The classical Marxist schema wherein the industrial proletariat forms the decisive vanguard of socialist revolution must be ruthlessly interrogated and superseded when confronted with the objective reality of advanced settler colonialism, parasitic racist imperialism, and the labor aristocracy that binds large swathes of the so-called "working class" to the reproduction of empire.
The settler working class in America which are predominantly white, but including layers of assimilated non-white labor is not, and cannot be, the leading revolutionary subject in the imperial core. This is not moralism or identity politics; it is materialist analysis rooted in the global division of labor, superprofits extracted from the Third World (and internal colonies), and the bribe of relative privilege that turns potential revolutionary classes into social chauvinists or passive beneficiaries of genocide and plunder.
First, we must consider the structure of imperialism as analyzed through a MLM lens informed by dependency/world-systems insights and the theory of the labor aristocracy. The U.S. is the primary pole of the First World empire, a non-productive, consumption-heavy formation sustained by the superexploitation of the global South and the ongoing primitive accumulation against internal colonies (New Afrika/Black nation, occupied Turtle Island/Indigenous nations, occupied Aztlán, etc.). The "wages" of American workers are not merely the fruit of their labor but a redistributed share of imperialist superprofits via crumbs, cheap commodities, home ownership on stolen land, and the ideological bribe of white supremacy/nationalist chauvinism. This creates a clear labor aristocracy whose immediate material interests align more with preserving the imperialist system than overthrowing it. The "white working class" is not exploited in the classical sense that drives revolutionary consciousness; it is co-opted, bought off, and invested in settler-colonial continuity.
Historical evidence abounds from the 1877 railroad strikes through the New Deal labor accords to the post-WWII suburban boom and deindustrialization's selective pain, white workers have repeatedly sided with empire against colonized peoples (e.g., anti-Black pogroms, support for wars of aggression, rejection of reparations or land return). Even in moments of economic distress, reactionary populism and fascist-adjacent MAGA-ism or its left variants tends to dominate rather than proper proletarian internationalism. The classical vanguard role is foreclosed by this structural reality.
In contrast, the colonized masses; New Afrikans (Black people forged in chattel slavery and ongoing national oppression), Indigenous peoples (facing ongoing genocide and land theft), and other internal colonies all remain the principal revolutionary subjects. Their exploitation is not merely economic but existential, national oppression fused with class domination, where the "wage" is survival under carceral colonial terror, environmental racism, and cultural erasure. For them, the contradiction with imperialism is antagonistic and irreconcilable within the existing order. Land, self-determination, and abolition of the settler state are not reforms but preconditions for any genuine socialism.
This necessitates a non-traditional approach to socialism and production. The path forward is not the seizure of production factories by a mythical industrial proletariat but protracted people's war adapted to settler conditions; building dual power in the internal colonies, encircling the beast from within, and forging alliances on the basis of national liberation as the gateway to proletarian internationalism. Production under socialism here cannot mimic Eurocentric models of communist insurrection; it must draw from communal Indigenous traditions of stewardship, New Afrikan cooperative practices born of survival, and Maoist mass-line experiments in self-reliance all decolonized, decentralized, ecologically grounded, and hostile to European bureaucratic commandism / workerism.
The distributed vanguard emerges from these oppressed nations because their struggle is the sharpest knife against the imperialist beast. It is they who can most readily grasp the mass line, mobilize the broadest united front against settler hegemony, and sustain protracted struggle without the illusions of electoralism or social-contract peace. The white settler "proletariat" may join as allies through concrete anti-imperialist action, repudiating white-skin privilege, and submitting to the leadership of colonized vanguards but never as the leading force. To insist otherwise is to tail economism and social chauvinism, betraying dialectical materialism.
In short the colonized are the grave-diggers of empire precisely because empire rests on their graves. Any socialism worthy of the name in this settler hell must be anti-colonial at its core, led by those who have nothing to lose but their chains and everything to reclaim; land, dignity, and a future beyond parasitic "prosperity." The task is not to "unite" a bought-off labor aristocracy with the oppressed but to encircle, isolate, and dismantle the settler state from its internal peripheries outward.
Serve the people principally the most oppressed. Long live the national liberation struggles within the belly of the beast! From the dialectic arises the new synthesis, the distributed vanguard fights for decolonized communism or nothing. These approaches happen to instill way more fear in America's power structures than traditional euro socialism, and this is for a reason; ask yourself the last time you heard the FBI panic about the workers reading club, and then go ahead and look into about how just the words "turtle island" make them think "terror".
>>2702290>repudiating white-skin privilege, and submitting to the leadership of colonized vanguardsThis will never happen. All you're doing is marking your entire movement as anti-white and mobilising whites against you.
I now would like to turn the dialectical scalpel to the so-called "Marxist-Leninist" organizations infesting the contemporary American left, a motley crew of dogmatists, opportunists, and unwitting agents of settler hegemony. These relics of orthodoxy, with their rote recitations of "What Is to Be Done?" and their fetish for "democratic centralism," have devolved into little more than electoral auxiliaries and NGO-adjacent grifters, perpetually chasing the phantom of a revolutionary white proletariat. In their myopic praxis, they squander the historical moment by appealing relentlessly to the settler class, branding any strategy that might isolate or confront this privileged stratum as "adventurism" or "ultra-leftism." This is not Marxism; it is capitulationism, a betrayal of the oppressed nations that chains the global proletariat to the whims of a white-supremacist labor aristocracy. Let me eviscerate their bankrupt line with the ruthless clarity of materialist analysis.
Observe the daily drudgery of these ML outfits your CPUSAs, your PSLs, your assorted Trotskyist splinters and their alphabet-soup fronts. Their "mass work" is a farce, endless canvassing tactics, peddling tepid demands like "Medicare for All" or "living wages" tailored to the anxieties of downwardly mobile white workers. Groups like DSA organize rallies against "corporate greed" that scrupulously avoid naming settler colonialism as the foundational crime, lest it offend the delicate sensibilities of their target demographic. Flyers decry "imperialism abroad" while glossing over the internal empire at home genocide on Indigenous lands, the carceral gulag swallowing Black lives, the border walls enforcing Aztlán's occupation; they call it out but dont appropriately attack the systems that bind it; they only call out the result. Why? Because to center the colonized and their perspectives would risk "alienating" the settler masses, whose votes and dues are deemed essential for "building the party." This is the essence of their function, reducing revolution to a numbers game where the white working class's comfort zone sets the boundaries of permissible struggle. Woe betide anyone who dares disrupt this cozy arrangement! Propose armed self-defense in Black communities against police terror? Adventurism! Advocate land-back campaigns that directly challenge settler property rights? Ultra-left infantilism! Forge autonomous zones in Indigenous territories free from state oversight? Sectarianism that "divides the class"!
These accusations are hurled not from principled debate but from craven fear; the fear that prioritizing the sharpest contradictions of national oppression fused with class war might "isolate" the organization from its white base. In doing so, they subject the oppressed classes to the narrative and needs of a white privileged sector, forcing New Afrikans, Indigenous warriors, and migrant proletarians to subsume their liberation under the banner of "class unity" that smells suspiciously like white unity. Black centered demands for reparations become "divisive"; Indigenous sovereignty is dismissed as "identity politics"; the whole revolutionary thrust is blunted to accommodate the settler ego. This is not vanguardism; it's tailism, trailing behind the most backward elements of the class while the colonized bleed out waiting for permission to fight from people in positions of privilege / power.
What hypocrisy from those who claim the mantle of Lenin! Recall that Lenin himself lacerated the social chauvinists of the Second International for siding with their bourgeoisies in WWI, yet these modern MLs replicate the sin on American soil in the modern context. They cling to an ossified dogma imported from early 20th-century Europe, where the proletariat was indeed industrial and relatively homogeneous; but here, in the settler-imperialist core, that model is a corpse. True communism demands adaptation! Mao taught us the mass line, starting from the concrete conditions of the peasantry and colonized; anarchism reminds us nature is also oppressed and raped and to fight is to survive. But all these organizations and movements? They're museums of revisionism, embalming errors of the past while ignoring Fanon's indictment of colonial psychology or Sakai's autopsy of settler socialism. Their "internationalism" is a sham, a relic.
You dogmatic fossils, you social-imperialist enablers, your "parties" are nothing but pressure valves for the system, channeling rage into harmless petitions and vote-herding for system of democracy! You betray the oppressed by enforcing a white veto on revolution, turning communism into a therapy session for settler guilt. Your fear of "adventurism" is the cowardice of the comprador, afraid to lose your mailing lists, your foundation grants, your illusory "influence" in liberal coalitions. True communism is forged in the fire of national liberation, led by the colonized who know the boot's weight most intimately. It's high time you all cast off your chains of the old dogma and embrace the modern form marxism must take.
>>2702290>colonized vanguardsThey exist as much as the USA has homes with bidets
>>2702313>enforcing a white veto on revolutionDepends on the revolution.
When people go around spouting off about Atzlan and Turtle Island and anti-colonialism, 99/100 times they're just ethnonationalists but have been cursed to be stuck in an oppressed ethnic group rather than a dominant one, and if given the opportunity they will simply flip the script. Their end goal isn't to get rid of landlords and capitalists but to replace whites as the landlords and capitalists.
Without getting into all the questions about labour aristocracy, to what extent White workers "benefit" from this system, etc. there are always two glaring questions that come from an essentially Sakaist position.
1. How do you get around the fact that internally colonized people are firmly in the minority in America, and couldn't possibly hope to impose themselves on the overwhelming settler majority?
2. How can you reconcile your analysis with the fact that any attempt to define the proletariat in America in economic terms will produce one which is a plurality (if not majority) white?
>>2702328
>The only open visible attempt at a vanguard in modern America that even had remote success was entrenched in black liberation.
How do you figure that? I'm assuming you're referring to the BPP here, but that was only about 20 years removed from the heyday of the CPUSA which was considerably larger at its peak. Meanwhile Black revolutionary activity since the 70s has been more or less nil, and the majority of Black workers are firmly captured by the Democratic Party.
>>2702317The only open visible attempt at a vanguard in modern America that even had remote success was entrenched in black liberation. Nearly every form of left militancy in modern America is anti-colonial at it's core. Remind me the last time the industrial white proletariat engaged in any form resistance in the USA, and it'll likely be from a time where those said workers weren't integrated into whiteness. I love seeing all the workerist whiteboy commies suddenly get uncomfortable with the idea of a class being overthrown by another class when they realize that involves the colonized in a struggle against whiteness. You can go to a so called "ethno nationalist" marxist meeting, and then a white marxist meeting, and you can sense in the air who's room is actually revolutionary and who's room is cramped with idealists.
>>2702331Read Fanon if you haven't. How you deal with this is, you build division amongst the settler narratives. Which this has already happened. Why do you think it appears there's a war boiling between two camps of white people? There is; in simple terms; One is pro white supremacist, the other is anti. This is strategy and trust me, it will work. This is the distinct reason the reactionary forces are engaging in a war on information when it comes to race; CRT, history being removed,etc. They are trying to push back against this strategy because they know, now the colonized in the so called USA have a broader base and that white unity has been fractured. This means white reactionary forces cannot easily protect the imperialism and bourgeoisie logic in these conditions; they have been fractured.
I sat my white ass down and LISTENED!
>>2702337>20 years removed from the heyday of the CPUSA CPUSA had the largest base almost 30 years before the panthers. I'm sorry, but you need to read more history on race; the 1920s and 30s were very different times for whiteness than the 60s and 70s; read the book when affirmative action was white. In this era large swaths of the european proletariat got integrated into American whiteness. The CPUSA did not operate in any generalized revolutionary sense in modern America at all.
>>Meanwhile Black revolutionary activity since the 70s has been more or less nilThe last proletarian uprising in the USA was centered around black struggle. Did you forget the billions of dollars of looting that occurred in every state, and all the revolutionary formations that back, and spawned from those moments?? Now can you tell me the last time there's been a militant industrial white labor uprising in the USA?
>>2702342Fanon never waged a revolution in a country where the colonized population was a minority. In fact there has never been a successful anti-colonial revolution in such a country.
>>2702352>CPUSA had the largest base almost 30 years before the panthersTheir membership peaked in 1947.
>the 1920s and 30s were very different times for whiteness than the 60s and 70sAnd the modern day is very different than the 60s and 70s as well. Whiteness is no longer any guarantee of prosperity or social mobility. The majority of impoverished people in America are white.
>Now can you tell me the last time there's been a militant industrial white labor uprising in the USA?Occupy, so 2008.
>all decolonized, decentralized, ecologically grounded, and hostile to European bureaucratic commandism / workerism.
What does this mean in concrete terms?
>>2702354The idea isn't to read someone's ideas and stop there, it's to build on it and expand according to new motion and context. If you think the class revolution can happen without colonial liberation being at the forefront, you will get moved over and fade to irrelevancy. You also completely ignored everything I said.
>>2702358>>Their membership peaked in 1947.That is still well within the frame development of integration of European proletariat into whiteness, and predates the 50s level of suburban sprawl / white flight era. The "white" working class conditions and relations of the 80s are closer to today than the 30s-40s.
>>Occupy, so 2008And the most radical, militant occupy happened in a BLACK CITY, with black marxists, anarchists and homeless street kids dominating the white narrative. Every other Occupy that was dominated by white voices not only refused militancy but denounced it. The occupys that held and acted upon militancy, and voted to use revolutionary language was the ones led by anti-colonial anti white supremacists struggles. As a result, the Feds began to set places like Occupy Oakland as one of the highest priorities for COIN operations. Much of the occupy in white dominant areas WORKED WITH THE POLICE. That's not an uprising at all. I did extensive research on occupy, and if you want I could map out the most strictly anti-capitalist and militant "Occupys", then compare that to the racial break up and stances of the organizers behind them. It's all data that supports my observations. Funny thing is, in this time period, the same tired "leftists" called any militant anti-white supremacy tied to anti-capitalism out as "isolating to the working class".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x1TNYxCdochttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcJD0Y633Cg
>> Whiteness is no longer any guarantee of prosperity or social mobilityWhy are you viewing things through an individualist lens? Whiteness, colonialism, and white supremacy are structural existences, that have become more deeply embedded, not unraveled.
>>2702392
Finally, a Marxist who has actually studied materialism. Everyone thinks Marxism is some linear observation that always produces the same conclusions, rather than viewing it as a science to be used and applied to in a array of varying conditions and situations. The lack of understanding this is learning addition, with 2+2 = 4, yet instead of seeing the logic and science of it, you expect 3+3= 4 as well.
>>2702387>If you think the class revolution can happen without colonial liberation being at the forefront, you will get moved over and fade to irrelevancy.I don't think that at all, but I don't think it can happen without the participation of the majority of the working class either. If you think it's possible to so completely divide the white ruling class that they cannot unite against an anti-colonial revolution, then why isn't it possible to divide the white population along class lines? To turn white workers against their bosses?
>Every other Occupy that was dominated by white voices not only refused militancy but denounced it.These kinds of moderating voices were present among BLM and the movement around George Floyd as well though. The more militant and revolutionary elements also had substantial white participation and support.
>Whiteness, colonialism, and white supremacy are structural existencesI'm doing a systemic analysis here. The fact is that a revolutionary class can only ever be defined in material terms. Ideological structures like racism serve to justify a group being driven into a particular economic situation, as well as to subsequently keep them there. If you are going to define the revolutionary proletariat in America in material terms, i.e. to what extent they are benefitted or harmed by the existing social order, then this is inevitably going to include a significant white proletarian component. Typically one that constitutes a plurality if not a majority. E.g. white people constitute a plurality of all Americans living below the poverty line.
>>2702400
This explains nothing. I want to know what the actual tactical/operational/strategic differences are between an organization that's decolonized, decentralized, ecologically grounded etc. and one that is not.
>>2702406
>You could say this about the so called proletariat in zionist entity, so you are wrong.
The difference is that even the poorest Israeli can get free land in the West Bank, while never having to themselves fear the kind of expropriation that all Palestinians are threatened by. In other words this is a kind of exploitation which exclusively targets Palestinians and benefits Israelis and cuts across class lines. No such thing exists in contemporary America.
>>2702412
Which communist party are you talking about? Those efforts, though admirable, do not nessecarily reflect upon the internal/domestic activities of whatever party it is.
We need nationalism for all peoples. That way no race war but only class war.
>>2702398>white people constitute a plurality of all Americans living below the poverty line.This is observing class in a bourgeois individualist sense of "who has the most poor people" statistically. That doesn't determine the structure and social relations class reproduces, nor does it address how colonialism ties into this directly. Yes, there are more poor white people in total (because white people are ~58% of the population), but that's irrelevant to the question of which group faces greater economic deprivation. The proper measure is the poverty rate, the percentage of each group living in poverty. By that measure, white Americans experience significantly lower rates of poverty and unemployment than every major racial minority group except Asians (which is due to a lot of the immigration from asia now having the route of higher education). The Supplemental Poverty Measure (which accounts for cost of living and government benefits) shows the same patterns; Black Americans at 18.5%, Hispanic at 20.9%, American Indian/Alaska Native at 19.0%, versus non-Hispanic White at 8.8%.
White Americans are not "more oppressed and economically deprived" than Black, Indigenous, or migrant populations. The opposite is true by every standard economic indicator.
>>I don't think that at all, but I don't think it can happen without the participation of the majority of the working class eitherIf the participation of the majority is your main goal, rather than the participation of the most oppressed classes, than you are quite literally subjecting the actual working class / colonized peoples to the logic of their oppressors. You ask them to engage in praxis and theory that incentives a priority on not isolating the people who benefit from colonialism. Thus, the result is, you are engaging in activity and theory that panders to the petite-bourgeois and labor aristocrats; in this approach you pacify the oppressed classes.
>>These kinds of moderating voices were present among BLM and the movement around George Floyd as well though. The more militant and revolutionary elements also had substantial white participation and supportYes, because the task isn't to pander to the logic of the white worker but to generate those who are traitorous to the agenda of white supremacy amongst their ranks. This has happened, and has been happening, and you can see the physical material manifestations of it happening. Go ahead, go to any serious leftist space and try to denounce the ideas I present, and see the people hawk you. Then, go to watered down, pacified left movements and do it, and see them applaud the denunciation.
A perfect example of this flawed idea of the colonized peoples being expected to submit to the logic of the labor aristocracy in their praxis would be the Mohawk stand off in Canada. The mohawk warriors were armed, and took over zones, and refused entry of the property owners; they had armed stand offs with the military and shut down major roads and bridges. The white working class began rioting, not in support, but in outrage that the military hasn't fired upon them yet. This is the logic you wish people to submit to, the white mass of workers who riot because the military wont shut down the resistance against luxury condos / golf courses violently enough. This is not logic to chain struggle to, it is logic to be divided, fractured, attacked and hit with down the hammer of the colonized people's force.
