These are issues as to why I think the Western Left will never do anything or succeed at anything. It's not exhaustive, but I do ask why other people here critical of the Western Left, think the Western Left has failed and will continue to fail to enact any sort of change whatsoever?
>Most Leftists are pretty ideologically antisocial, arrogant, elitist, do not like normies (especially working class people) and look down on them.
>Vast majority of what the Left does is ingroup virtue signalling. Every Protest, every newspaper sold, every shouting slogan, every cancellation, all anti-imperialism, isn't really done for a real purpose but virtue signalling and just group activities
>Leftists are holier than thou in the most moronic ways possible, they refuse to use modern PR, modern marketing, modern public speaking skills, Frame Communist and Socialist ideals in ways that are actually appealing and don't sound like a 1917 Larp.
>Because modern Leftism is a alternative scene, rather than a political movement, being a normal person who is charismatic, or works out, or good looking, is actually frowned upon.
>Anti-Imperialism doesn't mean anything or have any goal yet is the raison detre of the modern left.
>Anti-Imperialism never works because the left refuses to actually do anything to put themselves into positions where they have power to do anything actually anti-imperialist. It's mostly just seething and pointing at elites saying "LOOK YOU'RE BAD HYPOCRITS" while they respond "who cares?".
>Too many "Anti-Imperialists" just devolve into vulgar edgy campism. Many also seriously hope the third will will just rise up and save them.
>Shit like mass immigration is only supported because a lot of leftists are genuinely racist against white people and are wildly oikophobic and want to see "white people" suffer out of teenage level spite against boring suburban upbringings. Another is purely just a naieve white saviour complex or orientalism combined with christcuck morality that more "oppressed" groups are more moral.
>Most modern Leftists positions are really driven by peer ingroup "empathy" pressure than Materialism.
>Shitlib TikTok/Tumbler narratives take precedence over Marxism every time. I've seen countless dedicated Marxists purged from orgs over the years for not adhering to new incoherent Tumblr woketard line.
>Young Socialists are genuinely retarded yet make up most of the activist base. If a Leftist is frankly, under 30, they most likely are going to be arrogant, refuse to listen to more experienced members as fuck and wrong about everything. Younger members almost always push towards mindless militancy that just turns off regular people.
>Socialists over 55 have mostly just given up on any real serious change and usually just treat Socialist orgs as their social book club.
>Anyone with a brain, good skills, PR skills etc will generally realize these people are a lost cause leave any Socialist org and go into actual staffing, PR, media careers etc around their late 20s. Same issue that the military has where intelligent people leave to greener pastures after 4-8 years leaving incompetents behind to run everything.
>The left refuses to accept it's tactics and strategy don't work, relies on copium to explain otherwise. Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context.
Been part of the organised left since the early 2000s to Covid. These are a tip of the iceberg of the issues I repetedly saw with near every group, and a vast majority of the left I interacted with.
152 posts and 25 image replies omitted.>>2733830their cause was right, but they did it in the most effeminate and spiritually homosexual way possible
>>2733859That's not the point I'm trying to make
I would add another problem: the left is suspicious of anyone who wants to join. This happens even in very small groups of less than 10 people who barely do anything besides talking and thinking what to do next. If you are not a threat, they won’t send the police to infiltrate. Infiltrate what exactly?
The left has to accept that in order to grow, some vulnerability is necessary.
>>2734134I still remember a post by a German guy who wanted to join left-wing causes in his country but was rejected every time because he was in the military and labeled an imperialist. He mentioned that he was an engineer and had never even left Germany, and even if he wasn't, how can you expect to win a revolution if you don’t have a single person who knows how to use a gun?
>Why do you think the Western left will never succeed?
I have no bile to spend.I just think the orbit of NATO has a combination of two things that make revolutionary change unlikely:
1) They have very advanced surveillance and intelligence apparatuses.
2) If their material circumstances get anywhere close to perceiving revolution as the only out… then capitalism has already failed on it's own. The bourgeois will just never let conditions deteriorate far enough in the imperial core, because they are the consumer base of globalization. If they can't buy shit, nobody can.
So my bets are on China sponsored socdems taking over with gibs, after NATO "loses" the cold war. Far far earlier than collapse. And keeping most of the bourgeoisie intact.
>>2734337>>2734196Western Leftists drowning in moralfaggotry and "Muh past sins" stuff is obnoxious as fuck.
Also every single Communist Revolution was done on the back of Millitary Officers and Military personal. Would the Bolshevik Revolution have succeeded without the Kerensky offensive having swaths of the Navy and Army going "Fuck this shit, we're joining Lenin". The CPC was born from former KMT officers.
>>2730934What does militancy even do? There is no real point to protesting at this point because we know it doesn't work. Elites do not listen to Protests and especially not militancy and they are clamping down and banning protesting more than ever while the general public claps on like idiotic seals because "DEY BLOCKED AN AMBULANCE" or "DEY SAID AN ANTISEMITISM" or "THEY SMASHED A WINDOW".
