Singapore is an economical and social miracle undoubtedly, low rate of corruption, high rate of employment, FDI, Income and quality of life in general.
All this achieved through a strict neoliberal economy, Lee Yew is practically worshipped by Neoliberal for not only his policies but also for his Anti-communist operations.
Marxist (atleast I haven't found any) can point out to any contradiction plaguing Singaporean multicultural society.
Does this economical path is the way to prosperity, as an alternative to liberal western ideology.
What does /leftypol/ say on this? Can he be refuted by Dialectical Materialism?
>>2618165Being Venice 2.0 and sitting on trade routes isn't an accomplishment.
>>2618165>Singapore is an economical and social miracle undoubtedlyIts just another tax haven for bourgies. You could say the same about Switzerland but it has more social policies.
>>2618169There are other port cities also. It is not a special one.
>>2618171Yes, but during its inception it was more oriented towards industries and not just a financial capital like Hong kong.
Singapore is just an East Asian Dubai which rightoids have psyopped themselves into believing as an ideal state
>>2618178>which rightoids have psyopped themselves into believing as an ideal stateIts becsuse its a perfect example (in their minds) for the success of authoritarian liberalism
fascism.
>>2618178But does not have any natural resources the capital has to come from somewhere, to provide affordable housing
>>2618180How is it fascism? It is one party system yes, but fascist?
>>2618183>How is it fascism? It is one party system yes, but fascist?Because Singapore preserved private property and crushed labor power. Its the "final stage" of capitalism in crisis. Unrestricted neoliberalism where dictatorship of the bourgeoisie
literally whips proles into submission.
>>2618188This is the dumbest 1940s tier understanding of fascism. Literally everything you said about fascism (preservation of private property, disciplinarian action against proles) were present in the USSR, does this mean fascism is just early stage socialism?
>>2618165I'm actually going over there in a month, if there's anyone there please give me pointers on where to go
>>2618188>capitalism in crisisWhere is the crisis? It is at the top of every index, for several years.
What are you smoking?
>crushed labor powerThe labourers have accepted the ideology, even though the labourers per say don't exist. Many of the workers are migrants from another country, like Malaysia, Philippines and other asian countries.
>>2618194Singapore has instituted diversity in workplaces, and it has an Israel tier citizenship system, a Malaysian Chinese guy has a higher chance of getting citizenship within two years than a white guy or an Indian laborer who's been there for twenty years.
>>2618193Meet Crinacle for me, he is an youtuber who makes videos about IEMs, and has his own line up of IEMs.
>>2618195Wow, any resources or reference material?
>>2618194>Where is the crisis? In the communist/labor movement Singapore crushed. They kept the state structure because no opposition was left.
>>2618192Hearing Marxists talking about fascism and capitalism is like hearing a lib talking about the difference between aromantic and asexual. They know that these are two different things but because their methodological tool is limited when pressed to explain what exactly the difference are they just resort to "B is actually A but worse" which is not a satisfactory answer because we still have liberal capitalist states today that are objectively more brutal against proles than they are 60 years ago but is still quantitatively different from Fascism
>>2618194>Many of the workers are migrants from another country, like Malaysia, Philippines and other asian countries.This just makes it worse. Literal slave class of non-citizens.
>>2618196No idea which part of country he'd be from, but there're a lot of conferences I've read of
>>2618192>fascism is just early stage socialismYes.
>>2618200i agree with you, the nature of Fascism and Liberal Capitalism are very distinct.
Marxist nowadays can't tell the very difference between these two and how one leads to another.
>>2618199So? Don't provide a moral angle, provide something substantial, like South Korea, which has a whipping level of corruption and fucked quality of life. Or just agree Singapore is an exception to the rule. It is like a fairy tale where a benevolent man saves the country.
>>2618202Yeah, and that is the reality of globalization. What I am saying is that the economy developed before the migrant workers were such a substantial part of the economy.
>>2618213Provide more pixels, kek.
>>2618199Singapore had a legal order where they can ban any opposition once a Communist movement of a small form popped up. Lee alleged that a Communist conspiracy was infiltrating the church, or something along that road.