Source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArOIdwcj2w8and it still happens -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs_T-R2TuKA >>2702460
>but that's irrelevant to the question of which group faces greater economic deprivation
Yeah and? This isn't oppression olympics, we aren't liberals. The relevant question here is what is the makeup of those people in America who have no real stake in the existing system, and who have an interest in its overthrow.
>If the participation of the majority is your main goal
Revolution is my goal, which can't be accomplished without the majority.
>rather than the participation of the most oppressed classes
Workers are the most oppressed class. Black or Indigenous workers are more oppressed than white ones, but these are not class categories. If you're going to subdivide the workers according to oppression and discrimination along other axes, then you're dealing with a hydra. Any demographic can be infinitely divided in this way. If Black workers are most oppressed, then what about queer Black workers? What about disabled queer Black workers? This is the logical conclusion of trying to appeal primarily to the most disenfranchised people you can instead of trying to forge a coalition actually capable of seizing power.
>White Americans are not "more oppressed and economically deprived" than Black, Indigenous, or migrant populations.
I never said they were, my point is just that white people still make up a large percentage of the oppressed and exploited in America, and a large percentage of the population with an interest in revolution.
>You ask them to engage in praxis and theory that incentives a priority on not isolating the people who benefit from colonialism.
But I'm specifically talking about uniting all the people who do not benefit from colonialism. If a white worker exists under similar economic conditions to a Black worker, then in what meaningful way do they benefit from colonialism? If it doesn't translate to a higher standard of living or real prosperity, then how could these benefits possibly outweigh the class oppression they face? I'm talking about maintaining the unity of all people in America who stand to gain from the overthrow of the existing system, which is a group that includes substantial numbers of white people.
>Go ahead, go to any serious leftist space and try to denounce the ideas I present, and see the people hawk you.
Sorry but idk about any leftist spaces, serious or otherwise, where Sakaism is really tolerated or prevalent. For my own part I'm a member of a communist party, and I've organized extensively with Indigenous people since there are many of them where I live. I've never even encountered people unironically espousing these ideas.
>>2702470>This is the logic you wish people to submit to, the white mass of workers who riot because the military wont shut down the resistance against luxury condos / golf courses violently enough. I'm not asking anybody to submit to this, I'm saying our goal as communists is to convince those white workers of the fact that their real interests are aligned with those of the Mohawk.
>>2702478>Sakaism There's truths to be found in it, but Sakaism isn't something followed word for word. You are wrong if you think the anti-colonial resistance framework hasn't ousted and trumped the purely workerist approach. "We are all just workers forget race" is something that will be shouted down within every active, existing militant left movement in the Americas. It's irrelevant and the social tension has not expressed itself through that line.
If you want to understand the ideas expressed here in a more direct way, you have to study on the developments of race as capitalist class structure, then analyze the social reproductions produced by said structures. You need to read modern marxist race theory texts, modern anti-colonial stances, and theories of decolonizing.
Reading list;
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/678761/decolonial-marxism-by-walter-rodney/https://www.worldofbooks.com/products/border-as-method-or-the-multiplication-of-labor-book-sandro-mezzadra-9780822355038https://www.jstor.org/stable/jj.12250639https://ouleft.org/wp-content/uploads/Allen-The-Invention-of-the-White-Race-vol-1.pdfhttps://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5149/9781469619491_williamsHere is a quote from irelands socialist party discussing the last book;
"Colonial landowners turned to the Atlantic slave trade after experimenting with indigenous labor and then British and Irish emigrants. As Walter Rodney explains, Africans were brought to the New World not because they were Black, but because they were the cheapest way to extract surplus labor from the colonies. Pioneering Black writer Lerone Bennett and later, Theodore Allen, showed that in the English speaking colonies, racist laws had to be created in order to allow for their status as slaves, and to incentivize poor whites to side with the slave-owners when slaves rose up in revolt."
>>shows us, what I said, is the basis of US class domination is white supremacy, you convince workers to negate and attack that supremacy, that is the material task at hand when dealing with the white worker, not asking them to simply hate their boss. Things need to be unraveled and undone, otherwise reactionary reproduction of capitalism will form in your class struggle.
>>But I'm specifically talking about uniting all the people who do not benefit from colonialismYour idea that the class struggle negates white privilege's existence is not Marxist at all.
Decolonization is never happening, it’s a fantasy just like communism
>>2702505In the interests of not talking past or misunderstanding each other, I want to make it absolutely clear that I'm not advocating a purely workerist approach here. I'm not suggesting sweeping race under the rug or ignoring white supremacy. On the contrary, I would argue that the struggle for the liberation of racialized people is absolutely imperative, and class struggle in America simply can't advance without it. However I also believe that any Marxist definition of the revolutionary class in America will necessarily be plurality if not majority white. I'm also convinced that white supremacy is against the interests of white workers in general. As such it must be clear that this revolution will be a workers revolution
as well as an anti-colonial one, and that white proles should support it out of self interest rather than as "allies" doing so out of moral conviction. Crucially, I think we must still seek out and organize working class white communities rather than write them off. Do you disagree with any of this?
>>2702511They get a golf course and all it costs them is their jobs being shipped overseas, healthcare and education being cut, their unions being smashed, their wages falling, their rent being raised, etc. Ultimately they have a common enemy in the same system that oppresses the Mohawk. All white supremacy does is delay these things.
>>2702519Anyone who enjoys golf courses should be put in labour camps.
>>2702516Yes, and everything you said happens when the reactionary base of white workers fractures on the issue of white supremacy, where a decisive amount of white people become willing to attack colonialism. This method has worked. Today we see similar standoffs with the Native populations, less intense yet militant; way more white people are accomplices to it than they were in the Oka crisis, and today it would not be surprising to see the white radical riot in support of the Mohawks, even clash and throw hands with other white people who are anti-mohawk. This means the reactionary base still exists, but they are being fought against by other white people now; this is what opens up the space for real class resistance to occur, but unity of a singular class cannot be achieved without this phase. The war with the white reactionary is inevitable, the question is, how do we mitigate the damages by decreasing their numbers? Not, "how do we avoid it?"
>>2702525Full golf courses are pretty degenerate and a waste of resources, you could probably keep putt putt and driving ranges though
>>2702290Decolonization is self defeating because it creates a disunited, separate and weak fighting force unable to fully coordinate. Decolonized countries all end up capitalist puppets but with a local strongman to work with the global bourgeoisie. The whole anti-colonialism trend in the 20th century was nothing but a failed dead end.
>>2702492>>2702493It seems to have worked in Tibet.
>>2702527I don't disagree with the substance of what you're saying, but I would argue that if white workers turn on the white supremacist power structure then this isn't a "betrayal" on their part. Rather they are simply realizing what their real interests are and what they need to do to liberate themselves as well as their racialized comrades.
>>2702532I was arguing it was a betrayal of the social contract of whiteness, not a betrayal of the working class white people as a whole.
Theodore W. Allen's concept of "negative privilege" represents one of the most sophisticated attempts within Marxist theory to resolve the apparent contradiction between white workers' material interests and their participation in racial hierarchy. Allen, wa a former Communist Party member and historian who spent decades working as a postal worker and labor organizer, and developed this analysis through deep engagement with W.E.B. Du Bois's work in Black Reconstruction and his own exhaustive research into colonial records. The core of his argument is that white-skin privileges function as "poison bait" a mechanism whereby the ruling class offers white workers just enough relative advantage over Black workers to secure their political loyalty and prevent class-wide solidarity, while ensuring that these privileges never fundamentally alter their position within the capitalist exploitation structure. Allen insisted that these privileges were not genuine benefits but rather shackles that prevented white workers from recognizing their shared interests with Black workers and thereby achieving the class consciousness necessary for revolutionary transformation.
The "negative" character of this privilege operates on multiple registers: economically, white workers receive marginally better wages and working conditions than Black workers, but these gains are minuscule compared to what unified working-class struggle could achieve; politically, they gain access to civic participation denied to Black workers, yet this participation is constrained by their continued subordination to capital; and psychologically, they receive the "public and psychological wage" of whiteness that Du Bois identified, which substitutes status recognition for material improvement and thereby compensates them for their own degradation.
Allen provided empirical support for this thesis by pointing to the American South, where the most rigid racial hierarchy produced the most degraded white working class in the nation; lower wages, weaker unions, and worse conditions than their Northern counterparts, demonstrating that the maintenance of racial privilege came at the direct expense of white workers' material wellbeing. The historical origin of this system, Allen argued in his two-volume The Invention of the White Race, lay in the Virginia plantation bourgeoisie's deliberate construction of the "white race" as a social control formation following Bacon's Rebellion of 1676-77, when European and African laborers had rebelled together against the colonial elite. By instituting a system of racial privileges, the ruling class created a "wedge" that divided the working class and secured the "political support of the rank and file of the white workers in critical situations, and without having to share with them their super profits in the slightest measure." Noel Ignatiev, Allen's collaborator and founder of the journal Race Traitor, sharpened this analysis by arguing that white skin privileges "serve only the bourgeoisie, and precisely for that reason they will not let us escape them, but instead pursue us with them through every hour of our life, no matter where we go," making the acceptance of such privilege equivalent to "swallowing the worm with the hook in it."
The strategic implication of this framework is that white workers are not simply beneficiaries of racism who must be morally persuaded to altruistic solidarity, but rather are themselves trapped in a system that systematically undermines their own long-term interests, a system that can only be escaped through the active repudiation of white identity and the embrace of class struggle on a genuinely universal basis. My entire POINT in this thread, is that white people's position and lulling into sleep means they aren't in the position to dominate or lead the working class revolution; that the voices experienced with white supremacy and capital in it's rawest forms have the most lessons in rebellious praxis to offer. Any white revolutionary who aims to be successful must be guided by this acknowledgement.
The expansion of colonial and imperial state violence from racialized populations to marginalized white communities represents a well-documented pattern in the historical sociology of the state; examples of this are increasingly targeted poor white populations in rural and deindustrialized regions through drug enforcement policing, generalized surveillance, and the criminalization of homelessness. The material basis for this expansion lies in what Marxist geographers identify as the production of surplus populations; as capital abandons specific territories and labor markets, the disciplinary mechanisms once reserved for racialized "others" are applied to newly surplus white workers who can no longer be integrated into productive relations. This is not equivalence, the racialized character of state violence remains primary and structural but rather a demonstration that colonial and carceral logics, once established, tend toward universal application in the maintenance of capitalist social order, thus the boot always expands to the necks of the most vulnerable white populations. The imperial boomerang theory applies beyond military aggression, and is a theory relevant to all forms of colonial state control.
>>2702559>that white people's position and lulling into sleep means they aren't in the position to dominate or lead the working class revolutionThis is the core point that I disgree with. White people are definetly not monolithic nor are any other race. Capital has a tendency to absorb and dissolve fucking everything into itself and that'll include race. The way I see it, the objective of the revolutionary is to neutralize whitness and non-whiteness with it. White people shouldn't be "allies" as though they are a seperate force, a distinctly white force, lest whitness continue living on as a spook chaining them to a reactionary identity. No, most white people are
not advanced politically ,
however when they are, may they be liberated from their whiteness!
>>2702530Wrong. Decolonization liberates entire nation from exploitation. Decolonization is only way socialism works
>muh national/ethnic/racial struggle is the the primary contradiction not class
yawn
>>2702627Don't worry, these guys usually get stabbed in the back by the military officers who usually end up leading their movement
>>2702627Keep yawning yourself into irrelevancy, whitey.
>>2702628that implies grass was touched
>>2702632post wallsocket
im sorry but until america is gone all of the glorious third world revolutions will just get CIA couped until the end of time
>>2698231
>>2702635I'd be willing to bet you're one of them guys that screams that the leftist's approach towards race has "delayed the class war". How many times do you exclaim "no culture war just class war" a day? You say touch grass, but nearly every outdoor left movement accepts the theories I speak on, and acts upon and around those same realizations. You are a relic from a time that no longer exists. If you are anywhere in the Americas, just hop on the quickest flight back to Europe where you might find greater comfort amongst the left there. Otherwise I'd like to point out that you have no argument, you just trash talk ideas with no counter; you might as well be viewed as a white fed looking to convince people that struggling against racist colonialism is null. Well I have news for you, it is not null, and if you wish to nullify it you must do it with a stick, not words. Good luck.
I suggest that if you plan to keep this mentality, you give up on the idea of touching grass, because if you're outside attempting to actualize your fossilized version of white-privileged class struggle you will quite literally get moved over. Those with your ideology are outnumbered amongst the ACTIVE left. You might find yourself safer openly sitting with the white reactionary forces with such a mentality.
>>2702621>Decolonization liberates entire nation from exploitation. Is there a single African or South/Central American country that is socialist? No, they all kicked out the colonialists and now just have local capitalists running the show instead of foreign ones.
>Decolonization is only way socialism worksThis is an empty mantra. 20th Century was full of these movements yet capitalism is stronger than ever. And because they didn't actually solve anything decolonization people just get crazier and crazier. Stupid shit like rejecting scientific method for "indigenous ways of knowing" or even embracing nazi race science but this time whites bad and POC good.
>>2702559I'd say I agree with that analysis about 99%, and I recall reading some excerpts from Ignatiev and Allen finding them very compelling. I apologize for misunderstanding you earlier.
>My entire POINT in this thread, is that white people's position and lulling into sleep means they aren't in the position to dominate or lead the working class revolution; that the voices experienced with white supremacy and capital in it's rawest forms have the most lessons in rebellious praxis to offer. Any white revolutionary who aims to be successful must be guided by this acknowledgement.I think there is a lot of truth to this statement insofar as it is reasonable to expect revolutionary sentiments to appear first and entrench themselves most deeply among racialized people. However like any other reasonable statement there's always the potential for it to he misapplied or exaggerated. Given the tendency for radical liberalism/bourgeois progressivism to worm its way into socialist spaces in America, such thinking always bears with it the danger that some will take this as license to ignore white proletarian input altogether (which is not something I'm accusing you of). More specifically, I've encountered situations wherein people peddling bourgeois and reactionary ideas shield themselves from criticism on the grounds that whites should defer to Blacks when it comes to the revolutionary struggle. However this whole thing must of course be a collective effort, and I think there are forms of false consciousness to which colonized people are actually more susceptible (e.g. substituting ethnonationalism for internationalist socialism, a myopic focus on their specific group to the detriment of the broader working class including other racialized people, etc.). Moreover there will of course be insights regarding certain issues which white comrades are uniquely situated to provide, such as how to make inroads into working class white communities, what issues to emphasize, what rhetoric to deploy, etc. So when we speak of how the racialized workers will likely "dominate" and "lead" such a movement, I think it's important to emphasize that this is more a descriptive statement than a prescriptive one for how such an organization must be consciously organized, e.g. through something like a progressive stack.
>>2702619>This is the core point that I disgree with. White people are definetly not monolithic nor are any other raceThis is something that became really clear to me when I started reading Black radical literature and following Black radical discourse. Think of how much more good somebody like Malcolm X could have done if he had become a Marxist at the start, and not wasted his time with a bourgeois organization like the NOI. Instead he only began moving in a socialist and universalist direction towards the end of his life, and not coincidentally was shot shortly after. There is no shortage of dead ends that many would be revolutionaries are sent down because they lose sight of the importance of class struggle and materialist analysis. Take something like this concept of "Foundational Black Americans", which clearly divides Black people not only from other racial groups but even from themselves. The fact that such a concept could be seriously discussed clearly indicates the very real dangers of bourgeois consciousness duping even the most oppressed workers.
tl;dr
Colonialism is progressive
>>2702644>Is there a single African or South/Central American country that is socialist? No, they all kicked out the colonialists and now just have local capitalists running the show instead of foreign ones.I seriously doubt that in those regions of the world, domestic capital dominates instead of international capital. Even if it did, the interests of the national bourgeoisie would be subsumed into international capital regardless. Socialism cannot happen without decolonization but so too is decolonization impossible without socialism.
>Decolonization liberates entire nation from exploitation.
Top fucking kek
>>2702665>Socialism cannot happen without decolonization but so too is decolonization impossible without socialism.If only a book was written about this by a bald Russian man who was right about everything.
>>2702632I'm Pakistani dumbass
>>2702665>domestic capital dominates instead of international capital. There is no real difference. Capital is Capital. Decolonization is the superficial RETVRN to the local language and culture. It does nothing to the larger capitalist economy in itself.
>Socialism cannot happen without decolonizationSocialism can only happen when workers unite to seize the MoP and overthrow capitalism. While smaller worker collectives in the form of nations seizing the MoP piecemeal is fine it also easy for capitalists to use the weaknesses of the nation from to take everything back. Ultimately to fetishize that one particular type of collective worker organization and insist it's the only way to socialism is wrong.
>>2702313You say this about ML Statesian left but what you're saying is just FRSO's program with (very slightly) edgier language
>>2702383It means nothing you're talking to an american maoism slopbot run by peter thiel
>>2702559Switch to generating these with deepseek since you're such a fan of oppressed races. Plus it's just factually way better than the word salad slop machine the best american minds and billions of american dollars could make
>>2702628This. So you decide you are doing a national movement, what now? Your nation is divided by class. What class leads the movement? Well you've already decided against proletarian revolution in favor of national, so as a direct cause the bourgeoisie rules the national coalition, because the proletariat has abandoned it's position. And insofar as they pursue it as nationally tinged communists, they are betrayed and crushed every time, often while unarmed, because they stupidly trusted the armed men of their nation. The bourgeoisie are not so stupid, they have no reverence for skin color or place of birth. They're pragmatic. So by the act of the nationally oppressed working class attempting national revolution they doom their nation's possibility of salvation.
>>2702639In a given country, there is a limit to how much of the working class can be killed in annihilation campaigns against communism (because capitalists require workers, and they would have to replace those workers with the military or small owning classes, who are the ones who carry out the annihilation in the first place, placing limits on how far the pact between the bit bourgeoisie and the reactionary classes can extend). Globally, the limiting denominator is the population of the world working class. This makes annihilation of much larger percentages of the working class feasible, making it possible to wipe out communist movements extremely thoroughly in any given country that is not the US.
To add some hopefulness to this: just like the working class faces a prisoner's dilemma in organizing, so does the capitalist class. They will undercut their class interests in order to pursue their individual interests. This is why, for example, the US doesn't use its massive profits to create a robust welfare state for a highly sheltered and segregated white military caste, as it would if it was acting in its long term interests >>2702786what country or at least what region?
