The 2010s marked the effective end of most remaining communist insurgencies. Although many had been in decline for years, it was during that decade that they finally collapsed. The Naxal movement, communist insurgencies in Africa and Southeast Asia, and the last remnants of the IRA either fizzled out or ended with arrests after failed attacks and raids. In 2023, the Zapatistas dissolved their Autonomous Municipalities. The conflicts that leftist magazines and academics once wrote papers about and sometimes even traveled to for the occasional photoshoot are now over, so what is to done?
The Jungle deviation is finally over
>inb4 S, bloodgasm and MaoAnon bitching
They've been saying the NPA in the Philippines are about to give up and put down their arms for decades lmao. Same goes for the Naxalites and other insurgent groups.
>>2614193What do you propose communists should do in these developing countries? Wait half a century until "multipolarity" hopefully builds up the local proletariat enough so they outnumber the subsistence farmers?
>>2614215can’t speak for the Philippines, but as a south asian I can say while the Naxalites are not fully dead, the chances are not looking good for them. They once had thousands of armed cadres across central India, which is no longer the case. Now they are confined to very isolated areas where they are holding out, and they are not fighting the government the way they used to. I would assume the Filipino groups are very similar, essentially in pure survival mode
>>2614215I propose they give up, yes. A communist cannot be a sentimental idiot.
>>2614215They are successful, because it's a protracted peoples war.
>>2614315I would suppose that the mobile phone ruined any chance of their survival.
>>2614193What's the future of conflict going to be?
>>2614215>They've been saying the NPA in the Philippines are about to give up and put down their arms for decades lmao. Same goes for the Naxalites and other insurgent groups.The thing about the Zapatistas is also just false. They restructured their organization to adapt to changing times. They didn't "dissolve."
>>2614485While they didn't dissolve, they're struggling under the narco conflict. They're still around sure, but they're not in a great position either, Chiapas is still dirt poor, young people in the EZLN are losing interest in maintaining it and move to the city instead. I mean I hope they'll maintain, but I imagine it's going to get tougher and tougher to do that. Basically they're also just in survival mode
>adventurism and activism failed for the 1085765th time?
Damn if only Marx considered this and opposed both
>>2614609Engels picked up a gun in 1848 and fought under August Willich, but Marx was too busy soaking his rash in saltwater and ruthlessly criticizing all the exists.
>>2614609It worked in China though.
>>2614855>popular urban social revolution is the same as sitting in your own filth in the middle of nowhere and terrorising workers once a decade as praxisEngels shared the same opinion as Marx
>>2614889The long march failed.
>>2614899>The long march failed.What? Mao reunified China during the civil war? What other method do you propose?
>>2614944It was Japanese who destroyed the nationalists and later the Soviets giving Mao support that won him the civil war.
>>2614970Had he not done the long march, he'd have been killed by the nationalists, the long march allowed him to stall until he had a better opportunity to take over.
but frankly I don't think any of the current leftists insurgencies are any close to that, they have no international ally helping them. their failures are just the consequence of the fall of the USSR
>>2614481Actually, it was the BJP government fixing railway lines and posting more cops, that's basically it.
>>2614889>>2614985The Chinese Civil War was unlike almost any other conflict. Its causes and dynamics were so unusually distinct that it’s difficult to analyze it using the same frameworks applied to other wars. The Nationalists weakness against both Japan and the Communists largely originated in how Chiang Kai-shek conducted the Northern Expedition. He aimed to complete it as quickly as possible, and while he succeeded, that pace resulted in a fragile political and military foundation.
He didn’t merely grant amnesty to many warlords, he effectively allowed them to retain their existing power bases as long as they wore KMT uniforms. At the same time, he permitted triads and organized crime to continue operating in major cities. On the surface, the Nationalist government appeared strong, but in reality it was the very definition of a structure built on clay feet.
This isn’t just my opinion, it was also the view of American generals assigned to assist the KMT during the war against Japan. And like
>>2614985 pointed out, regardless of how much some Western Maoists may claim otherwise, Mao would not have won the war without Soviet aid, particularly the Soviet handover of Manchuria.
>>2615010Chiang's reunification was interesting, he got jailed by Zhang Xueling
>>2614492>young people in the EZLN are losing interest in maintaining it and move to the city insteadBelieving PRI propaganda, sad!
>>2615105To be fair, Lenin only received 3 - 5% of the vote before a crisis
>>2615097From what I remember it was the zapatistas themselves that are concerned with that, I saw them talk about it in a documentary. But I might misremember and be repeating PRI propaganda without knowing, my apologies if that is the case
>>2614985This, we don't have a large Communist power backing our comrades in these conflicts. Cuba is under siege along with Venezuela, Nicaragua is hanging out, the DPRK is still somewhat isolated (changing), Laos is there, Vietnam and China have largely pivoted away from supporting Communists not in power.
