These are issues as to why I think the Western Left will never do anything or succeed at anything. It's not exhaustive, but I do ask why other people here critical of the Western Left, think the Western Left has failed and will continue to fail to enact any sort of change whatsoever?
>Most Leftists are pretty ideologically antisocial, arrogant, elitist, do not like normies (especially working class people) and look down on them.
>Vast majority of what the Left does is ingroup virtue signalling. Every Protest, every newspaper sold, every shouting slogan, every cancellation, all anti-imperialism, isn't really done for a real purpose but virtue signalling and just group activities
>Leftists are holier than thou in the most moronic ways possible, they refuse to use modern PR, modern marketing, modern public speaking skills, Frame Communist and Socialist ideals in ways that are actually appealing and don't sound like a 1917 Larp.
>Because modern Leftism is a alternative scene, rather than a political movement, being a normal person who is charismatic, or works out, or good looking, is actually frowned upon.
>Anti-Imperialism doesn't mean anything or have any goal yet is the raison detre of the modern left.
>Anti-Imperialism never works because the left refuses to actually do anything to put themselves into positions where they have power to do anything actually anti-imperialist. It's mostly just seething and pointing at elites saying "LOOK YOU'RE BAD HYPOCRITS" while they respond "who cares?".
>Too many "Anti-Imperialists" just devolve into vulgar edgy campism. Many also seriously hope the third will will just rise up and save them.
>Shit like mass immigration is only supported because a lot of leftists are genuinely racist against white people and are wildly oikophobic and want to see "white people" suffer out of teenage level spite against boring suburban upbringings. Another is purely just a naieve white saviour complex or orientalism combined with christcuck morality that more "oppressed" groups are more moral.
>Most modern Leftists positions are really driven by peer ingroup "empathy" pressure than Materialism.
>Shitlib TikTok/Tumbler narratives take precedence over Marxism every time. I've seen countless dedicated Marxists purged from orgs over the years for not adhering to new incoherent Tumblr woketard line.
>Young Socialists are genuinely retarded yet make up most of the activist base. If a Leftist is frankly, under 30, they most likely are going to be arrogant, refuse to listen to more experienced members as fuck and wrong about everything. Younger members almost always push towards mindless militancy that just turns off regular people.
>Socialists over 55 have mostly just given up on any real serious change and usually just treat Socialist orgs as their social book club.
>Anyone with a brain, good skills, PR skills etc will generally realize these people are a lost cause leave any Socialist org and go into actual staffing, PR, media careers etc around their late 20s. Same issue that the military has where intelligent people leave to greener pastures after 4-8 years leaving incompetents behind to run everything.
>The left refuses to accept it's tactics and strategy don't work, relies on copium to explain otherwise. Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context.
Been part of the organised left since the early 2000s to Covid. These are a tip of the iceberg of the issues I repetedly saw with near every group, and a vast majority of the left I interacted with.
67 posts and 8 image replies omitted.>>2727191>I just used that in response to the post I was replying to because they were advocating doing nothing, now you're saying that wasn't you that I was replying to.Well usually flags represent your own politics, not those of the people you're replying to lmfao
>Tell me what is the argument you put forth and I'll put forth a counter-argument. You haven't made any counter-arguments to the arguments already put forth.<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls <3
>That's the subject of the thread and you haven't once expressed that even let alone say what your strategy is or how it contradicts the OP or any of the arguments put forth thus far.No the subject of the thread is: "Why do you think the Western left will never succeed?" It's at the top of the page bro
>That's not what the OP is about. This exactly the problem. You just got immediately triggered and just went on your spergout campaign.Idk what to tell you retard. It's right there in the title, which is what I was responding to. The projection is crazy tho lol
>Ok, so which is your answer then?<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsFeel free to make an argument against this any time you want <3
>>2727192I know, this isn't my first rodeo. I don't mind
>>2727075I wonder if its a generational thing cuz I'm used to millenial anons shilling the whole "SJWs ruined occupy" line and there accounts of idpol being used by wreckers but I've never actually encountered this archetype of western leftist irl while trying to organize. Maybe another anon with more organizing experience can explain but it seems like a lot of OPs issues could be easily circumvented by getting involved with Unions instead of some random ass ML book club or the DSA.