>>2702290Based Analysis Comrade Juche Anon, this is perfectly aligned with this Dialectical Materialist Analysis Effort Post that I have reposted many times that the U$ is a Prison house of Nations, which treats the Black/New Afrikan, Hispanic/Chicano/Mestizo, and First Nations/Native American populations like they are not U$ citizens (Trump ending birthright citizenship will probably transform this from a De facto to a De jure reality by officially stripping citizenship from most of these populations), with them essentially acting as a permanent domestic underclass with essentially no rights that are exploited for cheap labor and disproportionately suffer from Mass incarceration and police brutality, with their neighborhoods essentially under De facto occupation by militarized police (The ICE raids in Hispanic/Chicano/Mestizo communities throughout the U$, and Trumps deployment of the National Guard to Black/New African and Hispanic/Chicano/Mestizo neighborhoods in Los Angelas, DC, and Memphis, has essentially made this a De Jure reality), as New Afrika, Aztlan, and the First Nations, are Internal Colonies/Oppressed Nations inside of the U$, and their National Liberation should be the number one goal of U$ Communists (U$ Communists must give up on the Quixotic Bourgeois Electoralist Tailist Chauvinist effort to desperately appeal to the Ultra-Reactionary White Settler Labor Aristocracy) as stipulated by the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist principle of Self-Determination for all Oppressed Nations in their own SSR as articulated in Stalin’s “Marxism and the National Question”
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03a.htm and Lenin’s “The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination”
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htm , along with the National Delimitation Policy of the USSR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_delimitation_in_the_Soviet_Union , which will happen once the inevitable World War III between the U$ and China escalates into a Global Nuclear War that will destroy the entire Global Capitalist-Imperialist System, thus allowing for a World Maoist PPW (in both the Periphery/Semi-Periphery where Maoist PPW is already viable in the Material Conditions, as proven by the ongoing Maoist PPWs in India, the Philippines, Turkey, and Peru, and in the Imperial Core, where Maoist PPW will not be viable in the Material Conditions until World War III breaks out and/or Liberal Bourgeois Democracy is permanently suspended, with these two events being related and probably happening around the same time) to create a Global USSR (all of the SSRs and SFSRs of the future Global USSR are pictured in the map I posted, with the former U$ Balkanized into a New African SSR that includes the Black/New Afrikan majority counties of the Black Belt, a Hispano-American SFSR that includes the Hispanic/Chicano/Mestizo majority counties in the U$ Southwest, along with the rest of the Spanish-speaking Multiracial regions of the Americas, while the White Settler majority regions in the rest of the former U$ become part of the Anglo-American SFSR, which also includes the English-speaking provinces of Canada, as Quebec will become its own SSR, with all the Native American reservations becoming ASSRs) to place the Workers and Oppressed Nations of the World on the Shining Path to Communism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
>>2702813Dude, your likely some self-hating white person or self hating diaspora who no one takes seriously
>>2702820you are a jahil khusra
>>2702290I’d say only a socialist revolution could create the conditions necesary for actual de-colonialization beyond ‘land acknowledgements’.
>>2702643didnt read+post wallsocket+touch grass lmao
>>2703147don't sweat it for a second cause these clowns ain't building up real workers. Nah they're herding the usual suspects of street thugs, trust fund white guilt snowflakes fresh outta gender studies and CRT classrooms, and the most self-loathing soy-liberals school shooter types in portland. They ain't beefing with capitalism, boys. They're too busy chuggin' that same Kool Aid Jouche Douche drinks and swinging on anything with a whiff of "white power" like it's their only full time job. Anti white comes first, anti-capitalist is just the side salad that these retards forget to eat. Give 'em time they'll keep screamin' "ACAB" and "decolonize" till they've ghosted every last blue collar white guy who might actually swing a hammer or pay union dues. Then ICE rolls through, mops the floor with their LARP network, and poof, gone. Good riddance. All wee do is sit tight, don't lift a finger for these frauds. Tell everybody else, steer clear of the clown car, it's headed straight for the ditch. When the smoke clears all up we'll get back to actual socialist work no fighting over pronouns, no race-baiting, none of that pushing for a civil race war, just class and labor.
You really don't want get me started on Juche worshippin' weirdos like that account. they spend 23 hours a day ragin' about cops, ICE, and "da whyte man we wuz kangz," then maybe 5 minutes mumblin' about labor if that. Pathetic, you can tell they dont work so all their interactions with capitalism is with cops not work. it was a short run, your puny networks lasted Obama to 2025 eras because it ends now. you all have no fucking idea the storm coming your way for what you did to the minds of white people.
>>2703195Sorry but I'm gonna go to bat for OP here. I think it was somewhat unclear but their take on merging anti-racist and anti-capitalist struggle has been a basic part of revolutionary theory in America since the 1920s.
>>2703201And look at all the success the privileged workers of the imperial core have had in advancing communism! All hail our paragons of the western left, FDR and Benito ᴉuᴉlossnW!
All of America will be destroyed, I mean total annihilation of everyone except for Native Americans. Every city will be nuked, all civilian population centres will be liquidated, and survivors will be dealt with by soldiers in hazmat suits or drones / robots. This includes black Americans who are just as much a part of the imperialist mechanism. This is not an emotional analysis btw, this is just how nuclear war will play out during the global people's war. America will be the last great capitalist power and will have to resort to nukes with no other option, which can only be responded with the complete nuclear annihilation of America as described. The only way out of this is if they can have a revolution first (doubtful).
>>2703201Go ahead cape for these mask-wearin brick chuckin antifa cosplayers and their anarchist sidekicks. Step right up, swing for the fences when the headlines drop about another batch of "hundreds of anarchists detained" See how fast that pitch comes back at your face. You think pokin' this beast of the police state, mass raids, warrantless home invasions, kids, citizens ziptied in their skivvies is just gonna fizzle out? Nah, son. Trump's got the green light. detention centers doubled, 75k+ locked up already, billions more pourin' in. They're not playin' around anymore it's full court press on anything sniffin' left of center, especially the ones screamin' "abolish ICE" and racial. The DHS has got the go ahead to break up all the racial marxist networks, and the militant ones are on kill lists… the normal marxist and socialist orgs are being left out of the incoming operation for a reason.
You see you piss off enough normie white folks who just want jobs, borders, and no chaos in their neighborhoods? That's like walkin' into Tel Aviv waving a Hamas flag and expectin' hugs. Your little adventurist LARP crew's got themselves on kill / arrest lists for 2026 onward and when the hammer drops biggest left-wing sweep since the Palmer Raids so don't come cryin when your "comrades" get rounded up or domed and the rest of us real workers keep clockin' in trying to sive. Communist parties, DSA weirdos, whoever my advice? Stay in your lane. Don't "step up to the plate." for anarchists. Watch the fireworks from the cheap seats, learn the lesson, and maybe next time organize actual class struggle instead of race-war cosplay and the population wont give the state the green light to end your movement and hurt its leaders.
>>2703195your literally the same as OP aesthetic internet creatures
>>2703335Speak like a human.
>>2703266So what’s your idea? Have the revolution in secret?
>>2703422
>start actually organizing the white working class around real labor wins, higher wages, union power, beating back austerity
If you do that without instilling them with an anti-racist consciousness they'll just betray the revolutionary cause to get ahead at the expense of racialized people for the millionth time. We've seen where this shit leads. The anti-racist and anti-capitalist struggles will advance in lockstep or not at all.
>>2703392nope just stop tailing these ultras straight into race war LARPing and start actually organizing the white working class around real labor wins, higher wages, union power, beating back austerity. Fuck these anti white anarchokiddies and their adventurist bullshit. They're out there chucking fireworks at ICE, getting people killed or locked up, trying to accelerate civil war while normal people grind paycheck to paycheck too exhausted from actual work to care about their irrelevant lumpen fringe cosplay. Their politics sits on the dregs and idealist edgelords, not the working class. look at france ultras and anarchists are beating people to death at the end of protests far left militants linked to antifa groups just lynched a young working class gentleman in Lyon, putting him in a coma then killing him, sparking massive far-right marches and escalating the whole mess into a race war narrative handed to reactionaries on a platter. Brilliant move anarchists and ultras, you did it again!!!!! more political violence that alienates everyone and delays real class struggle. Ditch the accelerationist clowns uild actual labor power and stop following these idiots in the caravan they're leading right off a cliff. But they'll call you racist and even threaten you with violence when you say the white worker should be a priority. Don't believe me? Check these clips showing exactly that dynamic in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxV37DVpLTIDurp hurp lets delay class war for culture and race war. that's their purpose agents of chaos. Remember these same idiots almost started a civil war in the USA by manipulating volatile citizens?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmJgcR8INfMAdventurism is suicide. These people are wreckers sent to destroy leftism from within and swap class war for civil war. Kick them out like Nazis. Build where real workers are before its too damn late.
>>2703433>>anti racist consciousness Hard to build anything like that when the ultras wage low scale civil war on working class whites. Did you not see the videos?
>>2703435In what way is any of that waging war on working class whites? The only people doing that is the ruling class.
OP is gay
>>2703436lmfao antifa (anarchists, maoists and other rag tag idiots) has beaten and killed multiple working class whites. they dont try to organize them they further the divide through violence and make the gap so large it cant be bridged. They make white people hate socialism even more. theres a video of them beating a white student to death as a mob and oddily enough theres people in a political party there! ummm sounds like people like juche douches "political wing, decentralized mob" theory. Idiocy, neanderthals in action I say!
since you arent convinced its war on working class whites in place of organizing them heres more evidence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBM7doO1zOM (literally planning a hit not self defense)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBQXWlPHx8g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehlthe left is letting these idiots set the standard and all they do is play right into the hands of the reactionary and rich. theyve beat journalists, mobbed on people for having american flags, stabbed people for saying the wrong things. They only know how to riot and fight not think.
>>2703445OP and this guy are the same person lol
>>2703444
>lmfao antifa (anarchists, maoists and other rag tag idiots) has beaten and killed multiple working class whites
Are you talking about that French rightoid? Fuck him lmao.
>CHAZ shit
The problem there was the complete lack of organization of any kind. "Waging war" implies organized violence. The fact is that whatever collateral damage that may result from smashing adventurism pales in comparison to the damage inflicted by the ruling class. Moreover it completely sidesteps OP's point about the necessity of merging the anti-racist and anti-capitalist struggles.
>>2703447>>2703455Mover owner operator is working class you jackal. Two more schizophrenics. Jesus fuckin H christ leftypol is filled with paranoid freaks.
>>2703463now credit due where credit is due making up not one but two different idpol retards solely for a bait thread is at least innovative mass tor baiting but mass tor baiting nonetheless
>>2703471Now I'm wondering why you think being pro white-working class is retarded? Sounds like you are not only paranoid but retarded. You think OP is retarded so you're not a black separatist. So what are you? Who do you stand for?
>>2703464Aaron Danielson was not some super elite rich business owner stop trying to justify the murder of a working class American. I think this guy is OP in reality.
>>2703478>think of le hecking smol bean business owners!If you own capital and don't survive by selling your labour power for a wage you are not working class. He was a petty bourgeois cretin openly aligned with the far right group Patriot Prayer. So not only was he not a worker, he was an active and ideologically committed footsoldier of the ruling class. Seriously just read the basics ffs:
<The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labor and does not draw profit from any kind of capitalhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm >>2703481You must be another disinfo agent saying bullshit with no evidence. let me guess neo nazi looking to spread confusion?
>>2703485>neo nazi looking to spread confusion?yes we ALL know its you lol not even subtle atp
>>2703489This. Not an accusation I normally make but seething about some petty bourgeois reactoid getting shot by leftists reeks of /pol/.
>>2703489>>someone has polar opposite opinion of OP>>only way to explain this is it's same personPerfect you successfully diverted from the topic of anti whiteness plaguing the left. How the fuck are you going to compare me to OP an idiot who posts anti-white bullshit. I want to organize white workers not against them dont compare me to him you fucking mongoloid.
>>2703495>>2702290same exact with the same exact ideals btw
>>2703434I don't really disagree with the rest of your post but
>far left militants linked to antifa groups just lynched a young working class gentleman in Lyon, putting him in a coma then killing himFuck him, he was a fascist skinhead. They were trying to corner said far-left militants while armed with metal poles and other improvised weapons near a political conference, they played the game and they lost. After the battle, neighbors told the "working class gentleman" to go to the hospital, but he refused, either because he was a huge retard who thought he would be a pussy if he went to the hospital, or because he had compromising things on him related to the assault.
And "working class" my ass. The fascists skinheads of Lyon are notoriously financed by the local Catholic reactionary bourgeoisie.
The main problem isn't that a fascist skinhead died, it's that everybody knows in Lyon and France fascist skinheads there are well organized, the police protect them every time they start trouble, now our billionaire-controlled media try to do it too, but they are too retarded to not lie like idiots on TV. And one of them managed to get killed by someone unarmed. I won't shed any tears for this petit-bourgeois moron.
Anyway this thread is shit. OP is again someone who is overdosing on idpol, probably an American, just to feel holier than thou and more radical than everyone else on the internet, then in real life, they do jack shit. Helping your local black community? No this isn't radical enough dude, Sakaist shitposting is so much more rad. Pathetic useless people. Call me when you organize a decolonized revolution, but I feel like I will have to wait until I'm on my deathbed.
>>2703507oh look an idiot who thinks anti white people are the same as people who want self determination for European workers. horseshoe theory is cringe.
>>2703517>>2702290>muh race>muh ethnos>muh nashun>muh kulturNGMI+same exact with the same exact ideals btw
>>2703521You talk shit on my ideals yet you never show any contorary ideas to anyone. Your just an NPC shill poster with nothing to say.
>>2703259why do Americans love these dorks so much? this is most impractical clothing for any urban guerrilla to wear, also they lost every single gun fight with the cops
>>2703392actually build a base and created communes, try to skirt with in the Law rather then doing revolutionary LARPing
>>2703525exactly its so plain to see hes trying to make people who arent black nationalist types look retarded by multiboxing and saying bordeline nazi shit.
>>2703541this guy gets it. adventurism leads to jail, prison and death. were really lionizing men who idolized nihilist ideas like revolutionary suicide?? howd that go for huey he died as a crack head probably due to all the unnecessary trauma caused by the lifestyle of adventurism. that what yall want for yourselfs?
>>2703546>>2703541There is no “sticking to the law” in the medium to long term though, you’re going to be ghettoized and liquidated exactly like everyone in Gaza.
Evil bastard
Cut throat warmonger
Backstabber, betray your own mother
You double tongued, double talk cause you two face-ed
You triple 6 with a hiss like satan
No good snake you only speak lies
Slime bucket scum of the universe
Your eyes reveal that you have no soul
And expose your true colors I see you
From three million miles away
That you's a sneaky motherfucker but you can't fool me
You not my bro, you not my sis
The devil doesn't have a skin color or a complexion
So you not my brother you not my sister
Your skin might be brown
But I know that you down with about two billion demons
Listen just stay the fuck away from me or get killed for treason
Against The Most High
You might got these other people scared of you
But that shit don't fly
Over here we laugh at you but it's not a joke
Because people need to know about the black devil
Yeah, the real outcast your time is up
It's not the end of the world, it's the age of aquarius
You's a deceiver
You got the whole world confused in a daze like some rats in a maze
You's a shape-shifter
I don't care if you the pope, the president, or prime minister
King or queen, prince or princess
You just fronting for the public and you fronting for the press
But behind closed doors
What really goes on is
Ritualistic, cannibalistic, sadistic, masochistic
Some real sick shit
The most wicked there is that ever lived
Under the sun the infamous day walker
The movie Blade is just metaphorical
Yes, the greatest trick that the devil ever pulled
Is convincing the world that the devil don't exist
People have no clue
They looking for a red man with a pitchfork but that's just not true
Some say that it's the white man
But yo I'm here to let you know if you ain't know
About the black devil
Knowledge, equality of all people
Even though physically we not all equal
Erase the racism
The only thing I see when I look at a person is good or evil
But the 'black man is god'
Yeah that shit sound good
But that shit don't apply when you try and get a job
This is real world music, reality rap
We spent too many years on that fantasy crap
It's time we deal with the facts
And the fact is you ain't better than somebody because the color of your skin
I did three years in prison
And the white boys showed me more love than any of my so-called uyghas
So you can go and ? your doctrine
The only thing that matters is you negative or positive
And you can go to hell even where I'm sure you'll be fine with the rest of your kind
People are so blind, so deaf, so dumb
Which proves you want to battle with the war not done
You might got these other people fooled
But you can't fool we because we know that you a black devil
>>2703561On the surface yeah Cuba had similar racial dynamics to the US, black people in chattel slavery, the native Tainos driven off their lands and killed by white settlers who homesteaded it, eventually marrying and assimilating into settler Cuban society. Where the comparison ends is that Cuba is an island, a large island,
BUT NOT A FUCKING WHOLE CONTINENT. They couldn’t keep expanding to stave off social conflict (let alone become a world hegemonic power) because they ran out of land, this didn’t happen to the US until the middle of the 20th century. They were also left out of Latin America’s first wave of independence movements.
>>2703563>special pleading fallacyThere are thousands of islands in the US, Canada, and Mexico that have a smaller US military presence than Cuba does today. Also, good job forgetting that Turtle Island is still am island. Your post is embarrassing and so are you.
>>2703573If that’s and island than so is all of Eurasia and Africa and the term is meaningless
>>2703573Bro how is the amount of land and resources just some trivial detail that doesn’t change the nature of anything?
>>2703563I mean, is it wrong? The approach certainly, but isn't maximizing the amount of human beings that can live off this land good?
https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2017-07-26/engels-mexican-american-war-week-1-imperialism>Will Bakunin accuse the Americans of a "war of conquest", which, although it deals with a severe blow to his theory based on "justice and humanity", was nevertheless waged wholly and solely in the interest of civilization? Or is it perhaps unfortunate that splendid California has been taken away from the lazy Mexicans, who could not do anything with it? That the energetic Yankees by rapid exploitation of the California gold mines will increase the means of circulation, in a few years will concentrate a dense population and extensive trade at the most suitable places on the coast of the Pacific Ocean, create large cities, open up communications by steamship, construct a railway from New York to San Francisco, for the first time really open the Pacific Ocean to civilization, and for the third time in history give the world trade a new direction? The "independence" of a few Spanish Californians and Texans may suffer because of it, in someplaces "justice" and other moral principles may be violated; but what does that matter to such facts of world-historic significance? >>2703549For the love of God, please look at conflicts objectively and their material circumstances. This is what I hate about every single leftist space: every conflict is treated like Vietnam or Palestine, not even what actually happened in Vietnam, but a fantasy version of crafty guerrillas who used their gumption to defeat the Americans, rather than the tremendous state bureaucracy required to carry out such an operation. Vietnamese advisors told the Arabs that if they tried those tactics, they would be overthrown because their organizations were not capable of mobilizing that many men and their enemy was far better entrenched than the Americans were. No black American organization (no matter how universally beloved) could ever get 1'000, let alone a million, armed soldiers to give their lives in an insurgency.
>>2702290I am not reading all of that man. Dogmatism is based
>>2703613While you are right about Vietnam you missed the larger point. There is nothing to stop the capitalist state from imprisoning or liquidating peaceful and law abiding communists. Crying that you aren't like the anarchists wont stop you from being victim of the Jakarta Method.