>>2615152Will the DPRK start going global after Kim?
>>2615161Moreover, yes. The 90-00's are over and that dreadful storm was weathered by the DPRK, arguably better than any other socialist project, in the emerging multipolar world the DPRK will, and has already proves to, harness newly available international relations towards the goal of socialist construction.
>>2615172 (me)
S/moreover/moreso
>>2615172>DPRK will harness newly available international relations towards the goal of socialist construction.Can't wait to invest into the proletarian DPRK stock exchange
>>2615246What the fuck are you even on about?
>>2614138From what I understand of the NPA, yes they're basically militarily useless and their PPW has been going on over twice as long as Mao's, but they do have activity in the cities. They see it as keeping their fighting capacity alive and not abandoning the peasantry that's constantly fucked over by capital. I see it as a conveyor belt of competent, educated, young cadre to their graves. It's probably only a burden to defend a historically declining and non-protagonist class like the peasantry, and it's not necessary to keep active combat going in order to retain the ability to wage war. That can be re-started at any time, just like they started it in the first place. Sison also wanted to protect the mineral wealth of the ph, probably so it could have something to exploit for quick development in the case it ever goes socialist. This is ridiculous considering their losing position. They should support proletarianization and honestly work more with their US diaspora since it's the US drone striking them and providing the PNP and soldiers intelligence. This is one place where a cross-border struggle could make a huge difference. The Philippines is a semi-colony of the US with a relatively strong communist movement. They should focus on doing more than just having some english language magazines, but actually setting up organization here in the US. That would help them funnel funds and better agitate for an end to US military presence and political and economic meddling.
>>2615311>They should focus on doing more than just having some english language magazines, but actually setting up organization here in the US. That would help them funnel funds and better agitate for an end to US military presence and political and economic meddling.Philippines is too important to the US for agitation to work. If Philippine communists ever gained even a modicum of traction in the US they would be designated a terrorist organization, people arrested and funds cut off. They would have a better chance of growing by linking up with local Islamic groups while muscling into the drug and smuggling trade.
>>2615165Me and the boys
>>2615172When do you think the DPRK will be able to conquer South Korea? Or is that never going t happen?
>>2614138Lol the bourgeois forces always say the Naxals and the NPA are losing and going to disarm but it never happens. The Naxals did actually face a lot of struggle in 2025 but Operation Kagar would not be a thing if they were not threatening the fascist Indian state.
>>2615311Btw the CPP have a really strong global presence and do the thing you said about cross border stuff. They will work with a (tbh far too) broad range of orgs and have front groups in every English language country, for example AIF in UKKK and there's a similar one in Ireland. There is literally an Ang Bayan discord server. Your comment is based off of incorrect facts and you should acknowledge them and rectify your position. Also your position on peasantry is wrong but I can't be bothered to get into that.
>>2615175A big part of Maoism is the belief that peasants are the primary revolutionary subject.
>>2615511and the national bourgeoisie, but the peasantry doesnt even exist anymore so i guess that explains the trajectory of china
I think many leftists need to accept that the successful anti-colonial movement (the the Vietnamese, Koreans, Angolans, etc.) were essentially popular nationalist movements in red. The same was true for the Yugoslav partisans. The Magyar communists fought against Trianon. That was the most important thing for them, the masses have never fought for communism.
I think a lot of people forget or don't realize that the extant and past rural insurgencies didn't simply draw from the classical image of a petty landholding ""peasant"", their advanced sections drew from complete wagies and those who had to supplement what they farmed out of decaying communal or individual plots with wage labor.
>>2615134What mattered was the 3–5% they had, ex-Tsarist soldiers and officers gained during extreme turmoil, Gold from the Kaiser also helped in setting up the operation
>>2615689What did Lenin think about the Kaiser?
>>2615599>dood they are literally landowners but they supplement their earnings with a side gig so theyre le proletarianlols the shit i have to read
>>2615693I don’t have any exact quotes, but he probably didn’t think too highly of the German Empire. That said, the decision to send him to Russia with the gold wasn’t from the Kaiser, it came from Hindenburg and Ludendorff. They sent Lenin to cause civil unrest and destabilize Russia, hoping to take it out of the war. They obviously never expected the Soviet state to take off like it did. Ironically, these same two men would also help unintentionally pave the way for the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany, something they also likely never saw coming either.
>>2615741They undid their own empire.
>>2615330>When do you think the DPRK will be able to conquer South Korea? Or is that never going t happen?Probably won't happen unless forced from the other side. DPRK have a decent position and such a development would cause real problems for them.