>>2726879The western left won’t achieve anything till the imperialist hegemony starts to crack. With people like trump in office, that won’t take more then a few decades to start imo. Paper tigers and all that.
>>2727215is it millenial anons? I see this rhetoric more from zoomers
>why hasn't the western left defeated the global capitalist hegemony?
>could it be the unprecedented surveillance and military and police apparatus that have been putting down any remotely effective attempts at leftist organizing?
>could it be the lack of foreign assistance that almost every successful revolution in history has relied on?
>could it be any material conditions whatsoever, such as our country's history as a settler colonial slave state?
<nah, its just because YOU, yes YOU, THE LEFTIST READING THIS RIGHT NOW, are TOO CRINGE and EDGY
<also stop saying good things about our - i mean america's! - enemies!
>>2727245its not that I dont see my fellow zoomers complain abt idpol its moreso that OP specified they've been around since the 2000s. Also zoomer "anti-idpol" is basically a coin flip between normal well adjusted people tired of preachy libs or haztards that only see the world in terms of different aesthetics and online subcultures and have an imaginary cringe blue hair women in their head they're afraid of resembling. Meanwhile the older millenial anons usually have some random ass anecdote of a meeting getting wrecked or someone getting kicked out of random bs. This leads me to believe my own perception might colored by a sample bias of sorts where I came into the left in the aftermath of a bunch of orgs trying to do 70s era new left shit and failing and not during the peak of them doing. Like alot of this comes across as people still debating this old Marcuse qoute:
>“Underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and outsiders, the exploited and persecuted of other races and other colors, the unemployed and the unemployable“ >>2726879Lenin has already gave an answer to this
>a lot of leftists are genuinely racist against white people because [great replacement theory]where did you hear this? fox news?
the great replacment shit is bs created by the bourgeoisis to divide the public. why are you taking that seriously you fucking brainlet, you are being counter producive at best and a fucking glowie at worst.
>>2727019Low tier bait. Everyone here knows the difference between socialism and higher phase communism and the abortive shit that the eastern block got up to. and yeah, it is in part the fault of the CIA, but they were mostly an acceleratent more then anything else.
>>2727075leftypol is reactionary, 4chan is doomerlefties, what is happpening to the world?
>>2727158>so far I've managed to avoid all of this by getting involved in local trade unions instead of driving 45 minutes away to the nearest yDSA meeting. burger trade unions have there own issues ofc but I'd rather deal with those than what OP is describing.In general the people on the left I've met and admired the most were heavily involved in labor union work as their thing.
>>2727266>Meanwhile the older millenial anons usually have some random ass anecdote of a meeting getting wrecked or someone getting kicked out of random bs.Something like that almost happened to me once and I avoided it by just letting them rant until they got it off their chest. Kind of a hair-trigger problem person (was also wearing hammer and sickle fashion) who nearly blew up the meeting earlier on another guy who didn't know how to handle it, then pounced on me later. The other guy got defensive which was a bad idea. Later on someone else who thought I handled it well asked me if I had ever done adult education (no) but it turns out it's like the opposite of K-12 methods because it's all about being calm because adults get insecure and sensitive about status.
>>2727248>settlersAmerican mental illness
>>2727261What's wrong with Danny Trejo?
It’s because western workers are smug, bourgeois proletarians
>>2726879>Anti-Imperialism doesn't mean anything or have any goal yet is the raison detre of the modern left.There will be the ANSWER types out there and people with a "fuck this" attitude when a new war happens but a lot of people get demoralized because it does jack shit. At least in theory, a union can have tangible goals and achieve them, and that has a motivating effect. Also people have to make rent. The accelerationists are wrong, when people are too busy just trying to keep a roof over their head, their risk tolerance is lower and they don't have time, energy or the inclination to go out and protest something that doesn't seem like it directly affects them.
