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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Transitions between modes of production are of an uncertain nature. They are not always brought about by revolution, reform, or planning, but sometimes by a combination of all 3, or by blind historical forces operating over several centuries.

The transition from primitive communism to slavery, and the transition from slavery to serfdom were neither brought about through the planning of the ruling class, nor through revolution, but through unplanned historical changes over several centuries. The notion that modes of production always (rather than merely sometimes) transform through deliberate revolution is ahistorical projection of the bourgeois revolutions forward in history. What history shows is that modes of production do exist and do change, but whether they change through revolution, reform, or in a totally unplanned way over a long period of time, is up to local material conditions.

uncontroversial truth nuke

Also there are hybrid modes of production during the transition, such as the co-existence of serfdom and slavery in early feudal Europe, before the abolition of European slavery was complete. You can say one is rising while the other is declining, but there is a point during that process where they basically exist side by side in more or less equal prevalence.

>>2689712
> there is a point during that process where they basically exist side by side in more or less equal prevalence.
several points, depending on where you look. That point happened in some places earlier, and in other places later. The Iberian peninsular kingdoms had house slaves and field serfs as late as the 12t century.

>>2686845
>primitive communism to slavery,
The Agrarian Farming Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
<Darmangeat repeats Testart’s thesis that the development of wealth is linked to food storage. He affirms that there is an intermediate stage between societies without wealth and class societies. In such societies, there may be slavery, for example, but such exploitation remains marginal. It is not yet what society revolves around. In the sixth chapter, he examines how wealth modifies male domination. For example, it makes the customs of ‘bridewealth’ and ‘blood money’ possible. Human lives become exchangeable, slavery possible, and women all the more the property of men. Often, only men can dispose of the product of women’s labour. That is not to say that the status of women is comparable to slaves; the degree of their subordination depends on other factors such as whether a society has patrilocality or matrilocality. There is also a contingent dimension to gender relations, as shown in the example of the Kara of Tanzania, where patrilocality does not prevent relatively egalitarian relations. Nevertheless, certain correlations can be made. For example, there is a correlation between the economic power of women and warrior peoples where the men travel further away for their activities.
<For Darmangeat, the situation of women deteriorates not so much with the advent of class society but rather with that of intensive agriculture, pushing male labour into agriculture and relegating women to domestic labour, eliminating their possible counterpower.
https://marxandphilosophy.org.uk/reviews/21710_primitive-communism-is-not-what-it-used-to-be-at-the-origin-of-male-domination-by-christophe-darmangeat-reviewed-by-erwan-moysan/

Absolutely correct, and why MLs are delusional retards. They believe that taking command of the capitalist political apparatus somehow leads to the creation of new relations of production.
They literally have it backwards. Revolutionary praxis needs to be turned on its head. New relations of production emerge through the development and application of new technology to organization, from which a new subject emerged who will take on the revolutionary role of overturning pre existing governmental institutions.
But nah MLs wanna sit around and larp as if we are in a backwater pre capitalist state, disregarding anything to do with actual communist productive organization, as if we still need to "develop the productive forces" like it's early 20th century Russia.

>>2690558
so we should just sit around and be good little slaves then
the bourgeois will invent a way out of this mess, surely

>>2690558
Go Jack off to Kautsky in the corner.
His legacy is getting his ass kicked by Lenin.

>>2690596
Feudal and later absolutist monarchs and nobles in europe were forced to adopt socially destabilizing technologies to avoid immediate conquest by their neighbors and get in on colonial plunder. Capitalists will do the same, the markets cannot stand a monopoly for long. Communism will happen when it’s a necessity and technological development allows it, not a moment before.

>>2690600
Lenin’s legacy is Chinese slop filling up walmarts and the houses of hoarders

>>2690601
so just wait and hope for some new amazing technology that will usher in communism?
what more do we need? an infinite ai powered treatmaker?

>>2690625
Honestly? Yes

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>>2690558
I think temporary revivals are hard to avoid, and I commend the paris commune and major ML revolutions for at least creating violent shocks to the capitalist system, if not dealing the absolute death blow.

>>2690634
and if your infinite treatmaker is not possible, what then? will you just give up and accept that communism was just never meant to be and you must be exploited forever?

>>2690659
I guess, it’s not like I can apply to become a member of a tribe that practices primitive communism

i am very sceptical of the historical materialist outlook, since capitalism itself was built on the back of imperialism and slavery, including compulsory wage labour or imprisonment for vagabonds who would resist their employers. it doesnt seem too different than what has always existed, with the historicisation of capitalism as inherently "unique" being flimsy. the romans had technology and some say were even on the verge of industrial revolution, so why arent they "modern" but we are? the US had slaves in 1776, so why arent they "ancient"? at a certain point, it seems arbitrary.

>>2686845
Correct
>>2690558
Too far
>>2690634
Silly
>>2690643
Correct
>>2690668
> the romans had technology and some say were even on the verge of industrial revolution,
this is goofy. Hero of Alexandria invented a very primitive steam engine but there was no social apparatus for mass manufacturing that steam engine, nor was there electricity or the internal combustion engine. The Roman economy was heavily reliant on slave labor, which limited the incentive for automation or the development of labor-saving technologies. The need for mass production tools wasn’t as pressing. he Roman economy was agrarian and slave-based, focused on agriculture and conquest rather than large-scale manufacturing or trade. Industrialization often arises from a shift towards commerce, banking, and capital investment in production. Rome's political structure, with constant shifts in power, military conflicts, and eventual decline, did not provide the stable environment needed for long-term innovation and investment in new technologies. Also important is the fact that the Romans had an ugly and cumbersome numerical system with no zero or placeholder that was horrible for doing math. They were not anywhere close to being on the verge of an industrial revolution.