>>2615511Nonsense. READ REPORT ON THE PEASANT UPRISING IN HUNAN!!!!!
>>2615795Really? Why'd it suck?
>>2615745The point is that the October Revolution, which many on the left (myself included at one point) once saw as an inevitable and almost sacred event, came about largely because of a handful of men. There was no real master plan behind it either. Of course, there were larger material factors that made revolution in Russia more likely than in other regions, and Russia would have still imploded and would never become a liberal democracy, but without Lenin and German aid, the Whites would have gained the upper hand. Either Kornilov or someone like him would have taken power, leading to probably a proto-fascist Military dictatorship.
>>2616129What does that mean?
>>2616159Overall, I see history as shaped both by broader material forces and by the roles that "great men "find themselves in. If history had been nudged just a few different ways, Hitler could easily have ended up a Bavarian socialist, and Stalin a Georgian nationalist. I’d also argue that many prominent anti-Communists from Eastern Europe, the 'I didn’t kill men, I killed Communists' types, were never anti-Communist for ideological reasons. They were simply unlucky enough to live in areas looted by unsupervised Red Army brigades. If a few events had been different, those same men would have been the strongest supporters of the system, probably never understanding communism beyond the idea of 'strong state that gets things done."
>>2617635why would you cooperate with renegades?
>>2617652To seize power, because if you don't, someone more ruthless and pragmatic will.
>>2615105love getting my serious political commentary from a guy who has a dancing jim crow santa in the background and half the screen taken up by chatspam
>>2617762
You know when I first started posting here, I used to think these posts were a joke of sorts, giving their… special formatting and unique use of languge.
But now I see clearly. The dust is removed from my eyes, and on examination I fear you are almost certainly 100% correct. I personally might prefer a different division of SSRs but the whole of it seems to be a blazing nuclear truth…
>>2617930Yeah King Lear rules. He's probably my favorite
>>2617933King Lear is a racist.
>>2617930He's clearly doing a bit, semi-ironic and semi-serious
>>2617971The fact he lumped all of Latin America, Sub-saharan Africa, the Arab-speaking world and Southeast Asia into huge blocks without any understanding of the complex ethnic groups that live there.
>>2617980oh no. what i mean is that King Lear unironically believes in race science and a blood right to land. he occasionally brings it up in his ramblings.
>>2615097Literally last month a ship with 28 teenagers from Chiapas who went out of the state to be underpaid farmhands were discovered in the sea next to Sonora, thankfully alive.
https://www.milenio.com/videos/estados/armada-mexico-salva-28-jovenes-naufragando-paz-bcsSearch Chispas news and just yesterday there was another clash between some narco and some police
And the indigenous are still getting expelled from their towns
https://youtu.be/gVAXjjRUBMA?si=iPVcsaYb8CN4vuDk200 people from a indigenous town expelled after a gang takes over. If they don't pay they are tortured or taken as Cannon fodder.
>It's not Pri propaganda it's morena propagandaMéxico is a shithole, but a progressive governed shithole
>>2615344Sure they "work with orgs" but it's every maoist sect with 5 people and all they do is banner holding. A discord server for a magazine is not far from just having a magazine… they should do more to organize the diaspora. What incorrect facts do I have though? I'll rectify if your critique can be specific.
>>2618017
We should grant Udmurt, Chuvash, Mordvin, Mari and Komi populations independence
>>2618017
All Western leftist are retarded morons, regardless of whether they are white, black or asian, they will always remain morons.
>>2618226>>2618161But, oh well, the Finno-Urgic minorities are getting poached by Putinist™ Imperialism
>>2617999
>I am not as knowledgeable of the Ethno-Linguistic demographics of that region as I am of the rest of the World
In that case you probably should've just left that part blank.
>>2617997It's going to be difficult to get through to guys like him, regardless of how objectively the conflicts are going or whether you support them or not. There's an entire ecosystem that views these conflicts like a platonic ideal. It's the same with Palestine, every thread some Idiot would claim how Israel would be finished in a week and if you ever doubted that delusion, you'd be called an Israeli agent.
>>2614138I think that world war 3 is going to shake things up a lot TBH. Historically, returning soldiers with no opportunities at home has been a recipe for civil unrest.
>>2620197That demographic existsm, the veterans of GWOT, and various volunteers from the Syrian/Iraqi civil wars and the Russia/Ukraine conflict. You are correct that returning soldiers can cause civil unrest, but only when given the authority to train new recruits and form networks. For example only about 700 Algerians volunteered to fight in Afghanistan. There they learned how insurgency works, why they should use AK-47s instead of old bolt-action rifles and the usefulness of IEDs. When they returned home, as things were falling apart in their own country, they joined various Islamist parties (who hailed them as heroes) and shared what they had learned with others. They also received support from jihadist networks, which helped them secure funding. This is how they were able to create a force that could challenge the state.
