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File: 1772056886546.png (56.33 KB, 300x100, ClipboardImage.png)

 

🗽UNITED STATES POLITICS 🦅

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Previous Thread: >>2701343
534 posts and 107 image replies omitted.

>>2706451
>>2706460
we live in a doomed world where fascoids won and MLoids are too busy not even purging each other but impotently yelling at each other on the gayest type of forum

>>2706460
>Pinochet was not fascist. He was a neoliberal
Hitler walked so Pinochet could run

>>2706460
NTA, but Pinochet was a right wing populist, conservative, nationalistic, a free market neoliberal, and an oppressive dictator who kidnapped tortured and murdered communists and socialists.
What exactly is your definition of fascism? He certain meets the pop culture definition of the term "fascist" if not the technical definition.

>>2706460
correct. he was a dengist.

>>2706460
>Pinochet was not fascist. He was a neoliberal who favored foreign interests over domestic ones.
Completely meaningless distinction. Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of finance capital, and this accurately describes Pinochet's regime.
>You don't even understand what fascism is, no wonder you favor collaborating with it.
Hmm, let us consult Georgy Dmitrov, who penned the main theories on fascism endorsed by the Comintern.
<Comrades, the development of the united front of joint struggle of the Communist and Social-Democratic workers against fascism and the offensive of capital also brings to the fore the question of political unity, of a single political mass party of the working class. The Social Democratic workers are becoming more and more convinced by experience that the struggle against the class enemy demands unity of political leadership, inasmuch as duality in leadership impedes the further development and reinforcement of the joint struggle of the working class.
<The interests of the class struggle of the proletariat and the success of the proletarian revolution make it imperative that there be a single party of the proletariat in each country. Of course, it is not so easy or simple to achieve this. It requires stubborn work and struggle and is bound to be a more or less lengthy process. The Communist Parties, basing themselves on the growing urge of the workers for a unification of the Social-Democratic Parties or of individual organizations with the Communist Parties, must firmly and confidently take the initiative in this unification. The cause of amalgamating the forces of the working class in a single revolutionary proletarian party at the time when the international labor movement is entering the period of closing the split in its ranks, is our cause.
<We are for the political unity of the working class. Therefore, we are ready to collaborate most closely with all Social-Democrats who are for the united front and sincerely support unity on the above-mentioned principles.
<We welcome the growing efforts among Social-Democratic workers for a united front with the Communists. In this fact we see a growth of their revolutionary consciousness and a beginning of the healing of the split in the working class. Being of the opinion that unity of action is a pressing necessity and the truest road to the establishment of the political unity of the proletariat as well, we declare that the Communist International and its sections are ready to enter into negotiations with the Second International and its sections for the establishment of the unity of the working class in the struggle against the offensive of capital, against fascism and the menace of an imperialist war.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm

Fellas I'm starting to think these liberation caucus people have the juice. The vibes point to Maoism my broathers and sisters

>>2706468
and that is bad because we should be aiming for dengism. which we already have. so things are fine as they are.

File: 1772165007518.png (1.09 MB, 1600x900, ClipboardImage.png)

Felix be like: Mamdani is fascist but how dare you suggest Pinochet was fascist

<We would not be revolutionary Marxists, Leninists, worthy pupils of Marx, Engels, and Lenin, if we did not suitably reconstruct our policies and tactics in accordance with the changing situation and the changes occurring in the world labor movement.
<We are enemies of all cut-and-dried schemes. We want to take into account the concrete situation at each moment, in each place, and not act according to a fixed, stereotyped form anywhere and everywhere, not to forget that in varying circumstances the position of the Communists cannot be identical.
<We want soberly to take into account all stages in the development of the class struggle and in the growth of the class consciousness of the masses themselves, to be able to locate and solve at each stage the concrete problems of the revolutionary movement corresponding to this stage.
This can't be… Dmitrov is saying that copy pasting ideas from 100 years ago is with no consideration of context… bad??? How is this possible???

>>2706468
Mao is always right.