This is like blaming the gardener for only being able to work with sand, corn can’t grown sand
>>2727389He was in Fallout New Vegas
>>2727199I already replied to you idiot. God your fucking retarded. Let's go through your retardation step by step again,
<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution.Excuses about why conditions beyond your control keep your from doing anything.
<Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsThis has already been deboonked like a dozen times in this thread.
These conditions will magically change on their own.
Now mind you, at this point you have never mentioned anything even approaching a strategy or anything. Nothing, absolutely nothing.
>No it's not, my strategy is to organize the working class into a practical vehicle for political change/the overthrow of the established order. Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy So you were just writing stupid reply after stupid reply asking me do refute your argument, and this is literally the first time you mention strategy. Once again, you're saying nothing absolutely nothing. Just the emptiest platitudes. So do you organize now? Or are you waiting until "the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls" or what?
>Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy Exactly. YOU ARE SAYING NOTHING BUT RETARDED PLATITUDES. If you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say anything at all. But most of all stop asking for a counter-argument to nothing. You have to say something first before a counter-argument can be made.
>>2727441Your ideology is exactly the same as all the officers during WWI who ordered men to run into machine guns and mine fields because “le human will triumphs”
>>2726879the average american would become a nazi before thinking about becoming a communist
>>2727444So in this metaphor, the machine guns and mine fields are the material conditions. I'm asking you to run into them, and that's just suicide.
So your solution is to: "wait for the material conditions to become favorable" on their own? Is that how a successful army would deal with the mind fields and the machine guns?
>>2727441>I already replied to you idiotBut not with an argument
>Let's go through your retardation step by step againIf only you had said "Lets counter your argument step by step", instead we get:
>Excuses about why conditions beyond your control keep your from doing anything.Again, categorizing my argument with a buzzword and tacking on some strawman of shit I never said is not an argument
>This has already been deboonked like a dozen times in this thread.No it hasn't, certainly not by you lol, also not an argument
>These conditions will magically change on their own.There's nothing magical about changing conditions lmfao, what a brainlet
>Now mind you, at this point you have never mentioned anything even approaching a strategy or anything. Nothing, absolutely nothing.So? This thread is about why we think the western left has failed, as stated in the OP
>So you were just writing stupid reply after stupid reply asking me do refute your argument, and this is literally the first time you mention strategyUhh Yeah, cuz that was when you started yapping about strategy
>Once again, you're saying nothing absolutely nothing. Just the emptiest platitudes. Once again, no argument
>So do you organize now? Or are you waiting until "the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls" or what?Yeah, you do what you can in the circumstances you are in, as conditions change the breath of possibility for action widens and more is afforded to us.
>Exactly. YOU ARE SAYING NOTHING BUT RETARDED PLATITUDES. If you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say anything at all.That's you projecting my retarded friend, if what I said was truly so unintelligent it should be easy as pie to make up an actual argument against it. You have yet to do so. Instead you are just repeating the same empty phrases and strawmen add infinitum.
"Heh, here's why you said this thing" No, just engage with what is being said. Are superprofits not used to fund the social benefits of westerners? Doesn't that make them less likely to revolt? Why not? MAKE AN ARGUMENT YOU RETARDED APE
>But most of all stop asking for a counter-argument to nothingI would if you could actually provide an argument. Unfortunately you have yet to do so
>You have to say something first before a counter-argument can be made.Try and try again
<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls >>2727532>So? This thread is about why we think the western left has failed, as stated in the OPThere was more to the OP beyond the thread title. The implied question is what has the Western Left done wrong? But I guess your answer would still be:
>Absolutely nothing, all their failing are because of things beyond their control.Then after that OP listed issues he has seen with the left and the implied question is:
>What can the left do differently to achieve success?And I'm guessing your answer is once again "absolutely nothing."