>>2615010>how Chiang Kai-shek conducted the Northern ExpeditionThat is all true, but I'm not sure if there was any solution to unifying China earlier without coopting the warlords. I don't think Chiang had the manpower to take over China with his army. Had Chiang not unified China, the situation would have been roughly the same, with a divided China that Japan could attempt to divide and conquer, and a divided country which the communists could take advantage of to recoup their losses while playing warlords off against each other. In the event, the Communists survived the Long March because they friendly or neutral warlords let them pass through.
>>2615693Anyone with an education knew the Kaiser was an idiot, even plenty on the right. Unless you mean what Lenin thought of the German Empire, which he thought like most leftists would be the nucleus of the the real communist revolution because it had one of the most developed working class movements in the world at the time. He also admired aspects of the mobilization of the German economy in WWI for total war and thought that the increasingly planned nature of the German war economy might serve as a potential model for the Soviet state.
>>2620257>the situation would have been roughly the sameIt would have been radically different. As ineffective as Chiang's China was, the very idea of a united China was a spectre for Japanese nationalists. Even in its worst performance, given enough time it would become a regional power capable of challenging Japan. A divided, warlord continued China was probably the best outcome for Japan, they could easily play clique against each other(they did IRL), extract resources and labor through unequal treaties with the warlords and avoid a strong rival. Fact is, without direct Soviet aid, neither the Nationalists nor the Communists had any real chance of uniting China.
>>2620287>the very idea of a united China was a spectre for Japanese nationalists.The Japanese already did what they wanted with China, even under Chiang, with the Japanese invading Manchuria in the early 1930s and turning it into a puppet state. That Japanese escalation in China honestly was independent of Chiang's nationalist project and I'd argue almost entirely due to deranged Japanese army politics, which of course hated Chinese nationalism, but moreso hated Communism, and wanted imperial expansion for economic purposes among other things.
>>2620321I’m aware of how factionalistic the Japanese were during the war and that many of the actions in China were being pushed by younger officers. But the invasion of Manchuria was a last-ditch attempt by Japan to secure coal and Iron for its war capacity. No one in China was happy with Japan taking Manchuria. Even aside from their efforts to deal with the Communists, the KMT was stretching itself thin trying to assert control over Mongolia Xinjiang, and Tibet. Obviously I'm defending Japanese imperialism, but they were correct that within a decade or two, KMT China would be able to get back on their feet and challenge Japan for control of Manchuria.
>>2620815Wow. This was pretty big on old /leftypol/. I can't believe it turned out like that.
>>2615344Jesus Christ, I swear I’m not a doomer but we have to be realistic about the material reality. Can you at least acknowledge that, while the Naxals and the NPA aren’t finished, they’re at a much weaker stage and won’t be able to mount an offensive for a while, unless a powerful foreign backer aids them?
>>2620815>In fact most of them were. That's so not true lmao, you are legitimately retarded.
Thousands went, many died, many are still there. This narrative about le photoshoot holiday terrorists just comes off like Turkish nonsense no different than you'd hear out of the likes of the Israelis.
>>2637948Naxals faced a number of tactical defeats in 2025 and have strategic issues. NPA seems to only be expanding operations, idk why people keep repeating they are on their last legs. And both would not have so much money and manpower spent into trying to stop them if the fascists didn't percieve them as a threat.
>>2620815A bunch of YPG volunteers died in battle
>>2620815>(they always referred to them as Fascists, never jihadists)They are tho.
>Turns out, they were just managing social media accounts. In fact most of them were. The Kurds mostly wanted them for grunt work.Not all but most yeah. If they had fought you would be saying they used them as cannon fodder.
I only trust maoists.
>>2638008>They are tho.Why do you people think Fascism is some magical ideology that just appears and can be applied to any society or context, rather than an evolution of Sorelian syndicalism that a street-gangster socialist warped into a form of state nationalism and took off due to the conditions within his nation and has no relation to ISIS’s ideology, which evolved from Salafism and spread the failures of Arab nationalism and formed its specific military understanding of conflict during the Soviet–Afghan War.
>Not all but most yeah. If they had fought you would be saying they used them as cannon fodder.It varied by group. TQILA and a few others were absolutely part of a media-political outreach program, but those who wanted to fight and did not seem completely ineffective were given some work on the front lines. The Western volunteers who did the bulk of the fighting and dying were overwhelmingly Kurds from Turkey, many of whom had some military training due to national service.
