/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2682947
Few people are truly pathological contrarians anon, it's more of an accusation to insinuate that X person's perspective is all feels and no reals. A person can "be a contrarian" without holding reactionary positions. It's just a vibe bro.

>>2682949
>What makes Class an outlier and central to the revolutionary perspective is that it is not an identity but purely a condition.
literally what the meme was pointing at and meant by liberal identity politics, woman can just de-indentify themselves and it will all change then ?, this shows a complete desconection for actual analysis of class and how it envelops everything the classes in question are down to it's varying members.

>>2682934
Is that the communist vtuber?

>>2682951
>A person can "be a contrarian" without holding reactionary positions. It's just a vibe bro.
exceptional and outside of the curve cases are meaningless, almost every reactionary is a contrarian in behaviour when it comes to question but not every contrarian is a reactionary, entertaining people carrying this behaviour is stupid.

>>2682956
I'm sorry anon but I am having trouble understanding what you're trying to say here. Can you reframe the response or add some more context?
>woman can just de-indentify themselves and it will all change then ?
Sex-and/or-race based social stratification exists materially but Sex and Race (ethnicity) are not class conditions in themselves.
>>2682961
The problem here is people tend to finger all kinds of people who disagree with the current thing as Contrarians and therefore it's rather intellectually bankrupt to put everybody who has a critique of the current thing under the same umbrella regardless of the substance of their positions.

>>2682189
trvke. marx bless china.

>>2682925
nor did >>2682917

>>2682959

nazi fetishist tranie

>>2683004
The problem with this meme is that, assuming it affirms both posits, to affirm the first reifies the intersectional perspective as something inherent while it is functionally nothing more than a metaphysical attempt to relegate class to the category of identity. From that assumption the second only affirms that capital affects all oppressed identities adversely.

>>2682917
Class reductionist is also liberal identity politics.

Materialism is inherently intersectional, and anti-capitalism without materialism is liberalism.

>>2683048
If materialism is inherently intersectional then what use is intersectionality

>>2683060
It's just a principal within it. More than one material condition makes up someone's overall material conditions. Like it's obvious on paper but if you see someone tunnel visioning on a specific factor, or disregarding a factor because it's not always as relevant / prominent due to another factor, you can can point out that it's intersectional.

>>2683063
>if you see someone tunnel visioning on a specific factor, or disregarding a factor because it's not always as relevant / prominent due to another factor, you can can point out that it's intersectional.
That's wrecker behavior and you should go to gulag

>>2681555
The trouble is that people confuse base and superstructure. Class is base and the state is superstructure. The family (marriage/prostitution) is base and biological sex is superstructure. The town-country contradiction is base and race is superstructure.

As an example, transmisogyny is really more about sex trafficking than anything else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_sex_workers has some sources. The numbers of 24% to 75% across international studies is absolutely stupid.

Feminism is bullshit because feminists never talk about shit like telework, estate taxes and nationalizing the tenement halls and real-estate investment trusts. It's largely the structure of the household which structures the oppression of women.

>>2682879
Most people today rely on medicine in some form or another

>>2683045
>the most abstract and idealist argument imaginable
blud nobody's buyin that one

>>2682921
Call it however you want, the trvth is none of those issues has the same potential to abolish as class struggle.

>>2682959
Nah that's someone from neocities: https://hidwehproject.neocities.org/

The vtuber is futakuchi mana. They both have the black and red color palette tho.

Second wave feminism was created to obfuscate class and focus on construction of identities of isolated individuals who have nothing actually in common as their identities had to be created by academics who are all from different places and not a organic working class environment

It's really quite simple. Whenever you see some postmodern bullshit like this ask yourself "Does it seek to divide or unite the working class against the bourgeoisie?" Intersectionality divides the proletariat on racial, cultural and gender lines instead of uniting us as a political force, so you can throw that shit in the trash.