>>2690665
your treats will be taken away one day and you will quickly change your tune

>>2690695
The ruling class knows better than to take treats away, capital even more so

>>2690686
>The Roman economy was heavily reliant on slave labor, which limited the incentive for automation or the development of labor-saving technologies.
this is drivel. the invention of the cotton gin in 1793 led to increased demand for slave labour in the US, not a diminishment of it. the slave trade in the US only grew from the introduction of "labour-saving" devices (which as j.s. mill says, and marx concurs, is an extremely contradictory neologism). i have also previously shown that slave labour was cheaper than the wage labour of that time (as a lifetime capital investment), making the abolition of slavery a political, not economic, measure (with the abolition of slavery in the US and UK being very costly, not profitable).
>Roman economy was agrarian and slave-based, focused on agriculture and conquest rather than large-scale manufacturing or trade
grain trades also existed in the roman empire
>Industrialization often arises from a shift towards commerce, banking, and capital investment in production.
yet capitalism was supposed to exist from the 16th century onwards, centuries before the industrial revolution?
>They were not anywhere close to being on the verge of an industrial revolution.
neither were the british in 1500. or do you disagree?

>>2686845
Should the focus go from creating a new mode of production into how to create an egalitarian society in the limits of capitalism and developing productive forces?

>>2690701
Part 2 of the video you posted seems more pessimistic on the claim that the Romans were on the verge of industrial revolution

>>2690705
I don't know. I just think that the transitions between modes of production are more variable than one might realize at first.

>>2690700
you must be joking, they are taking them away one by one as we speak
the rate of profit must increase, so your treats must go

>>2690706
only due to a lack of funding, not because of a lack of historical necessity. why did the dark ages "regress" civilisation, if things are linear? i am highlighting the contradictions of the enlightenment view of "progress" which marxism dogmatises.

>>2690710
> i am highlighting the contradictions of the enlightenment view of "progress" which marxism dogmatises.
Does it dogmatise? I'm not so sure.
>why did the dark ages "regress" civilisation, if things are linear?
in marxism, things aren't linear. even when things regress, they don't regress linearly. Like if society collapsed in nuclear war tomorrow, things would "regress" but the resulting society wouldn't look like medieval serfdom or roman slavery. It would be a new kind of primitive society.

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>>2690710
>the enlightenment view of "progress" which marxism dogmatises.

<Marxism-Leninism is not a dogma, it is a guide to action and a creative theory. So, Marxism-Leninism can display its indestructible vitality only when it is applied creatively to suit the specific conditions of each country. The same applies to the experience of the fraternal parties. It will prove valuable to us only when we make a study of it, grasp its essence and properly apply it to our realities. Instead, if we just gulp it down and spoil our work, it will not only harm our work but also lead to discrediting the valuable experience of the fraternal parties.


Kim Il Sung, On eliminating dogmatism and formalism and establishing Juche in ideological work, Speech to Party Propagandists and Agitators December 28, 1955

<To my mind, the so-called “socialist society” is not anything immutable. Like all other social formations, it should be conceived in a state of constant flux and change. Its crucial difference from the present order consists naturally in production organized on the basis of common ownership by the nation of all means of production. To begin this reorganization tomorrow, but performing it gradually, seems to me quite feasible. That our workers are capable of it is borne out by their many producer and consumer cooperatives which, whenever they're not deliberately ruined by the police, are equally well and far more honestly run than the bourgeois stock companies.


Engels, Letter to Otto Von Boenigk In Breslau, August 21, 1890

<What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges.


Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875

<Our theory is a theory of evolution, not a dogma to be learned by heart and to be repeated mechanically. The less it is drilled into the Americans from outside and the more they test it with their own experience […] the deeper will it pass into their flesh and blood. When we returned to Germany, in spring 1848, we joined the Democratic Party as the only possible means of getting the ear of the working class; we were the most advanced wing of that party, but still a wing of it. When Marx founded the International, he drew up the General Rules in such a way that all working-class socialists of that period could join it – Proudhonists, Pierre Lerouxists and even the more advanced section of the English Trades Unions; and it was only through this latitude that the International became what it was, the means of gradually dissolving and absorbing all these minor sects, […] Had we from 1864, to 1873 insisted on working together only with those who openly adopted our platform where should we be to-day? I think that all our practice has shown that it is possible to work along with the general movement of the working class at every one of its stages without giving up or hiding our own distinct position and even organisation […]


Friedrich Engels, Letter to Florence Kelley Wischnewetsky, January 27, 1887

>>2690714
capitalism isnt progressive and it doesnt present us with unique historical circumstances, besides technical ability, which does not arise due to any law of historical necessity.
>>2690717
is capitalism progressive?

>>2690710
>only due to a lack of funding
the sequel to the video you posted lists a lot more reasons than just lack of financing: the lack of a class of entrepreneurs, no true mass production, no economic incentive, a rigid and inflexible elite education system that looked down on tinkering as a hobby for slaves and commoners, poor communication networks, slower trade networks, caution towards innovations which could destabilize the social order… there's both superstructural and base reasons for the lack of industrial revolution in the Roman empire.

>>2690718
it is historically progressive relative to feudalism and serfdom. Like isn't the point of "progressive" in Marxism that it's not used the same way liberals use it to mean "good developments that make people better off" but rather any development which sharpens contradictions and moves history forward?

>>2690719
sure, but a "steampunk" rome was always potential to its project, and did not require the protestant reformation to awaken "the beast" of industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
>>2690720
>it is historically progressive relative to feudalism and serfdom
why? marx's answer will shock you. in capital vol. 1, ch. 32, he claims that primitive accumulation (e.g. the confiscation of independent property from peasants and appropriated by capitalist farmers) broke up the "mediocrity" of the age, to give us modern strife, where the majority of people become wage slaves rather than artisans. its as if i stole your home and told you that this was good because it will make you stand up for yourself and fight me. like all those preachers who say that "God works in mysterious ways", even the secular priesthood has its mystical excuses.
>development which sharpens contradictions and moves history forward
i dont think "history" is a real object. do you? "history" appears to be a religious idea found in the greek poets (homer, hesiod) who rattle on about a "golden age", identical to the hindu satya yuga, or the christian eschaton. the fulfillment of history is entirely providential. it is a manner of prophecy, like so many astrologers that forewarn of the "sign of the times".

