax dollars are directly funding genocide. This doesn't address their point at all. "Yeah well why aren't YOU doing anything???" – that's not a logical response. That Anon is saying the Palestine Movement likes to present itself as being the cure-all for all the ailments of society, that Zionism is the reason the contradictions of capitalism exist, and that freeing Palestine would initially end Blackrock or whatever. Yet the Palestine Movement hasn't done shit to combat these other issues. Why? That's what we should be asking. WHY is it such a failure?
>>2639895>Most pro-Palestinian advocates are not directly impacted by the genocide, they do it out of empathy rather than self-interest. And this reason alone doesn't explain why the movement failed as hard as it did?
>>2640196He didn't flip he just wants the protestors to not say the quiet part out loud about supporting Islamism. Presumably he wants to give off secular vibes
>>2640242He is a secular. A conservative Muslim politician won't be talking about their weed consumption experience, won't support trans rights, won't work with all those left wing jews in DSA, for the same reason why a conservative Christian politician won't do allat. I suspect this "turnaround" has more to do with him trying to focus with NY first rather than risking his tenure being dragged to every single cause celebre of the Left and not accomplishing anything real
>>2640196Palestine protesters should protest outside NYC city hall or Mamdani's house. Hold him accountable.
>>2640162He says the Jews don't constitute a nation because they don't have a territory and a common language, but an image popped into my mind that the Zionists also read that and went "damn, Lenin's right, we should really work on that" and then went and seized territory by force and created Hebrew language schools to prove him wrong. Well, what this tells me is that nations are manufactured entities.
>>2639727>>2640172>>2639750I think people have to accept that protesters in London or New York City were never going to liberate Palestine. That's just not how that works. It's not the primary battlefield, which is over land in a particular place that's fought over by people with guns, and it seems to me what is decisive is how that plays out on the ground. The protesters can play a role though but it's going to be at most a secondary one.
>>2639750Well, I think if the goal of anyone is to exploit or instrumentalize the Palestinian cause as like a tool to "revive the left" then their priorities are completely of whack or backwards or something. Like, are there leftists who go (?), aww fugg nobody likes us, how do we revive our movement, ah I know, Palestine! Oh fugg that didn't work. Hrmm.
Wait, what??? Like what are we even doing here.
>>2640152What is the point of socialism? It's a serious question but people around here treat it like it's just about economic planning and nationalized industries and that's it. But the point of doing that in the first place is to eliminate the economic domination of people by other people. These socialists who oppose what Israel is doing to Palestinians are doing so because Israel is dominating and oppressing these people, and those other people resist that because they don't want to be treated that way. Maybe this is just my under-theorized common sense version of socialism talking, but I foremost have long seen it as being about ending exploitation and domination and oppression.
>>2640303>eliminate the economic domination of people by other peopleSure but what's the point of doing that? Are we supposed to do it for moral reasons?
>>2603860so go do some direct action then
>>2639750Because the average American has zero stake in Israel-Palestine.
>>2640317I'm not sure. Maybe morality. Maybe personal experience. I like the more practical version that goes, it just feels bad to go through life being abused and exploited and it's bad that this happens to other people too and it shouldn't happen anywhere, and this goes on a lot in the world which gets pretty barbaric. Like at the end of the day socialism is about human freedom and emancipation. What do you think?
Anyways, here's this:
>How can you help people like the Palestinians, who suffer daily, whose lives are totally dominated by Israeli occupation, who live under an apartheid regime? Even Palestinians inside Israel have no real chance of equality under Jewish supremacy. They also live in fear as a result of the genocide and what Israel might do next — inside Israel and in the West Bank.
>If you’re organizing in the United States, the question is: What are you going to do to improve that situation? Too much energy here goes into debating one state or two states or engaging in theoretical fights around Palestinian resistance tactics. And frankly, I don’t see that as a useful debate here if your main goal is changing policy on the ground for people who are suffering today. That’s what matters most.
>Among Palestinians, there’s legitimate contestation about favored outcomes and what liberation means. For a solidarity movement, I don’t see why it should enter that terrain of debate. Uphold one thing: unconditional support for the Palestinian right of self-determination. That’s the fundamental right Israel has violated. Fighting for that right by cutting off US military aid would be a huge contribution to Palestinian welfare.