Singapore is probably going to become a tri-party state soon though, the opposition parties have become more popular. There is anti immigrant movement(against CECA in general) over there too.
>>2618219Many Communist countries in the past had a one party system, why is it bad?
The question is again the economic miracle along with a multicultural stable society, where Malay, Indians and other ethnic and religious communities were at each other's throat but Lee Yew didn't favor any population like Fascists.
>>2618208Yep. Traditional Marxism usually went into the 'fascism is capitalism that was anxious to preserve its dominance'. But that means that since capitalism today is not at risk of a proletariat revolution, then there cannot be fascism today, which is patently absurd. I would say that MAGA is unironically a proto fascist movement, for one. Neither does this theory explain why proto fascist movements sometimes failed, like with Bolsonaro in Brazil. Did Bolsonaro's fall meant that the bourgeoisie suddenly felt very secure about their power and decided to revert to normal capitalism? Makes no sense.
Again, i despise Dugin, i am a proud Dugin revisionist, but he actually understood the dividing line between Capitalism and Fascism. Capitalism puts the atomized individual as the supreme arbiter of reality, and everything else became flattened via exchange and capital into becoming an individual choice you take from a shelf in the market. This is our current condition now, where people pick identity and ideology from HoI4 Mods and twitter discourse, and the rise and fall of ideologies are determined by twitter algorithm and social media numbers (i know that my schizo ideology sound like this, but believe me there is actually a deeper reason behind my choice of identifying as a left wing Duginist)
The fascists deny this. The fascist would say that the individual is not a supreme arbiter of his own, but rather that the individual can only realize himself through Duty to a mythical aesthetic (most commonly some racialized destiny). You can only be a real person if you got a grenade shoved in your ass for the fuhrer and while your sister became a broodmother in some youth camp to produce more young nationalist.
And this is where Dugin lumped Fascism and Communism together. Because Communism also believed that an individual can only emerges (or rather reemerges) after a confrontation and destruction of the Other (Value Form). You can only be a real person if you are no longer are from the social relations you exist in, when "the Market" is no longer an abstract godlike form against which you are powerless, and this requires the *subordination of individuals into a greater historical destiny* which is the Historical Process. Both F and C attempted to go away from the Liberal conception of Individual Universality by grounding them to an Objective order- national destiny for fascism and Dialectical monent for Communism- and believes that only through subjection to these larger processes can an individual gain realizes itself
>>2618165Buying cars in Singapore is way too expensive. They have a CoE system where you pay millions to even get one. Singapore will execute you if bring weed above 10g, will jail you otherwise and cane you with visible marks on your back, no exceptions.
Their inequality is also terrible, unlike Malaysia, they all judge each other on the basis of money. Their country is also entirely empty, it's a giant mall, the citizens get subsidized(almost entirely) housing from the government, and they then proceed to rent it out to immigrants who have to wait for twenty years. It's not good.
There's not much culture over there, organizing for politics will get the government interested, and they'll proceed to try to bankrupt you financially. Their accent sucks, which is another thing, Singlish sounds retarded.
They're going all in on AI right, so they'll probably collapse in twenty years. They're the #1 supporters of Israel in SEA behind the Philippines, since Israel finances Singapore's military.
>>2618225Old Lee was definitely racist kek. This is a few of what he's spoken of. We have to owe it to him, though. But there is a lot of great man worship of him funded by the government itself.
Don't they beat people up with sticks for smoking weed in Singapore?
>>2618229Oh yeah, there is a reason why he was kicked out of Malaysia, forgot to mention. That was him and his party openly stoking racial tensions. That's if you believe their government though, they were kicked out because they'd win the election otherwise.
>>2618230Execution if you have quite a lot of it, infact.
>>2618229Lmao good post.
Whenever there are threads about Singapore, China, India, Iran, South Africa etc, I realise how ignorant the average Leftypoller is about these countries.
This would be fine if they were not smug, and argued indefinitely against people who actually are from these countries.
>>2618229Now we are talking, that is some fucked up ideas. Thanks anon, It also proves (I will check if these are real or not)how he just went along with the material necessity instead of going hurr durr muh race muh people route.
>>2618238ive observed a lot of people having no idea about India desu
>>2618230Yes. Imagine the punishment if you try to start a union.