It was very obvious the point of this thread is to do a self-crit of the left.
>Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context. The western left is doomed to fail mostly because they lack, almost to a man, the personal courage required to do what is necessary of them. If you're not willing to sacrifice your life for this cause, and 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the western left is not and never will be, then you will make absolutely no progress.
>>2726879their hatred towards homogeneous societies/seething hatred towards white people (aka, the main demographic of the west)
>>2727640a lot of people would support socialist, if not communist policies if they were also promised a homogeneous society, denmark is kind of like this and theyre doing pretty well (although the immigration issue is starting to appear there as well)
>>2727644if i were to live in britain, id vote for the green party if we were promised restore britain's policy on immigration (every other policy except maybe nuclear energy would remain the same), and also if the party didnt have foreigners (including zack polansky) in it, thats kind of what i mean
So keeping with these material conditions metaphors, "now is the winter of our discontent" now is not the time to plant seeds. There's nothing we can do but wait for spring, how about establishing an ETA and a plan for the planting we're going to do when spring comes?
Inb4:
>No man knows the day or hour of his coming.
Wow what a helpful theory.
By enlarge they cheerlead for our third world bourgeoisie, they'll always be our class enemies.
>>2727627>There was more to the OP beyond the thread titleHmmm yeah just some personalization and psychological profiling, I didn't care much for it. I decided to go for a more grounded answer to OP's question
>The implied question is what has the Western Left done wrong?Potato tomato, the western left can only do things wrong or right according to their circumstances. Which are the primary reason for their actions being ineffective
>But I guess your answer would still be:>Absolutely nothing, all their failing are because of things beyond their control.If you want a subjective answer, I would say the western left has not been hardline enough, inundated with liberalism and wishywashy feel good politics. But to me such type of analyses is boring, the more interesting question is why they are like that, which brings us back to the circumstances.
>And I'm guessing your answer is once again "absolutely nothing."Why would you think that?
>It was very obvious the point of this thread is to do a self-crit of the left.Then that should have been made explicit. As it stands OP asked a question, then listed a bunch of dumb subjective answers about innate qualities and personality traits.
>>2727664>Potato tomato, the western left can only do things wrong or right according to their circumstances. Which are the primary reason for their actions being ineffectiveSo then the did the wrong thing according to their circumstances.
>If you want a subjective answer, I would say the western left has not been hardline enough, inundated with liberalism and wishywashy feel good politics. But to me such type of analyses is boring, the more interesting question is why they are like that, which brings us back to the circumstances.But we are conscious beings able to analyze the situation and deduce the correct way to deal with our circumstances.
Forget OP, so we've established that the methods were ineffective for the circumstances. What would be more effective methods to deal with the circumstances at hand?
>>2727678>So then the did the wrong thing according to their circumstances.Not necessarily, you might do all the right things and still fail. The world isn't a videogame where you input the correct sequence and it will grant you your desired result
>But we are conscious beings able to analyze the situation and deduce the correct way to deal with our circumstances.Yes, but we are still of the world, which our consciousness is a part of and arises out of.
>Forget OP, so we've established that the methods were ineffective for the circumstancesNot really, but sure I'll grant it for the sake of argument
>What would be more effective methods to deal with the circumstances at hand?I mean like I said the practical application of methods totally depends on your circumstances. People in different regions or different countries within the west have do deal with these circumstances in different ways, if you live in a college town you have to go about it in a different way than if you live in some industrial harbor city or in the countryside, etc. If you truly must ask me to make some sort of subjective generalization I would say people on the left are mostly moralistic liberal adjacent idealists. The more effective thing would be to purge this from our minds entirely, reject all forms of non materialist thinking, but that brings about its own issues in terms of collaboration, messaging, etc. More discipline, more hardline, more toughness, less forgiveness, less moralism, less chauvinism seems like a decent path forward to me.