>There are always going to be ideological discussions on the Left. But if those become disablers that fragment the movement and make you less effective at improving conditions on the ground, then I don’t know what those discussions are for. Advocacy in the real world is about power — how you challenge the workings of power, how you build capacity, how you practice leverage. It’s the difficult work of winning over people to a just cause.
>And while students on US campuses can shape the conversation, they don’t have a lot of leverage to change policy. Many young people support Palestine because it’s a moral cause — that’s good. But if you’re going to build a mass movement among the broader working class, you also need to look for ways to help people see how it is in their interest to stop the genocide and stop funding Israel. This may not be as intuitive as in a union organizing campaign fighting for better wages and working conditions, but you can demand that funds going to Israel go to public services in the United States. Money for schools and health care in the US and Gaza — not bombs. Make those links: show how American foreign policy serves the elite and the military and doesn’t serve the majority here or abroad. Without that, Palestine remains only a moral cause, and moral-cause organizing is hard to scale up as the links to material interests are hard to see.https://jacobin.com/2025/10/palestine-gaza-solidarity-us-strategy >>2640351Where I see a problem is when these issues are being framed as primary ones. If you have even a pretty basic understanding of capitalism you know that it's inevitably going to produce things like war, genocide, economic exploitation and imperialism. So pushing for the end of this or that specific problem within the framework of the currently existing order of capitalist nation states is automatically reformist and liberal. If you understand what capitalism is and you understand the stakes then when you look at issues like Gaza your thought should always be how do I use this to put class struggle on the agenda and to organize workers for the overthrow of capitalism. Your approach should be instrumental as trotanon put it, not symbolic or moral. Otherwise what you get at absolute best will be a repeat of what happened with the global movement to end South African apartheid. There was a good amount of sometimes vague, sometimes more principled "radicalism" mixed into that too and it "succeeded". And what did that get South Africans, let alone the global proletariat? This shit just aims so low and the emotionalism and moralism is a part of why it does. To construct a new world free of exploitation of man by man we need to think bigger than some kind of Wilsonian accord between nations that can't exist before capitalism is destroyed anyway.
>>2639727>Why can’t it take down Blackrock and Vanguard? Why can’t it take down UMG? Why can’t it take down the porn industry or the insurance companies? They say police brutality only exists because cops are trained by the IDF, so why can’t the Palestine movement mortally wound the police or ICE?Because you need to take political power to do all of these things. Hold the bankers and pornographers accountable. The left in America has no ability to take power. Mamdani has even sold out his second week in office.
>>2640370I think the Palestine issue is coming to an end. Iran is about to collapse, meaning the Palestinian resistance has no one to send it weapons anymore. Syria has collapsed and the new leader is a Zio. Lebanon may very well normalize relations with Israel in the next year. The Houthis can't fire at Israel without Iran's backing, plus Yemen in general is basically fucked from their own civil war.
So who else supports Palestine? Algeria, which is also on the brink of collapse and can't provide much material support? Pakistan, which has nukes but is far more likely to use them against India than Israel? Qatar and Turkey? Probably the most likely but neither will supply weapons.
>>2640196>When did Zohran flip?When everyone said he was, right along the time he started getting mainstream Democrat endorsements.
ALAS at that time people were saying his backtracking on Zionism and coddling with monsters was merely a ploy. A trick to fit in among them and carry out a secret, still amicable agenda… typical entryist stuff.
>>2640393I knew he was fake the moment Liz Warren endorsed him.
>>2640387>I think the Palestine issue is coming to an end. What comes after it?
>>2640400The absolute worst case scenario is that Israel annexes both Area C of the West Bank and most of Gaza, with Areas A and B being taken by Jordan and the rest of Gaza being taken by Egypt. The Palestinians in Gaza will most likely be mass-deported to whichever countries agree to take them. The ones in the West Bank get Jordanian citizenship most likely.
Best case scenario is that the Palestinian working-class teams up with the Israeli working-class and they overthrow their ruling classes together and learn to coexist.
>>2640370>>2640387See vidrel:
>>2621084Palestine has become a symbolic crusade. Because comrades can't get their demands won when it comes to other issues (healthcare, housing, employment, the need for a promising future) they latch on to Palestine and use it as a way to convey their overall anger towards the system.