>>2638044>Sorelian syndicalism that a street-gangster socialist warped into a form of state nationalismSo islamism lmao
>>2638054What the fuck are you talking about? I live in a Muslim country and Islamists and ethno-nationalists(who are nominally socialists) are constantly clashing. I can admit there are rare regional exceptions where Islamism does intersect with ethnic nationalism, but unlike you I’m not stuck in 1970s academia. Now, don’t you have better things to do, like reading a paper about how riding bikes is Fascist
>>2637958>>2637966>The YPG’s casualty data confirms linkages between international PKK-linked groups. Kurds from Turkey total 49.24 percent of the YPG’s self-reported casualties between January 2013 and January 2016, according to an ongoing Atlantic Council study. YPG martyrdom notices show that 359 Turkish citizens, 323 Syrians, 32 Iranians, seven Iraqis, two Australians, two Azeris, and a person from England, Germany, Greece, and the United States each have been killed fighting with the group since January 2013. To be sure, there are methodological problems with the data: The two authors relied on self-reported numbers and have not been able to cross-reference this information with the PYD.>>2638084I never said there weren’t any casualties. A few did die but in terms of most impact from Western volunteers, the most substantial came from SF guys who helped train the various militias, but western leftists (excluding the Turkish Kurds), outside of the media image were negligible as a whole. Like I said before, the Shia fighter from Lebanon probably did far more to defeat ISIS, and that doesn’t mean you should be praising Hezbollah, but you can acknowledge that you can have allies you disagree with.
>>2638198
>Jan 2016.
So, right before a bunch of fairly large offensives and so on, then?
I'm not even saying you are wrong but this is not firm grounding to build a conclusion off of either way, just of the top of my head i can think of at least for example 5 or 6 dead from the UK and most would very likely be from the couple of years proceeding this date.
>PRC
>Gets established with the help of the USSR via the Comintern
>Comintern and USSR dissolves / gets overthrown
>Maoists, greatly inspired by the Chinese revolution, attempts to overthrow their bourgeois dictatorships in their semi-feudal and semi-colonial, mostly agricultural, Asian countries.
>China pretends they don't exist, keep relations with the bourgeois state
>Thread filled with "give up" posts
>Most clearly don't know the facts of either the Chinese revolution or the strategy applied by Maoists in India or the Philippines, as they mistake both the approach to the proletariat, peasantry and urban area.
>>2614215>Wait until multipolarity builds up the local proletariat enough?Yes?
And if they had more than one braincell they would assist in this process so they dont have to wait half a century
>>2638238USSR, China, DPRK, AES are so stupid lmao they should've just waited!
Why didn't they think of that?
>>2637948>unless a powerful foreign backer aids them?>>2637961>unless a powerful foreign backer aids them?dont worry you two, climate change will destablize current bourg regimes. The happenings will happen.
(also we might die but eh I rather take the gamble. Since we have no choice)
>>2638246None of their revolutions occured under u.s. unipolarity
They've all transformed into banditry. It's over for their movements.
>>2638234>>Most clearly don't know the facts of either the Chinese revolution or the strategy applied by Maoists in India or the Philippines, as they mistake both the approach to the proletariat, peasantry and urban area. No one except a handful of somewhat edgy contrarians is saying “give up.” Most of us are making rational arguments and are just trying to analyze the failures of these insurgencies from a military and political perspective. No one is calling them terrorists either, but these movements are either dead or confined to a handful (and I mean a very small handful) of people holed up in a village, probably in retreat for years.
Also, stop treating Foco like it’s some mathematical formula. The man who literally wrote failed in the Congo and Bolivia. It only sort of works when you’re up against a shit-tier military and have a population where the majority actively despises the ruling power and wants something else.
>>2638280Maoists (mainline, not Gonzaloists) don't follow foco in urban areas from what I've seen. There they resemble Marxist-Leninist (anti-revisionist) more in praxis, applying more Maoist mass line, dialectics and less capitulationism towards parliamentarist right-wing populist culture war shit, at least from what I've seen.
This goes for both mainline Maoists both in literal imperialist countries where the terrain is The Urban Area as well as the urban area of, say, the Philippines. It's party (CPP), army (existing in red base areas in the rural areas outside the metropole), united front. The united front includes a lot of mass work organizations. A lot of those, in contrast to going around focoing themselves up like Guevarists adventurists, are actually based in the urban area doing what a Hoxhaist party would do for outreach in like Portugal or something, but following the mass line, agitating, organizing, educating, protesting, doing street art, unionizing, striking,
et cetera. I’d argue that part of the problem is that some of these Marxist movements in former colonies were basically nationalist movements that recognized they could get some foreign support if they called themselves Communists. Once the USSR is gone, what is Communism’s raison d’etre?