The left needs to move past all this LARPY stuff and pick up and study books on pursuasion.
Honestly these books need to be part of any Leftist 101 pack
>Propaganda - Edward Bernays>Public Opinion - Walter Lippmann>Influence - Robert B Cialdini>Thinking Fast and Slow - Daniel Kahneman>Nudge - Richard H Thaler>Advertising - David Ogilvy>The 48 Laws of Power - Robert GreeneProbably the most influential books in how modern Politics actually functions. All these books are basically considered holy texts in PR and marketing departments.
Militancy only should become part of the left once the left has proven itself, built a political power base, and proven it should be trusted, then meets violent resistance first from the Capitalist/Establishment class.
Also I will add, that people on the left blame the wrong people for being glowies.
I've been called a Glowie so many fucking times by fellow leftists because I question and critique so much of the idiotic bullshit I see the left do. I critique the LARPing, I critique the performatism, I critique the do nothing lifestylism, the do nothing "Anti-imperialism" that is really just Campism.
"GLOWIE, GLOWIE, GLOWIE"
Yet this is not what Glowies do. Read about the infiltration of the left historically, go read court cases where leftist orgs or anarchists were dragged before grand juries, The Spy Cops scandal that is currently playing out etc.
Glowies function by going into orgs, seeing the stupid shit and pushing for it even harder. They become the most militant and vocal SUPPORTERS in an org and push that they are not going hard enough on their lifestylism, militancy, Idpol etc. Why not protest for restoring the swastika? It's a beautiful Buddhist symbol (btw this is something I've seen leftist orgs do IRL not even fucking kidding), We shouldn't clap or make loud noise it's abelist! Actually we should focus all our issues on fringe tttt nonsense and it should be the litmus test of being leftist! We should go throw Molotovs at police the public will rise up for us everyone is angry!
How did the CPUSA get destroyed? Because you had the Campaign against White Chauvinism pushed by FBI agents as a strategy of tension that caused dysfunction in the org based on idpol grounds, that allowed the FBI to seed people snitching on eachother for Idpol offenses, which uncovered the scale of the CPUSA membership and led into the McCarthyist trials.
This is how Glowies function.
Even a vice article about it
https://www.vice.com/sv/article/how-the-fbi-goes-after-activists/I've said this on Leftypol TONNES of times. One of my childhood friends back in the 2000s was a staffer for the Attorney General, and he said after Islamist groups, Anarchists were the ones that they most tracked and had most assets and agents of. He told me to stay the fuck away from Anarchists because pretty much every single Anarchist group, even ones of 5-10 people, had assets or even undercover agents. If you are an anarchist on this site, and you've hung around with other Anarchists, there is a 100% chance you've been talking to a fed or informant.
I don't think this is limited to just Anarchists btw, I think most Socialist orgs have some informants in them. In the UK, it turned out pretty much every Socialist group had informants and actual undercover agents working often for decades, in positions all through Socialist orgs often even the Party Executive (spycops).
>>2734337I see turbo online people like you going off about this on one side or the other but I litteraly did activism with people who previously fought in Africa for imperialism and taught leftists military coms and tactics so we could be more effective at opening squats for migrants, doing zads and fighting cops. Nobody made a fuss about that in environments that had all the kinds of leftist you can find at the ideology shop.
Lack of conesion
>>2735341I think Terrorism in the end just hurts the left, it doesn't get the effect from the public that people think. While groups like the Black Hand had massive impact, it's important to note that the Black Hand were not leftists but were proto-fascists, so the left didn't get the blame. The Left should only use this form of violence in reaction, if Leftists are being killed (see for example Environmentalists in South America and Africa being assassinated), it's fine to defend yourself and fight back, but I just don't think killing people has that much impact especially in the modern day where there decentralised institutional power rather than personal power.
>>2735329For me a big thing I've noticed is generation.
Zoomers and Late Millennials are super puritain and crazy moralistic who believe in functionally Red Guard blood lineage theory and have every shitlib tik tok/tumblr shibboleth as basically the litimus test if you are a "Left wing" or not.
Look at even how much Leftypol has become super puritain and moralistic as Millennial dirtbag leftists have cycled out from here and got replaced with Zoomer TheDeprogram/GreenandPleasant etc types.
>>2735365I never said the Black Hand were leftists, I was using them as an example of how a relatively small group can create the conditions for radical change.
>>2730827Non western proletariat are still more class conscious than western ones.
>all dealing with the consequences of the New Left.New Left was because of classcucked proletariat. FFS the class with the most agency is the cause, not the effect.
>>2726879The Western Left will never succeed for the same reason an anti-sacrifice Aztec movement would never succeed. It goes against the core beliefs of their society. Not that the non-Western left has much luck, either, but the Westerners are really in the hole.
>>2735561>Non western proletariatWhether that’s true or not, the reality is that communists and socialists here are much like those in the West, just a small group of intellectuals and little else. They lack any broad public support and are largely irrelevant.