>>2702290The marxism is invariant or something
Everyone of you who seems so poked by the discussion of white privilege and supremacy. Your privilege saturates your theory to the point of denial. These pathetic orchestrated campaigns of rumor mongering that attend your positions are, of course, entirely predictable; after all, the security apparatus of amerikkkan administration's Department of Homeland Security explicitly designated anarchist and leftist anti-colonial movements as its primary domestic antagonists, constructing an elaborate architecture of surveillance, disruption, and carceral violence against those who would dare center anti-racist praxis within revolutionary socialist theory.
The three modalities of state intervention articulated by Trump's DHS through Acting Secretary Chad Wolf's 2020 declarations and subsequently operationalized through National Security Presidential Memorandum 7 and the January 2025 Executive Order on "Protecting the American People Against Invasion" are as follows; First, the mandate to investigate, disrupt, and dismantle organized anti-racist leftist formations, deploying the full spectral range of counter-terrorism apparatuses including Joint Terrorism Task Forces, FBI surveillance protocols, and DHS intelligence fusion centers against movements characterized as "anti-American, anti-capitalist, and anti-Christian," with particular attention to those advancing critical analyses of migration, race, and gender. The exact ideas that seem to generate a lot of people who seem more than willing to spread rumors, attacks, and manufacture a general disarray when it comes to my social interactions. I experience this in real life, online in multiple spaces so it's not new. Pro tip for the world’s sneakiest DHS agents; if you’re gonna slide in a pysop against my comrades and I, trash my squad, and spread your rumors about us… at least have the bare minimum creativity to switch up the wording when you hop from here to our IG page comment sections. Want to shit on how I translate my longer texts, but copy pasting rumors is crazy low effort for how fat your budget is. Just admit you’re obsessed with us.
>>On RaceThe proposition that the most structurally destitute and systematically oppressed strata of the United States are not, in fact, composed of the white working class that this demographic, however exploited under capital, retains access to what Du Bois theorized as the "psychological wage" of whiteness appears to generate a peculiar and disproportionate hostility within white radical spaces, not to mention the state itself fears such positions and employs all its dogs to bark. See how the mere articulation of this historical materialist truism provokes not reasoned refutation but rather a kind of reactionary recoil, a defensive posture that suggests the statement has touched precisely upon the shortcomings of white leftism.
Equally curious is the persistent fantasy one encounters it with remarkable frequency in certain "Marxist-Leninist", Anarcho-Syndicalist and social democratic circles that the establishment of a workers' state, however configured, upon territory acquired through systematic Indigenous genocide and sustained through ongoing settler-colonial occupation, might proceed without fundamental contradiction. As though the seizure of state power, that instrument of class domination, could somehow operate as a neutral technical apparatus innocent of the territorial and racial foundations upon which the American class system rests.
One cannot build class emancipatory governance upon stolen ground and expect the foundation to remain invisible. The refusal to confront the specificity of American racial capitalism its origins in the simultaneous production of Black slavery and Indigenous dispossession, its reproduction through the ongoing settler relation, this does not represent a strategic move to the mass but rather a structural blindness. The workers' government of which these comrades dream, if it emerges without reckoning with this foundation, will find itself presiding not over liberation but over the renovated management of colonial and racial domination. This is the most dangerous form of idealism of all, and belongs nowhere in the left; in fact anyone of you who attempts to present this outside of the shadows of the internet will be dealt with. Trust us.
>>2703617The accusations of using AI have already been addressed once before days ago, but you idiots keep assuming it's easy to translate long-winded style political theory texts at rapid speed, full of concepts and phrasing that don't readily translate to another language without some form of software assistance that leverages AI use. But you feds (or whoever you are) seem far more obsessed with that minor detail than actually confronting the substance of my ideas. That's telling. If it's not A.I it's I'm a gang member, or anti-white, but never any addressing of my points without eventually getting mad and reverting to personal attack.
>>2703644>muh discussion>muh debateAre you here to convince people? Is this how it works, the politics?
>>2702290one question tho are you an ethnic decolonist or a flag changing but fundamentally dont change anything decolonist ?
>>2703640>nothingOf course there is, it's called Taqîya
>>2703561The Cuban Revolution occurred in a plantation colony not a settler state. Spanish colonialism extracted labor and resources while largely (though not entirely) displacing Indigenous populations through disease and exploitation rather than establishing a permanently and constantly growing settler population that replaced them across large swaths of land grabs and incessant military campaigns. in the 50s Cuba's demographic reality was Afro descended and mestizo populations with surviving Indigenous communities minimal and geographically marginalized of course. The revolution occurred because it existed to confront neocolonial domination by the United States, not an ongoing internal colonial structure requiring the dismantlement of settler sovereignty itself. Cuba still faced oppression backed by imperialism, the US did not.
An anti colonial revolution against external industrial imperialism is not identical to decolonization of settler colonial land relations. Cuba could nationalize sugar, expel United Fruit, and align with the Soviet Union without resolving a fundamental question of to whom the land belongs because that question had already been "answered" through the events of the 16th century demographic catastrophes which is a whole new topic.
Though, yes a communist party or revolution that comes to fruition or power in Latin America that doesn't address the indigenous question is bound to replicate the same methods of capitalist colonial domination that built the foundation for Latin America's so-called civilized development. This has already happened in history.
>>2703664>mestizo populationsaka Asian (indigenous) mixed with European (white).
>without resolving a fundamental question of to whom the land belongsIt belongs to the workers of the world.
>the indigenous questionThe answer depends on if they are capitalist or proletariat.
>labor aristocracy
>so-called "working class"
>white
>non-white labor
>"wages"
>The "white working class" is not exploited
Ok "non-white" PMC retard. Now kill yourself. You're not a communist btw.
>>2703693You realize, to imagine an equivalence in the modality of exploitation between the white and Black proletariat within the United States is to commit a category error that obscures colonial material realities of racial capitalism. The white worker, however immiserated by the extraction of surplus value, retains access to what Du Bois theorized as the "psychological wage" of whiteness; a compensatory structure that, while immaterial in the strict economic sense, nonetheless secures tangible material benefits; differential access to housing markets, credit apparatuses, educational institutions, and the relative invisibility of one's body to the carceral and extra-judicial violence of the state. This is not to deny exploitation, but to specify its form.
The Black worker, by contrast faces the exploitation of labor power and the ongoing expropriation of life, liberty, and territory characteristic of the colonial relation to the settler. The immediacy of revolutionary necessity derives not from the just the intensity of exploitation alone, but from the totalizing character of racial rule, its penetration of every institutional site, its foreclosure of the limited mobility available to the white proletariat, its constitution of Black life as permanently disposable. The indigenous population, similarly, faces not merely exploitation but elimination from the structural logic of settler colonialism that seeks not the extraction of labor alone but the disappearance of the Native as political subject and territorial claimant. This is NOTHING like simply being exploited by wages alone.
I'll never kill myself, but maybe you can come and try it and see what happens to you.
>>Not a communist by the wayYou must live in an overly white area, because any city with major organizing and resistance going on will laugh at your white lens of leftism. It's not really the norm anywhere with an active leftist base in the USA. You are not a communist, you're a white workers rights movement idealist. It's likely you've read every Marx book, but have yet to do a deep dive into the black and colonized struggle and experience; which makes your politics useless in the USA settler state. You are irrelevant.
>>2703689>>aka Asian (indigenous) mixed with European (white)Yes, but cuba wasnt a settler state. stop going over the facts i drop. The Anglo-American project institutionalized permanent settler society requiring ongoing Native elimination and Black immurement. These are not interpretations. They are the findings of Beckles, Dunbar-Ortiz, Robinson, Lowe the historiography you have declined to read. The Marxist who refuses the study of slavery's afterlives, who treats Indigenous dispossession as prehistory to the real class struggle, will always be politically irrelevant in North America. because the material forces are already organizing around these contradictions. Land back, prison abolition, migrant justice; these are not deviations from class politics. They are the class politics of the actually existing proletariat on this territory. I stake my life on this. You are welcome to stake yours on the white industrial worker of 1950s nostalgia. The historical record is not neutral in this dispute ATT ALLLLL.
>>If the fact that the only major general strike that occurred on US soil within an 80 year time line occurred in response to immigration enforcement operations doesn't show you this as the non-negotiable truth, you are lost >>2703613>This is what I hate about every single leftist space: every conflict is treated like Vietnam or Palestine, not even what actually happened in Vietnam, but a fantasy version of crafty guerrillas who used their gumption to defeat the Americans, rather than the tremendous state bureaucracy required to carry out such an operation.What most people don't realize is that the efforts in Vietnam were helped by what was probably the largest lend-lease operation of the 20th Century outside of WWII. To the extent that the Democratic Republic of Vietnam had one of the densest concentrations of anti-aircraft defenses in the world at the time. This is extremely inconvenient to Maoists, "anti-revisionists" and all the other pseudo-Red tendencies because they have to acknowledge that the "Soviet social-imperialists" were the ones that helped Vietnam with everything from fighter jets to tanks to assault rifles.
>>2703644All I can say is that I can make my own points without producing AI spam. <_<
>>2703704You don't make any points, you're just a white fed. Go play in mud like the pig you are. Your revisionism is something that has been reduced to ash, and any attempts to revitalize it in counter to our true struggle against the racial colonial capitalist hegemony, will be swiftly shut down, and isolated into non-function. It's over. Go ahead and try promote whatever softened white-washed version of resistance you believe in. You will be shouted down any actual action based planning meetings. Go to any major city's radical spaces and see how quickly you are shutdown. That's because your ideas are fossils, whereas ours have life and constant praxis manifesting around the observations. Now, you can continue to ignore my posts and engage in your helpless campaign of disinfo, but that will not give you hold over the leftist space in the USA. It's over, pack it up. The COIN of revisionist co-option has been destroyed. You want to stop it now, you have to stop it with a stick. There's a lot of us who specifically are tired of your type, and have done plenty of work to make sure you won't be able to get in the door in any meaningful fashions; the strategy wont work. Now scurry off back to the CPUSA meeting with the rest of the sad pathetic wastes of life who involves themselves in the web of FBI coin agents and their agenda of pacification.
>>2703703>The Anglo-American project institutionalized permanent settler society requiring ongoing Native elimination and Black immurement. Capitalism is bigger than race and It doesn't need race categories of proles to function. You are confusing capitalism's historical opportunism of using race to divide the working class with an intrinsic necessity to have race. Those are two different things.
>Indigenous dispossession as prehistory to the real class struggle, will always be politically irrelevant in North America.There are less than 3 million "Indigenous" now. Sorry but that just isn't a big enough population to be politically relevant in a country of over 300 million.
>Land backNothing to do with communism. Communism is when the workers own everything in common. Land back is just switching out current landlords with a different set of landlords.
>You are welcome to stake yours on the white industrial worker of 1950s nostalgia.The Chinese are white now?
>>2703720Unfortunately for you the white lens of leftism has been near totally ousted in the so called USA. The NGO and leftist-revisionist co-option web, those carefully constructed channels of foundation funding, and activist careerism, the carefully managed dissent that constituted the backbone of post-1960s counterinsurgency all of it has been rendered increasingly irrelevant through years of careful organizational approaches, relentless study, and principled refusal of the nonprofit industrial complex's seductions.
So now I'll say to the revisionists who still imagine the white industrial worker as the revolutionary subject par excellence, who treat Black and Indigenous struggle as auxiliary to the real class struggle, who cannot see the general strike in Minneapolis or the land defense at Standing Rock as the potential vanguard of proletarian power in this territory… your time is over!! it is fact, your ideas have been buried.
You have already been pushed out of any major leftist function of consequence. The radical members of rank and file unions have shifted towards this too, beginning to oust the white business chauvinism of unionism in USA. The cadre formations and individuals that survived all these years have learned many lessons. The theoretical production that circulates has moved on extensively. You are speaking to audiences that no longer exist. We won this little internal battle of the left. This victory was built through the patient construction of autonomous power, the refusal of co-optation, the recognition that the most exploited and colonized sectors of this social formation were never "divisive" deviations from class politics but indeed its very center.
Your maps are obsolete. Your nostalgia is veryyy very embarrassing. The future of revolutionary struggle in North America will be Indigenous-led, Black-led, migrant-led, or it will not be. This is not a proposal for debate. It is a statement of accomplished fact. Now keep yapping online, and stay inside or get in line.
>>2703731>muh maps>muh territory>muh deleuze muh nick landYou are a tiqqun reading deleuze guattarian rhizomatic
estrogen injecting trccn modernizer
>>2703747White settler labor rights movement masquerading as marxist. It almost seems like you want to go hang out with Quentin Deranque.
>>2703762uygha did you copy and paste that name off google ?
>>2703763That's funny because any form of struggle actualizing is in line with everything i say. It's not spontaneous it's being organized lmfao. It seem spontaneous if you just watch clips online all day.
>>2703764No, I copied from an article I was just reading actually. whys it matter, stay mad, stay losing.
>>2703763I did not respond to you kindly comrade, that was rude of how snide I was in my response. Forgive me im going through relentless cointelpro. I found out when the zine distro and meme page we run got the same "your a methhead" "gangbanger" and all the same talking points of the same here that it was the same people here. not sure who they are but i know i am under survelliance from every agency and israeli watch dog groups from my last 5 months in NYC. I left, and saw some of the same people follow me out of city. funny enough im a legal immigrant so not to worry about there.
>>2703731>all of it has been rendered increasingly irrelevantmost people here know that western left has been crippled. but the solution isn't just race swap leadership while declaring crusade on whitey. skin color of leadership doesn't magically make you win
>the general strike in Minneapolis or the land defense at Standing Rock as the potential vanguard of proletarian power in this territoryall resulted in nothing because their radlib and anarchist impulses.
>beginning to oust the white business chauvinism of unionism in USA. the concept of unionism isn't inherently "white" or "chauvinist" no matter it's effectiveness as a strategy. once again you just randomly mix in race into concepts where race isn't intrinsic to those concepts
>We won this little internal battle of the left.you are looking at a local trend. irl china is doing more at winning the left than western radlib academic blather
scratch a neomarxist find a neoliberal
>>2703644My father's racism and the racism of most of my countrymen(Pakistani's) would probably make you shit yourself
>>2703640I get what you're saying, but if you want to have even half a chance in a developed, industrialized resistance, you need to build an actual parallel society and economy to truly resist. A bunch of guys with shotguns and pistols isn't a threat to anybody. Shooting one or two beat cops while getting all your members arrested is an objective loss.
Socialism is not colonised in the first place.
It is pointless to talk of white settlers in America when blacks, and latinos are exactly the same.
The enemy is the yank.
>>2703820over 60% of black americans working age are in the labor force. you racist fake commies just be saying whatever.
>>2703826he's trolling but the idea that black people lumpen actually came from New-left white and black academics themselves but added that's a thing
>>2703644
>The workers' government of which these comrades dream, if it emerges without reckoning with this foundation, will find itself presiding not over liberation but over the renovated management of colonial and racial domination. That's true of even MLs who are coming from communities of color. I saw a self-identified Chicana ML on tiktok posting about how "you can't be part of Mexican culture if you don't speak Spanish." 100 percent erased the significant number of indigenous people from Mexico who are either monolingual indigenous language speakers or learned Spanish as a second language so they could pursue formal education.
A lot of folks like that are living in the USA right now as migrants working the hardest farm labor jobs.
Even if the TikTok creator (who I believe is associated with PSL) and her comrades got the socialist worker's state they want, they'd still replicate the mejor la Raza shit. Jose Vasconcellos' ideology is still a plague on humanity.
>>2703543See how as soon as the totally not a /pol/ack poster leaves the OP comes back? literally the same guy lmao
I can't help but feel like people are talking past each other ITT and potentially mistaking OP for a Sakaist as I initially did. Does anybody here disagree with the statement that racialized workers are worse off than white ones, and that we can therefore expect revolutionary sentiments to be strongest among those communities? Does anybody disagree with the statement that a worker's revolution in America must simultaneously be anti-racist and anti-colonial?
>>2703774>>most people here know that western left has been crippled. but the solution isn't just race swap leadership while declaring crusade on whitey. skin color of leadership doesn't magically make you winThis isnt "Race-swap leadership" that implies a formalist substitution like remove the white executive, install the Black executive, preserve the structure intact. This is not what I proposed at all. It is what you imagine because your mind remains captive to parliamentary cretinism, to the belief that leadership is a position one is voted into rather than a material force one is organized by.
So when I speak of Black and Indigenous struggles at the forefront, I do not speak of melanin as magical bureaucratic leadership. I speak of material reality, the specific relation these populations bear to the means of production, to the state, to the territorial foundation of the settler state itself. The Black worker confronts not merely exploitation but social death the permanent vulnerability to premature death, incarceration, dispossession that structures every aspect of daily existence. The Indigenous population confronts not merely poverty but elimination the ongoing settler-colonial project that requires their disappearance as political subjects. These are not "identity politics" in the liberal sense. They are structural positions within racial capitalism.
The centering of these struggles is not an attempt to invoke skin color as virtue. It is to recognize that the most acute contradictions of this social formation between capital and labor, between state and subject, between colony and body condense at these specific sites. The Black struggle against police power is not "identity politics." It is the struggle against the specific form state violence takes in the management of racialized surplus populations. The Indigenous struggle for land return is not "identity politics." It is the struggle against the originary expropriation that enables all subsequent accumulation on this continent.
Your constant inability to distinguish between formal representation and material leadership (the organized capacity of the most exploited to transform social relations through struggle) reveals mental poverty. You still imagine revolution as a change of personnel rather than a transformation of structure. You still think in terms of who occupies the office rather than whose material interests the movement serves.
The Minneapolis general strike was not led by a Black man elected to formal position. It emerged from the organized rage of the most surveilled, most incarcerated, most precarious sectors of the working class; those with immediate material necessity to stop the machinery of their own destruction. That is leadership. The capacity to halt production, to disrupt order, to demonstrate that this system cannot function without the consent of those it most exploits. You accuse me of identity politics while remaining so trapped in liberal categories that you cant conceive of the politics outside formal representation. I accuse you of idealism and of thinking leadership is a title rather than a relation of forces, of imagining that the big scary "crusade on whitey" you fear is anything other than the necessary confrontation with the settler-colonial and white-supremacist foundations of the state/capital network you claim to oppose.
>> once again you just randomly mix in race into concepts where race isn't intrinsic to those conceptsYou don't think there's networks of privilege, and racism in American business unions? You are severely uneducated on race, which makes sense considering how generally uncomfortable and fragile white people are when it comes to this topic. They don't even want to confront it mentally, let alone physically.
>>you are looking at a local trend. irl china is doing more at winning the left than western radlib academic blatherThe conditions of the Chinese revolution are not interlinked with modern USA. You invoke china, as if this discussion and method I speak on would make sense to apply there. It wouldn't. If you want to sit back and hope china doing it's thing reaches you, you are not a revolutionary, you are simply a worker who enjoys the idea of socialism. A revolutionary constantly observes the flaws and contradictions of their society, and agitates upon them. You can guarantee that if China were going to covertlu boost a movement in the USA, it would be the disruptive left who combats white supremacy not your camp; because china understands the material reality that makes social conflict move or stagnate effectively. There's a reason the DHS has the race aware marxists and anarchists as threat #1. They are one's actively working to destroy the AMERIKKKAN settler project, whereas the other forms of leftists simply exist to soften the blows of the conditions of capital, pacify and redirect rage and energy into the net of bourgeois institutions. They don't actually build on the clearest antagonisms in American class domination.