Like many of these movements would later be supplanted by vaguely nationalist, conservative, and religious movements later—PFLP by Hamas for example. This is in no small part because the demands made by the communists, many of them or rather the most compelling ones, could often be picked up by widely diverse groups. Ultimately the reason someone chooses to join PFLP or Hamas is because of Israel, the reason one chooses one group over the other is because of a variety of factors ranging anywhere from which group is strongest locally to which gives him the most compelling pitch, and the thing is most Palestinians are “born” Muslim, few if any are “born” Communist. Islam ideologically reproduces itself in society throughout the Arabic world, Communism is adopted. It’s an ideology you teach yourself individually; not something that you’re immersed in as a child. A man who talks about Martyrs, Jihad, Jannah, and Allah is speaking the language of the common people, a man talking about Bourgeoisie, Proletariat, and Class War is speaking the language of foreign academics.
In cases where it’s not just a movement fighting against direct colonialism, where it comes down to various issues, how compelling is “class war” to people? Tribes and nations can appeal to deeply felt resentments and grudges, they can craft “myths” in some Sorelian sense. “Class war” is a kind of science, one that isn’t deeply felt the same way as “that foreigner is trying to take your cookie.”
>>2638345>I’d argue that part of the problem is that some of these Marxist movements in former colonies were basically nationalist movements that recognized they could get some foreign support if they called themselves Communists. Once the USSR is gone, what is Communism’s raison d’etre? I talked about this here
>>2615584, virtually every successful Communist/Socialist revolution/movement after WW2 was 90% driven by nationalism.
>>2638345You’re partially right but it’s complicated. Soviet aid and even recognition were the biggest drivers of Socialist groups during the Cold War. This obviously affected politics and while people largely remained Muslim in faith, certain Socialist and Communist ideas filtered through and shaped national and even peasant political understanding. The socialist rhetoric became part of the Zeitgeist of revolution. When the USSR ended, it was both a material and spiritual defeat.
Internal jihadism, which had developed during the Soviet–Afghan conflict, seemed to become the new zeitgeist. It carried both spiritual weight and material backing (from Gulf and Saudi financing). Though one artefact of the previous Soviet influence was that now leadership position of even Islamist movements would often be called the “general secretary.”
But now even Islamism has been defeated both spiritually and materially. Iran where the Islamic Revolution began has the lowest mosque attendance in the Middle East. Our slightly higher birth rates that we boasted about are now near or below replacement level. We are dealing with a housing crisis and a rising cost of living, and no mullah can offer a real solution.
As of now, it’s a politically bizarre time. I don’t think socialism will return in full force, simply because there is no longer a material or “spiritual/ideological” benefactor. Nationalism however is definitely making a comebac
>>2638345>they can craft “myths” in some Sorelian senseI am not familiar with Sorelianism, what does this ideology mean by this?
What about Colombia and Burma?
>>2638401> certain Socialist and Communist ideas filtered through and shaped national and even peasant political understanding.this
Again I feel like the Zapatistas are just doing that because they believe they can outlast the Mexican state without armed struggle if that makes sense
>>2638464I’m share your exhaustion if not your ideological conviction
>>2638363I don't think it's "just" nationalism to be honest.
Let me try to explain: I've got a hypothesis that Fascism acts as a check on socialist revolution
by existing, in that sense it doesn't even need to be successful or claim power or even directly confront Socialism. I think what Fascism accomplishes, is that it splits radicalism down the middle.
Like a lot of the guys that would go on to fight in the Red Army weren't really "Communists" in a meaningful sense. You've got Kerensky remarking that he saw graffiti that said "Down with the Jew, Kerensky! Long live Trotsky!" You had Trotsky claiming that the Russians would try to accept Bolshevism while rejecting Communism. Allegedly you even had some Red Army conscripts boo the term "Communism" when it was used in a speech.
With Fascism I think something unique happened which imperiled Socialism, which is that those guys who still retained reactionary tendencies but understood the need for revolution had an alternative now. Which isn't to say Fascism is de facto "revolutionary" but rather it heavily presents as such. It isn't so much that Fascism "beat Socialism into submission" so much as it created a fracture that could be exploited by liberals and even Fascists themselves. I believe it was Nicola Bombacci who was in exile in Russia that was asked by a Communist why they didn't just kill ᴉuᴉlossnW when they had the chance, and his answer was basically that the Fascists absorbed some of the most violent (and thus most willing to assassinate) cadres of the Socialist movement. I think even Hitler briefly remarked (before he got into power) that he wanted to convert more Communists to Nazism because he admired their commitment to ideological violence.
