Now don't get me wrong, I hate Zionists with a passion, but what was Hamas trying to achieve? From what I know, Oct. 7th was their attempt to stop normalization between the Arab states and Israel. But given the track record of Arab puppet rulers being such treacherous cunts, it's not a surprise that the vast majority of them responded either with covert or even overt collaboration with Israel.
On top of that, the supposedly "based" countries sat around and did nothing. Russia abandoned Syria while Turkey brought a Zionist puppet terrorist to power there. Iran dropped a singular ICBM barrage on Tel Aviv to save face, after repeatedly getting humiliated. China and Russia didn't use their veto either, while simultaneously trading with Israel and profiting off of the genocide. Overall, trade with Israel continued as usual, no coordinated attempt was taken by the rest of the world to sanction them like how Russia was sanctioned by the west for attacking Ukraine.
I feel like I was duped by the Pro-Russia/Pro-China/Multipolarist alt-media complex on Xitter and YouTube into thinking that it was only a matter of time before Israel lost all credibility and diplomatic support, and that Iran would go to war with them and nuke the shit out of them any day. I thought maybe Russia and China would use it as an opportunity to finally get back at westoids and coordinate to greatly diminish westoid influence by crippling Israel at a time of need. Maybe that was the calculation that went on in the heads of Hamas leaders, I don't know.
The only real ones who stuck their neck out to try and help the Palestinians were the Houthis, who themselves have been under constant bombardment by Soydi Arabia and Burgerreich. Truly the era of the blackest reaction.
56 posts and 8 image replies omitted.>>2616843>Yet the vast majority of westerners still fall in line to support them every single time. How does that work?If by this you mean that they go to work and pay taxes and don't actively spontaneously do things to combat the existing governments, then yes, I agree. The majority of every society follows whatever the path of least resistance is, even revolutionary societies. In these conditions, it's not productive to worry about the majority who criticize the status quo, but who go no further than that out of concern for their personal wellbeing. Anyone willing to go further must be concerned foremost with their own willingness to do so and with working with others who are equally willing. An absolute majority is not even needed in order to govern a society, let alone to just do sabotage.
>If you haven't noticed the westoid pattern of behaviour I don't know what to do.I've noticed the pattern of behavior of whiny do-nothing "radicals" on the internet who hide their own impotence behind vacuous whinging about "westoids" or "femoids" or "leftoids." Woe is thee, special little enlightened child who is better and smarter than everybody else and therefore doomed to never actually do anything of value.
>They're not.They are.
>Quit buying this excuse or you will keep getting duped over and over again.Nobody is duping me. The average person is not an expert on this, and setting that as the bar they need to jump is just not very smart. You're prioritizing being
based over actually getting anything done. You work with who you can work with and that's it; the DNC is willing to exploit the general public's lack of attention to detail, the DNC
doesn't care what they believe or if they hate the DNC's real programme. Our enemies are ruthless, and they use their resources on ruthless consolidation of power, they lie about who they are
for a reason. We don't even
have to lie, anti-Zionism is the popular position Zionists now pretend to hold, but some of you wouldn't even be willing to lie even if it wasn't, even if it necessary to beat the powers-that-be.
>Need I say more? Nazi Germany had more internal resistance than America and Israel.Than "Israel" especially, there's been more sabotage in the US than in "Israel," but not enough.
Also, this isn't an argument. Thousands were arrested at demonstrations in the US. Millions have demonstrated. I don't particularly care about all this
"oh, but there was more internal resistance in Nazi Germany!" stuff, the problem is directing energy constructively and utilizing existing anti-Zionism, not whether or not we have the same level of resistance today as a different historical Fascist state. I could compare the present-day US unfavorably with even
the US of 80 years ago, that says fuck-all except that the necessary action is all the more necessary.
>>2616863>I've noticed the pattern of behavior of whiny do-nothing "radicals" on the internet who hide their own impotence behind vacuous whinging about "westoids" or "femoids" or "leftoids."Says the guy who calls for wrecking arms manufacturer facilities even though there has been just one minor incident of that actually happening. Such projection. In fact, it is perfectly in line with how westoids have always behaved. Just look at what they have done during every single one of their genocides. They're more likely to wreck anti-genocide protests at the behest of weapons manufacturers.