>>2690735
>i dont think "history" is a real object. do you? "history" appears to be a religious idea
it's a social construct but I don't think it's a religious idea. The difference between a totally supernatural notion with religious baggage and a social construct is pretty big. Like history is an intersubjective, evidence-based reconstruction of mind-independent events. While a religious idea like salvation of the soul is a metaphysical / theological reality claim completely independent of all evidence…

>>2690600
What does anything I said have to do with kautsky? Retard ml larper just throws out names like he knows what he's talking about.

>>2690720
>it is historically progressive relative to feudalism and serfdom.
is it?

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>>2692848
"historically progressive" is not a synonym for "things getting better" in marxism like "progressive" is for american liberals

>>2692886
Marx was wrong, capitalism is an evolutionary dead end

>>2692893
>Marx was wrong,
>capitalism is an evolutionary dead end
Marx was wrong only about some things, but right about others.

Capitalism itself has changed so much since Marx's time (contrary to what the most Orthodox Marxists on here say) that it can hardly be called an evolutionary dead end. We are on the "4th industrial revolution" and the very category of commodity production is deconstructing itself in real time. Automation has reached such a fever pitch that it has become necessary for the bourgeoisie to treat the most cutting edge software commodities as rented services rather than as one-time purchased objects you can permanently own and dispose of as you please. This is not a refutation of Marx’s method but a vindication of it, provided we understand his analysis as a critique of historically specific social relations rather than a frozen blueprint. The commodity form mutating rather than simply dissolving. What we are witnessing is the intensification and abstraction of commodity production rather than its transcendence.

When software ceases to be sold as an object and becomes a subscription, what disappears is not commodification but the illusion of alienability. The bourgeoisie has discovered that in the age of digital reproduction, ownership is less profitable than controlled access. The commodity is no longer a thing but a regulated flow. Value is extracted not primarily at the moment of exchange but through continuous rent-like capture. This is not post-capitalism, it is capital becoming better at enclosing time itself.

Automation, likewise, does not abolish the law of value, it problematizes it. If living labor is the substance of value, and capital systematically expels labor from production, then capital undermines its own foundation. Yet instead of collapsing, it compensates through financialization, intellectual property regimes, artificial scarcity, and the social-mediafication of everyday life. Instead of disappearing, the factory has diffused into logistics networks, data centers, and algorithmic management systems. Instead of being abolished, wage labor has been fragmented, surveilled, and globally arbitraged.

From a historical materialist standpoint, this represents a new configuration of the contradiction between forces and relations of production. The productive forces of automation, digital networks, machine learning tend toward abundance and near-zero marginal cost. The relations of production (private ownership, profit maximization, wage dependence, etc.) impose artificial scarcity and exclusion. Subscription models, DRM, and cloud dependency are juridical technologies designed to restrain the emancipatory potential of the productive apparatus.

Instead of being an evolutionary dead end in the sense of stagnation, capitalism is dynamic, adaptive, bust still crisis-prone. Its resilience lies in its capacity to reorganize domination at higher levels of abstraction. But precisely because it socializes production on a planetary scale while privatizing its outputs and endangering the environment, it deepens the antagonism between collective labor and private appropriation.

The critical task is not to declare capitalism obsolete by fiat, nor to fetishize its technological novelties as signs of transcendence. It is to analyze concretely how class power is reconstituted under digital conditions: how data becomes capital, how platforms function as quasi-feudal tollbooths, how precarity disciplines labor even as productivity soars. Only then can we assess whether these transformations stabilize the system or sharpen the contradictions that point beyond it towards a new socialism.

>>2693206
>The bourgeoisie has discovered that in the age of digital reproduction, ownership is less profitable than controlled access.
And for how long is that? Genuinely useful programs like Photoshop and AutoCAD continue being cracked and i doubt online services like Office365 are used much outside certain enterprise niches. Where imperialism forcefully created new markets for commodity production, subscriptions seem more like an incestuous reshuffling of labor value, to raise profits in the short term. Reports of smaller and mid-size companies being turned off by rising costs even support the hypothesis, that it cannibalizes long-term profits. I think the nearest analogue would be stock markets and fictitious capital, but even those serve a greater societal function of directing capital. What incentives are there for this model to proliferate and why should they take before the current relative profitability of IP collapses alltogether?

>>2692886
then what does "progressive" actually mean?

>>2693273
It all traces back to the Hegelian formula "What is rational is actual, what is actual is rational", meaning capitalism supplanted previous modes of production, because it actively proved superior. Despite its propensity for crisis and other internal contradictions, the capitalist world economy is the most stable within the current historical moment.

>>2693282
this is just "might makes right" logic.
what if when things get worse its not due to a higher internal reason sorting itself out?

This idea that material conditions determine everything has been debunked many times already. It’s too harmful to the communist movement too. The implication is we must endure all injustice because it’s not the time yet.

>>2693289
This is where the Marxian insight, that new technologies, more specifically means of production, give rise to these changes and vice-versa, comes in. Capitalism has driven many areas to their breaking point in terms of productivity, yet the areas where it doesn't are precisely being obstructed by commodity production. A mode of production doing away with all of the inefficient market logic, rent-seeking and ruthless competition would be superior; the hope is, that it won't also require the same hyperexploitation of the people and the environment as capitalism does.

>>2693306
you are confusing materialism with determinism

>>2692886
>"historically progressive" is not a synonym for "things getting better" in marxism like "progressive" is for american liberals
yeah "historically progressive" actually should be synonym for "things get worse" since only fascism grows out of capitalism

>>2690668
>>2690701
if anything, the carthaginians were in a better place to industrialize early than the romans were. they were the naval power based on commerce, like the UK. Still, it's an alt-history fantasy and was nowhere close to happening.

>>2693404
but was there anything "necessary" to the industrial revolution as it emerged? i simply posit its contingency. we could have had ancient atlantean civilisations as far as im concerned.

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>t.

>>2693407
>but was there anything "necessary" to the industrial revolution as it emerged?
Short answer: Yes.