>>2704539most Americans, brown, black or white are fat, ugly and stupid,and left-wing Westerners, regardless of race, are the least threatening and capable people on earth. You and your ilk are just dorks and will remain so. And when China becomes a global power, it will cooperate with local nationalist parties, while you'll piss and whine about it.
>>2704568I am more capable than you, I guarantee it. America isn't culturally homogeneous. Might as well just be another one of my feds attempting to divert discussion.
>>2704580Unlike you khusra, I'm not going to pretend I'm some Rambo or that I've ever been in combat, but I did serve in a para-military unit. I know there's a huge difference between actual training and simply handing out guns to random retards and expecting it to spark a revolution.
I'm asking you to name any group of Western BIPOC radicals who have accomplished something worthwhile. most likely they're probably idiots who bombed a public restroom or mediocre bank robbers who were shot and or arrested.
>>2704200It's probably you since you seem so concerned with it, and directly respond to the person every time they post. You feds are really pathetic subhumans. Go do something useful, or head down to the hardware store and get some rope. Your tricks and mental ruse wont work on me. You miscreants are from some of the saddest layers of amerikkkan white supremacy.
We are the proletarian people in respect to the rest of the world. Nationalism is our socialism. This established, nationalism must be founded on the truth that Italy is morally and materially a proletarian nation
There are nations that are in a condition of inferiority in relation to others, just as there are classes that are in a condition of inferiority in relation to other classes. Italy is a proletarian nation: emigration demonstrates this sufficiently. Italy is the proletarian of the world.
Strasser and his associates had responded to the socialist appeal of the times, but ‘not as to the call of the proletarian class but of proletarian nations.
As early as 1930, Fascist theoreticians had begun to speak of an internazionale fascista, a pan-fascist union of kindred have-not or proletarian, nations. By 1935, Fascist maintained that Fascism recognized that the ravages of war and depression in Europe could only be undone by international ‘antiplutocratic’ reconstruction and argued, as a consequence, that Fascism was to be both ‘patriotic and international at the same time
Kita justified Japanese imperialism on socialist grounds: "Britain, astride the whole world, is like a very rich man, and Russia is landlord of half the northern world. Doesn't Japan, which is like a propertyless person in international society, confined to these small islands, have the right to go to war to overthrow their domination in the name of justice?" As the first modern nation in Asia, Japan carried the responsibility to liberate other Asian nations as well as to ensure the livelihood of its own people.
>>2704598Oh, so you admit that your radicals are just good for nothings pisants who will never do anything.
>>2704412>>I can't help but feel like people are talking past each other ITT and potentially mistaking OP for a Sakaist as I initially did. Does anybody here disagree with the statement that racialized workers are worse off than white ones, and that we can therefore expect revolutionary sentiments to be strongest among those communities? Does anybody disagree with the statement that a worker's revolution in America must simultaneously be anti-racist and anti-colonial?Highlighting this as a big fuck you to the feds diversion tactics against me. This is what happens when you spend 15+ years fighting white supremacy through active organizing. They would deport me if they could but I am LEGAL as fuck. You get a target on your back greater than the leftist who ignores race because this is the most sound approach to exploiting the contradictions of AMERIKKKAN society. If any of you refuse to answer these questions, than I already see what the answer is; you are racists, complacent, and possibly federal / white power infiltrators.
>>270461278f6dfddf18eb9a13😜😘😉🥵9abf71cc3b3d375ea38f65d5d0df992b54c😜😘😉🥵😏
>>2704586>>2703517same exact guy btw
>>2704673>same exact guy btwGiven that they're both AI spammers, I'm 100% they're either the same person or working together. It's the most blatant raid and the mods are doing absolutely nothing about this.
>>2704679>AI spammersI chalked it up too stimposting but that makes sense as well like who actually has the time to type up all this bs
>>2704686>I chalked it up too stimposting but that makes sense as well like who actually has the time to type up all this bsIt's literally AI. I've caught them dead-to-rights:
>>2703617>>2704645 >>2704679Yap, and contiunue to dogpile; it will all be fruitless against any real efforts. In the leftist organizing base, in the hoods, in any actual center of viable praxis, you are outnumbered. You white fossils can do nothing about the coming storm that the oppressed will release upon the structures of white supremacy and all your efforts to thwart generalized leftist engagement with this will be swiftly nullified. We are phasing nearer and nearer each day. You engage in nothing revolutionary, and you will be nowhere to be found in the struggle against the amerikkkan white supremacist reactionary forces of the DHS and racist settler apparatus. You are more likely to be found amongst the ranks of the reactionary forces of the amerikkkan police and ICE themselves. Your settler colonialism's time in the sun was much like Israels, which is why there is so much allegiance between the white israeli and the white amerikkkan. Though now, through the longstanding efforts of the people and the inability of the state to map the distributed vanguard, we will soon view these colonial states as blips in history; as a short quick rise to the top of settler colonialism, with a rapid swift decline to nothingness.
Your banter will not change the course of history; sit back and watch. You will be a mere observer, not a mover. If you attempt to thwart the fight against the racial colonial system, you will be dealt with in the fashion that enemies are dealt with. So I suggest staying indoors when the whirlwind of racial/class social rupture becomes more than apparent again.
>>2704539>The Black struggle against police power You don't take over a state by simply fighting local police.
>The Indigenous struggle for land returnLand return is not communist. Full stop. It's a pointless goal when the all the land will be owned by all the workers collectively.
>That is leadershipLeadership to lead where exactly? Nothing resulted from this and once again you seem to have been overawed by local
>You don't think there's networks of privilege, and racism in American business unions? Unions as an organizing tool for workers have problems all over the world. Blaming the failures of this organizational tool on white people is nearsighted and ignores the larger world.
>ou invoke china, as if this discussion and method I speak on would make sense to apply there.You don't think China has ethnic minorities? However unlike you, they didn't focus on how the CPC needed Zhuang leadership because of the Han Chinese supremacy, instead they focused on the peasantry and proles as classes. China made progress for the entire class and that includes the ethnic minorities in that class. You on the other hand put identity groups above class. That is backwards.
>>2704726You are too uneducated about race and colonialism to even have a serious conversation with. Go read a book. I linked plenty. If you aren't willing, then before you think of typing, instead slam your forehead against a wall.
>>laming the failures of this organizational tool on white people is nearsightedthe structures of white supremacy being viewed as an abstraction, and not being included in analysis is the sign of poor materialism.
>>You don't think China has ethnic minorities? The USA is a settler colonial state. Settler states, their logic, and all the social relations they reproduce need to be attacked and destroyed. If you can't agree with this, you are not a communist.
>>You don't take over a state by simply fighting local policewhite boy who has never faced police violence, or been attacked by police tells people defending themselves against local police violence isn't a real strategy. Chronically indoor people telling outdoor people how to defend themselves and their communities is pathetic. oink oink oink piggy. Next you will say "look im not pro ICE, but starting trouble and getting in their way is not good praxis". Be weary of anyone slyly implying self-defense employed by those who face state violence isn't preferred, no matter how they paint it politically or ideally; the person who does this, like a cop, is an enemy of the worker.
>>2704728>Nazi race war rhetoric but POC anarkiddie flavorStrategically speaking it's really not the best idea for smaller ethnic groups to mindlessly attack larger ethnic groups. Historically it rarely works out to the smaller ethnic group's favor.
With communism and class politics you at least have a chance to share the world as equals.
>>2704751>the structures of white supremacy being viewed as an abstraction, and not being included in analysis is the sign of poor materialism. So the failure of Unionism around the world in every single modern country is because white supremacy and not the failure of Union form itself?
>Settler states, their logic, and all the social relations they reproduce need to be attacked and destroyed. If you can't agree with this, you are not a communist.Settler colonialism happened in the ancient world thousands of years before capitalism. Once again you confuse Capitalism's use of colonialism and race for something inherent to Capitalism itself.
>people defending themselves against local police violence isn't a real strategy.It's a real strategy. But it isn't a winning strategy for the goal of taking over the state.
>>2704760>>So the failure of Unionism around the world in every single modern country is because white supremacy and not the failure of Union form itself?No. Though, white supremacy does exist and reproduce within the structure of the union, the same way liberalism does. In history The American Federation of Labor under Gomper explicitly organized on a racially exclusive basis, treating white skilled labor as a privileged stratum requiring protection from "cheap" non white competition. This was not incidental prejudice but strategic class collaboration; white workers received higher wages, better conditions, and craft autonomy in exchange for policing the color line. The purges of any serious leftist from labor during the red scare further embedded this structure of white supremacy within union culture. It's been changing, and shifting the other way a bit which is why i bring up Minneapolis as an example.
>>Settler colonialism happened in the ancient world thousands of years before capitalismYup we know settler colonialism predates capitalism. The ancient Israelites in Canaan, the Greeks in Magna Graecia, the Romans in Gaul all practiced territorial displacement and population replacement or assimilation. This is not news to anyone who has read their Brenner or Wolfe.
The question here is not whether settler colonialism existed before capitalism but whether the specific form of settler colonialism that constituted the United States and that continues to structure its political economy can be understood apart from the capitalist system of which it was an integral component. The English colonization of North America was not at all a replication of ancient empire practices. It was capitalist from its very inception. You need to read more history in relation to the Americas.
>>It's a real strategy. But it isn't a winning strategy for the goal of taking over the state
Never said it was, but you also need to realize how dispersed and vast the USA is. The USA's state level of governance and large degree of varying cultural and regional divisions could potentially offer approaches to this that would not be viable in a place like Germany. Ie; regional and local conflicts can lead to a situation like Catalonia / spain. An entirely different and long topic.
>>2704760>It's a real strategy. But it isn't a winning strategy for the goal of taking over the state.Hold on a sec, anon, but I've a nitpick here. Isn't the goal to smash the state? To replace it with proletarian state power?
I've also noticed the term "strategy" thrown around an awful lot and I think in the tossing, it's got all jumbled up. Defence against state forces is a
part of a wider strategy of dual power construction. Direct confrontation with state forces is not useful in isolation but what makes it useful is when it's integrated into a wider program, even if that looks like analysis of the incident after the fact. Confrontation with state forces must be part of a strategy but not the whole strategy alone.
>>2704777Trips wasted on IdPol. How regrettable.
>>2704777 >>2704777
The answer is to get rid of white as a category and remake them into the Germans, English, Irish, Italian, and Polish their ancestors came as. Rediscover themselves and gain a cultural heritage that doesn’t depend entirely on antiblackness.
>>2704779In Maoist (as in Marxist Leninist Maoist) terms, the global proletariat is in a strategic defensive position, it’s just not at the level of organization needed to go on the offensive yet. Not just defense, but visible defense, proving yourself to the people you’re trying to recruit is how you build to the point of parity and eventually takeover of the state. If I have butchered MLM theory please correct me.
>>2704723>>2703523same exact person btw too lazy to bait without AI apparently
>>2704773>whether the specific form of settler colonialism that constituted the United States and that continues to structure its political economy can be understood apart from the capitalist system of which it was an integral component.Ok. What I'm saying is it's not integral to capitalism itself. If you decolonize the world, split up the working class into billions of ethnic groups with their own little languages, the world would remain capitalist. What is even the point besides empowering local elites who get to dominate their own little ethnic group?
>It was capitalist from its very inception. And? This changes nothing.
>>2704777>White is not a larger ethnic group and they’re soft and delicate. If they are so weak then what are you even complaining about?
>>2704779>Isn't the goal to smash the state? To replace it with proletarian state power? That is the Leninist rhetoric. However if a state is the violent governing power of a people when you "smash and replace" a state you actually just take it over. Orthodox MLs might disagree with this view tho.
>Germans, English, Irish, Italian, and Polish their ancestors came as.Why stop at the newest nations? Why not rediscover being Goths, Anglos, Celts, and Romans? In fact, whites must RETVRN to Africa.
>>2704799Whatever formerly white people adopt is their business as long as they don’t do racism and colonialism and capitalism again
>>2704808You replied quick, but not quick enough. Almost on an instant, as if it's your goal to wait. You feds are pathetic. Really pathetic. The distributed vanguard will never die.
>>2704811>>2703523same exact person btw
>>2704811Please don’t let any idiot here demoralize you the opening post and follow ups are some of the only ideological clarity I’ve seen in this dumpster fire
>>2704799OP isn't advocating for this though.
>>2704785>Not just defense, but visible defense, proving yourself to the people you’re trying to recruit is how you build to the point of parity.Well, you gotta be smart about it, right? Fighting for its own sake rarely gets anyone anywhere. Sometimes fighting just proves how bad you are at fighting and that only helps the enemy. Don't be me wrong, all power to the people shooting back, but the enemy can employ recon by fire and then they're
looking for those shots.
>>2704799>That is the Leninist rhetoric. However if a state is the violent governing power of a people when you "smash and replace" a state you actually just take it over. Orthodox MLs might disagree with this view tho.I guess I fall into the latter category. The way I see it, the bourgeois state has its own mechanisms that a prolatarian state doesn't need or want to replicate. Getting off topic for this thread though.
>If you decolonize the world, split up the working class into billions of ethnic groups with their own little languages, the world would remain capitalist. Decolonization must be synonymous with socialism then, no? I struggle to see how you'd have socialism without also neutralizing colonial relations and ditto the other way around.
>>2704816I wont be discouraged, this is low-scale harassment compared to what my comrades and I have experienced in real life. Though, it almost seems apparent it's them because activity insulting the social media pages we run increased simultaneously. They've also sent multiple people to entrap us, with "so what's next, (illegal act)?". They really are low autism score, and are only advantaged due to their endless resources; they are not very capable as individuals. That's not to say every hater is a fed, but I know the language and approaches feds take, so if the shoe fits, you might as well be.
Any leftist organizations or individuals that isn't in support of a direct antagonism towards racist federal and local apparatuses of the US government ARE FEDERAL AGENTS AND COPS!!!!!
This is how you treat them in person yall!!
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1qfvyy7/federal_agents_caught_imbedding_their_selves/ >>2704825>>2703523we ALL know your the same guy PAL
>>2704830FEDERAL AGENTS HAVE SMALL DICKS
>>2704834>>2703517not only are these ppl the same exact person there a confirmed crakkker with no gun until they post wallsocket lmao
>>2704804I'm trying to point out the absurdity of going backwards just a few steps (nations) in group identity but not going all the way (Africa). The question is why don't supposed leftists want white identity go to being part of a single Human Race? Instead they give the same rhetoric as right-wing nationalists and want them to turn back the clock a hundred years.
>>2704819>Decolonization must be synonymous with socialism then, no? No, because decolonization has extra cultural connotations, not just economic. Decolonization advocates will literally say the scientific method is bad because European colonizers introduced it. Look up "indigenous ways of knowing" to see what I'm talking about. It's mostly used as a way to sneak in reactionary ethnonationalist thinking into otherwise left leaning groups.
>>2704835COME TRY ME. I FUCKING DARE YOU.
Any leftist organizations or individuals that isn't in support of a direct antagonism towards racist federal and local apparatuses of the US government ARE FEDERAL AGENTS AND COPS!!!!! Defy them, remove them.
This is how you treat them in person yall!!
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1qfvyy7/federal_agents_caught_imbedding_their_selves/>>2704840you dont have any guns crakkker lmao you not on shit and not in any org /pol/yp lmao
>>2704836>No, because decolonization has extra cultural connotations, not just economic.That's not
nessecarily a negative, is it? I get the reactionary obscurantism in alot of the marketing around the term "decolonization" but there is some worth in identifying the superstructural elements of colonization that need combatting.
>>2704841>Any leftist organizations or individuals that isn't in support of a direct antagonism towards racist federal and local apparatuses of the US government ARE FEDERAL AGENTS AND COPS!!What about conditional support or implied support? Not everyone is in the position to paint a target on themselves. Fedjacketing everyone who isn't going full Dorner can erode a persons strategic acumen.
>>2704846>That's not nessecarily a negative, is it?Not necessarily all of it is a negative. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't blindly obey a philosophy that doesn't care for achieving communism and actively sabotages it. Just because some things in decolonization are ok doesn't mean we should pointlessly divide the working class by overly emphasizing racial and ethnic differences.
>there is some worth in identifying the superstructural elements of colonization that need combatting. Why should communist overly focus on colonization though? We should be focusing on all superstructure elements that stand in the way of effective organization. Framing worker reorganization in only one way, decolonization, is missing the forest for the trees.
>>2704845Feds trying to use emotional volatility to anger in reaction to perceived threats from enemies to phish for information related to me illegally owning a gun as a felon. I've developed a lot over the years, won't fall for this. I now realize snitches will get you to react in anger as a method. Like i said.. COME FUCKING TRY ME if you are curious about if whether or not I have people and methods around me that will lead to a formidable defense of my safety.
>>not in any orgphishing to see if im in any orgs, organizing and radicalizing people? I've been in multiple organizations, currently am, none of which I'll list to you. You also wont hear about any of the networks within said orgs, and the purposes they serve. I've been to every state, as you idiots know; I'm not knew to this I'm true to this. Pro tip; why the fuck would you not change your wifi communications names when following me across state lines? Did you assume I had no device on me and wouldn't search through wi-fis, or was it deliberately overt in a nod that I can move between states but I would always have an eye on me? I know the lay of the land of leftist organizing spaces, and organizations in every fucking state and beyond; I've never used this website before. I'm here to equip you all with the knowledge that you are going to need in what is about to unfold; Soon I wont be here, and I'll dissipate back into what we call the real world; and while that happens I will continuously see every trick the DHS sends my way. Your shut downs, your attacks, your trickery, your set-ups for character assassinations through electronic and humint means; i've seen it all. It wont work. You could kill me, and it will not matter; I will make sure I live my life in such a manner that the mention of my name will haunt amerikkkan fascists from the grave.
>>Why should communist overly focus on colonization though?This question is something you must study American colonialism, settler relations to the economic, and the history of whiteness to answer. Right now you don't seem to have a grasp on it. All you hear is "division" but in this position you are reactionary; you are contesting the factual and structural influences of race on material conditions and acting as if prioritizing the most oppressed classes of American society is sabotaging communism. This is the very definition of white reactionary-ism and it is not welcome in US leftism, period.
>>2704882>no firearms>no org>not a felon>surburboid crakkker >not on shit and will never do shit lmao drop the addy and post wallsocket if your really bout that (your not). I also take back what I said about touching grass you should stay inside so you don't make the rest of us look bad
>>2704882>>2703523same exact person with the same exact ideology btw
>>2704894its not a psychotic break OP is just your typical anti-social crakkker whose not ever gonna be about that life lol
>>2704896Heh, I'm just having some fun.