>>2616863How many factories have YOU bombed?
>>2616879>Says the guy who calls for wrecking arms manufacturer facilities even though there has been just one minor incidentWrong.
There've been multiple incidents in the US alone. In the UK there have been more. The incident I specifically referred to when I said
at least one had occurred in the US was a particular incident in which the factory
closed as a result of the sabotage. It was not the only incident. I have never claimed to be impressed by these numbers, they need to be higher, but you still don't even have your facts straight.
Also, there not being many great successes is cause for
more work, not
less. It takes a completely unserious person to see an inadequate movement and use that as justification to do nothing.
>a bunch of hyperbole about "westoids"Still vacuous whinging and nothing more.
>>2616886All of the offices registered to munitions companies in my area have been abandoned; I only know because I have been to them. The public directories weren't up to date for them when I went. One building is derelict and boarded up, and isn't even in use by
anybody, another has had the "defense" contractors vacate relatively recently. Of course, I'll tell you immediately when I've ventured further and found the closest one that's still operating.
What's the actual numbers on arms in the Israeli stockpile and their origin? Would they not as a modern industrial state be quite capable of replacing any American or EU supplied arms with indigenous (as in made in Israel, not indigenous as in implying Zionists are natives) manufacturing/arms production even in the highly unrealistic case that they were completely cut off from arms supply by USA and EU? I'm for some reason not convinced that stopping arms shipments from USA and EU, even if it were to somehow be done, would make a significant difference in Israel's capability of continuing to crush Gaza, smash south Lebanon, and keep the Arabs down in general.
>>2616325>but what was Hamas trying to achieve? My guess is international support for their cause. They had to pick between slow or fast genocide and decided that latter was better for their goals. But then again irrationality/feelings/islamism is a simpler explanation.
>>2616946Yeah, Hamas is fucked. Yahya Sinwar was really fucking cool when he fought till his death though.
>>2616916>Would they not as a modern industrial stateHere's the kicker: they aren't.
They are entirely dependent on handouts.
Even was stuff they
do make is generally either US-funded or is US/European tech.
It also takes a long time to produce the munitions they burn through, even with the US
doing it for them for free. "Israel's" missile defense stockpile was largely depleted within 12 days, they're relying on US stockpiles in addition to newly made US bombs.
The US and Europe are also much, much bigger industrial bases than "Israel," and no one is going to be their main supplier
for free if the US stops doing it. The US and Europe also handle military intelligence, satellite targeting, and the US pays off corrupt Arab leaders like El-Sisi to comply with "Israel's" dictates for Egyptian borders. The US, on "Israel's" behalf has bombed Yemen, Syria, Iraq, and Iran, and that's just in the past two years.
During the exchanges with Iran, the US and European countries were directly responsible for the largest amount of missile interceptions.
I'll also point out that the premise of your question is nonsense. We aren't living in a hypothetical scenario where "Israel" doesn't get billions of dollars in bottomless free advanced weaponry every year. We're living in the reality where "Israel" used 80 bunker buster bombs in a single run and destroyed 6 apartment blocks in Beirut in their ""assassination"" mission against Nasrallah. They get them for free, and that's why they used more in that single raid than the US, which makes (and pays for) them has used in entire wars. There is no serious good faith argument to be made that having bottomless free shit isn't the central part of their advantage.
>>2616904So you wrecked zero factories yourself.
>>2616429>nationalists copingIsraeli workers are the only ones who can stop the genocide. It being difficult doesn't mean it isn't true.
>>2616972So far ITT about half of the responses to me have been
>you don't understand, it's HOPELESS, fellow Marxists! Only being a whiny do-nothing is valuable! People simply don't care!and
>have you personally committed a federal crime?I was right when I said:
<I'm going to treat this like it's not concern trolling, which I probably shouldn't do.Ciao.
>>2616764Yep.
>>2616962>>2616916US yearly aid to Israel is $3.8 billion. Israel's GDP is $610 billion (IMF).
>>26170600.6% of your GDP is much bigger than what you think.