This also explains what Trotanon says here:
>>2639727 . All other issues are vaguely linked to Palestine for this very reason. "If Israel can be destroyed we'll all finally get housing and healthcare!"
Donate to European Legal Support Centre an organization which engages in strategic litigation to protect westerners in EU protesting againts Israel
>but how does that help Palestinians
It doesn't but it's worth more than donating to buy them food which will be blocked and consumed by IDF. Besides that in 3 months an European Citizen Initiative about ending EU-Israel trade will open
>>2603860>What we did was bad!<No further elaboration of what could have been done differently, with which organisations and manpower, how we can prepare our cadre better with which training, and how to act in further stagesI will not tell you to kill yourself, because you're just on this incomplete level of actually understanding Communist strategy and tactics. I will however tell you to stop acting high and mighty, stop just denouncing things you dislike without offering alternatives, and start researching and conversing with others on analyzing:
>Forces available to the movement atm>Educational level of such forces>Organisational levels of such forces>The ways in which entities in your country are actually materially and diplomatically helping Israel, on a granular level. So not "government supports them", but "this xyz factory makes parts for weapons and its shipped through this and that port".>The consciousness and battle-readiness of the non-cadre population and their organisations>State repression willingness and capacityAnd then
>What actions did the people practically do?>What were the aims, and did those aims if realized contribute meaningfully?>What caused the actions to not succeed? Did it not receive wider support? Could it be ignored? What factors, concretely, made the actions unsuccessful>What actions did succeed and to what degree?>What are, based on the material aid of your area to Israel, the hypothetical options to block and weaken those?>Do you have cadre capable of doing such things?>Do you have organizations capable of doing such things?>Is the populace at a point of consciousness where they would join and support such actions on a mass scale?Then based on such an analysis, you can actually formulate a strategy on what you can do to create the subjective conditions within your reach to prepare for the correct actions you can achieve with the forces and populace you actually have around you.
>>2640841Oh yeah and to get ahead of you replying:
While there is plenty to improve and learn, I do think the boycot and campus stuff was the most that leftist activists could have achieved.
>The populace was still vehemently pro-Israel and anti-Palestine when the October 7th attack happened>The left is not organized, not trained practically, not trained ideologically, lacks any form of discipline, lacks structures to make any sort of large scale decisions in terms of strategy>The left is filled with left-communist/ultra tendencies of wanting to be "the most correct" and "the most left"And here are the things that happened and could have happened:
>Decentralized boycott movement: Required little organizational power or cadre, put pressure on Israel, allowed people to join in meaningful action that had more of an impact on a large scale than joining some sad communist protest>Campus encampments: Waaaaay ahead of where the masses actually were at the start, causing a higher degree of dissonance with their target support base than even the same types of encampments for climate change. Aimed to cut cultural and academic ties with Israel. Surprisingly, some did succeed.>General protests: Aimed at changing public opinion and forcing the ruling class to respond. Was the right move for a population that slowly started to become more and more anti-Israel and anti-genocide. Succeeded in forcing several states to act, exposing them to the population at large successfully. Think of, for example, Palestine action.>Blocking shipments: Aimed at depriving Israel of ammunition. Needs highly politicized highly militant unions in ports. Enacted successfully in some countries like Greece and Belgium to a limited degree. Wider support and militancy of unions was lacking, which is coupled to the low degree of support for Palestine in the general population.>Sabotaging weapons factories: Aimed at sabotaging the war machine. Requires high levels of politicised and militant unions. These simply do not exist. Population does not currently support industrial sabotage as a tactic. If done by a small group of adventurists, damage would be minimal and easily fixed, would cost cadre, would just give the bourgeoisie easy PR opportunities to spin a narrative against pro-Palestine protestors. Think of the response to the just stop oil idiots destroying random paintings, but imagine it 1000 times worse.>Volunteer military intervention aka international brigades: Really now? We lack bases of operation, we lack training, we lack people capable to doing so, we lack the material resources to do so, the population in western countries would not support such things and thus it would not drive either further communist organising or support for palestine, and doing this would just end up grinding cadre into mush under Israeli tanktreads, very limited cadre which could instead be positioned into one of the above tactics with greater returns on cadre invested. Going to Kurdistan was already adventurist enough, having idiotic crustpunks waste food and ammo they needed, but at least Kurdistan enjoyed global sympathy and their meaningless death at least could inspire some support for them. Of course, just as a tactic, not as a statement about Kurdistan as a political project.You cannot do a serious analysis without outlining this all. After this, we need to assess, what is the conciousness and militancy of the general population now? What do we expect to develop in terms of "happenings" in the coming 5-10 years? If we disregard the state of our cadre, what types of responses would be workable? Following from that, what do we need to train ourselves in? What do we need to change about our organisations? What legwork can be enact in non-communist organisations such as unions to give ourselves a better hand the next time?