>>2618240Yeah when the Ind-Pak conflict was ongoing, an anon was arguing with me, he thought that the indian army is made up exclusively of kshatriyas lmao.
Then i realised the guy just googled 'caste system', saw that the 'kshatriyas' are supposed to be warriors and deduced that's the indian army
Any discussion which is outside the USA, I do not take seriously here.
>>2618238>>2618240Tbh I have an idea of how India and South Africa are, but not Singapore as I never faced with the "What about Singapore? Checkmate Tankie?" rhetoric, until recently.
>>2618229>Expensive CarsThat is a consumer luxury problem I guess everywhere.
>weedNot a fan of drugs but ok for argument's sake
>judge each other on the basis of moneyOk, but not unique class discrimination is an age old problem.
>immigrants housingYeah that is something to look for as the country ages.
>interested governmentAuthoritarian things
>accentCan't comment on that, never heard it.
>>2618243And then what is your opinion on India anon?
>>2618165The best word to describe Singapore is sterile.
>>2618244Oh I know a lil bit Singapore becauee I visited the place when I was a kid and because people (and specially neolib economists) in my country swoon over singapore all the time. A bit less these days, it was more intense in the past.
>>2618248Lol why?? Is it really that boring?
>>2618247Looking more and more like they missed the bus forever.
They have closed their eyes on the mountain of backwardness in the country and now I am scared that the opportunity to actually become 'a superpower'is gone forever.
>>2618252Why? Their population is still young and it is a growing economy. Automation may hinder their growth but they will become something.
>>2618256>Automation may hinder their growth Lmao why would more efficient production hinder their growth?
>>2618228Hmm interesting to hear about your idea. Can you provide me a written pdf (by you) about your thoughts. I am very unironically interested.
Looks like a fake place, very similar to South Korea and Japan and achieving a high quality of life isnt that hard to do when you have only like 5 people living in it. To achieve that you only need a small portion of surplus value to be reinvested into infrastructure if you have no sanctions on you.
>>2618256Because then the cheap labour factors go away as developed and rich countries employ automation (like chinese dark factories) for production. And the Indian migrant situation is not looking good as more and more people migrate to other countries.
>>2618251Night life sucks. You can go there with kids and have a good time. The culture is weak except for really excellent architecture. They have their own Ohio which is Yishun. Few good spots:
>Kranji's War Memorial>Yueh Hai Ching>Pulau Ubin>Changi Chapel>Little India>Haji Lane>The Merlion>Kampung Glam>Arab St.Not a good tourist destination. Clarke Quay has a lot of pubs. Northern Singapore is almost entirely barren, but you can get to Johor without a visa for a few days which is a sick.
The Central region is great, the West is neglected. You can get out to Indonesia through a ferry/MRT to Batam.
Every single business and house is air conditioned. It got repetitive, tiring. The public transportation is amazing. The Casino is good too. It'd suck if you were poor over there, and I believe homelessness is illegal, and the homeless are all taken to shelters by force.
It's a concrete hellscape in a way. Most people socialize in the lower floors of the HDB's.
Tbh I wish I'd spent my money elsewhere, but the Hawkers are great.
>>2618193See
>>2618266Are there any historical or ancient cultural spaces, even museums will be enough?
What about street food?
>>2618165>strict neoliberal economyLand/housing though!
>>2618195Muh blood quantum blahblah requirements for getting citizenship are pretty common around the world, North and South America are the exceptions.
>>2618213I would like to ask William Gibson whether he can think of a country that has both Disneyland and the death penalty, and that in most regions looks much worse than Singapore or Disneyland.
>>2618275>Land and Affordable HousingTbh the population is so low, providing affordable housing is relatively easy but still does not discount the fact that it has a neo-liberal approach to business practice and no wish whatsoever to make a worker owned industry or collective.
>>2618285Don't know what is the obsession of /leftypol/ with Italian Fascists, and I don't want to know tbh.
Singapore is the le better Stalinland is something I am hearing for the first time.
>>2618297The population is low?!?! They have 6million people in 700km^2 ! That's super dense!