So this gives Fascism a distinct advantage, because when liberalism fails and it becomes obvious to everyone, Fascism presents itself as the "revolutionary" alternative. It appeals to prejudices and rhetoric that people already have, and in order to counteract this co-opting of revolutionary language, Socialists have illustrate and propagandize their differences. Fascists will absorb Socialist tendencies and tolerate them to a degree while keeping them broadly out of power, but Socialists filter out conservative and Fascist tendencies with greater and greater urgency. A man who rants about "fat cat capitalists" would not necessarily get expelled from a Fascist movement, but if he were to rant about "the Jews" he would undoubtedly get expelled from a Socialist one.
This is not to argue "we should tolerate anti-semitism" but rather just an observation.
Anyways, when Fascism fractures a revolutionary movement, it's fairly common for Socialists to ally with liberal forces to defeat them. This has especially been the case in modern times with France, where National Rally gets pushed back in no small part because centrists and leftists are willing to work against them (with of course plenty of backstabbing from centrists), but where these Fascist pushes are "defeated" it doesn't result in a Left-Wing victory because it can't "absorb" these disparate forces, it doesn't even want to! Whereas when Fascism gains a victory, it tries desperately to "absorb" certain segments of the Left. Socialism in that regard becomes like a dam while Fascism is like a river: the dam can break and the river will wash it away, but the river isn't ever "swallowed" by the dam, it merely stagnates while it waits for an opportunity to break free.
>>2638401Oh for sure, I don't think its a case of "this is gonna be this way for all time" and I think one thing is that these extreme right wing regimes still fall to the contradictions of capitalism; like I told some TradCath over here that claimed to be a "former Communist who read all the literature" that if he can't actually explain how the Tendency of The Rate of Profit to fall is "solved" then he's had less of an ideological conversion and more has just chosen to close his eyes to stuff he supposedly already learned.
I think what makes Nationalism enduring and a powerful force is that everyone relates to "The Nation" differently, and it can even conceptualize a splinter of class consciousness under its umbrella; i.e. you can conceptualize income inequality as being bad for "the nation" for example.
>>2638405>I am not familiar with Sorelianism, what does this ideology mean by this?I've gone on for a bit so I'll try to be brief. Georges Sorel was a French Syndicalist and laid some ideas down that would go on to inspire Socialists and Fascists alike. One of these ideas was that of a "revolutionary myth". Think of it like an ideal that makes itself "real" by virtue of inspiring to act on it. For example: Early Christians believed in the imminent return of Jesus Christ and the end of the world, they believed in that so much they formed communes, they let themselves be torn apart in grisly spectacles of martyrdom, they preached to anyone who would hear them about the "One True God" and while Jesus didn't return, over time Christianity became the State Religion of Rome.
Lets use another example: regardless of whether one believes in the revelations of the Prophet Muhammad or that he was guided by an omnipotent God and that's what let him succeed, the fact is that his preaching Islam convinced people to believe in Islam and those believers would, through the audacity of genuine faith, go on to completely shape a third of the world and become one of the most populous religions on earth.
Finally, Sorel brings his claims of myth to "the present" or rather his present, in the notion of the Syndicalist general strike. Basically, its the belief in a General Strike as a myth, as this eschaton, this final battle between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat, that spurs workers towards making it a reality. When a worker is sabotaging a piece of equipment or a factory in the name of a General Strike, it's not because of rational or scientific planning necessarily, but because he's spurred on by a myth, the myth of the General Strike. Another worker in another factory learns of this act of sabotage, and having already internalized the myth of the General Strike, he too commits an act of sabotage in order to bring this General Strike about.
To Sorel, "Myths" weren't idle Utopias or conceptions of "the world to be", they were romanticized conceptions of struggle. If the early Christians or Muslims didn't genuinely believe in their respective "myths" they likely wouldn't have struggled as hard to make them real. If they didn't believe in a Heaven or a final revelation or what have you, they'd have no reason to let themselves be eaten by lions or stand up to overwhelming odds.
Sorel conceived of Marx as a brilliant sociologist who created an effective modern myth: The Class War. And it was that enduring belief in Class War that Sorel was convinced would spur radical and violent conflicts with Capitalism.
>>2638470 (edited)
>Oh for sure, I don't think its a case of "this is gonna be this way for all time" and I think one thing is that these extreme right wing regimes still fall to the contradictions of capitalismnta but I think socialism is in a pretty good position to exploit the climate crisis. Assuming it doesnt go bad to the point of extinction, no other ideology really provides a solution for it. Liberal capitalism caused it. Fascism still promotes capital in it and doesnt really provide any real solutions for it. And the ensuing consequences of it.