>>2706447
>Again, the social fascism theory was one adopted by the Comintern in response to a particular set of conditions, and then rapidly abandoned when those conditions changed (or more accurately, were shown to have never existed in the first place).
Everything you say is fascist ideology. You are a social fascist, for you deny everpresent historically founded social fascist class collaboration with bourgeoisie. Look at amerikan social demokkkrats. You defy dimitrov line. Why is it necessary for the realization of the political unity of the proletariat that there be complete independence from the bourgeoisie and a rupture of the bloc of Social-Democrats with the bourgeoisie?

Because the whole experience of the labor movement, particularly the experience of the fifteen years of coalition policy in Germany, has shown that the policy of class collaboration, the policy of dependence on the bourgeoisie, leads to the defeat of the working class and to the victory of fascism. And the only true road to victory is the road of irreconcilable class struggle against the bourgeoisie, the road of the Bolsheviks.

>>2706467
Dmitrov was decisively disproven by history, wherein the SPD collaborated with the Nazi government both in it's rise to power and during the period of it's rule, as I have already proven by quoting from a much more recent book.

It's funny how you accuse me of clinging to an ancient dogma from the 1930s when you are doing the same thing here.

Furthermore, even under your definition, fascism must be nationalist. Neoliberalism, by nature, is internationalist. It is not fascist. Fascism is a specific form of government, not just a vague definition you can apply to whatever you want.

>>2706473


I never said Mamadani was a fascist. What I said is that Fascism cannot emerge without the support of Social Democracy because both of them are products of the same class, the petty bourgeoisie. Mamdani is a petty bourgeois reformist while fascism is petty bourgeois revolutionism. The only difference between the two ideologies is the existence of a crisis to force revolution.

>>2706470

Ah yes, we need more capitalist growth and environmental destruction. If every nation adopts this, socialism will arrive long after the climate hell collapses civilization. The fact that anyone can think dengism makes sense outside of china show's how widespread the capitalist delusions are; it's a weak materialism. Most leftists don't observe things in fluidity, or according to the conditions, they pick a camp, and apply that same campist theory to every single situation and nation. This is idealism, not materialism.

>>2706478
>Dmitrov was decisively disproven by history, wherein the SPD collaborated with the Nazi government both in it's rise to power and during the period of it's rule
Then they collaborated with the communists after the war and combined with them to form the SED. They also went down fighting in Austria in an armed uprising against the fascist government there. The correct conclusion one gets from studying fascism and social democracy is not that the latter is a "wing" of the former, but that it vacillates, sometimes coming down on one side and sometimes on the other. This is to be expected from a movement that is essentially a coalition between the right wing of the proletariat and the left wing of capital.
>Furthermore, even under your definition, fascism must be nationalist
That doesn't follow from the Comintern definition. It's simply the open dictatorship of finance capital. Nationalism is not implied, although Pinochet certainly considered himself a nationalist anyways.


File: 1772165855931.mp4 (2.8 MB, 640x480, world_state.mp4)

>>2706400
Fascism was destroyed by liberals, social democrats and communists who laid the foundations for the post-war order and international institutions like the United Nations. That was good and relatively progressive albeit flawed because it was built around several hegemonic states who had veto powers, and they didn't abolish states and replace them with the inevitable single future World State.

>>2706470
Deng would tell you trying to do Dengism without Maoism first is retarded.

>>2706486
correct. the larger category that contains all those groups you mentioned is called dengism. and it is them that destroyed fascism. and now dengism reigns.

>>2706480
Wrong once again, the SPD opposed the formation of the SED and force had to be used to ensure their compliance both before and after the merger. Thousands of social democrats were purged from the SED and as soon as there were adequate numbers of trained Communists to replace them, they were replaced in the DDR. The only reason why the SED was created is because the KPD was hunted down and nearly exterminated by the SPD their latter allies on the the far right and so the Communists lacked the numbers to actually, physically govern the state. The SED, much like the DDR itself, was never supposed to exist but allied treachery forced Stalin's hand.