>All this achieved through a strict neoliberal economy
Ah yes, the neoliberal policy of 80% of the population living in strictly quotaed anf regulated government housing.
>>2618228Dugin says all that idealist crap because for him to admit that fascism is just another form of capitalism would undermine not just him but the foundations of the Russian bourgeois state (because the natural conclusion then is all capitalism inevitably leads to fascism so we need to overthrow capitalism to guarantee immunity).
>>2618299>>2618298As I said earlier housing is an exception and it is "relatively" small but the whole mode of production and the fact they have no inherent contradiction (atleast I can't find any) and even if they have they are living fine with it. There is no conflict of class and neither race or ethnic. That is why I conclude that Singapore might just be outside dialectical materialist progress of history. History has ended for them.
>>2618229Observations about ethnicities isn't necessarily racist, you know.
>>2618305>As I said earlier housing is an exception and it is "relatively" smallSpoken like a true petit bougie that lives in their dad's mansion and never suffered from housing insecurity. Having a bigger nationalized housing stock than fucking Red Vienna is hugely significant.
>>2618305>no contradiction Lmao ba sing tse go fuck yourself uyghur
>>2618307Do you lack reading comprehension or just dumb in general.
I am in no way denying that housing is a small achievement, just the population is not that big. Consider providing housing in Bangladesh. How are you gonna generate the capital. Out of Air?
Fucking read and answer dumb fuck.
>>2618308Give example or fuck off.
>>2618318You are an absolute moron
>>2618305>There is no conflict of class and neither race or ethnic.>discounts the riots in 1969 and 2012 by the Tamils and the Malays>most unequal society in Asia>>2618305>That is why I conclude that Singapore might just be outside dialectical materialist progress of history. History has ended for them.Tbh you're not wrong, but they can easily collapse.
>>2618306>Observations about ethnicities isn't necessarily racistI hate nationalists
>>2618319Hmm, I had knowledge about the 1969 riot but the 2013 one was not known to me and it also happened after 44 years since the last riot of 1969. At last something has come up.
There is contradiction indeed. Thanks OP.
I am sorry comrades, There are contradictions, history has not stalled yet, it will be interesting to see in the future how these get resolved.
>>2618358There's nothing nationalistic about that factual statement.
>>2618387Don't worry comrade, greater knowledge will help you develop your own framework for the future.
>>2618410>>2618387Upon researching more it made sense why Singapore society seems "peaceful".
The racial discrimination does exist and is a reality. But neoliberal economy policies bind it together.
>How?Neoliberalism influenced global migration binds the already rich upper class (not going by ethnicity) to use the lower class migrant population.
And the lower class migrants permit it because their origin country is comparatively a shithole and pay is good in Singapore. This two class are in a social contract, not push everything down the line. Bourgeois promises not to become full on fascists and the lower class promises not to become communists. The governmet is like a refree at this point.
But how many years will this contradiction go on, that is interesting to think about? And I genuinely fear this system where the labour class just accepts their fate (evident in western countries).
What are your thoughts comrade?
>>2618420Anon you might honestly be right. Similar situation in the Gulf coast. Dubai and Qatar being prime examples, the contradictions seem to hold them both together. Millions of Filipino and Indian immigrants over in both countries.
>But how many years will this contradiction go on, that is interesting to think about?I suppose until the ideology, fizzles out, or if the social class no longer sees a benefit in staying over there. As in, if there is an increase in the martial crisis(war, riots), and if there is an increase in the economic crisis(sanctions, depressions). Or, if the ruling ideology collapses, as in, a more unruly strain comes in and disrupts the class.
When do you think it'd collapse?
>>2618431I found an answer in China's recent endeavours . Recently China developed their own EUV prototype despite the sanctions on modern equipments.
Partly because retired ASML scientists of chinese-origin were invited back to their country, and they accepted because the material conditions are so good in China along with government grants. Until the migrant's origin country does not develop rapidly and in their favour, things will things will hardly change in MY OPINION.
After that history will tell.
>>2618420>This two class are in a social contractSocial contract theory is bunk liberal nonsense, fyi.