>>2704893I'll be in oakland in 2 weeks exactly from today. Come on and slide through. You can only find out if someones about it by finding them and trying something. Stop talking, it's time for you to prove you are about it or shut the fuck up because I'm not the one questioning that from anyone. I don't need to talk. My way of pressing you wont happen behind a keyboard.
>>2704896I'm not sure, but OP's last post looks like they want to date you in Oakland to find out more about you and he feels insulted that you doubted his love for you, which will be self evident in person. I could be wrong.
>>2704905No i want the idiot to come help us hand out narcan and hot food. We could use some help unloading the van.
>>2704907You could've said that in your OP and it might've netted a positive result but now you're having a spat and I doubt he will be up for it.
>>2704909Yeah because I'm sick of reading the all the same rumors drop here as on our IG and other media pages. Some how I'm anti-white, white, antisemitic, self-hating jew, this, that. I'm not used to this much internet use, you all interact with one another like you are engaging in cointelpro. Hardly comrades.
>>2704882>it is not welcome in US leftismWestern radlibs are ethnonationalist anti-communist reactionaries sabotaging communism by dividing workers. The ultimate anti-racism is by uniting the working class into one group. Instead you want to reinforce race categorizes and then put your ethnic group on top. You are fascist.
>>2704882>>2704825>>2704825YOU ARE A KHUSRA, A UNLIKABLE WESTERN LEFTIST AND A DORK, your fat ugly, fat and stupid and you won't do anything, revolution if it will come from some intelligent Army officer whose smart enough to work with china and appeal to the masses, khusra's like will piss and whine like the pathetic dorks you are
>>2704919
>t. khusra randi
>>2704916>>2704914so what I'm hearing is, that mutual aid and community work is good; but when it's being done by a group of comrades who's main focus is attacking the structures of white supremacy in relation to capital, then it becomes uncomfortable? This is no different than the Israeli who cant even hear the word "palestine" without turning to clear signs of mental illness; that's because the mentality whiteness and zionism creates is essentially a form of mental illness; which again is why the modern settler colonial states LOVE Israel.
Look, I may be forcing my experience, through the lens of my individual life on a lot of you all. It's very well that a lot of you live in completely white areas, and those areas require organizing frameworks outside of my specialty. Approaching white people on the race issue is very hard; but we CAN NOT let socialism become some white rights movement (US anarchism in the 60s 70s, cough cough), we cannot let the colonial social relations continue to reproduce themselves. The main goal is how can you organize in your mostly white areas, in a way that ATTACKS racism. The main FUCKING LEVVI holding up american's capitalist system is racism; you cannot organize the working class in a revolutionary manner if that racism is not attack and made null through an educated white worker who refuses to betray his fellow workers for societal concession and privileges. If you are not willing to address this, then you are a white reactionary and will be treated as such.
>>The ultimate anti-racism is by uniting the working class into one groupwhich is what white supremacy, privilege and settler colonial relations prevent. Listen, learn, read.
>>2704922>which is what white supremacy, privilege and settler colonial relations prevent. Your entire plan is to henpeck people into what exactly? Seems to me you just want light skinned people to ceremonially bow at dark skinned people's feet. And what does this ceremonial and ritualistic reversal of white supremacy and privilege have to do with workers taking over the state and instituting communism? Your entire philosophy is to humiliate the current dominate ethnic group and put yourself on top. Which has nothing to do with uniting the working class to create communism. You are just hoping to use communism's skin to fool enough people into switching out landlords.
>>2703703>Yes, but cuba wasnt a settler state.Cuba rapidly transformed into a settler state after the Spanish American war. The richest people in Cuba were American settlers who successfully created a client states in Cuba after the war. The Spanish model of an extractive state didn't survive American victory. Puerto Rico is still an American settler state in which American settlers are the minority that controls the island's wealth.
>>2704922this what im talking about OP your idea of attacking white supremacy is reposting an NGO libs book and then accusing ppl of some unrelated shit like israel support its just a more verbose leninhat posting, I've spent my entire life as a renter and wage-laborer in nonwhite neighborhoods and am tired of the constant deluge of dipshits on this board demanding I have to follow there exact ideal of the vanguard party that exists in the solely peoples republic of there mindpalace especially when its just rehashed new left talking points pretending to be new.
Fell for the bait lmao
>>2704941
So what ur saying is that ur a Hebrew sage?
>>2704941
Hey randi ke bache, I ask you do any of these groups that you keep praising actually have done something other then bitch and whine in academic
>>2704922 (You)
A lot of the issues today, is from the failures of white radicals to organize white people, to educate them. There is an apparent disconnect between white leftist intellectuals and the white proletariat they nominally seek to organize. This disjuncture cannot be understood merely as leftist tactical error, but rather as a structural positionality within academia. A significant body of white radical practice costantly exhibits what I call vicarious radicalism; the displacement of organizing energy from one's own class-racial formation toward the political struggles of others. This phenomenon operates through several mechanisms -
White radicals often enter Black and Brown organizing spaces under the guise of "showing up and letting them lead," yet this frequently functions as a status seeking behavior within leftist subcultures rather than genuine coalition building. The affective rewards of proximity to "authentic" struggle substitute for the more arduous work of class struggle within one's own community.
In the act of attaching to existing Black led movements, white radicals circumvent the difficult labor of understanding white working-class consciousness on its own terms. They need not interrogate the internal heterogeneity of whiteness, its regional, occupational, and generational fractures, the history of assimilation into whiteness across the varying euro ethnic groups, none of it, because they have outsourced their anti-racism to spaces where racial dynamics appear more transparent to them, where they can ride on the efforts of black organizers while abandoning their own communities.
The white radical's inability to "pass" in blue collar white spaces represents more than personal awkwardness or autism levels; it signals a class-privilege cultural contradiction at the heart of contemporary western leftism.
The generalizing of radical theory within the university has produced a professional-managerial class of activists whose speech patterns, cultural references, and general existence marks them as outsiders in the very spaces they seek to organize. This is not merely aesthetic problems; it represents a structural position within the division of labor that reproduces class distinction even while rhetorically being a group who is vocally opposing it.
When many white radicals do enter true proletarian white spaces, they often carry what we all might recognize as emotional labor expectations; the demand that working-class whites immediately adopt frameworks (intersectionality, white privilege, structural racism, anti-colonial) developed within academic marxist communities far outside of the white working-class's existence; in fact most of these academic hubs are way closer physically to black communities than most poor white ones. This is something that results in a mutual recoil, radicals experiencing "whiteness" as embarrassment and guilt to overcome through "voluntarism", while white workers end up experiencing Communist radicalism as condescension from privileged brats.
When this occurs, there is surely always a vacuum left by failures of communist organizing of the white worker, and this does not remain empty. It is filled by what we might call reactionary counter-organizing; the systematic recruitment of materially deprived whites into white nationalist and proto-fascist movements. White supremacist movements succeed where white leftists fail precisely because they offer ears, eyes, and general recognition rather than condemnation. They validate the lived experience of economic abandonment while providing an explanatory framework (racial antagonism) that, however false, resonates with the material reality of deindustrialization, opioid crisises, and status degradation (white people are losing some of the privileges they were bought out with, check home ownership rates vs their grandparents).
White supremacy does not merely "fool" the white working class. It offers genuine, if partial, material benefits; white leftists are structurally incapable of matching this because they refuse to engage the white working class on terms that acknowledge their specific grievances as whites.
These white radicals seem to have overlooked class suicide, and instead put white guilt at the pinnacle of organizing. That is not what I'm calling for, and I've vehemently clashed and bumped heads with plenty of your bullheaded "anti-racists" within the left. Education on racism and capital cannot mean "teaching" white workers what they should think. It requires what Paulo Freire termed dialogical praxis; starting from the concrete problems of white working-class life (job loss, healthcare, addiction) and working through how racial capitalism produces these conditions, rather than arriving with prefabricated analyses to force down people's throats.
White radical spaces must abandon the moral economy of anti-racism wherein the goal is to demonstrate how militantly anti-racist you are and instead embrace a strategic yet militant anti racism oriented toward actually shifting material power relations. This requires tolerating the discomfort of organizing among those who may hold retrograde views, with the understanding that political transformation emerges through struggle, years of education, not some spreading of your gospel.
https://libcom.org/article/amilcar-cabrals-theory-class-suicide-and-revolutionary-socialism-tom-meisenheldertl;dr I am more than aware that people who hold my ideas and conclusions on race, when white, can be at risk for some very horrible praxis when it comes to organizing poor white folk, and in part this is why we are in a situation where it seems like white poor people have been pushed right.
>>2704944Which groups, and where?
>>2704947Any western BIPOC that you fetishize doing anything worthwhile you ugly randi
>>2704954How often do you post about anything other than race? If ur the trandi in the pic it looks like your American experience is fairly recent. You should reconsider your effort to reeducate those who are beneath you, it's obviously a futile endeavor.
>>2704945>These white radicals seem to have overlooked class suicide, and instead put white guilt at the pinnacle of organizing. I don't think this is just a white radical thing. It seems to me that the whole western "left activist" sphere is an industrial grade guilt factory, an assembly line of shame projection without much force behind it.
>>2704954Mate, I think most of the flak you're getting is people mistaking your anti-whiteness/white supremacy position for an anti-white
people position. Appearing to use the term "white", "whitey' etc as moral budgeons certainly won't help anything.
>>2704937>demanding I have to follow there exact ideal of the vanguard party Has OP presented such an ideal? This far it seems like broad strokes and discussion on strategy as opposed to specific tactics or operational structures.
i have uyghur fatigue
>>2704954So jack shit, well khusra you really did prove what everyone knew about you
>>2704954> I thought I could code-switch and drop some truthnukes here, but apparently this place is filled with just as many ignorant whiteboys as ol my Circle K job in Wyoming.dear god you must have been insufferable to work with. i bet you had the stereotypical blue hair and face piercing too
>>2704963>>anti-whiteness/white supremacy position for an anti-white people positionIt's not surprising, historically, the reactionary always responds defensively when power is challenged, reducing structural problems to personal gripes and societal divisiveness; even in personal conversations and daily life interactions the reactionary will do this. They haven't done the necessary work of understanding how colonialism, race, and the settler state shaped American capitalism. Their discomfort with race stops them from properly analyzing class struggle in the settler colony context. Ask them this; if Israel went socialist tomorrow, do you think that would end the economic conditions created by settler colonialism? Of course not. You can't fix the material reality of class dispossession inherent in the material conditions settler-colonialism causes by simply instilling a socialist government under that said settler colonial regime. The fact that anyone can seriously call themselves a marxist and make this claim is insane to me.
>>tldr these fools think these issues can be ignored, yet a black community cant even get together to resist police violence without the white working class organizing REACTIONARY forces to counter the CLASS STRUGGLE against violent policing and colonial violence. Immigrants cant even have reformist rights movements without the white society moving towards modernized slave catcher immigration enforcement tactics And you think, there isn't a neccessary fight against these white reactionary forces? You think it's all personal drama because you have no material analysis of colonialism in the AMERIKKKAN context. These are the exact people I decry as counter-revolutionary here, so it's no surprise they jump in with such high energy in their dismissal of the attack on white supremacy. This does nothing but prove what we say.
>>2704981>> bet you had the stereotypical blue hair and face piercing tooFar from it. Your discomfort and inability to discuss any issue on race shows you hold allegiances to white supremacy. So in person, someone like that, talking the way you do? It won't go well, so don't say anything you wont say in person online, pussy, otherwise you can go outside and get Deranqued or Kirk'd.
You may imagine the revolution will be built without the white reactionary rising to defend the social order; but that's imagination, anyone who looks around can see a very different picture unfolding within the amerikkkan landscape. A very necessary fight is constantly unfurling before our eyes, and you sweep it under the rug, with an agenda that is not as open as mine.
>>2704978Khursa is a very inclusive term in my country, it refers to hermaphrodites, transgenders, eunuchs and faggots. I'm using it for the latter.
>>2705018also you suck yahud lund
>>2705007>Your discomfort and inability to discuss any issue on raceI can discus them easily but racists like yourself are difficult to deal with especially when they pretend to be communist. In reality you want a racial supremacy system but with yourself on top.
>So in person, someone like that, talking the way you do?Yes being anti-racist does get racists like yourself mad. Ethnonationalist types are all murderous as the Japanese Empire or the Rwandan Genocide shows.
>with an agenda that is not as open as mine.Why the LARP? You hate equality and communism. You are a fascist who just happens to be POC.
Anyway you seem likely to end up the some Black Hammer 2.0 cult leader at this point. Maybe reevaluate your thinking before causing too much pointless harm.
>>2705041>>fascism is when settler colonialism gets attacked>>racism is when i cant be pro white>>ethno-nationalism is when the destruction of settler colonialism is encourageAll wrong. You really think slavery was a material reality of the past, and that the colonial settler state isn't still the objective norm of internal American social/class relations? Pathetic, but not to mention, an idea that will be left in the dust, or directly confronted and smashed with vigilance.
Again, we see your discomfort with the idea of the settler state being attacked and dismantled, because you enjoy a certain position of privilege from it. You are no different than the petite-bourgeois of the industrial age; they were made extremely nervous at the militant class language used by workers. Now you hear that language applied to the racial class system, the colonial system, and you exclaim the same fear; "YOU WISH TO SWAP THE SOCIAL RELATIONS AND RULE UPON US WITH THE BRUTALITY WE HAVE RULED UPON YOU". Your whiteness wont allow you to disconnect from your petite-bourgeois reactionary nature; you need to educate yourself and read upon the theories and refuse the social contract of whiteness, not take pride in it.
It's funny you call me a ethno-nationalist, but I am constantly attacked and called a pawn for white liberals by the reactionary FBA nationalists.
>>2705074You've posted so much you lost track of your own arguments. In this post here
>>2703731 you said:
>North America will be Indigenous-led, Black-led, migrant-led, or it will not beHere you are arguing for only swapping what race is in charge not getting rid of racism.
Also blackness is just as artificial a racial category as whiteness. So if the concept of whiteness was destroyed then how can this category of non-white still exist in the void? You are doing nothing but reinforcing race categories. Seems strange for someone trying to destroy racism and unite the working class.
Such argument does make sense if you are just a POC fascist who is trying to figure out how to keep your own racial group. Using communism is pretty slick but realistically you will end up with Black Hammer 2.0. Racially motivated philosophies can't get many adherents outside the racial group it wants on top of society. If you are truly communist then you should focus on class as a unifying factor instead.
>>2704412Comrade the issue with anarcho juche poster is that they post chatGPT walls of text (the translation thing is a lie, you can tell because of the formatting, the grammatical/stylistic choices in presenting an argument, and the weak grasp of concepts/word salad), they samefag schizophrenically and deny it equally schizophrenically, and when anyone tries to engage with them critically they quote some irrelevant sentence and then totally ignore it to post more AI slop wall or weak gotchas. They're not REAL, this is someone here to disrupt with an AI trained on anarchists (coincidentally the US gov has a history using anarchism to disrupt communism). It has already been pointed out that the substance of what they said is basically FRSO's line, aka it's not new and it's not going against the US ML establishment. Honestly I don't even think it's a fed because there's other obvious disruption behavior here like the "liberal" theme comment board slides or the thread derails with a deluge of ad hominem, demoralization aimed at any OP, and unprovoked Deng posting. I think it's a retard mod trying to manufacture discourse because they refuse to clean up the shit and let the ecosystem heal itself, instead they insist on mods themselves leading board activity, totally backwards dumbasses. So it follows this dumbass must be a mod. No need to engage, just point and laugh
>>2705212>>2705209Both cucks who work for ICE / DHS, who will never amount to anything but sad, pathetic wastes of existence who would serve the earth as fertilizer more than as sentient beings. The world would be better if they subjected themselves to a violent suicide in kirk fashion as their patheitc sad excuses for families watch. They didn't answer a single one of the persons questions and again divert, like typical fed interactions and gaslighting tactics. This new war you wage against "leftist racial extremists" is a war the GWOT wont win, so lay up the keyboard you sad swine. Hell awaits them, inshallah. ;)
>>2705225>>2705074I also love sucking yahud lund, glory to Israel
>>2704970Yes, more specifically the same exact thesis of 70s new left groups that said that most of the working class are now labor aristocrats so the goal should be organizing the most fucked over sections of the working class while planning a PPW. OP is operating on the same level as the weather underground members who completely ignored the north Vietnamese military telling them a PPW wouldn't work in the US.
>>2705907>the same exact thesis of 70s new left groups that said that most of the working class are now labor aristocrats so the goal should be organizing the most fucked over sections of the working class while planning a PPWThat isn't what they're saying. Refer to
>>2702559OP is not a Sakaist.
>>2705915I love yahud lunk btw
>>2706238You're critiquing the weather underground, not me or anything we said. What mental illness do you feds suffer from? You constantly divert, and this was another clever way to do it. Automatically attach the stance of fighting racist colonial states to the "weather underground", then critique that instead of breaking down the bulk of the issue; the funny part is you don't even break that Weather Underground criticism down; it's just a weak and basic response in an attempt to spin the subject. It's diversion and you failed. You will constantly fail.
>>The settler working class in America which are predominantly white, but including layers of assimilated non-white labor is not, and cannot be, the leading revolutionary subject in the imperial core.
This is not a black nationalist position.
Comrades, let's cut directly through the noise here. When people call us "nationalists," they're either working for the feds or they're Marxists who haven't actually broken with the racism this system drills into all our heads. Either way, they're standing in the way of real organizing, and if seen in the field they need to be dealt with and educated.
Look at the actual class structure we're dealing with. The white settler working class and yeah, that includes assimilated non-white workers who've bought into the program (which i said) cannot lead the revolution in the imperial core. Their material interests are tied to the empire. They get the crumbs from the colonial looting of the Third World. This isn't about guilt tripping success, it's about where people's paychecks actually come from and what side they're on when the chips are down. You can't build a revolutionary movement led by people whose whole standard of living depends on maintaining the current setup, social peace, and normalcy.
Don't get me started on the professional classes, the college-educated liberals, the NGO workers, the tech employees, the various levels of bureaucrats. You really think these people are going to overthrow capitalism? They're the system's middle managers, or skilled physical labor that lives rather well. They might complain about their student loans or their boring jobs, their hard jobs, but at the end of the day, they do not wan't neo-liberal capitalism to collapse. Their "radicalism" starts and ends with getting better benefits for themselves.
The real revolutionary forces in the West are the people this system has thrown away; the gig workers getting squeezed by A.I, the undocumented immigrants working dangerous jobs for cash, the homeless building survival networks in tent cities, the trans people locked out of the formal economy entirely, the races forced into ghettos. These are the masses experiencing capitalism as pure violence and domination every single day. The old industrial working class, the violently oppressed factory workers of today now have stable jobs and union cards; their immediate revolutionary necessity barely exists anymore, and what's left of them has mostly become a conservative force protecting their own shrinking privileges; thankfully it seems as if the age base of union membership and organizing efforts is shifting this a bit, but it's centered around the acknowledgements I speak on.