It seems that in the Middle East nation state system, the strong (in this case, Israel) do as they will while the weak (Gaza, south Lebanon, Syria etc) suffer as they must. The answer, seemingly, is then to follow not the war-map but the map of the class struggle (Trotsky). So the working class in Israel, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria etc. must all unite across religious, ethnic and national boundaries to forge a socialist federation of the Middle East
>>2617072the hard to accept, but true statement that was needed and is undeniable
>I feel like I was duped by the Pro-Russia/Pro-China/Multipolarist alt-media complex on Xitter and YouTube into thinking that it was only a matter of time before Israel lost all credibility and diplomatic support
This is a particularly pathetic attempt to redirect blame away from the western left who failed to eliminate western support for two genocide attempts, because Russia’s ability to oppose western-backed Fascists on their own border should have extended to opposing western-backed Zionists elsewhere. It’s pretty obvious to see what the common denominator is there.
>>2617112
It’s retarded to see people analyse Russia’s progress against the Banderite regime from both political wings and think that has ANY bearing on Israel-Palestine
Most of the western left completely surrendered to the idea that arming unironic fascists in Ukraine was acceptable, to then pikachu face that arming zionists committing an open genocide was also acceptable to the masses and then point the finger at the few who did not surrender to “arming Nazis can be justified” as though it’s their fault is patently absurd.
>>2616793I'm Arab living in the region, it's servile people like you who hang on to the status quo and use retarded populist cope to obscure class relations is why Palestinian workers (I give less fuck about their ruling class) have been occupied for a century.
We already did this song and dance, back then it was Arab nationalism that justifies the prevailing order, today it is Islamism. Just as it was proper for Nasser to declare victory following his failed imperialist venture for his regime survived so was the case for Iran's pathetic axis that spent its history bending over to the west and mass slaughtering workers for multinational capital.
Death to umah. Long live world revolution. Our enemy is at home.
>>2616546One Arab Israeli got jailed for posting "the eyes cry for Gaza" on social media. Not sure why you're expecting protests let alone sabotage. Israel isn't a free country unless you're jewish.
>>2617155>Israel isn't a free country unless you're jewishThat's antisemitic. AntiZionist Jews get jailed in Israel for similar offenses. Jews don't live in a free country in Israel, they live in a capitalist country where the dictates of capital (ensuring the smooth operation of capitalism's war(s) ) reign supreme and any who resist it, whether they are Arab or Jew, are subject to arrest.
>>2617160>That's antisemiticשקט יא בן זונה
>>2616808>Jolani is their puppet, and they hate him, but the way they humiliate him has even more to do with their hatred for Syrians in general.I think a lot of the anti-imperialist community which supported Assad has gotten into a copehole about this to paper over what was, fundamentally, internally weak regime to begin with. (That's one important purpose of conspiracy theories like "Jolani is a Zionist puppet.") Syria came into existence in the early 20th century while under the influence of colonialism (like Iraq and Lebanon), and while the Alawite-dominated Syrian state adopted anti-colonial nationalism, the French specifically recruited Alawites and Christians when they were the authorities there so the regime in fact inherited that pattern, and they didn't share a common identity with much of their own population. This eventually led to a civil war where the side representing the majority (Sunni Arabs) won, whatever you think of their ideology. That's historical fact now.
The Jews in Israel by comparison have operated since the late 1940s within a more durable nation-state framework. They are occupying a conquered people with no rights, but the state distributes services to its own citizens (the core Jewish group) and allows them to participate. They have a citizen army that's tied to a national project. Getting bankrolled by Americans and Germans certainly helps, but the U.S. has bankrolled a lot of failed governments, but Israel is still around because the Jews are numerous enough and also consider Israel to be "their" state in which they're stakeholders in that system.
What I'm emphatically not saying is "Israel = good" or "Syria = bad." It's just that the Arab world and Middle Eastern states can't mount much of a challenge to Israel if they're going to be ruled by mafia families that make every effort to make life miserable for EVERYONE under their control. Assad's cronies and his family controlled virtually all major businesses while the people had to get by on $20 a month while being threatened by aerial bombardment by their own government if they try to change that.
There was a Syrian Marxist named Sadiq J. Al-Azm who wrote some interesting things, but he didn't live to see the fall of Assad. I don't think I'd like to live under the Islamists much either but you have to remember that the more secular nad progressive people were killed off by Assad. Ideologically, the victors in the Syrian civil war have more in common with Hamas than Hamas did with Assad. But what a lot of the left does is play this game at the level of geopolitics, their first priority wasn't Syria or the people in revolt there.