When it comes to the Social Democrats in Austria, once again you are wrong. The Fascists came to power only with the assistance of the Social Democrats, as is clearly outlined in chapter 7 of Rajani Palme Dutt's book, "Fascism and The Social Revolution"

To quote:

In the first place, Austria revealed a conflict between two rival forces of Fascism, the
Heimwehr and the Nazis, openly reflecting the battle for domination of rival imperialist and
Fascist Powers over the living body of the Austrian people. There could be no more striking
demonstration of the real role of Fascism as the chauvinist predatory policy of particular
groupings of finance-capital, belying all the “national,” “popular” and “pacific” pretences. The
battle of Fascist Germany and Fascist Italy over the body of Fascist Austria provides a foretaste
of the “majestic peace of World Fascism.” Both these forces were in fact equally united against
the working class, but sharply in conflict between themselves for the dominant position. In the
initial stage the Clerical-Fascism of Dollfuss, subordinate to Italian Fascism, has conquered; but
the further development of events may still bring a change of combinations and the possible
ultimate dominance of the Nazis and Pan-German Fascism. In this situation the fatal policy of
the working-class organisations under Social Democratic leadership was to endeavour to support
one Fascist group against the other, Dollfuss against the Nazis, as the “lesser evil,” and thus to
smooth the way at every stage for the advance and victory of Fascism.
Second, the Fascist dictatorship of Dollfuss grew directly out of bourgeois democracy under
Dollfuss, even more clearly than the parallel Hindenburg-Hitler process in Germany. Dollfuss
was acclaimed throughout Western Europe as the “champion of democracy against Fascism”
(i.e., against the German Nazi menace), and on this basis was supported and tolerated by Social
Democracy, at the same time as in fact he was carrying through the transition to Fascism. Up to
the last, on the very eve of the workers’ rising, Social Democracy was offering to accept and
support an emergency dictatorship of Dollfuss, the suspension of the parliamentary regime, and
institution of a form of Corporate State, on condition of being permitted to exist under these
conditions-the clearest, most conscious expression of the line of Social Fascism. The policy of
Social Democracy, of the “lesser evil,” here receives its crushing exposure no less heavily than
in Germany.
Third, the Austrian working class was the most highly organised in the capitalist world. In a
population of six millions the paying membership of the Social Democratic Party numbered six
hundred thousand, and the voting strength one and a half millions, or 70 per cent. of the
electorate in Vienna and 40 per cent. of the electorate in the whole country. There was no
question of a “split” in organisation. The Communist Party, although playing a role of great
significance in the fight (it alone gave the call for the general strike on February 10, which was
forced by the workers on the reformist leadership on the 11th), and in the actual launching of the
fight (Linz, where the united front of the Communist and Social Democratic workers had been
established in defiance of the reformist leadership, and the fight was opened against the express
orders of the reformist leadership), was nevertheless extremely weak in numbers. The attempt to
explain the advance and victory of Fascism by the “split” in the working class through the
existence of Communism is thus exploded once and for all by the example of Austria. Social
Democracy boasted of its sole complete control of the working class, and thereby admits its sole
responsibility for the outcome. “There was no split in the Austrian Labour Movement; the
Communists were merely an insignificant minority. The fact that so powerful a party should
have been completely smashed is now naturally engaging the attention of Socialists in all
countries” (Otto Bauer on “Tactical Lessons of the Austrian Catastrophe”). In reality, the
Austrian workers were split, and therefore defeated; but the split was within Social Democracy,
between the workers and the leadership, and through the action of the leadership. The real
question of the split in the working class through the existence of a Social Fascist leadership is
thus laid bare beyond the possibility of concealment.
Fourth, Austrian Social Democracy was, despite the smallness of the country, in its
theoretical role and in the high degree of organisation and supposed “practical results,” the
leading party and the “model party” of international Social Democracy, and in particular of Left
Social Democracy. Where German Social Democracy or British Labourism was far more glaring
and shameless in its virtual or specific repudiation of Marxism and acceptance of capitalism, the
corruption of the Austrian Social Democratic leadership was covered under the subtle sophistries
of “Austro-Marxism.” Further, many of the leaders were obviously “sincere” in their democratic-pacifist betrayal of the struggle; even though by their policy they did everything to assist the
strengthening of capitalism and the advance of Fascism, even though by their policy they made
the defeat of the struggle certain, though they failed to prepare it, to organise it or to lead it, and
did everything to prevent it, nevertheless, when the workers launched it in spite of them, some of
them took part and suffered. This is commonly accounted to the Austrian Social Democratic
leadership for virtue and for rebuttal of the charge of “Social Fascism.” On the contrary, just this
makes the real role of political treachery of the whole line of Social Democracy far more clear
and unmistakable. The question of politics is not a simple question of subjective “sincerity.”
Long ago, at the Second Congress of the Communist International, when Serrati endeavoured to
defend the reformist Turati as “sincere,” and argued against the Twenty-one Conditions on the
grounds that it was impossible to produce a “sincerometer “ or test of sincerity, Lenin replied:
“We have no need of such an instrument as a ‘sincerometer’; what we have is an instrument to
test political directions.” And it is in this sense that the role of Austrian Social Democracy is
revealed with unexampled clearness, with a completeness and relative absence of complicating
factors unequalled elsewhere, as a role of direct service and assistance to the victory of Fascism.
Fifth, the armed rising of the Austrian workers, both in its strength and in its weaknesses, has
marked out and lit up the future line of the fight of the international working class against
Fascism. To the experiences and lessons of this struggle, alike political, strategic and tactical, it
will be constantly necessary to recur in every country in the further development of the struggle
against Fascism.