Read Capital volume 1, Part VIII: Primitive Accumulation (Chapters 26-33) for the long answer to your question.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch26.htm

On this topic, does anyone have any short readings/lectures about the intensification of serfdom that occurred in Eastern Europe as """feudal""" bonds in the West decayed?

>>2693922
Marx had some notes on that

Primitive Communism is not a MoP. Modes of production are defined by the combination of the Relations of Production and the Forces of Production. Primitive Communism had no class relations and thus lacked extraction of surplus, key aspects of relations of production. So the transition from Primitive Communism to Slave MoP is rather the transition into a class system, of course there was no revolution when the prior system had no social class to perform that.

Revolution is not just "the lowest class overthrows the exploiting class", Marx was quite clear that the modern Proletariat is the only revolutionary working class in history, the one which will actually have the opportunity to liberate all of humanity. Prior shifts in state formation were between slave owners and owners of the Colonia, the latter being more politically dominant changed the superstructure accordingly. The Feudal MoP with surplus extracted via rent or tax was not overthrown by the various peasant revolts of the 1300s to 1500s but rather by the revolt of the Landed Gentry who by the 1500s functioned more like merchant capitalists and were organizing rural areas through enclosure and whatnot.

>>2693955
Good point.

>>2693962
Based on history since Marx, I think it is it is the socialist bureaucratic intelligentsia, not the proles, who overthrow capitalism to establish socialism with national characteristics. In the final confrontation, it will be the global proletariat who overthrow the bureaucratic intelligentsia to establish communism. I think Socialism is more than just a smooth transition into communism. I think AES shows that there is still room for conflict. There is a reason that during the cultural revolution the toiling masses, peasants, workers, students, and soldiers, were pit against the reactionary party members and socialist intelligentsia by Mao.

>>2692841
Kautsky is the natural consciousness of the western leftoids, it's passed down to you through cultural osmosis just like your hatred of the USSR, you don't even know you're a kautskyist because you don't need to, just like the average petty booj doesn't need to read proudhon to independently reproduce proudhonism simply by speaking for their class interests

>>2694030
Not the same anon but I don't really thing post-1991 critiques of the USSR are comparable to Kautskyism. Kautsky's main crime against Communism was supporting WW1 and bourgeois nationalism instead of revolutionary defeatism. He was criticizing the USSR as it was being born. Retrospective critiques of the USSR after it collapsed are of a different character and not a blind reproduction of Kautskyism. Especially in the age of multipolarity where you have this sort of dual hypocrisy where all the western leftoids demand a sort of universal revolutionary defeatism but don't actually fight their own government, and everyone else keeps saying actually no bourgeois nationalism is fine now as long as it's anti imperialist bourgeois nationalism. Neither of these competing paradigms are Leninist revolutionary defeatism on the eve of WW1.

>>2694105
By the time Kautsky went over to social chauvinism, his position on class struggle had likewise morphed into that of a liberal reformist:
>For the moment we must deal with the main point, namely, with Kautsky’s great discovery of the “fundamental contrast” between “democratic and dictatorial methods”. That is the crux of the matter; that is the essence of Kautsky’s pamphlet. And that is such an awful theoretical muddle, such a complete renunciation of Marxism, that Kautsky, it must be confessed, has far excelled Bernstein.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/common_liberal.htm

Speaking of, I've always wondered how it was possible for someone like Plekhanov, a master of philosophy and Marxist theory, to fumble so hard when it came to political action.
It bothers me that correct ideas don't necessarily translate to correct praxis

I guess it sorta mirrors kautsky

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>>2693894
but capitalist conditions (e.g. the concentration of land to expropriate the peasantry in order to summon mass wage labour) is not at all synonymous with industrialisation, since marx places the rise of capitalism in the late 15th century, while the industrial revolution occurs in the late 18th century. marx applies no necessary causation in this process, so you need to go back to the drawing board. further, modernity is not synonymous with enlightenment, since witch hunts only began after the protestant reformation (1517-) and continued well into the 17th century. keynes comments on the superstitious rubbish which occupied isaac newton in his spare time, for example, decoupling scientific and technical advancement from reason. marx actually comments on this, stating how the freedom of the press fabulates more than informs, such as we see with social media. so i would again be extremely cautious in your historical determinism, which wrongly attributes "progress" to history, and in a eurocentric fashion. the late marx actually surrenders to this verdict in a reply to a russian admirer, admitting that what he was analysing was not history in general, but western europe in particular. you can read it here (1881):
<In dealing with the genesis of capitalist production, I have said that at its foundation lies “the radical separation of the producer from the means of production” […] It has as yet been radically accomplished only in England … But all the other countries of Western Europe are going through the same movement […] I have thus expressly restricted the “historical fatality” of this movement to the countries of Western Europe.
https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/ni/vol08/no10/marx-zas.htm
giving emphasis to this shows its utter contingency.

>>2690686
yep, their mathematical knowledge was underdeveloped, their commercial technology was underdeveloped (none of the financial instruments developed in indian/arab worlds then refined by europeans), and they also lacked proper metallurgy to create steam engines.
you are just plain wrong >>2690701

>>2694254
>plain wrong
how? explain.
i am right that technology increases demand for labour, that rome had grain commerce, and that the industrial revolution was centuries after the start of "capitalism".

>>2694244
>is not at all synonymous with industrialisation, since marx places the rise of capitalism in the late 15th century, while the industrial revolution occurs in the late 18th century.
British industrialization was the culmination of centuries long processes. Enclosure began in the 16th century, for example. Agricultural improvements accumulated over time, beginning as early as the innovation and spread of the heavy iron plow to Northern Europe, which increased agricultural yields in those areas and making urban civilization possible. You had the horse collar, iron horse shoes, the 3 field system, greater adoption of water mills, the invention of wind mills, etc. etc. All of this stuff consistently improved agricultural yields over time.

>further, modernity is not synonymous with enlightenment, since witch hunts only began after the protestant reformation (1517-) and continued well into the 17th century.