>>2618420neoliberalism is when you have state enforced ethnic quotas among your government housing units
>>2618464It is because of my lack of proper words, I beg your pardon. I know the labour class is following the self-interest and the bourgeoisie their own.
The social contract theory might be debunked but a nice word to explain the liberal word.
>>2618465Neoliberalism when state takes it hands off the mode of production and destroys any and every collective or social endeavor. So I don't what the fuck you mean by that.
>>2618464Are you autistic? He clearly isn't Hobbes.
>>2618252Sad to be honest.
LKY is and was the perfect Fabian, in the sense of the Fabian society rather than the Fabian strategy.
Dengism is just big Singapore under a communist party. (Rather than arguing about whether that makes Singapore based or China cringe, it's more useful to see how they've played the game, more interesting to speculate on whether China's trying to win it or topple the board in the end…)
>>2619183>>2619035>>2618472You can read about HOW "social contract theory" is bunk (from a Marxist perspective) in this very nice book that I am attaching.
>implying Americans/golden billioniods readhahaha
, still…. >>2618165>All this achieved through a strict neoliberal economySingapore is not neoliberal. Housing, transportation, energy etc are all contingent on the State (with some being entirely owned by the state). The Singaporean government economically hermecize the individual from the market by providing him with enough to survive.
In marxian terms, the gov protects the individual from some of the capitalist contradictions which exist.
>Lee Yew is practically worshipped by Neoliberal for not only his policies but also for his Anti-communist operations.Not really. He's worshipped by libertarians who don't understand how their economy works, ironically often not realizing that the """freedom""" loving Lee has had to create the biggest investment fund in existence and some of the most extensive social policies to guarantee said-freedom to individuals.
And more interestingly, he's also worshipped by illiberal asian countries (like China) for developing an undemocratic yet prosperous society.
>Marxist (atleast I haven't found any) can't point out to any contradiction plaguing Singaporean multicultural society.Singapore is a tax-heaven, depends on foreign labor work who seek citizenship, and is essentially fiscally limited on some enterprise to exist. What do you think happens if these enterprise disappear and labor source ?
>Does this economical path is the way to prosperity, as an alternative to liberal western ideology.No because it's contingent on certain criterias which can't be extrapolated to the entirety of western societies. It's the same reason as to why every european country didn't lower taxes like Ireland to prosper.
It's like saying that the gulf model can be extrapolated to european countries.
>Can he be refuted by Dialectical Materialism?Its existence is actually a pretty good example of the material dialetic given that the people there don't seem to be concerned for their democracy as long as their material needs are ensured.
Even more, its entire existence is predicated on an economic reality : that of having a tax heaven alongside one of the biggest social safety net to safeguard the population from immeseration
>>2618228Marxism can't explain fascism because fascism has "idealist" (and not material) cause.
Fascism is essentially a population forfeiting their liberal rights to safeguard their country from a percieved threat (immigrants, jews, sexual minorities etc). This is why fascism is fundamentally a reactionary right-wing regime. It doesn't try to change societies, but only to radically safeguard it.
>>2619486>Housing, transportation, energy etc are all contingent on the State (with some being entirely owned by the state).So its a socdem tax haven?
>>2619487Yeah somewhat but it's not democratic. So it's more of a social-tax haven
But most tax heavens like Ireland or Bahrein use the funds to redistribute to the population too so it's not entirely surprising.
This country is a prison
>>2619490It fits the traditional fascoid definition of fascism but im allergic to these apes defining anything.
>>2619566>It's a vapid shithole filled with a cattle-like population, devoid of any identity or intellectualism, but steel and glass is impressive to some people, apparently.This, it is entirely empty of any culture. It's disgusting.
>>2619569Wait ew you're a fash
>>2618297>Don't know what is the obsession of /leftypol/ with Italian FascistsObviously I cannot speak for the entire board but I always found the various Mediterranean fascists to be much more competent overall and with more of a mass appeal than there northern european counterparts and ergo much more of a problem in the longterm. The various fascists regimes in Portugal,Spain and Italy held onto to power much longer than NSDAP ever did and imho over here in burgerland ᴉuᴉlossnW-esque rhetoric about le nation being realer than race has much more potential than telling every single person that isn't a white evangelical they need to die.