Imo these types of attitudes and necessities change as the world changes. Though being subjective, it is not really able to be quantified and I can only call it from my own subjective viewpoint, but I do think this kind of radicalization is happening on quite a large scale already, though still a while off from where it needs to be
>>2727389I was just using him as a general example, it's going to be a Hispanic gangster or an Army guy
>>2727655Sometimes you can’t do anything, that’s life
The Left took the liberal line on immigration instead of teaching everyone that immigration is used to suppress wages and divide the working class.
Like fucks sakes guys, remember its not communists who brought in mass immigration to the West, it was the capitalist class. It is the liberal wing of capitalist media that runs the biggest defense of immigration. How did you retards fall for this bait?
>>2728880It was immigrants who made up the communist movement
>>2728888I am from Israel btw
The Left made these mistakes :
1) Supporting electorialism instead of rejecting it entirely in favor of revolution
2) Lost contact among the working class
3) Pro immigration demolished it's support among the working class
4) Cynical ID pol garbage wasting time, energy and destroying solidarity.
5) Support collaborationist trade unions instead of advocating revolutionary class unions.
6) Fell for social democracy meme.
7) Fell for third world "AES" meme
8) Fell for fake "anti imperialist" meme (a.k.a supporting nationalism in other countries under the guise of "anti imperialism")
9) Terrible neurotic personalities. Can't think of a single famous leftists Id like to have a beer with.
10) Falls for moralism all the time
11) Unable to vehemently reject religion to not hurt fee fees and opportunistically attract support from non communists.
12) Support lumpenproles over proles in crime issues
13) Unable to explain what communism is. Doesn't want to say it's abolition of wage labor, money and commodity production because they don't want to give up the AES meme.
14) Unable to put forward any program that isn't just reformism and social democracy.
>>2728880mental illness
>>2728909kill yourself then
>>2728910
>electoralismread lenin
>lost contact working classcorrect
>pro immigrationcorrect
>cynical ID pol garbagecorrect
>collaborationist trade ooooniaaans correct
>socdem memecorrect
>third world AES meme(i) the western left gives no shit about the third world, you are just a malding ultroid
>anti imp memeyou are a hitlerite faggot
>neurotic personalitiescorrect
>moralismwhatever the fuck that means, leftcuck
>unable to reject religion correct
>lumpenprolkescorrect
>commooonizm illeteracycorrect
>no programcorrect
you are mostly correct but your leftcuck faggotry spikes your autism on some crucial points and prevents you from becoming a full communist. i hope you see the light one day, retard >>2728392Nice AI slop, you spooked retard. That's not the typical american family.
I swear who do MTWists always fall for what America looks like in media and sitcoms and not realizing what America really is like?
>>2728157>Sometimes you can’t do anything, that’s life>>2727783>The world isn't a videogame where you input the correct sequence and it will grant you your desired resultYou guys are so in love with truisms and platitudes. I know you hate psychological profiling but you're just asking for it.
"You win some, you lose some"
Wow, thanks coach. What an insight. Do you think we should maybe study the reasons we lost the sportsball match? They call that a post-mortem sometimes. You know that's another of advantage of being in the future. Hindsight is 20/20 so mistakes that were harder to see when the left was making them are now easier to identify as mistakes because we have the benefit of also being to see exactly what the actions undertaken lead to.
>>2729258Or maybe you stop trying to plant wheat in the desert and move on
>>2729258If you don't have anything to say just shut the fuck up you dumb fucking retard. How's that for a platitude?
>>2729463That's what I'm telling you. You're literally saying nothing. The purpose is to analyze past mistakes and to learn from them and you guys come in just to say:
>There is nothing to learn except events are completely out of our control. There is no room for improvement because the success or failure of our actions are based purely on the laws of chance >>2729484Yes because that’s the truth, you don’t like hearing it because it bruises your ego because you have protagonist syndrome
>>2729484You are projecting you retarded fucking ape. Just repeating the same strawman over and over again, while contributing absolutely nothing to the thread yourself. Have a look in the mirror you absolute fucking moron.
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