/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2827308
>the reactionary conservatives of the AfD are more revolutionary than the american and european 'left', who are in fact, reactionary
<THIS IS WHAT ZIGGERS ACTUALLY BELIEVE
Get your head blown up by an FPV drone you retarded nationalist.

>>2827992
>You are anti-communist.
as should anyone, it's a failed and flawed ideology that doesn't even belong in europe in the first place

>>2828059
marx was from europe though

>>2828059
Communists were the only reason Europeans had a good life and now that they're gone everything is getting worse since the rich no longer even need to pretend that their system is better. You're an idiot.

IMAGINE living under a monarchy. poor euroids are further away from communism than even the United states

>>2828060
only passing through
>>2828068
places communists touched are notoriously worse off than the rest of the continent except maybe for bavaria where they only got a 2 year stint

>>2828078
theres a reason why marx applied to immigrate to texas

>>2828074
Monarchies in Europe are all aesthetics and larp. That's why there are no republican movements, cause nothing would really change.

>>2828090
>places communists touched are notoriously worse off than the rest of the continent
<the places that were gleefully looted bare by the capitalists in a plunder frenzy when soviet union fell are worse off than the places that plundered them
shocking, truly

>>2828157
if you ask some of those people they might tell you it was soviets who looted everything they could lie their hands on

oh you;re implying that evil european capitalists robbed former soviet union?

1. that's not really true
   
2. that's hardly europe

>>2828165
>>2828160
>>2828157
ban this dumb porky bot already ffs

>>2828090
are you from the butthurt belt? be honest

>>2828172
denying western europe was way better off than eastern europe even before 1991 is beyond ridiculous

>>2828176
that's because western europe was better off than eastern europe before 1939. eastern european economies are still coasting off the industry and the infrastructure built during the soviet period. state capitalism and dirigisme were actually excellent ways for poor countries to get out of poverty in the latter half of the 20th century and a lot of them replicated the soviet model

>>2828183
>eastern european economies are still coasting off the industry and the infrastructure built during the soviet period
which ones? name the countries and the enterprises

>>2828188
all of them and all of them. most of the heavy industry and most of the infrastructure. listing off the particular enterprises would be pointless. the main point is that these countries were turned from backwaters filled with peasants into urbanized, primarily industrial economies in a relatively short period of time

>>2828202
you are wrong on all accounts

1. after fall of east wall every country had to reorganize it's economy, very few of the communist era enterprises exist to this day as most of them were run sub optimally and would (and did) tank in a market economy
   
2. in soviet space this perhaps was avoided by privatization by the emerging oligarchy but once again this is irrelevant when we're talking about europe
   
3. eastern europe is no russia where everyone lived exclusively in wooden hovels and walked on all fours, these countries has civilization before the war and regardless of how destroyed there were they would end up rebuilt either way so you can't put the rebuilding down as some sort of communist triumph
   
4. especially when countries untouched by the antihuman ideology rebuilt a lot more rapidly

>>2828176
>western europe was way better off than eastern europe even before 1991
that's what brainwashed westoids and liberal butthurt belters actually believe.
It was not though. Western lower class was in fact way worse off than anyone over here. Not even taking the USA into account, which was worse than western succdem Europe in pretty much every aspect.
But maybe you can enlighten me: I've never been to Poland before 1990, in fact i've never been to Poland at all, but i've visited Czechia & Slovakia pre 1990 and it was not much worse than the DDR. I've always wondered why butthurt belters are OBSESSED with the west? What is the reason for slavs going such lenghts to humiliate themselves in front of westoids? It's totally beyond me, not even rightoids do that here.

>>2828255
have you been to brd tho?

>>2828261
My grand parents visited our relatives in the Rhineland many times and my dad was due to his job as main engineer traveling all over the world even to the USA and other capitalist countries as representative on trade fairs before the fall of the wall. He and my grandparents had more than enough opportunities to leave the evil grey communist stasi dictatorship, but they didn't. Myself i've been to the BRD in Dec. 1989, as well as in Denmark in 1990 (also have relatives there). I had high expections for the BRD because i had this image from west German TV in my mind. West in reality turned out underwhelming, to say the least. I liked McDonalds tbh however at that trip i saw homeless people and junkies for the first time in my life. Then all the scammers and smug adventurists that came here to bring us "freedom" and teach us "democracy" after 1990 but literally ruined everything made me hate the "west" forever.