Here's what the feds understand that too many leftists don't; actual revolutionary potential comes from organizing the people at the very bottom, the people in very directly violent situations. When you start building power with the truly oppressed, helping people fight evictions, supporting prisoner organizing, creating mutual aid networks that actually meet survival needs, building self defense for protests or communities with any means the proles see fit, you start building the infrastructure of a new society, and you give them workers the capacity to defend themselves against the reactionary. That's why the state infiltrates and disrupts these efforts while leaving the respectable left alone. They don't care about your socialist book club or your DSA campaign. They care about stopping the kind of organizing that actually threatens their power directly.
So when you hear these attacks, when someone calls you a nationalist for saying the mass of white workers and professionals aren't the vanguard, when they insist we should focus on winning over the educated classes instead of organizing the streets, ask yourself who benefits. The ruling class wants us chasing dead ends. They want us fighting for the loyalty of people who will never join the struggle, who will integrate class struggle into the mechanisms of bourgeoisie social reproduction, while ignoring the people who have nothing to lose but their chains.
Wake up, The revolution isn't coming from the industrial hall or the university campus alone, nor will it be built there. It's coming from the people capitalism has surplus'd, and either we organize them or we fail.
>>2706395I think people's main issue is that you seem to be downplaying the extent to which white people are represented among what you consider to be the real revolutionary forces in America. This is why they're calling you a nationalist, but I don't understand why you stick with this framing when you admit that there are non-whites among the assimilated workers, and that there are whites among the non-assimilated.
>we need to cede ground to the middle classes of poorer countries over some vague shit that isnt even applicable today instead of a united global proletariat because uhhhhhhh eurocentrism and sheit
lol this is what happens when you dont keep the rent low here
>>2706366assuming this is you " The path forward is not the seizure of production factories by a mythical industrial proletariat but protracted people's war adapted to settler conditions"
>protracted people's warI think I'll heed the advice of the Vietnamese military before your increasingly butthurt moralism and self aggrandizement. Still lowkirkuinenly don't understand how anyone could actually take themselves as seriously as OP lmao.
>>2706422>>protracted people's warThe vietcong / BPP critiqued the weather underground, and observed that the Vietcong method is not realistically applicable to the American landscape. This would not be false. Stop bringing the vague arguments up with no sourcing. None of this means that people's war, self defense, and the capacity for offense is something any revolutionary struggle in America should and must avoid. Who ever promotes this belief is a fed.
>>2706428so how exactly is are you not advocating for a PPW despite literally saying "path forward is not the seizure of production factories by a mythical industrial proletariat but protracted people's war">>2702290
? All Im asking for is some clarification atp instead of sealioning and shitflinging but I think we both know how you'll respond lol.
>>2706430There is no struggle without the capacity of defense/attack, is it that hard to understand? Whoever calls themselves a communist, but doesn't advocate for a PPW, is indeed, a revisionist reformist, not a revolutionary.
>>2706443ok so let me just get this straight you do advocate for a PPW just not one in the older 20th century model of Guerillas operating in the countryside and then attacking the cities ala China,Cuba and Vietnam or new left era "urban guerilla" adventurism?
>>2706423>they are made uncomfortable by militant language when it's coming from non-white class struggleI don't think that's true at all. You'll find no shortage of people on here praising the BPP, the EFF, and a whole range of non-white, anti-colonial revolutionary movements and figures. I think you just need to make it clear that you're not talking about some kind of Sakaist thing where people are written off as reactionary just for being white, that there is no white presence among the revolutionary segments of society, etc.
>>2706456Then I think people need to realize I can invoke someones points, or name without supporting and following their observations to a t. First paragraph of the OP, "
The settler working class in America which are predominantly white, but including layers of assimilated non-white labor is not, and cannot be, the leading revolutionary subject in the imperial core.".
Do people really think the professional and skilled labor classes in the first world have immediate revolutionary interests? The labor forces that had immediate revolutionary interest in 1830s America, do not have those interests in 2026.
>>2706463Again, I think the main issue is that people are getting the impression that you consider the revolutionary class in America to be exclusively composed of non-white people.
>>2706472Which would be true, materially. This doesn't mean someones color automatically determines their revolutionary nature, which I already explained in the first couple sentences of OP. Those who have the greatest immediate material need for revolutionary struggle in modern Amerikkka are not by in large, white. Therefore the class struggle will not manifest around this large base of white workers, but instead through the most oppressed.
I mean, I can back this. Please, list me every revolutionary mass movement of white people 1950s onward, and you'll either be linking me racially aware white people, or a few isolated occurences. Meanwhile I can list you multiple forms of class struggle exploding into social rupture from this same era up until now, and it will always manifest around the racially oppressed proletariat. Then I can show you how often the white working class rises as a reactionary force in response to that said class struggle. This is not fantasy; it's fact.
>>2706459I actually agree with all of this
>>2706472 is right you should just work out a way to distinguish yourself from Sakai shills. What would a blockade of an economic sector be? For instance in my neck of the woods you've got amazon warehouses and cash crops in the same landscape so setting up a checkpoint would only be feasible if you've got full citizen amazon workers and migrant farm workers on the same page.
>>2706481>Those who have the greatest immediate material need for revolutionary struggle in modern Amerikkka are not by in large, whiteThat's what I was taking issue with during our initial disagreement though. I don't see how you could possibly define the revolutionary segments of American society in materialist terms without it being at least plurality white. You won't be able to create a category in terms of economic indicators without this being the case. Even if reactionary sentiment is still present among this population, its important to emphasize that this is false consciousness and contrary to their real interests.
>>2706490Your error, comrade, lies in the narrow economism that focuses the industrial proletariat as the exclusive locus of class antagonism in modern amerikkka. This is not 1917. When we examine the actually existing class struggle in the United States, we find that the most explosive contradictions manifest not at the point of production but along the fault lines of racial colonial social reproduction; land, and the development of economic ghettos that populations are violently forced into.
Consider the historical records. Every major modern rupture in the social fabric of this settler-colony represented a direct assault on the class structure of white supremacy. And in each instance, what materialized? The white settler working class, organized through its autonomous institutions, neighborhoods, the police unions, the homeowners associations, the vigilante patrols, the electoral machines, rose not in solidarity but as a reactionary mass to crush these insurgencies or uprisings of class struggle. This is not aberration; this is the historical pattern.
You speak as if the colonial settler system operates parallel to capitalism, a distinct structure requiring separate analysis. This isn't the case. The settler-colonial relation is the capitalist relation in the North American context. The white worker's "fair day's wage" has always been subsidized by the super-exploitation of the internal colony and the Third World periphery; through the localized allocation of wealth and funds in American communities. When Black tenants organized rent strikes in Brooklyn, when undocumented farm workers had a strikes, when black people resisted violence against the working class, when Indigenous water protectors block pipeline construction in Minnesota, these are class struggles. When the class struggle manifests in the form of refusal of commodity through the act of mass looting, who is it that shows up to defend the property owners? Observe these responses that are patterns; the white settler mobilizes through "Back the Blue" militia rallies, through mob attacks, through school board campaigns against "critical race theory," through armed militia patrols of the border and attacks on the farm workers union movements, and now through the election of explicitly fascist candidates to municipal offices. This is happening as we speak in the most accelerated form we've seen. This can't be overlooked.
The white worker does not merely fail to join the revolutionary movement. They actively constitute themselves as the local enforcement mechanism of imperial order to their locality. Until we grasp this material reality, we remain trapped in a web of misunderstanding.
>>2706547>>2706556I physically cannot live without Israeli semen
Even the industrial oppression of this settler-colony assumed a distinctly racial character alien to the classical capitalist formations of much of Europe. The entire edifice of American industrial labor, its hierarchies, its wage differentials, its spatial segregations, was constructed atop the hatred directed toward European migrants who failed to meet the criteria of whiteness. The Irish, the Italians, the Slavs, the Jews (yiddish), these groups entered the labor market as migrants subject to the racism of anglo-settler colonialism, their bodies marked as suspects, their neighborhoods mapped as a deadly contagion against the true white protestant amerikkkan. When assimilated, these groups became a reactionary base, rather than a revolutionary mass; this is the method of whiteness and it's defense of the amerikkkan capitalist system.
Highly recommended & related history books:
https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393328516https://archive.org/details/whenaffirmativea00katz/mode/2uphttps://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/kenyon-zimmer-immigrants-against-the-stateTheir trajectory toward the labor aristocracy was not automatic or by skin tone. It was purchased through a specific historical transaction, which was the assimilation into whiteness itself. This was their elevation, their crossing of the color line, their recruitment into the policing of the darker proletariat, their participation in genocide. The working class in USA was not born naturally from property relations alone; it was fabricated through this process of racial division, through the deliberate distancing from solidarity with the Black and Brown masses who remained fixed at the bottom of the wage scale. And note that this mechanism persists. I have already observed that layers of the non-white population certain strata of the Black professional-managerial class, the model-minority technocrats, the immigrant entrepreneurs, may undergo partial assimilation into this privileged network. Yet this incorporation remains incomplete, contingent, revocable. The settler-colonial structure demands a permanently race at the bottom tier against which the assimilated may measure their relative security. They become junior partners in the management of empire, house slaves watching the fields, never fully secure in their status, always aware that the whiteness they approximate can be withdrawn with ease. Thus even the industrial history, properly understood, reveals not a universal proletarian experience but the specific genius of American capitalism; the welding of class rule to racial domination, and the continuous manufacture of a reactionary subject through the promise of possible whiteness.
>>2706547cue shreklikethatsevergonnahappen.webm
>>2706556>Your error, comrade, lies in the narrow economism that focuses the industrial proletariat as the exclusive locus of class antagonism in modern amerikkka.I didn't say that. I'm saying that among gig workers, the unemployed, the unhoused, and the generally destitute there is no shortage of white people. I'm not talking about the industrial working class of yesteryear, I'm talking about the revolutionary segment of society according to your own definition.
>The white worker does not merely fail to join the revolutionary movement. They actively constitute themselves as the local enforcement mechanism of imperial order to their localityI think this is still missing my point. Yes, white supremacy has led to many white workers (perhaps even most) being absorbed into the labour aristocracy. Yes, this in turn has led to them being absorbed into the political orbit of the ruling class. However this is beside what I'm trying to get across. The revolutionary class in any society can only be identified through its material position, its relationship to the mode of production and other classes. More specifically, the breadth and depth of its antagonism with the ruling class. Thus we must define the revolutionary class in America in this way, according to levels of poverty, lack of social mobility, lack of access to healthcare, education, housing, employment, brutalization by the repressive state apparatus, the inability to earn a living wage, etc. Racialization is most relevant insofar as racism is deployed to justify making these problems much worse for some segments of the population (and thereby extracting greater profits from them). Even at its inception, Africans were not enslaved because they were Black, they were made "Black" to justify enslaving them. Racism is therefore simply an ideological cover for intensified class oppression. However the revolutionary character of racialized workers arises not from racialization as such, but from the fact that they on average suffer from these problems to a significantly greater degree than non-racialized ones. Im sure you would agree for example that the racialized middle class is no more revolutionary than the white middle class. As such we have to conclude that it isn't racialization itself that spurs revolutionary sentiment, but the enhanced class oppression that it justifies. Without this, racial grievances express themselves as harmless liberal progressivism of the type you hear from Black partisans of the Democratic Party. It gives you Obama and Al Sharpton. If this is the case, then we must necessarily define the revolutionary class primarily along these material lines. The crux of my argument is that doing so will necessarily produce a multiracial category which is plurality or even majority white. There are large masses of white people who suffer similar deprivation in material terms, who exist under comparable conditions to the average Black worker. Such people may not be a large segment of the white population, but they are a large segment of the oppressed population. I don't mean of course to say that socialism or the worker's movement in America should be colour blind. It's absolutely imperative to inoculate white workers with an anti-racist consciousness. What I am saying however is that our analysis must avoid trying to treat racial oppression as a substitute for material antagonism with the system, when in reality its simply a factor which contributes to that antagonism being more intense. Crucially, we must recognize the extent to which purely class based oppression produces a comparable situation. This is especially true in the post Jim Crow era where de jure racial discrimination has been replaced with new tactics. The bulk of the structural racism today faced by racialized people comes in general attacks on the poor which simply hurt racialized people more on average than white ones, but which still sweep up and harm millions of white workers. When it comes to situations like that, the interest of white workers in opposing racism is not just an abstract, long term one of it being necessary to eventually overthrow capitalism. It becomes a matter of their immediate survival.
>>2706395>actual revolutionary potential comes from organizing the people at the very bottom, the people in very directly violent situations. While this specific segment of the population are more likely to fight back out of desperation they unfortunately don't have the means to revolt and succeed. They don't have the infrastructure to resist effectively or fight back effectively. At best you might end up with small groups who try but are quickly put down by the state. That's what happened to the black panthers.
>That's why the state infiltrates and disrupts these efforts while leaving the respectable left alone. You are misinterpreting what is happening. These people on the fringes of society start out more individually violent or part of violent profit oriented gangs so police focus on them from the start.
>>2706594I agree with most of this; i think the tide has turned and I already mentioned that it has. We stand at a critical conjuncture where the material basis of the settler compact is undergoing visible decomposition. The privileges that historically purchased the loyalty of the white masses, stagnant yet real wages, the suburban homestead, the promise of intergenerational wealth transmission, the relative immunity from police terror are evaporating before our eyes; slave patrol federal agents killing two white people in broad day are the physical manifestation of this shift, put on full display. The younger cohorts of the settler nation confront a reality unprecedented in the postwar period; wages that purchase nothing, permanent rental status, the normalization of houselessness among those raised expecting stability, rampant addiction, the casual brutality of militarized policing now extending into spaces previously more immune.
This is not to suggest that whiteness has ceased to function as a structural position. The relative differentials persist; the Black youth still faces eviction and incarceration at rates the white youth does not. Yet the absolute conditions of the white working class are deteriorating, and this relative proletarianization creates both danger and possibility. Capital's organic intellectuals understand this moment with perfect clarity. We observe their counteroffensive across multiple fronts simultaneously. The algorithmic apparatus of TikTok, Instagram, YouTube's recommendation engines serves as the contemporary equivalent of the company town newspaper, funneling aggrieved young men toward revanchist nationalism, misogynist rage, antisemitic conspiracy, blaming of migrants and blacks for your deteriorating conditions, your loss of visible privileges. The Koch network and its front organizations, Turning Point USA, the various "Young Americans" foundations all operate as the NGO-ization of fascist street energy, capturing the anxiety of the downwardly mobile and directing it toward the scapegoat rather than the capitalist system. This is the info war, the war of position Gramsci described, now waged through the social media sphere, the campus.
There exists a physical war as well. The paramilitary formations grow bolder. The vigilante murders of protesters, the storming of capitols, the armed intimidation of leftists, these are the kinetic expression of the same ideological operation. The ruling class, facing a legitimation crisis, gambles that organized white reaction can discipline the surplus populations more effectively than the formal state apparatus alone.
Our task is dual and very urgent. We must physically defend our comrades, our spaces, our organizing efforts from this terror. And simultaneously, we must win the narrative struggle, intervening in the consciousness of these same declassed white youth before the fascists cement their hegemony. We must demonstrate that their feeling of displacement flows not from the immigrant, the trans person, the Black man or woman, but from the very structure of imperial capitalism they have been trained to defend. The social contract is broken. We must ensure they understand who truly broke it, and who offers something other than the endless reproduction of their own domination.
in simple QRD terms, think of how distant much of the older working class whites are from the black working class experience vs the working class white youth of today. There's a material reason for this. For instance, growing up white now, in a climate where you are now likely a permanent renter vs older white working class people being a home owner living in racially divided cities and existing during white flight.
>>2706606Not having enough money to even do white flight in the first place certainly changes dynamics
>>2706609Black people (as a whole) cannot be absorbed into white supremacy, you gotta have one group that’s forever at the bottom of the hierarchy for these categories to exist in the first place. For Canada it’s the First Nations, for Israel it’s Palestinians, and for the US it’s African and African descended people.
>>2706612Capitalism is above white supremacy. White supremacy was just a means to spread capitalism. Obama, Oprah, Jordan, JayZ, the military and identity groups like Foundational Black Americans shows it perfectly possible to integrate blacks.
>>2706624Capitalism has only lasted this long because of white supremacy, DPRK anon went pretty deeply into how it papers over the basic prole vs capitalist contradiction
>>2706625>Capitalism has only lasted this long because of white supremacy, Yet Africa, Asia and all the Americas are capitalist
>how it papers over the basic prole vs capitalist contradictionEnglish exploited the Irish through the capitalist system yet they were the same race. Race is just a diversionary tactic.
>>2706628What do black nationalists like yourself do with mixed people? Put them into segregated camps?
>>2706636You accuse me of desiring to put you in camps. Allow me to correct your misapprehension with the precision you clearly lack. If an actual communist revolution occurred in Amerikkka, someone like you wouldn't even last long enough to make it into the camps. This is not a threat. This is fact. The camps are for those the revolution deems salvageable. Re-education requires subjects capable of education. People, who in this current age can see everything unfurl before their eyes and still maintain their allegiances to white supremacy, no matter how subtle or overt; they would ideally be handled much earlier. Much more quietly.
You will not be granted immunity for reactionary-ism simply because you claim leftism. Nor will you be given special consideration within the struggle.
>>2706636>>English exploited the Irish through the capitalist system yet they were the same race. Race is just a diversionary tactic.And this is exactly why materially Irish in Ireland are not the same as white Irish Americans. Go to ireland, and see how many working class "white" skinned people are pro police vs. the amerikkkan irish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gESuHAB8zpI"It looks like to us from where we stand, our people, in america have been active proponents of the oppression of others".
Devlin, someone embedded in the Irish Republican struggle, encountered Irish-America's racial interactions and found it unrecognizable. Fredrick Douglass in 1844 Ireland, met a colonized people who recognized his struggle as their own, and he notes very different experiences with irish in amerikkka. The Irish American of the 1960s was deeoply embedded in whiteness through police work, segregation, and antiblack violence. their heritage reduced to stereotypes and American plasticity. Devlin's disgust was the recognition of this betrayal. Returning the key of the city to the Panthers was an attempt to restore Irish republican honor against its American degeneration, to insist the true irish tradition stands with the oppressed.
>>2706580I sucked all these men's cocks btw
>>2706606I’m genuinely convinced now that it’s physically impossible for new-leftists to understand anything related to military matters. You retards genuinely seem to think that if someone has the right politics, they’ll win in any conflict.