What do you even by modernity here? The Witch hunts were a pan-European phenomenon, first of all. They were found in Protestant and Catholic countries alike. And, in fact, they can be interpreted as signs of modernity because they were often coordinated by early modern states, and were highly legalistic affairs. Prosecutors went to pains to weigh evidence, and the most economically developed countries (e.g. the Dutch Republic), had shorter periods of witch hunting as the ruling elite became increasingly skeptical that palpable legal evidence could be found to nail down the guilt of witches, even if they still believed witches existed. Jurists at varying points also recognized that people were abusing accusations of witchcraft to settle scores, family feuds, or were seeking to punish social outcasts.

>>2694269
>>2694274
>All of this stuff consistently improved agricultural yields over time.
And I should add, supported the growth of the urban clusters that became the basis of the industrial revolution in Northern England

>>2694269
I don't know about your technical argument, but a lot of the innovations to create a self-perpetuating industrial revolution were simply not there, as well as the other very peculiar conditions in the 18th century that made industrialization unique to the UK.
Like I said, the metallurgy wasn't there. The Romans had various metallurgical factories for armor that I am aware of, but they weren't even close to manufacturing the quality of steel that early modern Europeans could.
Nor did the Romans ever use coal. Coal use was widespread in England because the entire country had been deforested in by the late medieval period. Northern England (Newcastle) provided the coal to the rest of England. It was the increasing demand for coal that led to the need for primitive engines to pump mines, which were extraordinarily inefficient. Those were only invented in the late 17th and early 18th century (Thomas Newcomen) and were only practicable because the coal mines they were used at provided the very fuel to power them. James Watt took Newcomen's designs and improved them in the 1760s to create a proper steam engine and the rest was history. And besides, if we are thinking locomotion, rails were not invented until the 15th century by German miners. It wasn't until the British innovated and converted wooden rails to fully cast iron in the 18th century that you can have a railroads be feasible, instead of just human or animal-powered rail.

So, where do you see that kind of intellectual apparatus, social milieu, and various technological convergences and so on coming together in the Roman Empire? There were tons of slaves as cheap labor, and what wasn't slaves working on plantations was primitive peasant farmers. Where was the incentive to innovate there? We know Spain and Britain produced a lot of metal during the Roman Empire, but to my knowledge that was all very primitive and driven by slave labor. There was a fair amount of Roman engineering, but it wasn't really mathematical in nature and more about standardization, and spamming familiar technologies like arches and road building to knit together an empire.

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>>2694274
>Agricultural improvements accumulated over time, beginning as early as the innovation and spread of the heavy iron plow to Northern Europe, which increased agricultural yields in those areas and making urban civilization possible
the iron plow was invented in 1794, 100 years after the steam engine. thats why i say your history is confused.
>horse collar, iron horse shoes
invented over two milennia ago. you are just repeating modernist fables that before capitalism we were all poor and sick, living in shacks. we weren't. we became more poverty-stricken after the enforcement of capitalism.
>What do you even by modernity here?
the era subsequent to the "middle ages", often seen as beginning with the renaissance, leading into the reformation. its this period where capitalism is also said to begin.
>>2694275
did urban living not exist in ancient times? the very term "polis" ("state") comes from considering the city as the basis of developed social life, which aristotle in the 4th century BCE sees as expressly teleological, the same way the "nation state" is seen as developing from the city-state, from the time of the reformation leading to absolutism, to the "patriotism" of bourgeois revolution. xenophon and aristotle also regarded land as the basis of the wealth of society (the same as the physiocrats of the 18th century), showing continuity in their economic conception, which for most of the world, had not advanced up to that time.
>>2694280
>Where was the incentive to innovate there?
necessity is not the mother of invention; thats my point. there are a few geniuses, a lot of midwits and some idiots. tesla was not driven by greed, yet was still industrious. if you gave funding to the teslas of rome, they would have also made the internet, given enough time to work.

>>2694280
Remember, industrialization is only possible by harnessing the trapped energy of hundreds of millions of years of dead biomatter that ultimately derives from the sun in the form of coal. You cannot really do industrialization by burning wood and charcoal. At the same time, the Romans had no incentive to use coal cause most of Europe and Mediterranean basin wasn't deforested yet.

>>2694284
>the iron plow was invented in 1794, 100 years after the steam engine.
Are you thinking of the steel plough? Because I have this in mind:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carruca
>The carruca was able to turn over a furrow and it gave an opportunity to utilize the heavier soils of Northern Europe, as well as providing greater drainage; overall an important technological advancement for the medieval agricultural economy. Its use required cooperation among peasants because few would own enough oxen to pull it. The scratch plow which preceded the wheeled plough had been ideal for the light sandy soils of Southern Europe, and continued in use in various places, in England, on the continent and also in the Byzantine Empire. The scratch plough tended to create square fields because the field was ploughed twice, the second time at right angles to the first. By contrast, the carruca was most efficient in oblong paddocks. Because this pattern conflicted with traditional ownership arrangements, the carruca was probably most often used when breaking uncultivated ground.
>thats why i say your history is confused.
I think that was my first post in the thread.
>invented over two milennia ago.
Are you sure…?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_collar#Europe
>Following the introduction of the horse collar to Europe and its use being clearly evident by 1000 AD,[35] the use of horses for ploughing became more widespread. Horses work roughly 50 percent faster than oxen. With the collar, combined with the horseshoe, the heavy plough, and other developments in the agricultural system, the efficiency of the European peasant farmer in producing food increased, allowing further societal development in Europe.[36]: 10  The surplus in food allowed labor specialization as farmers could change their occupation and focus on other skills, such as the purchase and selling of goods, resulting in the emergence of a merchant class within European society. The horse collar was one of the factors in the ending of the feudal system and transition from the Middle Ages.[37]: 55 
>we were all poor and sick
Obviously not true. But with less agricultural efficiency and poor transport systems, you simply cannot sustain large healthy populations.
>often seen as beginning with the renaissance, leading into the reformation.
These kind of happen together, but in my mind it's easy to see that these periods all blend into each other and overlap in various ways, with reformation currents going back as far as Wycliffe in the 14th century and the Renaissance extending into the early 17th century, and modernity being a result of cumulative changes taking place in Europe until coming to maturity in the late 18th or early 19th centuries…

>did urban living not exist in ancient times?