>>2640880>>2640841In the end a communist party must do the following core tasks:
>Organize and train communists into a party fighting force>Meet their local population where they are at, and help them take the steps through both ideological education as well as organisational growth. This to the end of optimizing the subjective conditions as much as possible, to give ourselves a better hand.>To block and hinder the damage our own bourgeoisie is doing to other workers of the world, to the best of our ability.As long as we do this, we have done our task. We cannot stop the genocide of the Palestinians now, just as the USSR was not able to stop the American and European empires, and the Nazis, from their genocides and imperialists wars. What we can do is give it our all to slowly chip away at the powerbase of the capitalists globally, to use every contradiction to our best advantage, and to hopefully win this war or attrition.
The Soviet Union has fallen, millions upon millions will burn, but as long as there are still proletarians to burn, there will still be light against the blackest reaction.
>>2639727Since when are anti-genocide protesters responsible for housing and healthcare?
>>2603860I know a corporate who laughs at Palestinians because they are completely clueless about where to attack. This guy builds low level components for drone devices with Muslim labor. He laughs about nobody knowing that he's doing that. It's a plastic factory in Australia and he is laughing about the protest in the CBD. The businesses really do have all of us in a sling while they're pulling the strings.
>>2640905When they insist “IT’S ALL CONNECTED” and make vague connections between big Jewish capitalists and Israel, as if Jewish capitalists exploit people out of belief in “Zionism” or sone grand “Zionist conspiracy”. Capitalism isn’t the behaviour of capitalists and whether or not big capitalists who happen to be Jewish are “Zionists” is completely irrelevant.
>>2641050I think it’s worthy to have a discussion on how and why Palestine became the defining issue for the western left (especially the American left) when very few Americans are directly affected by it. Comrades will sacrifice everything for “Palestine” regardless if their efforts help the Palestinian people in any real, material way. Like they’ll willingly get fired from their jobs or be expelled from university for making pro-Palestine social media posts but they don’t care because solidarity is more important. They wouldn’t risk their livelihoods for any other issue.
>>2641107Sunk-cost solidarity. The idea is, the more sacrifices you make for "the cause" the more determined you are to win, because you don't want all of the sacrifices you've made to have been in vain. Palestinians understand western psychology quite well and they know the more they can get western activists to sacrifice for them the more those activists will keep prioritizing Palestine because they don't want it to have been "all for nothing".
Palestine is done for.
The generous accomodation of islamism in leftism will backfire spectacularly. Arrogant westoids are in for a bitter surprise.
>>2641871Pretty much. Once Iran falls they will be wiped clean.
>>2641871I don't see any way they can win. With Iran about to fall, their only allies are countries that are way too weak to provide them with any material support. Alas, they will be another lost cause.
20 years from now the white liberals in the NY Times will romanticize Hamas, or lament "what could have been."
>>2641873It's a continuation of the nationalism that "leftist" movements had in the 20th century.
>>2641910Yes, meaning it's long outdated by now. Petty nationalism, whether it's pan-Arabism, pan-Islamism, or Zionism, aren't going to defeat anything. An international working-class movement will.
>>2641913>international working class movementkeep dreaming. The working class will never have international consciousness, neither the peasant class nor the petite-bourgeoisie. Since the time of Lenin, only the bourgeoisie and the intellectual class have demonstrated to possess international consciousness.
No wonder the working class keeps getting fucked: an international bourgeoisie v/s an atomised proletariat. The atomised proletariat cannot even be described as 'national', as in mamy places they restrict their conscioussness to specfic intra-national region, linguistic group or religious group.