>>2735567They have more success than their western counterpart.
>>2735598more than nothing you mean?
>>2735624Sure. At the very least, the non western communists and socialists are fumbling on their own terms, while westerners really dont have anything to fumble with.
>>2735598Care to give any examples? I live in south asia and our communists groups are literally just a handful of men in the mountains of Odisha who got almost entirely wiped out once the government put in some slight effort to deal with them
>>2726879>thread with loaded question as title>unreadable poorly paced slop>every fallacy in the bookno thanks
>>2735685
>muh metaphysical categories of hoooman nature that are eternal and fixed
the chinese wear suits and hang a picture of a german jew in their parliament.
europe and north america use sanskrit arabic numerals
fortune 500 corporations uses a scientific method of product innovation invented in the USSR (TRIZ)
the world is not fixed categories. there is no eternal occidental. there is no eternal oriental. your brain is stuck in the gutter of 19th century racist pseudoscience.
>>2735740The Naxalites are already much more successful than any New Left insurgent groups in the west.
>>2735779The Naxalites are not part of the New Left. They developed intellectually outside academia, emerging from peasant rebellions and were Maoists in the most literal sense. They fought as best they could, but even at their peak they mostly controlled isolated villages in eastern India. Around the 2010s when the government became somewhat more centralized, it was able to deal with them more effectively. They still exist today, but they are much weaker.
>>2735820Okay and? Still more coherent and impactful than any New Left insurgency in the west.
>>2735826I never said they were New Left, retard. I said their western insurgency counterpart were the New Left (SDS/BPP/SLA) etc etc
You two are just nitpicking coz you cant counter my central point. I accept your concessions.
>>2735789I usually agree with you, but comparing anything the US/Western left faced in the late 20th century with the torture and massacres experienced by people in the third world is genuinely kind of offensive. The political repression that the CPUSA dealt with mostly happened in the 1950s and I acknowledge that it occurred but it was relatively brief. However I don’t consider a couple hundred social democrats getting blacklisted from making movies to be real repression.
>>2735840
Again, I never said otherwise, only that in the west, the classcucked proletariat allowed their bourgeois to hold all the cards in the first place.
You cannot claim to be a marxist and deny the proletariat, the revolutionary class under captialism, any agency in the matter.
>>2735848>>2735840You’re both retarded. You see class conflict from a metaphysical perspective rather than in military terms. The bourgeoisie are short-sighted degenerates whose empires are falling. But peasants and workers will not liberate themselves on their own. They may take part, but it requires men of conviction, trained and capable. And that revolution will likely come with aid from China.
>>2735904Orthodox Marxism died long ago, what remains today is Marxism-Leninism and its variations.
>>2735365>Look at even how much Leftypol has become super puritain and moralistic as Millennial dirtbag leftists have cycled out from here and got replaced with Zoomer TheDeprogram/GreenandPleasant etc types.i hate this genpol slop, and i hate isg but zoomer shit like the deprogram is way more openly marxist than millenial "dirtbag" shit like chapotraphouse was. i straddle the fence betwen both generations and that is just my objective analysis
>>2726879Every single "point" you made can be reduced to
>leftists were mean to me onlineExtremely anti-materialist. Useless.
>>2735365>Look at even how much Leftypol has become super puritain and moralisticLMAO NO if anything the opposite is true, there's a bunch of rightoids posting on here now, we're due for purges if anything
At this point the western left should adopt the ouroboros as its symbol because of how self-defeating it is.
Western society is the problem, all of its classes
>>2726879I recently moved to Europe, and it has surprised me how the left spaces are filled with queers, trans, and racial culture war. I thought it was a meme but it’s real. I had to write my pronouns next to my name on the sticker.
I feel these spaces are outlet for people who feel discriminated and isolated. Through “politics” they can legitimize their struggle. There’s no real interest in challenging capital though. Which is why the topic is rarely discussed, overshadowed by strange ideas such as “decolonizing” our minds.
>>2735819it did and it was glorious you stupid leftcuck
I think the western left may never succeed because of the Samson Option. Both the Zionist entity and the US would never let go of power without destroying everything first.
>>2759419The problem is you're hanging out with the kids when you should be drinking with the veteran anarcho-alcoholics over 50.
>>2759419As the other person said, you want older people. Students and other adolescent vermin are a bane on the labour movement and literally what is killing it (in central Europe, at least).
t. union organiser and local party rep.
>>2735341This is a myth. The Serbian government was not involved in the assassination of the archduke. Even the Hungarian minister Tisza acknowledged this at the time. Young Bosnia was just like the circles in Tsarist Russia. Disconnected, particular and independent. Many of them read Chernishevsky, Herzen and Nietzsche.
>>2758936Marx praised Feuerbach for his "true materialism" which incorporated relations between people. We got capitalists without capital and anti-social socialists, sad.
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