>>2706486
Fascism was destroyed by Communists, the other two collaborated with Fascism both before and after the war, and continue to collaborate with it today (See: Ukraine)

>>2706486
>>2706488
>>2706493
Fascism will be destroyed when capitalism and liberalism are abolished wholesale

>>2706493
>>2706495
indeed. that is why the usa and it's sphere of influence are not fascist. because they are now socialist (dengist) and that killled the fascism in them

>>2706492
>Wrong once again, the SPD opposed the formation of the SED and force had to be used to ensure their compliance both before and after the merger
Right and I'm sure the Nazis applied no force at all to the SPD when they cooperated.
>The Fascists came to power only with the assistance of the Social Democrats
Yes, the SPO backed one fascist group against another because they perceived it as a lesser evil. Much like how the Soviets backed American and British imperialism against Japanese and German imperialism for the exact same reason. Then afterwards, social democrats initiated an armed uprising against this government. This clearly supports my thesis that social democrats are vacilators that will come down on one side or the other depending on the conditions.

>>2706495
Fascism will only be destroyed when Communism becomes the leading ideology of the world, in the same way that Capitalism is today.

>>2706498
The United States is neo-liberal and so it is objectively not fascist, this much is correct. Neo-liberalism is worse than fascism in most ways but it not yet encountered a severe enough crisis to question it's legitimacy and force it's full militarization.

>>2706500

>Right and I'm sure the Nazis applied no force at all to the SPD when they cooperated.


Correct, the Nazis only arrested a few hundred Social Democrats during their entire existence. Virtually no force was used against the SPD at all. They willingly and openly collaborated with the Nazis in order to avoid repressions, because the primary difference between Fascists and Social Democrats, on a personal level, is courage.

>Yes, the SPO backed one fascist group against another because they perceived it as a lesser evil. Much like how the Soviets backed American and British imperialism against Japanese and German imperialism for the exact same reason. Then afterwards, social democrats initiated an armed uprising against this government. This clearly supports my thesis that social democrats are vacilators that will come down on one side or the other depending on the conditions.


This is not what happened in Austria, I'm simply not going to quote an entire chapter of Dutt's book at you. Dolfuss rise to power started far earlier than that. The Social Democrats supported the fascists against the communists for the entire interwar period and actually prevented a proletarian revolution from coming to power in 1918-1919.

To quote Dutt, once again:

As in Germany, so in Austria the issue of the workers’ struggle cannot be judged solely on
the basis of the final stage of the Fascist coup, of the days of February 1934, but must be seen in
relation to the whole line of development of 1918-1934. just as the strangling of the 1918
revolution in Germany by Social Democracy laid the basis for the ultimate victory of Fascism, so
also in Austria.
The victory of the proletarian revolution in Austria was fully in the grasp of the workers in
1918-19, and was only prevented by Social Democracy. This is common ground, and is admitted
by the Social Democratic leaders themselves. Otto Bauer describes the situation at the end of the
war in his book The Austrian Revolution of 1918:
“There was deep ferment in the barracks of the people’s army. The people’s army felt
that it was the bearer of the revolution, the vanguard of the proletariat…. The soldiers with
arms in hand hoped for a victory of the proletariat…. “Dictatorship of the proletariat!” “All
Power to the Soviets!” was all that could be beard in the streets.”
He continues:
“No bourgeois government could have coped with such a task. It would have been
disarmed by the distrust and contempt of the masses. It would have been overthrown in a
week by a street uprising and disarmed by its own soldiers.
Only the Social Democrats could have safely handled such an unprecedentedly difficult
situation, because they enjoyed the confidence of the working masses…. Only the Social
Democrats could have stopped peacefully the stormy demonstrations by negotiation and
persuasion. Only the Social Democrats could have guided the people’s army and curbed the
revolutionary adventures of the working masses…. The profound shake-up of the bourgeois
social order was expressed in that a bourgeois government, a government without the
participation in it of the Social Democrats, had simply become unthinkable.”
The role of Austrian Social Democracy was thus in fact exactly parallel to that of the
German. The power of the workers’ revolution was deliberately destroyed by Social Democracy
in the name of bourgeois “democracy.” The bourgeois order was only saved by the Coalition
Government from 1918 to 1920 of Austrian Social Democracy and the bourgeois parties, with
Bauer as Foreign Minister and Deutsch as Minister for War. This is the background which lies
behind the victory of Fascism.*
Austrian Social Democracy argued at the time in defence of its policy that, although the
proletarian revolution was certainly and easily possible in Austria in 1918-19, it could not hope
to maintain itself in so small, dependent and isolated a state, in the face of the forces of
imperialism. Yet in fact the Soviet Republic was achieved in Hungary and Bavaria; the drive was
strong throughout Germany and Italy. Had Soviet Austria stood in with Soviet Hungary and
Bavaria, an unshakable power could have been built up in Central Europe; the whole history of
post-war Europe would have been different. Instead, Austrian Social Democracy abandoned
Soviet Hungary to its fate, and then, when the White Terror raged in Hungary, pointed to it to
prove the fate from which it claimed to have saved the Austrian workers. To-day the event has
proved that the Austrian workers were not saved from White Terror; they were only robbed of
the possibility of victory when it was in their grasp

>>2704462
can someone explain why women hate cosplay so much when they love trying on clothes and outfits?

>>2706508
>Correct, the Nazis only arrested a few hundred Social Democrats during their entire existence. Virtually no force was used against the SPD at all. They willingly and openly collaborated with the Nazis in order to avoid repressions
This is a clear contradiction. If they were aiming the avoid repression then clearly the Nazis were applying force to them. If I point a gun at you and say to give me your wallet, it doesn't stop being the application of force just because you cooperate to avoid getting shot.
>This is not what happened in Austria
Yes it is lmao. They supported the fascists and then they opposed them, in other words they vacillated depending on the prevailing conditions.

>>2706511
I guess it means you are really into fiction like to an abnormal level

>>2706513

>Yes it is lmao. They supported the fascists and then they opposed them, in other words they vacillated depending on the prevailing conditions.


Are you deliberately ignoring all of the history between 1918 and 1934 or are you just stupid?

>This is a clear contradiction. If they were aiming the avoid repression then clearly the Nazis were applying force to them. If I point a gun at you and say to give me your wallet, it doesn't stop being the application of force just because you cooperate to avoid getting shot.


The Communists were repressed simply for being Communists, Social Democrats would be repressed only if they actively opposed Nazi power. The fact that only a few hundred Social Democrats were ever arrested by the Nazis is decisive evidence that they did not, by and large, oppose Nazi power.

The rank and file members of the SPD simply went back to work, answered their draft notices and waged a genocidal war against the USSR.

>>2706519
Well your right fuck the spd also they where on board with nato and shit.
But i dont think its always a bad idea to have a coalition.
And i dont think the spd doing something 80 years means all socdems are bad today.