Yep, the urban civilizations could be sustained either in areas with rich agricultural hinterlands or very good trade links, or both. And they were always centers of innovation but clearly there was some sort of stagnation in science and urban societies in late antiquity were not capable of producing the innovations needed for an industrial breakthrough. The closest civilization I have heard able to make such a technological break was Song China, which had extensive coal use, iron production, mechanization etc.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/ppx472/why_did_industrialization_under_the_song_dynasty/

>>2694296
>did urban living not exist in ancient times?
cont.
I mean to say though that, you have the long "agricultural revolution" of post-Roman Europe creating the ability to sustain large populations in Northern Europe. That includes all the agricultural advancement I laid out above, alongside maritime technology that also made it also possible to ship grain and plantation goods to Europe and allowing whole countries to specialize. You already see this in the Dutch Republic in the 17th century; it had practically imported all of its grain from the Baltic (namely, from Polish-Lithuania) to support its urban population. Meanwhile, that freed up its own population to either urbanize or to specialize in specialized agricultural produce like dairy, cheese, and beer. Same happened in Britain in the 19th century, where foreign grain started to overtake British grain as the main source of calories in the diet of the working classes. I'm also not getting into the canal building and turnpike building frenzy of 18th century Britain, which massively reduced inland shipping costs for grain and coal and innovated the financial mechanisms that would come to fund railway building in the 19th century.

>>2694296
>carruca and horse collar
okay, so we're still going back centuries before capitalism, which i wouldnt see as momentous of the industrial revolution, or it is at least a cause as the great pyramids of giza, in their technical mastery.
>But with less agricultural efficiency and poor transport systems, you simply cannot sustain large healthy populations.
thats why a population is supposed to find equilibrium with the wealth it can consume. theres no inherent beneft to a larger pool of labour except to a slave master.
>reformation, renaissance
but notice how these events are understood. renaissance means going back to the pagan past. reformation means going back to the original faith. the meaning of history then loses its linearity. if the enlightenment arises from the ancients, then it is the ancients who were enlightened, not us.
>some sort of stagnation in science and urban societies in late antiquity were not capable of producing the innovations needed for an industrial breakthrough.
well, the emergence of the roman empire was an act both of political supremacy and political instability, so we can see how the priorities of power shift according to ruling class interest, which is at least a primary cause.
>>2694303
>feeding grain to sustain large populations, concurrent with the diminishment of labour which builds capital
yes, i agree, but i dont see this as any different to a slave economy. marx even notes how the working day for field workers was virtually unchanged in its schedule from feudal times, til the 19th century. so if we create equivalence between capitalist wage labour and slavery, then economic conditions at the base cant be said to determine technological innovation, which is why proposing a political explanation is more plausible.

>>2694303
>xenophon and aristotle also regarded land as the basis of the wealth of society (the same as the physiocrats of the 18th century), showing continuity in their economic conception, which for most of the world, had not advanced up to that time
Economic thought in general was pretty stagnant until maybe the 18th century. That is true. But the facts on the ground were a different matter than the first attempts of the 18th century physiocrats to model how economics worked. Also, I'm pretty sure the physiocrats were just one theory among several circulating in the 18th century, even if they were the first self-styles economists who tried to apply mathematical laws to the economy. But even in the last bit you can see how they already departed from aristotle or xenophon…
>necessity is not the mother of invention; thats my point.
Not always, but it absolutely helps. Archimedes was a genius, among many brilliant ancient engineers and mathemeticians whose works we have lost or who never disseminated their ideas, but clearly they were not enough to do much to move the needle forward. History shows us that slow continuous improvements in techology, that aren't attributed to the work of a single genius, are what drove history forward. It wasn't until the industrial revolution that you actually see the manufacturing of knowledge and innovation for its own take through institutions like labs and universities really take hold and become economically sustainable through the funding of states and corporations. Before that, it was much more hodge podge and unsystematic.

>>2694310
>okay, so we're still going back centuries before capitalism, which i wouldnt see as momentous of the industrial revolution, or it is at least a cause as the great pyramids of giza, in their technical mastery.
I do get your point. But I am saying that the post-Roman period is characterized by a centuries-long accumulation and dissemination of agricultural practices that made an urban civilization in Northern Europe possible. That really is important for the story of industrialization, because industrialization did not take off in the Mediterranean, but the coal rich north. And I mean to say that those early medieval technologies is just the first in a series of innovations, that culminated with greater improvements in the 18th century with canal building, massive land drainage and in the UK, enclosure, new plough types (I think you were thinking of the Rotherham plough), and better animal husbandry.
>thats why a population is supposed to find equilibrium with the wealth it can consume. theres no inherent beneft to a larger pool of labour except to a slave master.
Yeah, I suppose I mean, that when industrialization came, with steam powered mills and massive factories, the subsequent explosion in urban centers which resulted could sustain all of the new wage laborers in the cities. It simply couldn't have been supported any earlier.

But to your argument, you can make the argument that tropical commodities, harvested through plantation slave labor (arguably 18th century "proto-factories" ), were also essential to the industrial revolution in itself. Sugar is extremely calorie dense and easy to ship. It was a luxury item, but at a certain point it literally gave the pure distilled calories for industrial workers and intellectual workers of the 18th and 19th centuries. Coffee also played the same role in speeding up intellectual thought, and it was another tropical commodity harvested by African slave labor.

>>2694316
And to add to my argument, "geniuses" can be mass produced clearly. It is purely technological and social. The Greeks and Romans had poor writing utensils, poor media to write on (papyrus, paper was only invented in China and spread from there), very annoying writing conventions (no spaces between words, no capital letters, no punctuation marks, all of this was invented by scribes/monks during the early Medieval period and disseminated during the Carolingian Renaissance across Europe). The speed of knowledge dissemination was slow before the printing press made mass production of written material possible. Without masses of written material you cannot have mass literacy, which increases the probability that a genius will arise out of the populace. And without certain ideas about the natural world, which were refined in the Early Modern Period, all you get is shitty religious, moral and literary drivel, and no scientific advancement.