>>2828221
>these countries had civilization before the war
Even Poland was an heavily agrarian country, and that was the most developed country in all Eastern Europe who mostly grew economically because of the land they got from germany, unironically

>>2828328
western poland was a sea of ruins, everything of any value got disassembled and sent to soviets
if you want you can look up and compare pictures of 60s gdansk or wroclaw and 50s nagasaki and you just won't believe which one got nuked
on a sidenote lower silesia and lausatia were the most provincial and poor german lands before the war

>>2828255
The GDR was the wealthiest country in the entire Soviet bloc in terms of GDP per capita, and even under that metric it fared less than France and west Germany and most of Scandinavia.

It’s time for people here to stop with the cope and admit that Eastern Europe under the iron curtain was genuinely a shithole, especially by the 1970s, whether it’s in terms of sub-par living standards (like, engineers making less than those of the west was a common talking point) or environmental degradation due to economic competition with NATO countries. You have to wonder why did the 1989 revolutions happen at all if things were so good on the eastern side of the Berlin Wall.

>>2828373
While I mostly agree, a revolution is not something that happen because of comparatively lower standards of living, or else there would be one every day in a different country, those revolutions happened mostly because of foreign interference.
Any other interpretation is painfully naive, people have lived in shitholes for centuries without revolting.

>>2828460
Interesting since I always thought that the revolutions of 1989 were genuinely grassroots for the most part (especially in Romania, the only Soviet bloc country that saw its communist leader executed by a popular uprising) barring western intelligence’s supports for anti-communist dissidents movements like Solidarnosc in Poland.

Makes you wonder if the communist governments in Eastern Europe could have survived past 1989 or even 1991 without Soviet support, as Gorbachev decided to turn away from the interventionist policies of Brezhnev.

>>2828467
without soviet support they wouldn't even have survived past 1945
>>2828460
>people have lived in shitholes for centuries without revolting.
not in europe

>>2828373
>GDP per capita
you do understand how worthless this metric is to define the average worker life quality in a socialist society?

>it fared less than France
having a colonial empire to exploit help for sure

>and west Germany
getting the big bucks from the US while not paying any reparation obviously make things easier than paying heavy war reparations without getting anything because your side got wrecked by the war.

>admit that Eastern Europe under the iron curtain was genuinely a shithole
I think its time for you to admit you're simply parroting cold war era propaganda with 0 actual insight in the matter

>like, engineers making less than those of the west was a common talking point
yes ofc, because if you focus on raising the life quality of everyone, you dont bribe an upper middle class with more surplus at the detriment of the workers having the dangerous and physically straining jobs like the coal miners. Thats the crux of the issue, the elites and intelligentsia werent getting a disproportionate amount of the surplus like in a capitalist society, and they're the ones with the most social weight (which is why many happily betrayed communism)

>environmental degradation due to economic competition with NATO countries
and nato countries didnt degrade their environement? the fuck are you even saying now

>As the President of France, Emmanuel Macron also serves as a co-monarch—specifically a Co-Prince of Andorra. This title is inherited from medieval French kings and is shared alongside the Bishop of Urgell in Spain
just delete europe at this point bruh

>>2828484
>you do understand how worthless this metric is to define the average worker life quality in a socialist society?

Still better than GDP. It should also be understood that while admittedly economic growth in the east bloc was the same for both blocs or even higher than the west bloc between the 1950s and 1960s, afterwards growth began to slow down in the east such that Eastern European countries trailed behind their western counterparts like Austria by the 1970s and 1980s. The situation was such that most communist governments borrowed foreign currency en masse due to importing western tech and resources to compensate for their technological backwardness and thus had to notify their creditors at the Paris and London clubs.

Speaking of which, Austria and much of Scandinavia also exceeded the eastern bloc despite lacking an empire. Inb4 Marshall plan, the USSR also aided the development of the eastern bloc just as much the USA did in the western bloc

>I think its time for you to admit you're simply parroting cold war era propaganda with 0 actual insight in the matter

Just because the eastern bloc was and is a better place to live in than modern Sudan doesn’t mean that the eastern bloc was not genuinely poor. Fact is, if it wasn’t for the Berlin Wall being fully sealed, then east Germany would have continued bleeding skilled labor to west Germany and thus the GDR could have never ascended.