>>2683147
Also check Plekhanov's Role of the Individual in History, where he tears apart some narodniks talking about some similiar stuff

>>2683136
wow she is just like me

>>2683040
ill make a new post on /lgbt/ clearing some things up mayb when i have the energy for it. after making that thread i just didn't bother reading any of the replies honestly .. idk if i should make a new thread for it or use the original thread lol. i also wrote a small zine to summarize some of the ideas because ive gotten a lot of ppl complaining abt mucho texto. stuff like that sort of kills my motivation but u gotta do what u gotta do

>>2683147
Even in the purely liberal usage of it, the point of intersectionality is to break a prior division by saying that there's no such thing as someone purely privileged or unprivileged within a class.
Intersectionality as liberals have conceded to it is coming to the conclusion that class is primary.

Like you're describing what pre-intersectionality idpol was like, and attributing those problems to intersectionality when the whole point was to steal a bit from materialism to fix that.

>>2681555
>gay, and retarded
Jeffrey Epstein is responsible for the creation of /pol/, and it shows by the degenerated level of discourse in his soulless fascist aesthetic forums
>why is intersectionality wrong?
No investigation, no right to speak. SHUT THE FUCK UP
lots of historical quotes in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

>>2681560
>"getting fired because your boss is racist/sexist has nothing to do with class struggle"
<In DeGraffenreid v. General Motors (1976), Emma DeGraffenreid and four other Black female auto workers alleged compound employment discrimination as Black women resulting from General Motors' seniority-based system of layoffs. The courts weighed the allegations of race and gender discrimination separately, finding that the employment of African-American men in the factory disproved racial discrimination, and the employment of white women in the offices disproved gender discrimination. The court declined to consider compound discrimination, and dismissed the case. Crenshaw said that in cases such as this, the courts have tended to ignore Black women's unique experiences by treating them as only women or only Black
"some of our workers sit down and others use vehicles to travel so we aren't bigoted against wheelchair users" Porky logic

>>2682636
>The only ones who go on there are ACP national socialist losers who are no different from the regular stalinists on here,
LaRouche cultists are anti-Stalinist wreckers who have done more damage to defraud the proletariat than every identity politics woke HR consultant has

>>2682934
>when they discuss things such as microaggressions, they hyperfocus on "othering"
<In her 1851 "Ain't I a Woman?" speech, Sojourner Truth spoke from her racialized position as a formerly enslaved woman to critique essentialist notions of femininity. She highlighted the differences between the treatment of white and Black women in society, saying that white women were often regarded as emotional and delicate, while Black women were stereotyped as brutish and subjected to both gendered and racialized abuse. These observations were largely dismissed by many white feminists of the time, who prioritized the suffrage movement over addressing the intersecting oppressions faced by Black women
(soy PMC Marxists lecturing their slaves) "there's no such thing as a microaggressions! There's no such thing as 'othering' people, it doesn't matter!!!"

>>2683063 All the factors youre talking about are defined by the base anyways. The fight against racism, homophobia, transphobia etc. is fruitless and will lead to temporary gains at best unless it's connected to the class struggle.
>tunnel vision on a specific factor
Thats exactly what the intersectionalists are doing, dividing up the struggle into smaller, more individual fights, instead of focusing on what unites us all – class. Also it leads to class collaborationism. You can fight alongside your lesbian CEO for queer rights, but in the end as a bourgeois she'll still fuck you over

>>2683162
No part of dialectical materialism is about people being purely priviledged or opressed, Marx and Engels themselves wrote a lot on non-class forms of opression. Intersectionality is trying to fix a hole that wasn't there in the first place, simultaneously weakening the workers movement

>>2683147
trvke
>>2683162
>the point of intersectionality is to break a prior division by saying that there's no such thing as someone purely privileged or unprivileged within a class.
"privileged" and "unprivileged" is such a cucked substitute to erase the reality of ownership of or dispossession from the means of production. The privilege narrative is built on the foundation of bourgeois democratic ideology and has no basis outside of it.