>>2694316
>Economic thought in general was pretty stagnant until maybe the 18th century.
yes, because most of europe had not materially advanced since from ancient times, is my point. land as a primary source of revenue goes back to ancient taxation or tribute, continued into feudalism, and still today in housing rents (the earliest modern political economists also say that as the yield of land increases, rent must rise, not diminish, showing how rent is the primary economic category). too in marx, capitalism necessarily begins by the confiscation of land, making it also primarily political. aristotle also discusses supply and demand, the same as ibn khaldun later on (1377), showing how commodities in the market were understood milennia ago. the only difference today, its reported, is that because labour works on top of capital, it produces a surplus value, but where does capital begin and end? if a hammer is a form of fixed capital, then man has produced surplus value for a lot longer than 600 years or so. its with this that there is continued confusion, because both marx and engels claim that the law of value is suspended by capitalism, because the surplus is distributed amongst all capitals employed, regulating prices by surplus:
<the Marxian law of value has general economic validity for a period lasting from the beginning of exchange (6,000 - 4,000 years ago), which transforms products into commodities, down to the 15th century of the present era.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/supp.htm
but this is only possible where there is a world market, world trade and world money - but when did this begin?
>>2694319
>But to your argument, you can make the argument that tropical commodities, harvested through plantation slave labor (arguably 18th century "proto-factories" ), were also essential to the industrial revolution in itself
yes, well marx says that slavery is the very basis of the capitalist system, but this would also imply that since the time of the first african slave in britain (1555) to the abolition of slavery in the US (1865), the system has essentially been one of slavery (i.e. for over 300 years), which i agree with, but it also distorts the marxian historicity of the "wage labourer" as the new subject (who in fact is very old in the history of man).

>>2694310
>renaissance means going back to the pagan past. reformation means going back to the original faith.
That's a good point, but there were many strands to the Renaissance. A lot of humanism was fusing medieval Christianity with classical literary tastes and values. Going back to the classics was a way of couching innovation in literary styles. I think the renaissance was a lot of vibes and possible overstated in its impact outside of the fine arts. The literary stuff is interesting, and a lot of it was more about rebelling against the Aristotelian medieval university system, with mixed results.

Hold up gtg, gotta clock out for quite a while, but I will try to write more either today or tomorrow.

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>>2694326
>geniuses can be mass produced
not at all, but they can still be discovered
here's an interesting example of an enslaved genius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fuller_(mental_calculator)

>>2694336
>which she had been tempted to by offers of large sums of money from several persons. One of the gentlemen, Mr. Coates, having remarked in his presence that it was a pity he had not an education equal to his genius, he said, "No, Massa, it is best I had no learning, for many learned men be great fools."
Proves my point, though XD. This uygha was so broken by his mistress he thought her selling him to other people (probably interested in having trained in at least accounting, if not buying him for the interest of emancipating him and having work on intellectual problems) as an act of beneficence. In a system with even as lousy mass education and literacy as ours today would at least given this guy a higher chance of thriving.

>>2686845
>Transitions between modes of production are of an uncertain nature. They are not always brought about by revolution, reform, or planning, but sometimes by a combination of all 3, or by blind historical forces operating over several centuries.
Wrong. Transition between any mode of production is of certain nature deduced by science. World and its laws are knowable. The only uncertainty comes from bourgeois mind. You defy scientific laws of history.
>The transition from primitive communism to slavery, and the transition from slavery to serfdom were neither brought about through the planning of the ruling class, nor through revolution, but through unplanned historical changes over several centuries.
You are utterly Wrong. With the development of productive forces some surplus was available and possibility of some people expropriating the labor products of other people occurred. Violent slave rebellions dealt severe blows to the political power of the slave owners and hastened the collapse of slavery. While slavery disintegrated, feudal production relations gradually matured. Only slave and peasant class struggles, slave and peasant rebellions, and slave and peasant wars were real motive force of historical development. Newly emerging landlords used power of the laboring people to overthrow rule of slave owners and established government of landlords.
>The notion that modes of production always (rather than merely sometimes) transform through deliberate revolution is ahistorical projection of the bourgeois revolutions forward in history. What history shows is that modes of production do exist and do change, but whether they change through revolution, reform, or in a totally unplanned way over a long period of time, is up to local material conditions.
Wrong. All fallacious arguments that 'one mode of production can pass peacefully to another' championed by bourgeois historian are totally contrary to facts. These are 'theories' serve to preserve system of exploitation and forbid working people to rise up and rebel.

>>2694339
what i am describing is a division of labour. not all people can benefit from an academic education.
>>2694360
>scientific laws of history
😂😂 care to explain what these scientific laws are?
>Violent slave rebellions dealt severe blows to the political power of the slave owners and hastened the collapse of slavery. While slavery disintegrated, feudal production relations gradually matured
this is entirely ahistorical. slavery existed in england before the normans (450-1066), but afterwards (1066-1485), feudalism was imposed on the english by the ruling class, not out of class struggle, but out of class domination. in fact, the real class struggle of this time was the nobility versus the royalty, such as with the two "baron wars" stretching across the 13th century, from 1215 to 1270, which gave us legal revolutions such as the magna carta (1215), that entered into english mythology for centuries afterwards. this is where history happened. after this we get the "hundred years war" (1337-1453). in the middle period of this international elite conflict we also had the peasant rebellions of 1381. these peasants we can compare to the burghers more than the serfs, since part of the rebellion were various guilds that terrorised flemish competition in london (a move later continued by henry viii who expelled foreign business in england). after this we get the war of the roses (1455-87) which places the tudors on the throne, from whence we get capitalist conditions. henry vii and henry viii confiscate land in service of the landed gentry, who are by now, formally incorporated into the house of lords (included in the primary act of the magna carta), and by which the lords temporal become a majority following 1540. thus, the class war of the middle ages was not serfs vs lords, it was kings vs nobles, and after this it's lords vs peasants. after this, we get the ascendancy of the bourgeoisie in northern europe, leading to the revolutionary conditions of the 17th century, which sees england become a republic and finally a constitutional monarchy, which gives supremacy to the house of commons. in all these cases, it is the elites contending for power over the masses, not the masses rising up to the elites.
>These are 'theories' serve to preserve system of exploitation and forbid working people to rise up and rebel.
i thought material forces governed action, not ideas? and where do ideas come from exactly?