>yes ofc, because if you focus on raising the life quality of everyone, you dont bribe an upper middle class with more surplus at the detriment of the workers having the dangerous and physically straining jobs like the coal miners.

Dunno man, you seriously think the an engineer, an AI startup, a CEO, a janitor, a coal miner, a Twitch streamer, a lawyer, a politician, a farmer, etc… should all have the same income?

Do you see where I’m getting? The inefficiency of the central planners, the flaws of a command economy as applied to large countries, and the rigidity of the economy (as shown by how few factories ever closed despite the arrival of new tech) effectively undermined the economic prospects of the eastern bloc. Otherwise a black market to meet consumer goods, usage of foreign currencies, and economic stagnation wouldn’t have happened in the eastern bloc.

There’s a reason the term “shortage economy” to describe those states exists in the first place.

>and nato countries didnt degrade their environement?

The heavy emphasis on heavy industry at the expense of other sectors combined with inability to keep up with contemporary technological progress led an increase in pollution in places like Czechoslovakia. Conditions were worst in Northern Bohemia, which was a part of the so-called ‘triangle of death’ that also included South-East East Germany and South-West Poland, but the effects were also felt beyond the region in which the pollution originated.

Also, the western bloc had no equivalent to the Mayak disaster and Chernobyl meltdown.

I’m in Germany, so a quick question for the krauts here: Is it true that if the pimp at the average brothel tells me that they have:

• Scandinavian women, I should assume they’re all from the Baltics, Russia, Ukraine or Belarus?
  
  
• Italian, Spanish, Greek and Portuguese women, I should assume they’re all from Romania and the Balkans?
  
  
• German and Dutch women, they’re actually Polish, Czech, Hungarian and Slovakian?
  
  

Apparently Germans still associate Eastern Europe negatively which is why pimps have to lie about the origins of the prosties in their brothels.

>>2653642
There were elections in Malta Yesterday, here are the results
The Labour party (Center-left) has won 36 seats, keeping a majority in the parliament for the 4th time in a row.
The right wing Nationalist party has won 31 seats, ending up second.
However, the gap between the two has shortened, with the Labour Losing 3.3% of their vote share, with the Nationalists gaining 2.9%
The rest of the voting went to third parties that didn't win any seats. Two left wing one, Momentum and the Greens, with respectively 1.3 and 1.5% of the votes, the People's party, a conservative party got 0.6. And Imperium Europa, a party whose aim is to unite europe from the Channel to Vladivostock to save the white race, has gotten 167 votes, but usually in eu elections they get more, around 7000 votes.

>>2828718
>between the 1950s and 1960s, afterwards growth began to slow down in the east
so after revisionists started to fuck with the planned economy, something that would only get worse. There certainly was a part of mismanagement, and a part of spending too much on weapons (but then again, they did have good reason for wanting the weapons). But none of this was catastrophic, and the main problem compared to the west were the limits on trade because pretty much all of most the developed states were in the west (which obviously favor the west bloc economy, although it didnt favor the west colonies and client states populations), preventing the access to the most advanced tech and to big capital investments

>most communist governments borrowed foreign currency en masse
I dont think you can say most, although a few of the eastern bloc did but Im not sure how important that was. I dont know that much about it, but that certainly seems more of specific mismanagement than an inherent problem

>Austria and much of Scandinavia also exceeded the eastern bloc despite lacking an empire
austria was an industrial powerhouse and scandinavia had both developed industry and a large amount of resources even before ww2. As with much of the west/east difference, the big one is the starting point

>Inb4 Marshall plan, the USSR also aided the development of the eastern bloc just as much the USA did
absolutely not, ussr was far from being as rich and developed as the USA, and was fucking wrecked in the war while the US helped to be able to actually have customers for its massive intact industrial capacity

>doesn’t mean that the eastern bloc was not genuinely poor
poorer for sure, but the poor were also living a lot better than the poor of the west, and no, the USSR, czechs or GDR were not "poor". And the poorer countries started as such, it was not the fault of the economic management.