I'm done feeling sorry for the proles in the middle east who place islam above everything. If after centuries of turmoil, they still cannot open their eyes, well they can eat shit.
Considering all the concessions that leftists have done for islamists, what concession has the islamist ever done for the leftist? Zilch. Nothing.
There can be no alliance with medieval animals.
>>2641909Not only are their allies weak, they are also surrounded by muslim countries that either dont care or aid israel for their own self interest: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, Egypt.
Bleak doesnt even begin to describe it.
>>2641934You should actually put a gun in your mouth.
>>2642170Name me one (1) concession islamists have done for leftists.
>>2641934Almost as if the party is necessary
>>2607818Not beating the Treatlerite accusations
Self-immolation will never change as many minds as Senate-building-immolation
Palestine isn’t dead. It needs a different strategy. Starve the Zios and they will flee. Simple as.
>>2641934>keep dreaming. The working class will never have international consciousnessIf nationalists like you keep breathing, yeah I bet.
>>2641934Being a baseless contrarian to multipolaroids is bad too bruh. Your post is filled with moralism.
>>2642670The whole purpose of BDS was to “starve the Zios so they collapse” and it failed. Your average Israeli isn’t losing sleep over Starbucks losing a few profits.
>>2642670What does a “victory” for Palestine look like to you?
It's pretty much over now.
Americans are focusing on the white girl that got shot
>>2642690>The whole purpose of BDS was to “starve the Zios so they collapse”Wrong.
>and it failedIt never even really started.
>Starbucks losing a few profitsWhere is Starbucks listed on BDS?
>>2644163Starbucks is one of the biggest BDS targets.
Also, what’s the purpose of BDS then? Overton window?
TBH I think a lot of people believed the Palestinian resistance had a legit chance of winning. I remember how everyone on here was saying “Palestine will be liberated by Christmas” unironically when October 7th was taking place. People were reluctant to call this war a genocide because they believed Hamas would be victorious.
>>2646332Careful anon. There are still retards here who maintain that Hamas won and Israel lost. You will get called Moshe if you continue talking like this.
That's everything isn't it?
It's all PR and you can't outspend the burgeoisie. Like, pro-Palestine people aren't being honest either. Not in a bad way, I just think it's self defeating to promote anti-zionism and justice for Palestinians while divorcing it from the material consequences of what would happen.
Which is to say, the US/NATO losing their control over "Israel" and over MENA and probably collapsing along the petrodollar as regional interests become more prevalent. Or the region needing a forever GWoT to keep the compradors in place. OR whatever, really. It would had a very big material impact in the region and in US/NATO. A movement with those goals is already at odds with every single mainstream party not currently chanting "death to America", if those exist in the west.
Whatever the specifics, losing their unsinkable carrier would be a tremendous material blow for the US/NATO.
My point is, the Palestinian advocates and even the resistance mostly refuses to acknowledge the link between Palestinian struggle and anti US imperialism. THAT is the height of the enemy, that is their actual power. But activists for some reason think that they can battle it out through PR alone, build nothing material and then act surprised when bottom falls out at the whims of the bourgeois media apparatus.
I'm sorry to say, but it will keep happening, and the only thing being achieved in the west is normalizing whatever the Zionist policy is, even now. Because the pro-Palestine movement directs people to play "fantasy-football" within the culture war rather than politically organize. It is not an apolitical, or big-tent issue, it's not a matter of morals. That is the lie from above. As long as that's the line, then it'll continue being a PR thing fought on the culture war, gatekept by mainstream media.
>>2652342 (me)
Like what do these people expect of the places which reap all the benefits but suffer none of the colonial tensions? Do Palestinian advocates really think that moral outrage is just enough to cause the world hegemon and it's close allies to commit suicide by abandoning MENA?
You have to be kidding me. There is NOTHING an apolitical pro-Palestine movement can offer that liberal Zionism can't do better (and with the full support of capital).
>>2640149people on here still struggle to understand this because they come to Marx before getting rid of their humanist liberal brainworms which causes them to think internationalism is in opposition to "nationalism" when really it's in opposition to imperialism, while "nationalism" is divided into the chauvinist nationalism of the imperialist nations versus the liberatory nationalism of the colonized nations. To put it in lib terms: some forms of nationalism "punch down", and others "punch up"
>>2641733I've noticed this a lot too.
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