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>>2694360
>>2695572
similarly, in rome, the struggle was not slaves versus masters, it was patricians versus plebs; the two stratum of civil society, such as in the reported "struggle of the orders" (500 BCE - 280 BCE). the only notable slave rebellion gave rise to the myth of spartacus (a rebellious gladiator) in the "third servile war" (73 BCE - 71BCE), but this was not a political battle, but rather a claim of personal freedom by exile.

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>>2690668
https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/07/28/why-no-roman-industrial-revolution/

Why no Roman industrial revolution?

In my last post I repeated Marx’s phrase the the hand mill gave you the feudal lord the steam mill the industrial capitalist. One reader objected that this overstated the role of technology and that steam power was already known to the Romans. I concede that Marx over simplified. There were thousands of water mills in England recorded in the Domesday book. So ownership of water mills was a key part of the power of the feudal lords. A better phrase would have been that the water mill brings you the feudal lord the steam mill the industrial capitalist. But to return to the original question.

The ancient Romans already had a working steam turbine in Hero’s aeolipile. Why were they not able to turn this to use in industry, pumping water or turning millstones?

Why no industrial revolution in antiquity?

There are well known arguments about the social relations of slavery impeding the development of labour saving technology, but is this enough of an explanation?

We know that the ancients harnessed the power of water for grinding corn and other industrial uses, so they were not completely indifferent to artificial sources of power.

Could they not have used steam turbines instead of water wheels to grind corn?

There are the obvious objections that the Mediterranean basin has no coal deposits to fuel steam engines. But in due course they had conquered Northern Gaul and Britannia where they were able to extract coal. Could they have set up and industrial economy in these areas?

I think not. There are inherent technical limitations to the usefulness of Hero’s device, basically its low torque and inefficiency. Steam turbines are now the preferred prime mover – in use in fossil and nuclear power stations across the world, but their superiority has depended on the ability to produce high pressure steam and high rotational velocity. The actual technology that started the industrial revolution – the Watt steam engine had the virtues that it could develop very high torques at low velocity using very low steam pressures.

In order to get a functioning fossil fuel economy you had to have a prime mover and a way of providing fuel for it. The main fuel available was coal which was obtained from mines prone to flooding. The Watt engine was originally developed for pumping out mines, an application which required a lot of force but tolerated a relatively slow engine. The torque T supplied by a Hero style turbine is given by the rule

T = p × 2a × r

whee p is the steam pressure, a the area of each exhaust nozzle and r the radius of the turbine.

The torque provided by a Watt beam engine was given by a similar rule

T = p × a × l

where p is now the pressure difference between the boiler and the condenser, a the area of the cylinder and l is the beam length.

The early Watt engines were huge, with beam lengths of over 3 meters compared to the few centimeters for the length of hero turbines. This is a factor of 100 difference. In terms of diameter of bore a practical Hero turbine would not have exceeded 1 cm against half a meter for a Watt engine. This is a factor of about 2500 greater area for the Watt machine. Let us assume both operate at the same steam pressure, since the technology of boiler construction was initially the limiting factor. That means that the torque of an early Watt engine was about a quarter of a million times greater than an aeolipile.

Could you build an aeolipile that generated comparable torque?

Well yes if you had arms a couple of meters long on the turbine and nozzles a half a meter in diameter, then the torque would be comparable. But the nozzles of the aeolipile are open to the air, so a nozzle half a meter across would use up an entirely impractical quantity of steam.



An aeolipile is only practical as a power generating device if the revolutions per second are very high. A small torque multiplied by a very high number of revs per second can generate a useful amount of power.

The aeolipile had to go through a series of of steps before it could be converted, in the 1880s into practical turbines by Laval and Parson. The first practical use of of a reaction turbine was for Laval’s cream separator. This required very rapid rotation, around 1000rpm, to centrifugally separate cream from milk, so a high speed device was desirable. Laval’s first prototype was based on the aeolipile but heavily geared down using friction gear to get it down to 1000rpm. His second prototype switched to the impulse principle – directing a jet of high pressure steam against a rotating set of turbine blades.

Rotation speeds were very high the 300hp turbine in Table 1 had a peripheral velocity of 366M/s or 1317Kmph – supersonic velocity.



Between the start of steam power and the first practical use of a reaction turbine over 100 years elapsed, during which many engineers came up with suggestions for turbines. But it was not until the 1880s that Parson and Laval designs actual got into use. They depended on having high pressure steam, precision engineering and high strength steels to work. None of these were available to the Romans. They did not have the blast furnaces and forges necessary to make the wrought iron for boilers, far less the Bessemer converters to produce the steel for turbine blades. Steam turbines only became practical as a source of power once industrial society was in full swing.

Well even if turbines were not practical, what stopped the Romans building something like one of Watt’s engines?

Basically a lack of scientific knowledge. The Watt engine depended for its power stroke on atmospheric pressure. Steam was supplied at near atmospheric pressure, and then condensed to create a vacuum. That depended in turn on two key prior concepts – the discovery of atmospheric pressure by Torricelli, and the concept of heat as a quantity to be conserved developed by Watt’s supervisor at Glasgow Prof. Black.

Technologies have an order of dependence to them that can not be arbitrarily skipped over. Without the knowledge and skills associated with a particular stage of technology, you can not simply go on to develop the next.

>>2695588
> this was not a political battle, but rather a claim of personal freedom by exile.
the third servile war was absolutely a political battle. deploying the military to crush a slave revolt and then crucify the survivors along the appian way is absolutely political


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