>>2619566>>2619569> It's a vapid shithole filled with a cattle-like population, devoid of any identity or intellectualism, but steel and glass is impressive to some people, apparently.You described Canada with less of a homelessness problem. Great culture is built when artists have food and shelter.
>>2619599>Great culture is built when artists have food and shelter.Yes, but those are not the only conditions necessary. At least Canada has Rush. Singapore is just a literal temple of consumerism and little else.
>>2619486>Not reallyOh you have no idea. He is like the "Communist bashing strict but good father" for them.
>its entire existence is predicated on an economic realityTrue
>>2619579>more competent overallIn which ways?
> le nation being realer than race As long as I have seen "le nation" is the starting point, it only rolls down the hill.
First
>our state is in danger, protect it from outsidersthen
>our state is in danger, protect it from insidersAnd then
>kill minorities>kill women>kill anyone who is not "US"And this defination of US gets narrowed down as time goes by.
>>2619841>In which ways?Other than lasting longer in power, I would say unlike the attempt at carving up eastern europe into lebensraum they were all much more successful in there colonial ambitions and two of them survived well past the second world war.
>As long as I have seen "le nation" is the starting point, it only rolls down the hill. I would agree that there a tendency to go from scapegoat to scapegoat(especially if said states aren't at war) but imho the biological racism of the northern european fascists movements makes them less flexible and not as good at recuperation. In a US context I just think it would be easier for a multiethnic empire in decline(Like spain or portugal) to embrace a doctrine where anyone can be in the ingroup as long as they meet some randomass woowoo-vibes based criteria on what it means to be a real american™
>>2618175>There are other port cities also. It is not a special one.It really is special though. Like 80 percent of global shipping squeezes through that trade corridor in the straits of Malacca where Singapore happens to sit. It was already an important entrepot at independence, and it was originally established precisely because the British recognized the area's strategic value.
>>2618175>not just a financial capital like Hong kong.You realize Hong Kong also had a lot of industrial enterprise and there was massive sweat shop and textiles industry there, just like in Singapore? Both benefited from permissive low tax environments with barely any regulation of capitalist enterprise, extremely cheap labor force that was highly disciplined by authoritarian regimes, strategic trade locations that facilitated trade with East Asia / China?
>>2618234Malaysians were also stoking tensions though. They wanted a Malay and muslim supremacist government, which is what they have today I think. Honestly, Singapore has its flaws but it was much better being independent than sticking with Malaysia, which is an Islamic shithole in my crude opinion.
>>2620285Yeah I knew that, and It could not sustain it after China's opening up, so it shifted towards finance. That is why I said Singapore "seems" to be in a better position compared to Hong Kong.
>>2620299It is an Islamic Ethnocentric Country, a literal hellhole. Asian countries (mainly south east asian and east asian) tend to embody extreme types of discrimination, segregation and hierarchies. An anthropological test must be done on this phenomenon.
>>2620346Check out Maldives. By law, only a Muslim can become a citizen. So it always has by definition a 100% Muslim demographic.
>>2620346Yeah Malaysia is a literal apartheid state, not kidding.
>>2620346>It is an Islamic Ethnocentric Country, a literal hellhole. Asian countries (mainly south east asian and east asian) tend to embody extreme types of discrimination, segregation and hierarchies. An anthropological test must be done on this phenomenon.Is it because of insecurity? Or because having more outsiders would weaken the states influence and function?
>Bumiputera, literally translates as "son of the land" or "son of the soil". In Indonesia, a related term, "Pribumi", is used, although in Malaysia it more broadly denotes indigenous peoples.
>Following the 13 May incident in 1969, the government implemented the New Economic Policy (NEP), a set of measures granting extensive social, economic and political advantages to bumiputera communities.
>Although originally presented as a temporary solution to interethnic tensions, the policy has remained in force for decades and has been described as a form of institutionalised racism.
It seems, these are effects of Asian hierarchical racist/fascist ideology, present in many many east and south east asian countries. They became institutionalized as time went by.
>also look at Lee Yew's Quotes
Now I would like the opinions of others. Did Lee Yew has just shifted the hierarchy from Malays to Chinese in Singapore. Any resources on that?
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