>>2706684The armed right wing reactionary couldn't even stop semi-armed widespread riots in 2020, what makes you cucks think you'll fare well if you continue to follow the Minneapolis model, and unleash a situation x100 more intense than that? You think what, it gets out of hand, you just open fire and that's that? You don't even see the traps you fall into in Minneapolis. You think war is physical dominance, your methodology is dated, narrow, crude and you will lose. You'll have to kill us all, and even then, your pathetic empire is over. I don't see you guys even stopping the constant organizing in LA, Minneapolis, anywhere, what makes you think it'll fare well if it boils over into a civil war? good fucking luck, go crawl into the gutter and die like the disgusting pig you are.
>>2706646No I accused you of wanting to put mixed people in camp because they won't support your hotep black nationalism. Instead you admitted to wanting to murder anyone who doesn't believe your racist filth.
Again you are nothing but Black Hammer 2.0. Hope you don't rape as many people as they did before they were rightfully put down.
>>2706705Most American leftists that are revolutionary, and don't sit in theory meetings all day would stomp your dumb white ass for calling black liberation stupid nationalism; you would be shunned out of most spaces. What do you think those same leftists will do when the struggle intensifies? Sit down, your time is over. I'm leaving this site, and going back to the real world of the revolutionary left, a zone you will not be able to get an inch in.
>>2706707you really are black hammer redux. pls don't rape the homeless like they did, kthx
>>2706710You must think that the next social explosion in Amerikkka WONT be centered around the racial settler capitalism's dominance over bodies that dont fit the national white identity. Good luck if you think that, you are in for very rude awakening. Like I said stay far far away from leftist spaces, or anywhere that gets active.
The end result of """"Marxist""" third worldism is always third world Hitlerism.
>>2706703I'm not right-wing khusra yahud worshipper
>>2706859I cannot wait until one of you mossad agents decides it's a good idea to come up to us in person.
>>2706841>muh hitlerwoah scary!
>>2706713>bodies>spaces>>2707571Idi Amin is probably more accurate tbh
>>2707583If you plan on getting in the way of the black and indigenous revolution, then you have good reason to be nervous. It's not a shock that the idea of the true oppressed rising up scares you; you are petite-bourgeoisie and an idealist.
>>2707403>>2707633My yahud malik loves when I post this btw
>>2707633Bro I'm not afraid of you. I'm preparing for the disappointment of the next failed revolution the western left seems determined to go through. Your rhetoric and reasoning is the accumulation of decades of anarchist, radlib and nationalist thought coming together into one disaster. You are not the only person saying this stuff.
Black and Indigenous lefties, anarchists and the homeless are just not enough to win. You keep on saying you will succeed and point to a few small skirmishes mostly with local police and ICE. But they are not the military mass killing insurrectionists. Look at history and governments have killed tens of thousands of rebelling people. It's not what they consider ideal but it is a real option the US will exercise.
Ultimately both your rhetoric and philosophy alienates literally everyone else. You wont get the support of the larger population who could feasibly give supplies or even defectors from the military which almost every revolution has used to succeed. You are effectively cutting yourself off from needed infrastructure, thinking revolutionary fever and righteousness will win the day alone. It wont.
>>2707659>>mostly with local police and ICEDid you ever ask yourself the reason for that before yapping? What rock do you live under, Patrick star?
>>Ultimately both your rhetoric and philosophy alienates literally everyone else.
>>I'm preparing for the disappointment of the next failed revolution the western leftWho precisely does struggle against slave catchers alienate? The slave-catchers' families,friends, and cheerleaders? The aspiring slave catcher? You say you prepare yourself to witness a coming failure against the fascist reaction's militant force, rather than preparing to negate it? Curious. I believe we can locate your allegiances right then and there. In that sad, cramped interior you mistake for analysis, the left will be eradicated for the sin of offending white power, and you will observe from your remove like the coward you are, perhaps even deriving satisfaction from the spectacle. You are no Marxist. You are no revolutionary. You is a coward, a counter-revolutionary, a reactionary, and above all a settler whose allegiances remain tethered to racist class power dynamics. You sit in inaction, hoping the left fails and is destroyed for the sin of "alienating" racist white folk made uncomfortable by black liberation. He is a reactionary. Anyone here with a brain knows it.
Only a white power fed would be against the left resisting the white settler fascist reactionary.
Both juche poster and sabocat poster are correct.
However the more decolonial marxist strategy and tactics juche poster lays out is fit for the neocolonies of the world and those indigenous who should strive for independence, not exactly a diaspora even if they are racially stratified in terms of the labour market to then superexploit them and keep living conditions subpar, for us diaspora rather the solution is we either historically show the long migration and stay in European settler colonies and European nations since colonisation and industrialiasation, or we repatriate back to our homelands where we come from to live and work there while advocating our radical politics, but the fascists seem to want this.
Sabocat is correct very much, the path western communists should follow is a Marxist-Leninist strategy and tactics in order to gain power, and that the marxist-leninist way of thinking on revolutionary opportunities, on subjective conditions and objective conditions, on dual power and electoral base building for a more eventual violent revolution, is still very useful; that the western path seems like a more protracted one, that must first be peacefully built, not a militancy our of nowhere and not when necessary.
Juche points out many useful ideas, especially with things like how western working class can have a section, and a large one, who is compromised possibly as a labour aristocracy from the spoils of 21st century imperialism, or it even funding social democracy. However Sabocat also points out that the superprofits are more widely distributed among the billionaires, and a middle class is more and more being proleterianised.
I take issue with the idea of the internal colony, the mechanics of it relative to racially stratified labour which is superexploited and have subpar lives is true. But although the diaspora are of the neocolonised of the world and are treated as their brethern, I still don't believe even with long histories or living within European nations and settler colonies, neccessitates we have an carved out land for some "independence"; but yes we have a blood debt that needs to be paid, for example fighting both world wars in million death, therefore this is our home too.
Now the aborignees, the native Americans, the inuits and so forth, have a sense of historical right, some of the people with a large degree of blood right to their lands, which yes should be fought for and taken back.
Anyhow, a decolonial marxist strategy and tactcs is for the neocolonies and the global south, a marxist-leninist strategy is for the imperialists and global north.
>>2707714>Did you ever ask yourself the reason for thatBecause the current left is too weak for anything else. So they need to cling to the current liberal cause célèbre. Nothing wrong with that in principle but don't pretend the left is some strong power.
>You say you prepare yourself to witness a coming failure against the fascist reaction's militant force, rather than preparing to negate it?The Union fought the Confederacy over it's separation. It's wasn't random vigilantes who defeated the Confederacy and ended slavery. Winning is about building up some sort of military force and you are trying to get homeless guys with pipes to suicide charge police.
>the left will be eradicated for the sin of offending white powerFirst, white supremacy is subordinate to Capitalist supremacy. Second your solution to white supremacy is to respond with black supremacy. This does nothing but reinforce the race system. Instead of trying to build a coalition of workers of all races you insist on dividing them based on race and then putting your group in charge all while threatening to murder those who don't fall in line. You realize you are setting up a situation were white people listen to you and hear that you will murder them for being white. They will not support that for obvious reasons. And then you cry about their self preservation being racism.
>You are no Marxist. Ironic…
>a counter-revolutionary, a reactionary, and above all a settler Above all huh? This tells everyone your actual priorities…
>black liberationYou've been throwing this around fro a while now but what does that mean to you? To Marxists communism is liberation. But you seem to have your own very special definition you seem to dance around and never tell…
>hoping the left failsNo, but I can see the current writing on the wall and it does not look great.
>the left resisting the white settler fascist reactionary.A few minorities resisting isn't the same as winning. You have to turn a large percentage of the population to your side to have a chance of winning. China appealed to the entire peasantry. They didn't say only Achang peasants will be in charge.
>>2702290>The classical Marxist schema wherein the industrial proletariat forms the decisive vanguard of socialist revolution must be ruthlessly interrogated and superseded when confronted with the objective reality of advanced settler colonialism, parasitic racist imperialism, and the labor aristocracy that binds large swathes of the so-called "working class" to the reproduction of empire.Why? Western Europe and the USA have no real industrial working class. The industrial working class is in China and India.
>>2707777>So they need to cling to the current liberal cause célèbreThere's truth in this. One must distinguish between the NGO-rad libs, the electoral-left, and the actually existing autonomous movements of oppressed working class individuals who belong to the left. The former categories do indeed attach themselves to manageable issues, humanitarian frameworks at the direction of their NGOs owners (usually dnc backed philanthropists), they approach the horrors of capital as reformable cruelties. It's like a cycle, suddenly left issues become hot when the democrats lose power. They support the border / policing to remain as institution but in appearance they may continue their advocacy against its excesses. But the latter, the undocumented organizers, the abolitionists, the recon watch-dogs, the mutual aid networks all operate upon a different logic entirely. Their focus upon immigration is not substitution for revolutionary strength but recognition of where the imperial core extracts most nakedly. The border is where the settler state performs its demographic management, where the Third World proletariat encounters the First World directly, where the contradiction between labor's mobility and capital's restrictions becomes most explosive. The act of deciding to organize here is not avoidance of the question of production but to locate its global articulation in relation to the first world colonial powers.
>>It's wasn't random vigilantes who defeated the Confederacy and ended slavery. The civil war did not happen in a vacuum. To frame the Civil War as the singular moment of anti-slavery victory is to adopt the state's own narrative of legitimate violence, whereby conflict becomes "real" only when formal armies clash. This erases the protracted people's war waged by abolitionists and the enslaved, the skirmishes that bled across decades, the armed vigilance committees that met slave-catchers with gunfire. The Union did not initiate the conflict over slavery; it eventually intervened in a struggle already underway. The "random vigilantes" of your dismissive characterization were, in fact, in history, the organized militant base without which discussions of emancipation would not have been possible.
>>Winning is about building up some sort of military force and you are trying to get homeless guys with pipes to suicide charge police. The fuck are you talking about? So you're making scenarios up in your head, then responding to it? Yall keep doiing it.
>>You've been throwing this around fro a while now but what does that mean to you? To Marxists communism is liberationA lot of what you're typing shows you haven't read through the thread, or peeped any of the books in said thread. Black liberation is not black supremacy, that's what cops and ignorant white folk think. You're asking what black liberation means, but you don't even seem to see blacks as more inherently oppressed than the white settler. You talk of communism, while ignoring discussions of land and freedom. Do you think white people are equally as deprived of wealth accumulation and land than white amerikkka? Do you think slavery was a singular event, that has nothing to do with capitalism? Do you think the racist structures that built amerikkka disappeared, or became weakened? You my friend, need a history lesson, not an image board discussion.
Is this the logic the original decolonize lapland guy went through
>>2707714>>2707755>>2707777>>2707858I love eating jewish feces and wear diapers btw, felt you all should know that
>>2707858>The civil war did not happen in a vacuumSources listed below; This is only some of the activity predating America's OFFICIAL civil war -
>>David Walker’s Appeal (1829) Free Black abolitionist published "Appeal to the Coloured Citizens of the World," urging resistance and condemning slavery; widely circulated despite bans.
>>Lewis and Harriet Hayden (1840s–1850s, Boston) Escaped couple ran a safe house/clothing store; stored gunpowder to resist capture; aided famous escapes (e.g., Shadrach Minkins, Anthony Burns) and funded John Brown.https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/black-abolitionists
>>William Still (1850s, Philadelphia) Black abolitionist with Vigilance Committee; documented escapes in his book "The Underground Railroad"; funded rescues and sheltered hundreds.https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/626896/underground-railroad-conductors-and-station-masters
>>John P. Parker (1840s–1850s, Ohio): Formerly enslaved conductor; made repeated risky trips across the Ohio River to rescue people from Kentucky plantations.https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/626896/underground-railroad-conductors-and-station-masters
>>The Pearl Escape (1848, Washington, D.C.) Largest recorded group escape attempt (77 people) aided by white abolitionists like Gerrit Smith and free Black Paul Jennings, Many were recaptured, but it drew national attention.https://www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/the-escape-on-the-pearl-schooner/
>>David Ruggles and Other Black Vigilance Committees (1830s–1840s, New York/Philadelphia) Free Black activists like Ruggles ran safe houses, published anti-slavery works, and organized rescues in Northern cities.
>>The Christiana Resistance (1851) When slave catcher Edward Gorsuch came to reclaim four fugitives in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, William Parker and the Black Self-Protection Society mobilized more than 80 armed Black men and women. Gorsuch was killed, his son wounded. The Black women reportedly "hacked and cut" the elder Gorsuch after he was shot. All 41 indictees, 36 Black, 5 white were acquitted by an all-white jury.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiana_Riot
>>The German Coast Uprising (1811) The largest slave revolt in US history. 200-500 enslaved people armed themselves and marched toward New Orleans, burning plantations. Brutally suppressed, dozens killed in battle, heads placed on pikes as warning. Suppressed in historical memory for over a century.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1811_German_Coast_uprising
>>The Sack of Lawrence (1856) pro slavery "Border Ruffians" from Missouri burned abolitionist newspaper offices and hotels. Not random, organized paramilitary attack.
>>2707914Civil war was colonized-on-colonized violence btw
>>2707858> state's own narrative of legitimate violence, whereby conflict becomes "real" only when formal armies clash.My point isn't about legitimacy but the use or threat of overwhelming violence that actually changes the social order. Such overwhelming violence happens with organized military force to back it with a very few exceptions. The US would never just let capitalist social order just change with vague unease so there needs to be an actual possibility of the workers being able to fight which means organized military force with necessary mass support.
>This erases the protracted people's war waged by abolitionists and the enslaved, the skirmishes that bled across decades,Ok but my point is those are all build ups didn't directly end slavery. Those build ups were used to turn the Union population against slavery. That mass build up of support among white people is what elected Lincoln and scared the South into leaving. Imagine insisting the Union had to be lead by black people first before fighting against slavery.
When it comes to communist revolution we need more than just hope enough blind clashes will result in change one day. Marxist need to plan an outreach that builds support with the mass of the US population not just count on currently disaffected minorities while unnecessarily alienating the majority
>The fuck are you talking about?When you say the homeless confront the state what exactly do they confront the state with? Here you are talking about PPW but just assuming weapons supplies will always be plentiful.Eventually homeless people run out of bullet and then what will they confront the state with?
>You're asking what black liberation means, Yes, so why can't you just answer?
>You talk of communism, while ignoring discussions of land and freedom.wtf communism gives everyone both.
>Do you think white people are equally as deprived of wealth accumulation and land than white amerikkka? Communism equalizes such wealth inequality. So it we reach socialism and it doesn't fucking matter.
>Do you think the racist structures that built amerikkka disappeared, or became weakened? They did became weakened. Black billionaires prove it is weaker than ever before. Sure it's not gone, never said it was. What I did say was to eliminate it completely you have to reach socialism. To do that you have to reaching out to workers as workers to create a unity amongst them. Why insist on making race the central issue?
>leftists uncritically accept third world nationalists into the movement
>Leftism devolves into retarded third worlders constantly fighting each other and pushing white people away from leftism
Good job leftoids, keep digging that grave.
>>2708003>>Good job leftoids, keep digging that graveHOW DARE YOU UPSET WHITE PEOPLE, YOU HAVE DUG YOUR GRAVE NOW!!
You sound the exact same as an Amerikkkan fascist. In fact what mainly drives them into a stance of antipathy towards leftist movements, is also what disgusts you about the modern left. You share that reasoning of viewing the left as discredited by their stances on race, colonialism and amerikkkan borders. People calling themselves a leftist, while holding these fascist tendencies will not absolve them from consequence when our day comes. Maga-communism is dumb, no we should not make space for racism and American nationalism to capture "large swaths" of the working class. AHAHAHAHAHA
>>2707996>Blacks must be in charge!>Oh how could those meanie whites accuse me being of black supremacist?>>2708032Whites are the majority of Americans, including white Latinos makes them a supermajority. Alienating them pointlessly dooms your revolution.
>>2708085So, when a majority of white Americans support the police, that means communists should not side with black folk against the police? If a good chunk of low income workers whom are white are PRO ICE, should leftists not resist ICE? What if you're in a state where most of the working class is anti-union, do you tone your union speak down? What if you live in an area where most of the working class are transphobic/homphobic and there 300 trans and gay people, do you abandon them to be "more effective" in the town of 10k? What if most of the american working class don't believe in decrying the military, flag burning, or explicit anti-war militancy? Then do you tone it down, and integrate the celebration of american militarism into your leftism? Sounds like the politics of cowards, sheep, not lion. Just continuously base the praxis, and langauge upon what the mainstream views as acceptable; yup that will work alright, but not as revolutionary praxis, more so as COIN against revolutionary praxis. Maga communism is retarded. Anyone who believes that the class struggle needs to neuter itself in order to gain more influence, needs to jump off a high bridge.
>Blacks must be in charge!>Oh how could those meanie whites accuse me being of black supremacist?You think I'm saying BLACK LEADER RULE WHITE MAN. Go fucking read the thread or don't even speak you bitch ass mark
>>2708116>when a majority of white Americans support the policeMajority of blacks vote democrat and support capitalism. Does that mean communists rail against blacks for being black? No, they criticize the belief and the individual person's reasoning, not the race of the person who holds the belief.
>Anyone who believes that the class struggle needs to neuter itself in order to gain more influenceThere is a difference between attacking people based on race and compromising your ideals.
>Go fucking read the thread or don't even speak you bitch ass mark.Ok Mr Bodies and Spaces, you really like to hide behind a lot of academese while attacking people for being fascist settlers if they don't agree immediately. That really doesn't help communicate what you are saying
>>2708118See
>>2704539
>>Majority of blacks vote democrat and support capitalism. Does that mean communists rail against blacks for being black?I'm sorry but this isn't making sense to me. You require more studying on Marxist theory in relation to the structure of race in American's colonial capitalism. BLACK PEOPLE DID NOT COLONIZE THE AMERICAS AND BUILD A COLONIAL STRUCTURE OF BLACK SUPREMACY THROUGH A NEW CAPITALIST WORLD, ON THE BACKS OF NON-BLACK LABOR. There is no "black supremacist" structure and reactionary force to attack in relation to the class struggle. So this comparison you give cannot be flipped in vice versa as an example.
just read books about this
>>There is a difference between attacking people based on raceThis response again stems from individualist liberal perception on race and colonialism; it lacks a material analysis on these things. again, read please.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/678761/decolonial-marxism-by-walter-rodney/https://www.worldofbooks.com/products/border-as-method-or-the-multiplication-of-labor-book-sandro-mezzadra-9780822355038https://www.jstor.org/stable/jj.12250639https://ouleft.org/wp-content/uploads/Allen-The-Invention-of-the-White-Race-vol-1.pdfhttps://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5149/9781469619491_williamsThese aren't all full books. The most important thing is to find Allens The invention of The White Race, read the entire series, THEN read Slavery & Capitalism by Williams.
>>2708116You know black people aren't retarded faggots like your are and also want the police and law and order to exist
>>2708163>>2708116>>2708072>>2708072>>2707996Sorry for seeming so mean, I wet my diapers and my Jewish master hasn't changed them yet
Unique IPs: 74