>then east Germany would have continued bleeding skilled labor to west Germany
the main reason for the berlin wall was both sabotage and the fact your didnt want the skilled people who had a free education and a heavily subsidized housing to go work on the other side

>seriously think the an engineer, an AI startup, a CEO, a janitor, a coal miner, a Twitch streamer, a lawyer, a politician, a farmer, etc… should all have the same income?
no, and its not what I have said. A coal miner for example, should have a pay comparable to an engineer, because while less educated, their job is a lot worse. A twitch streamer, who have neither education nor hard work, should have a way lower pay. "Politician" isnt really a job, but bureaucrats (like a CEO) typically should be between a farmer and an engineer. Pay should be a function of both education and work arduousness

>The inefficiency of the central planners, the flaws of a command economy as applied to large countries
which is just wrong. It worked very well for a significant time (even better than capitalist economies even), proving the core of the problem is not "command economy"

>rigidity of the economy
now that was a problem, but its mismanagement, not an inherent problem to command economy

>There’s a reason the term “shortage economy” to describe those states exists in the first place.
yes, because of cold war propaganda. You know using price to limit consumption is a rationing mechanism, just more unequal than the ones practiced in socialist countries. People had way more social services and lower prices for food or housing, despite the countries being less developed

>The heavy emphasis on heavy industry at the expense of other sectors combined with inability to keep up with contemporary technological progress
plenty of places in europe, africa and america were wrecked (and still are being wrecked today) by industry, its inherent to it no matter the tech, you cant have advanced economies without it, and the east wasnt especially worse in this regard, the west just had a lot of polluting resource extraction outsourced to colonies.

>triangle of death
didnt know about it, googling the term bring me to various places, including italy…

>Mayak disaster and Chernobyl meltdown
three miles island was pretty close, they released a bunch of radioactive material in the air to avoid a meltdown. And those are accidents involving the dangerous new tech, yes industrial accidents happen, but I dont see how this is related, if anything theres less incentive to hide pollution in a command economy (although it can still be a problem if the people in charge dont care), and ussr had plenty of very interesting ecological initiative very early.




cockshott make interesting analysis of planned vs market economies both in TANS and how the world works, you can take a look at an excerpt
https://monthlyreview.org/articles/crisis-of-socialism-and-effects-of-capitalist-restoration/

Exposing Europe's Far-Right.

>>2659740
Based
>>2664845
Not ones that matter
>>2667665
I wonder if this was done in preparation for a possible trade war with China for the Industrial Acceleration Act/Made in EU; if anything at least they aren't as retarded as Trump
>>2670422
> Bourgeois
> Reactionary
> Reactionary with red paint

>>2830075
>putinbad
t radlib imperalist

>>2830075
Russia funds and helps nazis in Europe while invading countries to "de-nazify" them.

>>2830092
and? there can never be socialism until the imperialist war in ukraine ends. for every country involved in it

>>2830253
The third world must acquire nukes at all costs. Or else we are held hostage by the most sadistic pedophile sociopaths on the planet.

>>2830253
waste of time we need to produce our own bombs not hold someone else's stock

Europe staying perfectly in line with washington, more at eleven
https://apnews.com/article/migration-brussels-deportation-detention-27f04759acf5f9f4df73862c561a609b

>>2830340
Its an american attempt to try to block Europes own nuclear ambitions. American weapons would give false sense of security.

Are Euro cops this nasty?
https://xcancel.com/emkenobi/status/2060932437736096027

Like, the Dutch cops had no qualms with throwing a pregnant woman to the ground. If it wasn’t for gun control laws in Europe, then the Euro cops would probably be more brutal than American ones.

>>2831187
All cops are nasty, especially in france, they might be worse then usa cops

>>2831197
in France they're trained by Israeli instructor that basically train them to see the public the same way they see palestinians,I'm not joking

>>2831231
bro we dont need israeli, we had colonial police long before israel even existed and gave counterinsurgency and police repression of popular movement expertise to various dictatorship throughout the 20th century

so this means no more late night shitposting for euroanons?

>>2831274
Unless those late night shitposts are really funny stuff being done at those data centers.