Socialism feels like the only system that could really deal with this situation
>>2638483Reversion to feudalism or slavery are also possible
>>2638485Its certainly possible in portions of the world, but I dont see them winning out. Feudalism and slavery are both heavily inefficent systems. All it takes is a few socialist states to rise up. And these will spread. Especially since the majority of people dont want to live in feudalism or slavery
>>2638487My bet for that is on the complete loss of productive capacity needed for capitalism, if you don’t have the fuel to burn for factories you can have capitalism and thus will revert to feudalism/slave/oriental mode of production or some patchwork mix of all pre capitalist social orders
>>2638493>complete loss of the economic conditions that lead and sustain capitalism>will cause a reversion to feudalism/ slavrey/oriental mode of productionhmm yeah that would be possible
>>2614138The Naxals getting completely annihilated by a moderate offensive by the Indian government was almost funny after we had Maoists on here constantly spamming this one image and that all Western leftists are bad because we're not these guys and how they're all totally right about to take over India any day now just you wait.
Anyone who did any amount of research could tell that this was a terrible strategy and this day was coming sooner or later.
>>2638470I’m not a Westerner. I never grew up with Fascism presented as the ultimate boogeyman. To me I see it as an evolution of Sorelian syndicalism that was warped by a group of street gangsters who combined a half-understanding of socialism with their violent tendencies. I don’t see it as some biblical boogeyman. Hell, even if it did manage to come back, I bet China would probably still trade with them. The word Fascist itself was originally used for syndicalist labor unions in Italy.
>>2638485>>2638487>>2638500I think the most probable future of the world resembling Central Asia, openly authoritarian, quasi-socialist and nationalist states that simply function, better than liberal capitalist nations but having chance of actual revolution. To me the political systems of Central Asia seem the most probable for the end of history.
>>2638553so basically something like a more stable version of iran (even tho thats technically not part of central asia)
>>2638562the aliyev model of azerbaijan
>>2638571Not everywhere has Armenians to hate and ethnically cleanse
>>2638571Hmm, I havent really read about this state. Guess I have some future reading material now
>>2638502Khrushchevite/Dengist Social Fascist/Social Imperialist Capitalist Roader Revisionist Marcyite Campists like yourself fall hook, line, and sinker for the Anti-Communist Propaganda of the Hindutva Fascist Bourgeois Comprador Indian State that spreads lies that the CPI (Maoist) has “surrendered” when in reality the CPI (Maoist) has already chosen a new General-Secretary named Thippiri Tirupathi to replace Nambala Keshava Rao who died on May 21 2025 valiantly fighting the Hindutva Fascist Bourgeois Comprador Indian State, and the Naxalite Maoist PPW in India continues in the Strategic Defensive Stage (the First Stage of Maoist PPW) where the Bourgeois forces have the upper hand and the Maoists are confined to a Low-level Insurgency, but it will advance to the Strategic Stalemate Stage (The Second Stage of Maoist PPW) once World War III breaks out and the Hindutva Fascist Bourgeois Comprador Indian State is bogged down fighting China and Pakistan which will allow the Naxalites to start seizing control of large sections of Rural India (they will probably even receive Military aid from China), and it will finally reach the Strategic Offensive Stage (The Third and Final Stage of Maoist PPW) in which the Maoists overwhelm the Bourgeois forces when World War III escalates into a Global Nuclear War (including a Nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan) that will collapse the Hindutva Fascist Bourgeois Comprador Indian State (along with completely destroying the entire Global Capitalist-Imperialist System, thus allowing for a World Maoist PPW to create a Global USSR) and allow the Naxalites to take over all of India and establish a Federation of Socialist States in South Asia, including a Hindi SFSR, Kashmiri SSR, Punjabi SSR, Sindhi SSR, Gujarati SSR, Marathi SSR, Konkani SSR, Kannada SSR, Malayalam SSR, Tamil SSR, Telugu SSR, Odia SSR, Bengali SSR, Nepali SSR, Assamese SSR, Nissi SSR, Mizo SSR, Manipuri SSR, Ao SSR, and Khasi SSR, which will all join the Global USSR (All of the SSRs and SFSRs of the future Global USSR are shown in the Map I posted) that will place the Workers and Oppressed Nations of the World on the Shining Path to Communism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>2638643You’re a zionist and not even funny
>>2638643oh my god dude shut up stop spamming your coal
>>2614138>so what is to done?Acceleration
BREAKING NEWS:
CHINA AND RUSSIA HAVE WRITTEN STATEMENTS TO THE US STATE DEPARTMENT INSISTING THAT THEY SHOULDN'T DO WHAT THEY ARE ABOUT TO DO
thats it
>>2644670ivet you're a newfag, don't you dare talk like that to King Lear
know your place
one less holdout
The bourgeoise got their eternal reich a few decades ago, they're just cleaning house and tidying it up a bit for what's to come.
The biggest impact of CPP is that libbed pinoy offshore devs don't like using it as a suffix for their code files lel.
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