>>2617233
>sunnis=retards
islamocuck spotted
>>2617240>the left after the cold warAnd what was the'Left' like during the cold war?
>>2616325>Truly the era of the blackest reaction.Indeed.
Right now, the US pirates Chinese oil tankers from Venezuela completely unpunished too.
It feels like Russian and Chinese leaders are also in the Epstein Files or something, which is why they bend over backwards to accommodate the US.
In all seriousness, the past year has shown that the US Empire is infact not declining. A dozen regimes in Southeast Asia and South America have been replaced with new puppets with no local resistance, with more to join next year. Europe has fully subjugated itself to US interests. Africa is being cut up… again.
Multipolarism is a fantasy. Everyone are traitors. Bourgeois solidarity for the US overruling any national interests. A true Axis of Resistance can only come from socialist alliance, which won't appear any time soon.
Shit's fucked…
>>2617098What has the Chinese and Russian left done tho?
>>2617072No multipolaroid will ever touch the true analysis
>>2617172Class struggle trumps all of that
>>2617240>Russian war on terror in Syria followed the same logic as the American one did in Iraq.Fucking how?
>>2617232>That's one important purpose of conspiracy theories like "Jolani is a Zionist puppet.Jolani is objectively a Zionist puppet. Let's accept your thesis that it's all about sect and other kinds of idpol bullshit. Is it supposed to be Assad's fault that Jolani is ready to contradict his Islamist ideology in the most ridiculous ways and even change his own name just to please Israel? And going by your logic, why isn't Egypt for example anti-imperialist when it's Sunni-majority nation ruled by Sunnis? Why does it also have a small clique controlling the economy in a way that only benefits themselves?
What should Assad have done? Assad's Syria was objectively the most socialist state in the Middle East after Ghaddafi's fall and excluding the Gulf monarchies who are able to have extensive social programs because they are valuable assets of the US empire. Should he have given more space for Islamists when the pressure by Islamists was the vehicle for neoliberal reforms in the first place (in the 1990's he softened the secular aspects of the constitution AND opened up the economy)? Are going to deny again that the reason why his enemies didn't accept his offer to enact democratic reforms was because Assad refused to delete the articles pertaining to social rights and economic sovereignty from the constitution? And this is based on accepting your premise informed by Sunni Islamist propaganda that Syria is ruled by Alawites, which is not true, especially in the economic sense and that's precisely the reason why Assad was overthrown so easily.
Again, if I accept that it's all about identity, shouldn't I despise Sunnis who as Islamists act as the agents of the US empire everywhere outside of Palestine? If Ba'athism was the only progressive force in the Middle East, shouldn't have Ba'athists acted more brutally against every Islamist militant and would-be militant, along with their entire family? But here we a care about socialism and national sovereignty and that's why we supported Assad, with all his faults.
It's not like we pro-Assad Western leftists are the ones responsible for Arabs choosing to support pro-imperialist movements or otherwise staying silent while suffering blows from imperialism when our support has no weight and therefore can't cause Arabs to feel that we are imposing a solution to their problems that is foreign to them, which wouldn't be true either way because Soviet support only made Ba'athism stronger and now it's all retarded golem Islamists in the Middle East.
Sunni Islamism is not just about identity. It's the ideology of reactionary tribal leaders and it's specifically designed to weaken and destroy Middle Eastern countries seeking sovereignty. Their doctrine about how nation-states are haram shares a striking similarity to your Trotskyite delusions about some kind of vague revolution in the Middle East while condemning Actually Existing Anti-Imperialism, even suggesting that the ""revolution"" should strike against them first.
In the end, Syria fell because it was destroyed by war and sanctions, which in turn happened because they were an obstacle to the aims of US imperialism and because the US likes to destroy a country from time to time to serve as a warning to others. It just took a little bit more time than in Libya or Iraq.
Egypt turned into a comprador state and a total shithole mostly peacefully and today their leader goes on diabolical rants on live TV talking about how people shouldn't complain about being poor because, get this, he is going to kill them if they try to overthrow him. Of course the Western leftist (you) who knows how to oppose imperialism much better than the Arabs themselves doesn't spend much time talking about a country like this. Assad/AoR fans are also guilty of this, but at least we uphold concrete manifestations of anti-imperialism.