>>2706519
>Are you deliberately ignoring all of the history between 1918 and 1934 or are you just stupid?
No, I'm not disputing that the conditions during that period were such that the waffling tendencies of social democracy brought it closer to reaction. I'm simply saying that these tendencies were suppressed and others brought to the forefront when conditions changed. Hence, social democracy is best described as unreliable and vacillating rather than a force in favour of fascism everywhere and always.
>The fact that only a few hundred Social Democrats were ever arrested by the Nazis is decisive evidence that they did not, by and large, oppose Nazi power.
The same can be said about their relationship to communist power in the GDR. My point is simply that if you're going to dismiss their alliance with the communists because it was coerced then you can't ignore the fact that it was also coerced by the Nazis.

Also you keep posting Dutte, but you understand that he supported the united front after 1933 along with the rest of the Comintern right?

>>2706524
I guess the question is "are social democrats boosting the fascist tendencies in north america right now?"
And the answer is no.
If anyone is besides the other fascoids its liberal democrats doing that.

>>2706526
>I guess the question is "are social democrats boosting the fascist tendencies in north america right now?"
Careful Anon you sound like you're dangerously close to producing an analysis based on concrete existing conditions. We don't do that here, instead we just keep repeating a line that communists only ever actually adhered to for like 5 years, while completely ignoring the analyses that produced it in the first place.

>>2706487
>confusing mao zedong thought with maosim (Gonzalism)
ruh roh

>>2706211
>you guys never had an empire

>>2706532
i've never seen that brainletjak before

>>2706320
wish this useless faggot at least the embraced california chad meme he's going for but he's always *such* prim&proper demonrat

>>2706524
I am saying that the United Front was objectively a failed experiment by the Comintern, and history has proven that Social Democracy is actually the foremost opponent to the rise of a real, militant working class.

Dutt was a Democratic Centralist who adhered to his party's decisions regarding policy, even if he knew it was wrong. He continued to write, and continued to analyze the true class characteristics of Social Democracy. As you can see here, he is not a fan of it, and recognizes that it has been used as a tool against the British working class ever since it entered bourgeois government.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/dutt/articles/1958/dutt-labour-party.pdf

Social Democracy is objectively petty bourgeois reformism, while fascism is petty bourgeois revolutionism. The Dmitrov was wrong and Dutt was correct.

>>2706526
The answer is absolutely yes. The DSSA explicitly exists to destroy the American left, read about Michael Harrington and you will understand the purpose of the DSA.

>>2706542
>I am saying that the United Front was objectively a failed experiment by the Comintern
Maybe, but the fact that it existed at all really undermines the assertion that it social democrats always side with fascists, that it is always a force in favour of fascism. If this were the case then the united front couldn't ever have been established.
>history has proven that Social Democracy is actually the foremost opponent to the rise of a real, militant working class
I don't necessarily disagree, but that doesn't make them fascists unless you unironically consider anybody who isn't a communist (or more likely, a communist who agrees with you specifically) to be fascist. Fascists suppress worker militancy by killing them whereas social democrats do so by granting them concessions. I feel like the implications of this difference for communist strategy and organizing should be clear.

>>2706315
2 more weeks

>>2706320
>mogger in chief
>is it two Gs

File: 1772172144095.png (110.9 KB, 292x345, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2706320
yfw you were made in a lab to be the president from every 1990s TV show but some strange woman is using terms like "Mogger" and "Clavicular" at you.

>>2706545
I never said social democrats are fascists, I said that Social Demcorats side with fascists in conflict with Communists. Their societal role is inherently anti-Communist, because Communism is a complete rejection of the class collaboration and non-violent reformism that undergird Social Democracy.

Social Democracy is the anti-Communism in times of peace, fascism is the anti-communism in times of crisis.

File: 1772172449567.jpg (37.93 KB, 320x320, frog (37).jpg)

Just seen the Ana Kasparian "goyim" tweet

>>2706562
>Social Democracy is the anti-Communism in times of peace, fascism is the anti-communism in times of crisis.
Liberals… Conservatives…. are wiping the sweat off their brows. They got away with it again….

>>2706511
who cares. treat people like individuals and you'll find someone into your random hobbies

>noooooo i'm a communist that's individualism


it's retarded to collectivize people when you talk to them individually. normal people don't do this. sorry.

File: 1772173294655.png (3.58 MB, 1800x1248, ClipboardImage.png)

new thread chuds >>2706569
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>>2704459 Vance has the best chance out of every other american politician to win the 2028 election btw

>new thread chuds >>2706569
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