>>2683098
Most insurances don't cover procedures they consider elective

>>2683165
>there's no such thing as a microaggressions! There's no such thing as 'othering' people, it doesn't matter!!!
the problem is not that it does not exist, or simply that it doesn't matter, but rather we must recognize where its heightened emphasis comes from i.e. the desire to be integrated within a social order that must be itself discarded. the problem with "black capitalism" isn't that black people are not discriminated against or that this discrimination does not matter, but that it is founded on a logic of integrationism. they do not think "this is but another reason why the entire system is shit" but rather "if only mammon could would lend me his ring to kiss!". at that point why do they not just become socdems? and indeed many do ..

that is the issue i was there highlighting. if you read my post properly, you would see that i am not even rejecting intersectionality outright. rather it must be subject to critique and brought to its proper place

>>2683169
>unless it's connected to the class struggle.
It is.
>dividing up the struggle into smaller, more individual fights, instead of focusing on what unites us all – class
No, that's what was happening before intersectionality was introduced.
>>2683175
>No part of dialectical materialism is about people being purely priviledged or opressed
Yes, because once you look at things materialistically you see that everything is multi-factoral, aka intersectional. Nothing exists in a vaccum.
>>2683183
>"privileged" and "unprivileged" is such a cucked substitute to erase the reality of ownership of or dispossession from the means of production.
Yeah it's pretty dumb, and by adopting a bit of materialism through intersectionality, libs are one step closer to giving up the privilege nonsense.

>>2683204
>No, that's what was happening before intersectionality was introduced.
This is libel and erasure. There was authentic and very broad solidarity amongst the whole of the revolutionary proletarian milieu worldwide long before before the bourgeois trojan horse of intersectionality was introduced.

>>2683214
vidrel at 8:21 btw

>>2683214
That was among proles with a materialist understanding of stuff. The lib proles had some weird beliefs about how "privilege" works that intersectionality helped break them out of, priming them to eventually move to materialism.

The problem with intersectionality can be summed up in one image. tl;dr it's the opposite of unity LITERALLY

And it's not just hurr durr similar names, the logic of intersectionality IS that of intersection. When you hear liberals talk about the intersection of identities it's not black people AND trans people AND women (union), it's black trans women (intersection). Each category that you tack on narrows down the group you're talking about to be smaller and smaller. The focus is placed precisely on those struggles that are specific and unique ONLY to people within a particular subgroup. For example, black trans women face a number of specific forms of bigotry that combine racism, misogyny, and transphobia in a unique way. Hyper specific issues like that do matter and are a problem, but they can also be traced back to the larger constituent parts. To be radical is to grasp at the root, to recognize the symptoms and trace them back to the cause.

Intersectionality orients our thinking in precisely the opposite direction, away from broadening and generalizing our understanding and toward cataloguing all the many specific symptoms. This is not in and of itself a bad thing to do, but it's not productive as a tentpole of your radical organization because there are simply too many permutations of identity groups and problems to deal with them all individually instead of prioritizing the root causes. If we put an org's deliberation in computational terms, we have a combinatorial explosion. And worse, it aggravates points of difference that weaken solidarity in the group. Whenever you cleave people off into tighter identity subcategories, you put focus on the differences they have from the others, and in the context of intersectionality which views differences as inherently hierarchical, you inject judgment against the group considered to be oppressors in a given identity category. This is a classic cointelpro tactic of downplaying common interest in favor of tensions and differences.

Taken to its logical conclusion, intersectionality would divide people up into the smallest combination of identities possible, until everyone is by themselves. It is, in the last analysis, an individualistic ideology that centers personal lived experience and grievance while sidelining systemic analysis to get at the root causes of these problems and transform society as a whole. "The smallest minority on Earth is the individual."
– Ayn Rand

>>2683136
Do you think she would be open to speak (virtually of course) at an ACP meeting? She was retweeting Hinkle lately.

>>2683218
>Intersectionality helped break them out of, priming them to eventually move to materialism.
Huh. I've never seen that, rather the opposite where intersectional ideology hijacks class movements with prior insurrectionary potential and causes them to implode.