>>2617317It was actually Russia who is the primary ally of the Gulf monarchies which funded Al-Queda and ISIS and the one country that posesses the single global reserve currency and therefore has a vested interest in controlling the global trade of strategic natural resources like oil 😀
>>2617317Except that Russia actually destroyed ISIS once they entered the conflict.
Unlike America which destroyed a country (Iraq) which had nothing to do with Al Qaeda.
>>2617330>>2617406Russia actually encouraged Jihadis from the Caucasus to go to Syria, they used it as an opportunity to rid their own territory of them.
>>2617406>Russia actually destroyed ISISthey're still kicking it, extremely weak, but they're still there, and probably will make a comeback precisely because there isn't any stable governance in the region
>>2617419Russia essentially strat bombed cities which is useless when it comes to destroying anything but innocent civilians, Rojava was much more effective against ISIS because they had boots on the ground. Also the US basically created ISIS in the first place by destroying Iraq and making a whole bunch of skilled politicos and military personal unemployed and radicalized
>>2617321>Is it supposed to be Assad's fault that Jolani is ready to contradict his Islamist ideology in the most ridiculous ways and even change his own name just to please Israel?I don't… think so? I don't think these statements follow each other.
>And going by your logic, why isn't Egypt for example anti-imperialist when it's Sunni-majority nation ruled by Sunnis? Why does it also have a small clique controlling the economy in a way that only benefits themselves?It's interesting you bring that up though because Egypt is effectively run by the military which ousted the Muslim Brotherhood after a revolution (of sorts) that happened at the same time as the one in Syria began. In Egypt you're looking at a victorious counter-revolution.
>What should Assad have done? Hell if I know.
>Again, if I accept that it's all about identity, shouldn't I despise Sunnis who as Islamists act as the agents of the US empire everywhere outside of Palestine? No I don't think you should despise Sunnis.
>If Ba'athism was the only progressive force in the Middle East, shouldn't have Ba'athists acted more brutally against every Islamist militant and would-be militant, along with their entire family? No I wouldn't have recommended that. I mean how more brutal could they have acted anyways?
>Sunni Islamism is not just about identity. It's the ideology of reactionary tribal leaders and it's specifically designed to weaken and destroy Middle Eastern countries seeking sovereignty.Eh, there are different kinds of Islam, not just tribal leaders although that's one version. Actually think an element in play in Syria is a kind of "business Islam" that you see with the Turkish AKP and in the Gulf. That's why the new government there is talking up free markets and integrating into the global economy. That's not really tribal, it's more bourgeois.
>Their doctrine about how nation-states are haram shares a striking similarity to your Trotskyite delusions about some kind of vague revolution in the Middle EastI'm not sure the rulers of Syria are against the nation-state in theory? Like, ISIS is, yeah. But that's a really extreme group and not the same thing. Like instead of that you're seeing "Islamism in one country" or "jihad at home." Or Syrian Islamic nationalism. I don't think this stuff about it just being the U.S./Israel in disguise is convincing though, like the U.S. can back them up but ultimately HTS emerged from within this society, as I see it. You know the Taliban sees HTS as a rather fraternal sort of group.
>Egypt turned into a comprador state and a total shithole mostly peacefully and today their leader goes on diabolical rants on live TV talking about how people shouldn't complain about being poor because, get this, he is going to kill them if they try to overthrow him.Yup, 100%.
>Assad/AoR fans are also guilty of this, but at least we uphold concrete manifestations of anti-imperialism.For you it sounds like it essentially comes down to geopolitical alignment. I think that's the main point of difference between us. But problem is, it doesn't really matter what either of us think in terms of how events actually play out which comes down to domestic political economy and state legitimacy, and while the geopolitics might shape outcomes, it's not determinative. The U.S. armed Syrian rebels but Russia and Iran backed up Assad and failed at their job. Just couldn't do it. I'm also supposed to believe in this Axistard theory of the world that the U.S. is in decline and can't succeed at this but apparently it did! But actually the U.S. has failed in many countries backing up some regime that imploded, but that's because the U.S. can't make a society stay loyal to Washington all by themselves if that society doesn't want to be.
Unique IPs: 27