>>2683218
>The lib proles had some weird beliefs about how "privilege" works that intersectionality helped break them out of
How is intersectionality not rooted in privilege politics? The basis of it is pointing out the way people's identity groups stack up on the axes of privilege like in OP's image.

>>2683221
based af my uygha 100% with you but I would have left out the ayn rand quote at the end

>>2683232
The Ayn Rand quote is there to emphasize the commonality that intersectionality has with lolbertarianism.

>>2683233
I know fam it's all good it's just too easy to take out of context for readers with lesser attention to nuance. It's my editorial instinct buggin' out, forgive me.

>>2682353
>You're parents paid for your bottom surgery and hormones
The vast majority of trans people never have bottom surgery, for largely financial reasons. Hormones are cheap and mass produced, because they are mostly used by cisgender people. By far the biggest consumers of hormones and gender affirming care in general are cisgender people. It's only trans people that western societies want to ban from accessing it.

>>2683231
It sorta reads to me like how people reduce hegel to "thesis, antithesis, synthesis"

Like, if you can grasp that it's multi-factoral, then you can grasp that some factors might not be linear, and if privilege–something linear–is composed of things that are non-linear, then perhaps privilege as a concept is flawed.
>>2683228
Is it because they lose sight of class being primary, or because they have some undealt-with issues that cause it to crumble over simple shit? When it comes to movement-ism it seems like it's usually the latter, and that's why actually organizing instead of putting your hope in movements is better.

Orgs can handle the intersectional aspect of materialism without shitting themselves.

>>2682728
>Fat people are not oppressed
This is an easy statement to make, but the majority of fat people by far are proletariat, who are oppressed. Furthermore the systemic root causes that cause fatness in a population strata are almost entirely economic, and related to material conditions such as
a) Access to healthy food. Many areas of the US are "food deserts", and in places like this, less healthy food is cheaper and more economical for poor people. Fresh fruit and vegetables are a luxury. In some towns all there is is a gas station to buy food within walking distance.
b) Urban planning. In these areas unless you own a car you cannot buy food anywhere near where you are forced to live due to poverty. Because there are no grocery stores. Only gas stations and convenience stores.

Do these factors explain it all? No, but they strongly correlate.

So yes, many, even if not most, fat people are oppressed as proletariat, and their fatness is caused by their class position primarily

>>2682148
>Appealing to conditions that only applied to at most 5% of the population
Fixing serious problems in material conditions for 5% of the population isn't worth it? Maybe you're missing the other half of the equation which is the cost of fixing those conditions, and the resultant ROI. For many people in these groups, the cost is minimal to society but the ROI to the group and individual in those groups is tremendous. So this blanket statement you made is meaningless, you also provided no details whatsoever like which specific 5% group you are talking about and why their problems don't matter enough to bother fixing

>>2682853
1. She's Jewish
2. She transitioned after becoming a billionaire
3. Even so, she's the only trans billionaire
>>2682822
She transitioned after becoming famous.

>>2682879
In my country, HRT costs only 5000₽ per month (it would be even cheaper if I ordered hormones from AstroVials). Most transhumanists don't have SRS, and those that do got it at a huge discount or even for free.

>>2682407
They're calling it the most 2016 video of all time. Pretty funny how outmoded most of this is, the shockwaves of gamergate and that era of internet politics so clearly visible. Who still cares about "third wave feminists" or BLM and anfems lol? Meanwhile rightoid idpol currents are stronger than ever.

I miss Batko. Incidentally I heard rumors on here he's a fascist now, don't know how true that is tho, seems hard to believe

>>2683447
i thought it was pierre du dank who became a fascist

>>2681555
>le wheel of privilege
I wonder how does police violence in the USA fit into this. Because a black male has higher probability to be murdered by cops than a black female

>>2683443
That's not cheap for a lot of people and relies on the exploitation of the third world to get that price point.
I'm also not just talking about bottom surgery, I'm talking about laser hair removal, facial feminization surgery, tit jobs, etc.
Those that were able to get discounts for that did so from being a vtuber, some sort of PB, labor aristocrat, or some other class that enables them treats.